The New Huntmastersbbs!: Treebark Camo!!!

This is topic Treebark Camo!!! in forum Calls and Gear forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 28, 2010, 01:43 PM:

I got this in an email today... I saw it posted somewhere yesterday, too. I didn't take this pic and don't know who did but it's pretty neat! Thanks NASA!

Where's KoKo???!!! [Eek!]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 28, 2010, 02:25 PM:

I've often wondered why one of the camo companies don't replicate the patterns seen in birds, specifically owls such as this great grey. The pattern on a great horned owl is similar, just more toward the browns, and would make you disappear quite well. Take the same pattern and lighten it up for rangeland, etc..

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 28, 2010, 05:45 PM:

Cool picture!!!! [Cool]

There's just a wee bit more to effective camo than the latest spiffy pattern. Two things that readily come to mind are position & lack of movement. Find a place with good backing where you're not silhouetted and don't move around a lot and you can wear clothes that you bought at Jimmy Buffett's yard sale. [Big Grin]

No camo pattern by itself.......even a 'Ghillie Suit' will turn you into the Invisable Man if you're skylined on a ridge & moving. Camo is just part of the package; not the whole deal.

Before Chuck Adams, the noted bowhunter got all sponsored up, his regular hunting shirt was wool with a green & black checkerboard pattern. He did alright with it. For that matter, I don't recall ever seeing a picture of bowhunting great, Howard Hill ever wearing any kind of camo either. He did alright too.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 28, 2010, 06:14 PM:

Very true, and a couple thousand years of nekid i ndians are hard to argue with, too, but having said that, since some folks are hard set to make camo patterns that work better than what the other guy is making, you'd think that rather than reinventing the wheel, they might look at good ol' Ma Nature and her millions of years of R&D as a good starting point as far as patterns go.

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 28, 2010, 06:36 PM:

I often wonder how a simple pattern like a deer, coyote, or a cougar can sometimes just seem to disappear in the woods.

Or how all those guys in jeans and flannel shirts damn near wiped out most the deer and turkeys around here many years ago.

[ September 28, 2010, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 28, 2010, 07:59 PM:

CDude;
I seem to recall that camo patterns have been made in the image of duck feathers and another one of a rattlesnake pattern. I don't believe that they caught on, though.

The one problem with most camo patterns is that while they look pretty good at arms length, they tend to 'blob up' into a solid human form out past about 20 yards. One pattern that did work pretty well was the A.S.A.T. camo. Not sure if it's still made or not. It was (is) a light colored open pattern that fit in with a lot of backgrounds without the blob effect. Brigade Quartermaster carried it. It was a little pricey & a lot of hunters weren't convinced that something that light colored would work.

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on September 28, 2010, 08:08 PM:

Very nice picture.

My buddy wants to buy a Sam's Club special (Timberline) hooded jacket in what he says is a tree trunk color. He is new to hunting, but I think I will encourage him to get it since he doesn't seem to want to buy camo.

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 28, 2010, 08:45 PM:

I have some timberline from Wally World...

It's not bad stuff for the price. It may be a little dark for some areas but works well in shade or deep woods. If you wash it in bleach or too often it losses some of it's color. [Frown]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 29, 2010, 05:06 AM:

The problem with camo patterns is the same as the problem with calling sounds. Too many people look for what looks and sounds good to us under the assumption that a coyote sees and hears just as we do. Not the case.

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 29, 2010, 05:20 AM:

Jimmy Buffett's Garage sale [Big Grin]

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 29, 2010, 08:57 AM:

I wear ASAT. I bought them several years ago. They are mesh and I bought them big, the pants I have to pull up to my belly button and the top hangs way down and loose. It blends in everywhere I have ever hunted. I have had several hunting partners say they lost me on stand, and they watched me sit down. I just wear that and hunch over a little and Im hid good.

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 29, 2010, 09:46 AM:

I really like the look of nat gear no matter what country your in you look like a rock. I only own one longsleeved tee shirt in that stuff. usually wear something different top and bottom trying to break up the human form not outline it.
The desert shadow stuff really makes a fashion statment too!
Oh crap I like it all just a slave to fashion.lol

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 29, 2010, 11:01 AM:

I saw a reproduction German helmet in a Haloween store the other day. Man, that would be the fashion statement of the season! How the original buckethead has evolved in such a short time. When ya got a good product, it sell$ itself.

Camo? Yeah, I wear it but I think it is vastly overrated. Any pattern is good enough, and I frequently do as does Paulsie, I mix and match everything but the socks.

Yahoo! LB

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 29, 2010, 02:15 PM:

"...you'd think that rather than reinventing the wheel, they might look at good ol' Ma Nature and her millions of years of R&D as a good starting point as far as patterns go."

These guys had it down, a few years back, using moths as the base pattern, then they had to go muck it up and add a bunch more stuff on top. [Roll Eyes]

But even a fool like me knows the best camo in the world won't hide you if you can't hold still, and if you can hold still you don't need the best camo in the world. [Wink]

Even a blink, and that owl would "come to life" in spite of the killer camo job.

Krusty

Edit to fix link

[ September 29, 2010, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on September 29, 2010, 03:37 PM:

Here is a new pattern from Scentlok.

http://www.scentlok.com/scentlok-latest/scent-lok-vertigo-%E2%80%94-more-than-a-revolution

I saw Ted Nugent wearing it on one of his shows, when he was on a black bear hunt in Alaska. It really stuck out in the foliage. It might be okay after the leaves fall, while hunting out of a treestand.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 29, 2010, 04:18 PM:

" I just wear that and hunch over a little and Im hid good."

That hunching over is what blew the disc in my back, andy. My physical therapist's husband is a caller and hunter and she's gone out with him and knows the pose. When we eere ID'ing the cause of my "accident", she had me assume the position. Then, she showed me how I'd hurt myself. Sitting on the flat ground with your legs crossed in front of you puts incredible strain on your lower back. Lean forward and you multiply that torsion. Blow a mouthcall repeatedly and every time you inhale and blow into the call, you ram all your guts into that lower back and cause even more strain. I sit on a 4-inch thick pad now and it does make a world of difference. If you have problems with your legs going to sleep on stand, you are doing to yourself exactly what I did to myself. If you already have lower back problems and don't change the way you sit, you're toying with a very painful time bomb.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 29, 2010, 04:20 PM:

"...the best camo in the world won't hide you if you can't hold still, and if you can hold still you don't need the best camo in the world."

That pretty much sums it up. LOL

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 29, 2010, 05:03 PM:

IMHO, Scentlock is about as big of a scam as ever pulled on hunters. NOTHING will MASK or HIDE a MANS SCENT!

If you dont dope the wind right, your busted.

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on September 29, 2010, 05:07 PM:

You feel so strongly about scentlock you had to post it twice? lol.

I don't use it myself. Thought the camo was unique though.

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 29, 2010, 05:25 PM:

I've always believed that an open pattern is better camo. Without negative space you are a solid object... key word is "object"! Any movement or changes in that object will instantly trigger the flight response in most prey animals.

I've always had negative space between my ears but I still have trouble sitting still! [Big Grin]

Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on September 29, 2010, 08:43 PM:

Yep, a lot of that stuff 'blobs up' from a distance. The other prob that I face is that in FL things stay green most of tne year, and a lot of these camo company's are oriented towards brown. I need stuff oriented towards green. I bought some Wally World stuff last year for a deer/turkey hunt in GA, and almost bought some more of it y'day, but I stopped myself. I have preferred the tiger stripe for down here, and think I'll stick with it, although I have an open (very open, regrettably...the air whistles in one ear and out the other) mind and would entertain something different, if different meant 'better'.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 30, 2010, 01:08 PM:

Del;
Bear in mind that most animals are, to some degree, color blind. It's entirely possible that what we see as green & brown may be seen as a solid mono-tone grey by the critter of the hour.

Nothing wrong with sitting still in the shade in front of good backing and wearing Tiger Stripe camo ............. or a really loud Hawaiian Shirt.

I even heard that during last year's deer season, that somebody actually killed a deer while wearing Blaze Orange. [Eek!]

Since the fur market seems to still be down, just wear whatever you want & see what happens. You might be surprised. For that matter, instead of taking the first high percentage shot that the coyote gives you, see how close you can get it to come in to. You might be double suprised.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 30, 2010, 01:41 PM:

Let's be careful, koko. I'm telling ya, this monochrome shit does not fly too high, w/me. I don't know exactly how you see blaze orange, nor do I know how a coyote sees blaze orange. For all I know, what I see and identify as blaze orange, you see as morron? I'm positive that a mule deer can pick out blaze orange sitting on the side of a hill. Whether he sees the same thing I do, or a shade of blaze monochrome, I can't say, but it doesn't make much difference; they see it and know what it is, wiggling around, or not. A good argument for wearing some version of camo, as far as I am concerned?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on September 30, 2010, 03:55 PM:

In reality, where I am anyway, it's pretty much a Catch-22. I hunt mostly public lands, and while if I'm not deer hunting I technically don't have to wear any orange, walking to and from a stand a man has to have a death wish not to wear orange. Now once on stand, with your back to a tree, a man might well take an orange vest off and do some calling. And in small game season after Jan 1, then I'm not inclined to bother with a vest. Sometimes it seems kinda weird to get all cammied up to make yourself invisible, then put on an orange vest. Kinda like a whore putting on her sluttiest, skimpiest outfit, and then going to church and confession...seems like a contradiction in terms. As for wearing whatever and remaining motionless, that's for sure the truth. I've had deer walk past me 12' away, stop and stare straight at me, and then wander off. But another key factor in such close encounters is avoiding eye contact. Prey doesn't like to look eye-to-eye with something. You gotta have the wind in your favor, too. Lots of factors. It's just that if I'm gonna wear cammo, it only makes sense (to me) to try to use something that blends in somewhat with the terrain I'm hunting in. If I wear a Hawaiian shirt, then I wind up downloading Jimmy Buffett into the Foxpro and all I wind up calling in are Parrotheads!

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 30, 2010, 08:59 PM:

El Bee;
My point was that if game can be taken wearing that Gawd awful blaze orange, pretty much anything else is an improvement. As far as how things are 'seen' I only know what the scientists tell me. They wouldn't lie to me, would they???? [Confused]

Actually, I burnt a roll of black & white film a few years back, photographing most of my hunting equiptment & camo. Interesting results.

Long live the ParrotHeads!!!! [Cool]

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 30, 2010, 09:32 PM:

Ive always been told that blaze orange is seen as bright white to a deer. I dont know this and having not come across any talking deer, dont know that I ever will.

I do know you gotta hide a little more with it on. Without it on, you can wear damn near anything and as long as your not skylighted and dont move, your good to go.

As for camo, I thought I was going to get an exercise in yes vs no. I hunted one day at Elbees 06 campout, morning anyway, with Higgins and Boddicker. Higgins had his famous camo on, dont even know what to call it, but he does disappear. I had my ASAT. Major had denim overalls, some sort of shirt and a plaid flanel jacket. However, we never called shit, so I never got to see if the coyotes could tell a difference.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 01, 2010, 05:50 AM:

I think that black is the worst color to wear during a daytime hunt, and unless there is snow on the ground, white is a no-no to me. I usually have some type of camo on, but the pattern doesn't concern me. Those tan Carhart type coveralls would be dandy when coyote hunting. Turkeys are a whole nuther ball game.

Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on October 01, 2010, 08:03 AM:

Coyotes and deer - wear a face mask and the rest of it is just an extra skin to keep the briers from havin their way with you. Or some moron from smoking you during deer season...
Almost.

I still laugh; even if quietly and only to myself, whenever I remember a series of posts I read on the internet one time where these "champions" were ragging on Vic C. for wearing a pair of tennis shoes while hunting. This internet thing can be extremely entertaining if you view it properly.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 01, 2010, 11:01 AM:

He claims those tennies are Mexican wrestler shoes, and JH caught him unprepared for that photo shoot, so he just donned some camo in his drive way.

In any case, he will never live it down, if I have anything to say about it. Interestingly, the first person to call it to my attention was Higgins, when Higgins and Carlson weren't the best of friends.

Vic won't lose any sleep over it, I doubt it?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 01, 2010, 02:43 PM:

Found this over on "Hunt Talk"... I've read it before and I think it is fairly accurate.

I did a very unscientific test years ago by converting color pics to B&W and filtering the color elements to be more like a coyote supposedly sees.

quote:
Dr. Vaughan played a role in this well-known study of color vision in dogs published by J. Neitz, T. Geist, and G.S. Jacobs (1989), "Color vision in the dog", Visual Neuroscience Vol. 3, pages 119-125.

As a result of this study, it was found that dogs indeed lack the same color vision as humans. Humans have three types of color receptors in their eyes. Each color receptor picks up a small portion of the visible light spectrum. Dogs were found to have only two of these three types of color receptors in their eyes. This means that while dogs do see color, they are only able to differentiate a limited number of colors. This is very similar to a human who is colorblind. They are unable to differentiate between certain colors or shades.

Dr. Vaughan summarized the findings of the study by saying,

“These experiments showed that dogs do see color, but in a more limited range than that seen by normal humans, who see the rainbow of colors described by "VIBGYOR": Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red (plus hundreds of variations on these shades).

Instead, dogs see "VIBYYYR" (Violet, Indigo, Blue, Yellow, Yellow, Yellow, and Red). The colors Green, Yellow, and Orange all look alike to dogs; but look different from Red and different from the various Blues and Purples. Dogs are very good at telling different shades of VIB apart. Finally, Blue-Green looks White to dogs
So, What does this mean to the average hunter? Probably not much since we tend to buy what we feel looks "really cool" as much as what is functional. What this does mean is that we don't necessarily need to be so picky about the exact color of our camo. It is also a great argument in favor of using hunter orange to prevent hunting accidents. Since dogs (and probably deer as well) can't distinguish between orange, green and yellow, you can very easily get away with blaze orange gear because it will blend into all of the other greens and browns in the environment.

I think anytime a block of movement is seen a prey animal reacts as do predators. [Cool]

Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on October 01, 2010, 04:47 PM:

LB, I have little doubt that the issue will never disrupt Vic's sleep.

I found it absolutely amazing that someone - actually several - thought the shoes were a major detriment to success. Ain't nobody going to ever take that entertainment away!

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 01, 2010, 08:55 PM:

Nikonut;

I have to disagree with blaze orange blending in with greens & browns. Plain orange, yes. Fluorescent orange, no. Two entirely different animals.

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 01, 2010, 11:41 PM:

I would agree with reflective orange but...

The color spectrum is still the same. Hard to believe but lots of things are not what they seem to be when seen through a critter's eyes.

Orange will seem lighter gray than some greens due to the bluecast and darker than some browns due to the redcast, that's about all.

Nikonut

Edit: Note the orange is on green and the flourescent orange is on brown.

[ October 01, 2010, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 02, 2010, 09:46 AM:

I may be an uninformed idiot, but I just cannot accept the above representation as what a coyote sees, this shades of gray monotone bs. As Spock might say, it's not logical. Birds, a lower form of life than mammals, they see color quite well, and it ain't various shades of gray.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 02, 2010, 10:09 AM:

It's impossible to know exactly what another animal sees or how they translate color information in their brains.

However, by analyzing the color receptors in their eyes science can extrapolate what their eyes are capable of seeing... that's the best way I can explain it.

Reflective values don't change... that is a given fact. It is why a camera meter can evaluate an overall color scenes brightness by using an 18% gray scale. Some things don't make sense when judged by our eyes.
Red lights don't spook coyotes nearly as badly as green lights... didn't we recently discuss that fact, too? [Razz]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 02, 2010, 10:20 AM:

"Birds, a lower form of life than mammals, they see color quite well, and it ain't various shades of gray."

And many of those birds you speak of are diurnal. Primarily nocturnal species such as coyotes, deer, etc., are able to see better at night due to the structres of their retinas, specifically the presence or absence of cone versus rod cells and the way in which those rod cells are connected to the brain via the optic nerve.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 02, 2010, 11:05 AM:

Here's a video on how deer see;

Video

You'll hear the young lady say that deer are "dichromatic", meaning that they only see two parts of the color spectrum.

Here's a great representation of the differences in our trichromatic vision, from that of a dichromatic one;

Canines are dichromatic, just like deer.

Break-up patterned orange is probably the best way to undo the monochromatic appearance of blaze orange clothing items (like a vest).

But, I'll say it again, holding still is probably the best thing a guy can do to not be seen, no matter what he's wearing.

Leonard,

Even though they are lower on the evolutionary tree, birds have even better color vision than humans. Birds have what is called "wide spectrum trichromatic vision" (*which is sometimes referred to as "quadrachromatic").
Some birds that soar or that have extremely long migratory routes are thought to be able to see infra-red light, so that in a way they can actually see the air (like flowing water) and the temperature variances in it.
Other birds, like starlings and hummingbirds see ultra-violet light very well, and the "reflective" qualities of some feathers are highlighted like jewels (for instance the throat patch of a ruby-throated hummingbird).

There's a lot of talk anymore about u-v "killing" laundry soaps... and how deer and other dichromatic animals can see clothes as a glowing blue, especially in low light.
A black light can show how your clothes might appear with "normal" laundry soaps with u-v brighteners.

Krusty

[ October 02, 2010, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 02, 2010, 12:35 PM:

The Krusty One brings up a good point regarding levels of light. An animal is likely to see colors like blaze orange and high U.V. differently in low light conditions than they do at mid-day.

This is all getting very complicated. [Confused]

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 02, 2010, 05:57 PM:

Well, yes it is!

That is the conundrum, it is difficult due to the many variables.

I certainly agree that UV(Ultra violet)brighteners will make your camo look like it's on fire to a coyote or deer!

I think a break up pattern will always work better regardless of it's color even if it fits directly into a coyotes spectrum of sight. A pure white object that doesn't look like a human silhouette and doesn't move probably wouldn't scare a coyote... haven't really tried that but that is my guess.

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on October 03, 2010, 03:43 AM:

Wasn't it Gerry Blair who called in a bunch of coyotes while wearing a Santa suit? Or did he call in something else, like wild hogs?

[ October 03, 2010, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 03, 2010, 07:41 AM:

I'm not sure if he ever pulled it off with coyotes or not, but he called in a herd of javelina while wearing the 'Santa Suit'. It was done as a camera stunt, out in the open, in full sun & blowing a hand call with lots of movement.

Gerry was the insperation behind my Hawaiian camo shirt. [Cool]

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on October 03, 2010, 07:45 AM:

Lol. I wonder how a javelina's vision differs from a coyote's...

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 03, 2010, 09:55 AM:

I'm pretty sure that javelina could probably spot a white truck at a 100 yards if the background was dark & the truck was moving........and it was a diesel. A diesel 18 wheeler.

Great nose, decent ears, weak eyes. A fun critter to have show up on a stand and put on a 'macho' display.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 03, 2010, 10:28 AM:

I've found that most of the darker camo's are pretty good once on stand but are a dead give-away when going to a stand or you have to do any moveing while on stand.
For me the liter camo's seem to work best while on stand and when moveing to a stand. As you can see some of the moument I make to get a coyote on vidio they don't seem to mind or know what I am at the time. Another good way to blend in is use a liter camo on top( jacket or shirt)and a darker camo on the bottom (pants). I'm usually set up on a hill side so the same camo on top and bottom works well..

The carhart pants and jacket are a good color but reflect to much on sunny days...

[ October 03, 2010, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 03, 2010, 11:38 AM:

I think Rich Higgins in his video showed that shape has alot to do with it as well. Wasn't a red smoking jacket and a giant rabbit head worn while calling in a plowed field?

I like the lighter colors too, I used to like Mossy oak but once I saw it at a distance and it turned dark gray, almost black I started using my Natural Gear camo or any camo that is really faded.

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 03, 2010, 01:18 PM:

You guys bring up good points.

It is probably a good idea to hang your hunting jacket on a bush or post and walk out 100yds or more to see what it looks like at a distance, would be well worth the exercise! LOL

I think many would be surprised at how different patterns might work. I've watched deer standing in a field at 300-400yds disappear when they turn just right, it's amazing to plainly see them there one minute and gone the next. [Eek!]

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on October 03, 2010, 03:55 PM:

What do you guys like to wear while calling at night?

Basic black? Or will any camo do when not up against a snowy white background?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 03, 2010, 07:53 PM:

quote:
What do you guys like to wear while calling at night?

Anything thats warm with black and white for colors.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 03, 2010, 08:31 PM:

Camo that matches the background should be better concealed to an animal that can see in the dark, better than black.

Black cows are fairly easy to see at night for me anyway.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 03, 2010, 11:18 PM:

I just try to dress warm.

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on October 04, 2010, 03:09 PM:

Thanks guys.

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