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Author
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Topic: Laser Genetics
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted August 05, 2010 06:45 PM
I got the ND3 lite that mounts on the scope and the ND5 Locator flashlite deal.
Laser greenlite spot lites, anyone got any experience with them or something like them.
Friend got them to try etc. Warning says not to shine in animals eyes?? WTF? They project a hell of a beam.
Mounted it today, I guess we shall see.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted August 06, 2010 01:07 AM
It will be interesting to hear how well a green light works for coyotes...
I've always understood that a coyote sees blues and greens very well. Testing with live critters will always be the only way to know how they will react, even if they can actually see the laser beam or not.
I'm guessing you're using night vision, too? I don't think we can here in Obamaland.
I know a 3watt LED will reach wayyyyy out there!
Nikonut
[ August 06, 2010, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 06, 2010 05:03 AM
The latest material I've read shows that coyotes see in shades of blues and yellows, but lack the retinal cells to perceive green as anything but white. Still oughtta be interesting to see how they react to that.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 07, 2010 04:26 AM
I have read that these ND3's do not work in cold weather.
I too am interested to see your results Randy.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 07, 2010 07:27 AM
I'm not aware of this shit? Is there a link where I can be brought up to speed?
Thanks, ElBee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 07, 2010 09:11 AM
I am no expert, but here is my opinion of LED lights. I have had a few of those small LED flashlights around here. I notice that when you look directly into the light, it hurts your eyes but they don't shine as far in the dark as a standard flashlight does.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted August 07, 2010 10:20 AM
heres a link Leonard
http://www.lasergenetics.com/nd3-laser-designator.aspx
[ August 07, 2010, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted August 07, 2010 12:10 PM
Rich,
The led lights are just super efficient. They need a focusing lens to reach out like a standard halogen bulb.
A 3watt led will blind you and if focused will throw a beam almost 400yds with no problem! I've got a 3watt, 3Dcell Maglite that is great... and focus able, $29. You can't filter an led without losing most of the light output.
What Randy has is a laser... completely different! Not legal here for hunting at all.
Nikonut
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted August 07, 2010 02:25 PM
I know very little about them but will know more in the future.
LB, it gives you the sense of looking thru NV without having NV. Green beam, easily adjustable from spot to flood. Lights up a human at 600 yards no problem.
The batteries from my rangefinder work in it and they are rechargables.
On snow would be handy.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 07, 2010 08:50 PM
Thanks, Paul. Looks slick?
Keep us posted, Randy!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted September 08, 2010 07:08 PM
Here's what happened on three different deals.
Coyotes came in but these lights seem to spook the hell out of em. I am by no means a night hunting guy but have shot coyotes with a regular red lense and with a plain white light spotlight. From what I saw I wasn't impressed.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 08, 2010 08:35 PM
Haven't used this thing. What I will say is that when using a red laser as an aiming device on shotguns, more often than not, the coyote actually acted like he was stung. Kinda jumped and veared off when he could see the laser tracking on his body, or I don't know? maybe they see the source and that's why they shy away? Near as I can tell, coyotes get jumpy when hit with a laser, especially if they are looking and running in the direction of the sound. Not so much if they are veering off when they have seen enough.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted September 08, 2010 09:23 PM
LB, it seemed like you stated that once they got out aways they were much more at ease with it being on them. Then it was tough to pick them up in the scope, the green light made it tough to see anything but eyes.
Not tryin to sound like i know a frickin thing about this night huntin deal cause i don't but when i would have one approaching and shine him in, it was like once you gave him anything more than the edge of the light it spooked the hell out of him. Then once it retreated to 200-300-yards it would be fine with the light until you shrunk the beam then it spooked him again. You had to shrink it to pick up the body to have any idea where the body was facin for a shot.
For the money you just as well invest in NV.
JRB has similar results.
It would freak the hell out of cattle horses etc.
I've had much better results with just a plain old spotlight.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 09, 2010 06:38 AM
"plain old spotlight" DITTO
(w/red lens)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted September 09, 2010 07:47 AM
Randy, what kind of rifle scope are you using on these stands? Not that it makes the laser perform any differently… but I’m curious how your scope’s light gathering ability is being enhanced/hampered by green laser illumination.
I've invested a lot of time and money in making MIDWESTERN coyotes comfortable under lights. I won't argue any differences between the callability or behavior patterns of Eastern vs. Western coyotes but there is a huge difference in the tools/techniques/regulations applicable in night hunting the two different regions.
If you're hunting coyotes at night, under lights, without the aid of a vehicle, then you're tinkering with a niche that I have some experience in. I'm not qualified to argue many things about hunting coyotes: but that is one area I'm fairly well versed in.
It seems a lot of the advice/knowledge I’ve heard on night hunting predators falls in one of two categories.
1) Southwest style hunting.
2) Old fox callin’ strategies from the 60’s & 70’s.
While there are a WHOLE LOT of things that can be gleaned from these two schools of thought, neither of them have been a rubber-stamp for success for killing coyotes in my area without considerable tweaking.
One thing I have a serious problem applying to coyotes here is a light that is either:
(A) High intensity without rheostat.
(B) Not dark red in filtration.
I’m not saying that it can’t be done otherwise but even in the best of cases… these high powered and/or unfiltered lights aren’t nearly as productive for working coyotes in my area. Not even close. A lot of old school and/or Southwestern night hunters are probably on the edge of their seat after seeing my statement, thinking they could work my coyotes under a 3 million candlepower white light by running halo’s and careful scans. I stand by my theory that I’d outcall them 10:1 with other methods. I’ve spent too much time filming coyotes with night vision (unbeknownst to them) and applied various lights/filters/lasers to see their reaction… then applied sounds to watch their mood change again. A low frequency or otherwise rheostated light, with red lens, is fundamental when CALLING coyotes in my area. When you flip the discussion to KILLING those coyotes, you need to consider some other variables like light gathering optics and the focusing abilities of your light.
As for lasers affecting the behavior of incoming coyotes, I’ve tested a handful of different styles. The bottom line is that any laser that isn’t infrared is going to be VERY VERY visible to coyotes if their eyes are subjected to the source (aka: optical cavity). During a high-stress situation like responding to a prey distress or coyote vocalization: those visible spectrum lasers are sending up red-flags left and right.
The optical cavity of an infrared laser ($1,000-$3,000) is visible to coyotes but you can get away with more since the peripheral illumination (divergence) is nearly invisible. Of course you must be using night vision to make use of an IR laser, and they are fairly expensive, so I don’t know of anyone else using them for stinkin’ coyotes. The optical cavity of a “visible spectrum” laser like the ND3 is also visible with a lot of peripheral “splash” (aka: broad divergence) that they REALLY don’t like to see when working a call. In all my comparisons of standard lasers (ranging in value from $100 to $1,000) I have noticed very little difference in the way coyotes respond to the various levels of divergence if power source and optical cavity remain equal. Although the numbers look very different on paper: they translate the same to coyotes- “OH SHIT!” The most obvious differences in cheap lasers and expensive lasers are durability and consistent pinpointing (aka” narrow divergence) if you’re trying to use them as an aiming device.
Anyway, this is getting unintentionally long and detailed. If you switch the topic to calling fox, calling from a high-rack in West Texas or lighting up coyotes over bait… I won’t argue the benefits of a high powered green laser. If you’re calling coyotes from the ground in agricultural areas, I stand by my theory that a red rheostated light would be superior.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 09, 2010 08:00 AM
I'm afraid I don't see anything new in your post, jr? I was using a rheostat controlled red light for hunting predators many years before there were any coyotes in the midwest. Lasers as an aiming device? Meh. Good for spotting/marking a down animal and that's about it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32369 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted September 09, 2010 08:33 AM
Nothing to fear Amigo, I didn't intend to offer ground breaking news with red lenses and rheostats. Instead I was indirectly trying to explain why many tools outside those parameters (like the newfangled high intensity green lasers) were not my choice for calling coyotes in the Midwest.
In reviewing your post about coyotes seeing a red laser when used as an aiming device on shotguns... I can tell you what I've documented on numerous occasions. They're seeing the opical cavity of the laser (at your gun). When I have encountered a coyote in the dark that was unaware of my presence, and applied a laser to him, he never acknowledged it until he made contact with the source (optical cavity). He didn't see it on the ground in front of him, he didn't see it on the female he was sniffing, but he sure saw the source. Many of my night-vision videos show a red laser streaming through the fog, corn fodder or other obstructions. We use this beam to keep the cameras & guns on the same page without verbal communication. I've never had a coyote see the laser "on" those things- but once he looks directly at the optical cavity he becomes aware of the lasers presence.
There are folks out there using visible spectrum lasers for aiming devises with mild success. Hog hunters mainly which isn't necessarily relevant to coyote callers. I use some unique laser intensifiers to provide scanning/filming light... same concept as the ND3 but lower frequency and of the infrared spectrum. In this unique application: lasers are superior to any other form of lighting.
[ September 09, 2010, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted September 09, 2010 08:35 PM
Jason i was just using a Leupold Var X III 3.5 X 10 40 MM obj.
It was tough to see what way the coyote was facing etc.
If you had to buy a NV set up what would you get.
Jesus, I don't know shit about this stuff but it sure interests me. Trouble is if i get into this nite stuff when the hell will i be home??
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted September 09, 2010 09:31 PM
Randy I have a night vision spotting scope you can try out to see if this is what you want to get into. Let me know and I'll bring it along when I come to Pierre on the 16th..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5623 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 10, 2010 04:27 AM
[quote]Jesus, I don't know shit about this stuff but it sure interests me.[/quote}
Same here. Utah has quite a few counties where it's possible to legally hunt at night. But they all require not being attached to the vehicle in any way, shape or form. So I've done very little of it, none at all for four or five years now. I'm ignorant as could be about this stuff.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted September 10, 2010 05:02 AM
what little I have played with, you need to go to at least Gen 4 stuff for any real serious coyote hunting. Then you need both goggles and a scope so you are looking at around $7K. Or, if you want the real deal go thermal! But then you are talking $20K!
[ September 10, 2010, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted September 10, 2010 05:49 AM
I've got enough time looking through a FLIR thermal camera we have on the big boat for running at night. Tried some early Gen I & Gen II NV monoculars, but they pale in comparion to the forward looking IR camera. Even though the FLIR has a black & white screen, target determination of a living object is fantastic. You can get color FLIR now, too...
A FLIR equipped riflescope would be fantastic for engaging coyotes at night. But you'd prolly want a 'spotter' with goggles to pan around and locate a target first. I'd not want to be scanning back & forth by swingin' a rifle all night. OR just use good ol' candle power to swing & spot 'em first, then switch over...
f.w.i.w...
I have a Lightforce 170 on a swivel monopod for night hunts. Hunting from a vehicle will get you jail time here in NY, as will shooting from a road, so I' do 'walk-in' stands, much like JRB. Lately, I've been leaving the 170/battery pack & monopod home & just grab a Streamlight Ultrastimger flashlight I've rigged up. It's got a Butler Creek Blizzrd cap on the front, with the clear lens of the flip cap tinted red via a red Sharpie marker...
With the blanket of snow I'm usually hunting over, that little flashlight will light a coyote's eyes up @ 300yds, and allows me positive ID by the time he gets to 200...
[ September 10, 2010, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted September 10, 2010 05:59 AM
Randy, that’s a fine scope but the 40mm is certainly a limiting factor in low-light conditions. Depending on how much moonlight and ambient light there was… I’m not surprised you had trouble acquiring good targets at 200-300 yards. In fact, if you had a good-clear sight picture at those ranges with a locked light source (no rheostat) - I’d be shocked if a coyote would feel comfortable inside 100. Again, this is all relevant to how much moonlight or ambient light you had. Some nights you can make out moving bodies at 300 yards with your bare eyes, some nights you’ll walk into a fencepost trying to get back to the truck.
Before I forget, you bring up another huge issue that I’ve fought with night hunting. Range estimation. To me, it borders on the unexplainable and “twilight zone” shit, but judging the range of objects under lights is very deceiving. Of course in many cases your depth perception is limited to whatever you can view through the light source or NV scope. Then you have to deal with the lack of detail in what you CAN see which really hampers your eyes ability to scale things in farm country. For whatever reason, if I take ten guys hunting and put a coyote broadside at 100 yards… 4 of them will say he was 350 yards, 4 will say he was 30 yards and the other two will guess him between 75 & 125. On the next stand, the two guys who guessed the range of the coyote will think we’re standing 200 yards from a wood line that is 800 yards away.
Aside from making several hundred stands the hard way, I made a concerted effort to remove my delusional range estimates by going out at night with BIG lights, range finders and survey markers. I walked around at stands and took yardage estimates using only my hunting equipment, then shot them with the big lights & range-finder and laid survey flags at the points so I could replay the situation later in the daylight for a fresh perspective. This helped me tremendously and would shorten the learning curve of any new night hunter in my region. The funniest thing about this weird phenomenon of night hunting is, you’ll never successfully argue with someone about how bad their yardage estimation was. They’ll break out hypothesis on how many corn-rows was between them and how long the coyote trotted after he came through the fencerow. All kinds of inaccurate stuff that made sense in their heads. I’m guilty myself, I still occasionally trip over dead coyotes at 60 yards while I’m setting out on what I thought was going to be a 200 yard retrieval. LOL! I suggest you setup some targets at known ranges and get a feel for what your sight picture is going to look like with your lighting & optics combination. Then, if moon/ambient lighting conditions change drastically- revisit those targets to calibrate your eyes (and expectations). If you want to get heavily involved in shooting coyotes at night, from the ground or on sticks, I suggest you begin calibrating your eye to the size of coyote-sized game in your crosshairs at various yardages. Scaling objects (fencepost/deer/utility poles) against your crosshairs is not necessarily a science, but it can sure come in handy if you do it enough.
Night vision is a real unique topic that isn’t visited on many predator hunting websites. Like anything else, there is a certain amount of opinion and personal preference behind the products we choose to carry… but there is a considerable amount of cut & dried requirements that cannot be overlooked. Since the learning curve is so steep and extremely expensive: information doesn’t flow very freely on this topic. The bulk of the NV topics I’ve come across online fall into a couple categories. You have the guys who have a $239 monocular they picked up at K-mart and it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Then you have the guys who laugh at the costs involved and shoot down the potential benefits and applications of looking through darkness at coyotes working a call.
The short version of my discovery would be that Gen1 units, and some Gen2 units, are useless to a Midwestern coyote caller. Quite simply it boils down to how far and how clearly you need to be able to see to handle a coyote. There are several Gen2 units out there that will give you the range/clarity and sight picture that you need. Once you reach a realm of product (Gen2+) that provides a clear enough picture to work coyotes with: you have to start looking at accuracy and durability. There ARE scopes out there that will show you rabbits at 400 yards but won’t hold zero or group better than 6” at 100yrds. Don’t ask me why they put crosshairs in something that isn’t functional for a shooter.
From what I’ve seen, you’re looking at around $2,500 for a scope that would be functional for CALLING coyotes and consistently taking shots from 50-300 yards. If you want to tackle issues like the unit’s lifespan, warranty, autogating, recovery time or long range capabilities… you could end up in the $4,000-$5,000 range. If you ever decide to purchase something like this, let me know and I’ll give you a contact. You’re also welcome to take me on a fully-guided hunt in SD and take a look at the equipment I use while dragging my coyotes. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Cal, if you were going to choose a NV scope you’d definitely need to look into those Gen4 units that facilitate those 700 yard shots you make. I’m impressed with how accurate your prices are! Your sarcasm is more accurate than most of the “knowledge” I’ve read elsewhere.
Fred, I have a feeling it would be pretty tricky business to call and kill coyotes with a FLIR or other thermal imaging device. Too many variables involved when the "shit hits the fan" and you have coyotes moving around at various ranges in various settings. Getting a thermal unit in/out of the truck (Warm/cold) and hunting situations where you have actual thermal convection of air COULD get ugly. I think you'd find a lot of cold objects like sticks/fences/ect once you pulled the trigger on a warm coyote at 200 yards. Also I hear the sight-recovery after a weapon flash is pretty rough on the civilian grade thermal equipment. Ah hell, why don't you just go buy one and we'll give it a spin?! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ September 10, 2010, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted September 10, 2010 10:52 AM
JRB is right about judgeing a distance at nite It can get pretty tricky. I was calling at home last winter dureing a full moon on snow and not useing any type of lite source other than the moon. I found by useing a pair of fieldglasses (10x) you can pick out a coyote about 300-400 yds out and won't see it with the naked eye till about 200 yds and when you do its just a big shadow. I had a pair comeing in on one stand and they looked to be 300 yds out so I dialed in 300 yds on the scope and missed them. I went back the next day to see if there might be some blood, just wanted to make sure and to also see how far they where at the time of the shot. I found the rock pile that they ran up to when I took the shot, turns out it was a chip shot of 100 yds.LOL Now I look over the areas I plan to call at nite to get a better picture of distances before I come in to call.
For a nite scope I like my 30mm tube over a 1" tube.. I do have a scope with a big lense on the end not sure what size it is but its not any better than my scope with the 30mm tube and smaller lense..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5623 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 10, 2010 11:02 AM
I agree that the technology is well capable of sending a thrill down my leg, sort of like that Mathews dink.
There is lots of money you can spend on thermo and FLIR and gen 5 or maybe 6 NV.
But, when we get back down to earth and realize how effective visible light and plain vanilla scopes can be, I just have to wonder?
Without any exaggeration, I can assure you folks that possessing the skills and techniques to hunt coyotes or any other predator, with conventional gear, is far superior to all the high tech gadgets money can buy.
I'm not saying these things have no value, because they sure as hell do have value. But, when you consider the investment, I am fairly sure that employing a low tech red spotlight and knowing how to use it is easily equal to all of this "thrill up the leg" gear.
What I'm trying to say is that 90% of the animals can be routinely taken with a red visible light and some skill and knowledge on the part of the hunter. Believe me, I know this stuff and I know that there are damned few coyotes smart enough to outwit me and my low tech methods, which begs the question. That being; is this shit REALLY necessary, or is it just another attempt to shorten the curve?
Under excellent conditions, I have killed 25 coyotes in a single night with my primitive gear. Just think about that for a minute. How many (more) coyotes are you going to kill with $20,000 worth of thrilling equipment?
This stuff has value but it is not a coyote multiplier, nor can you say, (swearing on a stack of Bibles) that without this gadget, I/you wouldn't have been able to do it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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