Author
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Topic: Which Howler?
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted January 09, 2006 09:05 PM
Looking to try out a new howler and need some opinions on what you guys think is the best howler out there. I may even spend the money on a cow horn howler. Has anybody used a ELK howler? Ive also seen pics of a ELK mouth piece on a cow horn anybody know anything about this call?
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 09, 2006 10:50 PM
The ELK is good, the Johnny Stewart is easy to use, Rich Cronk can make you one. They all work.
Of course, one is getting hard to come by; the very nice Higgins Howler.
Good hunting. LB
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 10, 2006 03:29 AM
My 1st, was a Johnny Stewart "Songdog". I lost it a field .
My 2nd was a Quaker Boy "Pro Howler" [take the mouth piece cover off] . Gave it to a friend, who didn't have a howler.
Both excellent calls IMB.
I use any of my open reed calls, for everything now.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 10, 2006 04:34 AM
Rich Higgins will tell you that he isn't in the manufacturing arena any longer, but Brett Saxton (sp?) aka Kee Kee is making them almost the same way using the ELK Power Howler platform and the bovine horn.
I wish you'd have said something Sunday. Either Rich, Tyler or I would have been happy to let you hear one. Mine was in the truck with the rest of my camos. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) [ January 10, 2006, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
-------------------- I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 10, 2006 07:24 AM
I have the JS cyc2 howler that I use without a horn as a pup howler and with a horn from a quaker boy howler (slight modification to make fit) as an adult howler. Personally I like a howler with a removable horn so you can sound like a lower pitched adult or a higher pitched pup out of the same call.
Over on TPP recently there was a short thread similar to this and a couple of people talked about using a critter call standard as the mouth piece for a horn or funnel. One specified using a .015" reed.
I haven't done this to vouch for the sound but if I had a critter call standard and a funnel I would try it for fun though. I mention it because it might trigger an inspiration or be thought provoking.
Right now I'm opening my stands with a "custom" call that 2dogs assembled and gave me. It's a 2b1 tone board inserted into a white pvc adaptor (1/2" to 3/4"?? I'm not sure the size) as the call body. With a piece of cork I have secured a .010" lexan reed. It does excellent pup howls, distress, and barks. As well as a good jackrabbit. If I ever get to the hardware store I'll probably get some pieces of pvc to make a horn for it.
later, scruffy [ January 10, 2006, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
-------------------- Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 10, 2006 08:57 AM
JeremyKS, First of all I would like to congratulate you for your recent victory down there at St. Francis. In reference to your howler question, my ears tell me that buffalo horn always seems to be the correct thickness to reproduce authentic coyote howls. A cow horn with correct length and thickness is also very good. I could make you a good one, but they are expensive because of the time it takes to tune the dang things right. Here is a tip to help you build your own. After obtaining a buffalo horn, or a cow horn with rather thin walls, drill it to accept a Crit'r call "standard". You will need a small sheet of .015 mylar which I can send you if you like. With a good pair of scissors, cut yourself a reed that is about 1/8" wider than the reed that comes with the crit'r call. You may end up trying several different reed widths until you find one that fits your style of blowing. When you install the new reed, you want the reed just long enough so that it barely covers the air channel out at the tip. On the horn itself, begin with a length of ten inches or so. You can always shorten the bugger a little bit at a time if you don't like the sound. Good luck, Rich
-------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 10, 2006 09:21 AM
Rich, how does .015" mylar compare to .010" lexan? In my comparison of .010" lexan to .010" vinal I found the lexan to be raspier and the vinal to be softer sounding. Just wondering your thoughts on how mylar compares.
I have a small sheet of mylar (from Krusty sample pack that I think is .015") that I'll try to cut a reed from to test in the call I got from 2dogs (It's a good test mule ). Just wondering what to expect so if I get something different I know something went hay wire (bad reed, bad cutting job, etc).
later, scruffy
-------------------- Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 10, 2006 10:30 AM
My JS Songdog, sounded alot like my Crit'R call Standard. But I liked the Songdog better ------------- As I've stated earlier, on the calls I've slapped together & given away. The tone-boards, were made by [Steve Barbour] .
For Gosh sakes, I don't want to be one of them thar...prostitutes
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 10, 2006 10:41 AM
quote: For Gosh sakes, I don't want to be one of them thar...prostitutes
Hint: the more you deny it the more suspicious. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 10, 2006 10:57 AM
Hmmm, Leonard...I use to think of you as my Uncle. Now, after that remark...now your my Foster Uncle, LOL!
coyote-hooker dogs
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 10, 2006 11:21 AM
Jeremy,
I'd get a Taylor Special, or a Killer Call, from Mr. Cronk. I'd also seriously consider the YD1 or 2 (can't remember which is the howler) from Yellerdude, err I mean Yellerdog.
They are pocket sized howlers with full sized abilities. My big cowhorn never went with me, it needed it's own fanny pack (and just "sounded too big").
I can't say I've tried the E.L.K. powered horn howlers. They do sound good, from the sound bytes I've heard.
Scruffy,
The mylar I sent is slightly different than the (tan colored) mylar Rich uses. The clear sheet mylar I sent has very similar sound characteristics, and a little less memory for holding a bend or kink.
Comparing vinyl to lexan, isn't a fair comparison, for thickness alone. Think of thickness like a diving board, a thicker board has more spring (until it becomes too thick).
Lee (aka Yellerdog) ***** sheets of the tan mylar, at a totally reasonable price. The minimum purchase I could find it in was a 4'x100' roll (and I doubted I could sell enough to get my money back).
Krusty 
-------------------- Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 10, 2006 11:38 AM
Thanks for the help and info Krusty!
later, scruffy [ January 10, 2006, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
-------------------- Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 10, 2006 12:12 PM
"Rich, how does .015" mylar compare to .010" lexan?" -------- Well, the .010 lexan is .005 thinner than .015 mylar. To be honest, I haven't done a fair comparison of Lexan VS Mylar. Mylar is what the Dupont company calls their polyester film,but I don't know what Lexan is for sure. I have some that Krusty gave me, and it seems to act & sound much the same as mylar but what it would do down the road in ten years? I don't know the answer to that. I use mylar because I have tested it for twenty years now, and the stuff sure does hold up well.
-------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 10, 2006 12:27 PM
Krusty, Thanks for the kindwords in regard to the killer call, and the modified model like Cal Taylor uses. Cal is walking proof that a man can certainly get by with a small howler under most calling conditions. Matter of fact, Cal once told me that he thinks I am crazy for putting a big ole horn up front. The cow horn is a lot louder for one thing, and that gives quite an advantage in windy conditions. The horn also gives better adult coyote sounds I think. The coyotes are the only judge that matters though, and I have seen them come to howls from human vocal chords. I once heard a coyote during the night that sounded like a big old frog or something. Some of the worst howls I have ever heard came from real coyotes. Go figure.
-------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 10, 2006 01:56 PM
I believe Lexan is an acrylic?
Something I thought was interesting was a conversation I had with Gerald Stewart, several years ago. He said they had been using die cut thermoplastic of some sort(?) for the howler but switched to an injection molded reed material that has a tapered thickness. He said they were stronger?
Good hunting. LB
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 10, 2006 02:06 PM
Leonard, Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing a couple of the older Stewart howlers with cracked reeds. I'm glad to hear that they have taken steps to correct a possible reed material problem.
-------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Yellerdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 356
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posted January 10, 2006 07:46 PM
quote: I'd also seriously consider the YD1 or 2 (can't remember which is the howler) from Yellerdude, err I mean Yellerdog.
Lee (aka Yellerdog) ***** sheets of the tan mylar, at a totally reasonable price. The minimum purchase I could find it in was a 4'x100' roll (and I doubted I could sell enough to get my money back).
My ears were ringing and I wondered why?
Now I know. Dang Krusty, I only had to buy a 5' x 50' roll. Should only take me about a year or two to get my money back. There didn't seem to be many options though.
They're YDH1's and YDD2's by the way. You were pretty close though. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
-------------------- Lee Smith
Remember, we meet at dawn.
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 10, 2006 10:50 PM
Scruffy,
As always, you're welcome, I am glad I could help. I've had some pretty good teachers help me understand how calls work, some were actually teachers (at school).
One of the first things Rich Cronk taught me, was to be generous, with what I know, and what I can do.
There's four materials I am familiar with, enough to offer my own comparison. Polystyrene, like "hot wheels" toy package. Polyvinyl, which is what many duck calls use (P.S. Olt in particular does). Mylar, Dupont's proprietary name for a nylon like product. And Lexan, also Dupont's proprietary name, for a polycorbonate based plastic.
Starting with polyvinyl, because it's at one end of the spectrum, it has a mellow tone, low srping rate, and high memory. It also isn't well manufactured (to be a consistant sheet, it's pumped into shapes), and tends to split along it's grain. Mylar comes in several forms, including the silver balloons and potato chip bags, and both the tan mylar most call makers use and the clear mylar I have (one is mylar D and the other mylar B, I believe the tan stuff is B). Mylar has a rich tone, good spring rate and memory, and is manufactured to be a very high quality sheet. The tan mylar may have a bit longer lifespan (than the clear) but I haven't seen any significant difference. The clear mylar has a bit crisper tone, slighty quicker spring than the tan, and not quite as good of memory for holding a bend. I think someone would have to die-cut the reeds to exactly the same size and shape, and use sophisticated recording equipment, to test the differences. The lexan has the sharpest tones, broadest range of pitch, and a very high spring rate, but to achieve this it suffers from being quite brittle. Because of that I can see where it will only ever see use in the custom call arena, where personalized customer care is at another level. I'm hooked on the stuff though.
Rich,
Lucky for us, the truth is kind (in this case). That's where I found my words.
I'll stick by what I said, a howler that fits in my pocket, or comfortably on my lanyard, has more "true value" to me (especially in the field). I haven't gotten to talk smak with a whole lotta coyotes, but with a fair amount of the ones I have, I did so using a CritR Call modified exactly as you suggested.
I had a pack of four or five coyotes RUN from my big horn howler (they were doing what I'd call a gathering/flee/assembly group yip howl). Though it was the night before I called the cougar, so maybe it wasn't me they were running from?
Leonard,
I believe acrylic is a tradename for polypropylene (sic?)(so are polyester, rayon, orlon, and it's the base for the many versions of holofil).
Tapering the reed (both in width and/or thickness) is a way of having a varying spring rate, that way it gets softer (or weaker) towards the tip, giving you a higher pitched "top end".
It very well could be that the die they were using left micro serations in the edges of the reeds, which caused cracks and failure of the reeds. The lexan is prone to the same types of failures, and sanding the edges smooth and slightly chamferred increases lifespan dramatically.
Injection molding alone might have solved the failure problem, and created a bonus situation with increaded range of the variable rate reed?
Yellerdude,
Just like with Mr Cronk, the kind words I have for your calls are also found in truth. I likes em.
So I take it the YDH1 is your Yeller Dog Howler - version 1... I tried both, at bear camp a couple years back, and was fully impressed.
Krusty  [ January 10, 2006, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
-------------------- Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted January 10, 2006 11:15 PM
Rich,did you ever try the 14 mil mylar? i use it on most all my howlers and it works very good for me.
If any of you can use some 14 mil mylar or.010 you could try hut products.you can buy it in smaller quantities.I designed a new call,[the black pup]the.010 i used on the tone board and it worked very good.I believe the critr' standard comes with the .010 mylar reed.?
you can check them out here
www.hutproducts.com
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 11, 2006 06:54 AM
Melvin, To be perfectly honest, I don't know for sure. I have enough mylar in either .014 or .015 to last me a lifetime if my garage don't burn down. I will get my micrometer out one of these days and see if I can determine what exactthickness it is. Since I make my own tone boards one at a time and tune each one to match the barrel that I choose, I doubt that .001" thickness difference between .014 & .015 would matter much.
Now against my better judgement, I am going to tell you fellows something. Most of you are probably familiar with the pitch break problem when using a howler. I am convinced that this is largely caused by internal pressure (blowback). That is why it is necessary to tune each cow horn howler after the voice is inserted into the horn. Remember how Bill Austin PVC pipe calls were made with quite a large opening in front of, and above the reed? I didn't like that design, but have come to believe that it would eliminate most of the blowback, and therefore cure most pitch break problems. I am going to test that theory very soon. Those old soft plastic notebook cover reeds would have less pitch breaks also, but who the heck wants to be bending the reed back in to shape 100 times a day? Just a few thoughts from an old call maker.
-------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 11, 2006 07:22 AM
quote: The lexan has the sharpest tones, broadest range of pitch, and a very high spring rate, but to achieve this it suffers from being quite brittle. Because of that I can see where it will only ever see use in the custom call arena, where personalized customer care is at another level. I'm hooked on the stuff though.
In my short experience I agree 100%. I was practicing on my test mule call with a .010" lexan reed on the way to work this morning. I started with doe bleets, then fawn distress, lonesome pup howls, pup yips, pup whines, excited pup distress (this morning I finally got that sound like I want it and am ready to use it in the field! ), low pitched raspy jack rabbit, high pitched cottontail rabbit, and of course sharp barks to stop a coyote for the shot. I know there are still more sounds in that call/reed combo, and given time I'll get them out of it (2dogs showed me how to do a woodpecker but as of yet I haven't been able to do it).
That said, the last time I was up hunting with 2dogs his lexan reeded call had a reed split at the tip. That night when I changed from a vinyl reed back to a lexan reed on my test mule. I cut a template reed (gridded sheet of lexan) and then after it sounded like I wanted I used the template to cut two lexan reeds from non gridded lexan paper I have (both gridded and non gridded lexan sheets from walmart craft department). I tested both reeds and put one in my wallet behind my drivers liscense (along with the vinyl reed that was in the call, can't have too many spare reeds on you. ) and left the better of the two sounding reeds in the call. The template is somewhere safe.
I don't use sandpaper on the lexan reed edges, but I do use fine steel wool. I start the reed wide at the base and taper it narrower at the front. On my next lexan reeds that I cut I was thinking to make the cuts for the sides of the reed straighter I was going to take a flat fingernail file, lay it down flat with a rough side up, and slide the edge of the reed, running lenghtways, over it to take any peeks and valleys out of my cuts, then polish the edges with steel wool. I'm getter better at making the cuts straight, but I doubt they are anywhere near perfect...
Oh, and I started using a sharp fingernail clipper on the front corners of the reed cutting an approx 45 degree angle (similar to the 45 degree angle cuts on a screaming deamon reed tip, but my reed is tapered down narrow at the tip, where the screamon demon reed is wide front to back). I think it gives the last front 1/8" of the reed a really high pitched "sharp" climax which I use when making my excited pup distress sounds at the end of some of my excited pup distress yelps. It's hard to explain in print... but hopefully the coyote judges will like it.
I don't know why I find it so interesting, but I do. I guess I just love to make music.
later, scruffy [ January 11, 2006, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
-------------------- Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 11, 2006 07:52 AM
I have always tuned by scraping (or deburring, as you wish) the edges with a very sharp knife, as opposed to sanding or steel wool.
Good hunting. LB
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted January 11, 2006 10:10 AM
Rich,you're not only an old call maker,but a good smart call maker.I believe you hit the nail on the head.There are 4 factors that come into play when making a good call(any open reed call)no.1 amount of curve on sound board.-no.2 the size of channel in sound board(width and depth)no.3The size,thickness and type of reed material used-no.4 the length,size of barrel and opening(hole)in barrel.It's very easy to check you're theory,Take the crit'r call standard or song dog,add the extra barrels to either,and you can see how blowback makes a difference.When you cup you're hand in front of any call,has an effect(blow back)to get the sound out,we want.
The way the Bill Austin's call was designed,it had free flowing air through the barrel(no blow back)it was a very simple design,but it worked. As you know,we got to get all these 4 factors working together to come up with a good working call.(everything to match together)I'm going to throw no.5 in here,because it plays a big part in sound,and that would be,material used(plastic,wood and others.) I don't think most callers realize what we go through to come up with a good custom call,(the time spent on each idividual call) When they pay,25-50-100 bucks for a call,made by a good call maker,there getting there moneys worth. Myself,i don't make calls for money-its a hobby,challenge and i enjoy making them.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 11, 2006 10:24 AM
Melvin, Do you remember the old and true statement that said "We did not intend for this to be a non profit organization, it just turned out that way".?? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Brad Norman
Okie Dokie
Member # 234
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posted January 12, 2006 07:12 PM
Rich,
Speaking of Taylor Specials...I'm in need of a new one. I hope you have time to build me another one. I'll give you a call or email tomorrow. Thanks.
Posts: 298 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
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