This is topic Getting a new e-caller...help in forum Calls and Gear forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 26, 2004, 12:11 PM:
Hi Guys.
I have a dilemma. I need to upgrade from my Cabellas tape caller to a digital. I ordered/back-ordered a J.S. Bushwhacker and extra cards from Cabellas. A week later I received an order cancellation from them. Aparently Hunter specialties can't produce until May.
I e-mailed H.S and found out (God loves me)that the Bushwhacker, when it't available, will weigh 7 plus pounds. I don't think so.
Currently, I have it boiled down between Foxpro and Loudmouth. I have to think that there are some of you out there that have used both(or other e-callers). I would respect your input. Which is the better machine, Re; sound clarity, ease of adding sounds, volume? I don't think I'd ever setup more than 100yds from the speaker so Foxpro's 700 yd claim is moot. Also, they weigh about the same, super-light.
Second question; Is there a better machine that you might recommend?
Thanks a bunch.
Bud
[ December 26, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Bud/OR ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 26, 2004, 02:10 PM:
Bud, since you asked I'll try to be as objective as possible. I have a Loudmouth. A few of my friends who are members of this board are Foxpro field staff and I have hunted over their callers. At this point I see little difference in the merits of each machine. Function, sound quality, design are all similar, as one would expect knowing that Wayne Buckley designed both callers. I like Wayne, good man, and he has had a very tough time getting his caller to market. I admire his grit and resolve. He won't quit. Dave and Cal and Byron and Jay, like and respect Mike Dillon of Foxpro. I think highly of them and their opinions. So at this point I would have to say that you can't go wrong with either machine.
That said, if I could wait for a relatively short time before buying a caller I would do so. There are some innovations in the making that will make a difference to you.
[ December 26, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on December 26, 2004, 03:32 PM:
Mr. Higgins,
Very well said!
Carl
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on December 26, 2004, 04:09 PM:
Rich; Well said;
But you opened the door... What type of innovations are possibly in the works with any of these e-callers???
Thanks.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 26, 2004, 05:20 PM:
Bud,
I bought a Foxpro a year ago, while waiting on a few new things to come out from JS/HS Still waiting.
I got the cheaper unit with out the remote, but it has a 60 second delay.
I almost hate to admit it, I love JS products, but I haven't used much else since I bought the FoxPro. When I head out in the morning, it will be the Foxpro beside me.
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 26, 2004, 05:24 PM:
Mr. Higgins,Sir,
I love cryptic so I will not question your inside knowledge. What I will do is wait a while to see what good things will come to me.
Thank you, thank you.
Bud
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2004, 12:11 AM:
One thing I noticed, while using a Loudmouth, is tthe sounds are not as good as they could be. But, that may be a thing of the past, since we were using a preproduction model?
As I understand it, Foxpro has quite a large selection of sounds, or you can use your own. Loudmouth may, as well, I don't know?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 27, 2004, 07:19 AM:
Bud, If you have any FoxPro questions I would be glad to answer them. You can ask here or E-mail me.
Rich, Are you saying that Buckley designed the FoxPro? I sure didn't know that. You stated that he designed both callers.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 27, 2004, 08:29 AM:
I'm very partial to the Foxpro as well. That's why I agreed to be a Field Staffer for Foxpro. I had spent my hard earned money and been using one for several years before they asked me about doing the field staff thing. I was honored to be asked. I know that Foxpro has some pretty darn good sounds too, Cal Taylor and I have each recorded some of them.
- DAA
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on December 27, 2004, 10:25 AM:
Hi Rich Higgins,
Now, you definitely have my full attention. Please explain to me how Wayne has designed our units? I will promise you one thing, and that is that my father has designed our unit from the ground up by himself. In fact, I think you will find that just the opposite is true. Our units have been in production for 10 years now. Other people will take a product, like ours, to an outside engineer for design. The sure way to tell is ask them how they laid out their circuit board, or what the purpose of a capacitor is. If they tell you they have to check with their engineer, then that is the sure bet that they did not design a unit. Some people are engineers, and some are chimney sweepers. You get the idea. I hope that what you said was a typo! Give me a call at our toll free no. (866-463-6977) for any information that you need. Thanks, Rich!
[ December 27, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: FOXPRO ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2004, 10:43 AM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, FOXPRO. Glad to have you on board.
I have heard a bit about the history of the two enterprises in question. These gentlemen apparently, were associates to some degree, at one time?
Whatever happened is between them, and not of our concern, as I do not wish our members to have to choose sides.
I'm neutral. Huntmasters is neutral.
Good hunting. LB
PS wow, I must not be as stupid as my critics think I am; since I know what a capacitor is, and what it does. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
p.s.--I don't mean to sound upset, but this STORY will stop in a hurry!
One thing I'd like to point out(respectfully) is that stories on this Board stop when I say so.
[ December 27, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on December 27, 2004, 11:11 AM:
Hi Leonard,
Thanks for the welcome. The 2 were never associated(my father has NEVER been associated with anyone!), until Wayne confronted Dad after the FOXPRO was already in production. He wanted some help in a remote system, which was never done. Again, Dads capabilities are far and beyond that of any other engineers in the industry(maybe I'm partial, but I have seen what he can do, and believe me, there is more to come!)
As far as the STORY goes, Leonard, I was talking about clearing up any untruths, and not telling people to stop. That is why STORY was bold, and not stop. Thanks!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2004, 11:27 AM:
Okay, cool, Foxpro. Just be civil.
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 27, 2004, 11:38 AM:
Gee Fellas,
I hope the info glitch doesn't stop anyone from telling me their views on which they think is the best unit and why. My problem on choice is that I've heard/read nothing but great things about both machines.
Also...The only reason I have this board on my 'favorites' list is that I can't find another board with the huge amount of expertise that I find here. Please do not regard this as blowing smoke up your butt.! It is not! I don't say what I don't mean. This respect certainly pertains to Rich Higgins.
Just my take.
Bud
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 27, 2004, 01:30 PM:
Bud, You are right, there are some great guys here. Higgins amongst them. I really enjoy this place of Leonards. No one was trying to start a "whats the best caller" argument I'm sure. They all work, and everyone has their favorites, just like hand calls. I can pick what I like about the FoxPro over another call and someone else can have a completely different take on what they want in particular. Its all up to personal taste. I just hadn't heard the story about Buckley having anything to do with designing the FoxPro and I'm glad that Mike was able to come here and tell it like it is. I'm not sure if it was a typo on Rich's part, or if he was just mis-informed. Either could have happened and both are understandable.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2004, 01:58 PM:
There are always two sides.
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 28, 2004, 08:38 AM:
Hey Cal,
I really like that thing about the 'Two wolves and a lamb'. Reminds me of how I feel every time I'm called in to talk to my area managers. It's a shame I can't go armed.
Hey Guys, I'd be in Eastern OR. right now if we hadn't been sidetracked getting our hunting clothes scented up. Are you guys still using that Leonard/Rich...Secret sauce that you were talking about last year? I made some. Think it was a combo of cat, coyote and frog urine; bad stuff Maynard. I only get to use it if we're riding in my vehicle...I hunt with sissies. Can't use it this time.
Bud.
[ December 28, 2004, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Bud/OR ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2004, 09:07 AM:
FROG URINE? You guys keep messing with a classic recipe at your own peril.
LB's Magic Mist should be three parts rabbit and one part coyote, and then dilute it with an equal amount of water.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 28, 2004, 10:28 AM:
I think Higgin's "innovation" remark was more geared towards the Electric Rhino. It evens out the playing field for those who are "Blow Challenged".
Watch for the new ads coming out... "Blow Like A Pro"
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 28, 2004, 10:34 AM:
Leonard, I devoted a segment of the video to Leonard's Magic Mist. It's titled "The Case for Misting". I don't give my recipe but one in one clip that has a fox sniffing the rocks and bushes a few feet from me I do say what all he is smelling. You probably won't like it.
BTW, finished the video this past weekend, sending everything back to Atlanta tomorrow for their end of it. We'll see how long they take.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 28, 2004, 10:48 AM:
Congrats Rich! Sending it off HAD to feel good. Only thing that will feel better, is sending out your first shipment.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2004, 10:48 AM:
I hate these teasers! Why wouldn't I like it? Did you use a bastard formula, or what? Whatever works, it's not illegal. LB
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 28, 2004, 01:27 PM:
Leonard,
Rabbit and Coyote....?
Sheesh...That's depressing.
If you had a clue what I had to go through to get good, lure quality, frog pee...My fingers are still pruney...I don't even want to think about getting cat urine. I just healed up...The wife's cat doesn't stay around much anymore, but that's a plus.
Maybe if I make your real recipe people won't gag when it blows back on them. Yeah, Yeah, I bet it's the frog urine that smells so bad.
Poor old dumb Bud
[ December 28, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Bud/OR ]
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on December 28, 2004, 07:47 PM:
You should have sidestepped the mix and just gone hunting this time. :>) By the way, where the hell are you finding frogs around here this time of year? Those probably aint frog in the millrace, you know. Ha ha Loren
Posted by Bill Martz (Member # 378) on December 29, 2004, 09:02 PM:
Hello Boys
I think it's time to clear the air once again.
Mr. FOXPRO said "Again, Dads capabilities are far and beyond that of any other engineers in the industry(maybe I'm partial, but I have seen what he can do, and believe me, there is more to come!)
Reply: If that's the case, why, with all of that engineering knowledge do you guys continue to design analog 4 bit 3Khz sound systems? The fact
is, you really don't need to design anything because the Windbond Corp and others will provide you with an application .pdf that will show you how to apply their product (speech coder). For your info, we were the first to design for any application, CD quality 16 bit 44.1Khz stand alone sound systems in the USA. That was back in 1992. Here it is in 2005 and FOXPRO is still implementing off the shelf toy class audio products which any electronic novice could design and do a board layout overnight.
The second issue that will be corrected relates to a post you have authored relative to the term volume.
Mr. FOXPRO said " I believe you are looking for a decibal rating. This is how volume is measured. Wattage does not mean anything in correlation with volume. Our system, depending on what sound you are measuring, can achieve volumes of 115+ db.
Reply: The decible level of a speaker in large part depicts the efficiency of a speaker. It's a very misleading spec. regarding volume.
Example: Mr. FOXPRO states that his speaker which is typically used for alarm systems, not audio, produces 115Db plus spl levels. If you believe that the decible level of speaker equates to its max volume, then that must mean the the FOXPRO is louder than the Wildlife Technologies system because our speaker, which is designed to produce quality audio will only reach 113Db SPL. Well let me tell you boys, it aint so. The FOXPRO produces about 1 watt of audio power. Our system produces approx. 14 watts of audio power. It will blow the FOXPRO off the table. These are real facts formed by real electrical engineering benchmarks. I also see that GS is now saying that the volume produced by a speaker is directly porportional to the power produced in the power amplifier. I wonder where he learned that from. I remember when he was selling 3 different speakers with his tape player. The speaker that shipped with the caller, a mid range speaker (15 watts), and a long range 25 watt speaker. The reality is that the power amplifier in that tape machine was only capable of producing approx. 8 watts of power. So it didn't matter what speaker the user would attach to the tape player because the power amp only produced approx. 8 watts of power. If that is a fact, why would anyone sell customers higher wattage speakers knowing the power amp couldn't produce enough watts to drive them? Hmmmm.
Mr. Higgins
Please don't jump into this conversation with hearsay and rumors. If you have something to say, make sure it's factual. You remind me of a fat cow on ice. Slipping and sliding all over the place. Maybe you could ask your friend Tom Bectel to help you out. You know, the coyote god in PA that claims to harvest 200 or 300 coyotes a year along with maybe a 100 fox. That same person also told me that he gives about 100 seminars a year. Wow, what a busy guy. Funny thing, when this fellow asked me for a position in our company he confided that he really doesn't call that many animals per year. More like 1 or 2 coyotes a year. Just another fraud like many others operating in this industry. Trying to make a buck any way thay can at the expense of their integrity. By the way Mr. Higgins, thank you for the review on our Coyote DVD. It reveiled your true potential.
The last issue: A lot of you have been using copyrighted, intellectual property rights originated, authored and owned by Wildlife Technologies. What I am talking about is coyote behavior and coyote communications. It's only recently that I have noticed some of you guys are starting to talk like you know something about the subject. Just to let you in on a big secret, starting in 1982 we began to file our intellectual property rights on wildlife behavior and communication. If you want to use our copyrighted info in conversation thats fine. Just don't try to make yourself look like an expert with our copyrighted research. After speaking with a few of you guys on the phone I noticed that you would post as soon as possible to tell everyone what an expert you are with coyotes. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Your friend
Bill Martz
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on December 29, 2004, 11:42 PM:
I’m not an engineer but it seems to me that the top half of your post is basically saying that there is a difference between volume and amplification. Or did I miss something?
I have no doubt you have a fine product. There is no arguing the success that Steve Craig has had with his. Your machine weighs 7 pounds how much of that is amplifier? The FoxPro weighs just over 2 pounds. That alone would swing me more towards the FoxPro. You want double the money for your machine with 24 sounds and $33.00 for each additional sound. I’m sorry but I’m not in your target market, along with many other recreational guys. Not every recreational caller can fork out $849 for a call. It just isn’t practical for most of us recreational guys. FoxPro puts out a call that works for a price that more people are willing to pay. Can you make a machine that weighs around 2# with the sound quality that you require for $400? I doubt it or it would be done. I ordered a FoxPro last week, and I plan on putting some artificially produced sounds of my own on it.
No disrespect intended here Mr. Martz. I find the theory of volume or loud equating to proximity interesting, and like I said there is no argument about Steve Craig’s success.
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on December 30, 2004, 04:28 AM:
Mr. Martz,
I guess the thousands of coyotes that have been killed using the FOXPRO forgot to read your post. And, as I said, my father's abilities IS better than anyone else in the industry. Wait and see what the future holds, Bill. I will not get into a feud with you. In fact, this is the last time I will post on this thread. I have the utmost confidence in our products, and what the future holds for us. I will not lose sight of this because of someone with your reputation.
One more thing to say, and that's it.
GET READY!!
Mike Dillon
[ December 30, 2004, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: FOXPRO ]
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on December 30, 2004, 05:18 AM:
Copyrighted coyote communications..that's funny ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Bill Austin must be spinning in his grave.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 30, 2004, 06:25 AM:
Please Rob, your sarcasm is showing. Mr. Martz, I for one appreciate your permission to discuss coyote behavior and vocalizations , which you apparently own, in our conversations. Thank you.
BM said
"By the way Mr. Higgins, thank you for the review on our Coyote DVD. It reveiled your true potential."
You are welcome for the review. The next sentence confuses me. Is my potential to be reviled or revealed?
Concerning Mr. Bechdel, I had never met him before taping a hunt with him for the Eastern edition of a series of calling videos I am filming. He is a very controversial figure in the calling fraternity back east, which is why I requested a hunt to profile his technique. The audience can judge for themselves if he is truly as he proclaims. Kinda like another controversial figure that pops up occasionally.
BTW, Mr. Martz I would truly enjoy and appreciate it if you would consent to appearing in a Masters of the Call video. I believe that others would enjoy hearing your philosophy of calling, learning your history in this field, and seeing your technique on stand.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2004, 07:28 AM:
Hmmm? Now, who's being sarcastic, Higgy?
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 30, 2004, 02:01 PM:
Rob, Thank you. Very well put.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 30, 2004, 03:18 PM:
Bill Martz,
Exactly what intellectual property rights on wildlife behavior and communication have you copyrighted? Do you now have sole rights to your opinion on wildlife behavior and communication? That's pretty wild ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
. Your right, people copying you should be ashamed ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
.
Byron
Posted by Bill Martz (Member # 378) on December 30, 2004, 07:44 PM:
Mr. FOXPRO
1-Funny, I don't see the word debate anywhere in my reply to your post. I just couldn't stand by and watch a self proclaimed engineer (the best in this industry: Says he) author a tutorial on the subject of volume. Especially since that person technically knows nothing about the subject.
2-It really doesn't matter if you guys do design a new product with better audio quality ( which is highly doubtful )because your sound library is crap. Garbage in, garbage out. If you had any integrity you would have admitted that you were wrong and not responded to my post by trying to change the subject. That's assuming you do know better.
3-Mr. FOXPRO said "I guess the thousands of coyotes that have been killed using the FOXPRO forgot to read your post."
Answer: The number of coyotes harvested with our products is rapidly approaching one million. That includes all of North America, not just the Southwest where even a FOXPRO user can get lucky once in a while.
Byron South said " Exactly what intellectual property rights on wildlife behavior and communication have you copyrighted? "
Answer: Well dah, it's obvious that you can use a computer to find huntmasters BBS so why don't you be a big boy and do a search to find what you're looking for. Buy the way, several of my Texas customers spent the last week hunting coyotes. They shot 83 coyotes. Boy Byron, it must take all of a day and a half to complete a coyote video where you're at. It's a big world out there Byron. Try looking at all of it for a change.
Rob, people like you don't have a clue nor deserve one.
Your Friend
Bill Martz
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 30, 2004, 09:30 PM:
Geeze Bill.
[ December 31, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by jerry (Member # 195) on December 30, 2004, 09:57 PM:
If Bill martz had joined the clergy he would claim to have written the bible as well.
Crap in .
Crap out .
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on December 30, 2004, 10:45 PM:
Dah?
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 31, 2004, 08:00 AM:
Bill said:Well dah, it's obvious that you can use a computer to find huntmasters BBS so why don't you be a big boy and do a search to find what you're looking for.
Answer: I for one am not very good at the computer, so would you please answer my questions.
here they are again. "Exactly what intellectual property rights on wildlife behavior and communication have you copyrighted? Do you now have sole rights to your opinion on wildlife behavior and communication?"
Bill said: Buy the way, several of my Texas customers spent the last week hunting coyotes. They shot 83 coyotes.
Answer: Your half right Bill. There are places in Texas a guy could take several of his buddies could kill more than that in a week, and they certainly wouldn't need a $8-900 dollar boom box to do it.
Bill said:"Boy Byron, it must take all of a day and a half to complete a coyote video where you're at. It's a big world out there Byron. Try looking at all of it for a change."
Answer: This just goes to show your ignorance and arrogance. It is a big world (I've seen a lot of it). Texas is a huge state. Take your own advise and "Try looking at all of it for a change." I live in the North Eastern edge. Got a map?
Bill I have enjoyed our conversations via the internet. I'll bet your a real hoot in person. I would like to take this opportunity to invite you down for a hunt sometime, anytime.
Byron ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on December 31, 2004, 08:36 AM:
Please delete my post.
[ December 31, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: FOXPRO ]
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on December 31, 2004, 08:50 AM:
you two are pitiful.
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on December 31, 2004, 11:04 AM:
Hi Doggitter,
Thanks for reminding me not to stoop to Bill's level. It is easy to get sucked in to his comments. I will let the future speak for itself. Thanks!
Mike Dillon
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2004, 11:35 AM:
Sometimes I think that the MOST controversial subject in predator hunting isn't seventeen caliber rifles!
First, in no particular order.
Picking on Rob is not going to work. I like him. I have never witnessed him being abusive to anybody. He made an observation. You don't insult people for expressing an opinion.
FOXPRO, we appreciate your contribution to the discussion. Sometimes, I think disabling the ability to edit a member's post is good, sometimes bad. For sure, it makes perceptive people think before they write. I have heard some of the history, between Wayne, Mike and John. What's true from one perspective may not be the same, depending on who's stating the facts. Again, I'm neutral, but, as Shakespere once said: thou doth protesteth too much.
Which brings me to another (slightly) biased observer.
Bill, you knucklehead! Everybody knows about you and your product. Yes, yes, you have an impressive sound library. Yes, you have good components, and yes, you push as many buttons as Robb does....
Let the marketplace sort out the relative merits of these products. I believe there is room for all, with the possible exception of Dennis somebody?
Jay. I wish I knew what you posted.
Byron, a point by point debate with Bill is like fighting a ghost. He's a master provocatur.
Takes a special gene, or he's missing one(?) not sure which?
Which is my way of saying that you aren't mean enough. And, that's not a negative. But, if you enjoy it, that's okay. Remember, like Robb; it's just his (weird) way of having fun with people.
Remember folks, show a modest amount of respect, and consider; this is damned cheap entertainment.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 31, 2004, 12:40 PM:
Very well said Leonard.
Cheap entertainment for sure.
I never expected Bill to answer my questions. He has never answered any of my other questions I have ask him. Matter of fact, last time he was here I can't remember him answering any direct questions. All he does is try to belittle anyone with opposing opinions. Sure sign of a man with a weak argument.
I may be twisted, but I got all excited when I saw Bill was paying us a visit. I guess I take pleasure in watching him make an ass of himself in public. I know that Steve and others like him (Bill) and say he is a different person on a one on one basis. I find that strange. Some have even said he is a genius. I for one don't take him (Bill) very seriously. He may just be doing all this for amusement. Bill only knows why. Where I come from respect is given to all, until their is reason not to. His condesending tone has stripped any respect he has coming from me. I have enjoyed this whole thread by the way.
Bill,
Could I see some proof of all them coyotes? Talk is cheap . I want pictures
One more question while I'm at it. How long did it take for you to film your masterfully produced video?
Byron
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 31, 2004, 04:25 PM:
A million documented coyotes? Those are some impressive numbers. Break that down a little farther it is 182.6 coyotes a day, every day, for 15 years. Impressive, if true.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 31, 2004, 04:28 PM:
quote Foxpro
"Now, you definitely have my full attention. Please explain to me how Wayne has designed our units?"
Permit me to clarify. The original concept of the small digital caller in it's present configuration was Wayne Buckley's. As he explained it to me......
Wayne and his brother marketed a cassette caller in the early nineties. Wayne was impressed by the Burnham Brother's CompuCaller and felt it was the wave of the future. If it were reduced in size to fit in a fanny pack it would increase it's appeal. The size and configuration of a Coleman 6 volt flashlight appealed to Wayne. While speaking to Gerald Stewart at a sportsman's show in Harrisburg, they were approached by John Dillon who showed them a small boxy unit that plugged into an amplfier that he had developed. Wayne told the two of them his idea and made arrangements with John to have some remote devices made that Wayne was having made overseas. In the course of their short business dealings, 30 or so remotes were made by John for Wayne, the ideas of the concept were discussed. Wayne had molds made for the caller. Waynes wife became very ill. Money became an issue. The caller project was backburnered by Wayne for several years. John obviously continued with the concept. Wayne says there was no copyright protection and John was free to do as he pleased. Wayne said he would have done so also. Wayne says that if there is any animosity, it is one sided. Wayne still has the original molds made more than ten years ago.
Posted by Predator Down (Member # 453) on December 31, 2004, 06:04 PM:
How do we know that someone did not sit down and tell Bill Martz all they knew about coyote vocal. and behavior. and he could have very well ran and told everybody that he was an expert...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2004, 06:19 PM:
Bill is an interesting subject. No doubt he knows a thing or two about audio, makes and markets a fine electronic caller.
Is he an expert? Well, it's damned hard to be an expert on any given subject, but from what I see, he seems to know animal vocalizations and the technical aspects of sound, a little less knowledgeable on coyote behavior and he doesn't appear to know much about hunting predators, if he hunts, at all?
Just my unvarnished opinion. I give him credit where credit is due.
Good hunting. LB
[ January 01, 2005, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 31, 2004, 06:45 PM:
All true, Leonard. I have seen and played with a WT of Wiley E's. Of course I am still biased to the ease of use and size of the FoxPro of "toy quality". And I know for a fact that with the sounds I choose to use, I can and have called some of the most highly educated coyotes in the country with the FoxPro. The two counties that I work in here have been sheep country for over a hundred years. These coyotes have seen and heard it all. It isn't the easy uneducated. I'm sure that Bill's call would work here too, but so does Dillon's. I still would need some strong proof to belive a million called coyotes in the history of WT. I know alot of Feds use the WT, but I also know that the vast majority of their coyotes are trapped, snared or shot from the air. I don't know many Federal, State, or county employees that spend much time calling other than denning season. We are still talking 66,666 called coyotes a year, for 15 years, to get to a million.
As for Mr. Higgin's entry into the LM and FP debate, I really have no idea as to the whos and whats, but I take Mike Dillon at his word.
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on January 01, 2005, 08:03 AM:
Hi Rich,
If you want to believe Wayne, that is up to you. I can only promise you that his rendition is HIGHLY inaccurate, but you believe what you want. Integrity is something that we value, and apparently, others do not. And to clear one more thing up, Wayne had absolutely nothing to do with the design of our unit, PERIOD!! He wanted a remote made for his OVERSEAS units, which DAD NEVER got paid for doing(and the remotes had NOTHING to do with our remotes). The only reason that the original box was changed was because of limitations on the original speaker(it was small, and could not produce enough volume), so Dad decided to use a bell speaker instead for better sound. The only thing he now needed was a housing, and he found this at a local Wal-Mart. It's funny how once you become successful, people will try to discredit you, but have no problem in asking for assistance when you are not so successful. It truly amazes me. Dad try to offer some assistance with the remote, and now he wants to take credit for our units? I have zero tolerance for someone like that. Rich, I hold no ill feelings towards you, as I know that you are very good at what you do, and I respect that. This issue has nothing to do with you, and only time will tell what company will still be around. Let the past and the future speak for themselves.
Mike Dillon
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on January 01, 2005, 08:56 AM:
My Grampa used to say, "believe half of what ya see and none of what ya hear"
I do not see a point in most of this thread.
I for one would love to meet Mr. Buckley in person, hunt and talk with him, I have a Loudmouth caller.
I would also love to meet, hunt and talk with the Dillons, I have hunted over a Foxpro and highly reccomend it.
I have never seen a WT caller but I bet it is incredible. Once again I would love to meet, hunt and talk with Bill Martz (and Steve Craig)
If I ever am lucky enough to do the above I will be pleased to give my honest report to all of you.
Until then:
I'll beleive half of what I see and none of what I hear (or read).
Carl
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2005, 08:59 AM:
Mike, thank you for the balanced and restrained reply. That speaks to your character. I have no agenda in this matter. I am not a "field rep" for Loudmouth. Wayne sent me a prototype caller a year and a half ago to use in a video with Leonard. As Leonard stated, we were disappointed with the quality of sound and I reported that to Wayne. I have not used the caller since. Wayne informed me that the bugs had been ironed out. AP Jones said that the quality of sound from the Foxpros and Loudmouths that he has in stock are comparable. I empathize with Wayne's hardscrabble efforts to develope and market his caller. I respect tenacity and spirit. Good on Wayne. I respect your success and accomplishments and wish you well also. Everything that I have stated has come directly from Wayne. I usually have at least an inkling when I am being lied to. I had no such feeling when talking with Wayne. As Leonard stated "there are two sides to every story". At least. Ever play "Rumors"? The only reason I continued with this response was at the behest of my son and a couple of friends on the board that thought that references to typos and rumors and reminders of a fat cow on ice may have an influence on my credibility about an issue that IS important to me at a later time. Peace.
Posted by FOXPRO (Member # 491) on January 01, 2005, 09:54 AM:
Hi Bud/Or
I apologize for this coming out in your original post. As stated, it has nothing to do with your post. When I see an inaccurate statement, however, I feel that it is my job to clear them up. Any of the callers mentioned will call in predators, and all are good units. If I can be of further assistance with our unit, feel free to call me. I will be out all next week at a show, but any of the other people that answer the phone will be more than glad to assist you. Thanks!
Mike Dillon
[ January 01, 2005, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: FOXPRO ]
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on January 01, 2005, 02:41 PM:
Hey Mike and Forum,
Just returned from a kick-ass hunt, on the East side, with my boys. I don't think I'll talk numbers though. It doesn't seem safe to go there.
Man...I don't know what went on here, in my absence, but...If asking for helpful advice, and hoping for anecdotal feedback (I think that's where I was coming from) gets this kind of response...I need to check my people skills and delivery. I feel like I'm neck deep in Lake Silly...one more step...
Anyhow, Mike, I know you make a good machine. I'm kind of gun-shy right now to ask any more questions and I will not participate in 'My daddy can beat up your daddy', I'm too old for that, so I wish you all well and I'll probably talk to you later.
Bud
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 01, 2005, 03:43 PM:
To settle this.... If you want to!!!!
The only way to settle the claims made here is for the respected eletronic call makers have an independent lab test them for their claims. And below the test results have an brief explaination of just where each product finished at.
That is if you guys really want to know, or your content with bickering like "girly girls"!!!!!
Happy New Years
Rob
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 01, 2005, 04:06 PM:
Hey Bud/OR,
Since you have sparked a 3 page thread that should probably have answered your question in the first 5 or 6 replies I will give you a little of my experience with E-Callers.
I had the old JS Tape Deck with the black speaker on 50' of cord. Plain and simple it still worked and coyotes will still respond. Now since I let a friend borrow it and break it. I started looking for my next caller. I knew what I wanted in one and began looking for that caller. I looked at all of them.
Long story short I happened upon the WT Caller and saved my money till I could buy it.
Now you will ask how can I justify the 800.00 or so dollars. Think of this, will get a caller with 32 sounds and if needed can upgrade to 100 total sounds. But with 32 sounds you can call almost any thing you will ever want to. So now won't ever have to buy another caller or sound card to be broken or lost. Unless you lend it to a friend who breaks it.
So far I'm constantly amazed at the response I get with the WT over what I'm used to.
Do the other products? Well sure they do.
I don't know if you have ever head someone in the woods using a caller but most of the time you can tell it's a caller and not the real deal.
Recently I was deer hunting and decided to take my WT to the stand. The morning was boring to at about 8:30 when I started blasting my buck heavy rattel and grunt..... Did I call any deer... No my Vol was to loud.. But I did have 3 hunters get out of their stand to see these massive deer that were going at it. What did they find..... Me Laughing as I watched them try to sneak in to my area....
So I recommend you call each of these call makers and ask questions. You may find Bill friendlier than folks have said.
Just my 2 cents.
Rob
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2005, 04:50 PM:
Welcome back to Lake Silly, Bud. Congratulations on your kick-ass hunt. We want to see some numbers though. Damn the torpedos. Give us some numbers.
You truly want some anecdotal advice?
I've hunted both sides of your state. A Walkman with a JS Canine Puppies tape is all you really need in the thick shit on the wet side. $35.
A Sceery AP6 (bird trills, rodent squeaks, cottontail distress, puppie distress, kitten and cat squalls) and an AP3 are all you need on the east side. $35 for the two. Ease of transport, versatility, access to immediate response are all unmatched by any E-caller. I own Lohman CD, JS cassette, Phantom digital and a Loudmouth. I have called with FoxPros and WTs and I am prepared to give you anecdotal. Fire away. Perhaps we can lure BM back. He is always entertaining.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 01, 2005, 05:05 PM:
What the hell are you going to do with 32 sounds? Other than get confused and hit the wrong one, or be so busy playing with all the different sounds you scare off more than you call in?
My little toy quality FoxPro does a hell of a good job with only 8 sounds. But I only occasionally use 4. Most of the time I pick between only two.
It may not be able to be heard with perfect stereo quality in the next county, but what the hell do I care. I think I've only turned the volume up to the half way mark once. Then it was way too loud.
These WT's are a lot like the Bose Wave Radio's. Nice but over priced. ( Be sure to ask about financing options ) I don't need to spend that much to have just as much fun as the guys who do.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2005, 06:32 PM:
ALL ABOARD FOR LAKE SILLY
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 01, 2005, 06:52 PM:
What the Hell would an independent lab know about calling coyotes?
- DAA
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 01, 2005, 07:14 PM:
Swimmin in lake silly.
Well DAA or is it DUH J/K.... All in good humor out here in lake silly.
A lab will prove or disprove if the callers hardware can deliver what it claims and the quality of the sound wheather it is 4 bit or 24 bit.
Hi Tim,
What I do with 32 sounds. Well I only use 4 to 6 calling yotes and sometims more but the other sounds are for when I go say deer hunting, Snow Goose in the extended season where E-callers are permitted, Sometimes it's fun to call coons out of someones attic for them, or you want hunt more than just coyotes.
I'm sure your FoxPro works great. Like I said I used a JS Tape Deck for a while and I thought it worked great.
So I'm back stroking here in lake silly wondering why am I explaining myself when I only tried to give a different perspective.
Rob
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2005, 07:25 PM:
What is a caninus?
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 01, 2005, 07:28 PM:
Mmmmm CANINUS as defined
caninus -a -um [of a dog , canine]. Transf. [snarling, spiteful];'littera', [the letter R].
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2005, 07:45 PM:
Every time us girly girls get to talking about the technical aspects of sound; digital, analog, whatever? I start wondering if a Circe jackrabbit is 24 bit sound, because there is sure as hell no arguing with success.
So much for authentic, realistic sound. If cassette tapes don't work, hell, I started with Port-a-fours and eight track players. I promise, those crummy sounds called a bunch of animals, in their time.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Bomba (Member # 71) on January 01, 2005, 07:47 PM:
Mr. Rich. Bomba ask chief what is word Caninus mean.
Chief say:
quote:
Caninus is something like Viagrialus and Cialiusus.
Bomba still not know. Just walk away so chief feel smart.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Bomba ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2005, 07:50 PM:
I'm still confused. Actually caninus is the lay term for the levator anguli oris, the facial muscle that draws the lips up and back... a snarl.
So your screen name means wolf snarl. If you had meant it to mean wolf you would have called yourself canis lupus, unless you meant the ontario sub-species of timber wolf, then it would be canis lycaon, unless you meant Texas red wolf, then it would have been canis rufus, unless you meant the northern subspecies, then it would be canis niger,unless you meant... oh heck, I'm still confused. Actually I thought you were a dyslexic bad speller.
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 01, 2005, 07:56 PM:
Well Rich, your correct I'm verry bad speller, even worse when I use spell check.
I meant it to be wolf dog.... Thats what I get for wanting to be like the other cool people with kick@ss screen names. LOL
A friend of mine had a screen name once of Canius Castor. What species can you derive out of it?
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 01, 2005, 08:07 PM:
Lenord, I agree there is no arguing with sucess. If you got something working for you then stick with it.
Now that you've brought up the history of e-calling with the mention of Port-a-fours and eight track players. When did they arrive on the sceen? Was it just after GOD said "let there be light"? Did he see Adam struggling to call in a meal and say let there be e-callers? Just how far back did these things start?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2005, 08:10 PM:
Well Rob, a castor is a beaver... everyone knows what a beaver is A canius is what Bomba's chief tried to define... a result of too much Viagra. So a canius castor would mean artificially enhanced boner and a beaver. Which would be a species that never had to leave the house.
Posted by lupus caninus (Member # 484) on January 02, 2005, 04:12 AM:
Rich,
Thats Great
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 04, 2005, 06:23 PM:
Damn. You might know they did not get my new computer built to Jan 3. Now I see what all I missed. On second thought did I miss anything at all.
Like Jay says "There just Dogs". Sound boards, amps, hertz, waves, Independent labs, My ass. Just sit still and blow the call.
UBB.classicTM
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