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Author
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Topic: Danny gets LB excited
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 24, 2009 10:03 AM
quote:
I always agreed with you regarding BAD science, but I am friends with TT. I never could understand why you got so upset about the DNA issue though.
(?) Danny/Loco
The reason is because they hide behind their title and believe the common man is not owed an intelligent explanation. We laymen would just ask embarassing questions that they don't have time to explain, at our level of intellect.
It is much like CLIMATE GATE. We already have made up our minds and now the little people should just do as we tell them. TRUST US!
These guys hide behind this DNA issue as if it is infallible. The only thing infallible about it is comparing a sample from a suspect, (for example) with DNA found at the scene of a crime. There, you have a match, which is a wonderful triumph for science. But, you cannot take that step they desparately want to take and proclaim that wolf DNA is sorta like coydog DNA so there must be a connection? For us ordinary people, this is called a guess? Why they think they can get by with speculation and interpretation is beyond me?
Think again of "CLIMATE CHANGE" where they want to shortcut the research and announce the results based on their personal beliefs and convictions! Throw the Scientific Method out the window and jump to conclusions. This is patently UNSCIENTIFIC. Show me the data, don't hide it. There may be a consensus, but you don't arrive at scientific principles by a show of hands.
They have squandered their professional reputation by acting like a bunch of jealous teenage girls, ganging up on those that aren't as cool, and "with it" as they are.
So, the lesson is to distrust data and question data. You don't solve these things by treating me like I'm an imbecile. (I can't make it any simplier, for ya)
I would point to DNA studies, blind tests where unknown samples, (from the same source) are submitted to different labs and they come back with different results. This is wolf DNA, this is coydog DNA and this is domestic dog DNA.
How did that happen? Interpretation of data. Including bias. Hardly positive, such as comparing those three samples to eachv other and determining that, (surprise) there is a match!
As long as the housefly DNA is 95%+ identical to human DNA, we will have "scientists" reading those "tea leaves" and guessing as to what sort of close match are two samples. Science isn't guesswork.
As far as I can determine, there is no proof that dogs originated from wolves, or that coydogs are the result of blending dog and coyote or including a drop of wolf DNA, which is already present, if you accept the theory that dogs decended from wolves. It's all murky. at this point. We can make exclusions and agree on possibilities, but we can't solve the question with proof by dazzling the population with DNA results. Anybody attempting to do this is a fraud, unless they state up front; this is an opinion.... which we all have; an educated guess. And we little people don't have to back it up with an advanced degree....which these dishonest "scientists" use unfairly.
End of soapbox.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2009 08:11 PM
Posted on another board, this morning by Tom. Tom, I told you I'd give you a 24 hour pass?
Now, (fair warning) this is bordering on a retorical question, while asking for a show of hands, in support. In other words, it shows some bias. read on~
quote:
This is less about behavior than it is about genetics. It is commonly accepted that all North American canids are morphological descendants of the wolf. This applies to domestic canines as well as coyotes. Extensive research and DNA studies have concluded this to be evident.
The question to you is: Is DNA technology "Junk Science", or is it irrefutable evidence that coyotes are direct descendants of wolves? And does DNA testing conclusively establish the existence "coydogs and coywolves", even though the wolf DNA strand is naturally present in all the subject animals?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2009 08:34 PM
quote:
It is commonly accepted that all North American canids are morphological descendants of the wolf.
Okay, right out of the box, this is commonly accepted? Can it be proved, other than using Darwinian theories?
Why can it not be, if you accept "evolution" as fact, that wolves are decendents of (oh, let's see?) coyotes, for instance? Have we seen a missing link that indicates whether there exist north American wolves older than north American coyotes? Kinda the same thing as telling us we decended from monkeys.
On the other hand, there are those people that do not accept evolution, other than survival of the fittest. Perhaps millions of species have become extinct, including passenger pigeons. Just because they don't exist any more, does that mean parrots are decended from passenger pigeons?
I can't make it any simpler for you. Is there complete and total agreement that..."all North American canids are morphological descendants of the wolf". Is this question settled science?
So, where did the wolf come from? Did God create the wolf so that all "American canids" could be decendents of the wolf? Or, did the wolf evolve from a wiggly mass of protoplasm in a primordial swamp?
One day, we might have conclusive proof of such things, but it's a bit shaky to dig up some fossils and base a lot of sequence on progressions from creatures that look similiar, you know, four feet, mammary glands, a furry tail, etc. Use your imagination.
Hey, I'm not knocking it; I question building a house of cards on a supposition. That's all, and I can't make it any simpler for ya.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2009 11:39 PM
Now, who the hell would be calling me from Colorado?
quote:
Extensive research and DNA studies have concluded this to be evident.
Well, maybe? Depending on what research and what DNA studies.
We got this here string of DNA from a wolf. And, you know what? We found a near match in an animal that looks like a cross between a wolf and a dog....we think? Some of us think. Okay, not everybody, but 3 out of 5 ain't bad!
Seems like they don't know what it is, but they found it in a wolf and something else? THIS PROVES THAT THE WOLF IS THE GRANDADDY OF EVERY CANIDE IN NORTH AMERICA!
They created BIG, and then diversified smaller? Or, this chimp branched off and originated great danes, which was the forefather of some prehistoric Canis dirus that was as big as a pony. Then, because nature couldn't make up her mind, she began creating compacts.
Could be?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2009 11:52 PM
quote:
Is DNA technology "Junk Science", or is it irrefutable evidence that coyotes are direct descendants of wolves?
This could be yes, no or maybe? Let's just ask somebody on the Internet. I need support. If I get it, I can stick my tongue out at some pesky senior citizen who is a skeptic.
Get all the support you need. That's what we are talking about. Consensus; bully the dope. Rope a dope. Scorn him, belittle him. Use every trick in the Liberal playbook. He better fall in line, or else.
Well, these mighty "scientists" have shot themselves in the foot recently over another SETTLED SCIENCE, the vastly important GLOBAL WARMING!
But, these tactics worked nicely, for a while. Why can't we use half baked theories in this case?
Why indeed.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted December 26, 2009 12:19 AM
Leonard, How ironic! BAD science is one thing that I am very angry about at the moment and what you just described is a prime example. Dogs no more evolved from wolves than horses descended from zebras or humans from monkeys. I hate BAD science and I am angry by the fact that this terrible freaky communistic agenda we have flourishing right now is even bigger. The agenda I mean. I believe the world ignores and media refuses to publish all of the GOOD science that discredits, carbon dating methods, and evolution.
You may be fanatical in some peoples’ eyes but perhaps I am even more so. I believe there is great evidence that proves things like major Earth movements occurred rapidly – like the Grand Canyon – large catastrophic movements like the making of the grand canyon happening in a couple of hours as apposed to billions of years. I know humans have been smart from day 1. Science tries to convince us that every generation of people gets smarter! PHOOIE! Consider the Roman Empire, the Aztecs. In fact there is lots of evidence proving men were around when dinosaurs were spear points imbedded in found in dinosaur skeleton vertebrae, fossilized human foot prints together with dinosaur prints. WHERE ARE ALL OF THE MISSING LINKS between one species and evolved one???
I believe man and modern animals have only been on the Earth 10,000 years or so. It seems like a fantasitical belief I know but that is only becasuer the public school system has trained us all to believe in evolution. There is tons of evidence for the former and yet all we hear about is what the agenda dictates we are to believe regardless of all the evidence of Creative Design in all of nature.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I just read an article (a day or two ago) that several paleo spear head points was just determined to be no more than 200 - 400 years old by a team of scientists from Northern Colorado. I think they are typically believed to be something like 10,000 - 20,000 years old? I read a book that contained a part about a paleo point being made by an ancient Native. I did a google search for Paleo point and found the article. I guarantee the masses will never find out about this info!
Let me reiterate. I despise BAD science! I few years ago I sent you a great book about it that I had read cover to cover. In your copy of the book I inserted a note explaining to you that since you seem to be very impassioned (like me) about bad science, you might appreciate the book.
I took a course on Physical Anthropology one semester in college. The professor cracked a joke about Creationists and everyone laughed. He asked if anyone was a Creationiss and I think myself and maybe one other raised our hands. He went on to explain that his life research and passion was all about evolution of man and cultures but that evolution is only a theory with extremely little real evidence to prove it! WOW! What integrity for a pagan proffesor! LOL After class he took me to his office and lent me 3 books written by non-christian folks. They were all about various ways that scientists use the Bible as a reliable tool in locating sights of ancient cities etc. Its history is constantly proven to be accurate and therefore is used as a constant companion to these digs and so forth. Very interesting material.
Anyway, it is easy for me to hate BAD science because all we hear is what the mysterious government men want us to know. There is an ugly agenda. And it is hard for me to talk about it without talking about religion and faith. The 2 things intertwine in my thinking and therefore, I refrain from talking about it much. Religion is something some folks consider taboo in their lives!
Anyway, my post about Tom Turner and I being friends is true. I enjoy his posts even though I find fault with lots of his scientificical (joke) beliefs. Tom and I almost never talk, but I like the guy. He really ticked me off a couple of times. Last year he made an assumption about me and declared it publicly. The assumption was proven wrong when I called him publicly on it. And like good men do, he apologized and I got over it.
The comment about not understanding why you got so upset about the DNA is simply this. I read stuff I disagree with everyday but I tolerate it. This is your home we come to play in every day and clearly your perogative to keep what company you want. I suspect many of your friends here would also enjoy Tom’s company and accept him even with all of his beliefs (stated strongly as fact at times). Perhaps there is more to your dislike of TT than meets the public eye here at HM. However, being on the outside looking in, it just looks like you banned a guy because you have different opinions on what is GOOD and what is BAD science. It just doesn’t seem consistant with your policy of free speech and all that jazz.
Anyway, last time I spoke to defend Tom I got a good banning myself – oops, I mean a time out. Hopefully it won’t happen again? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Merry Christmas! Ho Ho Ho
[ December 26, 2009, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2009 12:31 AM
quote:
And does DNA testing conclusively establish the existence "coydogs and coywolves", even though the wolf DNA strand is naturally present in all the subject animals?
The above is a near perfect example of leading the witness.
Al Gore couldn't devise a better question to get the answer he want.
"even though the wolf DNA strand is naturally present"
Well, SOME strand is naturally present. For the sake of argument, let's call it wolf DNA, okay? (wink)
I don't suppose "dog" strand, to use the specific strand and give it another name, is present in wolves, right?
So, what we are saying is, this wolf strand is present and is what makes a wolf a wolf. Forget about another couple billion lines of code, it's this piece of DNA that is wolf in dogs and coydogs and kit fox.
Sure. That seems clear enough. Yes, that's what we are dealing with, sloppy research better known as JUNK SCIENCE.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2009 12:50 AM
Well, maybe it was YOU that tried to call me? It said Colorado; so I just let him talk to Nanc. I really don't want to hash this over with Tom. He has had a couple chances which is a lot of chances because I let a lot of stuff go that wouldn't fly, other places. But, if you want to put me down and basically call me an idiot because I don't agree with your theories, I have a problem with that. I don't think I could trust Tom, and that's a shame. It also causes me a problem. How many times can you forgive and forget? He ain't even family. But, if I close him out, I'm the prick, right? I do not need everybody to agree with what I say and what I think. It doesn't bother me a bit, if I have a hundred people telling me I'm wrong. I won't cave in. I consider it an even debate.
His problem is that he has a tendancy to put the discussion on a personal level and I don't respond well in that situation.
I have your book and I thank you for it, if I failed to do so in the past.
Good hunting. LB
PS I think that is the longest post you ever made on Huntmasters?
edit: did Tom evolve from a coprolite or just because he and I had pizza together, we are genetically related? I need to get to bed, lol (just kidding, Tom)
[ December 26, 2009, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 26, 2009 07:48 AM
A couple of points, if I may;
(1) I hang out now & then at Discovery Park, an extension of the Eastern Arizona University. Free lectures & such. One thing that I've learned is that the 'scientists' don't agree on anything any more than a bunch of experienced coyote hunters do. They squabble & bitch just like we do...........they just use bigger words.
(2) DNA is a wonderful tool. It's interperting the results to meet assumptions that cause problems; then wording the the results to imply what you want. 'Decended from wolves' is not the same thing as 'decended from a common ancester with wolves'.
Loco; If you happen to run across a book by Michael Cremo & Richard Thompson titled "Forbidden Archeology" you might find it interesting. It's not an easy read, but they do stir the pot.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8237 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted December 26, 2009 11:21 AM
Leonard,
Wow, no kidding, that is by far my longest post ever on HM or anywhere. It could be the longest anything I've ever written! I had to write it after everyone went to bed. Lance got a run for his money with that one!
The phone call wasn't from me. Not even sure I know what or when your talking about. Perhaps, TR, Colorado Coyotes, Tim looking for cold weather work maybe, Cal' heading south for the winter?
Leonard, your house, your rules, its okay by me. When you poke at a banned guy with silly posts, It rankles a bit. It has the feeling of tying a guy to a chair and then slapping him. No way to defend himself. I like that idea about a 24 hr. pass though! Seriously - seems like a good idea to me.
P.S. No one thinks you're a prick! Well maybe a banned member. People hang here if they like you and the other members. We've had to read through 11,000 plus posts haven't we?!?!
P.S.S. I haven't spoken with TT in almost a year, haven't seen him in probably close to 2 years. Tom and I have never even discussed the banning issue, he hasn't a clue that I posted the above (to my knowledge). Perhaps, I am sticking my neck out foolishly? Naw, just expressing an opinion as all.
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted December 26, 2009 11:28 AM
Dang, now you tell me KOKO. I could of asked for it as a Christmas present! I Googlified it and read aboutt that book. Amazon has it. I think I'm going to ask my chick for it as a birthday present next month. Thanks for the good tip!
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2009 12:09 PM
I confess to poking rarely. But, understand, I have very few tools and the thing these folks that got themselves banned hate most, is not being able to participate. They got that way because of a big mouth, and pokes at admin. to begin with, and it just kills them not to be able to respond to pokes back. So, to release pressure, they email friends wailing about the unfairness of it all. There are but two people, maybe three that get poked occasionally, and they are still ahead, if we were keeping score. Most of the time, poking means somebody in management likes ya.
But, I'm usually kidding, most of the time. They know it, or they wouldn't send me Christmas cards signed; "your friend". Hey, wait a min. No card from Loony Tunes? What's with that?
24 hour pass, eh? Admit one? Good for one free poke? Interesting.....
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 26, 2009 03:10 PM
I can't say that I haven't, at one time or another, been somewhat offended at your default position of distrusting all science since that is where my formal education and training lies, Leonard. But, the global warming/ climate change issue is certainly giving us all reason to take pause and reconsider just what is being discovered from these works, and how much of the data is being excluded to massage and smoothe a legitimate data base out of the sample group to help reinforce what was once a theory at most, a hypothesis at least, and now appears more and more to be nothing but an agenda.
Having confirmed to me that these researchers went into this process having built the process around a preconceived notion, I think back to when I was collecting data off great horned owls to develop an aging model that we could use to estimate the approximate age in days of nestling age owlets so that we knew where they were in the social imprinting process. I collected measurements from better than a half-dozen different body parts on twenty-+ different birds for most of two months, then spent another month just processing the data set (by calculator, not by some software program because they just weren't available at the time). I was just sure that I would find reliable results from most of the six parameters and was frustrated that the numbers didn't tell me what I expected them to. I sat down with my professor, we went over the data and results and I told him of my frustration. He told me that although I was disappointed that my hypothesis, as stated, was apparantly untrue, he pointed out to me that my data confirmed to him and me that the body parts I had chosen to measure could NOT be used to determine age in juvnile GHO's. I was so caught up in the disappointment I felt from not proving what I wanted to prove that I'd failed to remain objective and recognize that I had serendipitously proven something else entirely different, and which turned out to be just as significant.
Yeah, it put me back to square one and cost me a year as I waited for the next nesting season, but in doing so, it redirected my course and I ultimately found the parameter I needed to determine owlet age (fourth primary feather length in mm, BTW).
Good science means the researcher must be open minded and objective enough to embrace their failures and be willing to redirect the course of their work as they search for the real truth. Some humility and a willingness to admit that they're wrong would be nice, too, otherwise they just keep trudging down the same wrong road.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2009 03:58 PM
quote:
I can't say that I haven't, at one time or another, been somewhat offended at your default position of distrusting all science .....
You are forgiven, if I have left you with that impression. That is not my attitude, and I am not uneducated, believe it or not.
I question authority. I probe universal truth. I play Devil's Advocate. That does not mean, in any way that I am antiscientist.
Scientists are used to hero worship usually given rock stars and movie stars. They think they send messages down the mountain wrapped in the name of the University and their PhD that offers the common people solutions to live by. They believe their own trumped up Bio and collect their press releases from an adoring Media and gulible public.
They are just sloppy and the term, JUNK SCIENCE is quite justified, in some cases.
To set the record straight, I greatly admire science and the Scientific Method; but which suffers greatly, nonetheless from political activism and enviro dogma.
And, you are quite right about the lesson learned. As Edison replied when asked if he was discouraged in his quest for a light bulb filament after a thousand failures. To paraphrase; he said he learned something from each one of those failures.
But, you know? I bet he didn't ask his peers to vote on which of his experimental failures was the most successful? Science is not huddling (cult like) with colleagues that agree with you, and excluding those that have a different opinion. These people, themselves, as closed minded as any group of individuals, educated or otherwise; are the ones giving science a bad name, not me.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted December 26, 2009 05:50 PM
Cripes, I'm glad I'm on a computer instead of the phone tonight. It'd have taken 6 downloads just to read Danny and Lance's posts.
Leonard, you can put me down as another to say let Tom Post. One thing that I can say about his posts, is that he says things that he believes in. Right or wrong to your, or my, way of thinking. But I'd rather hear a man speak from his heart, thank blow smoke from his ass. Tom's a good guy, and it's always good to have someone stand up and say what they believe, rather than follow the local crowd. If for no other reason than to make us think about why we believe the way that we do.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2009 07:59 PM
Yeah, but are you willing to sponser him, take responsibility when he tees off on me, the next time? And, you know that he can't change his stripes, THERE WILL BE A NEXT TIME. You also have to accept the fact that some people are not a good mix, oil and water. I have pretty much resigned to the situation, we have too much history. No skin off your nose if he insults me, you just want him given freedom of speech, like we all want, and we all deserve. I'm not convinced that he deserves it, like all the other members that have a good time kidding around here? He woud have to give me a security deposit, and lose it if he sasses me again. My problem is he would probably consider it money well spent, just to tell me off. Again. Like all those previous times. In my house. I should have to listen to his insults: "I can't make it any simpler for ya"? (ya friggin' dumb ass)
He has all sorts of access other places. Why does he want to bother me? That's all I have ever asked from any member; just don't piss me off. He enjoys pissing me off. He has a death wish, metaphorically speaking.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32376 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted December 27, 2009 10:19 AM
LOL That's 2 good ideas in one week. A Security Deposit?!?! LOL ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2009 10:31 AM
Yes, security deposit. And, since he has made oodles of money playing the stock market, it should be substantial. How much would it take to deter a guy in his bracket?
AND. No MasterCard. No Visa. Paypal, okay.
edit: as a landlord, the other thought that comes to mind amounts to the same thing but might be even more appropriate: CLEANING DEPOSIT
I will probably need to change his diapers! This job doesn't pay enough, I can tell you that!
[ December 27, 2009, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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