quote:

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Doesn't a requisite of being in a 'pack' mean that those animals engage in 'pack' behavior Most notably, hunting as a pack?

Do the coyotes of the SW 'pack up' to hunt mesquite beans? Certainly not! But those same coyotes might 'pack up' to try to pull down an antelope, or deer at certain times of the year. Or whenever the opportunity arises, no?

I would tend to think that a family group of coyotes that hunts together regularly to survive, might show more 'pack' tendencies than where more easily foraged food is available?

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No, I don't agree with any of the above. Coyotes almost never "pack up to pull down an antelope..." I can't say it never happened but it's doubtful?

About the closest I have ever seen is here in suburbia. A pair of coyotes on cat patrol will work opposite sides of the street. When one flushes a cat, which runs across the street, the other one is there and nabs it. Between me and the family across the street, there have been a lot of cats bit the dust to this scenerio.

Other than than, I don't think family groups hunt together at all? So, if it's: "Most notably, hunting as a pack?" that is the operative word, coyotes are not pack animals. (personal opinion)

And now I'm sure somebody is going to "recall" observing coyotes hunting in a pack. <sigh> Sure.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 06, 2013, 10:19 AM:
 
I saw two coyotes stalking and getting a snowshoe hare. Is that a two-some pack? I think that they're so adaptive, that they could go into wolf pack type formation if needed.

[ December 06, 2013, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 06, 2013, 10:56 AM:
 
Best word yet they are ADAPTIVE.
Cal why horses over mules?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 06, 2013, 11:38 AM:
 
Well, first of all, two coyotes stalking a rabbit is exactly like what I see, a pair flushing cats in suburbia. But, a pair does not constitute a "pack" by any definition I am aware of?

Can't argue with adaptive. They are survivors, I will give them that.

I'm going to say, Cal will say mules are stubborn, like Tim. But, I have read that some folks that guide for a living not only prefer mules as pack animals, they ride them as well.

So, I'm a bit surprised that Cal would like pack horses, more better. He must have a good reason? And, llamas are making a little headway, judging by what I see in the Owens Valley and the Sierra's. Of course, Bishop's Mule Days is strictly burros, from what I can tell?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: maybe it's economic, mules aren't cheap?

[ December 06, 2013, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 06, 2013, 11:42 AM:
 
Our coyotes eat our deer in the wintertime here, and they gang up on a deer to pull it down. Whether that determines a 'pack' could still be considered semantics. But it happens, nonetheless...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 06, 2013, 12:10 PM:
 
Nah, a pack is a static entity. Year in, year out. Yarding up in desperate winter conditions defines "adaptable". Come spring and they start to pair up, no vestige of pack behavior that I can see?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 06, 2013, 03:43 PM:
 
NOTE: this is just my personal opinion. If somebody feels differently, I respect that.

So, let's hear it. LB
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 06, 2013, 04:39 PM:
 
If we're submitting votes, I say no that coyotes are pack animals..

It seems females and males get together for breeding, but separate as soon as the male can...

Pups get kicked to the door really soon as well..
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 07, 2013, 05:44 AM:
 
The difference between mules and horses in a nutshell is in most every situation someone has to be the leader or boss. I'd prefer that to be me, a mule prefers that to be him. Therefore me and mules don't get along.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 07, 2013, 05:51 AM:
 
As for the coyote question the answer is always the same. Coyotes will adapt to any situation. They are liquid and will change and fit into whatever space they need to at any given time. They can be pack oriented, or they can be complete loners, depending on what the situation requires at any given time. I personally don't consider them a pack animal most of the time, but they will loosely group together if needed for survival. I don't consider a coyote family group a "pack" because they don't typically stay together for longer than necessary.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 07, 2013, 05:57 AM:
 
Good answer Cal, I was just curious on the mule thing. Once they know their job they just do it even if there not supposed to.lol
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 07:08 AM:
 
Yes, come to think of it, the answer is obvious. You know the old saying: STUBBORN AS A MULE! Why didn't I think of it? But, I've asked a stupid question now and then.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 07, 2013, 09:14 AM:
 
Of course they're pack animals. They live in dens too.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on December 07, 2013, 02:40 PM:
 
At least five coyotes working together on a deer in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0DTgQ8ITtEE

I have seen seven coyotes traveling together several times and and nine traveling together once.

FWIW, years ago I read a book that cited notes from the earliest Europeans in North America to reconstruct game and field conditions as they were before extensive logging, farming etc. In it, the author was surprised to find references to large packs of coyotes on the plains, which are not seen today. Sorry, don't have the foggiest as to author, title, etc.

Coyotes adapting to different conditions?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 02:55 PM:
 
Okay, good input. But, it's all spontaneous, not like a wolf pack that stays together, day after day, season after season.
Just because several coyotes gang up on a deer, acting like a pack in every way, but after action, they scatter to the wind. That's the way I see it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 07, 2013, 03:24 PM:
 
Seems like everything credible that I've ever read mentioned something like, "coyotes may coexist in loose family groups". Key word, loose. If they were truly pack animals, wouldn't calling multiples be the norm instead of the exception?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 07, 2013, 06:02 PM:
 
Come on, Cal. Commit one way or another! LOL

Based upon what I've seen over the years and what I read in the literature, I guess we need to come to some agreement as to how we should define "pack" or "packing behavior" before we can confidently define coyotes as one or the other. Personally, here in northcentral Kansas, I consider our coyotes to be packing animals. Here is why.

Based upon my personal understanding of the conventional train of thought with the ethologists I've read is that packing behavior is defined by several criteria, not just familial relationships between the members. One that applies here is the species' intuitive drive to form a group whose structure serves the purpose of establishing and maintaining a defended territory. With wolves, and coyotes, as is the case with most canines, that collective is referred to as a "pack" whereas with swine, it's a "sounder", with geese, it's a "gaggle" or "flock" and with baboons, it's a "congress". It's simply a word.

Wolves maintain packs because of the benefits derived in hunting large ungulates where their hunting strategies (as a pack) require more than one member to be consistently successful. IMO, the reason for coyotes to maintain packs is to be able to maintain a defended territory within the pack's home range of sufficient size to adequately feed and support the pack. In other words, the size of the territory is a function of resource availability, i.e., food, and by extension, the territory's carrying capacity. In times of abundant food, the territory will be smaller, more easily defended and thus, the pack size will be smaller. And, versa vicey.

Now, we see people arguing between the terms "pack" and "family group". In most of what I read, I repeatedly see references to family groups as a group of coyotes, genetically related, usually consisting of an adult pair (alphas), the last litter's puppies (up to dispersal) and "betas", one or more older pups who are allowed to remain to assist with pup rearing and boundary maintenance. I use the terms interchangeably in writing simply because it's easier for the reader to understand the term "pack" then to have to commit copy to explaining the term "family group", although, IMO, they are the same.

Coyotes can be found in any of several different social structures. Single, are by themselves and are usually unaffiliated with a pack or family group usually by dispersal or loss of a mate.

Aggregates are two or more coyotes who are together either for a brief period or longer, but who do not exhibit packing behaviors such as breeding, pup rearing and territorial establishment and defense. A good example of an aggregate would be six coyotes that are concurrently exploiting a dead pile. They're together, but they don't mark a territory or make any effort to lay claim to anything; they just wanna eat.

And finally, packs, or family groups.

Extensive research in Kansas by Bekoff (sp?, not in my office tonight where that book is) revealed that ~65% of coyote pack members remained together to some degree, even after what we call "dispersal", which raises the question of how dispersal and pack dissolution varies from locale to locale. Already this season, we have killed a double on coyotes where both shared very distinctive markings to indicate a familial connection, where one was a mature dog whose teeth showed him to be several years older, and another young of the year (YOY) coyote. I would not expect to see a mature adult male running with one of his offspring if dispersal, ergo pack dissolution, was as absolute as some would lead us to believe. We often kill coyotes of distinct age difference running together, and we often see coyotes running in aggregates of 2 or more animals in an area we know produces vocalizations "all night long", according to those who live there, well into late fall and through winter, which affirms to me that the coyotes living there are vocal, which Bekoff asserts is exclusive to pack coyotes within their defended territorial areas for the purpose of territorial defense, and intra- and interpack communication. All this taken together tells me our coyotes are packing, as well as their growing tendency to use pack strategies when hunting when our deer numbers are up.

Just last week, I read comments from an area hunter who arrowed a buck. The deer ran off about 40 yards and went down. He lowered his bow and before he could get to his deer, four coyotes were on it. Make me wonder if the coyotes weren't shadowing the deer preparing to make their move on it as we see more and more videos showing with the advent of game cams.

Interesting to me, but forming a pack seems, IMO, to be very much a family group thing, encouraged by the formation of social bonds found only in a family group setting. I received a call this past Spring from a guy who is helping a call company build their library. We had talked over a year ago and I told the guy that, IMO, the big market was high quality vocalizations. Last year, he foot trapped a half-dozen adult sized coyotes, male and female, and had them in enclosures, but that they had not so much as once offered up a single sound for him to record, nor did they seem to really want anything top do with one another. He was frustrated and he wanted my input.

I told him that, IMO, howling was a tool used by the pack to serve as an intrapack bonding mechanism, to announce and maintain hierarchy within the pack, and as an interpack way to announce their presence and maintain spatial distribution between groups. IMO, I told him, he needed to locate and dig out a litter of newborns, raise them together so they would bond with one another tactiley, visually, olfactorily, and by hearing one another as a "family" and see what happens. I really wanted to travel to his place and help get this set up just for the learning opportunity, but I couldn't get the time off. He found a den, recovered six pups and raised them from about two days old to now. He has them in a large enclosure where they get to run around and interact all day long. He tells me that they have their own pecking order, the more aggressive pups defend their top dog place on a regular basis and that he can tell who is the dominant one and which ones are submissive, and that they vocalize enough using many of the very sounds we use for calling coyotes to the extent that he has acquired nearly 1,000 high-definition digital sound files from them so far.

I find it interesting that those other six coyotes who had no relationship with one another wanted nothing to do with one another, yet these six that were born and raised together act, for all intents and purposes, like a "pack" by defending what they perceive to be their territory from intrusion, and verbally responding to other coyotes that sound off around his place.

So, to review, wolves form packs, and they establish and defend territories. So do coyotes.

65% of Kansas coyotes have been shown to remain in somewhat of a close knit family group year round with 35% being out and about as transient and nomadic individuals forming and dissolving aggregates. Not all wolves are part of an existing pack at all times, nor do all members of the pack remain in close proximity to one another at all times. Many people have seen "one wolf" when out and about, just like we see one coyote at a time. That doesn't mean they don't belong to a pack.

Wolves maintain packs because of the hunting strategies they have evolved whereas coyotes maintain packs to be able to maintain and defend a sufficient sized territory and home range to support their needs, and because it doesn't usually take six coyotes to bring down a wood rat. Likewise, wolves don't subsist solely on moose and will exploit small rodents, hunting as individual when the opportunity presents itself. And when a pack of coyotes encounters a vulnerable deer, or a pair of coyotes is tag teaming a pasture full of first calf heifers, they'll employ strategies that require more than one coyote to be effective.

Research has shown that only packing coyotes are vocal while nomadic transients generally are not. Since it is assumed that packing coyotes, aka family groups, are related and share social bonds established through pup rearing, it's safe to say that only coyotes related to one another through their mutual pack relationship, will sound off to one another and as a group. I've always believed this and my buddy's firsthand experience bore that out.

The fact that the variations in cohesion observed in coyote packs over time appears to be much more variable than that observed in wolves is just another example of why coyotes are better able to adapt to changes in their environment. Many moons ago, one of my professors emphasized to all our minds full of mush that what set endangered and threatened species apart from those species that were plentiful was the fact that struggling species tend to have much more restrictive diets, only eating a few specific things, require much tighter environmental conditions, smaller litter sizes that are less responsive to environmental changes and whose behavior tends to not allow them to easily exploit opportunities in the wake of change. Coyotes, yes, are much more adaptable than wolves which explains why and how they can move in and out of packing behavior/ strategies as circumstance dictate whereas other wild canids cannot.

Just my windy opinion. I may be wrong.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 07, 2013, 06:08 PM:
 
IMO, a coyote is a pack animal to an extent like a wolf.

Maybe a wolf hold a family structure a bit longer than a coyote but both exhibit the same structure.

Not unusual to call multiples of coyotes in at all times of the year. If your not calling wolves to the extent we call coyotes how do we know they don't respond the same. Just because only one comes in doesn't mean the whole family isn't intact.

More than once witnessed adult coyotes roundup YOY in early fall and push them back and then respond to a call.

On numerous days of hunting coyotes, especially out of the plane, you see lots of groups of coyotes still intact all the way thru the winter into spring. The time most think they are only singles or pairs. There are just singles and pairs too but I am sure if we had the wolf numbers like we do coyote numbers the same things would be observed in that area.

Wolves like coyotes raise a litter of pups as a unit, all help with the task at hand, coyotes also do, not unusual to have multiple adults around when raising pups. The term "sitters" in the ADC world came from this. Adult coyotes not the mating pair defending the den.

Wolves have some of the litter strike out on their own to start another pack, same goes for coyotes. We see "lone wolves" from time to time across the country. All times of the year, for whatever reason.

Coyotes and wolves hunt in packs as well as by themselves. It seems they both adapt to whatever the case may be to survive. Shortage of food may cause more of a dispersal in both of them. Wolves need numbers in places where bigger game is targeted to a degree just like coyote put in the same situation. If you put wolves in some of the coyote population with an abundance of prey, smaller prey, I doubt you would see the same theory hold as true. Something I doubt we will ever see happen because of the fact it will never be tolerated long enough to develop like the behavior of the coyotes.

Both communicate vocally to gather, hunt, etc. if it was only a single or pair in either species the need to do this would diminish not toally but not as much.. This pertains to the thought about a loosely located unit or pack. Coyotes toward dark will start with a lone howl and it will trigger numerous surrounding howls that move toward the first, gathering, then they all head out. Does not have to be at night can be anytime.

I think if you look at this with a wide view on everything you see the similarities and only the modifications of behavior due to where the two exist.

Wolf packs have those who leave to start new packs for many different reasons as do coyotes or we would just have one massive pack of wolves. The numbers of wolves and the location of the wolves, compared to coyotes, who are everywhere taints the thinking IMO.

It does make for good debate. Good topic Mr. Cronk
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on December 07, 2013, 06:22 PM:
 
Cdog911, well written excellent psot! Lots of quality info with extensive implications. Thank you!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 09:38 PM:
 
Lance, another M.I.A. What you been up to. I wanted to ask you; a month or so ago, there was the letter segment on Oreilly and he showed one from a Lance Homman in Colorado. I wondered if it was you?

But, here's the deal, as far as I am concerned. We have a problem with the word "PACK". Yes, a group or a family of coyotes can associate for some purpose and people want to use the PACK word. As far as I am concerned, unless they stay together with an Alpha pair, for years, they are not pack animals. Wolves are true pack animals, they build a pack year after year, eat sleep drink together and run down game.

Now, if you guys can document a group of coyotes with the same M.O. then I might (kinda sorta) agree. But you can't and they don't. They are singles and pair up in the late winter and have a family unit with pups until dispersal, but it's a RARE occurance to see a gaggle of coyotes running deer or antelope and I bet it doesn't last past the victory meal.

Anyway, that's my take. Of course, I could be wrong?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 08, 2013, 08:21 AM:
 
"Just my windy opinion. I may be wrong."
----------------------------------------
Well said.
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on December 08, 2013, 09:56 AM:
 
Here's a pack at work-or maybe a family-or a fampack.
http://www.thrillon.com/tag/hunters-save-tangled-deer-from-coyotes
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 08, 2013, 05:12 PM:
 
Another pack attack by skilled killers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X86FZdv5yWE

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdSWxXZ2Hi4
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 08, 2013, 05:54 PM:
 
"They are singles and pair up in the late winter and have a family unit with pups until dispersal, but it's a RARE occurance to see a gaggle of coyotes running deer or antelope and I bet it doesn't last past the victory meal."

Maybe that's the case in California, but from what I've seen and read about the coyotes here, that's not necessarily true. I know of a number of different behavioral traits between my coyotes and coyotes elsewhere. Thgouth it was just me, until I ran the hypotheses past a lifelong friend of mine who has done ADC work in OR, NE, AK, and ID, is from KS and hunts here regularly and he says his observations match mine. The way I see it, your opinion is about as legitimate as mine, and Cronk didn't bring shit to the table but a bad attitude.

I send a lot of emails out espousing my never-to-be-humble opinion and am a fan of Bill's. Maybe I sent him something and he changed the state. I can say that when I was a 911 dispatcher, I ran my name through the national database and, at that time, was the only Lance Homman in the world. I'll call Bill and check that out.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 09, 2013, 07:31 AM:
 
"and Cronk didn't bring shit to the table but a bad attitude."
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And C dog brought zero facts to the table. He writes like a bioligist which I don't think he is. Everyone who has been around coyote's know that they form family groups, NOT packs. C Dog reminds me of a know it all from Arizona that once hung out here. If you disagree with C Dog then you are just wrong.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 09, 2013, 07:42 AM:
 
Always entertaining to watch two old farts quarrel.
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 09, 2013, 08:55 AM:
 
I think if we just leave them coined "Adaptive", we'd all win and be correct. Sounds like a politician type of statement, which isn't necessarily a good thing, since I can't stand politics.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 09, 2013, 11:48 AM:
 
"I think if we just leave them coined "Adaptive", we'd all win and be correct. Sounds like a politician type of statement, which isn't necessarily a good thing, since I can't stand politics."
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Right on Wookie! Now I do like the way Randy Roede comes right out and tells us what he has seen. I listen when guys like him talk. Been there and done that, no beating around the bush, no double talk and no politics.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 09, 2013, 06:34 PM:
 
Whatever, Cronk. You bring an opinion. That's it. Nothing more, and IMO, a wrong one at that. You pose the question to begin with then try to pick fights with people who have the audacity to disagree with you. I'd offer up the citations as to the literature to back up my remarks, but you don't have the education to understand the concepts examined in the data. Not a slam, just a fact. It is what it is. I tried to address the fact that the terms "family group" and "pack" are, to the lay person, one and the same. The term "Pack" to a biologist, is a distinctly specific matter. Apparently, that all went over your head. I'm okay with that. Not my job to correct everyone. I gave my opinion and backed it up.

Prove to me that I am wrong.

BTW, still nursing that hard on for Higgins, are ya?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 09, 2013, 06:37 PM:
 
Another BTW, if you take a few seconds and dislodge your lips from Randy's ass, you might wanna take a moment and re-read his remarks. If you agree with him, you agree with me. You don't think people communicate off this board. LOL

Oh, and Leonard, I ain't THAT old.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 09, 2013, 07:41 PM:
 
Leonard,
I do believe that we have an idiot aboard. Probably a Democrap to boot. LOL
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 10, 2013, 04:20 AM:
 
Guy's,
I want to thank you for posting your answers to my original question without including your life story or opinions based on what some self proclaimed experts wrote. I was a little to hard on Lance, but simply don't like his rambling style of book writing.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 10, 2013, 04:58 AM:
 
Ok..........So throw another log on the fire, have some eggnog and wish each other a Merry Xmas.

I can't believe that a medium sized canine can cause so much gnashing of tusks between grown men as coyotes have over the years.

Now; Write this on your gunstocks; THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES WHEN IT COMES TO COYOTES. EVER!!

Oh,......and Merry Xmas to everybody !!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 10, 2013, 07:59 AM:
 
SAGE ADVICE ALERT!
 

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Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on December 10, 2013, 06:15 PM:
 
Isn't a pack something you load up with hunting shit and carry on your back?

One = Single
Two = Double
Three = Triple
Four = Family unit
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on December 22, 2013, 06:13 AM:
 
My vote on this matter goes for the adaptable theory. They pack up if needed but also adapt to be loners if needed.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 23, 2013, 07:13 AM:
 
I seen 7 running together yesterday morning right at daylight. Two leading and 5 chasing across a wheat field...they were about a 1/2 mile out and at first glance I thought the grey hound boys had dumped out on a pair, but it was 5 more coyotes...

[ December 23, 2013, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 23, 2013, 07:26 AM:
 
Maybe coyotes are only part-time pack animals. OK, I am kidding.

But seriously here, how many can you remember ever seen running together perhaps as a group at one time?

[ December 23, 2013, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 23, 2013, 07:36 AM:
 
i called in 11 once. they were all coming across a frozen lake. they were not all together though.
i seen 17 one morning at daybreak in a cut sunflower field. i was sitting on a hill 1/2 mile away. had a good view looking down.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 24, 2013, 01:21 AM:
 
On a very rare occasion we had snow in the desert needless to say I grabbed my gear and went out to one of my honey holes. I got set up on a rolling hill below a larger hill about a half mile away fired up the caller they started coming of the larger hill couldn't count them they were not together per se but all coming from the same direction. I have never since seen anything like that. I don't think they knew they were so visible in the snow.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 25, 2013, 04:46 PM:
 
Spoiler alert! Rich, you probably will want to skip this post as it uses words >3 (that means "greater than") syllables here and there, and it includes some biological references. BTW, no, I am not currently a biologist. Why? because I made ~$30k more working for the federal government than any of the biologists in any of the states where I wanted to work coming out of college. If you need me to, I can post my diploma/ degree here, and send you the phone number and contact information for the administrator of the raptor research facility where I was (gasp) a biologist. Did research, processed data, and presented the results of that work at the 1986 Raptor Research Foundation National Meeting at U. of Florida, too. He'll confirm that for you. Why does that threaten you? Just sayin'....

Anyway, to clarify what you guys are saying and how that dovetails with conventional scientific standards as to "packs", or not.

As I stated in my earlier, much-maligned-by-Cronk post, coyotes are regarded to live in any of three distinct social statuses: a pack, an individual, or an aggregate. An aggregate is a group of individuals who assemble temporarily to benefit each individual, such as when you see a large aggregate of coyotes feeding on a dead pile, or during breeding season when a buttload in single individuals assemble for courtship prior to breeding. An aggregate can be two or 20 coyotes. Number doesn't matter. The main distinguishing feature between individuals/aggregates and a true pack (or family group if you'd rather) is that a pack, like with wolves, share social bonds between individuals, are often of the same genetic lineage (related, Rich), maintain an actively defended territory, and stay within a home range. Home ranges can and often do overlap, whereas defended territories do not. Those coyotes you see out on the frozen lake or in the sunflower stubble may be a pack, but a group that size is likely an aggregate. During breeding season, I've seen as many as 17 together on one occasion as well.

Sidebar: Couple years ago, I was invited to appear on an award winning regional radio talk show to defend trapping after a guy lost his beagle to a conibear in a bucket. This show normally debates political issues and one host is strongly Conservative while the other is a staunch liberal. The Conservative host will often offer up data, studies, and scientific results to reinforce his position for or against the issue of the day. The liberal host attacks his arguments, often by simply saying "That's stupid" and that's it. No counter facts. No qualifying facts. Just her opinion, her feelings. Often times, the Conservative host will rattle off a litany of valid supporting facts and still, the liberal gal just argues how "stupid" his argument is. She has even called him an "idiot".

My point is this: Rich? You posted the question. I answered with my opinion and the information I have at hand that has been studied, peer reviewed and published as scientific fact. As such, it adhered to the scientific method and is reproducible by anyone else who would want to repeat the study. You disagree with my opinion. I don't have a problem with that, nor do I lose any sleep over it. Rather than offering up a valid counter debate, you resort to name calling and call me an idiot. Rather than addressing the facts of the issue, you attack the commenter. Where are your facts? What can you offer to counter what I have submitted here? Your response is emotion-based rather than fact-based.

If I didn't know any better, seeings how you are from Democrap stronghold Iowa, of all places, I can only conclude that your debating skills "out" you as a closet liberal.

Whoodathunk?!?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 25, 2013, 04:54 PM:
 
"My point is this: Rich? You posted the question. I answered with my opinion "
----------------------------
You tell em Sea Dog, you are almost equal to Timmy from Minneesotee when it comes to anything and everything. Your ego is beyond belief. LOL, what a crock of B.S. you carry around. I have friends here but you ain't one of them.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2013, 06:21 PM:
 
Come on, Boys. It's Christmas. That's stupid!
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 25, 2013, 06:52 PM:
 
If ones defines the characterictics of a wolf pack and tries to apply that same definition to coyotes, it isn't going to fit too well. To be a pack animal i would think that arrangement would have to exist in almost all cases almost all the time. not just occasionally as might occur with coyotes. This may just be trying to sort fly sh..t out of pepper anyway.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 25, 2013, 07:03 PM:
 
" Come on, Boys. It's Christmas. That's stupid!"
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You are correct sir. From this point on, I will try to ignore his post's.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 25, 2013, 07:05 PM:
 
6mm/284,
I agree 100 percent sir.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 26, 2013, 05:10 PM:
 
More insults, and thin on facts. In fact, no facts. Keep on keeping on with the deflections, Rich. All I'm asking for is for you to provide some basis for your opinions so we can hold an open, objective discussion on a subject that interests me as much as it apparently interests you. You assert that I'm like dipshit yet you're the one that offers up his type of argument - all personal opinion and nothing at all to base it on.

It's a fallacy to conclude that all coyotes move in and out of pack-type relationships. Bekhoff studied Kansas coyotes where I hunt and determined that as much as 65% of our coyotes here remain part of their family group year-round. That is consistent with what I see in the field, all year long. Yet, at the same time, there are coyotes that are always alone, or two males of the same age that come in and die together. I have no idea what place in the hierarchy any one particular coyote in my crosshairs holds, but I do know that since I redesigned my calling strategies around the facts presented by Bekhoff, and specifically direct different calling schemes according to what I see before me, the time of year, and what is motivating them on that particular day, my numbers have increased dramatically. Now, Cronk may try to back his position up by dropping the names of an ADC man here or there. I've discussed this with a lifelong friend of mine who has spent his entire adult life working for Wildlife Services killing coyotes, wolves, lions and arctic fox and he assures me that I am spot on with my interpretation and how I apply the information.

You can either go by what Cronk says, and his old timey pic of two dead coyotes in his truck from some time early in the 20th century, no evidence of having killed anything else, no useful innovative contributions to the ongoing dialogue in search of better calling skills and knowledge, based on nothing but his "opinion", or you can consider the facts as revealed by valid research.

Eisenhower once said, "Never engage an adversary except from a position of strength." If this site is well known for just one thing, it should be that you never show up here with nothing but an opinion. Especially when you're asking other people to refute yours. I came with facts. Cronk replies with insults. From that first reply and his response, I received emails from a couple different individuals who told me that it's people like him, at this site, that prevent them from participating more. He's just a different shade of the dipshit. I don't care how old he is or how many years he's hunted Iowa coyotes. Thousands upon thousands of people die every year with their heads full of misinformation. Being old doesn't necessarily make you right about everything.

I really didn't come back on this site to get into a dust up with Cronk. I genuinely missed everyone and checking in here daily. But, I just couldn't take timmy anymore. Now that I'm back, I have this asshole to deal with, so I will. I expressed a counter to his position and did my best to offer supporting facts. His reaction to my disagreeing with him, rather than offer up examples of personal experiences that refute the research, or linking to a contradictory study, is to call me an idiot and compare me to timmy. You guys do the math.

As far as Christmas, or Xmas, or whatever, I'm an agnostic. It's just another day to me.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 26, 2013, 05:19 PM:
 
6mm, there are wolves who are transients and do not belong to a pack, like coyotes. Those that are part of a pack, remain part of the pack until something happens that they depart or are cast out. Those that are transients remain that way until they find a mate, establish a defended territory and begin a new pack. Many parallels between the two species, as well as differences that are a function of adapting to their needs. I guess my point is that any one coyote moving in and out of a pack just doesn't happen where I live, and the science has proven that, except when the pack or a mate is removed through hunting or whatever. If it does, it doesn't necessarily negate the fact that the coyotes do form bonds, form packs, and work together as a family unit. The original question was, "Are coyotes a "pack animal"? Those that are part of a family group, or "pack", ARE.

Cronk says I'm dumb as shit and even wrong-er, but he can't prove it. The again, three years ago, he said he was finished talking to me, too. Go figure.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 26, 2013, 05:53 PM:
 
Leonard,
Please consider stopping that ass hole.
Thanks,
Rich
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 27, 2013, 04:16 AM:
 
Eisenhower said" An intellectual is a man who uses more words than necessary to tell more than he knows." So stop it Rich!
Where you and i live there may not be a large enough population of coyotes to display these "pack" traits' cause we sure don't see it. We so infrequently see more than two or three together ?
How about packing up for breakfast again sometime?

[ December 27, 2013, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 27, 2013, 06:54 AM:
 
6mm284,
I am done with this thread. Call me some time soon at 712-322-0168.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 27, 2013, 05:30 PM:
 
i hate studies.
they are to biased.
coyotes where i live behave WAY different than those only 30 miles east/west of me. don't even seem like the same animal.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2013, 05:56 PM:
 
...and, who's fault is that?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 27, 2013, 06:08 PM:
 
Here's the thing. And, pay attention because I have said this before.

For me, the classical definition of PACK is a family group most clearly defined as in wolves. They have an alpha male and female and they do all the breeding, (supposedly, anyway?) They hunt together, eat together and sleep together, as a pack should. The "pack" could be 4 or 5 consisting of two adults and their pups, or if they have been a "pack" for several years, maybe 15 or 20 animals. But the numbers don't qualify, it's the fact that they are a working family.

Now, do not be confused by similar observed behavior which is only a snapshot in time where you might see a damned herd of coyotes running deer or something else in deep snow, or something else. The only thing similar about coyotes is they mate possibly for life and mostly, every year, their pups disperse. Sometimes, rarely a pup or two might hang with the parents for a season, but by the time breeding season approaches next year, the now adult pups will most likely seek their own mates.

As NASA once said: I can't make it any clearer. Coyotes are not a PACK animal in the same sense as are wolves. Period.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on December 28, 2013, 04:18 AM:
 
Very well and concisely sums it up leonard......amen!
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on December 28, 2013, 06:13 AM:
 
Leonard I think you hit it right on the head. Never seen coyotes acting like a true pack. I have seen more than two coyotes running together, but as Leonard said they were just a family group that the pups had not left yet. Everyone has there own opinion, may not agree with it but that's your right.
 

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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 28, 2013, 09:27 AM:
 
I'm going to rub Leonard's ego and say he's right again.. Just do the damn vote!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 29, 2013, 07:28 PM:
 
I'll agree to disagree. Funny how Cronk hasn't denied being a liberal. And just like a liberal, when someone disagrees with you, you "stop" them. LOL At least 20 gauge and the others had balls enough to stand for who they were.

Stop THAT, cronk.

Okie dokie, I'll let it drop now.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2013, 08:20 PM:
 
Come on, you are supposed to have a biology degree, Lance. You can't be serious?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2013, 07:02 PM:
 
About this issue? I sure am. There are a LOT of things I have observed anecdotally in my life that led me to believe one thing but to discover my perceptions were inaccurate when the subject was actually studied. (Organized religion being a biggy.) Then again, I struggled through three semesters of biometrics until I had a firm grasp of the subject and learned at least two things. Math can reveal the truth, as best as we can, and that not all science is a conspiracy.

Funny how people who have no use for true science are fine with it when the conclusions parallel their reality and perception. Challenge what they think is true and they get all butt hurt over it.

Personally, I have little interest in debating this issue with Cronk. I see him as being too old a dog to even consider someone else's opinion and, based upon his response to mine, I wonder why in the hell he even posed the question to begin with. I mean, for chrissakes, doesn't it make sense that before you ask such a question in a public forum - especially THIS one - you might want to be minimally prepared to defend your position if/ when someone disagrees? Why in the hell would you get all bent out of shape and go to calling others names when they don't see things the same as you when you're the one that asked the question?

Better yet, after the names start flying, you make demands that dissenters be ousted. I have tongue in cheek stated that Cronk "might" be a liberal. Hell, it couldn't be any clearer at this point. Clearly Saul Alinski, Rules for Radicals, attempt to discredit and destroy anyone that disagrees with your position.

BTW, Rich, do you or anyone else in "The Party" have a well used copy of that I could buy cheap? Wouldn't spend my hard-earned cash to buy it new and I figure you must have a case or two of them lying around.

As far as the coyotes go, one thing that I find most amazing about vocalizations and how coyotes communicate with one another is that the meaning of a given sound here appears to be very close to the same as where any of you live. This tells me that their communication skills (ergo behavior) is organically based and intuitive and not a function of their local environment. Knowing what the studies revealed on Kansas coyotes as far as the cohesion between pack members year-round, I just don't see it as that great of a leap to consider that other behavioral traits - including packing behavior - isn't consistent across their range as well.

One thing the degree and all that biometrics taught me is that what you see isn't fact until the math proves it to be true. Your anecdotal observations are not valid data, as true as they may seem to be to you. They're your experiences, and as true as they may seem, they simply are not representative of the whole and never will be.

Therefore, my position is this: The studies of coyotes where I live demonstrated that 60-70% of coyotes stay together in family groups year-round, maintain actively defended territories within home ranges, and as has been observed frequently the past ten years in Kansas, exploit pack hunting strategies when pursuing large food sources such as deer. Are coyotes adaptable to the extent that they can survive as individuals? Certainly, thus the fact that they have survived better than wolves. All just rehashing stuff I posted earlier.

Let's close the circle. Cronk inquired,

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I recently ran across a fellow who claims that coyote's are pack animals. I say they are not. What do you guys say?

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The entertainment value of this site that keeps me coming back!

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