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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on May 19, 2013, 07:08 AM:
Have any of you guys found a rest or shooting support that allows you to easily convert from a sitting position to shooting from a prone position or visa versa with a high degree of stability?
A lot of the calling I have done in SD was from a prone position due to the prairie grass situation that is available. Prone is certainly ideal when you can achieve it. Unfortunately, different country (rolling hills with sage, soapweeds, etc.) is not conducive to the prone position.
In rolling hills with sage or soap weeds (sandhill country), you are going to have to convert to a sitting position or you are going to spend a lot of time searching for prone spots and passing up a lot of good stands.
After many years of calling in both situations, I settled in on an 8" to 12" Harris Bipod(guessing on length) permanently attached to my rifle for prone situations and a rear stock rest (thank you Quinton) as well as a pair of shooting sticks for sitting positions. That worked fine until the calling craze created a situation of coyotes hanging out there at farther ranges which necessitates a higher degree of stability from the sitting position.
I have used and do not like the extended Harris bipod as used on Predator Quest because it is hard to maneuver in the taller sage I like to use to hide myself from a sitting position. I am talking about not wanting to move it into position by raising it up and swinging it let alone trying to swing on coyote #2 as it's running.
Of course I realize that you can camoflauge yourself in many situations (snow camo or white on snow cover) to where you are practically invisible until you are skylined.
The biggest thing I am looking for is more stability from a sitting position with ease of changing from sitting to prone.
I'd like to know if any of you have mastered this problem with modern equipment that I might not know about.
I am thinking in terms of something that supports both ends of the gun with tripod stability that is easily adjustable which, if flipped upside down or easily changed, could act as a short bipod for prone positions.
To be honest, I am not sure what the solution is but I know what I need to make 300 - 400 yard shots from a sitting position. I am getting older and I am not as steady off shooting sticks as I used to be.
~SH~
[ May 19, 2013, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 19, 2013, 07:20 AM:
The mother of all questions!I'll be watching closely as I couldn't have phrased it better.An agonizing problem that I've tried many assorted things to solve.Some spendy,some gimmicky,most too heavy and unwieldy,none that fully answered it.
For what it's worth,I'm near thinking it will involve creative modification of a backpack that will sit high enuf to shoot sitting but scrunch down enuf for prone.I'm close to removing the sand from an old bench bag(or 2),sewing it on my pack and experimenting with it.Most of my calling is late season though and many don't carry packs so....
[ May 19, 2013, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 19, 2013, 08:17 AM:
Ha,a sample of things that don't work.This from my gun room only-without a search in the shop that I'm sure would really embarrass me.
Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on May 19, 2013, 09:36 AM:
Oh dear.... That is a tall order, Wiley. I have a collection similar to DiYi's. 9 times out of 10 I end up packing the cheap wooden HS sticks. Bog-Pod makes a fancy adjustable tripod and a rifle rest accessory (purchased separately), but it wouldn't help with prone. It will also set you back about the cost of another rifle, though...
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on May 19, 2013, 10:07 AM:
I've tried a bunch too, but once I started using the Vern Howey sticks, my search ended. I really like them, but I always shoot from a sitting position whether it's from a stool or on my butt.
A buddy of mine actually made me an exact copy of them too. I'm pretty bad about losing my sticks for some reason.
Anyway, I very rarely shoot prone so I've never had your problem. But, I gave it some thought, and this is where I'd start. Home made.
If you were to make your own shooting sticks out of something like 1"x3/4" oak...
Hinged with a bolt in the middle just like all the home made jobs...
But cut the length of the legs at the height where you'd want them for prone...
Then hinge them again there, you could scissor them one way for shooting while sitting and they would lock against themselves with the hinge.
Scissor them the other way for prone and the bottom section would "flop" over and you'd be resting on the short section of leg.
I can easily see it in my mind, but I'm not sure if I described it right.
I know it's not as easy as buying it and "BAM"...end of problem, but that's how I'd roll until something better came along.
Maybe I just gave up a million dollar idea?? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 19, 2013, 10:58 AM:
Wily,
I have found that shooting from sitting position with my back against something solid is the cat's meow. I sit with my left knee up and rest my left elbow on my leg. Elevation is variable by sliding your elbow up and down on your left leg. Now out in those hills with no rock or tree to rest your back against presents a real problem. I am still thinking about one of those really low seat cushions with a back rest. Figuring out how to keep that low seat from tipping over backwards is still my own personal problem.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2013, 11:29 AM:
The closest thing would be a big pack. Stand it tall for sitting and lay it sideways for prone but then you gotta fill it up and carry it.
Actually I use Stoney point sticks but if they would lock together it would be better... And my solution is similar to Rich's but I rely on my Crazy Creek fabric chair instead of a tree, they're just not always in the right spot. The CCFC allows me to get as solid as I could without a bench and bags and is a whole lot easier to carry.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 19, 2013, 11:30 AM:
Scott, I pretty much settled into doing as you decribed. 9-13 inch Harris on each of my rifles and Howey-type sticks. Before I start the stand, I put down the Harris and position the yoke of the sticks just behind the Harris' base. I am able to take the shot from sitting, but if needed, I can quickly just fall forward on top of the sticks and the rifle lands on the Harris legs ready to go. I like that for runners beyond 150 to 200.
You just can't get VH sticks anymore, so I made a four sets for myself this past summer, modified to better suit the forearm stocks on my 22-250.
I know that most veteran callers scoff at the idea of ghillies, but this is an option. Rather than trying to eliminate the movement involved with repositioning sticks when exposed in open country, conceal the movement by augmenting cover. The big lesson I took away from my research for an article I did on ghillies years ago from a Special Forces military dude who trains snipers was that the ghillie eliminated what he called the "head on shoulders" outline that is so notable. I rarely use mine, but when the situation calls for it, it very easily gives me the appearance of an eastern redcedar tree, a very common invasive around here. Coyotes ignore me completely and the width, plus hiding the outline of my head and shoulders, has been very, very effective. Rich Higgins demonstrated to me, and which has proven just as effective for me on numerous occasions, that a 6x10 foot camo net drapped over your head for the same effect works just as well and weighs about 2.5 pounds in your pocket for when needed. Nowadays, I pretty much go with the Howey-type sticks, Harris pods, and the net if/ when I need it.
I can post a pic of the Howey sticks with a parts list if anyone is interested.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 19, 2013, 11:49 AM:
Rich raises what is, to me, in important question. WTH is the deal with these supposedly handy ground chairs? Nothing to hook them to, and you're supposed to be able to lean back in them like a real chair? Not buying it. They look to me like that would be pretty much sitting on the ground in one of those old stadium chairs, except that when you leaned back, you and the chair both go rolling over backwards. A seat, for me, gives some back support by correcting the angle of my back to my legs. The Speedy Yote seat I got at Cabelas does that as well as anything by putting an extra 3 inches of memory foam between me and the ground. It's attached to a belt/ fanny pack setup with lots of storage pockets. The only thing it lacks is support to keep it from sliding down when walking, so this past year, I splurged and got a nice set of cammy suspenders. Prior to that, I had to hook the belt inside my pistola holster to keep it above my hips. I love that seat as it just gets up and goes with me when I'm done and there's no risk of leaving it behind (been there done that). Three inches of vertical might not seem like much, but there have been times I chose to leave the pad in the truck that, upon arrival at my hide, I wished I'd had it to get me just a bit higher elevation through and over the grass.
That seat, plus good knee pads. My knees are so F'd up anymore from all the walking I do that standing on my knees causes my kneecaps to move laterally and hurt like a bitch. A well padded knee pad is a God send for me, and in country like Q and Scott hunt, means fewer gaddamned cactus needles in my knees. Damn those hurt.
Fact is, much of what the military has developed in recent years can be repurposed to predator hunting very easily. They make this stuff because it fills a desperate need and is relatively available for a decent price. Being in an army town, I don't have to drive far to find surplus, and guys who can show me how to use it better.
[ May 19, 2013, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on May 19, 2013, 12:12 PM:
C,
Please post a pic of the Howey's and parts needed. I'd like to check them out. Thanks!
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 19, 2013, 12:54 PM:
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on May 19, 2013, 02:53 PM:
Thanks for the ideas so far guys but I am already using shooting sticks and a back rest seat pad for additional stability from the sitting position. Those crosshairs are still bouncing too much for those longer shots. I am looking for the same third point of stabilization that I have from the prone position for the sitting position as well as being able to convert it to prone shooting somehow. Yes it's a tall order but I know the creativity is out there.
I will try to describe the concept I am thinking of. In addition to a regular shooting stick, I am thinking of some sort of single stick with a "U" bracket to stabilize the stock of the rifle as well as the forearm in the event that I cannot get prone. Perhaps the old Mike Dick "shooters stick" along with my regular shooting sticks might be the answer but it's going to take a little more time than I might have.
I will have to check out the Bog Pod concept.
TA I already have the same prone setup you have with stock stabilizer which was one of the best tips I learned from Quinton. I hadn't seen it before I saw Q use it. That was a great idea and a long time in coming and now popular amongst many long distance shooters.
Forget the prone position, it's already covered. I have no problems with stabilization with Q's setup and it's fast. I am looking for the same concept for the sitting position.
Keep those ideas coming, perhaps the concept is out there or perhaps we are about to come up with it.
~SH~
[ May 19, 2013, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 19, 2013, 03:37 PM:
Scott, this seems to be close to wshat you're seeking. Right?
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Shooting-Accessories/Benches-Rests%7C/pc/104792580/c/104769180/sc/104212080/Caldwell174-DeadShot-FieldPod/1209592.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog %2Fbrowse%2Fbenches-rests%2F_%2FN-1100226%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104212080%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104791680%253Bcat104792580%253Bcat104769180&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104791680%3Bcat104792580%3 Bcat104769180%3Bcat104212080
Don't know anyone whose used one, but it looks like it'd do the job.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 19, 2013, 03:51 PM:
http://www.singleshotrifles.com/buttplates.html
Or you could try fitting a AR-15 trap door butt plate to your stock.
http://www.antiqueguns.biz/guns/ballard.htm
[ May 19, 2013, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 19, 2013, 04:15 PM:
I'm using the bog pod tripod with the extreme rest. Scott has seen it. It's a nice system, but not quite steady enough for 300 plus. The problem is having the ability to go from it to prone easily. The Harris bi pods are a pain and I refuse to use them. Short or long they suck. The short sticks I'm using are the Stoney point rapid pivot, but like all good things they have went to shit also. They started using some really crappy rubber and either are so soft they won't hold your gun or they are hard enough they split. I don't have the answer, but I'm still trying new stuff. On the list of things I refuse to carry is a seat, but that would be the next logical idea for a system to attach to for the rear rest. If the seat had a rigid back and a way to attach it. But then you are going to lose the ability to move 90 degrees in either direction.
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on May 19, 2013, 05:01 PM:
Thanks Lance. I would like to see the Caldwell Deadshot Field pod and see how it compares to what Cal has. Just looking at it, I am not sure you can kick the legs out for quick heigth adjustment. Looks more like a tripod that takes time to adjust but I might be wrong.
Cal's might be the same as what KaBoomR was referring to. I like Cal's setup but was curious as to what other ideas and setups are available.
Tim, I need to think more about the U shaped buttplate but that would certainly keep the stock from slipping. I am still after more stability than that. Thanks!
I am going to check my old trapshed and see if I can find my old Mike Dick's "shooters stick" that O'Gorman used to sell.
~SH~
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2013, 05:30 PM:
This has the potential of a deep subject. Where I hunt, a stool has become almost indispensable. The problem is what height, and a back support....or not?
The stool I have been using for at least three years now had adjustable legs, from about 8 inches to about 12 inches, but I made them permanent, and angled. I like turning it around on a slope but normally, the forward angle prevents the need for a backrest. Besides, it gets you forward, ready on the gun, not leaning back in your easy chair.
My stool has web straps and a welded aluminum frame, and a strap for slinging it over cross shoulder. As an added bonus, I strung some webbing on the side and it makes a good nesting place for my cs24L. It just sits in there ⅔s of the way, very secure.
The sticks I use require that you mount the adapter to your forearm. But, the good part is that I can remove the sticks for traveling to and from stand. The plug into a detent where you can tilt and swivel just about any which way without repositioning. Within reason. Then, you have to pick them up, like any other. But they also telescope by twisting an eccentric, so the length is from about 24 inches to over 36". Can't use them for standing, but they make a longer model that will work, and will shorten enough to use on a stool. I kinda wish I had got that one but, I don't stand up very often, unless it's a shotgun stand.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 19, 2013, 05:44 PM:
Scott I wouldn't recommend the U-shaped buttplate. Takes to much time to get into but would suggest looking at the one that just has the hook on top for contact with the shoulder. Same principle as the trap door on some of the old 45-70's and the military AR-15's. The trap door on the AR folds out and rests on top of shoulder and then is locked down with your free hand, with elbow resting on left knee. Olympic shooters still use them.
I have the Outers bench rest similar to the field rest Lance posted, even when used on a bench there isn't much stability with them..
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 19, 2013, 05:50 PM:
shooting at 300+ yards at a coyote is iffy stuff unless prone for me or anyone i've hunted with.
never seen a 2 legged system that can be rock solid for long shots.
i'm not confident unless i can go prone.
a few years ago, i made a decent tripod that adjusted to about 25" to 48" of so. it had a cradle that the forearm fit into and a velcro strap that snuggged it up. it was the best i'd seen yet but was just to bulky to carry on stand.
Tim, you forgot your favorite rest...
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 19, 2013, 07:34 PM:
I use plain ol shooting sticks like the HS sticks. The rubber tubing grips the forearm just enough that the rifle will not roll sideways or fall off the sticks.
I hate anything attached to my rifle, like a Harris etc. Sticks are light and easy to carry. I will sacrifice long range stability for that. Most all my calling is sitting or kneeling. Laying prone for long periods jacks with my back nowdays so that is out.
I have done the backpack thing and it is a good rest, you can get very solid on em.
Mark
[ May 19, 2013, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on May 19, 2013, 08:37 PM:
Lance,
You mentioned knee pads. I have used a number of them over the years and the very best I have ever found is Byan's (spelled correctly) Protective Equipment knee pads. I would like to order two pair in "Large" size if I could find them but would take "Medium". They are the most comfortable knee pads I have tried because of the way they are designed. They do not cut into the back of your legs and they stay in place. They are also in green camo. I found these at an army surplus store when I worked for the Nazi regime in SD. Let me know if you come across any for sale. Thanks.
~SH~
[ May 19, 2013, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 20, 2013, 05:05 AM:
Scott, Stoney Point makes THIS tripod that uses third leg off their standard PoleCat stix
Once you have that tripod system, you can try mountingTHIS rear rifle support to the third leg.
I have this same setup. Honestly, I was not real crazy about it. But, if you'd like to try it out and see if ya like it, I could send it out to ya. Its just collecting dust in my gear closet, and I wouldn't miss it.
This is what it looks like:
Another alternative would be to keep your bipod on the rifle, and run something like THIS TRICLAWPS System If you already have a tripod for spotting scope/camera/whatever with a quick detachable head mount, you can just order THE TRICLAWP gun cradle and keep it clamped to your rifle stock.
Surf around on that webstie and you'll see how it can be employed.
I have that Triclawp head, and it is friggin' rock solid on the Manfrotto carbon fiber tripod/ball head I use with my vid cam...
Good luck, and if you wanna test drive that Stoney Point gizmo, holler!
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 20, 2013, 05:43 AM:
Scott chuck has that tripod system shown above also. I don't think he has the extra rear stock piece though i might be able to bring it down when we meet up again if you want to take a look at it.
As far as me i have always used the Harris 25S and never had any problems but that is what i learned on. I have used sticks and just don't feel as comfortable on any kind of distance. I'm with bucksnbears though i switch to prone for anything after 250 it seems anymore. Especially this time of year while using dogs i have no problem switching the bipod down to prone without the coyote spooking to "dial and smile". I still need to make one of those "wishbones" for the rear stock those really look handy i'm still using the backpack for the long shots for a rear rest.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 20, 2013, 06:17 AM:
Scott - how heavy is the rifle you are carrying?
A little extra weight can really reduce the movement on the sticks.
Here most of the time I run a short bipod on front and two legged bogpod. In the truck also carry a turkey seat and a dove stool.
Depending on the location, I go prone, short chair or dove stool depending on conditions.
If possible I try to pick a spot where I can go from sitting to prone for the sneaky bass-turds that want to circle.
edit to add - damn Fred where did you find that unit? Don't think I would care for it either.
Stay after them
Kelly
[ May 20, 2013, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on May 20, 2013, 05:10 PM:
Kelly,
My rifle is as heavy as I want to pack. I think I'll try the Bog Pods and see how I get along. Also had a friend call with a different idea that I'm going to try.
Thanks!
Be gone for awhile.
~SH~
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 20, 2013, 07:20 PM:
I'm kinda envious of you guys that can go prone at the drop of a hat. For me to go prone I'd have to spend half a day finding a suitable spot, then groom it so it's free of stickers and crawlys, then roll my mat out. I'll stick to the dove stool and knockoff bog tripod. For a calling rest, it ain't perfect, but nothing is, and it's as close as I've come.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2013, 08:23 PM:
There ya go. Somebody realizes the challenges of laying down in Arizona. Even if you find the right spot, there will be, (guaranteed) ants, or shed cactus cactus spines, or even scorpions, tarantulas and very quiet rattlesnakes. Just being up on a short stool is a hell of a lot better than allowing something to crawl up your leg.
I have scooped pure sand, under a barbed wire fence to crawl under and it's always a sure bet there are hidden cactus spines in that sand and that can ruin your stand, maybe longer if you don't have a loupe and a needle handy.
Laying prone in Arizona is for rookies. I can count how many times I have done it on one hand. But, of course on one of those handfull was when I killed six coyotes. Go figure.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PLUS, THE VISIBILITY GOES TO NEAR ZERO, PRONE.
[ May 20, 2013, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 20, 2013, 09:42 PM:
Simple tool and don't weigh much and good for all angles.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Using+a+Sling+to+Shoot&qpvt=Using+a+S ling+to+Shoot&FORM=VDRE#x0y0
Fold down buttplate. 8th pic down.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/forums/Sneuxfnbqhor3w145afthlli3/posts.aspx?postID=37372
[ May 20, 2013, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 21, 2013, 04:37 AM:
The sling indeed.A lost art.
However,they suck with weather,heavy clothes,etc.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 21, 2013, 08:09 AM:
El Bee;
You left out the part about crawling under a fence while wearing Polar Fleece and learning all about `fox tails` by picking them out of the fabric for the next week. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Crawling around on the ground in Az. = Really bad idea,
Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on May 21, 2013, 09:08 AM:
When I sit down on every stand I have my Harris Bi-Pod deployed and set for prone. I then set my rifle in my Bog Gear rest. That way if I have to change from sitting to prone all I have to do it lean forward and keep movement to a minimum. This method has worked very effectively for me and has been the demise of many coyotes hung up on the other side of 300 yards.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 21, 2013, 03:04 PM:
Getting closer.Maybe doable with a pack modification or two.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/eberlestock-pack-mounted-shooting-rest.html
Prone would be easy,for sitting I need a slightly higher pack.We'll see.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 21, 2013, 03:28 PM:
Better yet,here it is on a pack,now only need the same on the top of the pack as well for sitting.If done right,the camoed(white most of the time for me)pack offers 'cover' as well.
http://www.eberlestock.com/M11%20Stealth%20Rifle%20Chassis.htm
Edit:Sorry,scroll down to bottom to see it on the pack.
[ May 21, 2013, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 21, 2013, 03:54 PM:
Interesting i'm using a backpack for my rear "bag" instead of a accupod or that wishbone that everyone uses i could certainly see that as a real plus for mountain hunting where weight really becomes and issue on the rifle and you're already carrying a pack.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 21, 2013, 04:35 PM:
HERE IS ANOTHER alternative to using a rear sling wedge. I have one, and find it very useable and solid as a rear support. Same logic as the wedge, but you can squeeze the bag with your weak side hand to make small adjustments to your point of aim. Comes at a weight penalty though...
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 21, 2013, 07:19 PM:
quote:
Comes at a weight penalty though
Fill with glass beads instead of sand.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 21, 2013, 09:35 PM:
"Fill it with glass beads instead of sand"
Try using floor dry if you want to save weight. Glass beads weigh the same as sand.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 21, 2013, 09:52 PM:
after thinking about this and my usual set up and ease of going to prone i switched to the small bi-pod which allows for a better prone shooting position and the HS sticks like some had suggested will give it a try for the next few days and get a feel for it that might be a better option. However i kind of hold on to my Harris 25S like a starving child does to his lunch ticket so we'll see
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 21, 2013, 10:26 PM:
quote:
Try using floor dry if you want to save weight. Glass beads weigh the same as sand.
Floor-dry breaks down over time, the glass beads won't. And no they don't weigh as much as sand, actually its about equal to floor dry in weight and half the weight of sand.
ND CK. The rest I shown is made from metal rods and a rubber fuel line. Made by E.L.K. products and it will work in conjunction with a set of Harris bi-pods and won't break and allows you to cover most angles and height..
[ May 21, 2013, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2013, 04:16 AM:
Dang timmy, those 50# bags of glass beads I use at the shop are about the same size as the bags of sand. I've used both in my sand blasters.
Floor dry is cheap enough to replace after it breaks down in 10-15 years though.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 22, 2013, 04:43 AM:
dry beans!!
Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on May 22, 2013, 04:47 AM:
Styrofoam beads!
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 22, 2013, 05:24 AM:
Scott. here's the one i made. its from an adjustable tri-pod. the cradle holds real good. the head swivels 360 and each leg can be set for unlevel terain. it works real well but i just don't use it much as for the bulkyness of it. its the only thing i've found that i feel cofortably shooting off of for long shots (other than prone off a bipod).
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 22, 2013, 05:24 AM:
Which weighs more ....
A ton of sand, or a ton of glass beads? How will we ever know!?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2013, 05:35 AM:
LOL...
I filled my bulls bag with glass beads and there ain't no way I'd pack it further than the range.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 22, 2013, 05:45 AM:
quote:
Fill with glass beads instead of sand.
The Sling bag I linked from Tiger Valley uses polyfill beads (plastic) inside, and only weighs 6 oz.
Sand is not mentioned ANYWHERE, but of course that wouldn't negate an excuse to bestow upon us all an intimate knowledge of material densities and improved rifle rear support construction.
Maybe an email to Tiger Valley is in order to educate them as to how to make a better, lighter, non sand filled support for $20? Wait....whut???
Far as I know, most of the 'tactical type' rear bags on the market use lightweight polyfill beads in their construction to shave weight. Triad, TAB, Tiger Valley, Red Tac, etc...
I use this Triad read bag for fixed position shooting, rock solid prone support. Can stand it up like a beer can for complimenting a taller 9-13" bipod, or leveling on uneven terrain, but I mostly use it salami style...
When I mentioned "weight penalty", I was allowing that the 6 oz. Sling bag was likely a couple oz. heavier than the plastic 'wedge' noted above. Just a guess on my part, since I don't know how much one of those wedge thingys actually weighs???
This is another 'mini' bag, forgot where I even got it from. It has a small clip to keep it dangling from your sling. Just ball your fist up around it for more height and and apply/relax pressure as needed. Works great, as is, with short bipods, and/or bench shooting, like on a Wyoming p-dog town...
EDIT: found it, TAC Ready Tac Ball
[ May 22, 2013, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on May 22, 2013, 05:47 AM:
I use popcorn in all of my bags but its still heavier then I want to carry around
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 22, 2013, 05:55 AM:
Ryan, just bring a beer along and have a snack to shave some weight off!!!
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 22, 2013, 07:55 AM:
Just spoke to two tacticool pack makers-may have my solution soon. The key may well turn out to be the correct sized INTERNAL pack frame-with 2 lightweight rests added top and back ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2013, 02:32 PM:
Tom do you have any AR stocks laying around that have the trap door buttplate on them??
If so would you like to sell one? (just the buttplate) Also need a measurement from top to bottom and side to side.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 22, 2013, 02:55 PM:
This should be good.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2013, 03:11 PM:
Nope.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2013, 04:58 PM:
Not just NOPE, but Damned Nope!
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on May 22, 2013, 06:17 PM:
The type of rest that Scott is looking for does not exist in my opinion. At least one that is practical to carry and use in the field.
I believe if you want to make those 300 to 350 yard shots from the sitting position, it requires the use of a stool. Not the short ones like Tim showed, but a taller version that is 16 inches tall.
It is easy to slump forward over the rifle in the sticks which removes the human profile. Your thighs are parallel to the ground and both elbows are on the knees. This creates the other leg of the tripod for stablility. Left hand is on the yoke for manuvering and of course the right is on the trigger. At times I will use both hands at the grip once in position.
I have used a stool like this one for years and feel confident on shots to 350.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 22, 2013, 06:37 PM:
I second Shaws' fondness for the taller stools, I call them "dove stools", tubular, continuous stock, not legs that poke in the ground, and invariably tip over in soft soil or sand.
I have used Randys' technique, excluding sticks or bipods forever. My elbows are my bipod for long shots,or I use just right elbow on right knee for short to medium shots, raising onto the ball of my foot for elevation if needed.
If any of you guys are my age, getting up from the floor sitting on your ass, or in this case a short legged stool, is almost impossible unless I roll out on a knee to raise up. Rolling out on a knee in Arizona country, as all ready described, will surely get you poked with some gawd damned thing, rock,spine or stickers.
[ May 22, 2013, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2013, 07:19 PM:
Good point about the stools Randy..
I have 3 of them of varies heights and use them according to what I have for ground cover or how far I need to be up from the ground to see.. Don't use them if I'm calling in hilly country as I set up just below the top of a ridge and lay on my side with gun resting in the shooting sticks..
Stools, shooting sticks and bi-pods all have there place on varies stands and I don't just limit myself to using just one. I prefer a stool most times that just gets my azz off the ground a few inches so my knees can be used for support when needed.. What I don't like about a tall stool is you need a longer set of shooting sticks and your body isn't as steady vrs. when using a short stool...JMOP.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 22, 2013, 07:47 PM:
I just like something that gets my butt 3-4 inches off the ground because if I'm on the ground, the angle between my thighs and my F'd up lower back pinches the sciatic nerves to my legs and makes them go numb. That angle also puts a LOT of irregular pressure on the disks in my lower back and have lead to steroid shots there for bulges at least twice. My physical therapist's husband is an avid hunter and she had an idea how I sat to call. When I demonstrated, she showed me how I'd damaged my own back. Factor in using a hand call, blowing and huffing, and you'd be shocked at the amount of pressure that you direct directly onto your lower back every time you contract your diaphragm. This only causes further damage to those disks. Gettin' old sucks, huh? But, it won't stop me. I'll keep calling if I have to use a walker. Whether needles or rocks or unstable kneecaps, those knee pads I noted are worth the money because I, too, have to roll to one side and onto one knee to get up anymore. Ya know you're too fat when you rock yourself to sleep trying to get up. LOL
Like Tim, if I have elevation, I sit down, position my sticks, then lay down alongside them, sitting up and shooting when needed. Otherwise, I gotta have a thick butt pad or stool. Shaw's idea sounds like it has a lot of merit and may have to give that a try.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 22, 2013, 10:04 PM:
I hesitate to post this because (1) It probably won't apply to the original question, and (2) Most of you guys have forgotten more than I'll ever know about long range shots.
But, since the CDude mentioned walkers.......
When I was hunting in Eastern Ore, I had several established stands that I `enhanced` with a (yard sale) walker for a shooting rest. Combined with the stool that I carried in & out it made a pretty nice `bench`. I would leave the walker at the stand. A couple of pieces of sagebrush shoved in the ground around it and I had a blind waiting for my next trip.
YMMV
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on May 23, 2013, 05:23 PM:
Scott,
I'm using the rapid pivot tall bipod. But like Cal said the new ones suck. You can occasionally find a used one that is the old model and they are much better. I played around with a rear rest for sitting. I took the rear rest of the tripod knockemdown posted and adapted the quick attach system from the rapid pivot and put it on my rear sling stud. You can quickly take it on and off and it provides a little more stability but its not perfect.
Posted by Ernie (Member # 3735) on May 26, 2013, 09:53 PM:
You can take a look at what I sell.
Ewcalls.com
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on June 02, 2013, 06:15 PM:
scott, I got the sticks done, i'll put them in the mail this week
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on June 07, 2013, 07:42 PM:
Thanks R.!
Look forward to using them. The pics look great. I'm not too worried about the ability to swing on close runners. I'll give that up for the ability to shoot out to 300 - 400 yards with stability from a seated position.
Thanks for all the input guys. This has led to a lot of good dialogue and some great ideas.
~SH~
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on June 08, 2013, 05:32 PM:
they should be there Monday or Tuesday, holler at me after you get them
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on June 09, 2013, 10:00 AM:
Will do R!
~SH~
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on June 15, 2013, 07:30 PM:
they make it yet scott?
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on June 18, 2013, 08:14 PM:
You got a pic of what your building?
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on June 19, 2013, 03:06 PM:
here you go Jeremy
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on June 19, 2013, 03:11 PM:
Dear God Ryan.....you are a south paw!!!
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on June 19, 2013, 03:42 PM:
God made a few good people, the rest he made right handed
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2013, 10:54 PM:
THAT"S DOPE!
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on June 23, 2013, 06:17 AM:
Ryan, that looks like it would work real good.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 23, 2013, 01:39 PM:
Was out messing around at the range and trying out a butt-stock hook that I made up and shooting at some 300 yd. gongs. I had a pretty stiff wind at my back and found if you can't keep the upper part of your body stable the aiming and shooting on target is still difficult. The hook did help some but still needed to use my elbows on the table for support..
quote:
The type of rest that Scott is looking for does not exist in my opinion
I agree with Randy.. The thing with using mechanical supports or more of them just becomes that much more mechanical, robotic if you will..
" if" you got a looker out there aways and "if" its willing to stand still long enough for you to set up then what ever you got should work.. But if the coyote moves on you then your screwed as you will have to reset the gun and rest.
When testing the hook I made with bi-pods I was very limited to side to side movement, shooting sticks would be better choice. For up and down movement there is also a limit to your elevation adjustments, not enough to suit me.
I think the answer has always been there just need to perfect it and that's shooting sticks with a bi-pod for back up or going prone shots. Also the use of your knee's, elbows and arm.
As for the use of your free arm you can run it under the butt-stock and grab your other arm for added support...
[ June 23, 2013, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on June 23, 2013, 07:28 PM:
Thanks again Ryan.
Tim what I was looking for does in fact exist. I can run the cross hairs up and down on an REA pole at 400 yards without any side to side movement. Will take some getting used to but beats a regular pair of shooting sticks by a country mile.
~SH~
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 23, 2013, 07:41 PM:
Sounds good Scott. What about side to side say 50 yards.. Any way hope they work out for you.....
Try turning the power down on your scope some, it will reduce the amount of wobble you old guys make when you get excited...
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on June 23, 2013, 07:47 PM:
I don't usually have a scope around on the rare occasion that I do get excited.
~SH~
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 23, 2013, 08:21 PM:
LOL
Scott you remember the time I was with you trapping beaver and you had a mishap with the trap.. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
For some reason I see the same thing happening over again but not with the trap this time... Anyway hope you get some long shots in in the next month or so.....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2013, 06:51 AM:
You were doing good, for a while, Tim. I think you are much older than Scott.
Better patent those sticks before somebody copies them commercially.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 24, 2013, 07:29 AM:
I am guessing that the silly "hook" on the butt of Timmy's rifle is for one of the "crew" to jab him in the ass with whenever he misses a 30 yard coyote.
Sorry Leonard, I could not help myself.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 24, 2013, 07:14 PM:
quote:
I think you are much older than Scott.
Leonard I think you have be mixed up with someone else. Perhaps Shaw?
Keep up the wise cracks Rich and I'll pull the tone board from one of your howlers and replace it with one of mine...
[ June 24, 2013, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 25, 2013, 07:15 AM:
"Keep up the wise cracks Rich and I'll pull the tone board from one of your howlers and replace it with one of mine... [Eek!]"
------------------------------
I have seen some of "your" tone boards, and some of your wimpy little calls that you think are coyote howlers. Am I worried? Nope.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2013, 08:32 AM:
Same thing here, Tim. Rich Cronk is a veritable historical monument, like those stone markers you see along the highway. You don't throw rocks at monuments! You show them respect; time you learned something about respect!
Put a sock in it!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on June 28, 2013, 08:05 PM:
glad you are liking them scott, and by the way tim I know some guys that have killed more coyotes off a set of them then you and your crew will kill in your lifetime so what you think of them doesn't matter, plus I wouldn't be making fun of some home made stick after posting a pic of the thing you got there
[ June 29, 2013, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: trapper2 ]
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on September 02, 2013, 05:26 AM:
Welllll? Can we get a review?
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 06, 2013, 09:04 PM:
What little I have used them they are a big improvement over normal sticks. Side to side movement is none existent but it takes a little practice with leg and stick positioning to reduce the up and down movement.
A friend borrowed them to try them out and was hitting targets at 300 - 400 yards consistently from a seated position.
~SH~
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 12, 2013, 04:43 PM:
Thought about it for some time and as far as shooting just coyotes at long range and not having to pack in a bunch of extra tools (shooting aids)that aren't going to help you kill any farther than the basic tools are better left at home or for the P-D and ground hog shooters.
Those extra shooting aids are going to lock up at some point and cost you a coyote or more.
The best tools for the job are shooting sticks, bi-pod, good trigger and your body parts such as arm and legs, knees and elbows ect.. After all that's what most branches of the military use and have gotten by for many years with the super snipers included..
I look at it this way if you can keep the cross-hair on the target you can kill it if you know your drop and wind for the cal/load you are shooting, most misses are shooter error such as jerking the trigger, poor scope and eye alignment and not dialing in for the proper range.
Most shooters should be able to hit a 300-400 yd. coyote and those that can't hold steady enough shouldn't be shooting at that range or farther to start with and should do like Rich C. and just call them in closer.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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