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Author
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Topic: A telling comment from Chris S
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted April 06, 2013 12:28 PM
Chris S says:
"I called the same spot, with the same sounds and from the same stand, 10 different times this year and never had one come in til yesterday; the 11th time I called the stand . Why the same spot and the same sounds? Because I know they are there.
The other times I called; the time of day was possibly wrong, perhaps the wind was 1.2 degrees different or 2 mph slower, or the coyote was 500 yards south and didn't hear the call. More likely, the other 10 times, it just didn't feel like coming in.
I do know, that I don't know exactly why it chose to come in yesterday to the same sounds I've used before, from the same exact stand and chose not to respond the other times.
I know that they're in the area; that's all I can bank on. So, I'll keep going back."
Chris,
When I first read your statement above, I really respected your determination and I still do but your words really made me stop and think about this a little deeper.
So many times we start second guessing ourselves when we are not as successful as we think we should be rather than admitting that we don't have all the answers to success or failure. When I think about all the variables involved in both calling success and failure, particularly in a situation like this, I really have to stop and question the validity in my own theories.
We all know what works, but we can only speculate on what doesn't work.
It would really be interesting to know if this same coyote heard your routine before or whether it was a different one. If the same coyote heard you before, curiousity finally outweighed caution with the same sound from the same location when we would usually assume that each time creates a more educated coyote.
I guess what I am really getting at is that there really is no set of rules on educated coyotes. Does caution eventually wear off through determination? Does repeat calling eventually lead to a level of comfort with a situation that would normally be considered dangerous to most coyotes? Can calling from the same spot with the same sound work on curiosity as much as caution?
There is many behavioral characteristics about coyotes in how they adapt to their environments and what they can endure that never cease to amaze me. I guess that's why I never get enough of working with challenging coyotes. There's just no hard set of rules.
An ardent student of observation once told me that if you ever place your hand, in a safe manner of course, on a trapped coyote MOST will give up their normal fight to survive. The same thing can happen when you walk a coyote down in deep snow. Each time you jump them MANY TIMES you will get closer each time until you could eventually kill them with a baseball bat. They simply cannot deal with being pursued to that level. I wonder if repeat calling doesn't eventually end up playing the same mind game with them?
A fella told me the other day that he pursued a large tom bobcat on a snowmobile for a short distance until the cat turned and charged him. Took the guy by total surprise.
Anyway, your comments were worth visiting this site again. Thanks for that.
~SH~
[ April 06, 2013, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 06, 2013 01:08 PM
I laughed to myself when I read Chris post.
Had the same thing happen a few years ago, I had a area I new a coyote was hanging around and called it off and on all winter. It never showed till about this time of the year it finally came running in. I took a few pic.s with the camera and then let it walk off as I was going to save it for when the fur primed up.. Went back to the same area and called from two different locations off and on again all winter and useing some of the same sounds that brought it in the first time. The dam coyote never showed up till spring time when I decided to go out and give it another try thinking it showed up at this time of year once before, perhaps it would do it again.. Like mentioned maybe the coyote was just giveing up, curious, or perhaps food was in short supply this time of year or perhaps its maternal instincts over powered its need to survive.. This coyote turned out to be a female...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
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posted April 06, 2013 01:15 PM
or perhaps it WAS A DIFFERENT COYOTE!! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 06, 2013 01:22 PM
It could of been, and would agree if we had lots of them around of which we don't, so I tend to lean the other way and make a guess it was the same coyote..
Also from hunting this area all winter there were'nt any signs saying other wise..
[ April 06, 2013, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
Member # 3888
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posted April 06, 2013 04:22 PM
SH says: quote:
It would really be interesting to know if this same coyote heard your routine before or whether it was a different one. If the same coyote heard you before, curiousity finally outweighed caution with the same sound from the same location when we would usually assume that each time creates a more educated coyote
This would be the most interesting info of all. And I would give someone else's arm and a leg, to find out. Had it heard my sounds and come in before and spotted me? Did it just not care the other times? Did it just move into the area? Was it a loner/transient? Was it paired up? So many... too many questions. Unanswerable questions. So, I just keep going back. It only takes that one time for that switch to flip in their head to get 'em moving.
The coyotes in February and March are supposed to be the hardest to call; I've found the opposite to be true, in the area I call.
I could have changed up sounds, repositioned myself, etc. But, I had my reasons for keeping it exactly the same.
Did I mention that it was directly behind an active firing range, where a bunch of wing shooters were blasting clay pigeons at the time?
[ April 06, 2013, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
Posts: 534 | From: Oakland County, MI USA Earth | Registered: Jul 2011
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Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
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posted April 06, 2013 08:14 PM
I call a place that's 500yds beside the local gun range. I have taken 6 cats and 5 coyotes off it in the last 3yrs. I don't think the shooting really has any affect on them. I think they are use to it. Have you ever called a place that looks just right but have never called anything in. I have a place on a blackjack ridge with a small creek running down the side of it. I've called it several times at the head of the draw with out any action, move down the ridge to the end of the draw and you call something ever time. It just looks like you should be able to call something up the draw but haven't had any luck. I've tried different times of the day, sounds and times of the year but no joy.
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 06, 2013 08:44 PM
I think they get used to the shooting or even traffic in the area.
At one of the V.H. Mr Coyote contests I was comeing back into town (Pierre) from the west and was comeing up on where the V.H. club house is and had a coyote cross the road in front of me heading into a revine just west of the club house. I told Jeff about it the next mourning. Turns out the coyote bedded down for the day in this revine and when the contest started we had one come out onto the gun range...
quote:
It only takes that one time for that switch to flip in their head to get 'em moving.
+1
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
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posted April 06, 2013 09:27 PM
A few large bucks make their home inside the comfy confines of that gun range. And, there are more than a few little coyote crawl unders exiting the range too. The point of pointing that out is, most hunters will bypass those spots, thinking they're too loud or nothing would ever respond so close to an active range. They think they have to be in no man's land calling. Coyotes have adapted to some insane shit; I don't overlook anything and will go oddball places looking to find sign. It may take longer than usual for them to respond, but, once in a while they will, or won't ever.
You know how car alarms go off and no one even cares to look any more? They're more annoyed than interested. TURN IT OFF! I'm sure coyotes do that shit when someone starts blaring a rabbit sound at them.
Coyotes are a goofy bunch.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
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posted April 06, 2013 09:46 PM
I have a favorite spot that is right behind a state duck hunting refuge, as in, a barbed wire fence boundry is where I sit. One of the absolute most consistent spots I have. Hunters blasting away and coyotes dont give a damn.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 06, 2013 10:15 PM
You two know this as well as me and a few others, just think of the guys that don't and are dragging those big mufflers around on there rifles..
Been watching some of Team Opps from S.D. hunting vid.s over on P.M... They use and advetise the can. Never seen them make any kills that could'nt of been made without it. and in some of there clips with more than one coyote envolved, most of them head out of dodge after the first shot from a suppressed rifle..LOL
I think its way over rated...
Back to coyotes I've seen them lay up for the day just a 100 yds from most roads in heavey pressured areas, along with them liveing in a grove on a active farm or even in some plum brush less than 100 yds of from a road.. They sure know how to smarten up thats for sure..
[ April 06, 2013, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted April 07, 2013 06:48 AM
Well toothless, I guess you'll have to ask your hero Wiley about what's on the end of his rifle. And if he thinks it is worth it. That's what's wrong with your teeth, you keep sticking a boot in there!
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 07, 2013 08:22 AM
Okay, Cal. Tell the rest of us nonbelievers. How many coyotes will a suppressor produce?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 07, 2013 09:28 AM
quote:
Never seen them make any kills that could'nt of been made without it.
Mr. Perfect speaks again. Remind us all again how much actual field experience you have behind a suppressor?
No doubt every coyote will react differently to different stimuli/gun shots. Some react to a rifle shot like they've had a hot cattle prod stuck up their rectum, and some hardly react at all. BUT after one full season with a suppressor, I've seen a whole lot less of the hot cattle prod up the rectum reaction than I used to.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Buy a suppressor for your ears and if you happen to kill a few more coyotes in a season because of it, you'll be happy. Besides, a good suppressor is still cheaper than a good set of hearing aids.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 07, 2013 09:48 AM
Cal I knew Scott has a suppressure for some time...
Maybe Scott will come fourth and tell us a little about it.. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) But like I said by watching some guys use them in there vid. I don't see any advantage to haveing one other than to protect ones hearing.. Ear plugs will work for that and they are alot cheaper.
[ April 07, 2013, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
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posted April 07, 2013 09:51 AM
Makes sense to me, TR.
Mark
[ April 07, 2013, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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CCP
Knows what it's all about
Member # 913
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posted April 07, 2013 10:08 AM
One thing I have learned from the internet about mufflers on my gun.
I built a 300/221 fireball,300 Whisper,300 Blackout or better known as a 30 cal. WTF now days.
So I could have a semi auto low recoiling rifle in the 30-30 class of power. Now when reading these guys tell me I am a complete idiot because I don't use a can and I am defeating the whole purpose of the cartridge.
Sorry I defeated the purpose of the cartridge but for the needs I have there isn't any reason for me to add the extra weight, length or money, I built what I wanted.
One thing that irritates me with the new silencer crowd. Silencers have been legal to own for as long as I can remember. I got on a kick and had several, last one 1992 but once I got over the cool factor the economics, use and form factor it just don't appeal to me as a every time I hunt I got to have one.
BTW:John Wayne would have NEVER wore ear plugs hunting.
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Chris S
"SPECIAL ACCOUNT" HM's Facebook page moderator & runs with scissors
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posted April 07, 2013 10:11 AM
All boot licking and groveling aside:
What amazes me is how Wiley E thinks, it's very impressive. I'm always intrigued by the minute details he picks up on and how he breaks them down. Abstract thinking and never boxed in. It's fascinating, to say the least.
Wear Quad Muffs to enhance your hearing and silence the shot and use a suppressor to avoid the hot prod in the coyotes ass. Solutions!
[ April 07, 2013, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
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posted April 07, 2013 10:20 AM
Tim, did you even read the anything from your link.
quote:
Specifically, they make it really hard to tell where exactly the shot is coming from, or how far away it is.
Now I wonder how that MIGHT be handy when calling coyotes?
Here's another.
quote:
An unsilenced gunshot is around 140 to 160 decibels--that's in the range where hearing it once can permanently damage your ears. If you've never had a gun go off next to you, trust us when we say it's loud enough that your whole body will flinch at the sound of it. A silencer can get that all the way down to 120 or 130 decibels,
I'm sure you can advise us all about how much more or less hearing damage is done when subjected to 120 decibels when compared to hearing damage that may be caused by 140 or even 160 decibels. It is my understanding that as the decibel level rises, the amount of damage rises quicker.
Remind us all to, how often do YOU WEAR ear plugs while out calling coyotes?
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 07, 2013 10:27 AM
About a year ago or so we talked about how a gun blast affects coyotes on a stand, some say it did'nt bother the coyote too much and others said differently. I said it has mostly to do with what cal. of gun you use and distance coyote is from the gun when it goes off and found with useing a 17 cal. vrs. a 22-250 or bigger some if not most of my coyotes are'nt bothered by it too much..
Well you suppressor guys just proved my theory to be right, if what you are saying is true as far as the results by going to one vrs. without..LOL
According to most 104 db. is still loud and you will still suffer a hearing loss, also thats what I have been told by others here when they found out I use my Wt at my side...
I don't wear ear plugs on stand, been useing Walkers quad game ears or just go without since I'm shooting a little bitty 17 cal.
[ April 07, 2013, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
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posted April 07, 2013 10:31 AM
Tim,You're entitled to your opinion but why you'd keep giving them on something you have never used and obviously know little about amazes me.So hopefully,your opinions are given the weight they deserve.
They DO protect your hearing contra to that article.Shoot one,you'd know it.The enhanced muffs are fine,but ear plugs are stupid(and I've used them).Many times I'd miss out annually if I wasn't able to hear howls;pheasants flushing/cackling;grass moving etc-multiple hearing clues that are important.How one could 'call' effectively with ear plugs eludes me.
For me,it's not 'hearing' or 'confused' coyotes,it's the benefit of shooting better.With suppressors I'm shooting like I did 20 years ago.I shoot many cases of heavy waterfowl loads annually and 'flinching' is a fact of life for anyone that does that.Tell me you do that and don't flinch and I'll call you a liar.
With the suppressor,I 'see' them die most of the time and flinching is gone til the next Fall.I don't know a single person that has owned one and then quit using them.Wonder why?
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 07, 2013 10:33 AM
So in other words, you agree that a suppressor DOES have it's advantages? See, that wasn't that hard now was it?
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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CCP
Knows what it's all about
Member # 913
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posted April 07, 2013 10:37 AM
Got some meat cooking in the smoker and wondered what to do to fill the time waiting.
1. Take a nap
2. Mow the grass
3. Watch Tim make an ass of himself.
I think I will watch Tim make an ass of himself.
Tim don't let them run over you with that decibel shit. We know you already have ear plugs in with that WT going around and round over your head.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted April 07, 2013 10:59 AM
DiYi, I've been around them so its nothing new to me. A friend had one till it got stolen out of his truck. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:
quote:
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Specifically, they make it really hard to tell where exactly the shot is coming from, or how far away it is.
Yep I noticed that when I use my 17 cal.s.
quote:
I'm sure you can advise us all about how much more or less hearing damage is done when subjected to 120 decibels when compared to hearing damage that may be caused by 140 or even 160 decibels. It is my understanding that as the decibel level rises, the amount of damage rises quicker.
In most cases your hearing gets damaged from doing it over a long period of time, like sessions at a shooting range or a skeet shoot, the one or two shots from a rifle every few days has very little effect, unless of course you are shooting a very big cal. like a 6mm rem. or more or shooting from the back of a truck..
When OSHA does there sound tests in a work area its for a 8 hr work day, and not just a few minutes..
quote:
For me,it's not 'hearing' or 'confused' coyotes,it's the benefit of shooting better.With suppressors I'm shooting like I did 20 years ago.I shoot many cases of heavy waterfowl loads annually and 'flinching' is a fact of life for anyone that does that.Tell me you do that and don't flinch and I'll call you a liar.
I don't shoot big cal. rifles or 3" loads in my shotty and try to stay away from them if I can that way I don't develope a flinch problem like you have. Proably why I do so well with my shooting...
quote:
With the suppressor,I 'see' them die most of the time and flinching is gone til the next Fall.I don't know a single person that has owned one and then quit using them.Wonder why?
Yep I see the same thing by useing a 17 cal., thats why I use one. Still don't have a flinching problem so I good there.
Yeah if I stuck a bunch of money into something to use for hunting and could'nt get rid of it then yep if it did'nt hurt I would proably keep useing it...
quote:
So in other words, you agree that a suppressor DOES have it's advantages? See, that wasn't that hard now was it?
Yeah it does if you are shooting one of the big cal. but it still is'nt going to get you any more coyotes like some seem to think and you still need hearing protecting when useing one..
Edit to add. I'm not against haveing a suppressor, I might get one some day but only for the right reason and thats just to have a cool toy to play with...
[ April 07, 2013, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 07, 2013 11:36 AM
Geezus Tim, would you just shut up...I think I agree with you, buying a $200 suppresser and paying $200 more for the permit and waiting six months for all that "cool" advantage is obviously worth it. I don't know how I can kill a coyote without it but it sure puts me at a disadvantage, judging by what I am reading, above.
Me and TA are just about the biggest dummies on the Board. <eek> Imagine, I could be damaging my hearing, (what little I have left) by 160 decibels instead of 104! In theory.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS, I find a 28-30" barrel reduces noise, is that imaginary?
[ April 07, 2013, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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