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Author
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Topic: Coyote Bark Question
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ursus21
2nd place, John Denver lookalike Contest
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posted January 10, 2013 08:09 AM
Over at the "other" site they are having a discussion about using coyote barks or threat barks to call in coyotes. While I use a lot of coyote vocals I've never really given much thought to using threat barks. If anything I guess I thought they would have a negative affect on the coyotes and put them on alert. However,coyotes are canines, and I know when domestic dogs get to barking, seems like they all want to go see whats going on. There is a tremendous amout of experience among some of the members of this site. I'm curious as to what your thoughts are in regards to using barks on a stand?
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Leonard
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posted January 10, 2013 09:29 AM
Only in response to a specific challenge. Once in a while, an alpha will show himself, but generally, in my experience, they always mouth off behind brush.
So, what I have done before is very quietly relocate and if done while not being observed, they have come in to a different direction without caution. Only a handful of times.
Now, if you started a stand with barks of any kind, persistent barking, then this can attract other coyotes but what good it does is open to question? In other words they are not coming to the sound as they would to a prey distress. It's more like; I lost my wallet somewhere around here. I don't think it's an effective strategy.
Generally, when a coyote barks, in response to your calling, it's not a good thing. I mess with them sometimes, but I don't have any recommendations that amount to a sure thing. And, more often than not, you are better off relocating and quit wasting time with a smart coyote.
Any other theories, I am more than willing to listen.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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ursus21
2nd place, John Denver lookalike Contest
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posted January 10, 2013 10:35 AM
Leonard, thanks and just for a little more clarification, they are saying "barking" is the sound they are using to start off their stand. They aren't talking about coyotes barking at you once you start calling.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
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posted January 10, 2013 11:02 AM
Barks, barking,and threat barks. All they are is just a warning of something they are unsure of which could be caused by a rancher driveing through a section to check on cattle, a hunter, a herd of horses running through the area or even caused by a strange coyote that has come into its terr.
If I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I got into a area unseen then I don't worry about it and just keep calling. When dealing with a difficult coyote barks or threat barks can be used to help convince the other coyote that there is another coyote out there in its terr. eating its food. One of the WT pup in distress sounds has barks, threat barks in it and will bring some coyotes in to the shooter...
For normal day to day calling I won't use the barks,as I keep most stands non-threatening ..
Anyway for me its just another sound to add to your bag of tricks when calling to a difficult coyote/coyotes.....
I should add if its just some simple barks mixed in with a distress sound they canbe used anytime dureing a stand but you could loose a few YOY or timid coyote by doing so...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted January 10, 2013 11:29 AM
Since coyotes are social critters by nature, vocals can be effective as long as they are not threatening. My favorite sound is one of Cals howls that has lots of barks in it. Called many a pair with it alone.
When I use hand calls, I try to imitate that sound and use one howl and lots of soft barks but I've never tried just barks alone except as a response.
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Leonard
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posted January 10, 2013 12:01 PM
Yeah, we are getting a bit precise. I agree, a sound that includes barks can be good. That's not how I understood the question; which is
quote:
using coyote barks or threat barks to call in coyotes
I look at barks, in response to our prey distress sounds to be negative. I don't think sitting on stand and initiating those barks, or threat barks, if you like, to be a good idea. I think it conveys to other coyotes in the area that there is something suspicious going on, and that seems counterproductive, to me.
Now, I said, in my third paragraph in my first post that you can use barks and it may elicit an approach, if you have time on your hands and you can deal with a downwind approach. Otherwise, I don't really see a lot of value?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: in other words, misting might be an advantage
[ January 10, 2013, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
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posted January 10, 2013 02:23 PM
I think response to barks whether they are associated with a howl or not depends mostly on if it's a lone 8-month-old pup that heard the "barks" or if it's the dominant pair or group that hears them.
Than again, there is the you're busted bark that doesn't lead to anything good.
I seen too many young coyotes get real shy and halt the approach if the howls and barks sound too imposing. On the other hand a pair or group actually might pick up speed going to kick some ass. Like Tom mentioned calling lots of pairs with Cal's sound that has numerous barks in it.
[ January 10, 2013, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
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Leonard
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posted January 10, 2013 04:20 PM
I think we need Cal to jump in here to clarify, Lonny, because I don't see that particular sound as addressing the question. Yes, it has barks or possibly a yip that is part of the howl sequence, but it's not stand alone barks. I think everybody knows what barks are?
I don't know what the "other site" is but I probably wouldn't go there anyway. I'm trusting that Troy has stated the question correctly and I have not a clue what the consensus from the Peanut Gallery (over there) might be?
If they are discussing Cal's sound, that's another story.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I wish I had a recording of a sound I heard a few years ago. We were calling at a quarry, I couldn't even see where my son was, but he was looking toward the interior and I was up on a pretty high bluff looking out at the desert, in the opposite direction. The caller was out in front of me at least 50 yards away and in the flats.
Very soon, a male coyote came towards the call from my extreme right, kind of around the corner, below me. He was putting up a hell of a racket, angry howls and barks and scolding like crazy. I shot him very close to the caller.
Very soon afterwards, my son shot. He said the female and the half grown pup came from some rubble within the quarry and he thought it was a den, but we didn't look too close. And, he didn't have a shot at the female but killed the pup, which was better than half grown, this was just about September, I believe because that's when we start hunting up north. End of story.
[ January 10, 2013, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted January 10, 2013 04:31 PM
Leonard this was brought over from P.M.
Some guy made the claim that he called in a coyote with just barks, then ran out of ammo so he made a rush to the truck for more and then went back to his stand and called two more coyotes in with barks.. No pic.s to back up his goofy story... Then about half the number of guys that posted on the thread also claim they use just barks to call coyotes in.. Kind of reminds me of the old estres chirp thread...LOL
Edit to add. Dennis Kirk had tapes out years ago with barks,howls mixed in with rabbit distress (duplex calling)that have produced when some other sound was needed to bring a difficult coyote in....
[ January 10, 2013, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted January 10, 2013 04:56 PM
I would like to hear Cal's take on this also.
I realize I strayed into the area of barks and howls utilized together, but honestly I still think challenge barks or threatening barks whatever the flavor of the day will often scare young coyotes, but raise the hackles of dominant coyotes. Have I ever just used barks on a stand? Never. In my mind, many of the coyotes will turn tail and leave while others may come in, but slowly and cautiously. Thats not what I'm after on a stand.
I think back to our hound running days and coyotes quite often would come in and check out the barking hounds. It was always a pair or more and they never actually did anything other than check out the new canine in their area making noise.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted January 10, 2013 08:22 PM
My bad as usual.
I was thinking back to another thread that said,
"never bark, barks are challenging and will run most coyotes off."
I don't know who to attribute that too but non threatening barks do no harm but I'd never use them by themselves. Well almost never... It's funny how you remember things like Ed Sceery saying a coyote can't howl back to back. I remember that when hand calling and right or wrong, I use lots of barks and very few howls.
I should add that the last couple of years I don't do much hunting till after the first of the year and don't call to many YOY or singles for that matter.
But yes, barks alone sounds fishy to me.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 10, 2013 08:43 PM
I've always interpreted a stand alone bark as equating to "stop" and is the very reason I use that very sound to bring running coyotes to a stop for the standing shot. I can't recall ever having a coyote redouble it's speed of approach when I started barking at him and have only had a couple actually turn tail and light her up getting out and often because I think they saw or smelled something as much as heard me.
As far as pairing barks with other sounds, I still rely upon what Higgins taught me most days and will precede lone howls with herald barks - very light and "yip-ish" - and challenge barks on a howler as short, abrupt, forceful barks. As a rule, I have learned to never be the first to open with the challenge bark. I've done that to a coyote which is, as yet, unidentified as to it's level of aggression in responding and more times than not, have seen them lower their head, tuck their tail and slink off. Having said that, I've made it a practice, when one threatens me or challenges me, to let them commit with 2 or 3 good rounds, then as soon as they go into the next challenge, jump right on top of them mimicking them. They flat out hate that. LOL Do they always charge in? No, but if I'm careful, I can get them pissed off enough to lock down and just give me the red ass while I reposition for the shot. It's worked well enough and often enough that I keep it as an option on the rare occasion that I encounter such a "problem". BTW, the most recent times I've used it have been in pastures with calf losses and an ID by the owner as the culprits being two large coyotes, very likely mature animals. An aggressive, confrontational sound is sometimes a good way to keep YOY pups that are not my primary concern at that time out of what hair I have left. Just the way I've come to do things, FWIW.
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R.Shaw
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posted January 10, 2013 08:45 PM
In my experience, the types of coyote vocals used is directly related to their densities.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 10, 2013 08:50 PM
I haven't read the "other" thread, but I'll give you my take on what little I know. I think you have to classify all coyote vocalizations including barks into two categories. Aggressive or non aggressive. That's the only way I care to classify. Non aggressive barks will call other coyotes about any time. I have seen pairs hunting use a low very polite sounding bark to talk to each other. Don't know what they are saying and I sure would like to have a recording of some of those. On the more aggressive stuff, it's exactly as LB said. It will work if you are in a core territory and you want to dick with them long enough and providing they don't get your wind and leave. I have had a few pairs really blow my doors off in Feb when bred or breeding and they have a defined territory established and you get in the middle of it and do a little barking and howling. But that and denning season when the pups are little are the only times I would think it to be very effective. But if they are saying it works somewhere else, who am I to argue.
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Violence may not be the best option....
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3 Toes
El Guapo
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posted January 10, 2013 08:54 PM
Shaw, I think you are pretty close, but will kick in territory to add to your statement. Even in low densities territorial stuff will work if you are in a particular coyotes home turf. If you aren't in the core, they won't generally come far to investigate.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
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posted January 10, 2013 09:34 PM
Thanks Cal. And, thank you everybody for sharing your thoughts on the question.
Specifically, speaking about the previous post in response to AR's comment. I'd like to pose another question since I do not believe there is a pat answer to any coyote question.
And, that is, some people report that their coyotes almost never howl and seldom answer any type of interrogation. Additionally, it is my belief that coyotes in the same place, from one day or maybe several days later will clam up or visa versa. In other words, in their world of moon phases, barometric pressure, weather fronts, rain sleet or snow....this stuff affects their behavior. It may cause them to start hunting, quit hunting, stop communicating, and get squirrelly as hell. As I have observed a number of times before; when hunting at night and I can observe exactly where they go and how they do it. As a group, like they all agreed to it, they either all come running to the call on a string. Or, a switch is thrown and from that point on, every coyote will circle downwind, never fail. They are affected by something we don't understand and that includes vocalizations.
When you guys figure it out, let me know.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
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posted January 10, 2013 10:43 PM
quote:
some people report that their coyotes almost never howl and seldom answer any type of interrogation.
At one time I believed this to be true but found out later on that most will answer a locate howl at nite and in some cases dureing the day also..
I'm not going to say what vocals I use but sometimes it takes more than one type to get them going and with hand howlers the same canbe said. I will locate a coyote or a group and then come back later (week or more) and do the same again, some may clam up so I just make a change in what howler or sound I use on the E-caller..
When locateing I believe a caller should have a good understanding of how there coyotes move about and a rough idea of the size of there terr. in order to be close enough to hear them respond.. Some nights I can hear them clear as a bell and other times I just barely hear them or non at all due to ground cover and what the weather is doing... I've been told sometimes you have to give some of the coyotes enough time to move to a area they feel comfortable in before they respond (core area),, but here in most cases I get a response with-in a 1 minute..
I usually try to bring someone along when locateing that has much better hearing than me which helps alot.. I know in the area in S.D. the howls really stand out or easey to pick up due to the echo's from the rolling hills vrs. the flat land here at home..
As far as weather or moon phases go I find some to be non-responsive when there is a full moon and no cloud cover, sometimes I just have to get a little closer to them to get a response. I had one a few years back that was hunting in some CRP that was next to a road, when I pulled up the coyote must of just layed down.. I let out a series of locate howls and the coyote answered right away at roughly 50 yds. and I had my Walker game ears on at full volume, that coyote put goose bumps on the back of my neck about the size of a six-pack of Dew..LOL
I've located spring,summer, fall and winter and usually got a response from each coyote I new was there each time I went out and like said the only time they did'nt howl was on a full moon with a clear sky..
Dureing the day when I got a response was when I was calling or locateing near a den and with-in a few 100 yards. of it...
I know there may have been some I missed but as long as one answered that was good enough for me to get me to come back and call the area or come in with the group and hunt them down..
Coyote movement:
Dure the winter month's I'm out most every day looking for coyotes still up and moveing around or for tracks showing were they are going and were they came from, easey to read sign in the deep snow.. This year the coyotes have been moveing in a small area dureing most of the week with one night they seem to put a few more miles on (3-5) but tend to make there way back to where they started, give or take a section and a very few that take one more day before they move back... I think on the nites when they make the big move they are checking out the other coyotes in the area which are possably from the same family group, some time we catch them still together and other times we get there a day late and end up following empty tracks that go for miles. It helps to know the coyotes and there patterns in a given area as you can save a lot of time finding them as all you need to know is the direction the track is headed in and they are most likely headed for there core area..
Hunting times here:
Each coyote is a little different due to the size of the section it is liveing in and pressure from road traffic and what is there for food and cover..
A small percentage start to hunt around 9:00 p.m. and lay up around 3:00 a.m. and the remaining coyotes start to move about around 2-300 a.m. and bed down as the sun comes up..
Other parts of the country I've seen them moveing around way after sun-up and up past noon on a day to day basis and these areas saw very little traffic...
Down wind coyotes; I have seen very little of it happen and even here at home I don't see it at all. In the dakotas I have had them come straight in till about 200 yds out and then they try to go down wind but they don't make it, I believe on how you set up and use the lay of the land keeps this from happening, coyotes are like humans and tend to stick to the easey route when moveing... I have had some coyotes come in from behind me when I called in that direction, but they would blow past me and stop to look at what they just went by, dead coyote.
Question: Has anyone ever seen a wounded coyote run up hill trying to get away???
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
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posted January 10, 2013 11:26 PM
You are sticking your neck out, but playing cute about this:
quote:
I'm not going to say what vocals I use
Why is this, Tim? Do you think that if you let the cat out of the bag, everybody will move in and clean up in your core area of two states?
Speaking of cats, your last little teaser. I have been saying something similar on the Internet for fifteen years. In my observation, a wounded bobcat will invariably go uphill. If he heads downhill, he won't go far because he is pretty much done for. That's an opinion I hav stuck my neck out and shared for many many years and nobody has called me a liar about it.
But. In the country we see in your videos, that's a pretty fine line to be posing the question about wounded coyotes. Not only that, but I'm not biting. Never mind that I have seen coyotes go up over a hill carrying lead many times, but I draw no conclusions, will they go up or down.
In any case, thank you for your detailed analysis.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
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posted January 10, 2013 11:55 PM
quote:
Why is this, Tim? Do you think that if you let the cat out of the bag, everybody will move in and clean up in your core area of two states?
No Leonard. I was asked as a favor not to give this info out so I don't.. Plus there is alot that I had to learn on my own to add to it, so I like to keep a little something for myself since I put all the hard work into it.. Hope you understand...
As for the rest of my post its about the coyotes behavior I see here or in S.D and it maybe different in other parts of the country..
And for my question its about coyotes not cats so it has nothing to do with you or the post you made a year or so ago..
Someone I hunted with years back mentioned that coyotes tend to run down hill when wounded and I have been noticeing this behavior as well here and want to see if others see the same also..
Yeah the land is pretty flat here but when we are hunting anywhere near a creek or deep drainage and a coyote gets hit it runs down hill in most cases and only up hill if thats the only way it can get away.... Coyotes here will also run to shallow waterways and proably thinking if it can't see me I can't see it.LOL
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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posted January 11, 2013 06:27 AM
I've been known to miss a coyote now and then and they prefer downhill or turns or cover as opposed to uphill as well.
I don't buy the 'downhill' argument-at least immediately after the shot.Can't believe the internal computer prints out,"i'm hit,better go down instead of up".
They just act like alarmed coyotes period.
[ January 11, 2013, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
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posted January 11, 2013 08:14 AM
a few winters ago, i walked out a mile on snowshoes to a remote lake in Montana. wind was perfect and was a very slim chance anything seen me going in. started calling and not long into it a coyote comes from over 1/2 mile away on a good sprint while barking most of the way, no howls, just barks. and slams on the breaks at 400 yards. sits in the wide open on the ice and barked its head off. it did a little bit of pacing back and forth but mostly stayed put.
a few minutes latler, another coyote comes from another way, than another coyote from a different direction and than another. had 4 out on the wide open ice and all were barking like nuts. don't remember what i tried to coax them in but it did not work. finally took a 400 yarder and missed. those other 3 came from differnt directions than the original and all from at least 1/2 mile.
i have found 1 certain sound on my foxpro that seems to really aggitate the coyotes. a good percentage come in barking and a bit hackled up. and its not a coyote vocal.
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ursus21
2nd place, John Denver lookalike Contest
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posted January 11, 2013 08:15 AM
Thank you to everyone that contributed to this discussion. I really enjoyed learning from the combined experience we have here.
Leonard as to the howling issue I agree that different things affect them from time to time that cause them to clam up. There is one exception though that we are dealing with here in Montana, and I suspect it is going on in Idaho and Wyoming as well. The coyotes around here where I live are very vocal, and not too tough to get lit up on any given night, evening, or morning. However I have a hunting partner that lives in the heart of wolf country. He claimed the coyotes in his area rarely howl anymore. The theory is because when they do it's like ringing the dinner bell, and they prefer to not be the main course. I didn't completely believe him until I spent a day or two hunting with him in his part of Montana and sure enough those coyotes were tight lipped. My partner is considered one of the top callers in the country when it comes to coyote vocals. He's so dang good that there are times I have a real hard time telling whether it's him or a real coyote howling. Apparently the coyotes have a hard time telling as well, considering the high rate of success we have when he's doing the calling. With that said, he loves coming over here and hearing coyotes howl and vocalize. It's something he doesn't get to hear much on his home turf.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
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posted January 11, 2013 09:03 AM
Barking may spell aggression to the younger coyotes, and I don't use it often. In spring and summer when pups are bring protected by their parents, the use of threat Bark/Howls can be effective. Friendly sounding howls with no barks will call coyotes all year around. I can't be certain, but I think maybe the friendly sounding barks that Cal mentions are what I call "Yips". A man needs to pay close attention to the inflection of the howls and barks because that is where the meaning of the sound is found. I have come to believe that a lot of people (maybe even most) are tone deaf, and I don't mean that statement as a "put down". Just the plain truth is all.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Leonard
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posted January 11, 2013 10:24 AM
Tone deaf? Try STONE DEAF. This is why locate howling has never worked, for me.
A lot of times, since I'm older and wiser, I decide when to break off a stand. As we walk back or while loading the truck, Junior will say something like; did you hear all those howls from three different directions? Shit no, I didn't! Had I heard, I might have stayed and worked those vocal coyotes.
A lifetime of shooting does this. I was on the Battalion Pistol Team. We shot at a rifle range with a huge structure as a backstop, might have been five stories high, maybe more, and angled sides and sort of a canopy for a roof.
And, all of our shooting was from 25 yards or less so we were right in the middle of a huge amplifier. And, there was no thought for ear protection beyond sticking 45 brass in our ears, and you can imagine how effective that was.
And, here I am. LB
edit: PS, this was when two handed shooting was strictly for girls.
[ January 11, 2013, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted January 12, 2013 03:09 AM
I used to use barks (probably the very same sound they're talking about) because it sounds real and non-aggressive. Called in some coyotes by doing it mixed with prey distress, never stand alone. A couple of salty killers named Kelly and Randy told me one evening in Texas that even though I'd had some success with the sound, it probably runs off more than it brings in. When they spoke, I listened. Besides, that was about the time that Cal's vocals became available, so I don't miss the barks.
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