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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 21, 2011, 10:13 AM:
Since this site has probably more hard core coyote callers than most predator hunting sites I want to pose this question. How strong does the wind have to be blowing before you'll hang it up and not try a call? I know what my limitation is, just curious what the rest of you consider "too windy"?
[ December 21, 2011, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: ursus21 ]
Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 21, 2011, 10:27 AM:
A thirty mile per hour wind has different characteristics depending on where you are. It's all relative.
If you're in the flat land it's gonna be totally different than if you are in hilly terrain or in a woodland area. There will not be and cannot be a consensus on that question.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2011, 10:56 AM:
35mph is starting to get discouraging. 25 is difficult.
The question is: what are the tactics when you have no choice but to work with what you got.
You have to hope that they can hear you downwind. You have to hope that your scent has been dissipated to a point where it is disregarded. You should expect that your sound is reaching out there and therefore, it will take some time for them to get within range.
You can also do things like pointing you speaker upwind, knowing it will be dragged downwind.
You can also just drive with sound when the wind is blowing nonstop. If all you want to do is kill coyotes, you can stop; and remember to hold into the wind.
Then, as suggested, you can make your stands in the lee of the wind as much as possible. Sometimes, this is not as hard as you might think because the coyotes are hunkered down in the lee of the hills, as well.
It's hard. I seriously feel for Wyoming hunters that deal with wind every day, under conditions I would probably be napping.
gh....lb
Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 21, 2011, 11:20 AM:
I know the terrain and set up are part of the game. However I religiously check the weather forecast, especially for wind. I know that for me, there is definitely a point where I don't even plan to go out if the wind reaches that level. So let me re-word this. In the area you hunt the most, when do you hang it up because of the wind?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2011, 11:32 AM:
It depends on how desperate you are. A contest, 600 miles from home, you hunt in a gale.
If it is just recreational calling, this pussy prefers to wait it out, gusting between 25 and 35.
gh....lb
edit: Ten years ago, my answer would have been; gusting between 35 and 50. You are a young guy/that's my final answer.
[ December 21, 2011, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 21, 2011, 12:21 PM:
At 30-35 mph the old dead trees start to tip over in the places I hunt. So, if I hear or see trees tipping over, I call it quits. Also, it depends on the temperature. A 15-20 mph wind when it's 10° or lower will make me stay home, it's just uncomfortable.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 21, 2011, 12:32 PM:
If the wind blows my hat off the first day after a shaved head I disregard that because my head is too slick. However, if it occurs a day or two after shaving it is too windy for me.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 21, 2011, 01:20 PM:
If it is just recreational calling, this pussy prefers to wait it out, gusting between 25 and 35.
me 2.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 21, 2011, 01:29 PM:
35 for me too unless there are some hills nearby to get on the leaward side.
The Texas panhandle is ALWAYS blowing it seems and the critters are used to the wind so I try to crank up the volume and make stands closer together.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2011, 01:49 PM:
quote:
a day or two after shaving it is too windy for me.
What stubble? I only noticed stubble on the back half of your head.
Lately, Buttercup, it might be better to tie a ribbon over your bonnet and under your chin, whenever you go hunting. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
gh....lb
(just kidding, you da bomb!)
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 21, 2011, 03:09 PM:
First liar doesn't stand a chance........around here we don't even go out until the wind hits 70mph....if it drops too low all the coyotes will fall over anyways.......pussies!!
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 21, 2011, 10:33 PM:
I'm a real pussy. If 20mph is forecast, I cancel. If I'm already out and get surprised, I'm there, why not?
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 21, 2011, 11:46 PM:
Me too Jim, I just wanted to sound as cool as these guys with there 50mph stories.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 22, 2011, 12:19 AM:
Like most I prefer no wind but will hunt in 20-25 mph when I don't have a choice..
We normaly get a N-W wind so i call the east to west drainages and set up on north side or south depending on the direction I'm calling. I will also call down wind if I have some sort of structure to bring the coyotes along and set up just a little ways back from a point so they have to come around it before they get a chance to pick up my scent..
Same set up can be used if a caller is calling along a creek, just stay back aways from where it curves.
[ December 22, 2011, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Clank (Member # 3687) on December 22, 2011, 05:21 AM:
I dont get out to call much. So wind or no wind i go.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 22, 2011, 06:16 AM:
If I am just going out for the day and its going to be +20 mph I will stay home and go another day. If im out away for a multiple day hunt Ill go for it regardless of the wind. Oh I hate the wind! I like a breeze but really hate wind.
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 22, 2011, 08:04 AM:
Wind chill is more of a factor with me. But if a guy must hunt in those windy conditions it is better to look for river bottoms , or heavy forest areas that can possibly give you a little protection. Where I hunt, that is where I try to go if possible. You can go up a big draw into the wind and call all the side draws. Anymore, I just stay home when the wind is above 20mph. There is a few variables a guy can do when calling with the wind especially with E-callers , but that is just hear say with me. Never have tried it myself.
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 22, 2011, 09:19 AM:
a steady 25 mph wind with gusts over that, I'm not going, unless I have to. I'm a whimp too I guess. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2011, 09:46 AM:
Well, now that we have weeded out the hardcore from the wimps, I have a question. Do you pull the covers up over your head, or get up to watch The View? I bet all your guns are cleaned and put away, too! WEE WEE CHU.
gh....lb
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 22, 2011, 01:06 PM:
20-25 this morning, set up tight and make short stands.
All these showed in less than the 5 minute mark in the wind this morning. Made it back to the house by 12:30 wind is 'post' to pick up this afternoon.
Yall stay after them
Kelly
Yall stay after them
Kelly
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 22, 2011, 03:48 PM:
A steady wind is one thing. To a degree, it can be dealt with.
When it's blowing in my face as I walk to my stand, then on the back of my neck about the time I find a place to sit is a bit annoying.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2011, 05:21 PM:
That's true koko. But, there is a bright side, when the wind changes three times during a stand. Under those conditions, the coyote don't bother going downwind, they understand that it might change by the time they get there.
gh....lb
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 22, 2011, 06:17 PM:
great topic Troy!!!.
most of my coyote hunting starts at 200 miles from home and its not uncommon to go 400 so i call with whatever God throws at me. if i lived in good country i would probably not go out at 30mph. just got back from a 2 day trip a bit ago. yesterday, the winds were about 15 and calling was "ok". today the winds were about 25 and i seen squat.
[ December 22, 2011, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on December 22, 2011, 09:47 PM:
I don't know anybody who really likes a lot of wind, including yours truly. The wind direction has more to do with my decision whether or not to go to a particular farm. If it is blowing in such a way it makes it nearly impossible for the coyotes to get downwind without traveling a long way, I stay away from that farm that day. 20 mph gusts with 15 mph the norm is about my limit in my part of the world.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 09:24 AM:
I am recalling a wise Quote from old Gerry Blair. "The worst day out calling is better than the BEST day in front of a boob tube." I also have never forgotten old Murry Burnham telling me that when it is real windy, he heads for the brushy valleys out of the wind and calls bobcats.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 09:30 AM:
I want to ask the opinion of you experts when it comes to sound. Which sounds carry furthest? Some guys think the high pitch calls carry further than low pitch. I am fairly certain that the LOW pitched sounds carry further, and that is why they use the really low pitched fog horns on a barge.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 09:57 AM:
It depends on how loud the high pitched sound is and if the wind is gusting.. It also can depend on what freq. are used in a certain sound...
WT's snowshoe hare has both high and low freq. which can be play very loud and thats why it works so well.....
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 10:07 AM:
OK, which sounds carry the furthest. High Pitched or Low pitched? Some folks don't quite understand the question, or at least ONE person didn't.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 10:28 AM:
I understood the question, its just you did'nt understand the answer..
It depends on what sound you use or what sounds you are compareing to one another..
Example WT's vole mouse will carry farther than a baby cotton-tail and a baby jack will carry farther than a vole mouse....
A male coyote howl will carry farther than a female howl....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2011, 10:58 AM:
U.S. Navy nuclear submarines receive ultra low frequency communication from thousands of miles away; again, depending on wind direction.
gh....lb
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 12:50 PM:
Rich Cronk, I want some of this as well!!!!!!! So what do you guys think. I my self am a high pitch guy and that must be based on somthing I read once apon a time. Because I my self don't have a clue. I did grow up along the tracks in my home town and those train horns were not at all high pitched but you could damn sure here them.
High pitch low pitch My guess is just go with what you think works best. I think the real answer is get out of the wind the best you can and get the sound in to the place where the varmint most likely would or could be hunkerd down at.
Now when will I not go? Just let me say if I have the means and a way and if I'm hell bent to go I'm going.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 01:04 PM:
Cayotaytalker,
Yes, I am really hoping that someone will answer my question also. I believe that frequency is different than pitch but I could be wrong. So I will try one more time. Which sound will carry further when comparing say the distress cry of an adult white tail and an eastern cottontail if they are both played at the very same volume?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2011, 01:15 PM:
How do you determine the exact same volume? By loudness of the original recording, or the dial on your playback machine?
gh....lb
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 23, 2011, 01:15 PM:
Higher frequency sound waves are more directional, more easily reflected, and do not carry as far as, lower frequency sound waves.
Think of those idiot kids with the 1000+ watt car stereos (like I used to be). When those crackas are cruisin' down the strip, what sound you do hear emanating from the source first???
Answer: the 40-80hz "boom...boom" bass line!
You only hear the mid/higher range frequencies from much closer. And then, only when you have an unobstructed line of sight (sound) to the source. The higher frequency mids/highs get bounced around, redirected & invaribly 'lost' in the background noise. Yet, the longer wavelength, lower frequency bass notes penetrate sheet metal, and glass in all directions and can be heard from a block, or more away. Heck, depending on the volume, those low end bass notes will be audible inside a friggin' building when that car drives by...
I remember watching a show on elephants a long time ago that proved that they communicate over extremely long distances via ultra low (<20hz) frequency sounds. That is below the threshold of human hearing and the sound elephants produce can travel for miles in air. That is impressive shit!
SO, to answer the question, at the same volume, low frequency will travel much, much further...
[ December 23, 2011, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2011, 01:18 PM:
FRED! YOU USED TO DO THAT SHIT?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 01:25 PM:
quote:
Which sound will carry further when comparing say the distress cry of an adult white tail and an eastern cottontail if they are both played at the very same volume?
Depends on who's recording you compare with..
Best way to find out is with a sound meter, I had a thread on it awhile back but at the time no-one was interested... I know the answer... Does anyone else??????? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 23, 2011, 01:32 PM:
Yep, I sure did. Being that I grew up workin' in a nightclub as a young punk, I built stoopidly loud stereo systems in my rides.
Between that combo & shooting, I've permamently jacked up my hearing. Complete dumbazz maneuver, but the damage is already done...
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 23, 2011, 02:35 PM:
Off topic a bit, but my father used to shoot 1911's (he calls them .45's) and German Lugers down in the basement of an indoor range with no hearing protection back in the 70's. His hearing is shot because of it.
Don't know if you are familiar Fred, with the old Ray's Sport Shop on RT 22?
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 02:39 PM:
Rich I think your right there not one in the same. I would think pitch aplys to some one singing or playing in a band,you know as in a singer has to be on pitch.
We have all been here from time to time,like when a person rolls up to a stop light. And there is some one close by with the music turned way up loud and you can feel the vibes that's from the frequency is my point of view.
As far as the deer and the rabbit no thanks I want touch that with a ten foot pole.
Ok so a low frequency sound are the just right frequency sound can reach out there and tickle a varmints ears or body,and I say body because frequency's are energy right.So if any caller can do any thing to cause any varmint to stand up are to even start in for a look see is just that much farther a head of the pack. So what can any of us really do other than put those few extra hand calls around our necks. Are put a few high frequency sounds A few midrange frequency sounds and even some low frequency sounds on there e-caller.
This is in no way going out to you Rich but my guess is that there is not one person thats hangs out on this site that would or could here any of the highs and lows by ear any ways.
Not any one 40 plus at least.
In short the person thats trys some of the low frequency stuff might be the smart fellow after all.
In fact I would like to see a show of hands of all the guys on here that would like for the ringing in there ears to stop just for alittle while.
And in case some one out there dose not no it by now I like to fool around with recording my own prey disterss recordings and converting some of the old tapes. Just a hobby is all any way that's why this sort of a post always draws me out. And if none of this makes alick of sense then I hope some one at least got a good laugh out of it.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 02:50 PM:
Kelly Jackson I saw your bobcat post and would just like to know when is the wind not blowing 25 in Oklahoma lol.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 03:06 PM:
There has been more than once out here in Nevada that I have had the volume up way to loud on my caller and the sound will bounce all over the canyon.Of course I don't know what that does to or for varmints. Just somthing that can and does happe out here in the west at times.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 03:18 PM:
quote:
So what can any of us really do other than put those few extra hand calls around our necks. Are put a few high frequency sounds A few midrange frequency sounds and even some low frequency sounds on there e-caller.
As far as E-callers go there are prey distress sounds that cover it all, high, med., low,. along with alot of emotion...
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 03:37 PM:
"Example WT's vole mouse will carry farther than a baby cotton-tail and a baby jack will carry farther than a vole mouse....
A male coyote howl will carry farther than a female howl."
---------------------------
That WT Vole sound is crap as far as I am concerned and I never bothered to even try it. So you really believe that you can tell a male coyote howl from a female coyote howl? That tells me a whole lot about your knowledge right there.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 03:55 PM:
well that's what I keep hereing from a guy up north any ways. In fact I have that same sound that was put out under another name and under a differnt label. And sure I could be dead wrong but it sure sounds the same to my ears any ways.
I have some new software for cleaning up sounds, but not so sure I like it.This new software has way to manny presets on it for my likes. I hope it was not 50 bucks down a rat hole.Of course that's just based on hind site or knowing 50 bucks buys alot of fire water.
And I have been puting a new hard drive in my computer for more storage space,and then my grand son got me into playing Madden 12 on Wii. So with all my screwing a round well I just don't have a lot of spare time to well screw around. I do have this new software loaded up just have to open it up and play around with it and see how it works.
Tim what kind of a computer do you have,not the brand name. But like does it run windows seven (7) and is it 32 bit or 64 bit?
And by the way do you use a after market sound card or just the sound card that is on your motherboard?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 03:55 PM:
I'm just going by what its called on the WT list and Bill named them according to what animal or its sex he recorded it from.
As for the vole mouse being crap you don't know what your talking about. That sound alone has produced 40 some coyotes since I've owned my WT...
[ December 23, 2011, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 04:00 PM:
Well I am certainly happy for you Tim.
I found this on Google search engine.
Animal Life: Secrets of the Animal World Revealed -
Sound and environment Low-pitched sound travels farthest because it can pass through obstacles without being scattered.
-------------------------------------
So low pitched sounds carry further than high pitched ones do. I guess I win this time. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ December 23, 2011, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 04:10 PM:
A high pitched sound produceing 104 db will reach out farther than a low pitch sound thats only produceing 80 db on avr.
Most distrees sounds are broken up with varis pitches or tones, a sound that produces a larger varity of pitch will at a high db will be heard farther. Not all sounds produce a high db even if at full volume...
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 23, 2011, 04:16 PM:
Cayotaytalker,
My hand is up sir. I can hear low pitched sounds pretty good, but high pitched sounds are another story. I worked around loud chipping hammers etc. when I was a weldor for Fruehoff. My ears ring constantly, and I can't hear air leaking from a tire unless I am real close. They claim that my burglar alarm beeps every time someone opens a door, but I sure as heck can't hear it.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 04:43 PM:
How do you determine the exact same volume? By loudness of the original recording, or the dial on your playback machine?
gh....lb
-------------------- LB, thats a damn good point. All I know and it's not much is say after a band gets done with there recording is that the recording is then sent out for mastering. And one of the goals is not to just clean up how the toms are a snare are any thing that might not sound just right,but to make all of the sounds (songs) come out and play well at any volume and sound good on what ever the music might be played on.
For the sake of prey distress sounds I would think a person would have to use two of the same e-callers.
Well any ways I would put my money on the fact that any one that is in the prey distress game does not send any of there sounds out so that it is going to end up in the hands of any one with golden ears are millons of dollar's worth of gear any way. But on the other hand maybe they are and thats why so manny of them are so up tight about there sounds geting out in to the "WRONG HANDS" are think there little sounds are so "SPECIAL".
Ok ok I went over a bit of cliff on that lol.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 05:06 PM:
Rich, my ears have been shot from about age 16 me and some guys went out and shot a 357 with out ear plugs.and being a drop out and going to work early in life as a hard hat did not help any at all.Jack hammers and so on and in the 70's we was lucky to get a dust mask let a lone ear plugs.And even though it was to late really I would use a dust mask and ear plugs as much as I could,and my thinking was I would try and save what hearing I did have left plus protect my loungs as well.I did alot of demo and was around alot of asbestos.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 23, 2011, 05:27 PM:
Hey Tim did you get those sounds at one of LBs campouts in Arizona? I got my self a few my self but I think you got to those tpes be for me.I do wish I would have gotten one of those bear cub tapes my self and one of the deer fawn tapes also.I think they were all made are at least put out by the same guy any ways.
And I still have all of my stuff I got at that camp out.
I have what I think is the same rabbit sound on a tape put out by True Nature Sounds. Not that I care who recorded it,True Nature Sounds is was based in Waco Texas any ways it's a real good recording for sure.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 23, 2011, 06:51 PM:
Kelly Jackson I saw your bobcat post and would just like to know when is the wind not blowing 25 in Oklahoma lol.
Today - light wind....made 16 cat stands and never seen a hair....guess I need the wind to blow...lol
Stay after them
Kelly
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 23, 2011, 07:09 PM:
quote:
A high pitched sound produceing 104 db will reach out farther than a low pitch sound thats only produceing 80 db on avr.
t-bag, considering all the variables in the field I highly doubt you can back that claim up with one shred of evidence, I spent the whole day calling in the wind and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the sound that works best is whichever one brings in the most coyotes, the very notion that you have some supernatural ability to tell which sound is carrying further under any given circumstance and which ones the coyotes can hear better at which DB level is abso-fucking-lutely absurd!!!! But then again I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 23, 2011, 07:22 PM:
As much as it pains me t-bag, I agree with your statement about some sounds on e-callers covering the highs and the lows.....I like those sounds for open country and the higher ones for the thick stuff on lower volume, where I may already be close to them.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 07:31 PM:
Once again your talking out youre ass,But then again I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
A sound meter can pick-up the sounds you or I cannot. I don't know anything on the F-P sounds but the ones from WT and some recorded sounds I have I know how loud they are and are not..
I have also called in the wind and certain sounds I have work better than others.. Why is that?????
Could it be they have a higher db or have parts in the sound that produce a high db and more continues than other sounds...
Of all the rabbit recordings WT has ask anyone that uses a WT what rabbit sound produces more coyotes over the others and also on windy days, and then ask what rabbit sounds works well or produces more on a calm day...
You should get two different answers that will match my findings...
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 07:38 PM:
quote:
I agree with your statement about some sounds
There you see it did'nt hurt one little bit..
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 23, 2011, 08:22 PM:
quote:
A sound meter can pick-up the sounds you or I cannot. I don't know anything on the F-P sounds but the ones from WT and some recorded sounds I have I know how loud they are and are not..
Are you telling me that you run out 1/2 mile or more from every stand and set up a sound meter to record which sound is louder?.......If you don't do that then just stop while your ahead.
quote:
I have also called in the wind and certain sounds I have work better than others.. Why is that?????
Because a coyote was there to hear it or it was a different sound than you used on a calm day when you spooked him, prey base, weather, time of year, time of day, maybe it was the sound that reminded him the least of the sound of your truck screaming through the section with bullets whizzing past his head.....I don't know why t-bag and neither do you.
quote:
Of all the rabbit recordings WT has ask anyone that uses a WT what rabbit sound produces more coyotes over the others and also on windy days, and then ask what rabbit sounds works well or produces more on a calm day...
You should get two different answers that will match my findings...
Maybe those sounds are just louder on the recording, I have many sounds that vary in volume due only to the volume they were recorded at............if you feel the need, start a poll and compile some sort of evidence to support your claims, something besides the fact that you're in love with wild Bill.
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 23, 2011, 09:03 PM:
Low pitched sounds definitely travel farther, hence the use of low pitches for fog horns and such. Elephants and whales both use low frequency sounds to communicate over extremely long distances for example, while bats use their ultrasonic frequencies to hone in on bugs within close proximity.
Tim,
Don't drink the WT cool aid about the sounds being labeled correctly. I have all of the coyote WT original sound files and they have been re-sexed over the years (Same file names, different names by WT). Or they have been diced up and renamed. I'm just saying don't put trust in the name of the sound to be what you think it is. Use the sound for whatever you think it is, not what you're told it is.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2011, 11:38 PM:
quote:
Are you telling me that you run out 1/2 mile or more from every stand and set up a sound meter to record which sound is louder?.......If you don't do that then just stop while your ahead.
I don't have to take it that far.. When I did my testing it was done on a calm day as well as a windy day (5-10 mph), I was set up in a open area, no structure around.. I took readings from in front of the caller at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, 9:00. For distance from caller I took readings from 50 yds, 100, 150, 200, and 250 yds. And a few extra reading from out in front at a little farther distance as well as directly behind...
I compared some of the Prey distress sounds along with a few coyote vocals..
None of the testing was done in a special room, just out in the open were most of us do our calling so I could get a general idea of how the sound travels and how it disperses when the wind is blowing..
I have certain sounds that seem to work well when its windy and sounds that work well when its not so I compared them to see what was different about them. A sound meter or even gold-wave will show you the sound signature and the difference between them, and the meter just takes it a bit farther. Actual use outdoors..
Another thing to keep in mind is not all of the sound reaches a coyote if its out there a long ways, they are just picking up pieces of it, just like the meter only pic's up certain parts. Some of the deeper parts of a sound carry farther on a windy day but if the deep sounds are to short in duration its just a beep to the coyote..
I don't know how far a coyote can hear or actually how far the sound travels, I just know by reading the meter they are'nt always getting the complete sound..
You ever read were a caller said there was a coyote out in front a mile away and it just stood there and looked in his direction but did'nt come in, one it could be a spooked coyote or two its not hearing enough of the sound played to convince it to come in..
TundraWookie ; I don't really care if its the right sound or not, I'm just useing what name its given so the readers have a better understanding of what I'm saying.
Ok so you understand better I'll put it this way, a deeper low pitched howl will carry better in the wind than a higher pitch howl like most of the females make.. On a calm day though the high pitch howl can carry just as well as a low pitch...Longer duration of higher pitches
quote:
Low pitched sounds definitely travel farther
Here is an example that others may be able to follow..
Most of you have heard a shotgun fired off in the distance and a rifle as well.
The shotgun blast being the lower of the two with the rifle being the higher pitch.
The shotgun blast is more of a short sound wave with very little signature, just boom! The rifle actually has two signatures, the crack of it going off (echo) and the bullet traveling down range and a longer signature.
Now you take a rabbit in distress sound that has alot of high, low, and med. pitches to it with alot of emotion and a longer duration in the pitches you will have a sound that will carry better on a windy day.
[ December 24, 2011, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 24, 2011, 12:04 AM:
quote:
Maybe those sounds are just louder on the recording, I have many sounds that vary in volume due only to the volume they were recorded at............
Exactly!!!!!Thats the point I tried to get across to Rich....
Post 1 & 2 second page...
[ December 24, 2011, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 24, 2011, 02:49 AM:
my brother and i hunt together quite abit.he's in love with lightning jack on his foxpro. i have heard him calling from over 2 miles away on calm days. he's also heard my mouth call howls from 2 miles away
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 24, 2011, 07:10 AM:
Icon 1 posted December 24, 2011 12:04 AM Profile for TA17Rem Edit/Delete Post
quote:Maybe those sounds are just louder on the recording, I have many sounds that vary in volume due only to the volume they were recorded at............
Exactly!!!!!Thats the point I tried to get across to Rich..
---------------------------
Oh Brother! The more posts I see from TA, the dumber he gets. I ask a simple question, find scientific answer via Google search engine, and old TA still sticking with answers via WT and which sounds call more coyotes. Keep talking TA, everyone is getting a big laugh.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 24, 2011, 07:19 AM:
Nick, no, not familiar with that range.
Rich, my hearing loss is very similar to what you are describing. After having a complete audiological exam, it was determined that my perception of frequencies above 4,000hz drops off drastically. To the point where I'm completely deaf to the highest frequencies a "normal" person could pick up easily.
Also, deciphering a normal speaking voice in the presence of any noticeable background noise becomes very difficult. Pretty much have to be looking at the person & 'lip read' along. And the constant high pitched 'ring' never, ever goes away. The quieter the surroundings, the louder it seems...
Back to the topic.
With the volume being equal, low frequency sounds travel considerably further. But you need a serious driver to reproduce low frequency sounds to match the volume of mids & highs.
That is why most commonly used speakers are the size that they are. To reproduce low frequencies, the driver needs to literally move (displace) alot of air. Subwoofers are between 8-12", midrange drivers 4-6" and tweeters 1-3". Generalizing here, but you see the point. As you go up in frequency, you don't need as much surface area to 'move' the air & reproduce those soundwaves...
That is why you can also physically "feel" the bassline from that idiot's car stereo, not just hear it. But after all, your eardrum is actually "feeling" soundwaves for you to decipher them, isn't it?
There is NO friggin' way that any compact sized e-caller can reproduce low frequency sounds to even close to the volume that it does mid/high range frequencies. For one, the driver (speaker) is not designed to do so (too small), and the amplifier is waaaay too weak to push a larger driver anyway.
That is why we have what we have on the market. E-callers having a decent fullrange driver, powered by a meager amount of power, in a package that is easy enough to carry & won't suck the life out of the inboard battery power...
[ December 24, 2011, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 24, 2011, 07:50 AM:
Should add this. Reproducing the distress sounds that bunnies & birds make probably doesn't require a high end set of drivers, or a massive amplifier. But I'd still be curious to hear some of the companies proprietary sounds through a quality sound system. If only to satisfy a curiousity as to what the dynaminc range of the each of the recorded sounds really are, and how the TOA type speakers sound in comparison.
Of course, that wouldn't be a fair playing field to compare one to the next. But it'd be interesting to see how much "sound" is being left on the table from how those recordings could be reproduced in an 'ideal' environment.
Remember, not only does amplification translate to increased volume capacity, it also allows the driver to more accurately reproduce sound waves at lower volumes. To get full dynamic range out of a driver at low volume, you need POWER from an amp.
So, even the best recorded sounds are still at the mercy of the components they are delivered through...
[ December 24, 2011, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 24, 2011, 08:11 AM:
quote:
But I'd still be curious to hear some of the companies proprietary sounds through a quality sound system.
I've listened to quite a few of the original recordings on "decent" systems in my vehicles or through decent (Bose) headphones. I've got such a tin ear, I can't say it was particularly revealing for me. A bit more detail in the lows maybe.
- DAA
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 24, 2011, 08:53 AM:
knockemdown,
Boy Oh Boy, do I EVER feel those low frequency sounds! It hurts my ears, and even rattle the windows of my house. I often want to shoot the dumb ass who blasts out such offensive sounds on his boom-boom speakers. I know for certain that this BOOM-Boom crap is an assault and battery. I don't understand why the state laws and city ordinance don't BAN those stupid speakers from even being sold, let alone played over some idiot's car speaker. I do not believe however, that any of the recorded sounds we use in calling predators get that dang low anyway. No mouth blown predator calls do that either. Oh, and ya know what? The really HIGH pitched sounds hurt my ears also.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2011, 10:57 AM:
At last, something I can relate to; I'm deaf, read lips and have constant ringing in my ears. Shooting, not loud music, did it, and continues to do it. However, I think it can't get much worse?
I have to put my caller closer to me than I would like, sometimes, because at a reasonable volume, I can't hear it 100 yards away. The sounds that coyotes hear from a mile, or more, I can't hear unless it is fairly close, necessitating me jacking it up now and then, just to make sure it changed sounds, etc.
gh....lb
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 24, 2011, 11:23 AM:
t-bag, you're a real gem, I'll be back to insult you some more later.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 24, 2011, 12:07 PM:
quote:
and old TA still sticking with answers via WT and which sounds call more coyotes.
I'm just useing the WT as an example since its the caller I use the most.. There are other sounds out there that work well on windy days made by others..
Example;; those sounds I sent you awhile back to see if you could clean up.. E.S. live cottontail, live jack, and baby jack recorded by J.S. just to name a few produce very well on windy days...
Fred you mentioned you need a big amp to get the lower sounds out there.. Have you ever heard a Dennis Kirk caller??? Its just a big portable AMP that uses a cassette player to play the sounds into it....
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 24, 2011, 12:48 PM:
Merry Christmas Tim.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2011, 02:37 PM:
Well, dog my cats! DidI read that right? Must be the season?
gh....lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 24, 2011, 04:25 PM:
Merry Christmas to all.. You to Leonard..
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 24, 2011, 09:38 PM:
To the original question, it depends. If it's the first day with strong winds, I may find it hard to really push myself because the coyotes are probably laid up anyway. If the wind has been blowing for several days, I figure a coyote has to eat and they'll acclimate to the wind. When it is blowing, I head to the low areas and timbered creeks, river bottoms and anywhere else I can get in low. Use lower pitched sounds, run them continuously, and shorten the distance between setups, starting up wind and working my way into it.
Windy days are also good days to get after 'cats, although I don't focus on them much. Even better, wind has little affect on coon calling and I've called the crap out of coons in 45 mph winds when those big cottonwoods were creaking like they were fixing to come down around me. LOL
Personally, I prefer a slight breeze, maybe even a wind, over a calm day, any day. If there's but one given about coyotes - that one thing you can hang your hat on - it's that they'll use the wind. At least when the wind is blowing, you have better odds that you're looking in the right place when they appear.
I rarely call it a day because of wind, if for no other reason than that I'm addicted to this game and the wind is just one more challenge to see if I can overcome and persevere. Two years ago, I was calling into a 30 mph wind and had a coyote laid up about 300 yards out where all I could see was it's ears and eyes through the scope. I tried all the low jack sounds I had with no luck. When I switched to dueling cottontails which I could barely hear twenty yards to the side of the caller, that coyote immediately turned his head, canted one way then the next and jumped up to trot in. I am firmly convinced that the hair in the coyote's ears helps them to hear in the wind by reducing the buffeting sound of gusty wind and that coyote showed me once again to never underestimate their senses.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 25, 2011, 09:40 AM:
First of all Merry Christmas!!
Fred from what I have been told on sound waves you hit the nail on the head.
The size, width, density of a lower pitched soundwave is what allows it to travel farther. Able to continue thru obstructions without deflecting and disappearing. Like Rich's example of why something meant to travel at extended ranges is of the low pitched variety, "Fog Horn" in fog extreme weather conditions.
Like Lance mentioned I think coyotes hate the "wind noise" in their ears and it makes it difficult for them to hunt with their nose, ears, etc on these windy days and they usually lay up somewhere out of it. You'll see them layed up with ears folded down like us with our hands over our ears etc to get away from it. Imagine with that hearing how loud that must sound.
I don't think the sound of distress is as important as the direction of the soundwave which is greater and more directional thru an ecaller.
The loudness at the source of the sound vs the extended loudness at an extended range comes from the making of the soundwave and how compacted and wide the bandwidth is. Like comparing a 22 rimfire bullet to get thru some brush vs a 30-30 going thru the same brush. At least from what I have been told? The ability of an electroninc device to compact and amp soundwaves is a huge advantage.
I'd prefer to hunt on a 10-15 mph wind to allow entry into the country without detection and to put them a little down into the country vs. laying up high and catchin sun on the calm days. High winds are about as bad as calm variable winds. You just move to the riverbreaks, rough country in high winds, but you just can't get away from calm and variable to easy. You can burn up a lot of country on one stand and get eyes and ears focused on your direction with to much volume on those calm days. Not to mention the increased time on stand making fewer stands per day etc. You run into territorial issues etc.
This country allows a guy to watch how far sound travels without any trees. Lots of distress like the example Lance stated just won't cut thru the wind to get them to focus those ears to pickup the sound. It's like they have turned down the volume on their hearing aid. Usually if a guy can't get them to turn and focus a howl thru it will turn the focus toward the caller and then work with whatever.
I think the responce to the original question was it's never to calm or too windy if your a little creative. If you wait for perfect conditions you don't go much. I've had some really great days in 30 plus mph winds and some real crappy days on dead calm days. Hunted ND one time minus 35 and a 20 mph wind, hunted 80 plus degrees with about the same humidity hated that about as bad. I won't go when it's to hot but never seen to cold yet?
You've got to give some wind on those windy days and set up a place to shoot them. Much easier with a partner or an ecaller but it can be a small window.
What you know about terrain and coyotes in that given area gives you a huge advantage on a windy day.
Going to be 50 here today low winds, could be a new record. Going to take the bird dogs out on a late season bird hunt. Fresh pheasant to eat later.
Good topic!
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 25, 2011, 02:08 PM:
On the topic of wind, lots of variables to consider that haven't been addressed.
It's true that coyotes will USUALLY lay up in wind if it has been calm. On the other hand, if it's been windy for a few days and the coyotes are hungry and tired of laying up they are eventually going to have to move. Whether or not coyotes lay up and how long they lay up depends on how long the wind has been blowing. Colder temperatures vs. warm days will also determine whether or not they will lay up in the wind and for how long. A determination of how long the wind has been blowing should be paramount to any game plan that considers the wind. Do you think a coyote will be less responsive if it's been laying up for a few days, the temperature is falling, and it's hungry? Wind is not going to deter their attraction at that point.
Normally, if the thistles are blowing across the roads you are dealing with 25 mph or more wind. Assuming that it has been windy for a few days and I believe coyotes are on the move or I am in a contest and have no choice, I simply change the way I hunt and call with the wind because your sound won't reach out enough against the wind. In addition, when the wind is blowing above 20 mph, your scent is scattered and disapated unlike your scent cone in calmer winds. It's not uncommon to have coyotes get close down wind in heavy winds simply due to the disapation of your scent cone. You just place yourself in a position downwind of the caller or downwind of your partner who is doing the calling and shoot them before they get directly down wind.
As has been stated, during windy days, it is generally better calling closer to the creek bottoms where the strong winds are less of a factor.
On the topic of low volume vs. high volume you guys have presented some good examples of animals that use both high and low frequency sounds to communicate at longer distances (bats, whales, elephants). The fact that both high and low pitched sounds are used in the animal world for long distance communication in itself should give you the answer you are looking for.
When a coyote is mousing in a stubble field, they are tuned into high frequency sounds of the mice below them. They can hear mice below two feet of snow. Then when they are communicating with eachother for spacial distribution and territorial reasons, they are tuned into those sounds. Both work best when coyotes are tuned into that particular sound.
The issue here really isn't how far each sound will carry but rather which sound has more attraction at longer distances and at what particular time in a coyote's daily activities. The first mistake we make is to think that a coyote hears sound the same way we do. My observations say they don't hear things the same way we do or at least they shut certain sounds out in certain situations.
RR pointed out a very important observation and it is one that I have seen many times. That is how much better a coyote's ability to pick up certain distress sounds becomes once they are tuned into the direction of your howl. Any healthy normal coyote can pick up sounds much better when they are tuned into a direction listening for them. That should tell you something about the importance of howling. Not only for distance and locating coyotes but to tune them in to your direction.
If a coyote doesn't respond to a low frequency or high frequency sound was it because they didn't hear it or because they simply were not interested in what they heard at that moment??? If you don't think that question is relevant, then you don't know as much about coyotes as you might think.
The answer to the question about low vs. high frequency sounds is......DEPENDS.
The answer to how much wind can you have and still call effectivly.....DEPENDS.
The answer to what I need if I lose control of my bodily functions......DEPENDS.
~SH~
[ December 25, 2011, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2011, 02:53 PM:
I don't disagree with any of the previous post, by Scott.
The only item that I found interesting was about a howl, (and it's ability to travel long distances) was that a coyote will turn it's head and ears in the direction of your howl and subsequently pick up the distress sound coming from your ecaller. It not only makes sense, I have observed it through binoculars while watching bedded coyotes. They are not looking like they hear your distress, but turn their head when you blow a howler and really get focused on the distress. It happens in observable stages and you can see that they suddenly get all interested in your sound and YE HA! Here they come, boys!
gh....lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2011, 04:18 PM:
I've found that on some days when the coyotes are'nt answering the distress sounds I'm playing I will throw out a few howls to get there attension or wake them up and like Scott said get them to focus on your rabbit sounds..
I did a contest a few years back and was talking with Scott on the phone and Scott mentioned I would be dealing with some heavey winds the day of the contest and we descussed some things I could do to put the game in my favor and hopefully pull in a few coyotes. Stand selection and how to use the wind to my advantage was talked about along with useing the ground structure or lay of the land..
Here is a pic of one of my stands with the wind blowing at my back.. I knew the coyotes were down in a drainage to the left and I could of set up on the ridge to my left but it left too much of a chance for the coyotes to come straight in and pick up my scent cone so instead I set up at the end of the drainage on the end of a stock pond.. If the coyotes were going to come in and stay low out of the wind they would follow the drainage in and funnel up to the pond were I made my stand...
After a bit of calling a coyote did just that and appeared around the edge of the ridge on the bottom and came straight in to the pond allowing me a shot before it got a chance to pick up my scent... The coyote died just before it reached the end of the finger of snow on the pond.
[ December 25, 2011, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 25, 2011, 07:53 PM:
coyote???. i don't see no steenking coyote
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2011, 08:35 PM:
Just a sec. I'll give you a close up..lol
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2011, 09:59 PM:
That's amazing, when you think of it. Same color as the dead grass.
gh....lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 25, 2011, 10:54 PM:
Leonard the coyotes in S.D. where I hunt run in roughly two color phases. The color of the one in the pic and a silver white color.. Calling over snow makes the dark ones easey to pick out but you have to take a double take on the silvers unless you have the sun in your favor then they will cast a shadow to one side. Last week-end I got into alot of the silver white ones and boy where they a site to be hold comeing down off a ridge...
I prefer to call when there is no snow, makes it easey to get around but a little tougher to pick up some of the coyotes comeing in..
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 28, 2011, 10:07 AM:
For sure this has been a good read!
ursus21 thank you for getting the ball rolling on this one. And Rich thanks to you for your spin on this subject as well.Knockemdown your replys were a big help to me as well.
Randy Roede and Wily E your replys always are a plus as well.
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