quote:

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I say let them back in with one exception they have to have all there kills on vid.
Would be interesting to see if they can come up with the same numbers....

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quote:

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Good idea, Tim. And while he's at it, he would have to foist the same requirement on every other team in the hunt, too, in order to avoid being accused of the same thing, just different, of one team having a distinct disadvantage over all other entrants.

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At the moument only one team has been banned from the contest. What I'm saying is let them compete but have it all on film and if they win then there should'nt be any questions about it.. Like someone once said "no pic.s it did'nt happen"......
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 13, 2011, 08:39 PM:
 
What ever happened to doing this shit just for the fun of it????

Good grief!!!
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on December 13, 2011, 09:48 PM:
 
Lance very good point and always something we are thinking about with our hunts.

I agree with what can you enforce? The one rule i didn't like at Nationals was no splitting up. A team that has 60,000 acres of locked gates to hunt can split up all they want because there isn't going to be any other teams back there to see them. The guys hunting public land stayed together per the rules but how does the coordinator enforce the rule without flying around in a helicopter all day looking at teams and making sure they not more than 200yds apart or whatever the rule was.

Has it come out yet what rule the board is accusing them of breaking?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 13, 2011, 10:40 PM:
 
Boy, I could say a lot about this subject having been solely responsible for all CSVCA hunts for 10½ years. And, I sure made some enemies while trying to do the right thing. And, guess what. The whiners that couldn't beat my club eventually tore down the whole state organization. How's that for sore losers? Like Clever Gary and his buddy Jamroz.

Yep, it's always jealousy. These guys can't do it so they believe the other team MUST be cheating.

Over on the "professional" board, there was mention of a couple names, people I had personally fucked over. Troy Spillman for one. Well, like all liars, they left out the most important part, that being Troy's partner wasn't a paid member and even after giving the man some time to pay up, he still didn't do it and I was forced to disqualify the team. Everybody felt bad for poor Troy, but everybody else had to be a paid up member, and rules are rules. So, the insinuation was that I'm the big prick for disqualifying Troy. That's how liars operate; half truths.

But, in my opinion, this is getting to be utterly ridiculous. When every coyote has to be on tape, that is where logic is out the door and stupidity takes over. Bring back lie detectors or whatever, but whoever came up with videotaping every kill needs his ass kicked.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 13, 2011, 11:02 PM:
 
Its not that big of a deal, you mount the cam to your scope zero it in so the barrel is out of the way press record and shoot whats comes in. It keeps everyone pretty honest..
There is no more getting beat by a team that shoots uncalled coyotes, after all its a calling contest. You go to a check in and you see a team with 6 coyotes and everyone is shot in or up the ass, either they are piss poor shots or not playing by the rules..

The vid. contest the V.H. puts on is just another way to get a group of guys together and have some fun, there is'nt any big money in it like most of the other contests.. Another neat thing about it, is if you don't like it you don't have to enter..
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 14, 2011, 05:58 AM:
 
Alright, Tim. I'll bite. Put cameras on every gun. Even the low end ones run a hundred bucks. How do you fund that? Add $200 to every entry fee (2 guns per team)? Eat the cost up front? For our hunt, that would mean having to come up with $20,000 when we're struggling to get by now wnad still keep the entry fees affordable. You cannot stick just certain teams with this mandate as it isn't any more right to saddle one team with a disadvantage as it is to allow that same team what you regard to be an unfair advantange. Someone would complain, and damned sure have a right to.

Sometimes, you just have to accept that there are many situations that you can't pass rules for or the whole process gets so bogged down in bullshit that you piss the fun right out of it. That's when you just fall back on good ol' fashioned honor and hope for the best.

BTW, this ban had nothing to do with the baiting issue. I can't say what was at the bottom of it, but I will say that had it been the baiting issue, the matter would have been much more cut and dried. The real reason behind their being banned was an utterly ridiculous and ambiguous decision by Brent's "board". My guess is that should Jeremy and Nick decide to pursue things, they have the grounds for a helluva colorful response. I will only say that if the reason they used was good enough to base banning these guys off of, how safe are the rest of you in that hunt? From what I've heard, not very.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 14, 2011, 07:34 AM:
 
So are Nick and Jeremy banned just as a "team", or can they not participate with different partners?

I still say if they are being banned for cheating, then they should've been stripped of the win in the contest when the "suspected" cheating took place. Banning them from all future contests looks more like someone is trying to please the "nay"sayer crowd, and if that's the case, BAD move by the upper powers.

On edit, if they aren't banned from the contest IF they are seperated, then I hope they take turns entering with seperate partners and hunt thier honey hole and win the contest every year.

[ December 14, 2011, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 14, 2011, 08:07 AM:
 
I sure wish Jeremy would chime in and clarify a few things. It sounds like everything is based on just accusations. Let's hear your side Jeremy.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 14, 2011, 08:58 AM:
 
I had heard the rumors on this a few days ago, hope we get to hear the reasoning. Also hope Jeremy gets on and tells his side of the story. I am guessing most everyone on this board will be on his side.

Without clear cut evidence of cheating and it being shown openly to the public I think its bullshit. It sounds like they just decided they didnt want them in the contest anymore and that was that. I figured the new rule was geared toward them. No matter what if you're at the top the rumors and shit talking follows by those that will never understand. If they have done it legitimately then good for them. I have heard from a number of people that have met and know enough of them that they are legit.

Few things that were mentioned......the lie detector test....I wish they had these at every major contest. If every team pitched in an extra few bucks I think it would be a viable option. Second thing about sending reps. Maybe with the big contests send a rep with the top 10-15 teams from the previous year?? Might be the only way to police the regulars. I realize that new teams would be able to skate past it but it would be the only way to make it work with the larger contests. I do have to admit. Geoff's contest he puts on is pretty neat with the reps with every team. I really like it.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 14, 2011, 09:00 AM:
 
Would someone please provide some more background info on this contest? Do these fellas come in & clean house every year?

If that's the case, then good on 'em!

But whatever the history is, the almighty $$$ can & will take the fun right out of most any type of tournament experience.

Easy for me to say, but I'd keep any payouts limited to entry fees + a maybe a couple bucks for expenses. THEN, donate the rest to a worthy local charity, in the winner's/organizers names.

Or, is it that some of these coyote tournaments are nothing more than a bu$ine$$ to their organizers?
Are most teams entering to capitalize on a potential payday, nothing more?
Doesn't the respect of one's peers count for anything to anyone, anymore?

The VHA video hunt does sound like FUN!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 14, 2011, 09:39 AM:
 

quote:

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the lie detector test....I wish they had these at every major contest. If every team pitched in an extra few bucks I think it would be a viable option.

---

Dustin,

We looked into these. The results are "iffy" at best, and in Kansas, the lowest price I could find to have one done by a reputable technician was around $1300 per test. How much more would you be willing to pay to enter? Makes Tim's $200 for camera for each contestant begin to look good. LOL

And BTW, I chose to go to the source, if you will, and spoke with Jeremy on this. As an associate and a friend, I figured he deserved the opprotunity to present his side. Told him I wouldn't share any details but will say that the reason he isn't here clarifying things is that it isn't in his best interests to do so just yet. Take from that what you will. Don't assume that anyone is guilty because they haven't yet provided evidence in their defense.

I will also say that when you find out the real reason for which they have been banned, you will be rendered speechless. Sorry for the tease, but the truth leaves you to wonder just who the reprobate is and who isn't. Glad to see another hunt making these mistakes. It saves the KPC the pain and anguish of slamming our own d***s in a drawer. I'm all about learning from the failures of my friends. LOL

[ December 14, 2011, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 14, 2011, 09:59 AM:
 
I'm going to say one more thing. Brent Rueb is for Brent Rueb only. Just my observations over a few years.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 14, 2011, 10:10 AM:
 
Lance, if its that much per test thats insane. If it was that much to rent the machine and tech to test the top 5 teams then it would totally be worth it. The results being iffy I didnt know about. I figured they would be better than that. If they are iffy then I guess lie detectors suck lol.

I never once said I assumed they were guilty. Infact the opposite.
 

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Posted by Les Johnson (Member # 3087) on December 14, 2011, 10:21 AM:
 
Lance, please dont stroke Tim's ego on the camera deal...!
Like Geordie, I have been accused of cheating.
Leonard, I can understand how hard it must of been to run a hunt. Rules are in place for a reason, but are always tested. How would the NFL of turned out 15-20 years ago had they had the ability to challenge a particular play or outcome like they do now? Funny how it all changes.
I have competed in competitions from 1990 up until about 2 years ago. Chadron Nebr, Sidney Cabela's Hunt(3 times), the Midwest (6 times), National (14 or more times), World (Cortez, CO twice and Elko, NV once), Northeast Kansas Coyote Challenge (once), Springfield Colorado hunt (twice), etc. Most of these hunts operated similarly. Most hunts had you call and check in at the end of the first day if they were a 2 day hunt. The National was a 2 day hunt, but you were required to drive back and check in the first days coyotes and all coyotes had to have mouth blocks with time of kill and they were temperature probed. If any coyotes were colder than they should've been as compared to alot of coyotes that were killed within proximity of time, then that coyote was thrown aside and the team members talked to. Norm Heater had 15+ years of temperature data on coyote temperatures and time of kill, etc. Very interesting data to say the least.
Springfield Colorado put on a hunt like Geoff does. Each team had a judge or guide. The judge/guide actually had an area where you were alloted to hunt and he had all of the permission all lined up, etc. You drew your judge/guide's name out of a hat at the time of the pre-meeting. I had alot of fun at that hunt and it was only a 1 day event. You may draw a Judge/guide that only had land that was as flat as a pancake with nothing but farmland whereas another judge/guide had areas with canyons and large pastures, etc.
Oh and Tim...what is it that you know about filming coyote kills?
LJ
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 14, 2011, 10:24 AM:
 
Great to see you, Les, and thanks for being the first to break this developing story. BTW, are we going to see you and Jeff at the KPC January 27-29? Lotsa coyotes around here this year and I'm thinking it'll be a great hunt.
 

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Posted by Les Johnson (Member # 3087) on December 14, 2011, 11:05 AM:
 
Thanks Lance! I would have to check my schedule but I may be able to sneak in an appearance to your event. As far as the competing, I have pretty much retired from that, but really enjoying seeing all of the competitors and visiting with everyone. Let's keep in touch.
LJ
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2011, 11:30 AM:
 
I'd sure like to know reasons? Damn it Lance, don't I rate at least an email?

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 14, 2011, 12:07 PM:
 
Leonard,

Contact Jeremy. I'll leave it to him as to what he wants to share. He's staying on top of these developments and is relatively opn in his comments, but they're not mine to share and I told him I wouldn't..

Les,

I know that we would all really like that. Understood on the retirement thing. Unless you've competed, you can't appreciate the difference between that and a regular two days of hunting.

[ December 14, 2011, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2011, 01:01 PM:
 
I guess I shouldn't impose on his privacy. My curiosity will just have to wait until he's ready.

But, I know Brent Rueb, a little bit anyway. He may be a self promoter, but I don't have a feeling that he's dishonest or anything like that? I have to assume he has valid concerns. At the same time; I have to assume Jeremy is innocent. (spoken like a true politician)

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 14, 2011, 02:53 PM:
 
... and gunsmith!?

This is all very interesting. Makes me want to enter or organize a hunt
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 14, 2011, 03:20 PM:
 
Les; Gee thanks for the kind words.. I'll keep this in mind next time I'm at Scheels or on one of the forums and someone asks about your calls... ( Yeah I have a set of them)

As for filming kills, yeah I get a few on the cam. every year just like a few of the other members here. No big whoop.. Hell I was even lucky enough to get one of my pictures used in the Trapper/Pred. caller rag..(Thanks to Lance) Again no big whoop..

Now days everyone wants proof on things that a person may have accomplished.. As had been mentioned put a ride along with the top ten teams or vid. there kills.. I don't think its that big of a hassle unless someone has something to hide.

As for Peterson and Gugglemyer all I'm saying is lift the ban,let them back in as long as they are willing to film there kills. If they go and win or place high in the contest there then should be no question to there honesty.....
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 14, 2011, 04:05 PM:
 
timmy t-bag......you don't listen well do you.

Video them during the contest?!? Sheeeeesh!

Les, don't worry I'll promote your calls a little extra to make up for timmys boycott
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 14, 2011, 05:23 PM:
 
TA, we need a CT Scan of your skull to be sure there's a working organ up there. Then there'll be no question that you're truly a blithering tool and not just funnin' us. We need picture evidence. Post the pics or it doesn't exist.

They may have banned Jeremy because they were tired of writing his long and hard to pronounce name?

[ December 14, 2011, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2011, 05:53 PM:
 
Wait a minute, I find that offensive as another person stuck with a difficult name to spell and pronounce.

Oh, it's just smithers. Never mind.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 14, 2011, 06:20 PM:
 
Has anyone else ever been banned because they kicked the crap out of the competition every year?

LB, don't you have some gunsmithing to do or some Russian code intelligence to decipher? Stop busting my balls, I'm very sensitive and self conscious this time of year. The coyotes are putting me through the ringer.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 14, 2011, 06:38 PM:
 

quote:

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The coyotes are putting me through the ringer.

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Ain't that the truth..
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 14, 2011, 08:19 PM:
 
Did you finally get that first one for the year Chris? I got one yesterday, with some help. Working off one of my feedlots in a small pasture with about sixty head of longhorns. Mangey coyote comes charghing in with 30+ pissed off longhorn cows hot on his butt. I woofed him to a stop. He stopped. They stopped. I shot. Coyote went down and the lead cow - a large mean old red bitch with 48-inches of hardware to make her point with- charged at him as he lay there twitching one hindleg. Kinda made me nervous, too. Killed two the day before that on the same stand, fifteen seconds apart. 180 yards and 340 yards. Both DRT. I just don't understand why you're having so much trouble with this.

Edit to add that no, I don't have pics. I was by myself. Shot the first one, saw the other one. he was going away and I shot him so far out that I didn't hear the bullet hit him. My knee is all jacked up again and I'm lim,ping around and my first thought was , "Shit, now I have to walk clear out there and get both of them. "

Since both of them were shot in the butt, I'm guessing neither of them would have been allowed in a contest?

[ December 14, 2011, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 15, 2011, 06:09 AM:
 
Lance, I've called in 7 in 25-30 stands and shot a whopping zero. Wind, distance, gear, I smell... Those are my excuses.

Kinda puts a damper on my lofty goal! There's still time though
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2011, 02:27 PM:
 
for smithers; the "and gunsmith" in my sig line can be explained by reading the HELP thread. It's well earned.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 15, 2011, 02:56 PM:
 
Thank LB, I'll relay that to smithers and explain it s-l-o-w-l-y to Lance.

[ December 15, 2011, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 15, 2011, 03:20 PM:
 
Screw you Tim!

TA "Les; Gee thanks for the kind words.. I'll keep this in mind next time - someone asks me about your calls..."

Hopefully you'll tell the truth, when asked about the calls, not make up some emotionally driven bullshit lies, because Les hurt your feelings.

Happy Holidays guys!

Krusty

*Edit: can't open with the F word, and end with Happy Holidays

[ December 15, 2011, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 15, 2011, 03:47 PM:
 
Krusty is my Lonny! Lol. He posts only when I do.
Hey, Krusty! I wanted to ask you what you use to put the 'dent' in your dual reeds. I use mine so much that I chewed through the double stack. I'm using the single but like the dual better.

[ December 15, 2011, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 15, 2011, 04:51 PM:
 
LJ and LH

read below
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 15, 2011, 05:12 PM:
 
If you have proof of cheating bring it forward and address it to the masses. You need to bring forward the information and show the rest of the entries you have kept a level playing field on truthful reported incidents or you loose entries.

Another aspect is the dominance of one team hurting the attendance in future events? Personally I always wanted to beat the best fair and square whenever wherever. I thought this type of deal was already being addressed at the Midwest. Aren't there stipulations about winning etc?

If Jeremy's attendance in the event was causing other teams to not attend to such a degree that the event was suffering, well I can see that to a point, but I doubt that is the case. It sounds like some micro managing. You start this kind of stuff and you loose entries on both sides and pretty soon you've got nothing. You loose some who were never in it for the long haul and the veterans because of the unfounded accusations.

Don't know Jeremy personally but from everyone I know who does they only say good things about him. IMO that says a lot! On the other hand I can not say the same for the others involved.

Either way you look at it, it puts a black eye on the whole deal.

LJ, I luv your calls and you all may not be aware of this, he is also a world class walleye fisherman with an awesome boat, at least what I saw in the pics, he dissed me when he was up here this summer!! LOL Good to see ya on her again!
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 15, 2011, 05:14 PM:
 
LJ,Oh yea I forgot, I wear a 2XL in the Hoodie!!!
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 15, 2011, 05:48 PM:
 
Randy R, you helped create the monster! You're Dr. FrankenRoede. Your beast has come unhinged and is running amok, sullying your good name and taking your experience as his own. Sorry...
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 15, 2011, 06:38 PM:
 
Chris it's all good, some better than others but it could always be worse.

We got the VHA Video contest this Sat. I am looking forward to paticipating and a relaxing day of recreatinal calling with good friends, during and after!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 15, 2011, 06:53 PM:
 
I agree, Randy. And, as a hunt coordinator, we feel the evidence to support a banning, and even a disqualification, has to be 100% bulletproof. Think of it as being like the rules about replay/ review in college football. In order to reverse the decision on the field, the evidence in the review has to be incontrovertible, otherwise, the original call stands.

As far as banning a team because they're consistently winning, making it hard for the also rans to keep up. Another football analogy...

My son was a freshman in high school. The varsity team played our school rival on Friday night and got beat 27-0. The Junior Varsity played Monday night and got beat 10-0.

My son's class had exceptional talent and smoked their freshman squad 37-0 Tuesday night, the total of both the other games combined. Afterwards, when they got back home, the varsity coach was there to chew their asses out for "running up the score". My son was sincerely upset for the ass chewing when he got home and asked me if I could explain why that had happened.

I told him that, IMO, you never run half throttle. You do your best and let the chips fall where they will. I asked him what was more humiliating to the losing team... getting smoked by the best your opponent has to offer, and staying in there for all four quarters, or getting beat by their cheerleaders and the bus driver because they ran out of people who played down to your level and had to take walk ons and volunteers?

If I'm going to compete, and if things are such that I'm going to get beat, I want to walk from the drubbing knowing that I got beat by the best they had to throw at me and that no one went easy on me to spare my feelings. It was once said on this very site that "there's no crying in coyote hunting." And, by God, there isn't.

Old sayings get to be old because they're usually accurate, and this leads me to think about the one, "I'd rather apologize than ask permission any day."

If someone wants to tackle the Midwest and they genuinely want to win and be considered the best of the best, Jeremy and Nick set the bar. Anything less ain't enough.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 15, 2011, 07:16 PM:
 

quote:

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LJ: "It has been discussed and voted on, the team of Peterson and Gugglemyer will not be competing in the 2012 Midwest Coyote Calling Event or future Midwest Coyote Calling Events. The board realizes that without 100% proof that this team has harvested coyotes against the rules of the competition that we need to keep the integrity of the hunt".

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Without 100% proof Jeremy and Nick are
banned???? Did I read that correctly?

Whatever happened to the presumption of innocense?

This looks more like, "where there's smoke THERE'S ARSON" to me.

I guess we should hope the board never serves on jury duty huh?

I've hunted with Nick and Jeremy and they're good hunters, they hunt hard, and they have an excellent place to hunt. If they have a few carcass piles on their ranch and ambushed some coyotes, so what! They probably didn't do anything that others haven't done other than winning 4 times. Seems that's when the rules start changing.

Nick and Jeremy set the bar high and that's what I appreciate about them.

Sounds like sour grapes to me from those who aren't man enough to compete against them. The Heid boys met the same fate from jealousy in the ND contests but I can guarantee that there is few coyote callers that hunt as hard as those two do.

Nick and Jeremy,

You guys are always welcome at my campfire.

C-dog,

Your post shared my sentiments exactly. What the hell is the difference between locating a family group and ambushing them or shooting coyotes on a carcass?? Neither are called in. Heck I know guys that think they have a better chance of killing more coyotes by calling them from the carcass rather than ambushing them on a carcass.

You are also right about the enforceability of rules. My partner and I were banned from the National because of the side by side rule which is an unenforceable rule. We saw guys splitting up on seperate 4 wheelers and talked to a number of teams that were splitting from the same vehicle. So I took a "can't beat em' join them" attitude about it and walked out from the same truck in seperate directions and someone turned us in.

In hind sight we should not have entered a contest unless we could live with the rules and only if those rules were enforceable. That was our mistake but it might help explain why the National is not the hunt it once was. Either way, the side by side rule is a stupid rule and I refuse to enter any contest where you have to hold hands on the same stand.

The only way the playing field will ever be level enough to really sort out the better coyote hunters would be to have a full 2 - 3 day contest and draw for areas. Then nobody would have an advantage. On the second day, you'd have to hunt where another team hunted the day before. The longer the contest, the more the cream rises to the top.

Like I said before, the number of coyote calling experts is directly proportionate to the coyote population in the area they are hunting. I remember a team at the Nationals that saw 10 coyotes and killed 8. They didn't win but I sure gave them the cigar. Far more impressive than a team seeing 52 coyotes and only killing 13.

I think unfair criticism has been leveled at Brent Rueb. I have been in a lot of contests in many states and I think Brent has done a far better job than most. I think Brent is a standup guy in a no-win situation. I don't know his role in the Jeremy and Nick situation but I'm sure he was being pushed and pulled. I have nothing but respect for Brent Rueb and how he run the Midwest which is why there has been as high as 150 teams participating.

Les,

I'm curious, what's the purpose of coming here to torch Jeremy and Nick?

If the board made a decision without 100% proof they should live with the decision. I don't see the need to piss on these men when they are down.

Is the board looking for moral support for their decision?

One thing I can say for Jeremy and Nick, they never saw the need to set up a table to display their trophies.

"Let's get to callin, huh?"

~SH~

[ December 16, 2011, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 15, 2011, 08:02 PM:
 
Great input, Scott. As far as Les, though, I don't take any of what he posted here as torching Jeremy or Nick. Quite the opposite, in fact. The letter he posted is pretty much what those who rec'd it got, and I took his posting it as someone putting it in a public venue for open discussion so others know what is going on with the guys. I don't see where Les has staked out a position yet. All in perception, I guess. Maybe I missed something.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 15, 2011, 08:08 PM:
 
I think your right CDog. Scott, I think Les got the letter everyone else got and was looking for an explanation, hoping someone here knew why they were being DQ'd from hunting there. I think Les is top notch and consider him a friend. I think he is questioning the motives of the midwest hunt also. As for me, until someone can come up with a legitimate explanation for not allowing Jeremy and Nick in the hunt, I would reccomend a boycott. Not just the hunt but speak to the sponsors as well. I have a couple I will be talking to in the next day or two.

[ December 15, 2011, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2011, 10:56 PM:
 
That's my attitude, as well. I don't think Les did anything but ask for an explanation, he didn't make the accusations; the "board of directors" made the decision and said at the same time, that they did not have the proof that would hold up in the court of public opinion.

Scott, I think you generally have your ducks in a row. Being friends with Jeremy and Nick is fine, but As Cal just said, all Les did was post the bare facts and he didn't editorialize beyond the statement made by the board.

I think everybody here wants more than what is offered, and what they said is completely unfair. If they have proof they need to spit it out. If they have suspicions, they should clearly state that they have suspicions that this team violated the spirit of the hunt rules, rather than being able to point to a specific violation.

I think baiting is a situation where a team can violate a rule on a technicality, ie: there were dead piles. Or, a team could be guilty of an ethical violation if they had something to do with the preparation and there had been a long deliberate and concerted effort at grooming the playing field.

Then, the question becomes, is there a clear rule that covers the situation, or does it fall into a gray area? And, if the "Board" can't define the rule to eliminate this thing, and can't enforce accidental situations, what can be done to eliminate the perception that somebody has a built in advantage?

I don't have any inside information, at all. I'm just using an example. But, as Scott said; I also don't like "unenforceable" rules. Like team members hunting separately. Especially if a team is behind locked gates and they are free to split up, for example, without fear of getting caught.

Anyway, this deal is bad policy. No question. These people either have proof or they don't?

They can't state publicly that "they don't have 100% proof, BUT they are going to blackball a certain team from participating. What the hell is that? And, that's where we are, at the moment.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2011, 11:15 PM:
 
I know a couple hundred guys that I would classify as "hard hunters". This is important, in a contest, but it's not the only thing that separates the men from the boys.

I have said many times that my problem with the Midwest is that the playing field is not level. It is not even close to being level. There are only a small number of teams that actually have a chance and it's because they have nailed down exclusive access to prime hunting areas behind locked gates. You could put six dozen "hard hunters" behind these locked gates and the results would be the same, like shooting ducks in a barrel. It's all predetermined, just don't miss.

And, that is the whole problem with Brent's hunt. It's not fair. If everybody was restricted to public land, the "hard hunters" would have to depend on scouting and a little luck.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 16, 2011, 01:37 AM:
 
I hope you guys are right in that I misread Les' intentions here. I read his post as support for the board's decision and missed the "explanation ?" title of Les' thread. If you guys are right, then I apologize for misreading the intent. Wasn't even sure who "the board" of the MCCE was or who sat on it. This is the first I have heard of a MCCE board. What I read appeared to be throwing the boots to these boys when they were down and it pissed me off.

Would have been more self-explanatory with a "this is the email I received" introduction.

You are right Leonard, there is a lot of teams that have sewed up prime real estate in these contests. That's part of the game and everyone knows that going in. Everyone is looking for the best places and some guys are very good at it and have a lot of connections. Nothing in the rules against that but it's as level as the playing field is going to get without drawing for areas or making everyone hunt public land. I have competed in contests in 5 different states and the Midwest is as level as the playing got as far as the contests I participated in. That's why we have stayed in it for so long.

Some teams have a honey hole close to the contest giving them 2 more hours of hunting than those of us who are driving longer distances to beat the crowd. You know that going in. We had guys hunting ahead of us and it was obvious when the coyotes started circling at a half mile. Really tests your sanity.

Like you said it goes beyond "hunting hard", you have to shoot them too. Nick and Jeremy did it consitently. Nick and Jeremy have become friends because of the quality of guys they both are and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this too.

This does look like a gray area but I know for fact how jealous some guys can get. I was standing in the checkin line and overheard conversations accusing Nick and Jeremy of cheating simply because they killed a lot more coyotes than anyone else. Once again, I had the right to remain silent but didn't have the ability so I asked the guy for the basis of his allegations. He simply couldn't relate to someone that could kill that many coyotes which wasn't surprising since he'd been drinking beer for the last hour watching the teams roll in.

It reminds me of a trapping board situation where someone was spouting off about how western coyote trappers can't cut it in the east until a couple friends of mine went to Indiana and killed 400 coyotes in a few short weeks and filmed the whole thing. Their first catch was 35 on a 24 hour check. Some guys simply cannot relate to what others are capable of doing when they put their minds to it.

This whole thing doesn't sit right with me. As far as the Midwest, not interested anymore.

~SH~

[ December 16, 2011, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 16, 2011, 02:07 AM:
 
Here's the rule on baiting as it's stated in the MCCE rules.

7. Coyotes can NOT be baited. Baits of all kinds are not allowed. All coyotes are to be called in, the intentional use of dead livestock to draw coyotes to a spacific location for the purpose of ambush shooting in not allowed. This is a calling contest to promote the art of coyote calling, not ambush shooting.

So technically, you shouldn't shoot coyotes off any carcass or deadpile you might stumble across whether it's been placed or not because that would be "intentional use". LOL! If you could enforce that you wouldn't have many teams left. I can't tell you how many teams I have overheard talk about calling coyotes or ambushing them off a dead pile near a dairy, hog confinement or feedlot.

That rule is poorly worded. Should be "intentionally placed" to discourage the practice but I wouldn't hang anyone for it without solid proof. It's certainly a gray area to me.

It also sounds like locating a family group and slipping in on them without calling them is questionable since you are "ambushing" those coyotes and not calling them. Ooops, lost a bunch more teams.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 16, 2011, 06:00 AM:
 
Scott,

That rule was just passed and put in place about three months ago, if memory serves me right. My guess is that passing it and making it official were just the precursor to this latest act, a first step seeking appeasement, and doing so did not achive the desired results, so they banned them on conjecture alone. But, I'm only speculating and throwing darts in the dark here.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 16, 2011, 07:48 AM:
 
I didnt see it as Les was calling Jeremy and Nick out or slamming them. I took it as a "what's going on here" type of deal. Both Brent and Jeremy are on this board and numorous others that may have some insight to the situation.

Most of us here have heard or know about the dead piles at special locations...who really cares. Honestly...no I was not looking forward to competing against them and if they didnt enter I was gonna be relieved. That said...I WAS looking forward to pushing ourselves to beat or at least compete with them and we set our goals at doing just that. It would be fun to see someone legitimately beat them. No, we probly dont have much of a chance at it but pushing yourselves for improvement due to competition is what its all about anyways right?? Also I will say I have been guilty of the "no fucking way can they shoot that many" type of thinking. That was my first year of contests, I didnt understand and I was even more green than I am now. I believe that was Nick and Jeremy's first year of winning it. As the years go on and you learn, improve, and push yourself you start to see how and why teams like that win. From a rookie's perspective it is bullshit and sad to see a team get booted because they are too dominant. I dont think that there is a speck of evidence that they cheated, because they most likely didnt. Im sure pressure from other teams or others involved had a lot to do with it. We are rookies and have a lot to learn thats just my 2 cents as someone that was going to be competing against them.

LB, as far as the level playing field. Its pretty darn level in my opinion. Everyone in that room has same exact amount of time and opportunity to line up ground. Everyone has a mouth and legs and a vehicle. Thats all it takes to line up "exclusive" hunting rights. It sure shortens the curve if you have connections and especially if your family owns the place. But everyone in that room has the same chance to walk up and knock on the same doors I do or many of the other teams (as long as you get there first). Its the additional effort to do so that separates a lot of the teams as far as property to hunt.

One more quick note. If Brent wanted to put a stop to what Nick/Jeremy are doing. Instead of a new bait rule and instead of just kicking them out just because they wanted more teams. Change the damn rules about winning it multiple years. Make it that you sit two years after you win or make it so you sit out one year and can only enter every other year if you win. Not saying those are ideal or the best ideas but dont go directly after one team because they are better than everyone else. Eventually someone else is going to come along and do the same thing, dominate every year they enter, then what. Make up rules geared towards them or kick them out too??
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on December 16, 2011, 09:51 AM:
 
I agree with Cdog911 I did not see anywhere that Les did anything more than put some information out there. He did not take a stand one way or the other.

As for Tim, losing your endorsement is probably the nicest thing I've seen you offer anyone. To the contrary having your endorsement is no big whoop.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 16, 2011, 12:39 PM:
 
Silence from those that are involved and "in the know" can be interpreted as either prudent or scandalous. It seems that in this case and on this board the latter is true, one has to wonder why the silence.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2011, 12:41 PM:
 
Other boards know what happened? I'm shocked!

gh....lb
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 16, 2011, 12:56 PM:
 
Didn't mean to imply that other boards knew anything, I haven't heard anything else from anywhere else. But the silence IS peculiar, yes?
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 16, 2011, 01:17 PM:
 
Why hasn't the MCCE Board posted this information on their very own website or Facebook? Something's strange when the information is trickled out to forums rather than it coming from the horses mouth on the farm itself.

Maybe the banning resides on their website:

http://www.midwestcoyotecallingevent.com/

I can't find it though.

Who are all the members on the MCCE Board?
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 16, 2011, 01:40 PM:
 
From the site, TWookie posted, regarding the '11 contest...

With a pending strom coming in alot of teams did not return for the Sunday check-in. 85 teams returned and most of the teams hauled in plenty of coyotes. The average of coyotes per team harvest was up from 4.25 to 4.66 coyotes per team. Everything went very smooth and there were no infractions at all

I think I'll ask them on Facebook

[ December 16, 2011, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 16, 2011, 02:01 PM:
 
3Toes,
You mention a letter that everyone got. What letter is that and who would have received it (if you know this info)?

Les obviously is privy to information regarding this and can hopefully answer my question regarding who sits on the MCCE board as well. Another question I have that Les might be able to help me answer is this; Is the MCCE a non-profit or for-profit organization? Thanks.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2011, 02:47 PM:
 
My guess is for profit. I don't think Brent is in this thing as a charitable contribution? And, that is not a reflection on his motivation.

One thing that bothered me, that my friend Scott wrote. (and he is a good friend, and that's why I can say this)

I think it was a bit of a cheap shot to make the remark about Les setting out trophy's. He is trying to make a buck with his TV show, etc so I don't fault him for tooting his horn a bit. He has won and won big and has (from what I can determine?) an unblemished reputation. And, I like him. He gets a pass on self promotion....now let's get to hunting, heh heh.

No big deal, Scott. You are still da bomb, in my book.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 16, 2011, 04:25 PM:
 
I would have to say Les is a class act. He works very hard a putting out a good show and promoting it. Its without a doubt the best offering in the predator hunting genre. now back to figuring out what this is all about.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2011, 04:42 PM:
 
I got this interesting email from a member who decided to contribute in this way instead of posting on the Board?

quote:

---

Might mention to tundra that the letter was posted on the MCCE website until the
day after LJ post. It just up and disappeared

---

quote:

---

There just isn't many coyotes that have not been subjected to calling numerous times by January but I think I've found the solution.....

~SH~

---

Now there's an intriguing subject.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2011, 12:57 PM:
 
I don't know about that, but I blame Foxpro for arming every swinging dick in the country. The host of the ranch we hunted in eastern Colorado let slip that he put his flashlight caller on the hood of his truck every time he was out taking care of his cows, not to mention banging away with his AR at every coyote spotted while driving. No wonder the coyotes were running the other way!

I'm all ears for solutions.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 17, 2011, 05:40 PM:
 
It's called progress folks, get used to it or get outta the way.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 17, 2011, 06:40 PM:
 

quote:

---

Huns: "When I was calling back in the 50's, there was only a handful of callers and it was Exceptional".

---

An Olt D2 Duck call.....Cool! You were there when it all began. You probably bought one of the first Tally Ho's from Tal Lockwood.

I can remember in the early 70's when we started seeing coyotes showing up around Lowry. It was such a novelty at the time. I still have the pictures of the first coyote we trapped in the Lowry hills. I remember how big it looked in contrast to a coyote for a 12 year old.

~SH~
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 17, 2011, 08:46 PM:
 
Yes, I was there Scott. I did get one of the Tal Lockwoood calls also. The lowery Hills brings up an interesting topic: Coyotes. I went through there not too long ago and it looks like coyote country to me. I took the backroads and drove to Wishek, North Dakota. Got to be the sausage capital of the world. I picked up 60 rings and I think it is the best around. The ole German fellow makes about 80,000lbs out of the Super Value Wishek.
I always thought that area of lowry would be a great place for calling coyotes. From what a fellow told me, McPherson county is loaded with coyotes. Have a Happy holiday and kill some coyotes.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 18, 2011, 09:08 AM:
 
After three pages this one should be ripe for hi-jacking;

My first call was a Weems Dual Tone. Bought it from Wally Tabor himself at one of his presentations. Probably back in the mid to late 60s. Things sure have changed since then. Some things for the better.......some things; not so much.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 20, 2011, 03:11 PM:
 
Well since we're on the subject of first calls... mine was, also, a modified P.S. Olt duck call.

Smithers,

Sorr about the delay in answering your question, I waited until hi-jacking was acceptable (thanks Kokopelli).

I use the back end of a #10 Boye crochet hook, because it fits in a small file handle perfectly.
It's got a perfect cone shape to the tip, but when the crochet hook was misplaced for a while, I used the slightly blunted tip of a 16d nail.

The indent doesn't need to be huge. I used a soft piece of pine as a backer, then after the dent was made, I'd chase around the "high side" of the bump with a thumbnail so it wasn't too wide/tall.

Hope that helps.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2011, 05:45 PM:
 
Afraid to hijack a thread? Since when?

My first call was a Circe jackrabbit. I still have it, but it's sort of retired. The mouthpiece looks like a beaver or maybe termites have got at it, but I did it myself.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 20, 2011, 08:25 PM:
 
Hey Krusty..............What did you do??? Get out of the rain for a while???

"Yes Virginia, there is a Krusty"

Sorry......couldn't resist.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2011, 08:52 PM:
 
Be careful, koko. Up in "God's Country", or as normal people call it; The Suicide Capital of the World, when they are depressed, and haven't had their SUNSHINE THERAPY in a while, ANYTHING is liable to set them off.

I sincerely wonder how they cope, what with the fucking rain every day?

If I had to live up there, I'd shoot myself! Twice, just to make sure I'm put out of my misery.

gh....lb
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2011, 09:08 PM:
 
Meanwhile:


 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 20, 2011, 10:24 PM:
 
Come on out LB, I've got some ranches to hunt.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 21, 2011, 07:17 AM:
 
So am I reading this right? Nick and Jeremy have possibly been hunting over bait piles to some extent? So, up until this next contest there was no rule stating that doing so was grounds for disqualification? So, now the rule is going into affect, and the powers to be are going to go ahead and ban Nick and Jeremy assumming that they would continue to hunt over bait piles, even with the new rule going into affect. Basically charging them of cheating without ever doing so in the past?

Talk about being "guilty" before doing the crime, seems to be a prime example.
 

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Posted by Chris S (Member # 3888) on December 21, 2011, 07:52 AM:
 
It's possibly the first preemptive banning of a team in history. Lame.

Krusty, thanks for the info. Waiting for a thread to be hijacked!? Lol. Has a subject gone more than 7 replies w/out it being hijacked? Roving bands of Alzheimer's addled geezers roam these hills.

[ December 21, 2011, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Chris S ]
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 21, 2011, 09:29 AM:
 
And there's still nothing formal on the MCCE website or FaceBook page. No sign of who sits on the MCCE board either who made the decision. How formal of an announcement is this and is it really "official" yet?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2011, 09:56 AM:
 
I have had some feedback that garden variety baiting is not the issue, however I'm still not what you would call "informed" by any means?

gh....lb
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 21, 2011, 11:35 AM:
 
What exactly IS "garden variety baiting"? I believe it was mentioned here at HM a few years ago that Jeremy hunted over a designated dead pile for a feed yard or some such and had some great success, no big deal to me but I wouldn't enter a contest knowing that a local had that sort of a set up, that seems a little more serious than just throwing out part of last weeks deer carcass and hoping for the best. On the other hand I have to agree with Troy....if this is the first year for the rule how can they be charged with a crime. Has anyone tried to contact the "board"?
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 21, 2011, 11:51 AM:
 
I emailed Brent asking my questions about the "board" and also if anything is going to be officially posted on the MCCE website or FaceBook. Brent's listed as the event coordinator, so I figured he might have the answers.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 21, 2011, 02:03 PM:
 
JD, I would define "garden variety baiting" as serendipity finding one dead cow while scouting.

The exclusive use of a feedlot dead pile is more like busting caps on colony prairie dogs. That is, (to my mind) a stacked deck.

But look. We still don't know what it's all about, or if this speculation is anywhere near accurate? And, even if it is, has it ever been a violation of the posted hunt rules?

gh....lb
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 23, 2011, 10:02 PM:
 
Late to the thread but here is my 2 cents. I have not read every post..but......I do have some experience on the subject. I have ran 30+ tournaments over the past 10 years and have payed out over $190,000 in cash and prizes. I have dealt with a lot of issues at these hunts over the years. We have used Polygraphs in the past and yes they are expensive but I think the expense is worth it. If you really think a team is cheating it helps clear things up and shows that you are serious about weeding out the bad apples. If they are not cheating then it clears that up as well. We do use core temps, blocking, one on one questioning and written essay questions.....but when you have a team consistanly putting up some big numbers it helps with everyones confidence that they are doing it by the rules if you have them take a poly. If you think you can beat it...well you have been watching to many spy movies. they are very reliable in this format. Its not a murder trial.........its a coyote hunt. Very few questions and it takes more time to set up then take the test. Video has its own issues and that Nebraska hunt allows your 3rd man judge to carry a gun and his coyotes count towards your total. !??! A judge with every team on every stand is a good idea but in practice it to has its problems. Another discussion maybe. As far as the Midwest tournament. I personally feel that was a poor way of handleing the issue. It should be done at the time of the check ins and with out real proof to post it on a forum such as this seems very unfair. Those two are welcome to hunt any of our tournaments, I have heard nothing but good things about them. The issue with one team winning every year should be addressed in the rules, in my opinion.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2011, 10:43 AM:
 
I agree with most of what is written above, especially the lie detector part.

What I don't accept is the suggestion that by posting the original inquiry here on Huntmasters, we have done something injurious to either of the two men in question.

I think we have the right and duty to examine the situation and attempt to sort it out, one way or the other. What would you have us do, hush it up, say nothing? That might be best for timid souls, but around here, we are going to discuss issues and let the chips fall where they may.

gh....lb

quote:

---

and with out real proof to post it on a forum such as this seems very unfair.

---

quote:

---

It should be done at the time of the check ins and with out real proof to post it on a forum such as this seems very unfair.

---

This has nothing to do with the particular issue at hand, but this suggestion is not always practical either. The KPC relies on a number of different potential information sources both during the hunt, and (as much as two weeks) afterwards, to ferret out anyone who might think they can circumvent the rules and get away with it.

For example, we, too, use the blocks (this year we will be going to special tags), core temps, and questionnaires designed to determine with certainty (the best we can) that everything is legitimate. In the weeks leading up to the hunt itself, we contact and advise wildlife officials of the hunt and they are aware of the rules under which we operate. They know that if a complaint is made against "coyote hunters" and there is even the slightest chance they are part of our event, we want to know about it. They also know we have full vehicle descriptions, tag numbers and hunters' names. A trespassing charge in our hunt will get you DQ'd.

The coyotes are subjected to inspection at check in, as well as by a very informed furbuyer who examines ecah and every coyote he skins very closely, with special attention being given to any team's coyotes that are "in the money".

Additionally, we pursue other avenues, as well, but we do not disclose what they are because, quite frankly, there are always those who find their special purpose being to try and get one over on us.

I've never seen a lie detector in use, and the reason we reject its use is purely a matter of cost. The KPC is and has always been promoted as a competition hunt for the average guy. Our teams consist of fathers and son, fathers and daughters, old friends, buddies and, for the most part, the demographic that wants to participate for fun and the experience where egoes aren't so much the issue. We do everything we can to keep our entry fees affordable while at the same time high enough to offer an attractive prize package.

If and when we have an instance where we sincerely feel cheating occurred, I have access to something better than a lie detector - a criminal investigator trained in interrogation by both the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. You might think of yourself as a good liar, but this guy has seen it all and can pick out a lie better than any machine. I have yet to see an instance where I felt it was necessary to ask for his assistance.

Baiting was not an issue in this matter. Nor was there any actual rules violation, as I understand it. It will be up to Jeremy to speak to this issue when he is better able to do so. I would only ask that no one speculate as to what is what until the facts come out, and I'm reasonably sure that they will.

Fact is, this issue affects many folks on this board, whether they are contestants in the Midwest or they are friends of those charged. When the above e-mail went out, the matter became one of public knowledge and if the authors are uncomfortable with that, they should have thought long and hard before hitting the "send" button. Doing so opened them up to public opinion, discussion, and criticism. They will be judged by the jury of public opinion and I applaud the dialogue to date as this matter is hashed out. Aristotle once said, "Criticism is something we can avoid by saying nothing, doing nothing, being nothing", one of my favorite quotes. Another is (posted here previously), "Screw the critics. If they knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't be critics." You gotta love Mark Twain.

When I feel that I'm right, I don't mind being criticised for speaking my mind.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 26, 2011, 12:36 PM:
 
I am paying $250 per test on a polygraph. Does all the local goverment testing, 29 years of experience, will travel if I need him to , works weekends and is easy to work with. So if I understand correctly, you are saying that there is no rules violation......and they are being banned from the hunt.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2011, 02:11 PM:
 
Well then, it sounds like?
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 26, 2011, 03:05 PM:
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, but banned for breaking a rule that hasn't been made yet?????
That sounds like the kind of thing a liberal would do to make it `fair`.
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 26, 2011, 04:30 PM:
 
Coyotehunter

Out of curiosity, where all have you produced tournaments?
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 26, 2011, 10:18 PM:
 
North Dakota and Minnesota. I have one tentatively scheduled in Montana for 2012. The North Dakota Coyote Classic is the biggest hunt we run. About $100,000 in cash and prizes paid out over the past 9 years.

[ December 27, 2011, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 27, 2011, 10:17 AM:
 
Coyotehunter

I would like to hear your explaination of why the Heid brothers were banned from your hunts for life? It is my understanding that you had them take a lie detector test which they passed and was still not satisfied with the results of them passing, so they later had to take a second lie detector test which they passed also. Why should a team be kicked out of your hunt for life if they were able to pass the lie detector twice?
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 27, 2011, 06:44 PM:
 
No one made them take a lie detecor twice........these things of a way of just getting out of hand. that just is not true at all. No one ever accused them of cheating from my group. What hunt are you refering to?
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 27, 2011, 08:08 PM:
 
So are they allowed to participate in the North Dakota hunt? What are you referring to as getting out of hand?
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 27, 2011, 08:39 PM:
 
Just a gross distortion on the facts. So you are not even sure what hunt you are talking about. Just fishing for gossip maybe.....I do not have anything bad to say about the Heide brothers and I have never accussed them of cheating....privately or publicly. To have a public discussion about an individual with a complete stranger (anonymous to boot) is just not something I am comfortable with. This was the point I was making with my original post.

(to many spelling errors, I had to edit it)

[ December 27, 2011, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
 

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Posted by Inoculation (Member # 2229) on December 27, 2011, 09:17 PM:
 
I don't know Jeremy or his partner. I know they have some good ground to call and they know how to shoot.

I also know that these "calling contests" are trying to make money. When a team dominates and makes others stay home, the money train slows down. When you slow the money train, you wear out your welcome. It's not the first time and it won't be the last.

And Rueb??? LMFAO!
 

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Posted by coyote down (Member # 2887) on December 27, 2011, 09:20 PM:
 
Are they allowed to participate in the North Dakota Coyote Classic?
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 27, 2011, 10:39 PM:
 
Well I hope everyone can at least get a sense of how difficult it is to run a hunt. Loudest boos always come from the cheap seats. It is a lot of work and seems like the guys who appreciate it the most are the ones who never have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. It is a running joke at events to see which guy is going to get the drunkest and have the "fix" for everything that is wrong with a tournament. Here is a rule from our hunts.

22. Sportsmanship. Any team—upon the sole discretion of the tournament director—that shows a lack of consideration for other teams, the rules, or is just being an all-around asshole, will be refunded their entry fee and asked to leave. If it is determined that any team or team member who—in the past—has a history of questionable actions, coyotes, behavior, etc., that is deemed detrimental to the enjoyment of the tournament by others, they will be banned from entering the tournament. No team has an inherent right to hunt tournaments sponsored, promoted or officiated by Coyotehunter.net, and Coyotehunter.net reserves the right to refuse entry to any team or team member who has displayed the above-mentioned unsportsmanship-like behavior.

These tournaments at the end of the day in my opinion are for entertainmet for the broad majority of teams that enter. If they win some money, a door prize or maybe just a great day of hunting with a good friend. That is what its all about. I get a little wore out with the chest pounding after some of these hunts. Guys to caught up in there own Awesomeness that they do not have time to give some advice to a struggleing new team that had a rough day of calling. Well, I see it all the time and do not understand it. If you are winning all the money, all the time you need to remember who is making that all possible. I can put on the hunt but its the bottom 80% of the teams that never win a dime that make it all possible. It never hurts to buy the guy who is running a hunt a drink or two but its that father son team that derserves your attention. Because if you act like a drunken asshole after winning some guys have no interest in coming back. If they think they are only contributing to the winning teams ego and bar tab. there is so many things that make it about impossible to have a level playing field for everyone that its a wonder we can get anyone to show up for a hunt. If Brent is reading this, for what ever its worth, I understand how tough it can be at times. Scott H. you had some good info in those posts. Glad I have got to know you over the past couple of years. I think the drawing for areas is a great idea and maybe possible in some regions of the country. We have talked about a test run in a area with about 10 invited teams. We will have to talk, I got the teams and area all figured out. I think it would be a great time. Les, I have met you once before and have sold your calls and videos on my site for a few years. I would say that I have always heard that you were a very gracious winner. Always a smile and a word of encouragement to anyone needing it. You represent coyote tournament hunters well.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2011, 10:39 AM:
 
Looks like he is saying the Heid brothers act obnoxious and offend people? So, back to the issue at hand.

That would definitely not apply to either Les or Jeremy, who generally act like gentlemen, before, during and after the hunt.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2011, 03:07 PM:
 
As to the first question since my last post, it is my understanding from the people with whom I have spoke that Jeremy and Nick did not violate any rules, current or future, and that the banning was purely subjective and speculative on the part of the Board of Directors. The impression I've gotten - and this is MY opinion only - is that the aforementioned cheap seats started booing the loudest and, because Jeremy and Nick were winning consistently, others were threatening to not participate. If that is the case, and again, this is my opinion, I think the phrase Masters of Calling has to be reconsidered as it implies that they are the best, when in fact, the best have been locked out at the door.

The drawing locations to hunt would be a good idea, but like was said, it would only work in certain areas of the country. In Kansas, I can guarantee you it wouldn't fly. Kansas is the number one state in the country for private land ownership and has less public ground than any other state. Ranchers and farmers in Kansas don't just turn over the key to their gates to anyone. Nowadays, you either have to know them, be related to them, or be willing to offer up a bag o' gold for access rights. Such a program would exclude the entire state of Kansas from play. Then again, that would probably be just the ticket for the cheap seat crowd.

As far as the drunks, we haven't had a problem with any of that, even though we have an open bar at both the rules meeting and the check in. I'm too busy to take the time to drink a beer with anyone, so buying the organizer a drink won't grease any wheels in your favor. We did have one guy at a hunt that was quite boastful about how he was going to kill 15 coyotes and win it hands down, only to show up Sunday with 24 coyotes seen and one killed, and a mangy one to boot. Coyotes have a way of equalizing folks. I will say that the times I've been in St. Francis, Jeremy and Nick have been very gracious winners, as is always the case at our KPC.

I'm not a competition hunter, but I've dealt with enough of them and seen some evolve over the past six years to know that the guys who win know the system you must have to be at the top: Good land, with coyotes, and knowing how those coyotes move in that country and how they'll react to your calling, know-how about coyotes - their behavior, their needs, their motivations, the best rifles and shotguns they can afford, and ammo to match. An experienced comp hunter knows his gun, his ammo, and shoots like a sniper. He knows the limitations and capabilities of his weapon and how to work coyotes to well within its effective range. In short, they know coyotes, they know guns, they know how to call, what sounds to use and when, and they know how to shoot. If you're weak in any of those areas, you're at a disadvantage. Try harder.

One team that has done well in many hunts, including the KPC, plan for their hunt for months in advance. They study the land they'll be hunting, they know what's there for coyotes, They locate the area for weeks to census the numbers available, they drive the route from one park point to the next the week before to minimize dead heading between set ups and they plan for more stands than they'll need. If you and your partner look at each other after the rules meeting and one of you asks, "So, where do you wanna hunt first tomorrow?", you already lost.

[ December 28, 2011, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 28, 2011, 03:49 PM:
 
Sure, and I said, several pages back, I know probably a couple hundred hunters that would qualify under Lance's list. The big difference is having the best area to hunt. Put any one of them in that choice ground and they would win handily. There are lots of teams that scout the hell out of their area and are exceptional shots on game. You can bust your ass working marginal ground but that doesn't necessarily make you a second tier, (cheap seats) contestant. There is no substitute for having staked out primo hunting behind locked gates.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 28, 2011, 04:08 PM:
 
just to make sure we are clear here.... The "cheap seats" comment was in reference to anyone who is making comments about how to "Run" a hunt and what should be done to make it better. It was not about the contestants. Expecially from guys who don't run tournaments and don't hunt in them. I was just saying that it is easy to be critical when you have nothing at stake in the outcome.

[ December 28, 2011, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 28, 2011, 05:19 PM:
 
good points Jamie!!.
i've hunted these tourny's for a few years and not once have i felt as though someone cheated. (although i've been accused by a few teams)
coyotehunter.net runs top notch tournaments and i'm sure there is a pile of (behind the scenes) work to keep them running as smoothly as they do.
jelousy towards a winning team just sucks. i always congradulate the top teams wheather i place of not.

[ December 28, 2011, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 28, 2011, 05:46 PM:
 
my reference to the cheap seats was also in refernce to those who complain loudly and place the outcome and their performance on the shouldrs of the winners and the planners. I agree that these hunts, for most guys, are recreational. A new dimension to predator hunting. Many of the teams I follow up on each year don't necessarily shoot for the win. Instead, they compete aginst their performance last year, and years prior. They compete aginst a few other teams with whom they are well acquainted. They come into the event with the (right) attitude that they don't need to win money, but it would be nice, as long as they do well in their own eyes and enjoy themselves. In our hunt, we recognize that there is no real way for us to ensure that the playing field is completely level for all teams. As Leonards points out, locked gates do pose a very serious asset for some teams, and not for others. We do the best to keep it as fair as humanly possible and do what we can to eliminate any cheating by participants. To their credit, I'm not aware of more than a couple isolated instances over the past six years of the KPC.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 28, 2011, 05:58 PM:
 

quote:

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They come into the event with the (right) attitude that they don't need to win money, but it would be nice, as long as they do well in their own eyes and enjoy themselves.

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quote:

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Our hunt is geared toward ensuring a clean, fair competition with the chance to make back what they have in entry fees not once, but thirty different times.

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quote:

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how does your statement fit in with what Shaw just posted? Something is wrong here.

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quote:

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Gugelmeyer/Peterson have agreed that they will not participate in the 2012 Midwest Coyote Calling Event and any future events

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quote:

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The board of directors decided the team of Gugelmeyer/Peterson is no longer welcome to participate in the contest because their consistent success (winning 4 out of 5 years) has led to a decrease in participation. They have not broken any contest rules.

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That right there is complete bullshit. In my mind you change the rules about winning the following year. You dont tell a team they are not welcome for raising the bar and pushing everyone else around them to do better. Im with Geordie, eventually they will have to give bonus points to all of us other retards in the contest to even it up and make it more PC??
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 29, 2011, 07:54 AM:
 
Sorry for leaving everybody in the dark for so long on this. I felt it was best not to post in a public forum till "the board" had sent out another email to clarify their "1st email".

As far as I know the new baiting rule was not designed around Nick and I. brent never mentioned it in our conversation.

Jeremy Gugelmeyer
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 29, 2011, 08:49 AM:
 
Thanks for posting Jeremy, good to know you're still out there.

I have zero response to my emails to Brent inquiring about who comprises the "board". Speaks volumes at this point.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 29, 2011, 08:55 AM:
 
Heck, I reckon the goalies gettin' scored on by Gretzky and the point guards gettin' schooled by Jordan would've liked their nemesis' azzes benched, too.

Sounds like a real crappy deal. And very sad to see that the almighty dollar is the driving factor behind it...
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on December 29, 2011, 09:01 AM:
 
Jeremy,
Thanks for the response. It sucks you and Nick had that happen. In my mind its not right at all, but ive voiced my opinion. Hope you guys stay in the contest arena and keep at it with other contests. More than impressed with your two Oklahoma wins last year (may be more?). You guys are on top of your game and I know guys like me push ourselves constantly trying to get to that level....or as close as we can to it.

I say take it as a compliment and start entering into the worlds and other contests. Own those contests as well lol.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2011, 09:53 AM:
 
A personal note to
JeremyKS :

I have made a few comments, and I stick by what I said, but in no way did I intend to diminish your accomplishments. I did not mean anybody can get up off the couch and do what you have done, because of where you hunt. It is obvious that you are good and a talented hunter and I meant no disrespect.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 29, 2011, 09:59 AM:
 
I have discussed this at great length with numerous individuals and the nature of the beast with coyote hunts is that the top 10% or 15% of teams will consistantly be in the top ten, and the rest, won't. Most teams, regardless of ground or conditions aren't capable of beating the guys that are simply better. More experience, better callers, better shots, etc..
Therefore it is my opinion that someone needs to develop and implement a handicap system of some sort. Either by shortening the time period the better teams can hunt, or docking them a few coyotes, or something. Otherwise the dominant teams will continue to dominate and the hunts will spiral downhill. Golf is handicapped as well as numerous other sports. I team rope alot and team roping has developed several nationwide handicap systems for the same reasons calling contests should. Our local hunt in Campbell county has suffered the same fate. It has went from a hundred team hunt to a 30 team hunt due to the dominance of a couple teams with the best ground locked up. Obviously they can shoot also.
My overall view of things is that this will soon have to happen or there will continue to be bullshit like what happened in Kansas happening. I would like to see Ruebs hunt crash and burn due to what they did, but it won't, because some guys now think they have a better chance. But to me, you can't truely be the midwest champ unless everybody is allowed to enter (barring cheaters).
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 29, 2011, 10:09 AM:
 
Tundra as far as I know the board is comprised of brent rueb, chad rockwell, eric harper and justin smith.

Patterson
We would love to get in the world but unfortunately the dates are always during Kansas' deer season. I guide a few deer hunters every year so Im not sure it will ever work out for us to go unless something changes. I have been thinking about not guiding any hunters one year just to go but its pretty hard to take that decrease in income.

Leonard,
There is no secret to what we do. We have some of the best land to hunt on in the area and we manage to kill a bunch of coyotes. But I will say we are not the only ones that have the same quality of land. Year after year there are teams in the contest that that see more coyotes than we do but they just don't kill as many as we do. (for those that haven't entered in the mcce contest, when you check in you have to say how many coyotes you seen and how many you killed)

3toes,
I haven't really thought about comparing a numbered team roping to a coyote contest but you might be right?
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 29, 2011, 11:39 AM:
 
Thanks for the responses Jeremy.

Lance.....sorry man, I had just wandered in from coon hunting and at that late hour I apparantly wasn't able to follow what you were saying, I was truly confused about which event you were involved with, I've always felt like I could take your word at face value without question but in my confused state I was having a hard time figuring out why you were involved in Ruebs decision. LOL I'll try to pay attention.

I agree with Cal, there has got to be a better way to even the field than asking a team to never participate again.....that's pure unadulterated bullshit and defeats the very premise of a competition. If I'm gonna compete I wanna compete against people like Jeremy or Cal or Q or Lance or someone that knows how to kill coyotes and do it well.

One of the best ways to eliminate this crap is to eliminate anyone who thinks this ruling is a good idea.

There are ways to please the contestants but if the coordinator can't see past his wallet and make a few sacrifices for the good of the business at hand.......he's not much of a business man.

You got screwed Jeremy.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on December 29, 2011, 11:43 AM:
 
You want to be the best, you got to beat the best.

Banning a team cause they win too much is some crybaby bullshit.

Kelly
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2011, 12:49 PM:
 
Well, if it has finally rolled out, these guys aren't welcome because they always win, then I will finally say what I have NOT said previously. Rueb is wrong.

Listen, I have dealt with the same bullshit, and I am still dealing with it. Our whole state organization was torpedoed by people that were jealous and couldn't beat those who consistently won. Culprit; Orange County Predator Hunters, period. Now, they organize a lame "memorial hunt" and think nobody remembers the shit they did.

The motivation was exactly the same as what is going on with the Midwest. We had teams, people I know very well, known since high school, people that weren't cheating but some small people, (you know who you are) couldn't do it and had to believe that it wasn't possible, without cheating involved.

So, I am bringing up old history because it's same old, same old. Some people are winners and some people are not. I don't care if it's a bass tournament, or horseshoes. It's human nature for losers to whine.

Maybe Cal has a good idea, I don't know? We tried tinkering with check in times and locations, but never spotted the field a few animals, nobody ever thought of that?

Jeremy, interesting point you bring up. I have never understood the reasoning behind the survey question concerning how many coyotes seen and how many shot. I just don't get it? You can't always handle multiples in brushy country and some will get away, and that is no reflection on skill. In the case of spooked coyotes, seeing them run the other way is no way to judge hunting skill in dealing with the one's that haven't been called.

I once called nine coyotes out in the open single file around a mud flat coming out of heavy cover. I managed to kill six. Now, do I get credit for blind luck in setting up at exactly the right place at exactly the right time, or do I get docked a few points because 3 got away?

I can tell you that I have seen more than 50 animals in a weekend a number of times but because of all kinds of circumstances, you just can't get them all, especially if you are hunting day and night. Therefore, I fail to see how it is relevant to state how many animals you saw and use it as some type of yardstick? What's it supposed to mean? Better percentage? Better area? How can you beat; seen one, killed one? Personally, I always tried to average 50%, and in really good territory, that is awfully hard to do. Like, you know, 50% of 50 is 25.

How often do you see that? Well, for me that's the highlight of my entire career and I only did it twice, and it was only 22. Well, it's hard to comprehend numbers like that, and at one time, I didn't believe it was possible. At one time, I didn't believe ten animals was possible, never mind that old Sam Dudley used to kill 20 all by himself.

Well, anyway, I'm not bragging, there are people out here that have whipped my ass regularly, but I am, and always have been competitive. The one time I hunted the Midwest, we killed two. The hunting was poor because it wasn't a very good area, and had been hunted, not because we didn't know what we were doing.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 29, 2011, 05:36 PM:
 
I never agreed with the question of how many coyotes were seen either. I thought they were just asking me to lie. If I have a good area, that I want to keep to myself and not have 50 teams trying to figure out where I am hunting, I damn sure ain't putting down how many coyotes I saw. You can bet your ass if I put down that I saw 30 coyotes in a couple days, someone is going to be trying to figure out where and get access. Screw that. Its none of thier damn business how many coyotes I saw.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 29, 2011, 06:31 PM:
 
Jeremy,

As it turns out, I don't think you and Nick got hurt in this deal. Brent is another matter. There isn't a way to deal with this the way it's been handled without looking bad.

I eluded to the fact in an earlier post that the KPC was making a change this year to prevent cheating. One concern we have always had is 2 or more teams pooling coyotes prior to check in. The traditional kill block most hunts use lends itself far too easily to that possibility. Anyone can buy zip ties.

So, this year, we decided to abandon the kill blocks and go to a new tagging system. It cost us a wad of cash to buy these tags, but we got a buttload of them and don't see how anyone can duplicate them to cheat. Each is individually numbered, and each team will be responsible for accounting for the ones issued to them. Rather than tagging the coyote around the upper jaw, we will be requiring our competitors to tag coyotes using the tags in sequence, at the hock, through the space between the Achilles tendon and bone.



I'm not aware of any other competition using these. We've subjected these tags to extreme cold, pulling, bending, and they'll stand up to conditions much better than zip ties.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2011, 07:07 PM:
 
Not hard to figure that one out or the blocks.. All the guys have to do is keep track of the time of kills and don't put any tags/blocks on till they meet up to pool the coyotes..
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 29, 2011, 07:36 PM:
 
Yep, if you're intent on cheating. But, since you strike me as being a cheap seater sort, why don't you enlighten us with a better idea?
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 29, 2011, 09:01 PM:
 
The reason that contests have used the blocks inside the jaws is because after rigor sets into a coyote you can't force his jaws open.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on December 29, 2011, 09:07 PM:
 
IMO it looks like the peak of predator hunting may have finally come.

Contests, well the economy can be as much to blame as anything. Hard to justify spending X amount of dollars and no return when everything is out of control.

Lance sounds like the KPC has a good handle on all aspects of running and continuing a good hunt, along with some great communication between those running the event.

Another topic for debate is just what is the right amount for a promoter to keep?

Some people are just not able to be in charge! It seems those that run it as a source of personal income have the most trouble. It seems the ones run by a local group etc need very little to produce the event. I don't think the guy or group running the event is anymore entitled than the contestants paying to enter the event. One without the other is useless?
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 29, 2011, 09:44 PM:
 
We have been painting r blocks and numbering them for years....the zip ties are black with a metal clip in them that are made for outdoor extreme temps. ...........I will say we have a great group of guys at our hunts and it is always a lot of fun. Very few problems over the years. Lots of hunts for every competitors skill level to choose from these days.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 29, 2011, 10:01 PM:
 
Cal, I promise I will not ask how many you 2 see at the Classic!! I am interested in the concept of some sort of a handicap.......I would assume it would be based on the number of coyotes on average per day in tournaments, and placement at tournaments from previous year, I would think more value given to winning one hunt over another......winning the local bar tournament would not be the same as winning one of the bigger 2 day hunts.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2011, 11:35 PM:
 

quote:

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The reason that contests have used the blocks inside the jaws is because after rigor sets into a coyote you can't force his jaws open.

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You know entirely too much about how to cheat and lie about how many coyotes you've shot......just sayin

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I don't have to cheat or lie. I'm just as good as anyone else when it comes to killing /calling......... Sometimes you don't know what your saying..

The last contest I was in i was talking with most of the guys and they only called in and seen what they brought in which was two coyotes on avr. with one team seeing and killing 3 (winning team), another team had 8 coyotes in on one stand maybe more or less and shot two of them and saw nothing the rest of the day..
I called in 6 coyotes before noon and had all of them in front of the gun (would of, could of, should of been dead)and also spotted two seperate coyotes just out and about...
So you see I don't have or need to cheat i do ok by myself just need to get things to click a little better.. There were also 2-3 contests that went on prior to the one I did so my area had some calling pressure again but like I said I did ok for not being a local...
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 30, 2011, 08:20 AM:
 
Tim, In the matter of 30 minutes or so, you can't force a coyotes jaws open. But if they set into rigor with something in thier mouth, thats the way they will stay.

I have judged several hunts now and temped hundreds of coyotes. It is more accurate than you think. If one team has thier coyotes in a topper, they may be a few degrees warmer, but not much and they will still need to correspond to the order in which they were killed. It's not going to stop pooling of coyotes, but there isn't any chance of sneeking in a day previous shot coyote. Thats what its for.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2011, 08:31 AM:
 

quote:

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Edit to add. And the temp. thingy..
You can take a coyote and put it in the back of a pick-up with a topper and it will take longer for the temp to drop vrs. a coyote laying in the back of an open bed...

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This is correct, and this is why we ask our contestants in the rules meeting to make sure that if they garage their truck at night, the y unload the coyotes and leave them outside. If you don't, your temps will send up a red flag and may end up disqualifying your animals because of a discrepancy between them and other coyotes taken at the same time by other teams. We don't pay out our winnings for at least two weeks post-hunt. During that time, the furbuyer is skinning and examining each and every coyote taken for evidence that they were taken by means other than hunting. At the same time, we are comparing the times and temps to the database created by all the coyotes taken since all coyotes taken at the same time during the event should produce similar temperatures, as long as the hunters do as we ask and ensure that their coyotes are exposed to the same conditions as everyone else's (i.e., no toppers, no garaging, etc.). Winning teams are selected randomly to participate in the post-hunt interviews and testing where we ask for some of the most obscure things imaginable, and your partners answers better match yours to the letter. All details of the kill and setup are fair game and we advise contestants to remember every detail or take notes- there will be a quiz.

The reason we chose the tags we chose, and the placement at the hock is because even a rigored coyote can have the block removed and replaced without much creativity. Like I said, white zip ties can be bought anywhere. The tags we bought are specific to us and not available except through this one company, cannot be reused under any circumstances, and once drawn down, you cannot get them off the lower leg without breaking them first, even if the tendon gets cut accidentally. Once that coyote is tagged, it's tagged for good and no going back. Every coyote will have its own multi-digit serial number from that point on which is totally accountable back to the team that tagged it. If the tag shows physical evidence of tampering, such as being pulled to attempt to remove, it will result in that coyote being dq'd.

[ December 30, 2011, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 09:26 AM:
 
I don't see temperature as fool proof? Out here, we can have people hunting down along the border, and others up in the mountains, 8,000 feet elevation or better. I have seen lots of animals frozen to the bed of a pickup, and on the other hand, due to the placement of the exhaust system, the first coyote on the bottom is the warmest one?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 30, 2011, 09:38 AM:
 
The simplest answer to this whole problem is a third person to go along with each team. I know of several people who would give their left nut to go along with some of these so called "expert coyote callers". I once was a judge in California for an all night coon hunt. I had to keep track of number of coons. There was lots of other things I had to write down. This was a long time ago and I can't remember all I had to do. My point is with a judge , everyone would be on the same playing field and there wouldn't be all this bullshit complaining about different teams not playing by the rules. If any teams had the thought of cheating , they probably would weed theirself out of these tournaments if they knew there was going to be a judge with each team. I have been in a few tournaments over my lifetime and I have witnessed some minimal cheating. I remember one tournament these guys won and after the waiting period before payout, it was decided to bar them from another contest. They had used snowmobiles. When they got up to be recognized for first place, there was no expression of happyness on their faces at all. They sat at my tabel during the feed afterwards and they were sober faced as Hell. Pretty obvious that they had cheated. This is just my own feelings on this issue , and I believe it has some merit to think about. You would have about a year to get your judges all lined up, so I don't think that would be a problem at all.
The Varmint Hunter Magazine is headquarterd in my hometown of Pierre S.D. They started a video contest which is just getting off the ground. Actually it is on the third year I believe. The whole purpose is getting together with friends and having fun hunt. These are 3 man teams. After the contest they all get together and view the videos and drink a few beer, and have a few laughs. I feel three people on a stand would be no problem.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 10:34 AM:
 
Thanks for your suggestion. I wonder if some teams would balk at disclosing where they are hunting by including a ride along? I'd volunteer as a judge on Jeremy's team, just for curiosity.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2011, 11:12 AM:
 
All good suggestions. So, I'm going to take all of this advice and plan the perfect hunt for next year. Of course, we will hold it in Kansas because we're centrally located and it's only fair that the East Coast guys don't have to drive clear across the country. Same thing for the western guys. Also, Kansas is relatively flat compared to really good coyote country, so altitudinal differences, as far as temps go, aren't a problem here. One problem here will be securing and renting enough prime hunting ground since nobody in Kansas is gonna let you hunt for free. You can thank deer hunting for that.

Now, each team will consist of two hunters and a judge. Land will be secured and your team will hunt a preselected area on Saturday. On Sunday, you'll hunt a different piece of ground that had been hunted the day before by another team. You'll also have a different judge along just in case you, your teammate, and he got a little too chummy on the first day. Can't have bribery going on.

Each team will be provided a custom-built rack into which all your dead coyotes - should you kill any - can be placed to ensure that they have cool air circulating around them at all times to ensure uniformity in temperatures across all teams. I need 100 of these donated, so put the word out.

Each team will be provided with the same e-caller and the same set of sounds and will be required to use only those calls provided to them. Same with guns (rifles),scopes, and ammunition. A full set of camo will be provided to each participant, including shirts, pants, jackets, masks, and boots. I will gladly entertain offers from manufacturers as to who wants to give me a quote on 200 of each.

Each team will be subjected to a lie detector examination at check in. We cannot force the supposed winners to this while leaving the losers to do whatever they want. That's profiling. And, that's wrong.

Now, between the lease fees, cooling racks, the callers, the rifles, scopes, ammunition, cammies, judges pay, building rent, etc., I'm guessing the entry fees will be somewhere north of $4500 per team - cheap at twice the price. And, subject to change, should someone prove to me that the type of truck you're driving affects the temperatures of the coyotes and your ability to get in and out of the areas to which you're assigned. Does anyone have a buddy who runs a car dealership who might bid out 100 4X4 pickups for us to use? New entry fee price? $34,500, plus change.

On one hand, we complain about all the stupid laws we have to suffer in this country when, in the end, we just want the government - the rules makers - to STFU, sit down and just let us live our lives. In a perfect world, everyone would do the right thing. Everything would be equal and when it wasn't, we'd just suck it up, do the best we can with what we have, and not expect - let alone demand - that the government make new rules to level the proverbial playing field. We'd know and live according to the one true fact that life isn't fair, and it sucks most days. Deal with it.

And so goes it in hunting. There is no way to establish true parity across the board for all variables. The more we complain about this injustice and that unfair method being used by someone else, the more rules that get passed. Rules ultimately lead to devising ways to catch and deal with those who break the rules meaning that our one time fun hunt has now started costing more money due to increasing input costs. When all is said and done, the vocal minority has only managed to jack up the price of running the hunt beyond what is reasonable, well out of reach of the guys who do this for fun and bragging rights, and we end up with a hunt that is so bogged down in ridiculous rules that we've managed to piss the fun right out of what we came here for in the first place.

Seems to me that whether we're talking about the federal government or running a hunt, in time, we just can't seem to get out of our own way.

[ December 30, 2011, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 30, 2011, 11:31 AM:
 
You would have a lot of teams that would not want to have a tag along. I just do not see how practical it would be and could you imagine if that judge made a mistake and cost a team a coyote. Maybe the judge couldn't physically keep up with the team. Seriously, just another can of worms. I have run a bunch of tournaments and just do not have many problems with cheating. Some easy stuff like blocks out of order, blocks filled out incorrectly, late at a checkin......but out right cheating. Just do not see it at our hunts. With the checkins, questionaires and the potential of a poly if we are needing one. Well it keeps the bad apples from entering in the first place. If a team in 30th place shot a coyote outside of the rules......well that can happen but the guys in the money just get a lot of scrutiny. I am not writting checks unless I am 100% satisfied. There is no one tool that does it all when it comes to checking in a team. But if you use all the tools that you have available then you can have a degree of certainty that allows for these hunts to continue year after year. We provide a ton of prizes at our hunts. The Williston, ND hunt has raised over $10,000 for the Luke Oyloe Memorial fund and we gave out $20,000 in cash and prizes this year. 9 Olympic Arms AR's this year, gas cards and a bunch of hoodies, hats and shirts. $90 entry fee and 28 guys went home with an average of about $700 per person in prizes. I made about $200, 2 days on the road for a 1 day hunt. Luke was a great kid who used to hunt my tournaments and participate on my talk forums. Got killed in a car crash when he was just 16 years old. a very good reason to have a coyote tournament. Everyone had a good time, we shot some coyotes and raised some money for a worthy cause. His dad with a class mate of Lukes, with 4 coyotes won the tournament this year. There are hunts like this all over the country, that raise money for special events or clubs. Maybe just a local bar tournament that the owner is putting on to help pay bills during a slow part of the season. Things have come along ways in the past 10 years with tournaments. There are just more of them and guys have more choices. The first tournament I was in was at a bar, $40 entry and a bowl of chilli at the end of the night. we got 4th place and split the prize money with 2 other teams. I think we got $32 for our effort. the check in was a complete joke. We followed the winning team into town. 2 guys in the truck for 90 miles, we lost them when we got a couple of blocks from the bar. When they showed up at the check in there were now 3 guys in the truck. I didn't hunt that tournament again. The reason they cheated was cause they thought they could get away with it. Now a days at most events guys can be fairly certain that if they are in the money they will get caught if they cheated. The toughest part is finding a good set of rules and a promoter/event organizer that will make the tough decisions to inforce them. It is tougher than it looks.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 11:55 AM:
 
We put an end to all the bullshit by doing away with cash. I think I "won" about $8 for a seventh place finish, in 1970. Since then, we always awarded trophies, not money. And the entry fee was first a paid membership plus 10 or 15 bucks. You would be surprised how much effort a guy will put out for a friggin' belt buckle!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 30, 2011, 12:23 PM:
 
Hell... I've never even been in a contest, I have enough bullshit in my life already, without artificially injecting bullshit into my coyote hunting. You guys can have that...

But, I've cheated in a contest!

Sold a pair of freshly killed coyotes to a couple guys that were in a contest. Later heard that three coyotes won. No idea where the guys who bought my coyotes placed, but they had to have finished at least second place .

- DAA
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 30, 2011, 12:59 PM:
 
Now that would be something. See how many teams you get these days for a belt buckle.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 01:32 PM:
 
030_PCOC_PRESS_JANUARY_2012.pdf
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 01:50 PM:
 
I can't make it work, it's a pdf file, but a Huntmaster member, Gary N, IBEW, won it with 7 coyotes and 3 bobcat. He got his name engraved on the perpetual trophy.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 30, 2011, 03:06 PM:
 
This is no easy task in putting on a contest. Jamie puts on one just about as good as I have seen. We could go on for ever discussing all these issues and you would never run out of suggestions and all of a sudden, you have more red tape than it is worth putting in the effort. I guess I ran out of suggestions and maybe things will kinda cure on their own. My hat go off to anybody that puts on a tournament. I have witnessed several contest for benefits and I would hope that a person or persons would have a little respect and act accordingly to the people envolved with hardship.
What it sounds like to me is Jeremy and his partner took it in the shorts and I would say screw Brent in future tournaments. Is it that hard to go out and just have a great day hunting?
Hopefully things will come out in the wash and get clean again.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 30, 2011, 07:14 PM:
 
Jeremy,

Glad you showed up.

If the only reason you have been banned is because you continue to win, then it's really a bullsh*t deal and I would expect the contest to spiral into oblivion. If there is another reason, then I'd like to hear what it is. I'm going to reserve final judgement until I have heard both sides of the story but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

If your win record is the only reason you have been banned, then history will show that it was a big mistake to cater to a handful of thumbsuckers and ban you.

There is nothing I enjoyed more than to compete against you guys, Heids, Schmidts, Johnsons, and other teams that have won major contests in numerous states. That sets the bar high. If a contest weeds out the best hunters it has no attraction to me anymore.

The simple fact that there was 130 - 150 teams in the MCCE even after you guys won 3 times proves that most hunters want to compete against the better teams. How many times did Schmidts win before you guys and nobody got too bent out of shape about that?

It's also very hypocritical to have awarded you guys the "sportsman of the year" award after you had won a couple times, then shove it up your ass this year by banning you. This just stinks beyond imagination.

Cdog,

As Cal mentioned and he's exactly right, the mouth blocks are important from the standpoint of rigormortis in the jaw. If you open that jaw after rigor sets in, it stays loose and creates suspicion. Having participated in many contests in many states, I think you should find a way to incorporate a mouth block and zip strip that cannot be duplicated rather than the leg tag. You are losing a valuable evaluation method.

I'll tell you something that happened to us in Rawlins. It was colder than hell one year and our first stand of the morning we called in this puny coyote who came in and stood broadside just above a running mountain stream. I can't remember whether I shot it or my partner but we hit a shoulder on the way in and blew a big hole out the other side. This little runt slid down the snowbank and into the ice cold creek. The chest filled with ice water and it took a while to get it pulled out. We knew that coyote was going to raise suspicion because of the outside temp, the first stand of the morning, and the ice water. When we got in line we told the judges immediately what happened before they probed this coyote. We also told them that we could show anyone exactly where and how this happened due to the snowcover. Didn't seem to matter, the "presumption of guilt" boys were ready to hang us. Pissed me off to no end. Anyone could see the coyote was soaked which would be stupid for anyone to do otherwise. I'm just saying things like this can happen. There is nothing worse than being falsely accused.

Not sure I like the judge idea. I think it would be good enough just to confirm that a team is hunting in a particular area. I don't want anyone but my partner tagging along with me. With my luck I would get some 300 lb. triple by pass judge in a wheelchair. LOL!

Leonard,

You are right that the coyotes seen vs. coyote killed data is subjective. Anymore I think it's pretty much worthless for the very reason Cal mentions. People are not honest about it due to concerns about good areas or due to concerns about their inability to kill a high percentage of the coyotes they saw. Originally the "coyotes seen" data started out as information to gauge the coyote population from year to year. Then a handful of guys like myself started looking at it from the standpoint of shooting percentages. When it was more accurate information, it would show huge disparities between shooting percentages. Like I mentioned before, I remember a team that saw 10 and killed 8 of them while another team saw 52 and killed 13. That is very revealing despite all the possible variables. Give me an area with 52 coyotes and see what happens.

I've hunted long enough to know that shooting 80% of the coyotes you see (that you have access to) takes a high level of skill, period. Few teams ever reach that level. I know, I know, there's lots of variables but the best teams will consistently kill over 50% of the coyotes they see. I've watched this long enough and have competed long enough to know the relevance of the information providing it's accurate.

Again, anymore I think too many people are lying about how many coyotes they see so it's really irrelevant at this point.

~SH~

[ December 30, 2011, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 30, 2011, 07:23 PM:
 
The longest running coyote calling contest that I know of in SD is the American Legion hunt in Martin SD. They gave out plaques instead of cash and it still had it's cheaters. Snared coyotes, snowmobiled coyotes, etc. Since it was just for plaques, nobody got too bent out of shape.

~SH~
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 30, 2011, 07:24 PM:
 
Sott , you did get a steak out of the deal though.
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 30, 2011, 07:30 PM:
 
Scott , sorry about spelling your name wrong. If you remember, Jim Carr from Pierre always done well in that tournament. The Carr's had lots of coyote land to hunt with several relatives with big ranches.
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 30, 2011, 07:41 PM:
 
You know I have been thinking about what some of you have said about a judge tagging along. You wouldn't want one tagging along in the field. If you think about it, they wouldn't have to actually be out there by you when you are calling. Hell, he could sit in the vehicle and wait for you when you come back. He is just there to make sure you stay together, and you conform to whatever rules the tournament has. What could you possibly do to cheat in that short amount of time. Did I open up a can of worms here? I would like to hear how you could cheat in that amount of time outside the vehicle.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2011, 08:06 PM:
 
No matter how you slice it, an observer is in the way. Dead weight. Unless it's Quinton, of course!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2011, 08:27 PM:
 

quote:

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The longest running coyote calling contest that I know of in SD is the American Legion hunt in Martin SD. They gave out plaques instead of cash and it still had it's cheaters. Snared coyotes, snowmobiled coyotes, etc. Since it was just for plaques, nobody got too bent out of shape.

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You mean this one.



I do the V.H.contest most every year..
One year I watched a team chase down a coyote with the truck and in the main area that I call in have watched numerous teams hunt them from ATV's which is legal for the contest but not legal in the area they are useing them in..
Even had a team sneak in to a area I was calling from the back side, at the time I did'nt see them and made a stand roughly 1/8 of a mile just north of them.. Had a coyote comeing in only to be intercepted by the other team.. The coyote ended up being big dog for the contest.. Oh well thats just the way it is..
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 30, 2011, 09:41 PM:
 
I was on stand with a couple of guys at a tournament some years back. Not in the hunt, I was running it. I had a couple guys make a long drive to do seminars. The one guy was with a Desert Shadow and the other was ADC guy from Montana. Just going to get them on a North Dakota coyote. I had a pair coming in and a truck stopped up on the road and started blasting away at them. We don't allow shooting from the truck at our events. I seen the truck but not the licsence plate. We started adding vehicle descriptions and plate numbers to our rules sheet. I found out several years later who it was that was doing all the shooting. Same team that came in and won the tournament we were at that had the 3rd guy magically appear in the truck.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on December 31, 2011, 01:33 AM:
 
Jeremy if what has been stated on the decison of your fate holds any truth man i feel for you. I want to say thank you for showing up and posting something. You are Welcome at any and all coyotehunter.net events

Banning someone for winning to much is a poor decision on anyones part however a promoter looking for the payout on a SINGLE hunt i can see the reason because it will in time bring down the number of teams "playing for second" We do not do this or condone it in any way shape or form. When i was still hunting in a lot of tournaments i wanted to beat the Johnnsons (great winners), the Schmids (some of the nicests guys i have ever met) The Barnes Bros from Utah (who actually gave a gift to the winning team when the handed off the trophy), the Heids. I wanted to compete against the best.

For those that get sick of the same team winning "Losers go home and tell their mom why they lost....Winners go home and screw the prom queen"

As far as the judges coming with each team the logistics just don't match up. First of all you have to find 40-60 judges that you trust, can keep up with the go getters and someone that the team doesn't have to worry about the next 11 months telling everyone where you hunted and how you hunted. We have talked about it for a few years but it just doesn't add up.

The being honest on seen coyotes i thing people need to think more about. I know it is BS in SOME hunts the first year i hunted nationals and hunted mostly public land we seen the most coyotes out of everyone for being honest However over a period of time that is good knowledge for the promoter, the local game and fish, and bioligists to prove why we do what we do so keep that in mind

Lance i like to see someone progressing and looking for better ways to do this but after checking in thousands of coyotes i think you are throwing away a great tool just my opinion.

Tim you have hunted in a handful of events never been part of running one so you are now considered the "cheap seats" easy to critise unless you are on the jury or the judge in MY opinon
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 31, 2011, 02:20 AM:
 

quote:

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Tim you have hunted in a handful of events never been part of running one so you are now considered the "cheap seats" easy to critise unless you are on the jury or the judge in MY opinon

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Gee thanks!! I was'nt critiseing anyone on how they run there contests. Just saying how I saw it go down from some of the contests I've been in.. But hey I know how it is you just had to take a cheap shot.. I think that puts you in the "cheap seats" as well.....
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on December 31, 2011, 02:30 AM:
 
O.K i'm not hijacking this thread to argue with you. You as a person have very little knowledge on this subject so lets just leave it at that and just drop it.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 31, 2011, 02:35 AM:
 
You already hi-jacked it when you singled me out and claimed I was in the " cheap seats" group when I'm not.. Actually I could care less...

P.S. I don't make any personnel attacks on you at Coyote hunter so why you pulling this shit here????

[ December 31, 2011, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on December 31, 2011, 02:46 AM:
 
Because i have the respect for a great discussion on this board and have the utmost respect for the people involved in this discussion

I BOW OUT!! YOU WIN!!
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on December 31, 2011, 05:51 AM:
 
Yes TA, that is the longest running coyote calling contest I am aware of in SD and perhaps most surrounding states. I know Leonard has been involved in competition hunts for a long time also.

J Hun,

Yup, we got an excellent steak out of the deal. The teams paid for it themselves and it was priced very reasonably.

I like the fact that Martin never gave out prize money because nobody got too bent out of shape over anything. ER did an excellent job of running the contest and it became an event where a lot of good friends could get together once a year and visit. I still attend the supper whenever I can. Lots of long time coyote callers still attend the event and call with their kids. It is also one of the only three day contests I am aware of. I remember we were dragging pretty bad after three days of hunting off horseback.

I was told that Jim Carr was a tough competitor in the early years of the contest.

~SH~
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 31, 2011, 06:33 AM:
 
Wily E. same thing happened to me. my very frist tournament about 4 years ago. first coyote was shot at first light. i think i hit him 3 times with a 22-250 with one shot hitting high in the back ripping a big hole. rules were that all coyotes had to be exposed to the weather. we were driving a suburban so we lashed it on top. we shot 2 others that day but the first one took the brunt of the cold/windchills all day. (i think it was in the - degree's that day) plus we were about 100 miles from the check in. got to check in and had that one DQed for cold temps. cost us placing. would have won 340.00. we each took a written questionaire in seperate rooms and our recounts of the day were the same so not really sure why we got him DQed. i'm sure it had more to do with being the "new kids on the block" that no one had heard of. i was a bit pissed as we followed all rules and ended up having this happen. i took my brother (partner) to cool me down. after cooling down i realized that the judges had a tough call to make and i put myself in thier shoes and realized i as a judge would have probably done the same thing. Jerry, i think you remember this one??. Kenmare.
as for coyotehunter.net tourny's, i think the teams that have been entering for years are some damn good guys. i've met alot of them and have made some GREAT long time friends. some have helped me tremendously in helping me learn about this coyote thing. i actually feel blessed that i found these hunt.
as for some input on the rules.. the one about not shooting a coyote from the road between stands. my brother and i could have shot (at) plenty from the road last year during tourny's but did'nt. i know its a calling contest but have learned that there are plenty of teams that do it. that rule is kinda unenforseable that i can see. as for reporting the #'s seen that day. i never thought of lieing about how many we seen??. we commonly seen 20-30 a day although sometimes 1/2 were seen from the road. i like to play by the rules but if i do any more hunts i WILL not report how many we seen that day. some of my best areas its common to see 30-50 aday and i think posting those #'s has led to an increase from other tournament hunters in these areas.

[ December 31, 2011, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on December 31, 2011, 11:23 AM:
 
Bucks, I remember that and think about it everytime you post a topic on a couple forums. I hated to do that, but to preserve the inteqrity of the contest, I felt it was the right thing to do. You have proven yourself to be a pretty proficient coyote hunter and trapper. You actually handled yourself pretty damn good. I speak highly of you.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on December 31, 2011, 11:43 AM:
 
The not shooting from the truck is tough to poolice unless you go throug the questionaire and potentially the poly test. I have always said that if team number #35 gets one out the window there is not much I can do about it. We do not have time to question everyone but if your in the money your are going to get grilled. I just worry about about guys driving 2 tracks all day up and down drainages, sloughs and shelterbelts. Never leaving the truck. You handled that well Bucks,that was Kenmare right? We helped start that tournament years ago. Good group of guys up there.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 31, 2011, 12:57 PM:
 
Jerry. thanks
i did not know you were a judge there??. i thought you were just doing the seminar
you owe me 340.00. just send it to Jamie. that will cover the entry to the Classics. lol
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2011, 01:19 PM:
 
I don't know, but seems like bearhunter had a very good and logical explanation for what happened, and sticking to a single rule on body temperature is kinda dumb, in my opinion.

Now, as far as shooting from the truck, this is a complicated issue, for me because we make stands from the truck all the time, while off the road or on a two track and I can't see where that should be a problem.

Now, shooting from a graded road, out the window is a different animal altogether. Even if I happen to see one under those circumstances, I always bail out, but I'm not too proud to take a gift animal. So, somebody will say it's not "CALLING" but I disagree because these contests are about "HUNTING" and what about the situation that JD described where they were messing with a wise coyote and stumble onto (kick out) a coyote walking back to the truck? Wasn't called, or was it? I just think some of this judging is slicing it too thin? Of course, getting screwed by deliberate cheaters tends to make a cautious fellow.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 31, 2011, 01:27 PM:
 
LB. to be fair, there is a rule in place where a team can put up 75.00 and than have a few judges from members of other teams (picked randomly) i think and tell your story to them about any coyote that is in question. than they can bring the DQ'ed coyote back into play if they agree with your story. i'm not sure why we did not do this,perhaps we did not know about this at the time as this was our first ever tourny. if thease peer judges agree with you and let the coyote back in the 75.00 is refunded to you. if the original ruling stays you lose the 75.00

[ December 31, 2011, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2011, 01:50 PM:
 
Makes sense, as long as it is not : "don't have a dog in this fight" situation. I'd like to think people are honest and decent.

I have mentioned this before but it is germane to the discussion. It should not matter if you stand to gain or lose.

Anyway, there has already been discussion elsewhere about that World event 3 or 4 years ago, and talking to Cal Taylor.

We didn't come close to placing, but we did have a 12 pound coyote in the little dog contest. I watched Cal's kill being weighed and the guy just threw his small animal off to the side, disqualified! It was about a 9 pounder, something like that? Blew the shit out of it. But, you could still see that it was a very small coyote, a pup.

Cal didn't say a damned thing about it. WE had the smallest coyote to that point, but I hunted down the guy running the hunt and told him I just saw a bad call and he needed to do something about it.

He responded right away, walked up asked for the animal, looked at it briefly and told the guy to accept, it meaning we were out $700, but dammit, fair is fair. Cal forgot to buy me a beer, but that's okay. lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 31, 2011, 03:11 PM:
 
oh yeah, forgot that one of the judges, Ron J bought us in the calcutta and if we would have placed it would have netted him 900ish $$. bet that WAS a tough call for him to make LOL
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 31, 2011, 04:54 PM:
 
LB, I won't ever forget what you did that day. A true sportsman. My only question was "how do you hit a tiny little bastard like that and not blow the crap out of it!" I hit that little fart on the run no less. I had to do a double double triple take to make sure it wasnt a damn swift fox.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2011, 05:30 PM:
 
It's way okay, Cal. And, I'm embarrassed to be tooting my own horn, but it is within the context of the discussion. I just tried to do the right thing, since nobody else was going to. So, you owe me nothing for doing what's right. It's just that, that little sucker was so obviously smaller than anything else, and to just toss it because it had a hole in it was beyond stupid.

Good hunting, Amigos, and have a Happy and prosperous New Year! El Bee
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 01, 2012, 11:32 PM:
 
Jeepers Kreepers it took me a long time to read the entire thread. This has been a really enjoyable thread. Lots of cool stories and things to think about. A couple of things stand out to me. Jeremy really is a gentleman - didn't seem bitter (has every right to be) and was plain, matter-of-factly, kind, and smart with his words. And #2, where the heck was my old sleeping buddy LJ through all this? He never came back after dropping the bomb. :-(
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 02, 2012, 04:18 AM:
 
What would be so complicated about making a rule to the effect that if a team won X number of years, the team would have to break up and chose different partners for a year or two??

Or........Pro & Amateur divisions.

Not a perfect solution by any means but better, I would think, than the resultant; "Yeah, those guys got banned from some contest for something".

The whole thing just don't seem right.
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 02, 2012, 06:29 AM:
 
Scott I would have to agree most people have figured out that the coyote seen deal is not 100% accurate. But I was just using it to make a point that other teams could possibly be into more coyotes than we have been but for unknown reasons just didn't get as many killed. What I'm trying to say is that the number of coyotes we killed in the last couple of MCCE contests is not an impossible number to kill like most of the naysayers are suggesting.
I would be interested in hearing what the other side has to say when you get that story?

Koko they already have a rule that states if you win it two years in a row you must sit out a year or split up. They also have "pro" and "amateur" divisions.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on January 02, 2012, 08:31 AM:
 
Jeremy, I think it speaks volumes by the way you have handled this whole situation.

I think the one thing these almost 200 posts have done is verified there is no perfect way to do it and at some time you just have to have some faith in the human race to do the right thing.

Life is to short to worry about all the little stuff.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on January 03, 2012, 06:30 PM:
 
amen Randy!
aslo,Kelly said earlier that if you wanna be the best,beat the best.i agree also on that.
most knows going into any contest that there are going to be guys better than them.
"better" means having better acsess,time to scout,better equiptment,,knowing the local area,ect. someone can win any contest at any time with luck. the guys that do it regular (usually) take things a bit more serious in all aspects and kudo's to those guys when they win. they deserve it!!
i disagree with the pro-am thing.

[ January 03, 2012, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on January 03, 2012, 08:07 PM:
 
right bearhunter but how many teams put up numbers like you and your brother. Not everyone has 15 coyote days in tournaments.

[ January 03, 2012, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on January 04, 2012, 09:02 AM:
 
Jamie. that day was a 1 in a million. we have not come close to a #'s day like that before or after.i think we've had a few 7-8 days. that day we were in a new area and had 1 day to scout. that goes to show that anyone can get lucky when the stars alighn.
2 days ago,Dcoy and i hunted from dark to dark in a great area. made maybe 15 stands i i never called in 1 coyote and conditions were perfect. yesterday we seen about 20 between the 2 of us and only killed 3. its been a tough year so far for calling.
 

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Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on January 08, 2012, 09:44 PM:
 
Hey Jeremy, while we have you on the phone here, I am curious how that 6mm-06 improved, is working out for you. Are you still using it for Coyotes and what bullet did you finally settle on? What velocity's are you at?
Cheers! Gary
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 09, 2012, 06:03 PM:
 
Gary,
Still shooting a 68 gr Berger at 4000+(4025 if I remember correctly off the top of my head?). Its a coyote killing machine whether its better than just a plain 243 not sure but I like it a lot.
Jeremy
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2012, 08:43 PM:
 
Which 68 Berger? MEF?
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 09, 2012, 09:00 PM:
 
Leonard I thought Berger only made the one 68 gr 6mm bullet?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 09, 2012, 09:35 PM:
 
Apparently, I am not current?

I just checked their website. I know they used to have bullets that I don't see any more? Hell, I have them on the shelf, and I see no reference to them?

Just for instance, I have .224" Bergers 62Target and 62MEF, 65 Target.

Anyway, I did not see a single MEF bullet available?

Good hunting. LB

edit: but I have used a 68 Berger, it was the target bullet. I thought other people were shooting a MEF version 68 grain?

[ January 09, 2012, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 09, 2012, 11:13 PM:
 
Berger made alot of changes in the last few years when the price of everything went up..

Some Mef bullets where dropped or some of the target bullets dropped along with certain weights. Don't know who was calling the shots but it seems that they dropped most of the better bullets that worked well on coyotes and stuck with the red mist bullets...
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on January 10, 2012, 07:01 AM:
 

quote:

---

Jeremy: "What I'm trying to say is that the number of coyotes we killed in the last couple of MCCE contests is not an impossible number to kill like most of the naysayers are suggesting".

---

quote:

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If they are not utilizing howling and/or locating coyotes ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL...

---

Just occurred to me, since most guys who locate, especially in the high pressure environs of a comp hunt, do so in the wee hours of the morning before the contest's legal shooting light, should this be legal, or do any contests consider the act of howling to locate (even though the intent is to locate rather than kill) to be hunting, and hunting before the contest allows hunting to occur, thus violating the rules? Howling has its definite advantages, but it's a part of hunting coyotes and if you're howling before the sun comes up, aren't you "hunting" before hunting is allowed by contest rules? Hate to even bring it up since it might give someone a stupid idea (another unenforceable rule).

[ January 10, 2012, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on January 10, 2012, 08:28 PM:
 
CDog,

Locating is not hunting because you are not shooting. All you are doing is finding out where these coyotes are at that time. Contest hunts need less rules not more.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2012, 08:44 PM:
 
Well, I agree that it is unenforceable to howl before the stated start of the contest, but I disagree with Huber. This is part and parcel of hunting, without a gun, but it's purpose is hunting and I don't even see why he thinks otherwise?

However, other than moral and ethical considerations, I can see no reason to call it cheating in a broad sense.

Scenario #1.The hunt starts at the crack of dawn, you walk out, sit down and call.

Now, for some people....

Scenario #2. The hunt starts at the crack of dawn and this team begins to howl, waits perhaps 15/20 minutes and decides where to best set up and now walks out, sits down and begins to call.

Team #1 was howling for a couple hours before the hunt started. Team #2 didn't actually start calling until after team #1 killed their first animal.....and Scott thinks those guys weren't hunting?

Welcome to The New HuntmastersBBS.com, Kid Coyote. Glad to have you on board. I believe the gentleman's name is Heid, if that rings a bell?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 10, 2012, 11:14 PM:
 
I would guess then that scoutting days before a contest would follow under hunting prior to the contest as well...And asking any of the ranchers for any information on spotted coyotes and so on..

[ January 10, 2012, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by EO caller (Member # 4058) on January 10, 2012, 11:31 PM:
 
Kid Coyote, if I was that upset about that paticular tourney and the way it was put on I wouldn't go to another one. That is my opinion.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on January 11, 2012, 07:00 AM:
 
Leonard,

You and yours can call where the coyotes might be. I will opt to call where they are.

Let's take it to the next step shall we? Can't ask the landowner where they've been hearing or seeing coyotes because that would be an unfair advantage. Can't look for tracks either because that would be an unfair advantage. Can't find out where previous callers have had success because that would be an unfair advantage. Can't howl on a stand because if any coyotes answer it would indicate where your next stand should be. Yup, just walk out and call because an area looks good. As you said, "unenforceable rule".

Lance,

Coyotes that howl in the wee hours of the morning are more than likely out hunting or traveling to and from where they are hunting, they are usually not where they are going to spend the day. All coyote response in the wee hours tells you is what general area they can be found. Locating as you are calling is far more advantageous.

~SH~

[ January 11, 2012, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on January 11, 2012, 07:23 AM:
 
KC: "I'm wondering if this is normal. Does this happen in the Worlds, Midwest, Nationals".

I think you already know it doesn't.

BTW, great job on killing 9 in one day KC!!! I'll buy the first beer cause I know what it takes to accomplish that. I also noticed you about wore the soles off your boots and by the way you walk, I'd say you guys are pretty sore from walking your butts off. Don't pay any attention to the critics at the end of the bar. They've been drinking since noon.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 11, 2012, 07:26 AM:
 
This whole deal is related to the guys banned from the Midwest hunt, and ours. Not necessarily upset, just want to set some things straight. Or give another point of view.

So your first reaction upon reading that would be appreciated.
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 11, 2012, 07:36 AM:
 
Hi Scott. We didn't kill the 9 I'm talking about. But we did shoot 12 the next day.

And it wasn't critics on the end of the bar. It was the guy putting on the hunt.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 11, 2012, 08:53 AM:
 
Your assessment is rediculous, Leonard. What is done prior to the clock starting is SCOUTING, just like preseason work for big game. HUNTING doesn't start until you're in the field with a gun in hand ready to kill stuff.

I killed 12 coyotes in a month one time.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 11, 2012, 09:51 AM:
 
I don't think my "assessment is ridiculous", it's an opinion.

Let's just leave it at unenforceable, shall we?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 11, 2012, 01:33 PM:
 
I agree with you, Scott, but Leonard has done a good job of better explaining the point I was trying to make, while Tim has effectively expounded upon the direction I was going just playing Devil's Advocate here. And, I agree. Hunts need fewer rules rather than more. But, food for thought. YOu know quite well, Scott, that you never engage an adversary execpt fropm a position of strength, and knowing where the cheap seaters are gonne be next is key to countering their squeals with logic.

Should the rules state that locating and censusing property owners prior to the actual event is legal under hunt rules, but that shooting and taking of coyotes shall not be permitted except when within the time constraints of the competition? Do we really even have to go there and be that specific? I hope not, but if I thought about this, I'm sure someone else has as well.

I will add, in defense of this potentiality, that this is not like locked gates or dead piles in that any and every team at most hunts has the equal option of putting time into locating the ground they've chosen to hunt. At the same time, if they choose not to, no one is stopping them.

[ January 11, 2012, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 11, 2012, 09:57 PM:
 
KC,
Im not following what you are getting at? Are we banned from some other hunt besides the midwest???
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 12, 2012, 05:11 AM:
 
I would like everyones opinion on this.
You enter a coyote hunt and are sitting, waiting for the rules meeting. Rules meeting begins without a hitch. Then, event coordinator, the one giving the rules drops f bombs, aholes...etc. Next rule gets some of the same. Have any of you heard of this? Professionalism?

Next hunt more of same, then a team brings in 9 coyotes first day of 2 day hunt and this same Professional instantly tells them, Know one can kill 9 coyotes in a day in one of my hunts. You will be taking a polygraph. Not congrats on an awesome day.

I'm wondering if this is normal. Does this happen in the Worlds, Midwest, Nationals.

Input please. I'll expand after some reply

I just want your first impression of this situation. No I haven't heard of you getting banned from any other hunts. But I know how you feel.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on January 12, 2012, 06:24 AM:
 
KidCoyote. was it known before hand that a poly test would/could be used prior to the hunt??.
if so, i don't see a problem with competing/winning and taking the test.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 12, 2012, 12:22 PM:
 
Professionalism? No. Not at all. I've been known to drop more than my fair share of f-bombs, and that's just been in the last hour. Having said that, I tune my talk to the people I am with. If my immediate crowd is salt of the earth sorts who don't get offended easily, I let 'er rip. Then again, if I'm in front of people I don't know well and am representing someone other than myself, I play to the tamest element in the room, be that guys who don't like swearing, children, ladies, whatever. If you can't speak without trashing things up using foul language, your point must not have been all that important anyway because once said, everyone is focused not so much on what you said, but how you said it. I also consider a man's vernacular to be representative of the type of man he is. Also, a man like that is just the type that would pull after-the-fact crap like you describe. The character of the hunt generally follows the character of the guy putting it together, and in some cases, it's in your best interests to swing wide of both.
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 12, 2012, 07:30 PM:
 
the bearhunter. I don't recall ever saying anything about a polygraph. So whats up.
But since not too many want to reply to this, because I think they no where this is going. We were told that this was going to be dropped and is not to be discussed on his website. And so it is.

Jeremy, you and your partner were railroaded the same way, we were. I was even confronted, and was told, by the hunt coordinator, "How am I supposed to keep teams coming back if you guys keep winning every hunt, and blowing everybody out of the water."
So instead of asking us not to compete, there needed to be a tag put on it. "Bad attitude and drama". That is what we were banned for.

What was Reub's excuse for you guys Jeremy?
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on January 12, 2012, 07:38 PM:
 
KC. on your post (jan 10th) you did mention a poly unless i'm blind???
so if you are a Hied and have something to say, go ahead. this here is a site to air it out.

and just for the sake of saying it, i have nothing but a huge amount of respect for you 2 for doing as well as you do. i know what it takes to compete and do well.

[ January 12, 2012, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 12, 2012, 07:42 PM:
 
I do stand corrected. But that wasn't implied to us. It was to another team, who had a good day. And it pissed the MAN off.
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 12, 2012, 08:10 PM:
 
Honestly KC we would of gladly taken a poly to help with this matter as we have taken them before in other contests that require them but it was never an option. Sounds like our situation is pretty similar to your guys and it sucks but o well nothing you can really do about it.
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 12, 2012, 08:23 PM:
 
We took 2 poly's. And no they aren't bad. Guilty until proven innocent, is how alot of contests are getting. So a poly can help prove no foul play. But they should be subject to everyone. The first one that we took, this was said, "This will every year, so that every other team member can be assured that they weren't cheated in the hunt."

Has never happened again, in that hunt. But then again we aren't allowed in it. And yes we passed. Different hunt, ran by the same guy, said poly will be used if necessary. But will be taken at your own convenience. One of took it and member of 2nd place team also.

So I do think they work for your own innocence, but farther than that.... Not sure. If everyone is subject to them, I would say yes.

Jeremy, it looks like it would have helped your case also, like ours in proving innocence. So that the rumors of cheating would be cleared up, instead most people assume foul play when you are BANNED.
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 12, 2012, 08:30 PM:
 
Yes I think it would helped? But hopefully the email they sent back out hopefully cleared it up some? In case you didn't see that this is it.

"This email is sent to clarify the email sent to you on December 10, 2011.

The board of directors decided the team of Gugelmeyer/Peterson is no longer welcome to participate in the contest because their consistent success (winning 4 out of 5 years) has led to a decrease in participation. They have not broken any contest rules.

Gugelmeyer/Peterson have agreed that they will not participate in the 2012 Midwest Coyote Calling Event and any future events."
 

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Posted by Kid Coyote (Member # 4064) on January 12, 2012, 09:38 PM:
 
That email was well written. But who would have ever thought that coyote hunting events would come to this.

Someone having success, banned, because that particular hunt is going under. Teams complaining to the hunt coordinator that they won't enter because they can't compete with so and so. Maybe a little more scouting, more practice calling, shooting, handling coyotes and less internet bitching.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 12, 2012, 10:34 PM:
 
Jeremy, have the same rules been in place regarding the same team winning two years in a row? Speaking of the Midwest. I thought the deal was, you can both hunt, but you have to have a different partner?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on January 13, 2012, 01:43 AM:
 
"The board of directors decided the team of Gugelmeyer/Peterson is no longer welcome to participate in the contest because their consistent success (winning 4 out of 5 years) has led to a decrease in participation. They have not broken any contest rules."

Hahaha! That's too funny. What a bunch of "thumbsuckers".

I don't believe there was any decrease in participation. When Jeremy and Nick were winning, there were 130 - 150 teams participating. The MCCE was turning teams away and that's a fact. This year participation was down from previous years.

Jeremy, if it's any consulation, I have talked to a number of highly competitive teams that have competed in the MCCE and they feel the same way about this as I do. They think it's real "chickensh*t".

I can see it now, "Trevor Brazile has been banned from the PRCA because....ah well because....ahhhh because he wins too much". LOL!

My advice to you is to go calling coyotes in other states and other areas and have some fun while you are still young and able. Invest some of your winnings by hunting coyotes somewhere that you have always wanted to hunt.

The folks that matter will stand by you and your adversaries can pretend they are the best because they had the best banned from competing against them. LOL! I can assure you that you are not the first to fall to the sword of jealousy and you won't be the last.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 10:27 AM:
 
I hope Bret hasn't started a trend? I can just see it; Olympic Committee tells swimmer he won too many gold metals, therefore, give somebody else a chance next year. Get lost!

I think Jeremy can become the next Byron South. What an angle;

WEAR THE SAME UNDERWEAR AS JEREMY GUGELMEYER, THE MAN SO GOOD HE'S DISQUALIFIED BEFORE HE STARTS!

BUY THE SAME PICK UP THAT JEREMY GUGELMEYER, THE COYOTE KILLING MACHINE DRIVES!

JEREMY GUGELMEYER, THE MAN DISQUALIFIED FROM EVERY CONTEST ON THE PLANET EATS WHEATIES!

Face it Jeremy, you need an agent and I'm just the guy you need. Give me a call, partner.

Good hunting. LB

edit: BE A HONEY BADGER WITH GUGELMEYER CAMO
(am working on more, this is hot!)

edit: Hold my calls, I am in conference

[ January 13, 2012, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 13, 2012, 11:27 AM:
 
Excellent choice going with a honey badger theme. They are sooo "in" right now...

HONEY BADGER
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 12:00 PM:
 
I got it! Can't get more MACHO.

Drink GUGELMEYER Honey Badger Ale. Breakfast of Champions!

edit: Two phone calls and I got him on the APPRENTICE and DANCING WITH THE STARS!

[ January 13, 2012, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 12:33 PM:
 
Throw away that "Dragon's Blood" TIGER BLOOD is for chumps.

Get with the program!

GUGELMEYER BLOOD, at fine stores everywhere!

[ January 13, 2012, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 12:38 PM:
 
GUGELMEYER petitions court to get on South Carolina and Florida Primary! Film at Eleven!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 12:46 PM:
 
Finally revealed: Tim Tebow stole his trademark "Tebowing" from JEREMY GUGELMEYER, who plans to sue the popular quarterback.

KIM KARDASHIAN PLANS WEDDING WITH HOT NEW STUD, JEREMY GUGELMEYER!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 13, 2012, 06:42 PM:
 
I'm guessing Nick's pretty pissed about now. LOL Same goes for Jeremy's betrothed, too.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 13, 2012, 08:10 PM:
 
Don't worry Jeremy, LB misreads the directions on his meds sometimes, he'll be alright in a while.

BTW, that email is unbelievable, by claiming your innocence it somehow makes it OK to permenantly ban you for doing a good job......BS!!!

That e-mail should be posted on every hunting board on the WWW so all can see the limp wristed way in which it was handled.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 13, 2012, 09:15 PM:
 
There you go, Jason. Your new mission in life!

Actually, the whole deal sounds like the makings of a federal job. Do well, get busted and shit on. Screw up, and get promoted. Had he and Nick totally blanked those 4-5 years, they'd probably be running the hunt by now.
 

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Posted by jbmartin (Member # 651) on January 13, 2012, 09:15 PM:
 
I don't post much, or very often, but this should give all of you something to read. I think it is all about the second of the contests that is being discussed.

http://www.coyotehunter.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=8

To be more specific, if you go under topics and then 10NDCC, the rules (esp #10 and #22) seem rather extensive and made to let the director question just about anything. I can't believe if they question a coyote and dq it, you as a team have to pay more money for a review. If you read the rest of the banter, I can see where KC is coming from on professionalism, etc.

JBM

[ January 14, 2012, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: jbmartin ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 13, 2012, 09:39 PM:
 
Nah Lance, I only visit a couple sites, maybe Tim could do it, prolly cover the entire net by noon tomorrow.

It does sound like a federal job, doesn't it. That email blows my mind.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2012, 10:03 PM:
 
Perhaps jbmartin could be a little more specific? It would be appreciated.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on January 14, 2012, 05:24 AM:
 
Hahaha Leonard!

That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Disqualified before he's even entered, Hahaha! Thanks for the laugh bud.

Jeremy,

See how many contests you can get banned from for winning too much. That's a nobel goal. While the "thumbsuckers" are cussing your success, they'll be following you around wondering, "how do they do it".

MCCE ..... where we ban the winners for winning too much!

~SH~
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 14, 2012, 07:40 AM:
 
Leonard,
The rule has been in place for sometime. They make you sit out for 1 year or split up and hunt with somebody else if you win 2 years in a row. If my memory is correct this rule was in place before we even started hunting the contest. Don't quote me on this but I believe it was made because of the Schmid brothers??? I'm sure somebody else can correct or confirm that?

You may of over done yourself I don't think we are movie star quality lol?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2012, 08:29 AM:
 
Don't be too sure, Jeremy. Les started the same way and he's a big movie star, almost as big as Byron.

Good hunting. El Beano

edit: That's it! You need a trademark, like what Randy Anderson does ....come 'er little coyote, or like Les says between clips: "Let's get to huntin, hehe".

I'm going to make you famous! Like Elvis and Colonel Parker! Well, you're too young to know who he is, but he MADE Elvis! Wait a minute; you know about Elvis, don't you? <sigh> KIDS!

[ January 14, 2012, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on January 14, 2012, 09:04 AM:
 
Jeremy and KC, nice name dude!!LOL

Although not as familar with how you hunt as I am with KC's Jeremy I assume it is similar.

Nothing but respect for both of ya!
 

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Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on January 14, 2012, 11:13 AM:
 
jeremy looks like a raw deal, i was there the year he talked you guys up so much and you got the hunter of the yr or whatever they called it, he talked like he was your best friend and that you guys were the best guys around, and from talking with you i figured he was right, he sure had a change of heart didnt he? i havent talked to you much but what little i have you seem to be a sure a enough stand up guy to me, by the way were you at the ranch rodeo finals this year, we did make it
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2012, 12:20 PM:
 
This just in!

Kardashian/Gugglemyer Nuptuals in Trouble. He wants a prenup, claims the golddigger is just after his money.
In other news: Their sex tape continues to break all records!

watch here: http:Gugglemeyer.Kardashian.com
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 14, 2012, 01:22 PM:
 
Ryan, we went down for a couple days, I showed my horse in the RHAA ranch horse show.

Leonard while your at it maybe you can find me a sponsor to purchase me a new OLY 22-250 AR and S.A.S suppressor TR and I have been exchanging emails about!!??
 

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Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on January 14, 2012, 02:02 PM:
 
howed you place in the show? thats the only reason my dad goes is to watch the horse show, it is good to watch good horses work
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 14, 2012, 02:13 PM:
 
I was 3rd in the cowboy class. I think there was 30 entered so I was pretty happy. I qualified for the RHAA finals held at Abilene in May which was my goal.

[ January 14, 2012, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
 

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Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on January 14, 2012, 02:23 PM:
 
have you ever been down to that get together before? if not go for the whole deal, man abilene was fun, about the same trade show and alot more stuff to do and see outside when i was there, thats been 10 years ago so the night time fun was more of what i was looking for anyways, and there was plenty of it
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 14, 2012, 02:26 PM:
 
Never been but looking forward to it. I have heard good things.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2012, 02:34 PM:
 
If you need a place to stay, go see Lance. He's about the most famous person in Abilene, I think he's the mayor or city council? Something like that? I know he's held/been elected to every job in town except dog catcher. Tell him, I sent ya.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 14, 2012, 05:12 PM:
 

quote:

---

Nah Lance, I only visit a couple sites, maybe Tim could do it,

---

Nope!! Its not my fight..
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on January 14, 2012, 05:16 PM:
 
Wrong Abilene Lb!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 14, 2012, 06:03 PM:
 
Cross, this is the right Abilene, as far as I'm concerned, but not the same one they're talking about. That one's a bit bigger than this one, but not nearly the number of celebrities from there.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2012, 06:09 PM:
 
There's two?

Women there, they treat you mean, in Abilene. My Abilene.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: Let's get to Tebowing! YeHaw!

[ January 14, 2012, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on January 14, 2012, 06:22 PM:
 
posted January 14, 2012 05:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah Lance, I only visit a couple sites, maybe Tim could do it,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope!! Its not my fight..
NEVER STOPPED YOU BEFORE

[ January 14, 2012, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 14, 2012, 06:57 PM:
 

 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 14, 2012, 07:41 PM:
 
I'm disappointed I thought I would get a rise out of ARshaw or CrossJ on my AR wish!
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on January 14, 2012, 08:37 PM:
 

quote:

---

I'm disappointed I thought I would get a rise out of ARshaw or CrossJ on my AR wish

---

quote:

---

Women there, they treat you mean, in Abilene. My Abilene.

---

quote:

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Darwin, Minnesota is the home of a ball by Francis A. Johnson. It is 4 meters (12 ft) in diameter and weighs 4,900 kg (10,400 lbs). He started his obsession in March 1950 and wrapped four hours every day for 23 weeks. It is currently housed in a specially made gazebo across from the town park on Main Street, and the town celebrates "Twine Ball Day" the second Saturday in August every year. An adjacent volunteer-run, free to visit, museum and gift shop has displays on the ball's history as well as selling a variety of souvenirs.

[edit] Largest sisal twine ball built by a community

Another ball was started in Cawker City, Kansas by Frank Stoeber. He saw Johnson's ball as a challenge and started his own. Stoeber had 1.6 million feet (490,000 m) of twine on his 11-foot-diameter (3.4 m) ball when he died in 1974. Cawker City built an open-air gazebo over Stoeber's ball where every August a "Twine-a-thon" is held and more twine is added to the ball. As of 2006, the twine ball has reached 17,886 pounds (8,111 kg), a circumference of 40 feet (12 m), and a length of 7,801,766 feet (2,377,978 m). At a length of over 1,475 miles, it would reach as far as Boston, the Bahamas, Cuba, Mexico City, Vancouver, Hudson Bay, or Canada's Northwest Territories from Cawker City if it were unwound. This is now the world's largest and heaviest ball of sisal twine.[1]

[edit] Heaviest ball of twine ever built

In Lake Nebagamon, Wisconsin, James Frank Kotera, who likes to be known as JFK, claims to have made the biggest ball of twine ever built. He started it in 1979 and is still working. JFK estimates, by measuring the weight of each bag of twine that he winds on, that the ball weighs 19,336 pounds (8,770 kg), making it the heaviest ball of twine ever built. The ball is housed in an open-air enclosure in JFK's lawn. The ball has a smaller companion, "Junior", that is made of string.

[edit] Largest twine ball ever built

Yet another ball claims the title of largest ball of twine in the world and this one has been certified by the Guinness Book of World Records.[citation needed] It is owned by Ripley's Believe It or Not in Branson, Missouri and was reportedly built by millionaire J. C. Payne of Valley View, Texas.[citation needed] By using a "system of pulleys" Payne claims he built the ball in four years all by himself. The ball measures 41.5 feet (12.6 m) in circumference.

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We sent ours out to command the Allied Expeditionary Forces, defeat Naziism, win World War II and pretty much save the entire world before becoming POTUS.

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by golly Timmey, you ARE a dale carnegie graduate. got-damned walking encyclopedia

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Kansas is tied with Nebraska at # 23 with a state population of veterans of 12.5 % with Alaska haveing the most..

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And, to think... it only took one Kansan to do all that. I guess the other 12.499999999999999999% should quit their slackin' and step up.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 15, 2012, 07:36 PM:
 
Oh man!!! Lance, have you been hangin out with those Texans again?

[ January 15, 2012, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 15, 2012, 08:15 PM:
 
"Okies! Hello?"

Sorry, been writing all this priceless info down in triplicate and storing it in several strategic places.

Never know when I might need it.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2012, 08:32 PM:
 
Hell, yes! You never know when there will be a snap quiz! Listen up, Okies!

Good hunting. El Beaner
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 17, 2012, 06:56 AM:
 

 

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