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Author
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Topic: Explanation?
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Les Johnson
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3087
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posted December 13, 2011 04:04 PM
From the board of directors;
It has been discussed and voted on, the team of Peterson and Gugglemyer will not be competing in the 2012 Midwest Coyote Calling Event or future Midwest Coyote Calling Events. The board realizes that without 100% proof that this team has harvested coyotes against the rules of the competition that we need to keep the integrity of the hunt. Now that there is a board of directors situations like this can be handled without 1 person being responsible for making decisions.
With this being said we want to let the past callers know that this team will not be competing and that we welcome your participation in the 2012 Event a future events.
MCCE Board
Posts: 10 | From: Nebr. | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 13, 2011 04:34 PM
Wow, Les! That's some pretty provocative stuff. You are pretty well dialed in, what do you make of it?
To me, it looks like they are accusing these men of cheating, without saying it. Why else would they be banned?
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted December 13, 2011 04:57 PM
Jeremy and Nick are good hunters, good shots, and have good ground to hunt. Absolutely no way did they cheat to win. In my opinion.
Sounds to me like there are some cry babies tired of competing for second place or less.
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted December 13, 2011 05:10 PM
I absolutely agree Randy. I see it is being blamed on the 'board', but sounds to me like 100% that whiney ass reub. Hell, that sorry fucker was trying to accuse me and Randy of cheating BEFORE the hunt started. Brents ass got canned from hevi shot, so now he needs the midwest for income, and seeing that he holds out about 90% off the entry fees, he should pad his pocket pretty well.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 13, 2011 05:12 PM
I had this e-mail forwarded to me two days ago. I believe it went out to everyone whose participated in the Midwest event. I have my thought on it, but am very curious as to what others think.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted December 13, 2011 06:03 PM
If cheating were the reason, then the time right after the event that cheating was suspected, the issue should've been tackled.
IMO, I agree wity Randy,....must be a lot of whining from those that can't beat the team. I wonder if fewer teams have entered, which might also be a leading reason for this take place?
SO, Jeremy should get another partner for the next couple of years, and clean house again. And once he gets completely banned, let Nick step in on his ground with a new partner, and clean house for a couple more years.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted December 13, 2011 06:24 PM
I say let them back in with one exception they have to have all there kills on vid.
Would be interesting to see if they can come up with the same numbers....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted December 13, 2011 07:17 PM
quote:
I say let them back in with one exception they have to have all there kills on vid.
Would be interesting to see if they can come up with the same numbers....
Just them or everyone competing has to have video proof?
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted December 13, 2011 07:32 PM
At the moument the complaint is just those two. What better way is there to put this all to rest...
The V.H. is haveing a contest again this week-end, all kills have to be on tape and brought in at check in time.
[ December 13, 2011, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 13, 2011 07:41 PM
Good idea, Tim. And while he's at it, he would have to foist the same requirement on every other team in the hunt, too, in order to avoid being accused of the same thing, just different, of one team having a distinct disadvantage over all other entrants.
Ultimately, the best way to ensure complaince with all current and existing rules would be to have a rep, or judge, to accompany every team in the field, like Geoff Nemncih does. But, the logistics of this with as many teams as the MCCE has would be a nightmare and impractical.
I chose to withhold judgment on this until I had collected some information. As someone who has experienced what it's like to coordinate a hunt, you're often damned if you do and damned if you don't. No matter who wins or the circumstances surrounding their win, someone is going to cry foul. Sore losers, whatever. You cannot please everyone. You end up doing the best you can and try your best to keep the playing field as level as possible and you sure as hell don't throw contestants under the bus because it's the easy way out.
Two years ago, we had a team lose their log sheet, disqualifying them at check in. They were upset because they would have placed. I don't blame them. But, the rule at the time of the rules meeting was that the log sheet - our log sheet - had to accompany the coyotes at check in and if it didn't? You're out. This team thought we should change the rule right there and then. We said no. Two other teams had done the same thing and went home without checking in. Would the rule be changed? Yes, possibly, but the change would have to be announced at the rules meeting so that everyone was equally aware of what was and what was not a disqualifiable offense. Since then, we have modified that rule, but at that time (and now), the #1 rule is that rules stand as presented at the rules meeting and will not be changed during the course of the hunt for any reason.
To this incident, I wonder how much of this has to do with a recently announced rule that disallows baiting. I have not been told if this was involved or not, But, assuming it is, the rule just went into affect. None of the hunts Jeremy and Nick won were ruled under this provision. Therefore, baiting, or hunting over bait, was not illegal at the time.
This raises an even bigger question. What good is a rule when it cannot be reasonably enforced? How do you, as the hunt coordinator and judge, exercise reasonable objectivity in enforcing your rules? After all, when you run a hunt and you have to think up all the possibilities that may present themselves, you quickly realize how explosively daunting that task is.
Let's look at baiting. Is it baiting only if you place the bait? How about if you're calling over the carcass of a dead horse or cow that died there naturally or was dumped there by a farmer or rancher? Better yet, what happens if you're hunting an area you know holds a lot of coyotes, but are unaware that there are so many coyotes there because of a carcass pit you don't know about? Does another team who tried unsuccessfully to get permission to hunt there have the right o turn you in for cheating when there was no intent to cheat on your part? How do you enforce that?
A quesions we've discussed... you're calling and shoot a coyote that escapes into heavy cover. You know the coyote is mortally wounded and are growing concerned that you're spending valuable time searching for a dead coyote when you should be calling the next one. Do you make it a rules violation for this guy to go back after sunset (shooting hours) and search for/ recover that coyote? The coyote is presumably dead already. And, if this is a rules violation, how do you enforce it? What if you have a team working a large area on foot who run and gun along, calling, shooting and waypointing their dead coyotes with GPS, then going back after dark and recovering them? Are all those coyotes illegally taken because they weren't recovered at the very moment they were killed? Wouldn't this last scenario be a better use of your limited time in a competition setting that walking every dead coyote back to the truck one at a time? And doesn't the thin line between winners and losers separate the guys with the best strategic plan from those who didn't do their homework?
One man's strategy is another man's defeat. Where do you draw the line?
Seems to me that when it comes to the Midwest, everything is for sale.
How much are two men's reputations worth in coyote hides?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted December 13, 2011 07:57 PM
quote:
Good idea, Tim. And while he's at it, he would have to foist the same requirement on every other team in the hunt, too, in order to avoid being accused of the same thing, just different, of one team having a distinct disadvantage over all other entrants.
At the moument only one team has been banned from the contest. What I'm saying is let them compete but have it all on film and if they win then there should'nt be any questions about it.. Like someone once said "no pic.s it did'nt happen"......
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 13, 2011 08:39 PM
What ever happened to doing this shit just for the fun of it???? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Good grief!!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted December 13, 2011 09:48 PM
Lance very good point and always something we are thinking about with our hunts.
I agree with what can you enforce? The one rule i didn't like at Nationals was no splitting up. A team that has 60,000 acres of locked gates to hunt can split up all they want because there isn't going to be any other teams back there to see them. The guys hunting public land stayed together per the rules but how does the coordinator enforce the rule without flying around in a helicopter all day looking at teams and making sure they not more than 200yds apart or whatever the rule was.
Has it come out yet what rule the board is accusing them of breaking?
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 13, 2011 10:40 PM
Boy, I could say a lot about this subject having been solely responsible for all CSVCA hunts for 10½ years. And, I sure made some enemies while trying to do the right thing. And, guess what. The whiners that couldn't beat my club eventually tore down the whole state organization. How's that for sore losers? Like Clever Gary and his buddy Jamroz.
Yep, it's always jealousy. These guys can't do it so they believe the other team MUST be cheating.
Over on the "professional" board, there was mention of a couple names, people I had personally fucked over. Troy Spillman for one. Well, like all liars, they left out the most important part, that being Troy's partner wasn't a paid member and even after giving the man some time to pay up, he still didn't do it and I was forced to disqualify the team. Everybody felt bad for poor Troy, but everybody else had to be a paid up member, and rules are rules. So, the insinuation was that I'm the big prick for disqualifying Troy. That's how liars operate; half truths.
But, in my opinion, this is getting to be utterly ridiculous. When every coyote has to be on tape, that is where logic is out the door and stupidity takes over. Bring back lie detectors or whatever, but whoever came up with videotaping every kill needs his ass kicked.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted December 13, 2011 11:02 PM
Its not that big of a deal, you mount the cam to your scope zero it in so the barrel is out of the way press record and shoot whats comes in. It keeps everyone pretty honest..
There is no more getting beat by a team that shoots uncalled coyotes, after all its a calling contest. You go to a check in and you see a team with 6 coyotes and everyone is shot in or up the ass, either they are piss poor shots or not playing by the rules..
The vid. contest the V.H. puts on is just another way to get a group of guys together and have some fun, there is'nt any big money in it like most of the other contests.. Another neat thing about it, is if you don't like it you don't have to enter.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 14, 2011 05:58 AM
Alright, Tim. I'll bite. Put cameras on every gun. Even the low end ones run a hundred bucks. How do you fund that? Add $200 to every entry fee (2 guns per team)? Eat the cost up front? For our hunt, that would mean having to come up with $20,000 when we're struggling to get by now wnad still keep the entry fees affordable. You cannot stick just certain teams with this mandate as it isn't any more right to saddle one team with a disadvantage as it is to allow that same team what you regard to be an unfair advantange. Someone would complain, and damned sure have a right to.
Sometimes, you just have to accept that there are many situations that you can't pass rules for or the whole process gets so bogged down in bullshit that you piss the fun right out of it. That's when you just fall back on good ol' fashioned honor and hope for the best.
BTW, this ban had nothing to do with the baiting issue. I can't say what was at the bottom of it, but I will say that had it been the baiting issue, the matter would have been much more cut and dried. The real reason behind their being banned was an utterly ridiculous and ambiguous decision by Brent's "board". My guess is that should Jeremy and Nick decide to pursue things, they have the grounds for a helluva colorful response. I will only say that if the reason they used was good enough to base banning these guys off of, how safe are the rest of you in that hunt? From what I've heard, not very.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted December 14, 2011 07:34 AM
So are Nick and Jeremy banned just as a "team", or can they not participate with different partners?
I still say if they are being banned for cheating, then they should've been stripped of the win in the contest when the "suspected" cheating took place. Banning them from all future contests looks more like someone is trying to please the "nay"sayer crowd, and if that's the case, BAD move by the upper powers.
On edit, if they aren't banned from the contest IF they are seperated, then I hope they take turns entering with seperate partners and hunt thier honey hole and win the contest every year.
[ December 14, 2011, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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J_hun
Knows what it's all about
Member # 872
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posted December 14, 2011 08:07 AM
I sure wish Jeremy would chime in and clarify a few things. It sounds like everything is based on just accusations. Let's hear your side Jeremy.
Posts: 141 | From: Pierre,S.D. | Registered: Jun 2006
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted December 14, 2011 08:58 AM
I had heard the rumors on this a few days ago, hope we get to hear the reasoning. Also hope Jeremy gets on and tells his side of the story. I am guessing most everyone on this board will be on his side.
Without clear cut evidence of cheating and it being shown openly to the public I think its bullshit. It sounds like they just decided they didnt want them in the contest anymore and that was that. I figured the new rule was geared toward them. No matter what if you're at the top the rumors and shit talking follows by those that will never understand. If they have done it legitimately then good for them. I have heard from a number of people that have met and know enough of them that they are legit.
Few things that were mentioned......the lie detector test....I wish they had these at every major contest. If every team pitched in an extra few bucks I think it would be a viable option. Second thing about sending reps. Maybe with the big contests send a rep with the top 10-15 teams from the previous year?? Might be the only way to police the regulars. I realize that new teams would be able to skate past it but it would be the only way to make it work with the larger contests. I do have to admit. Geoff's contest he puts on is pretty neat with the reps with every team. I really like it.
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 14, 2011 09:00 AM
Would someone please provide some more background info on this contest? Do these fellas come in & clean house every year?
If that's the case, then good on 'em!
But whatever the history is, the almighty $$$ can & will take the fun right out of most any type of tournament experience.
Easy for me to say, but I'd keep any payouts limited to entry fees + a maybe a couple bucks for expenses. THEN, donate the rest to a worthy local charity, in the winner's/organizers names.
Or, is it that some of these coyote tournaments are nothing more than a bu$ine$$ to their organizers?
Are most teams entering to capitalize on a potential payday, nothing more?
Doesn't the respect of one's peers count for anything to anyone, anymore?
The VHA video hunt does sound like FUN!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 14, 2011 09:39 AM
quote:
the lie detector test....I wish they had these at every major contest. If every team pitched in an extra few bucks I think it would be a viable option.
Dustin,
We looked into these. The results are "iffy" at best, and in Kansas, the lowest price I could find to have one done by a reputable technician was around $1300 per test. How much more would you be willing to pay to enter? Makes Tim's $200 for camera for each contestant begin to look good. LOL
And BTW, I chose to go to the source, if you will, and spoke with Jeremy on this. As an associate and a friend, I figured he deserved the opprotunity to present his side. Told him I wouldn't share any details but will say that the reason he isn't here clarifying things is that it isn't in his best interests to do so just yet. Take from that what you will. Don't assume that anyone is guilty because they haven't yet provided evidence in their defense.
I will also say that when you find out the real reason for which they have been banned, you will be rendered speechless. Sorry for the tease, but the truth leaves you to wonder just who the reprobate is and who isn't. Glad to see another hunt making these mistakes. It saves the KPC the pain and anguish of slamming our own d***s in a drawer. I'm all about learning from the failures of my friends. LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ December 14, 2011, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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J_hun
Knows what it's all about
Member # 872
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posted December 14, 2011 09:59 AM
I'm going to say one more thing. Brent Rueb is for Brent Rueb only. Just my observations over a few years.
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted December 14, 2011 10:10 AM
Lance, if its that much per test thats insane. If it was that much to rent the machine and tech to test the top 5 teams then it would totally be worth it. The results being iffy I didnt know about. I figured they would be better than that. If they are iffy then I guess lie detectors suck lol.
I never once said I assumed they were guilty. Infact the opposite.
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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Les Johnson
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3087
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posted December 14, 2011 10:21 AM
Lance, please dont stroke Tim's ego on the camera deal...! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Like Geordie, I have been accused of cheating.
Leonard, I can understand how hard it must of been to run a hunt. Rules are in place for a reason, but are always tested. How would the NFL of turned out 15-20 years ago had they had the ability to challenge a particular play or outcome like they do now? Funny how it all changes.
I have competed in competitions from 1990 up until about 2 years ago. Chadron Nebr, Sidney Cabela's Hunt(3 times), the Midwest (6 times), National (14 or more times), World (Cortez, CO twice and Elko, NV once), Northeast Kansas Coyote Challenge (once), Springfield Colorado hunt (twice), etc. Most of these hunts operated similarly. Most hunts had you call and check in at the end of the first day if they were a 2 day hunt. The National was a 2 day hunt, but you were required to drive back and check in the first days coyotes and all coyotes had to have mouth blocks with time of kill and they were temperature probed. If any coyotes were colder than they should've been as compared to alot of coyotes that were killed within proximity of time, then that coyote was thrown aside and the team members talked to. Norm Heater had 15+ years of temperature data on coyote temperatures and time of kill, etc. Very interesting data to say the least.
Springfield Colorado put on a hunt like Geoff does. Each team had a judge or guide. The judge/guide actually had an area where you were alloted to hunt and he had all of the permission all lined up, etc. You drew your judge/guide's name out of a hat at the time of the pre-meeting. I had alot of fun at that hunt and it was only a 1 day event. You may draw a Judge/guide that only had land that was as flat as a pancake with nothing but farmland whereas another judge/guide had areas with canyons and large pastures, etc.
Oh and Tim...what is it that you know about filming coyote kills?
LJ
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 14, 2011 10:24 AM
Great to see you, Les, and thanks for being the first to break this developing story. BTW, are we going to see you and Jeff at the KPC January 27-29? Lotsa coyotes around here this year and I'm thinking it'll be a great hunt.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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