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Author
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Topic: ADC question
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 23, 2011 07:16 PM
I had a guy come in today that lost a foal. He showed me a pic of it still in the birth sack, it's throat was tore open and looked like the ears were chewed off. No other damage.
He told me about the place last year and I went to look it over. 200 acres mostly open and he had some guys in there harvesting pecans. I more or less forgot about it cause the guys were in there in the only cover availabe and it was almost time for me to quit.
He seen 3 large coyotes out in the hay meadow one evening and thinks these are what killed his foal. I know without seeing the evidence you can't say but would the coyotes just kill it then move on or could it be dogs?
This happened the middle of last month.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted May 23, 2011 07:40 PM
Tom, Lots of variables, but if the foal was still in the sack it is highly likely that it was stillborn and never got up. Two things we look at is that sack and the hooves. It is easy to tell if the foal was ever up. If it wasn't, and the mare was there and able to defend herself I highly doubt if anything killed the foal.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 23, 2011 07:43 PM
I'll chime in with my .02 before Cal or Scott do. Since it was in the sack, it obviuously didn't stand and try to escape, nurse or do anything a live foal would have done. One hint that it may have been stillborn.
Second, was there any blood around to indicate the foal was alive when "whatever" got hold if it? A throat wound would have bled like hell.
Also, was the mare nearby, any evidence of trauma to her from the coyotes (presumably) getting after her while foaling?
Sounds to me like it was stillborn and what you saw was simply evidence of scavenging.
[ May 23, 2011, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 23, 2011 07:45 PM
Oops. Typing at the same time...
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 23, 2011 07:49 PM
Thanks, I remember ya'll saying something about the sack and blood which there was little on the ground and even on the foal.
I'll go make a stand or two and see if anything comes of the 3 he saw but I won't feel as bad for not showing up a few months ago.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted May 24, 2011 08:40 AM
All good info...
Might be that those coyotes chased the mare around and helped cause a stillbirth. Any signs of being nipped or bitten could be telling.
I'd certainly agree the foal was likely stillborn, then chewed on by a scavenger.
Nikonut
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted May 24, 2011 03:12 PM
Tom, highly unlikely that the coyotes killed it, dogs usually make a hell of a mess killing wise so it most likely rules them out.
A lot of the times you have very little left of whatever it was to determine any of this, this seems pretty clear all thou Niko brings up a good point.
Coyotes get blamed for a lot of stuff they don't do and cause other stuff that can lead to a death without actually sinking their teeth into it.
I had one foal deal it looked like coyotes chased the hell out it til it stepped between the wires and got caught.
Had another where coyotes chased adult horses in a tight pasture and ran them into a fence where one again got all tangled up in the fence and impaled itself on a post. Had to be put down.
Had one more like this deal, two days old. Was alive the night before and next morning it had about a fist sized hole eaten on both hams, paunch opened, and teeth marks on the throat.
In all three cases at least a pair of coyotes were killed right in the kill area, super agressive coyotes. The pairs killed on the first and last scenarios had foal in their stomachs. In all three cases no more foals or horses were lost or injured after the coyotes were removed.
I've seen coyotes afraid of horses and dam near get stomped to death by them if the horses catch them out in the open and seen horses that are deathly afraid of coyotes and panic at the sight of them. It depends on the horse and what it's used to.
We've got some big herds of more or less wild horses in pastures and if you howl they will dam near run you out of the pasture and can put the fear of god in a decoy dog. Usually not many coyotes in or around horse pastures.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted May 24, 2011 06:19 PM
quote:
.....if you howl they will dam near run you out of the pasture and can put the fear of god in a decoy dog. Usually not many coyotes in or around horse pastures.
LOL. Randy, i was calling over in the osage a couple years ago. The ranch had a big band of mustangs they were grazing(welfare for mustangs). Anyway, I howled and soon after thought I was going to be stomped to death. I would rather go hand to hand with the mulie doe Shaw watched almost land in my lap than try to shoot my way through a band of broody mustangs.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted May 25, 2011 10:39 PM
without actually looking at it i would say stillborn and scavened, however how the mare was acting right after finding the foal would be something to let you know more. Even if the coyotes didn't actually choke the foal out they might have seen the mare down got her up and chased her around smelling the birth fluids and caused a still born, broken neck from birthing upright ect ect.
Dogs would have made a mess.
Generelly if the sack is still on and the hoofs show no proof of being up on it's feet the coyotes didn't actually "kill" the victim.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 26, 2011 05:46 AM
Thanks guys, this interests me quite a bit. This guy came in and was sort of saying "see I told you so". Only something didn't look right to me, I just didn't know what. I need to pay more attention to the details. I'll go after his 3 giant coyotes anyway.
On another note, I had a guy come in yesterday and ask if I'd been hunting. I told him no, not since March rolled around. He proceeded to tell me I done good on his coyotes but by god I better get back out there, he's starting to see them again.
I'll have to start making a few evening stands after work. Life is good.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted May 26, 2011 06:36 AM
I went and looked at a goat deal yesterday afternoon Tom. After I looked it over, I told him the coyotes are not on him, but would be coming from the his neighbors. He got on the phone and got access. Now if he will get me on the guy across the highway that has a couple miles of creek bottom....
Cool thing was he doesn't have the goats yet, He wanted me to come over and work on them before he moved the goats and the guard dogs in. This will give me and the dogs alittle something to work on and insure I keep a good dose of chiggers.
Stay after them
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2011 09:37 AM
A couple chiggers is a small price to pay. Those are the tiny little red things? Only place I have ever seen them was in Missouri a couple years ago. Compared to our critters, not a problem.
Kelly, you don't need creek bottom. You are already killing more than your share.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted May 26, 2011 12:20 PM
LB if you ever get 5 or 6 on your nuttsack, you might change you tune.
I spray down good and don't have much of a problem. DEET is your buddy.
[ May 26, 2011, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2011 01:01 PM
Serious question: Are these the same as what are called "crabs"? I have no idea, just a word I have heard.
What is a really serious thing in our local mountains is poison oak. I have seen poison ivy, and I believe you have to touch it? But, poison oak can be airborne spores, (if that is a correct term?) and you don't have to make contact with the plant itself. It can either drive you completely NUTS, or you aren't aware of it for hours. I have seen victims of poison oak that look very much like they were beaten and stomped by several people. Ugly, ugly scabs all over the body and head.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted May 26, 2011 01:10 PM
depends on the person some people can be close to posion ivy and break out in a rash, others can get right in it and as long as it doesn;t come in skin contact they are fine.
Ivy comes in 2 forms vine and brush types both will give you an nasty red ichy rash. Out here we have alot of it and it seems coyotes like to den in rocky outcropping with some brush for cover and alot of times that cover is posion Ivy, must not effect them like it does people.
Just make sure I have gloves and LS shirt on when dealing in these areas.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted May 26, 2011 01:14 PM
no crabs are a body lice. Chigger burrow under the skin and itch like heck.
Posion Oak, Posion Ivy we got them both. Might have posion sumac also, but far as I know I have never got into any.
The oil from these plants causes the trouble.
Used to take shots for it, don't get it too bad anymore. No fun when your eyes are swelled shut.
[ May 26, 2011, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 26, 2011 01:16 PM
LB, think crabs crossed with a tick that has poison oak and is pissed off.
Chiggers affect some worse than others, some make a tiny red spot and others make a red whelp, a good dose makes everyone want to cut em out with a sharp knife.
We have poison oak and ivy, both can be transferred by air, especially if you burn brush piles with it in them.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted May 26, 2011 01:19 PM
yep smoke from a campfire got me the worst.
and before somebody corrects me, I found this and stand corrected. I always was told and thought they were under the skin and like Tom said, a few time I though of getting knife out.
Chiggers do not burrow under your skin, as many people believe, nor do they feed on animal blood. They actually feed on the fluids in skin cells. To get the fluids, they attach themselves to a skin pore or hair follicle and inject a digestive enzyme that ruptures the cells. The enzyme also hardens the surrounding skin tissue, forming a sort of straw for sucking the skin cell fluids. The whole process irritates the skin, causing an itchy red bump that continues to cause discomfort for several days. Chiggers are only about 1/50th of an inch (0.5 mm) in diameter and so are too small to be seen with the naked eye. This invisibility is the reason so many people believe chiggers burrow under the skin.
[ May 26, 2011, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2011 02:14 PM
Are you sure they can't be seen? I thought I could see them crawling on wood railings? Are they orangy-red fuzzy little things? Maybe Missouri chiggers are a bit larger? Very small, but not invisible?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted May 26, 2011 02:36 PM
I must be chigger proof. Murphy Love and I hunted south Texas a few years ago and he had the worst damn mess on his legs I ever seen. Bothered him for a couple weeks after we got home. Me, not a bite. And I damn sure don't want what he had.
Kinda like my old man told me once about the "clap". He said, "nope, son, I've never had it, And I fuckin sure don't want it again!"
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted May 26, 2011 02:48 PM
Clap and chiggers are two entirely different things... I've had lots of chigger bites and they are miserable! Don't even want to think about what the "Clap" might be like!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Here's some interesting reading about chiggers.
Chiggers!!!
Those were probably red spider mites you saw Leonard. Common on many house plants. They are nasty looking and very small but still about 10 times bigger than a chigger!
Nikonut
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted May 26, 2011 04:51 PM
Yeah, we got spider mites evrywhere round here. Walk thru a cottonfield here in summer and you will be covered in em. I grew up walking cottonfields pheasent hunting. Nasty.
Up here in the Sierras, ticks are super duper thick. If you stand in one place to long during turkey season, they will cover you up. NASTY! I hat ticks with a passion!
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted May 26, 2011 04:56 PM
spider mites don't feed on people but plant matter evergreens are the main target they suck the juices from the plant they have no in terest in humans.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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Cayotaytalker
DOES NOT TEACH/SUSPECTED OKIE
Member # 1954
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posted May 26, 2011 07:37 PM
I had a dose of chiggers one time I went to the health clinic. The doctor gave me a shot of penicillin they cleared right up.
I climbed a lot of trees that had posin ivy on them I never had any thing happen from it.
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Now thats prime coyote country!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 26, 2011 08:14 PM
That's interesting on the penicillin, asked lots of docs about a remedy for chiggers, none mentioned it. A good friend of mine is a doc and loves to fish. He hates chiggers as much as me so I'll sure ask him about it.
Sure you ain't mixed up with the clap? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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