quote:

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To be cost effective, it's my belief that the efficient use of aerial hunting needs to be heavily critiqued. "PREVENTATIVE" Aerial hunting with fixed wing aircraft needs to carefully consider both the time of year and the size area to be hunted relative to historic areas of predation. "Scorched earth" broad based aerial hunting of large open tracts of ground well away from areas of historic predation should not be encouraged simply based on the dynamics of coyote dispersion and spacial redistribution and the expense involved with aerial hunting. Broad based "scorched earth" aerial hunting during the prime fur season is not unlike throwing a starfish back in the ocean and believing that you somehow made a difference.

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I still have much bitterness towards the Nevada policies in which they spend the budget money because it is there, regardless of the fact that there is no stock in the area, but lots of coyotes. Open range BLM, National Forest, all public land. This really pisses me off.

There is a $5 fee included in all hunting licenses, specified for predator control. Nevada has a growing human population and although I don't know specifics, I think they have a lot of money at their disposal for predator control. Predator control in vast areas where no specific threat or problem exists. I think this is unjustified, in many parts of the state.

End of rant. ElBee
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 26, 2010, 05:09 PM:
 
Leonard,

I can't speak for Nevada's program or any other program for that matter but I will say that your response is exactly why I tread lightly DURING THE PRIME FUR SEASON and am careful not to fly any more ground than I believe is necessary to accomplish the mission.

I was a recreational fur harvester prior to my becoming an ADC trapper. My father is a recreational fur harvester. I will be a recreational fur harvester once again after I retire. I didn't and won't forget my roots.

Recreational fur harvesting is as legitimate a use of public land and wildilfe resources as running livestock and ADC work. I believe it's imperative that we find a balance between the two rather than killing coyotes during the prime fur season on a broad scale simply because we can.

There will be those who disagree with that approach but I will gladly compare livestock losses to back my views on the importance of time and location when removing problem coyotes.

Others,

Now I am well aware of the exceptions to the rule. If there is ewes being killed in the winter months or fall calves being killed, then ADC efforts have to be implemented accordingly.

I have seen WS programs in other states out hunting on public land, during the prime fur season, at the same time as a National Coyote Calling Contest. The aerial hunting conducted was on an actual sheep kill but I would have waited until the following week simply to avoid the inevitable conflict particularly when considering that these sportsmen and women are paying part of our salary.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that the way I do things now is always the way I have done them. At one time I didn't know any better than to sit on the hill and watch the plane fly either. Over the years I learned the importance of locating coyotes for the plane and now I have made it a priority.

Locating coyotes ahead of the plane not only involves spotting coyotes and getting them to answer you, it also involves scouring the area for fresh tracks and fresh sign prior to aerial hunting to determine the direction of coyote travel. Many times this search for sign precedeeding the aerial hunt makes spotting and locating the morning of the hunt more effective due to the elimination of non productive real estate.

Any ADC hand starting out would be well advised to spend time with the ADC men that worked the area before them. This can lead to a faster learning curve on where coyotes can be expected to den based on historical dennig areas. The time I spent with retired ADC hands was time well spent.

Although I don't have a good set of dogs currently, the value of a good dog cannot be understated. Due to the mange in my previous district, I didn't start another set of dogs as my dogs grew too old to work. I recently purchased a couple pups and will be starting them again. The value in a good set of dogs is
in locating trap locations, finding crippled coyotes, working coyotes out of the brush under the plane and decoying coyotes around den sites.

On the timeliness of aerial hunting, with sheep operations, I believe the perfect time to start is around the first of February. As you get closer to denning time (around May 1st), the possibility of different coyotes moving in is reduced.

I have put a lot of time and thought into the topic of timeliness in the removal of problem coyotes. I am well aware that coyotes can den as early as late March and pup well into June. With that in mind, migration and spacial redistribution into void areas will adjust accordingly.

For the sake of argument, let's just assume all coyotes are bred the last week in February and pup the first week of May.

When reviewing my records, I was surprised to see that some of the areas I worked in January that were flown again in February, showed only 50% of the January take. Now I realize there is more variables involved here such as coyote movement activity, visibility, snow cover vs. patchy snow, etc. etc. but I was still surprised with those results. I expected to shoot just as many coyotes in February as I did in January due to the coyote dispersal and spacial redistribution that is still occuring.

Not to contradict what I have said previosly but I only started in January because I was requested by cattlemen that have had previous problems and the receational hunting had slown down by that time. By removing the older adult coyotes in these areas, it would reduce the chance for problems later even though these voids would be quickly filled by younger dispersing coyotes. Unfortunately, most cattlemen are concerned with the number of coyotes they see rather than the age of those coyotes. In addition, the coyotes really become visible as they pull into the calving pastures as cows start calving. This usually results in another phone call from the rancher and another aerial hunt.

I have probably witnessed as many legitimate calf kills as any ADC hand can. My peak was 52 verified calf kills in one year. As mange increased, the numbers of calf kills decreased. There are cowboys that will swear up and down that coyotes will not kill calves. Just the same, there is cattlemen that will experience calf kills virtually every year. Poor management often gets the blame but that is seldom the case. What I have found is that the cattlemen who start calving earlier than their neighbors tend to pull coyote in from miles around. MANY legitimate calf kills will be the result of a family group of coyotes that will include 2 or more mature coyotes as well as yearling coyotes with the courage to take on a calf while the cow tries to defend it. One other factor that plays a part in who will have coyote problems and who won't is how comfortable the area is for coyotes to sneak in and out without being harrassed by people or livestock. Those who calf in rough breaks will encourage more coyote predation all other things being equal.

In determining legitimate calf kills from calves that died of natural causes there is numerous signs to look for. First, when calves are killed by coyotes, you will see blood in the kill area. Calves that are born dead will have coagulated blood that is found in the area of the dead calf only. The presence and distribution of blood in the area is a key sign. Another sign is the soft cartilidge (sp?) nipple on the hoof of a new born calf. If that nipple is still present, the calf never made it to it's feet. If the cartilidge nipple is missing, the calf was on it's feet. If the calves tongue is swollen, it was obviously a difficult birth which may have resulted in a dead calf. Sometimes you can tell by the behavior of the cow. If the cow is lathered up and in a frenzy from fighting coyotes, that can be a sign. If the cow was nursed, that is a sign of a live calf. If the cow doesn't show much interest, the calf was probably born dead. It seems cows show more interest in their calf if it had shown signs of life.

Of all these signs to help seperate a legitimate kill from a calf that was born dead and consumed by coyotes, blood is the most important to look for.

Considering the "opportunistic' behavior of coyote predation, here are some of the legitimate calf kill situations I have witnessed that resulted in verified kills:

1. A cow that wandered off to the far corner of the pasture to calf by herself far from other cattle. This presents an opportunity.

2. A set of twins. This presents an opportunity.

3. Adverse weather during calving. This creates an opportunity.

4. A cow that leaves her calf away from the herd while she goes for food and water. This presents an opportunity.

5. The first cows that calf in the spring. This usually presents an opportunity. As more cows calf there is more natural food available and more cows on the guard.

Getting back to the timeliness of aerial hunting. As stated previously, for the sake of argument, let's assume all coyotes are bred the last week in February and pup in the first week of May.

This is how I would value the effectiveness of aerial hunting in reducing the number of coyotes that move back into an area.

Feb. 5th - 40%
Feb 12th - 45%
Feb 19th - 50%
Feb 26th - 55%
Mar 5th - 60%
Mar 12th - 65%
Mar 19th - 70%
Mar 26th - 75%
Apr 2nd - 80%
Apr 9th - 85%
Apr 16th - 90%
Apr 23rd - 95%

Now please don't anyone etch this in concrete because I already admitted to the fact that coyotes don't all breed the last week in February and pup in the first week of May. In addition, there are factors that vary from area to area that can change this. There is also some denning areas that are so perfect that coyotes removed in April can be replaced by late puppers in May. I know there is many exceptions but I am going to stick my neck out far enough to say this is fairly close in many situations.

Anyone have any additional comments on increasing the effectiveness of aerial hunting?

What do you think of my time value chart?

~SH~

[ September 26, 2010, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 26, 2010, 05:59 PM:
 
Very interesting comments and data, Scott. I, for one, feel very fortunate that you share this information with the membership. It is food for thought even if not directly applicable to some hunters and their recreational activities.

Of course, I am of the belief that all coyote facts and information is useful, not just specific tips on how to work a stand and how to locate, etc.

When to fly. It would be nice if your opinions were shared by MOST agencies, but I think the attitude is to get a jump on the problem, in some cases.

You have given me a few things to think about; you are one heck of a seeker of truth, my friend.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by luckyjack (Member # 3462) on September 26, 2010, 06:19 PM:
 
I am finding it very interesting.

Thank you.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 26, 2010, 10:55 PM:
 
AY AY AY this is always a difficult one to discuss with anybody that is recreational and wants coyotes behind every bush.

First off Scott i wish you would have picked a different subject for the first. Naming aerial hunting as the first makes it look like it is the most important and first tool of choice. I know you didn't mean that to happen just an observation.

There is a lot of information so i will try to give MY POINT OF VIEW as best as I can.

MOST of my area is deeded acres. I do not frown upon my CATTLE ranchers letting someone else call anytime of the year except calving or when there is active killing going on. However some of them feel better and believe it will be quicker when the problems occur to have no one except myself out there chasing coyotes. SO on those ranches (which is most of them) keeping the recreational hunters in mind is nill for the most part. I'm not isolated my area is 75% signed up to have me take care predator issues. SHEEP ranchers is different i have sole rights and push it to be that way just for the simple fact that it is a headache from the get go without me wondering what the coyotes have been introduced to.

"Timely removal" as you call it can be up to debate on what someone thinks of the phase. I'm a firm believer in around CATTLE that age of coyote is a VERY big factor and NUMBER of coyotes is the second biggest factor. I'm not saying that a single coyote or pair of coyotes won't kill calves but the higher percentage of kills on CALVES i deal with is either a large group or a pair of older coyotes with a yearling or two.

So does flying that area when disperal is going on and you can catch groups of 3 and 4 and 5 coyotes in the area together and remove them not timely or should i wait until there is broken up pairs and singles? Hour for hour my bang for the buck may be in october and November with clean up on snares and m-44's until closer to calving and then another flight. Yes there will be more dispersal and coyote spacing but what if you are covering a ten mile radius due to other ranchers adjoing that one? How much dispersal into the area do you deal with...not much. Is that what you would call "scorched earth"? Watching your major disperal routes from adjoing areas can get you a long ways with removing the least amount of coyotes.

I'm on the same page as you with Calve kills I have seen plenty and anyone that wants to argue that coyotes won't kill calves hasn't been ranching long enough. Yes there is some practices that will help including not owning hiefers LOLLOL but you pretty well stated most of the scenerios i see for calving problems. However i do want to point out that when the calves hooves show it didn't get up what about the ones that get eaten as they came out? Or were "helped out"! LOL Most of the time they end up killing the cow also due to shock or eating on her hind end but as you said in those cases ususally the cow is pretty worked up.

Also your mission statement for ADC work is spot on.

On the point of aerial hunting on public ground with an ACTUAL KILL during a contest i believe is something that with your situation over there and where all your pay comes from decided your viewpoint. I'm in an area where the rancher himself pays for a good part of the service in a "predator fee" out of his own pocket so telling him that he is going to lose two more ewes this weekend so that you don't piss off the recreational guys isn't an option. And on that point our ranchers have a little more control over when and how much management they get. you don't call a plumber and have him say "well wiley it's going to cost $200 but your toilet still flushes... not good but it still flushes so i'm not going to do anything but i still need $200"

right?

As far as your time chart i don't have enough data in my area to give you a good answer on how those numbers are however i would agree they look good.

However when talking about removing them earlier than your dates you have seen as well as me that a good denning area will produce a large number of dens if you allow it. So removing coyotes earlier in the year and as they start to group for breeding will invaribly help with the amount of coyotes that are denned in that area. To make myself clear if an area is primo and will hold up to 6 dens if left alone but you work it hard in January and keep the numbers down then when the shit hits the fan you should only be dealing with a pair or two that was able to den in there correct?

December is a "goofy" time for coyotes however i have removed a number of coyotes in an area in december and was able get rid of the marginal denning areas and when i returned in late April only had two pairs denned in the most Primo denning pokets. I'm talking about a three ranch probably 12 mile by 3 mile area. Where if i had come later in the year with less favorable flying conditions i would have had coyotes paired up and ready to den in say 6-8 spots and may have to tackle them one at a time. It comes down to dollars and cents plain and simple. I was raised on good vehicle maintance goes a long ways. I would rather have all my ranchers happy as horseshit with little to no loss instead of being the hero that "solved the problem". I know that no loss in an area is unatainble but at least not the same guy year after year in CATTLE. If i was a rancher i wouldn't want to lose my predator fee every year in the one to three calves i lost i would rather spend it and lose nothing. I guess i look at it as a kind of insurance.

I would agree on the REAL GOOD denning pockets they are tough to keep clean i've had pairs pup as late as the second week in June in a good denning pocket on sheep.

I would agree also on the dogs i had a man that I respect very much with 25+ yrs in the bussiness tell me "you're only as good as your dogs in this bussiness!"

A good man on the ground will make the airplane look like a hero, a bad man on the ground will make the plane look like a waste of money!

On Sheep within 10 miles in every direction "scorched earth" plain and simple. If your program allows! ( Money, time, neighbors ect) no sharp teeth within 10 miles. I'm not saying that i'm accomplishing that but that is my view point on keeping the killing down.

Leonard i'm not sure on Nevedas situation but don't blame the trapper he is doing what he is told, if that is something you want changed i would go to the BLM or Forest service they wright the rules on when and how much we can protect the ranchers in there.

I have had the honor to study under two guys that have done this 25+ yrs plus my own time to come to my conclusions however I'm not close minded enough to say that there isn't a lot to learn still.

My two cents anyway
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 26, 2010, 11:16 PM:
 
I forgot to add that this topic is "debateble" at best just due to the fact that unless you have actually worked another guys area or you know everything about it (numbers of sheep vs cattle, kind of terrain, rancher mentality ect) you have no bussiness telling him how to run his program.

"you" doesn't mean you scott i mean anybody in general
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 26, 2010, 11:26 PM:
 
nd, my guess is that they are flying these areas that have no sheep and no cattle without responding to complaints. They are killing coyotes in high population areas that have very few ranches in close proximity, way over ten miles distant, in most cases.

I really think you have a selfish attitude in requesting that nobody else be allowed access so that your job is easier. No offense, of course, but I have a problem with exclusive access and locked gates.

And, I have a bigger problem with arial gunning public land that doesn't have any stock grazing on it, in December.

I've mentioned this before. IMHO, It's a shitty situation.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 26, 2010, 11:35 PM:
 
Leonard when it comes to sheep to be honest a guy that just wants to call in coyotes has plenty of places to go..... I mean honestly. I express my views to the rancher it is still HIS LAND if he wants to let someone else in there it's his perogative i just tell him it might mean another lamb or two in the spring. I tell them i would LIKE to have no one else calling or trapping the decision is still his.

Broad base flying on public land i'm not sure about although you might want to check with the nevada game and fish due to the fact that they have WS remove predators on a occasion to help public hunting land for mule deer or antelope herds. I'm assuming that you KNOW that there is not livestock is that because the ranchers can't be on public land after a certain date or because you don't "see' any livestock.

I know how you feel about the locked gates however with your backround and expierence i would think that after a 10 minute converstation with a rancher you are going to have no problem getting access to any private land to call.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 27, 2010, 04:27 AM:
 
WS does fly parts of Nevada for the protection of mule deer, bighorn sheep and other animals, even including sage grouse. I believe the air gunning is mostly for the deer though, as they concentrate more on lion removal for the bighorn and using poison eggs for the ravens to protect the sage grouse leks.

But the reason they give for most of the scorched earth flying on public land during fur season, is to clean out the coyotes before the sheep or cattle arrive in the spring.

I don't like it anymore than Leonard. But it is what it is.

The volume is down a little bit this year, too. Budget cuts. I think they lost some full time hands this year. I know at least one crew member is working the job of a full time specialist to make up some of the slack though. Heard supervisors are spending more time in the field to help too.

- DAA
 

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Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on September 27, 2010, 08:05 AM:
 
THANKS to Wily E and nd coyote killer for all their comments in reference to the taking of coyotes with their state and federal ADC programs. I was a trapper with the SD ADC program from 1977-92. Yes many stories could be told but Scott and Jamie are covering it well so far. Unfortunately the killing of coyotes is not going to keep everybody happy, but it was our job to reduce or prevent losses for these livestock producers. You would have no idea what goes on from day to day with the job of these guys until you have sat in their shoes for a day. I remember the nights of receiving phone calls from multiple ranchers who were experiencing calf or sheep kills and having to make a decision where to go the next morning. You sure weren’t going to keep everyone happy with that choice.

In terms of coyote birthing, one of our old time trappers told me that an average date for coyotes giving birth to their pups was the 10th of April and 10th of May was when the pups would first be brought up out of their dens.

Enough said for now.

[ September 27, 2010, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 27, 2010, 08:36 AM:
 
Steve your input on this discussion would be a great benefit with your time in the field and expierence.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 27, 2010, 10:38 AM:
 
Yes, I agree, Steve. Anything you care to add, day to day workload, unusual events, notable failures....anything of interest.

As far as Scott and his views on policy, I'd like to hear a lot more about how we can work together and satisfy all, stockmen, ADC specialists, recreational hunters and the public.

Good hunting. LB

PS, thanks to Dave for backing me up on the goings on, in Nevada. Killing lions to enhance the mule deer harvest? Boy, there's a good one!
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 27, 2010, 03:41 PM:
 
Just to keep from any confusion my name is not Jamie.
 

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Posted by highwayman (Member # 3656) on September 27, 2010, 03:55 PM:
 
interesting topic...ADC stuff

couple of thoughts regarding exclusivity

hunting private land and wanting to know who and when someone else maybe hunting the ranch is important out here

-if somethin gets broke or God forbid someone's livestock gets shot i don't want the rancher callin wonderin who it was and for that reason i call and leave a message everytime i enter someone else's property...i re-describe my vehicle and tell em how many folks in my party (if any)
i do this in advance in case the ranch is out workin cattle or there is any other reason i shouldn't be on the ranch that day

-i do have access to a few places where there is a trapper...and he is makin a livin of sorts off his pelts (i don't currently take furs) so...i arrange a drop off spot that he checks almost daily while runnin his traps (for animals i have left for him)
last year...one of these ranches allowed some contest hunters to enter his ranch and they shot some trapped animals and removed em
i got a call from the trapper who wanted to know if i knew who did it (i just happened to run into the contest guys)
not that i am a great predator hunter by a very long stretch
but i have a lot of respect for the rights these property owners are givin me and that makes me a good hunter
(some aren't...and can really screw it up for others)
it's the ranchers decision to let others hunt his land and mine to not hunt there then

land that is accessed by a guide service ???
i wouldn't hunt that land/ranch WITH permission
anyone who says they're bringin out folks that have never shot a predator before (often at night)
and isn't as LIGIT as possible... with years and years of experience teachin hunter safety (not just killin stuff) and with complete liability...well...that is not an area i want to be in
there are some VERY ligit services around
and for many of the reasons listed above they have a lock on that ranch
not just cause they want more coyotes to kill
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 27, 2010, 09:44 PM:
 
Steve that is Brad "ND coyote Killer". I do not want to jump to far into this. ND and myself often talk about the differences we have from each other in our own counties and we have only a county seperating us. interesting discussion. I often have guys wanting to come with and go calling with me.....I typically do not let them bring a gun........even some of my ranchers on there own property. If you miss you get to go on to the next township and call in another with little to no thought about that missed coyote ever again....I got to get up the next day and go get it. This is what I do day after day. When I get the call that the ranchers son, or brother in law, hired hand....seen a coyote out the window of the truck and emptied the clip on his gun and may have winged it.........the next thing out of his mouth is "So what do you think we should do now" Translation: "we" in the ADC world always means "you". I have at times in certain situations been known to say "I don't care what you do with that coyote, there not my sheep" translation: quite F'n with the coyotes. I can't tell you how impossible, time consuming and expensive this can become when you have to competition hunt your coyotes on livestock. It's a time and money issue for the ADMB, local predator board, and the Wool growers association. Nevada has to consider the amount of money brought in by out of state big game hunters. I know one of the specialists in Nevada who hunts coyotes on Deer herds. the animals in the western states are a commodity that is owned and managed by the states. Predators; specifically in this day and age it is the coyote that gets all the blame. Even if he is not always the guilty party. trust me the badgers, eagles, red fox, and bobcats all take there share of sheep. Bobcats can take deer and antelope when ever they get the notion to target them. I have seen predator boards shut off control work on ranches that do not work within what is considered exceptable practices for manageing predators. You can not let every tom, dick, and harry on the property to call snare and trap your coyotes and then come calving or lambing expect the WS to park the plane in thier driveway for the next 2 weeks trying to clean up the mess. When you have other ranches that have a locked gate mentality were do you owe your time and the predator boards resources? The ranch with all the "help" is not a priority. If he has killing and I have no other issues I am all over it but if there are other fires it may be awhile before I get there. I will tell him to call one of his buddies and get him out there when it is 95+ and 30 mph winds. Have him clean up the pegged legged and pinched toed coyotes. ON one ranch last year I took 3 peg legged coyotes and 2 with snares on them. That is more than I took off the rest of the county the whole summer. They trap, snare, and call all winter and come spring I get suck with trying to get the ones they screwed up. I know that is the job but...You just can not spend the amount of time required to clean those sort of issues with out pissing off the other ranchers who are also expecting help. sorry for the ramble and off subject comments. great posts scott and Brad.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 27, 2010, 10:59 PM:
 
I see where you guys are coming from. There doesn't seem to be any way recreational hunters and ADC men can coexist?

However, we don't set traps and snares, so if that is happening on a ranch, that's where the rancher needs an education, provided by his ADC man.

I can't see much of a conflict with recreational fur hunters in Nov and Dec, maybe January, on cattle ranches? We can't guarantee that we are going to kill every last coyote that comes to the call, but who can? I generally see a lot more than I kill, or even shoot at.

Scott was the same way when I hunted with him. He said to let him shoot first because he can't blame anybody else for a missed coyote. I guess you ADC gents are under a lot of pressure and it's no game, it's serious business.

I actually like to hunt around cattle. Coyotes hang around cattle all the time, not just calving.

Well, carry on.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 28, 2010, 06:34 PM:
 
Interesting for sure, a few years ago I got a call from a guy who had referred me to his neighbor who was having some problems. I went out to meet him and look around. I know nothing about ADC work, I just like to call coyotes.

I know the govt trapper and figured I would let the trapper do his thing and then go in and try to keep the numbers down when he was through. I ran into the trapper a few days later and told him of my plans and he said go ahead and call it, he was using other methods and I wouldn't bother him a bit.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 28, 2010, 07:16 PM:
 
That is the same response I get from my local trapper also Tom.
He just wants them dead.

I have no problems with ADC men. They get coyotes I can't.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 28, 2010, 07:32 PM:
 
Great examples guys. Are we talking cattle or sheep?
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 28, 2010, 08:14 PM:
 
My guess would be cattle;very few sheep operations(of larger scale) here in OK. This is for one reason due to our climate. Sheep have numerous health issues in warmer, wetter climates.
This brings up a few points I have been thinking about. As I mentioned, our climate is different from that of SD, ND, Wyo etc. We have alot fewer days sub freezing, a higher average rainfall, and thus a longer growing season. I saw a statistic that listed 68% of the states cow herd is fall calvers. Here, that means from august thru october is when the calves are hitting the ground. Also, our spring calvers here are generally from february thru april.
The reasons I mentioned this is in regards to something Scott said in regards to the timing of ADC work. Our fall calving cows will calve during a time when there are low energy requirements, and a very high prey population. Predation on fall calving cows is rare in my experience here(ran 1800 mother cows for 8 years). Even our spring calvers would come at a time when there is still a large availability of prey(average year) due to our milder climate and greater amounts of rainfall.
All that said, there are a few ranches here that are aerial gunned every year regardless. I know these ranches, I know the cowboys and I know the owners. They would be hard pressed to show an example of coyote depredation on cattle, especially since one of them runs primarily stockers. I don't have a problem with our trapper, and I consider him a friend. He has lined up trapping and hunting permission for me in the past. My question is why throw money at a problem that may not exist, or in other words, is the cost of the cure, much larger than the cost of the problem. To me , beavers, and of course hogs cause greater economic losses to the ag community here than do coyotes. And since I mentioned economics, a booming deer herd can cause greater economic losses to cattle ranchers than many would suspect. Especially if one were to consider the losses or expences incured due to lepto and vibrio being spread by deer populations.
Just a little devils advocacy....maintain!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 28, 2010, 09:55 PM:
 
Yes, cattle.

Here we have some problems with coyotes and calves but not what most believe. Still problems or not, when they get the chopper, they call as many landowners as they can and do a fly-by. Kill em all, ya know.

Hogs are a major problem and getting worse. A man could probably go into business removing hogs and get rich.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 28, 2010, 10:07 PM:
 
CrossJ: I have zero fall calvers so i can't say much about that aspect but i have talked to trappers that say it can me a headache to the 9th degree with larger groups of coyotes running around. I agree that the other critters you mentioned can cause a severe amount of damage. In most places that they do the trapper just specializes in those critters I know texas has a large hog program due to the economic stress on the ranchers down there. I'm not sure about OK but calve depredation has been documented up here over and over and over and over again. It's not debateble it's fact.

Leonard: you can call on my ranches anytime you want!!! I just don't want every swinging dick with a e-caller letting it blare from the truck window and shooting as soon as they break the 300yd barrier. It's not about making my job easier it's about saving the rancher money by getting the killing stopped sooner. Dollars and cents plain and simple.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 28, 2010, 10:46 PM:
 

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It's not debateble it's fact.

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Leonard: you can call on my ranches anytime you want!!!

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You got a deal, Amigo!
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 29, 2010, 07:04 PM:
 
Let me know when you are arriving!
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 30, 2010, 05:19 AM:
 
I appreciate your comments Cross J since I know you are both a rancher and a recreational coyote hunter.

I'll go out on a limb here. Straight up, if most predator (coyote, NOT WOLF) control programs THAT I AM FAMILIAR WITH were protecting only cattle (not including wolf programs, wildlife protection, sheep protection, prairie dog control, or beaver complaints, they would be hard pressed to justify an ADC program from a cost/benefit standpoint.

If I take a historic look back at the calf kills I have worked, if CATTLE PROTECTION was the only ADC work I did, the program would have been further ahead to pay the ranchers for these losses. Even at 100 head (double my worst year at $400 per calf (Livestock Indemnity Program reimbursement value) you are talking $40,000. Currently, it costs our program about $68,000 to keep a man in the field (salary, benefits, vehicle expense, equipment, etc). The 100 calf loss figure (double the verified loss) would consider the losses I prevented by removing the offending coyotes, CONSERVATIVELY. It still would not be enough to justify an ADC trapper.

You have to look at the big picture. Cattle, sheep, suppressed wildlife populations in recovery mode, prairie dog work, and in our state beaver damage. Incidentally, we have as much or more damage in this state caused by beavers than we do by coyotes. Statewide I believe we work as many beaver complaints as we do coyote complaints. When you look at the big picture of all the species we deal with, the cost/benefit ratios become much wider.

There have been numerous studies done to show how coyotes can keep suppressed mule deer and antelope populations from recovering. TYPICALLY (if there is such a thing), coyotes will have a lot of antelope and deer within their home range and deer and antelope will drop their fawns and kids in a relatively short period of time. In MANY (not all) situations, the mule deer and antelope populations will be much higher in a given area than the coyote population for that same area. So based on that, within a healthy mule deer and antelope population, coyote predation USUALLY won't have too much impact. Now if you stress that deer or antelope population so the coyote numbers in a given area are closer to the antelope and deer numbers you will definitely see a benefit to those deer and antelope populations through predator control efforts. This is precisely why some of the western states incorporate wildlife protection into their ADC efforts. To be cost effective, these really should target specific areas at specific times of the year such as 30 - 60 days prior to fawn or kid drop.

I have also seen studies from Wyoming where you had a large concentration of antelope in a certain area and the coyote population for the same area was also high, for whatever reason, so the impact to THAT antelope population was more significant than normal.

You really have to be careful with the arguments about predator control benefitting mule deer and antelope populations because some areas could use more coyote predation since the doe harvest is inadequate resulting in all kinds of winter deer depredation problems as well as excessive antelope populations ruining fences. We simply haven't been able to shoot them down in some areas to a sustainable population. In those high populations you have winter die offs that the coyotes could have consumed. Predation in that situation becomes compensatory mortality rather than additive mortality.

I can argue both sides of this real easiliy based on the differences from one situation to the next. You just can't paint with a broad brush when talking about wildlife protection.

You also hear ranchers say all the time, "I like having coyotes around to keep the rabbits and mice under control". Baloney! Coyotes do not affect mouse and rabbit populations in MOST situations because coyote home ranges usually have far more rabbits and mice within them than they can ever consume. Many studies have been done to show that prey affects the predator populations, not visa versa. The more rabbits and mice you have in a given area, the smaller the coyote home ranges can be ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

The mainstay of most ADC programs is sheep operations where predation is going to be high if problem coyotes are not removed.

I am not familiar with your situation in Oklahoma as to why you would have so many fall calvers but yet so little predator problems. My best guess, without knowing for sure, would be that there is enough other food sources available that are easier to obtain than getting chased around by cattle.

~SH~

[ September 30, 2010, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 30, 2010, 06:16 AM:
 
First off Brad, I want to assure you that I am very familiar with most of the variables that can be expected to change from one trapper district to the next. My views reflect those differences.

Just to name a few, Public land vs. private land, large or small private land holdings, coyote population in that and surrounding areas, accessability, prey availability, human disturbance factors, number of complaints and other job responsibilities, how spread out the complaints are, topography and cover that necessitates more or less ground control, size district, miles traveled, non target animal possibilities, guard dogs, good woven fences vs. barbed wire, weather and soil issues affecting accessibility, commercial hunting operations, livestock management practices in that area, predator district techniques being employed in same area, etc. etc.

I doubt you can throw many variables at me that I have not seen. Those variables will certainly affect what techniques will be most effective but there is usually more than one way to skin the same cat.

BT: "Naming aerial hunting as the first makes it look like it is the most important and first tool of choice."

I chose aerial hunting first since it usually constitutes the highest number of coyotes taken within most ADC programs.

BT: "I'm not saying that a single coyote or pair of coyotes won't kill calves but the higher percentage of kills on CALVES i deal with is either a large group or a pair of older coyotes with a yearling or two."

Exactly! That's what I have seen too. In MOST situations it's an older pair with yearlings.

I want to elaborate on the calf situation a little. You are correct that "timely" removal can be more difficult to define with cattle than it is with sheep for a number of reasons.

First, most calf problems I have seen are in Feb. and March before the coyote shuffle slows down.

Second, you have two problems here. First is the LEGITIMATE problem of mature coyotes and the yearlings within that family group that are familiar with the area and confident enough to kill calves. You also have a PERCEPTUAL problem of the coyotes that gather in these calving areas from miles around AFTER calving starts. So even if you address the LEGITIMATE problem by removing the mature pair and family group prior to calving, you are still probably going to have to address the PERCEPTUAL problem of the rancher seeing lots of coyotes in the calving grounds once calving starts. Coming back is just easier than trying to explain to the rancher the differences in problems between the territorial adults you removed and the dispersing pups that moved in behind them. Basically, your best bet comes down to getting in there right before calving and knocking them out and then coming back, if you have to, and removing the coyotes that will inevitably take their place.

I had certain guys, based on when and where they calved, that had problems every year but the vast majority of my calf complaints were isolated opportunistic incidents and you took them as you got them.

As you know if this cattle operation happens to be within 8 miles of a sheep operation you can get a huge secondary benefit from the removal of those coyotes later in the spring.

BT: "Yes there will be more dispersal and coyote spacing but what if you are covering a ten mile radius due to other ranchers adjoing that one? How much dispersal into the area do you deal with...not much. Is that what you would call "scorched earth"? Watching your major disperal routes from adjoing areas can get you a long ways with removing the least amount of coyotes."

Ok, lets assume you are talking about spring (Feb and March) calving operations miles away from any seep. I don't see any benefit to removing coyotes on those cattlemen prior to 2 - 3 weeks prior to calving simply due to how much immigration and spacial redistribution that occurs after that time. If I remember correctly, one of the large ear tag studies done in either Montana or Wyoming showed an AVERAGE coyote dispersal of 25 miles. My time chart, although not perfect for every situation, shows how much immigration and spacial redistribution you can expect well into April.

Any coyotes you remove prior to just before calving will be replaced necessitating that you remove them too. So why not remove all the coyotes from the area when it will do the most good?

Once again, it all comes down to the livestock losses in the end. If I can kill the territorial adults and the local dispersers just prior to calving, the LEGITIMATE problem has been addressed and the PERCEPTUAL problem has been reduced because by the time the dispersers I removed are replaced, calving will be on the home stretch with plenty of afterbirth and colostrum manure for these coyotes to eat. The legitimate problem is over.

When I refer to "scorched earth" I am referring to the ideology that you have to kill all the coyotes in a given area at any time of year. I don't buy that logic. That's simply playing to the PERCEPTUAL problem.

February through August is the time to make hay. September through February I address kill complaints as I receive them. Killing a coyote in December in most areas is like throwing a star fish back in the ocean and thinking you made a difference when you consider all the immigration that will occur between then and Feb.

A few years back I did an indepth coyote population estimate of the district I worked. I broke down the geographical areas by river breaks, upland prairie, predator control areas, badlands, crop land, etc. etc. and assigned a coyotes per square mile figure to them (maximum fall population and spring estimate). I used historic aerial hunting observations and population estimates from numerous studies as my base. I figured 60% of the females bred with an average litter size of 5.5 pups per litter. When I was killing 550 coyotes per year by all methods in that district, based on my figures I was only removing 8% - 10% of the total estimated coyote population in that area and you have to remove 70% of the population to maintain it. The concept of controlling the coyote population is laughable when you consider the 25 mile average dispersion factor. If you push a pencil to it you can see how ridiculous the concept is to think you can control the coyote numbers in a 5000 - 6000 square mile area. It's not going to happen and the aerial hunting records have proven it time and time again as did coyote dispersion into the Eastern United States in the late 70's and early 80's.

Effective predator control is all about timing.

The best example I can think of was West of Pierre a few years back when they flew and shot over 100 coyotes in a day in January. 2 weeks later they hunted the same area and shot over 100 more coyotes. It's all about timing.

BT: "However i do want to point out that when the calves hooves show it didn't get up what about the ones that get eaten as they came out? Or were "helped out"!"

That's correct. I have seen that too. In that situation you once again look for the blood.

BH: "I'm in an area where the rancher himself pays for a good part of the service in a "predator fee" out of his own pocket so telling him that he is going to lose two more ewes this weekend so that you don't piss off the recreational guys isn't an option."

Let me give you an actual example. A couple of ranch buddies of mine entered a coyote calling contest. Both of them are excellent coyote callers and both have requested my services on their calving operations in the past when they were too busy calving to take care of it themselves. They scouted the area around a sheep operation on PUBLIC LAND and had located 3 family groups of coyotes in close proximity to the sheep. They were pretty pumped about their chances. They paid good money for themselves in the calcutta. As the sun was rising on the first day of the contest they had 3 coyotes running to their stand. Before these coyotes could get into rifle range, they were spotted and shot by the local WS plane which then proceeded to shoot the other 2 family groups they had located. Now think about that.

What's it worth to not wait a day? I wouldn't have done it on private land let alone PUBLIC LAND. The bad PR would not be worth it to me. Everyone at that contest heard about it and it didn't reflect very well on WS even if they felt they were justified due to verified losses at the time. When you consider this was public land you have to consider the multiple use concept of that land.

Two days would not have made the difference.

Here's what can happen. If those coyote hunters happened to be a local cattle rancher that happened to border one of your sheep guys that you needed access from and he said "to hell with you" the next time you asked permission, was the gain worth the cost? I don't think so.

If I know a contest is going on, I'm going to wait if at all possible but that's just me.

There's lots more to discuss as time allows.

Gotta run for now!

~SH~

[ September 30, 2010, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 30, 2010, 06:50 AM:
 
Hi Steve! Hope everything is going better than expected. Nice to hear from ya.

Steve bordered me for a number of years and he's a top ADC hand.

~SH~
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on October 01, 2010, 09:50 PM:
 

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The best example I can think of was West of Pierre a few years back when they flew and shot over 100 coyotes in a day in January. 2 weeks later they hunted the same area and shot over 100 more coyotes

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If I remember correctly, one of the large ear tag studies done in either Montana or Wyoming showed an AVERAGE coyote dispersal of 25 miles.

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September through February I address kill complaints as I receive them.

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If I know a contest is going on, I'm going to wait if at all possible but that's just me.

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I'll go out on a limb here. Straight up, if most predator (coyote, NOT WOLF) control programs THAT I AM FAMILIAR WITH were protecting only cattle (not including wolf programs, wildlife protection, sheep protection, prairie dog control, or beaver complaints, they would be hard pressed to justify an ADC program from a cost/benefit standpoint.

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I had certain guys, based on when and where they calved, that had problems every year but the vast majority of my calf complaints were isolated opportunistic incidents and you took them as you got them.

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"I like having coyotes around to keep the rabbits and mice under control". Baloney! Coyotes do not affect mouse and rabbit populations in MOST situations because coyote home ranges usually have far more rabbits and mice within them than they can ever consume.

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I chose aerial hunting first since it usually constitutes the highest number of coyotes taken within most ADC programs.

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It doesn't need to be with proper maintance done and using the airplane only when you can't keep up with kill complaints or when the conditions make more cost effective to get the same job done. Last year i was 50/50 between ground and airplane.

The topic was how to run a EFFICTIVE animal damage control program. This is only my opinion on how I TRY to run mine.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on October 02, 2010, 04:56 PM:
 
NDCK: "So your ranchers don't have an issue if you haven't had any "kill complaints" that you don't work for this time period?"

There's no trouble staying busy during the Sept. - Feb. time frame. In my former district, in most years, I had plenty of beaver complaints and that's the time of year when beaver do most of their damage. In addition, we had prairie dog work to do. I would keep some equipment on my sheepmen to remove any adults that might cause problems with ewes but those same coyotes would be removed later regardless.

As you mentioned, we also have snares to make, shells to reload, traps to treat, etc. etc.

Although I will admit that when the mange took a widespread toll on the coyotes and the drought pushed the beaver into the major rivers, I could have been busier. Currently, I have more work than I can handle effectively.

Since the restructuring of our program, we are now responsible for deer, elk, antelope, turkey, and goose depredation problems as well as participating in numerous game surveys (many of which are done along our ADC routes). A lot of the big game damage work occurs in the winter months.

I know your situation is much different since yu don't have these other duties.

NDCK: "I disagree the anit's have tried this tactic with wolf depredations. The major problem with this is to keep fraud to a minimum they have to be VERIFIED kills. I have looked through a few studies that looked into depredation and verification in different terrains. Some terrain they came up with finding 70% of the kills in time to "verify" them others as low as 20%."

I'm sorry, I should have worded that better. You are exactly right about the problems with reimbursement and fraud and I realize that. The bounties proved the problems with fraud years ago. I'm just saying, for the sake of this discussion that I don't believe ADC programs based only on cattle protection would be cost effective from a cost vs. benefit standpoint. Now if another ADC district in another state has experienced calf kills far in excess of what I am used to, I would love to learn about it.

Let me try this again.....

"...if most predator (coyote, NOT WOLF) control programs THAT I AM FAMILIAR WITH were protecting only cattle (not including wolf programs, wildlife protection, sheep protection, prairie dog control, or beaver complaints), and "IF" ALL losses could be verified positively (which we know they can't) and "IF" fraud was not an issue on reimbursement for losses (which we know it is) they would be hard pressed to justify an ADC program from a cost/benefit standpoint for cattle protection only."

Sure riddled that full of disclaimers didn't I? LOL!

As mentioned, I realize most ADC programs would be dealing with more problems than cattle, I also know reimbursement doesn't work due to fraud, and I agree that verification of all kills is difficult. We agree on all those points.

NDCK: "The guys (Cattle men only) that had problems every year when i got here don't anymore in large part because i keep maintance work on them."

I did the same thing when I worked the Kadoka district.

Let me rephrase this too......

"I had certain guys, based on when and where they calved, that WOULD HAVE HAD problems every year HAD I NOT WORKED THEM but the vast majority of my calf complaints were isolated opportunistic incidents and you took THOSE COMPLAINTS as you got them."

There, that's better.

If I think back to those high calf complaint years (pre-mange), I would guess that out of 25 calf kills, 10 were reoccurances and 15 were isolated incidents. Those that WOULD BE chronic problems every year, based on where and when they calved and their history of complaints, were worked every year. Those that could be flown were flown (open country), those that were in rough country were worked from the ground.

In addition, of the 52 calf kills I had during that peak year, less than 10 complaints had more than 1 calf killed. Can't remember the exact numbers and don't have time to look them up.


NDCK: "This is my point i would rather keep my guys from EVER having problems if it was possible. Waiting for blood to be on the ground in my opinion is lazy (on cattle) if the size of your district allows."

In a perfect world, that would be great but it's not reality in many situations.

Lets use some real numbers here and I will show you how unrealistic that would be FOR MY FORMER AREA. Your area may be totally different.

My former district contained 5000 square miles of land. In that district I had 100,000 beef cows (USDA stats). Now let's say that the average sized herd in this area is 200 head. That's 500 ranches with 200 head. If I worked on 30 cattle ranches on a given year (new kill complaints and "request for service" based on historic complaints), I would have only worked on 6% of the total ranches. Let's take it a step further, with a peak year of 52 calf kills, that would be .05% of the total calves born.

If I did no work at all and if you could positively verify each legitimate calf kill (which I know is impossible) 100 calves killed by coyotes would still only be 1% of the calves born in this district.

I know you acknowledged that my situation was different than yours but do you see how unrealistic it is to think you can actually prevent any cattle losses with 5000 square miles and 100,000 head of beef cows? It's not going to happen.

Let's take this a step further and I will stand on these numbers because I put a lot of time into them.

5000 square miles x .5 coyotes per square mile PRE DENNING population. That's 2500 coyotes that need to be removed BEFORE CALVING AND AFTER THE DISPERSAL for total population control "IF" you had a fence around the district to prevent any more from coming back in. LOL!

Do you see how unrealistic coyote population control is when you deal in actual numbers? That's why I laugh when an ADC hand, outside of the large sheep producing counties, tries to convince others that they are controlling the coyote population in their areas.

Let's frame this debate once more with the facts:

1. Coyotes expanded into the eastern US at the peak years of fur value and the corresponding peak of persecution by all methods.

2. Average coyote dispersion is 25 miles in a study conducted in Mont. or Wyo.

3. ADC programs typically remove less than 10% of the maximum fall coyote population and you have to remove over 70% just to maintain it.

4. Coyote immigration and spacial distribution is intense and spurred by weather, hunting seasons, human disturbance, coyote population in surrounding areas, etc. etc. They quickly occupy the choice areas until they start locking into their denning areas.

Hence, the "throwing a starfish back in the ocean" analogy.

IT'S ALL ABOUT TIMING AND LOCATION

NDCK: "The thought process of having kills is job securtiy is plain and simple BULLSHIT!"

Be careful with that line of thinking!

I appreciate your goal of zero losses and I strive to achieve that with my sheep producers but it's not in the cards unless you have a very small district, a lot of time, and/or lots of good aerial hunting service in open country.

It's very unfortunate but a very harsh reality of this job is that IN MANY CASES (not all) we tend to be the only ones that fully understand the value of what we are doing. If SOME (not all) sheepmen have not experienced losses for a period of time, they start wondering why they are hiring a trapper since they're not having any losses AND YOU ARE THE REASON WHY!!!!!

Case in point, I had a sheep producer that told me how great his guard dog was and didn't seem to place any value on the fact that I killed the denning pair of coyotes in an adjoining pasture every spring before they had a chance to den. So I thought, OK, let's see how good your guard dog really is. I pulled my equipment and the very next spring he had killing. I called those coyotes up and shot them and he remembered why I was there. The attitude of "I don't know why I need a trapper since I'm not having any killing" is a harsh reality with this job WITH SOME PRODUCERS (not all) when you do too good of a job.

Now, I'm not saying that I try to allow some killing to occur to remind the producers of why I am there. There's usually enough that occurs despite our best efforts due to workloads. I'm just saying that if there wasn't any killing at all, there would be a percentage of the producers that would forget why you were there. Every veteran ADC man worth his salt can tell you the same thing.

NDCK: "If i had 52 confirmed calf kills in my area i would be in trouble."

Why? What trouble? Please explain.

I had 52 calf kills and I wasn't in trouble because there was no way to prevent it due to the size of district and number of cattle. I did my best to prevent problems in chronic areas and prevent further losses in the random complaints that trickled in. That was an extreme year. Most years I would have 10 - 20 calves killed until mange hit.

When mange hit this is how it went in consecutive years ....

52 calf kills
30 calf kills
25 calf kills
20 calf kills
7 calf kills
3 calf kills

Mange had quite an impact huh?

Not to boast for many good ADC men have done likewise and more, but rather to give you an idea of what I was facing for coyote numbers and workload, in the first 10 years of my former district, I averaged 545 coyotes per year and 2/3 of those were on the ground (mostly M-44s due to the logistics of the area).

In contrast, this past year I only took 20 adult coyotes on the ground. More importantly I only verified 2 lambs killed by coyotes. In contrast, we took about 100 coyotes by air and 4 dens on the sheep producers in 2 counties. This is with 50 hours of actual aerial hunting time.

My point for mentioning this? Do you see how misleading numbers can be without knowing all the variables behind them? I know you don't do this but only a fool would compare coyote numbers between ADC trappers without knowing all the variables behind those numbers.

There is number of reasons for such a low ground take this year. First, my current pilot and gunner do such an awesome job AT THAT CRITICAL TIME OF YEAR when I do my part of getting the coyotes located for them that there isn't many left to take on the ground. Also consider that I have a huge number of nuisance animal complaints to deal with and 42% of my time is spent on duties outside the realm of ADC work.

Show me an ADC man that takes large numbers of coyotes on his sheepmen after April 1st and I will show you an ADC man that isn't doing his job.

Slim Pedersen: "Large piles of dead coyotes means large piles of dead sheep"

Everyone should strive to work smarter than they used to, not harder.

When you consider the above figures, it would really be interesting to do a cost / benefit comparison between what it would cost to take those 100 coyotes on the ground vs. what it costs to take them by aircraft. I would bet a large sum of money that the best ADC trapper going could not remove those 100 coyotes on the ground as cheaply as we removed them from the air in 50 hours of flying.

As you can see, I have seen both extremes as far as coyote numbers but the only number that matters at the end of the day for me anymore is the number of dead livestock.

George Good: "Give us this day our daily coyote".

I love that slogan and what it means to real ADC men.

~SH~

[ October 03, 2010, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on October 02, 2010, 05:36 PM:
 

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Sure riddled that full of disclaimers didn't I?

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Do you see how unrealistic population control is when you deal in actual numbers?

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If SOME (not all) sheepmen have not experienced losses for a period of time, they start wondering why they are hiring a trapper since they're not having any losses AND YOU ARE THE REASON WHY!!!!!

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Why? What trouble? Please explain.

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George Good: "Give us this day our daily coyote".

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I know you acknowledged that my situation was different than yours but do you see how unrealistic it is to think you can actually prevent any cattle losses with 5000 square miles and 100,000 head of beef cows? It's not going to happen.

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More importantly I only verified 2 lambs killed by coyotes

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. Average coyote dispersion is 25 miles in a study conducted in Mont. or Wyo.

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You didn't see me say, EVERY COYOTE DISPERSES 25 MILES did you? The only reason I quoted the Montana or Wyoming study was due to how close to home it is.

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Here's a simple thought. It really doesn't matter how far coyotes disperse. What matters is the fact that they do. That is precisely why, ABSENT MANGE, we take the same numbers of coyotes out of the same areas in the spring of the year every year.

Would you want to dispute or discredit that?

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The Yellowstone study is worthless in terms of our job because it's an unexploited population which has no relevance to areas of exploitation.

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I'll go out on a limb here. Straight up, if most predator (coyote, NOT WOLF) control programs THAT I AM FAMILIAR WITH were protecting only cattle (not including wolf programs, wildlife protection, sheep protection, prairie dog control, or beaver complaints, they would be hard pressed to justify an ADC program from a cost/benefit standpoint.

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I had one sheep producer lose 26 lambs my first year ("unconfirmed") in the new district but they never checked their sheep and they never reported any losses until after the fact. I'm not going to be critical either since they both work other jobs. Due to the area, I am quite sure it was legitimate coyote predation. This area became a priority this year and their docking count came out this year.

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Here's a simple thought. It really doesn't matter how far coyotes disperse. What matters is the fact that they do. That is precisely why, ABSENT MANGE, we take the same numbers of coyotes out of the same areas in the spring of the year every year.

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Tim your area does not a have a county program at all so that is to be expected. They are waiting in line and packed in so they fill the voids as quick as you remove them.

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We do a good enough job so we don't have to have one.

If they are waiting in-line to fill the empty areas it must be the state line...
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on October 06, 2010, 01:01 PM:
 
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! Yep thats it Tim right on!
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on October 09, 2010, 05:57 AM:
 
CH: "My point is, that study did not say that. those are your words that you are taking out of context to support your views."

Well you and I must be reading different studies because the study I read had an average coyote dispersion distance of 25 miles. Nothing taken out of context. You need to do better than that to discredit what I write.

CH: "Yes I would. You maybe take the same number of coyotes out of the same area in the spring every year but I don't. I can provide you with any amount of data to support that statement."

Help me to understand this because it doesn't make any sense to me...

Did mange wipe your coyotes out?

Are you trying to suggest that coyotes do not disperse into the areas you are working in the spring and summer as if you have some magical coyote resistant fence around the area you are working??

Are you trying to suggest that you are set heavy enough around the areas you work to prevent them from moving in to certain areas?? I got past that mentality many years ago facing the reality of coyote immigration and spacial redistribution. That understanding led to the timeliness of coyote removal.

No matter how many prime fur coyotes you kill, you are still going to have to remove coyotes in February because a wall of equipment is not going to prevent immigration from occurring particularly when you are up to your ass in snow. In a district that is not too large to handle, I'll kill all the coyotes that need killing after February and I don't care where we are talking about either. The livestock losses will speak for themselves.

Don't tell me it won't work in another area either because coyote dispersion and spacial redistribution and the time of year it occurs is not specific to any predator control district UNLESS you have some variables associated with your area that are unique to your area. Again, please explain.

Now if you want to suggest that you need to remove coyotes during prime fur season to prevent ewes and fall calves from being killed, you just defeated your argument because most ewe and calf killing coyotes are mature coyotes, not young dispersing coyotes. If you have mature coyotes in your area, you are obviously not controlling the population or preventing immigration or your population would be young.

I don't care where you are in the continental United States, coyotes are shuffling all over from September through February. That's not debateable. There is many radio telemetry studies to support this fact. I don't care what ADC program you are talking about either, most ADC programs remove less than 10% of the estimated populations in those areas and you have to kill over 70% to maintain them simply based on the reproductive efficiency of coyotes. So no matter how many prime fur coyotes you kill, you are still going to have to work those areas from February on.

AGAIN, I worked an area of 5000 square miles which would have required the removal of 2500 coyotes in the spring to wipe out that population, IF YOU HAD A COYOTE PROOF FENCE AROUND IT. There is no man capable of doing that. The hardest working coyote hands I know would be hard pressed to break 1000 coyotes on the ground in a year when coyotes were as thick as fleas and only if they worked like a dog 24/7. The hardest working ADC men I know IN AREAS OF HIGH POPULATION (the quality of an ADC man is not ranked by coyote numbers taken) were killing around 700. Some claim more but that's another story.

I'm not saying there is no value in killing prime coyotes because any time of year you take a mature old coyote is beneficial, I'm just saying the value is mimimal in comparison to the removal of coyotes from February on due to their dispersion behavior UNLESS THEY ARE KILLING EWES, REPLACEMENT LAMBS, OR CALVES.

CH: "that is my point exactly...........if you do not have a control program in place you will have an unexploited population."

Coyote exploitation is not limited to ADC programs. What about deer hunters, antelope hunters, ranchers, recreational coyote hunters, fur trappers, snaremen, snowmobiles, greyhounds, etc. etc.???

These methods of harvest are not allowed in Yellowstone.

APPLES TO ORANGES!

CH: "You are hand picking facts that support you position but diregard any and all other information regardless of the source if it is contradictory to your beliefs. You are trying to speak in general terms that your views and methods of control would work in all areas."

No, I'm not hand picking facts. I'm stating many facts that support eachother.

On the topic of how recreational coyote harvest and ADC programs control coyote populations, there is one cold hard fact you will have to dispute to discredit what I have written and that is the fact that coyotes dispersed into the Eastern United States during a period of time when coyote exploitation was at an all time high in the west. Do you want to argue the record fur prices of the late 70's and early 80's? Do you want to argue the record harvests during those years by all methods imagineable? Do you want to argue the fact of when most of those Eastern states filled up with coyotes? This is all documented.

That fact alone proves that harvest has never reached a level to stop immigration from occuring. This is not debateable. I'm not handpicking this. It's a damn fact.

Here's another fact to consider. Mange is a factor in coyote overpopulation. That is not argueable. Consider how many areas of the United States have seen mange knock their coyote numbers down? The presence of mange also proves a lack of harvest by recreational hunters and ADC programs to knock those numbers down enough to keep mange out of the equation. Mange, distempter, and parvo had to do the job that ADC programs and recreational coyote hunters couldn't do and that was to knock the coyote population back.

Tell me, what facts have you presented that I have disregarded that are contrary to my "so called" beliefs? Now that is a "generalization".

You are simply going to have to trust me when I say that defending my views is not about being right, it's about being proven wrong SO I CAN LEARN SOMETHING. I'm challenging you to explain how prime fur harvest can prevent livestock losses later when you still have to clean these areas out after February.

I have no doubts that my views on timely coyote removal will work in other areas because those methods are being incorporated into most ADC programs and individual trapper districts and they are consistent with commonly understood coyote behavior. I've been at this a long time and I have associated with many others who have been at this a long time.

Don't take anything personal here, this is about learning and teaching, not about who is right and who is wrong.

I'm also waiting for the, "well you are just lazy" argument which would be like telling people they should walk to work instead of driving cars.

Remember the mission statement, "...in the most EFFICIENT and COST EFFECTIVE means possible..."

Here, let me give you a number of reasons for prime fur trapping that can be beneficial to ADC programs. Prime fur trapping can teach you where those dispersal locations are, it can teach you what methods work in your area, it can teach you which locations will catch the highest percentage of coyotes later. Again, I didn't say there was no value in prime fur trapping, I said the value of prime fur trapping is mimimal in comparison to coyote removal after February.

~SH~

[ October 09, 2010, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on October 09, 2010, 01:46 PM:
 

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Are you trying to suggest that you are set heavy enough around the areas you work to prevent them from moving in to certain areas?? I got past that mentality many years ago facing the reality of coyote immigration and spacial redistribution. That understanding led to the timeliness of coyote removal.

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Well you and I must be reading different studies because the study I read had an average coyote dispersion distance of 25 miles. Nothing taken out of context. You need to do better than that to discredit what I write.

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Coyote exploitation is not limited to ADC programs. What about deer hunters, antelope hunters, ranchers, recreational coyote hunters, fur trappers, snaremen, snowmobiles, greyhounds, etc. etc.???

These methods of harvest are not allowed in Yellowstone

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Now if you want to suggest that you need to remove coyotes during prime fur season to prevent ewes and fall calves from being killed, you just defeated your argument because most ewe and calf killing coyotes are mature coyotes, not young dispersing coyotes. If you have mature coyotes in your area, you are obviously not controlling the population or preventing immigration or your population would be young.

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Docking count came in 100% this year.

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I hope you are not planning to make an "apples to oranges" comparison between numbers of sheep within the trapper districts without knowing all the other variables we each face.

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No way possible to cover every ranch that ever had coyote problems without abusing trap checks.

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I don't have the study in front of me

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There is no comparison. If you are suggesting that the Yellowstone study proves what would happen if there was no exploitation, so what? There is exploitation everywhere it's allowed so the Yellowstone study is not relevant.

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It's this simple. If you have fall calves and ewes being killed, you have mature coyotes present. If you have mature coyotes present, your maintenance didn't get them or they would have been replaced with younger coyotes.

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I don't care how many coyotes you kill in Oct. - January, you are still going to have to cover these areas in March and April to thin them out.

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Are you trying to suggest that you are set heavy enough around the areas you work to prevent them from moving in to certain areas??

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No matter how many prime fur coyotes you kill, you are still going to have to remove coyotes in February because a wall of equipment is not going to prevent immigration from occurring particularly when you are up to your ass in snow.

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That fact alone proves that harvest has never reached a level to stop immigration from occuring

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I hope I didn't give you the impression that I wait for the phone to ring with sheep producers

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I hope you are not planning to make an "apples to oranges" comparison between numbers of sheep within the trapper districts without knowing all the other variables we each face.

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Coyote populations in Yellowstone are affected by wolves and natural mortality but not by man.

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CH: "I would agree that in some areas if not even the majority of areas, it is best to leave it alone and allow resident coyotes create a space for themselves and as they approach welping they will push other coyotes out of their territorial denning pocket. You can slide in and killing them, take the den and you will create a void in that area for some time."

BINGO! That's what I am talking about. It's all about timing. No better maintenance tool than an M-44 in front of a heavy wet bitch coyote.

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I agree totally after February. I don't care how many coyotes you kill in Oct. - January, you are still going to have to cover these areas in March and April to thin them out.

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Pile #1 is 360 fine tuned traps of your choice fully modified and adjusted to your specifications. Also enough disposable stakes, drag, and rebar stakes of your choice.

comment: checking 360 traps every day sounds like a lot of work?

Pile #2 is 500 snares built to your specifications and camo'd if you prefer.

comment: lacking lure or bait, I wonder if passive snares are a stand alone option?

Pile #3 is 500 M-44s, enough boxes of fresh cyanide and the best M-44 bait money can buy.

comment: this option combines the best features of pile #1 and #2; has bait/lure and is reliably lethal.

Pile #4 is a 6 year old well broke and dependable saddle horse complete with saddle, horse trailer, rifle scabbard, 2 well trained cur dogs, an accurate rifle of the caliber of your choice to fit in that scabbard, a years worth of handloaded ammunition, hand held calls, a bale of hay, and a bag of dogfood.

comment: not a bad choice, if unsure of other options

Pile #5 is a hot chick

comment: WINNER! 24/7 coyotes is BOR-RING!

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Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 11, 2010, 07:24 PM:
 
Questions;
(1) Is the Hot Chick a farm girl or is she from the city??

and

(2) Can she put up fur??
 

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Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on October 11, 2010, 07:56 PM:
 
alot of very intresting reading here. i havent been at it near as long as you guys, i've been in two different areas and it would be a different choice for this one then the one before. here, the snares, i can work coyotes, beaver, and hogs with them, if we are talking just coyotes still the snares, this area is just good snaring country, tall grass, alot of net wire and they work through most weather. to much weather to get the bang out of traps here, goes from mud to dust and back every week in the winter and spring seems like, can only run gas guns from oct till march, so no go on them. the gun and dogs make a close second but this isnt big country so the horse wouldnt be as helpfull as some places and the coyotes get called hard by alot of guys so alot times your calling to coyotes that have already been down that road. the last place i was is alot bigger and way more open, alot of locked gates so the call and gun would have been alot more benefit up there, but it was a big area and we could run gas guns yr round, alot of times you needed to be in alot of different spots at once so i would have to go with the gas guns up there if we have to pick just one
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on October 12, 2010, 06:40 AM:
 
NDCK: "Are we assuming that the new area is our area that we are working on right now? I'm wondering about the terrain? I guess i'm asking am i to assume that i just got dropped off in my current county so i have a reference on what kind of country i'm suppose to be working."

Good job, you passed the first test and that is not to assume what you are facing for terrain and other circumstaces.

Yes, we are going to assume you've just been dropped off in a clone of the area you are currently working.

It's not an easy choice is it?

Also have to be fair on the hot chick and provide more information. Rancher's daughter. Lived a very sheltered life. She is just starting to seek adventure. She can skin and flesh coyotes. Father is very protective. Last short-term boyfriend still walks with a limp and has double vision. Father can shoot a 3" group at a thousand yards. Father also sits on the local predator board and has big elk on his ranch. Better pass boys. LOL!

Leonard,

In rough country with a real long day setting only the best locations, a hard working trapper can cover about an average of 85 traps per day. Of course this would vary from area to area and from trapper to trapper but I think it's a pretty good average. 85 traps is a lot of work for most guys in a day. I know some guys that run more and a lot that run less. On a 3 day check that's 255 traps in the ground at one time. Extra traps for skunked up traps, coon shined traps, run over, out of adjustment, etc. etc.

Snares will be a stand alone product unless trapper provides lure and/or bait stations to pull coyotes into brush. Mostly for fence snares.

Most ADC men know that the effectiveness of M-44s starts to taper off as the vegetation starts covering them. Prior to that time, on the right locations with the right baits they are deadly on coyotes particularly wet bitches heavy with pup.

As an example, when I had a lot of coyotes in my previous district I used to average 235 coyotes per year on M-44s alone. Again, a lot of complaints to cover and a lot of coyotes at that time. Best day was 54 with an extended check. Remember one particular ranch where I set 8 M-44s. First check 8 pulls, second check 8 pulls and 3 repulls meaning the potential for 20 coyotes on a single ranch during spring calving with 8 M-44s on 3 checks had it occurred. Those days were fun but they were challenging. I didn't carry the extra bark at that time. Mange changed all that.

~SH~
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on October 12, 2010, 11:12 AM:
 
In my answer i'm assuming that we are dealing with predators ONLY.

My district is about 98% coyote and fox with some urban skunks thrown in. The different choices are based more on coyote work so i will assume that we are working depredation problems dealing with coyotes and fox only.

Snares: I do a lot of trail snaring but have so little woven wire it's not worth considering the fence snaring here. Snares would be a good choice due to length of checks and numbers to be run however you have to have the right terrain and can't run them in the livestock that is having the problem so i would throw that one out. Also once they make a catch their shot and then useless.

Traps: Due to trap check laws of 72 hours and maintance required with trash animals freeze and thaw, tough to run in with the livestock thats having problems, ect ect this one i would throw out. You are able to run them in any kind of terrain which is a plus however.

Horse, Gun and Dogs: Real good choice if you have a lot of big ground in back country, however you have to be there to handle every complaint one at a time. Also weather can put you out of commision for mulitple days if not a entire week where you have nothing in defense working for you. You are able to work in the livestock with the problems if need be but wind, rain, hard blowing snow ect ect can put a stop to you doing anything and then you're sitting at home while the problem persists. You can only work so many hours a day where equipment works for you 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Hot chick: I'm still on the fence of making this one number one i get to shoot big elk, get signed up with the predator board as a volunteer through her dad and she puts up my coyotes thats kind of a win win all around. LOLOL

M-44's: If I had to pick only one to use this would be it. You can run them in with the calves or lambs that are getting killed. 7 day check makes it possible to run more. Terrain has little effect on if and where you can set them. Fairly weather proof even if it's storming and your at home by the fire on HUNTMASTERS you have something working for you 24 hours a day. Traps get frozen down, snares cant get blown over. M-44's can be covered in snow drifts but setting them correctly will solve a lot of that (more weather proof). You are able to spread yourself out by handling mulitple complaints at one time and possibly solving multiple complaints in the same day. They do have some down times of the year however the times of the year where they generally work the best is during the same times that you have the most issuses with the livestock.

Whick selection included gas cartidges for denning scott?

I don't believe anyone should use any ONE of the tools but use them all in different situations however for conversations sake this is the one tool that i would use if i had to pick just ONE.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on October 12, 2010, 02:12 PM:
 
But what about a long winter with a ton of snow that doesn't break until april? could mean futile effort with m-44's. Snares good all around tool for trails and crawl unders but in some areas they are hopping the fence or poor fence and trailing conditions, then the traps would shine the best. Traps can be the most versitile as one can use many set types and lures and can be at times the only way to get rid of a coyote that needs removed. Calling can be the quickest way to end a complaint at times of the year, but high winds and very open country tougher.

I guess it all comes dwon to what one has the most confidance with and experiance, My first choice year round would be the traps.

Many would loose alot of efficantcy without all tools available including the airplane as the terrian and circumstances change and time of year each one has their place.

A well placed and blended trap is tough to beat though IMO.

[ October 12, 2010, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 12, 2010, 02:34 PM:
 
Yeah, but what if your territory is 5000 sq miles with multiple problem areas and you can only check 85 traps a day?
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on October 12, 2010, 07:13 PM:
 
Here's the answer.....

It doesn't really matter, because if you are limited to one tool there is no way you are going to alleviate much damage. A little maybe, but not alot.

But if I have to pick, I'll take denning with dogs and the horse. That is going to lower the numbers the most for me personally.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on October 13, 2010, 05:40 AM:
 
The trap is a good tool, as are all the rest but no right or wrong answer IMO, each has their specialty. But to be the most efficant ALL tools are needed. I have 30+ years trapping experiance, 20 years of calling but my calling wasn't near as good as it is today for me until I learned from co workers and trial and error working complaints.Snaring is also something I have alot of years doing and has evolved to where I find very,very few live coyotes any more and they go down faster as well. Open or in cover. If a coyote moves he/she can be taken in either a trap or snare no matter cover or terrian.At times it can be slower than denning/calling an other times it can be the only method that removes the problem.

Cal stated it well, if we each had nly 1 tool then our efficantcy and kill rates would be different, we can all adjust but having more tools makes one more efficant.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on October 13, 2010, 08:05 AM:
 
I guess for me if it was just 1 tool I would use the snare.

Traps: I love trapping. something about running a line and seeing animals bounce on the end of a chain.............but not a practical tool with all the non-target, and livestock you have to deal with in the spring and summer. I have a 72 hour check which really makes it tough. If that was all I had I would am confident I could get it done but I do not think it is the best stand alone tool. To many people conflicts as well.

M44's: Probably my second choice and at first I thought it was going to be my pick. It is the fact that I have so much woven wire that snares become the obvious choice for me. M44's have little to no non-target animals, If set in the right location and if you keep up on the maintanence they can be effective year round. The fact that they shine in the spring is a big plus as well. I do very well with these from march 1st through june. and again they start to pick up sept. Oct. and Nov. these are great months for M44's also. I have killed coyotes every month of the year with them, M44's are a great tool. If it was not for the fact that I have hundreds of miles on woven wire on my sheep M44's would be my choice.

Calling: Mainly due to weather and the amount of locations I have to work it just is not practical. It would be a lot of fun just having to get up and call coyotes all day. Less work than all the maintenance involved with the other tools. With the county I am in now you would get your lunch handed to you on a daily basis though if all you did was call. Just not enough good weather days and to many places to be at one time.

The girl: That my friends looks and smells of pure trouble for me. not a chance, been there done that. I am to old for that shit now anyways. I might introduce her to my son though.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on October 13, 2010, 03:17 PM:
 
the trap is and can be a practical tool in the spring and summer. Unless those coyotes are living inside the sheep pasture a trap will catch "some" that other methods won't. Poor fencing for snaring, night time killing and/or cover close by making the plane less effective.

I can recount more than a few coyotes that have met their demise from a well placed trap, but again it comes down to confidance and methods used at times.

I had some killin going on a few weeks back had the plane fly 6 times, cover very close by to the sheep pasture, we even walked the cover with dogs to no avail, no luck calling in this coyote, even had a co worker give it a try one morning no luck, snaring poor fence hopping finally nailed him ( large male) in a trap set. I had other sets to intercept the coons but the plane flew by just to see if they could see fresh kills or by luck catch him out at a different time and there sat Mr coyote not 20 yrds from the sheep pasture held firmly in a trap.

As the world grows and crop genetics get better many more will see row crops in areas that in the past where nothing but range land, I have seen changes in my area and it will continue on west I have little doubt about that and sunflowers and corn are coyote holding magnets that can make things more challanging for sure.

[ October 13, 2010, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 13, 2010, 07:13 PM:
 
Too much like fishing with just one lure or bird hunting with a .22; it can work, but.......

I'm still thinking attend a couple of Predator Board meetings. Have coffee with the rancher sometime. Invite him over for a bbq some week-end to talk coyotes. Suggest that he bring the family.................
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 13, 2010, 10:10 PM:
 
I need an internship for my degree... I'd love to tag along with one (or more) of you guys and get college credits for it!

Krusty
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on October 14, 2010, 08:07 PM:
 

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If a coyote moves he/she can be taken in either a trap or snare no matter cover or terrian.

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I have seen many good teams kill 10 - 12 coyotes in a day. I also know a team that killed 30 coyotes in 3 days. Stop and think about how much ground you have to cover to pick up those kind of numbers with traps.

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but place your M-44 so they have to pull it out in order to roll it

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On the dog side of things, most men have only scratched the surface to what dogs can do for them from the standpoint of tracking, going to the howl, decoying, finding dens, etc. etc

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I see more of those men gravitating towards the saddle horse and dog package than any other simply due to the instant results in can give you time after time

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I haven't found a seasoned ADC man yet that I couldn't learn from

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I don't think ADC men work together enough and I believe it should be encouraged more.

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I think there is real opportunity in most ADC programs by utilizing a dog specialist for tough killing situations instead of treating each trapper district like it's own kingdom with it's own ruler.

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I think you missed the point.

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The diameter of my M-44 heads after being wrapped is about the size of a quarter.

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I use a hot glue gun to adhere these wool strips to the head rather than tying them on with string.

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In warm temperatures I don't want runny M-44 lures.

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I prefer to cover the entire head

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The same coyotes can be killed in many places within the same area or they can be killed in one or two central locations within that area with a lot less effort.

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All the M-44s I set anymore are either rocked or trenched in. I prefer rocking them in on draw stations and either rocking them in or trenching them in on trap type locations which I have to use when coyotes are coming in to calving areas from many directions.

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There is a big difference between the effectiveness of "stall out" M-44 locations and "pass by" M-44 locations.

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Once I went to wool strips from wool clothes, I have used the same heads for many years.

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The most important coyote of all is the wet female in March and April

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To attach the snare to the fence I just slip the cable through the woven wire then slip the lock end of the snare through the loop in my cable.

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