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Author
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Topic: What makes an effective Animal Damage Control program
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 26, 2010 09:01 AM
I thought I would share some of the things I have learned over the years about the logisitics of running an effective predator control / livestock protection program. This topic is probably geared more towards those of us who work on problem coyotes year round as opposed to recreational coyote callers but I'll share this with anyone interested at this forum and you can join in as you see fit.
Legitimate civil debate and differences of opinion that reflect different variables are always welcome. That's where the opportunity to learn exists. With that said, it's certainly easier to be an ankle biting critic than to actually put down thoughts and ideas that are based on experience and subject them to criticism. I assume that risk going in.
There is many ways to accomplish the same end result along with a multitude of variables too numerous to mention to consider that change from area to area and season to season.
This will be written not only from my own experiences but from the experiences of many who walked in these same shoes before me and graciously shared that knowledge with me. This is definitely not written for anyone with a few years of ADC experience that think they already have all the answers based on the experiences of their short career. This is geared towards any ADC hand who wants to improve their success as I did from the knowledge gained by others and realizes that there is no end to what can be learned to improve our efficiency.
Let's start out by defining what I believe is legitimate predator control as opposed to recreational calling of coyotes under the disguise of legitimate predator control.
Legitimate predator control involves the timely removal of problem coyotes in and around historic problem areas to prevent and minimize livestock losses.
Legitimate predator control does not include recreational coyote calling on spring calving cattle operations in the middle of the summer after the calves are over 1 month old and it does not include calling coyotes in and around farm flocks of sheep that have never experienced coyote predation and due to their management practices never will. Unfortunately, only experienced ADC men recognize and understand the difference.
I think each and every situation of legitimate predator control should be focused on the following goal and objectives....
To prevent and minimize livestock loss from predators in the most efficient and cost effective manner relative to the available resources
The goal of preventing and minimizing livestock loss is not debateable. The goal is very specific. To be more specific, I would submit the following maximum livestock loss thresholds:
To keep calf losses below 2%
To keep ewe losses below 3%
To keep lamb losses below 5%
It's certainly not realistic to expect any ADC hand, regardless of experience, to be able to prevent any and all predation.
For the sake of this discussion, I will focus primarily on two predators, coyotes and red fox.
Where the debate occurs is within the element of what is the most efficient and cost effective way to accomplish this goal and these objectives within the available resources.
For the sake of discussion and within the realm of "available resources", we will assume that the ADC specicalist has the basic knowledge of what tools are available and where each of these tools should be applied. We will also assume that the district size is large enough to keep the trapper busy but not so big that he can't possibly cover all the complaints regardless how knowledgeable he is. I have seen both extremes.
So within that context, let's talk about the methods and the timeliness of each.
1. Aerial hunting
This would include both fixed wing and helicopters.
To be cost effective, it's my belief that the efficient use of aerial hunting needs to be heavily critiqued. "PREVENTATIVE" Aerial hunting with fixed wing aircraft needs to carefully consider both the time of year and the size area to be hunted relative to historic areas of predation. "Scorched earth" broad based aerial hunting of large open tracts of ground well away from areas of historic predation should not be encouraged simply based on the dynamics of coyote dispersion and spacial redistribution and the expense involved with aerial hunting. Broad based "scorched earth" aerial hunting during the prime fur season is not unlike throwing a starfish back in the ocean and believing that you somehow made a difference.
Anyone who has read any of the radio telemetry or ear tag studies regarding coyote dispersal and spacial redistribution would understand why timing and placement is so crucial to an effective aerial hunting program.
Without regressing too far, consider that the late 70's and early 80's brought on the most intensive coyote harvest methods ever seen. The fur prices brought out trappers, snaremen, snowmobiles, illegal aerial hunting, houndsmen, etc. etc. yet coyotes expanded their range into the eastern United States during that era.
Other than in a few isolated cases, coyote harvest has never reached a level that was high enough to reduce overall coyote numbers. Research on coyote population recruitment would suggest that you have to kill over 70% of the population to simply maintain it. Any less of a harvest has no affect and coyotes fill voids very quickly based on their uncanny ability to distribute themselves according to the populations in surrounding areas.
With that in mind, fixed wing aerial hunting is only cost effective when targeting certain areas at certain times of the year.
I believe that it is imperative to aerial hunting efficiency for the trapper to have a good idea where those coyotes are before calling in the plane. Doing so can reduce the amount of time flown and the area to be flown.
Nothing grates on me worse than watching a "so called" trapper call the airplane in, not have any idea where the coyotes will be found, then sits on the hill to watch the show. All that does is take that time away from someone else who might need it worse.
The same goes for those who repeatedly hunt the same areas over and over because they can't get the coyotes located.
When considering the cost effectiveness of aerial hunting with a helicopter, the timeliness and area to be hunted becomes even more important due to the expense involved with helicopters. There is definitely some areas where flying with a helicopter is cost effective but it needs to be scrutinized carefully. These areas are usually brush or cedar choked to limit the effectiveness of fixed winged aircraft and very close to historic problem areas of livestock protection. Most ADC programs limit their helicopter flying to specific cases for that reason.
Aerial hunting is probably the best tool we have at our disposal in many situations but it's maximum effectiveness depends on a good ground crew that has the coyotes located.
Another way to maximize the effectiveness of fixed wing aircraft is to find elevated positions close to the area to be hunted to not only locate coyotes by getting them to answer you but also to spot coyotes that are moving away from the plane as they shoot other coyotes. What I have found is that the perfect place to be is 1 mile away from where you expect the plane to be shooting and on a high ridge so you can spot the coyotes that are moving away as the plane drops in to shoot. There is many times where you will see coyotes moving 1/2 mile away from where the plane is shooting other coyotes.
As mentioned previously, it has been my goal to locate or spot 30% - 50% of the coyotes that we shoot on any given hunt and I achieve that goal many times as should other ADC hands. This requires knowing where the coyotes can be expected, knowing where to position yourself to spot and locate them, and knowing where to keep moving to spot and locate more coyotes.
I often direct the plane away from flat open ground where i can easily spot any coyotes moving out while the plane is working areas that I cannot cover on the ground. This serves to utilize the time of each in a better manner.
To be continued as time allows ......
[ September 26, 2010, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 26, 2010 12:01 PM
Interesting; thus far.
The following grabbed my attention right away:
quote:
To be cost effective, it's my belief that the efficient use of aerial hunting needs to be heavily critiqued. "PREVENTATIVE" Aerial hunting with fixed wing aircraft needs to carefully consider both the time of year and the size area to be hunted relative to historic areas of predation. "Scorched earth" broad based aerial hunting of large open tracts of ground well away from areas of historic predation should not be encouraged simply based on the dynamics of coyote dispersion and spacial redistribution and the expense involved with aerial hunting. Broad based "scorched earth" aerial hunting during the prime fur season is not unlike throwing a starfish back in the ocean and believing that you somehow made a difference.
I still have much bitterness towards the Nevada policies in which they spend the budget money because it is there, regardless of the fact that there is no stock in the area, but lots of coyotes. Open range BLM, National Forest, all public land. This really pisses me off.
There is a $5 fee included in all hunting licenses, specified for predator control. Nevada has a growing human population and although I don't know specifics, I think they have a lot of money at their disposal for predator control. Predator control in vast areas where no specific threat or problem exists. I think this is unjustified, in many parts of the state.
End of rant. ElBee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 26, 2010 05:09 PM
Leonard,
I can't speak for Nevada's program or any other program for that matter but I will say that your response is exactly why I tread lightly DURING THE PRIME FUR SEASON and am careful not to fly any more ground than I believe is necessary to accomplish the mission.
I was a recreational fur harvester prior to my becoming an ADC trapper. My father is a recreational fur harvester. I will be a recreational fur harvester once again after I retire. I didn't and won't forget my roots.
Recreational fur harvesting is as legitimate a use of public land and wildilfe resources as running livestock and ADC work. I believe it's imperative that we find a balance between the two rather than killing coyotes during the prime fur season on a broad scale simply because we can.
There will be those who disagree with that approach but I will gladly compare livestock losses to back my views on the importance of time and location when removing problem coyotes.
Others,
Now I am well aware of the exceptions to the rule. If there is ewes being killed in the winter months or fall calves being killed, then ADC efforts have to be implemented accordingly.
I have seen WS programs in other states out hunting on public land, during the prime fur season, at the same time as a National Coyote Calling Contest. The aerial hunting conducted was on an actual sheep kill but I would have waited until the following week simply to avoid the inevitable conflict particularly when considering that these sportsmen and women are paying part of our salary.
I don't want to give anyone the impression that the way I do things now is always the way I have done them. At one time I didn't know any better than to sit on the hill and watch the plane fly either. Over the years I learned the importance of locating coyotes for the plane and now I have made it a priority.
Locating coyotes ahead of the plane not only involves spotting coyotes and getting them to answer you, it also involves scouring the area for fresh tracks and fresh sign prior to aerial hunting to determine the direction of coyote travel. Many times this search for sign precedeeding the aerial hunt makes spotting and locating the morning of the hunt more effective due to the elimination of non productive real estate.
Any ADC hand starting out would be well advised to spend time with the ADC men that worked the area before them. This can lead to a faster learning curve on where coyotes can be expected to den based on historical dennig areas. The time I spent with retired ADC hands was time well spent.
Although I don't have a good set of dogs currently, the value of a good dog cannot be understated. Due to the mange in my previous district, I didn't start another set of dogs as my dogs grew too old to work. I recently purchased a couple pups and will be starting them again. The value in a good set of dogs is
in locating trap locations, finding crippled coyotes, working coyotes out of the brush under the plane and decoying coyotes around den sites.
On the timeliness of aerial hunting, with sheep operations, I believe the perfect time to start is around the first of February. As you get closer to denning time (around May 1st), the possibility of different coyotes moving in is reduced.
I have put a lot of time and thought into the topic of timeliness in the removal of problem coyotes. I am well aware that coyotes can den as early as late March and pup well into June. With that in mind, migration and spacial redistribution into void areas will adjust accordingly.
For the sake of argument, let's just assume all coyotes are bred the last week in February and pup the first week of May.
When reviewing my records, I was surprised to see that some of the areas I worked in January that were flown again in February, showed only 50% of the January take. Now I realize there is more variables involved here such as coyote movement activity, visibility, snow cover vs. patchy snow, etc. etc. but I was still surprised with those results. I expected to shoot just as many coyotes in February as I did in January due to the coyote dispersal and spacial redistribution that is still occuring.
Not to contradict what I have said previosly but I only started in January because I was requested by cattlemen that have had previous problems and the receational hunting had slown down by that time. By removing the older adult coyotes in these areas, it would reduce the chance for problems later even though these voids would be quickly filled by younger dispersing coyotes. Unfortunately, most cattlemen are concerned with the number of coyotes they see rather than the age of those coyotes. In addition, the coyotes really become visible as they pull into the calving pastures as cows start calving. This usually results in another phone call from the rancher and another aerial hunt.
I have probably witnessed as many legitimate calf kills as any ADC hand can. My peak was 52 verified calf kills in one year. As mange increased, the numbers of calf kills decreased. There are cowboys that will swear up and down that coyotes will not kill calves. Just the same, there is cattlemen that will experience calf kills virtually every year. Poor management often gets the blame but that is seldom the case. What I have found is that the cattlemen who start calving earlier than their neighbors tend to pull coyote in from miles around. MANY legitimate calf kills will be the result of a family group of coyotes that will include 2 or more mature coyotes as well as yearling coyotes with the courage to take on a calf while the cow tries to defend it. One other factor that plays a part in who will have coyote problems and who won't is how comfortable the area is for coyotes to sneak in and out without being harrassed by people or livestock. Those who calf in rough breaks will encourage more coyote predation all other things being equal.
In determining legitimate calf kills from calves that died of natural causes there is numerous signs to look for. First, when calves are killed by coyotes, you will see blood in the kill area. Calves that are born dead will have coagulated blood that is found in the area of the dead calf only. The presence and distribution of blood in the area is a key sign. Another sign is the soft cartilidge (sp?) nipple on the hoof of a new born calf. If that nipple is still present, the calf never made it to it's feet. If the cartilidge nipple is missing, the calf was on it's feet. If the calves tongue is swollen, it was obviously a difficult birth which may have resulted in a dead calf. Sometimes you can tell by the behavior of the cow. If the cow is lathered up and in a frenzy from fighting coyotes, that can be a sign. If the cow was nursed, that is a sign of a live calf. If the cow doesn't show much interest, the calf was probably born dead. It seems cows show more interest in their calf if it had shown signs of life.
Of all these signs to help seperate a legitimate kill from a calf that was born dead and consumed by coyotes, blood is the most important to look for.
Considering the "opportunistic' behavior of coyote predation, here are some of the legitimate calf kill situations I have witnessed that resulted in verified kills:
1. A cow that wandered off to the far corner of the pasture to calf by herself far from other cattle. This presents an opportunity.
2. A set of twins. This presents an opportunity.
3. Adverse weather during calving. This creates an opportunity.
4. A cow that leaves her calf away from the herd while she goes for food and water. This presents an opportunity.
5. The first cows that calf in the spring. This usually presents an opportunity. As more cows calf there is more natural food available and more cows on the guard.
Getting back to the timeliness of aerial hunting. As stated previously, for the sake of argument, let's assume all coyotes are bred the last week in February and pup in the first week of May.
This is how I would value the effectiveness of aerial hunting in reducing the number of coyotes that move back into an area.
Feb. 5th - 40%
Feb 12th - 45%
Feb 19th - 50%
Feb 26th - 55%
Mar 5th - 60%
Mar 12th - 65%
Mar 19th - 70%
Mar 26th - 75%
Apr 2nd - 80%
Apr 9th - 85%
Apr 16th - 90%
Apr 23rd - 95%
Now please don't anyone etch this in concrete because I already admitted to the fact that coyotes don't all breed the last week in February and pup in the first week of May. In addition, there are factors that vary from area to area that can change this. There is also some denning areas that are so perfect that coyotes removed in April can be replaced by late puppers in May. I know there is many exceptions but I am going to stick my neck out far enough to say this is fairly close in many situations.
Anyone have any additional comments on increasing the effectiveness of aerial hunting?
What do you think of my time value chart?
~SH~
[ September 26, 2010, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 26, 2010 05:59 PM
Very interesting comments and data, Scott. I, for one, feel very fortunate that you share this information with the membership. It is food for thought even if not directly applicable to some hunters and their recreational activities.
Of course, I am of the belief that all coyote facts and information is useful, not just specific tips on how to work a stand and how to locate, etc.
When to fly. It would be nice if your opinions were shared by MOST agencies, but I think the attitude is to get a jump on the problem, in some cases.
You have given me a few things to think about; you are one heck of a seeker of truth, my friend.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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luckyjack
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3462
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posted September 26, 2010 06:19 PM
I am finding it very interesting.
Thank you.
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better to be lucky than good
Posts: 41 | From: 4 sections North of Clem | Registered: Jul 2009
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted September 26, 2010 10:55 PM
AY AY AY this is always a difficult one to discuss with anybody that is recreational and wants coyotes behind every bush.
First off Scott i wish you would have picked a different subject for the first. Naming aerial hunting as the first makes it look like it is the most important and first tool of choice. I know you didn't mean that to happen just an observation.
There is a lot of information so i will try to give MY POINT OF VIEW as best as I can.
MOST of my area is deeded acres. I do not frown upon my CATTLE ranchers letting someone else call anytime of the year except calving or when there is active killing going on. However some of them feel better and believe it will be quicker when the problems occur to have no one except myself out there chasing coyotes. SO on those ranches (which is most of them) keeping the recreational hunters in mind is nill for the most part. I'm not isolated my area is 75% signed up to have me take care predator issues. SHEEP ranchers is different i have sole rights and push it to be that way just for the simple fact that it is a headache from the get go without me wondering what the coyotes have been introduced to.
"Timely removal" as you call it can be up to debate on what someone thinks of the phase. I'm a firm believer in around CATTLE that age of coyote is a VERY big factor and NUMBER of coyotes is the second biggest factor. I'm not saying that a single coyote or pair of coyotes won't kill calves but the higher percentage of kills on CALVES i deal with is either a large group or a pair of older coyotes with a yearling or two.
So does flying that area when disperal is going on and you can catch groups of 3 and 4 and 5 coyotes in the area together and remove them not timely or should i wait until there is broken up pairs and singles? Hour for hour my bang for the buck may be in october and November with clean up on snares and m-44's until closer to calving and then another flight. Yes there will be more dispersal and coyote spacing but what if you are covering a ten mile radius due to other ranchers adjoing that one? How much dispersal into the area do you deal with...not much. Is that what you would call "scorched earth"? Watching your major disperal routes from adjoing areas can get you a long ways with removing the least amount of coyotes.
I'm on the same page as you with Calve kills I have seen plenty and anyone that wants to argue that coyotes won't kill calves hasn't been ranching long enough. Yes there is some practices that will help including not owning hiefers LOLLOL but you pretty well stated most of the scenerios i see for calving problems. However i do want to point out that when the calves hooves show it didn't get up what about the ones that get eaten as they came out? Or were "helped out"! LOL Most of the time they end up killing the cow also due to shock or eating on her hind end but as you said in those cases ususally the cow is pretty worked up.
Also your mission statement for ADC work is spot on.
On the point of aerial hunting on public ground with an ACTUAL KILL during a contest i believe is something that with your situation over there and where all your pay comes from decided your viewpoint. I'm in an area where the rancher himself pays for a good part of the service in a "predator fee" out of his own pocket so telling him that he is going to lose two more ewes this weekend so that you don't piss off the recreational guys isn't an option. And on that point our ranchers have a little more control over when and how much management they get. you don't call a plumber and have him say "well wiley it's going to cost $200 but your toilet still flushes... not good but it still flushes so i'm not going to do anything but i still need $200"
right?
As far as your time chart i don't have enough data in my area to give you a good answer on how those numbers are however i would agree they look good.
However when talking about removing them earlier than your dates you have seen as well as me that a good denning area will produce a large number of dens if you allow it. So removing coyotes earlier in the year and as they start to group for breeding will invaribly help with the amount of coyotes that are denned in that area. To make myself clear if an area is primo and will hold up to 6 dens if left alone but you work it hard in January and keep the numbers down then when the shit hits the fan you should only be dealing with a pair or two that was able to den in there correct?
December is a "goofy" time for coyotes however i have removed a number of coyotes in an area in december and was able get rid of the marginal denning areas and when i returned in late April only had two pairs denned in the most Primo denning pokets. I'm talking about a three ranch probably 12 mile by 3 mile area. Where if i had come later in the year with less favorable flying conditions i would have had coyotes paired up and ready to den in say 6-8 spots and may have to tackle them one at a time. It comes down to dollars and cents plain and simple. I was raised on good vehicle maintance goes a long ways. I would rather have all my ranchers happy as horseshit with little to no loss instead of being the hero that "solved the problem". I know that no loss in an area is unatainble but at least not the same guy year after year in CATTLE. If i was a rancher i wouldn't want to lose my predator fee every year in the one to three calves i lost i would rather spend it and lose nothing. I guess i look at it as a kind of insurance.
I would agree on the REAL GOOD denning pockets they are tough to keep clean i've had pairs pup as late as the second week in June in a good denning pocket on sheep.
I would agree also on the dogs i had a man that I respect very much with 25+ yrs in the bussiness tell me "you're only as good as your dogs in this bussiness!"
A good man on the ground will make the airplane look like a hero, a bad man on the ground will make the plane look like a waste of money!
On Sheep within 10 miles in every direction "scorched earth" plain and simple. If your program allows! ( Money, time, neighbors ect) no sharp teeth within 10 miles. I'm not saying that i'm accomplishing that but that is my view point on keeping the killing down.
Leonard i'm not sure on Nevedas situation but don't blame the trapper he is doing what he is told, if that is something you want changed i would go to the BLM or Forest service they wright the rules on when and how much we can protect the ranchers in there.
I have had the honor to study under two guys that have done this 25+ yrs plus my own time to come to my conclusions however I'm not close minded enough to say that there isn't a lot to learn still.
My two cents anyway
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
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posted September 26, 2010 11:16 PM
I forgot to add that this topic is "debateble" at best just due to the fact that unless you have actually worked another guys area or you know everything about it (numbers of sheep vs cattle, kind of terrain, rancher mentality ect) you have no bussiness telling him how to run his program.
"you" doesn't mean you scott i mean anybody in general
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 26, 2010 11:26 PM
nd, my guess is that they are flying these areas that have no sheep and no cattle without responding to complaints. They are killing coyotes in high population areas that have very few ranches in close proximity, way over ten miles distant, in most cases.
I really think you have a selfish attitude in requesting that nobody else be allowed access so that your job is easier. No offense, of course, but I have a problem with exclusive access and locked gates.
And, I have a bigger problem with arial gunning public land that doesn't have any stock grazing on it, in December.
I've mentioned this before. IMHO, It's a shitty situation.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted September 26, 2010 11:35 PM
Leonard when it comes to sheep to be honest a guy that just wants to call in coyotes has plenty of places to go..... I mean honestly. I express my views to the rancher it is still HIS LAND if he wants to let someone else in there it's his perogative i just tell him it might mean another lamb or two in the spring. I tell them i would LIKE to have no one else calling or trapping the decision is still his.
Broad base flying on public land i'm not sure about although you might want to check with the nevada game and fish due to the fact that they have WS remove predators on a occasion to help public hunting land for mule deer or antelope herds. I'm assuming that you KNOW that there is not livestock is that because the ranchers can't be on public land after a certain date or because you don't "see' any livestock.
I know how you feel about the locked gates however with your backround and expierence i would think that after a 10 minute converstation with a rancher you are going to have no problem getting access to any private land to call.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 27, 2010 04:27 AM
WS does fly parts of Nevada for the protection of mule deer, bighorn sheep and other animals, even including sage grouse. I believe the air gunning is mostly for the deer though, as they concentrate more on lion removal for the bighorn and using poison eggs for the ravens to protect the sage grouse leks.
But the reason they give for most of the scorched earth flying on public land during fur season, is to clean out the coyotes before the sheep or cattle arrive in the spring.
I don't like it anymore than Leonard. But it is what it is.
The volume is down a little bit this year, too. Budget cuts. I think they lost some full time hands this year. I know at least one crew member is working the job of a full time specialist to make up some of the slack though. Heard supervisors are spending more time in the field to help too.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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SD Howler
taught Huber everything he knows, but not everything HE knows!
Member # 3669
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posted September 27, 2010 08:05 AM
THANKS to Wily E and nd coyote killer for all their comments in reference to the taking of coyotes with their state and federal ADC programs. I was a trapper with the SD ADC program from 1977-92. Yes many stories could be told but Scott and Jamie are covering it well so far. Unfortunately the killing of coyotes is not going to keep everybody happy, but it was our job to reduce or prevent losses for these livestock producers. You would have no idea what goes on from day to day with the job of these guys until you have sat in their shoes for a day. I remember the nights of receiving phone calls from multiple ranchers who were experiencing calf or sheep kills and having to make a decision where to go the next morning. You sure weren’t going to keep everyone happy with that choice.
In terms of coyote birthing, one of our old time trappers told me that an average date for coyotes giving birth to their pups was the 10th of April and 10th of May was when the pups would first be brought up out of their dens.
Enough said for now.
[ September 27, 2010, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]
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Steve
Predator Calling
rattler51@pie.midco.net
Posts: 51 | From: SD | Registered: Sep 2010
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nd coyote killer
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posted September 27, 2010 08:36 AM
Steve your input on this discussion would be a great benefit with your time in the field and expierence.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 27, 2010 10:38 AM
Yes, I agree, Steve. Anything you care to add, day to day workload, unusual events, notable failures....anything of interest.
As far as Scott and his views on policy, I'd like to hear a lot more about how we can work together and satisfy all, stockmen, ADC specialists, recreational hunters and the public.
Good hunting. LB
PS, thanks to Dave for backing me up on the goings on, in Nevada. Killing lions to enhance the mule deer harvest? Boy, there's a good one!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
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posted September 27, 2010 03:41 PM
Just to keep from any confusion my name is not Jamie. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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highwayman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3656
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posted September 27, 2010 03:55 PM
interesting topic...ADC stuff
couple of thoughts regarding exclusivity
hunting private land and wanting to know who and when someone else maybe hunting the ranch is important out here
-if somethin gets broke or God forbid someone's livestock gets shot i don't want the rancher callin wonderin who it was and for that reason i call and leave a message everytime i enter someone else's property...i re-describe my vehicle and tell em how many folks in my party (if any)
i do this in advance in case the ranch is out workin cattle or there is any other reason i shouldn't be on the ranch that day
-i do have access to a few places where there is a trapper...and he is makin a livin of sorts off his pelts (i don't currently take furs) so...i arrange a drop off spot that he checks almost daily while runnin his traps (for animals i have left for him)
last year...one of these ranches allowed some contest hunters to enter his ranch and they shot some trapped animals and removed em
i got a call from the trapper who wanted to know if i knew who did it (i just happened to run into the contest guys)
not that i am a great predator hunter by a very long stretch
but i have a lot of respect for the rights these property owners are givin me and that makes me a good hunter
(some aren't...and can really screw it up for others)
it's the ranchers decision to let others hunt his land and mine to not hunt there then
land that is accessed by a guide service ???
i wouldn't hunt that land/ranch WITH permission
anyone who says they're bringin out folks that have never shot a predator before (often at night)
and isn't as LIGIT as possible... with years and years of experience teachin hunter safety (not just killin stuff) and with complete liability...well...that is not an area i want to be in
there are some VERY ligit services around
and for many of the reasons listed above they have a lock on that ranch
not just cause they want more coyotes to kill
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it's my way or the...
Posts: 10 | From: far west texas | Registered: Sep 2010
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coyotehunter
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posted September 27, 2010 09:44 PM
Steve that is Brad "ND coyote Killer". I do not want to jump to far into this. ND and myself often talk about the differences we have from each other in our own counties and we have only a county seperating us. interesting discussion. I often have guys wanting to come with and go calling with me.....I typically do not let them bring a gun........even some of my ranchers on there own property. If you miss you get to go on to the next township and call in another with little to no thought about that missed coyote ever again....I got to get up the next day and go get it. This is what I do day after day. When I get the call that the ranchers son, or brother in law, hired hand....seen a coyote out the window of the truck and emptied the clip on his gun and may have winged it.........the next thing out of his mouth is "So what do you think we should do now" Translation: "we" in the ADC world always means "you". I have at times in certain situations been known to say "I don't care what you do with that coyote, there not my sheep" translation: quite F'n with the coyotes. I can't tell you how impossible, time consuming and expensive this can become when you have to competition hunt your coyotes on livestock. It's a time and money issue for the ADMB, local predator board, and the Wool growers association. Nevada has to consider the amount of money brought in by out of state big game hunters. I know one of the specialists in Nevada who hunts coyotes on Deer herds. the animals in the western states are a commodity that is owned and managed by the states. Predators; specifically in this day and age it is the coyote that gets all the blame. Even if he is not always the guilty party. trust me the badgers, eagles, red fox, and bobcats all take there share of sheep. Bobcats can take deer and antelope when ever they get the notion to target them. I have seen predator boards shut off control work on ranches that do not work within what is considered exceptable practices for manageing predators. You can not let every tom, dick, and harry on the property to call snare and trap your coyotes and then come calving or lambing expect the WS to park the plane in thier driveway for the next 2 weeks trying to clean up the mess. When you have other ranches that have a locked gate mentality were do you owe your time and the predator boards resources? The ranch with all the "help" is not a priority. If he has killing and I have no other issues I am all over it but if there are other fires it may be awhile before I get there. I will tell him to call one of his buddies and get him out there when it is 95+ and 30 mph winds. Have him clean up the pegged legged and pinched toed coyotes. ON one ranch last year I took 3 peg legged coyotes and 2 with snares on them. That is more than I took off the rest of the county the whole summer. They trap, snare, and call all winter and come spring I get suck with trying to get the ones they screwed up. I know that is the job but...You just can not spend the amount of time required to clean those sort of issues with out pissing off the other ranchers who are also expecting help. sorry for the ramble and off subject comments. great posts scott and Brad.
Posts: 55 | From: west | Registered: Oct 2008
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Leonard
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posted September 27, 2010 10:59 PM
I see where you guys are coming from. There doesn't seem to be any way recreational hunters and ADC men can coexist?
However, we don't set traps and snares, so if that is happening on a ranch, that's where the rancher needs an education, provided by his ADC man.
I can't see much of a conflict with recreational fur hunters in Nov and Dec, maybe January, on cattle ranches? We can't guarantee that we are going to kill every last coyote that comes to the call, but who can? I generally see a lot more than I kill, or even shoot at.
Scott was the same way when I hunted with him. He said to let him shoot first because he can't blame anybody else for a missed coyote. I guess you ADC gents are under a lot of pressure and it's no game, it's serious business.
I actually like to hunt around cattle. Coyotes hang around cattle all the time, not just calving.
Well, carry on.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
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posted September 28, 2010 06:34 PM
Interesting for sure, a few years ago I got a call from a guy who had referred me to his neighbor who was having some problems. I went out to meet him and look around. I know nothing about ADC work, I just like to call coyotes.
I know the govt trapper and figured I would let the trapper do his thing and then go in and try to keep the numbers down when he was through. I ran into the trapper a few days later and told him of my plans and he said go ahead and call it, he was using other methods and I wouldn't bother him a bit.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted September 28, 2010 07:16 PM
That is the same response I get from my local trapper also Tom.
He just wants them dead.
I have no problems with ADC men. They get coyotes I can't.
Stay after them
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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coyotehunter
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posted September 28, 2010 07:32 PM
Great examples guys. Are we talking cattle or sheep?
Posts: 55 | From: west | Registered: Oct 2008
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CrossJ
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posted September 28, 2010 08:14 PM
My guess would be cattle;very few sheep operations(of larger scale) here in OK. This is for one reason due to our climate. Sheep have numerous health issues in warmer, wetter climates.
This brings up a few points I have been thinking about. As I mentioned, our climate is different from that of SD, ND, Wyo etc. We have alot fewer days sub freezing, a higher average rainfall, and thus a longer growing season. I saw a statistic that listed 68% of the states cow herd is fall calvers. Here, that means from august thru october is when the calves are hitting the ground. Also, our spring calvers here are generally from february thru april.
The reasons I mentioned this is in regards to something Scott said in regards to the timing of ADC work. Our fall calving cows will calve during a time when there are low energy requirements, and a very high prey population. Predation on fall calving cows is rare in my experience here(ran 1800 mother cows for 8 years). Even our spring calvers would come at a time when there is still a large availability of prey(average year) due to our milder climate and greater amounts of rainfall.
All that said, there are a few ranches here that are aerial gunned every year regardless. I know these ranches, I know the cowboys and I know the owners. They would be hard pressed to show an example of coyote depredation on cattle, especially since one of them runs primarily stockers. I don't have a problem with our trapper, and I consider him a friend. He has lined up trapping and hunting permission for me in the past. My question is why throw money at a problem that may not exist, or in other words, is the cost of the cure, much larger than the cost of the problem. To me , beavers, and of course hogs cause greater economic losses to the ag community here than do coyotes. And since I mentioned economics, a booming deer herd can cause greater economic losses to cattle ranchers than many would suspect. Especially if one were to consider the losses or expences incured due to lepto and vibrio being spread by deer populations.
Just a little devils advocacy....maintain!
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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TOM64
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posted September 28, 2010 09:55 PM
Yes, cattle.
Here we have some problems with coyotes and calves but not what most believe. Still problems or not, when they get the chopper, they call as many landowners as they can and do a fly-by. Kill em all, ya know.
Hogs are a major problem and getting worse. A man could probably go into business removing hogs and get rich.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
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posted September 28, 2010 10:07 PM
CrossJ: I have zero fall calvers so i can't say much about that aspect but i have talked to trappers that say it can me a headache to the 9th degree with larger groups of coyotes running around. I agree that the other critters you mentioned can cause a severe amount of damage. In most places that they do the trapper just specializes in those critters I know texas has a large hog program due to the economic stress on the ranchers down there. I'm not sure about OK but calve depredation has been documented up here over and over and over and over again. It's not debateble it's fact.
Leonard: you can call on my ranches anytime you want!!! I just don't want every swinging dick with a e-caller letting it blare from the truck window and shooting as soon as they break the 300yd barrier. It's not about making my job easier it's about saving the rancher money by getting the killing stopped sooner. Dollars and cents plain and simple.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
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posted September 28, 2010 10:46 PM
quote:
It's not debateble it's fact.
nd, I do not doubt you one bit. I fully understand that depredation is a problem in all livestock at some time. I guess my comments where more to Scotts original post, or title for that matter. "What makes an effective ADC program"....Part of that would be monies spent versus losses prevented. Geographical location changes the whole dynamic...it was mentioned that even the distance of a few counties can change the 'deal'. So obviously several states would also. Basically I feel that a generic plan is put into effect in the areas I know of. To me, that is ineffectiveness of it. Each program needs to be tailored to the area to be the most effective.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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nd coyote killer
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posted September 29, 2010 04:38 AM
I agree CrossJ. Sorry about the confusion.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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