quote:

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read recently where someone claimed that the quality of their electronic caller was so good that you could go back into the same areas and call the same coyote the next day after you burned them. I had to laugh. You might be able to do this a few times if you happen to be the first one that burned them but I am here to tell you that coyotes, once burned, will learn to differentiate between what is real and what is not and they will quickly associate what is not real with danger.

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quote:

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(hope I don't have to read them in someone else's article):

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Get out the snow blowers and shovels, boys. Scott and I are on the same train of thought on this one. And just to make it a point of record, I already have an article filed and on the upcoming calendar for this Fall that addresses this very subject. Therefore, when the piece goes to print in a few weeks, let it be known that the date stamp on the submitted manuscript will show it to have been completed in July - not this week. LOL

Without going into what I covered in my piece, I will go so far as to say that I don't agree with the assertion that howls are always intimidating and, thus, should not be used all season, especially in the early months. I firmly believe that the exact opposite is, in fact, true. I utilize vocalizations a LOT, and only vary which sounds I use, handmade or electrnic, how much per stand and where I use them in the sequence. I'll leave it to my article to further explain what I now do and why, but will say that a relatively new member here posted an inquiry about holwing to which I responded privately, advising him of my upcoming piece, and closing my remarks to him by saying that I fully expected my piece to precipitate a "lively" discussion by those who are detractors to my working hypothesis.

Like I said, hell has done froze over because my thoughts are spot on with Scott on this one. LOL
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 29, 2010, 11:14 PM:
 
Now, WHY Scott chose to reregister, rather than use his existing (this) account , I don't have a clue?

Anyway, thank you; a well thought out post. I could examine a few of his suppositions/theories, if I feel up to it, a little later, but as he said; "Let The Games Begin".

Good hunting. ElBee
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on August 30, 2010, 04:46 AM:
 
Great post,much of the same observations and behaviour we have come to see and believe. To put the whole calling response in perspective, I have little doubt that after a bad experience with an ecall or mouth call , although they may be able to discern the difference between real and manmade calling, the coyotes approach even those real distress and howl calls with a similar level of wariness.The learning curve is nearly a vertical line. Thanks Wiley
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on August 30, 2010, 06:14 AM:
 
Leonard,

This is my home computer hence the reason I chose to change the spelling a bit.

I had to laugh at the insignia, "Denies being Deepthroat". Haha! Wonder how many of your readers remember the whole story on the movie and the man. When Obama style "change" occurred in our job, some chose loyalty to the system and others chose their loyalty to the livestock producers we serve. Created some disention among the ranks. Won't elaborate further but had to chuckle at the reference to "Deepthroat" because it's so fitting in certain circles.

C-Dog,

Too funny! I didn't even have to set the hook. You just jumped in the boat. LOL!

TA,

I didn't say you can't call coyotes in once they have been burned. I have done it myself. I laughed at the notion that an E-caller is so good that you can do it repeatedly. I teach the different sound from a different direction on a different day theory, remember?

If all coyotes would get educated the first time, you wouldn't be able to call any past the first month because most have heard the gig by then. I'm just saying you can't keep burning them with the same sounds from the same source without educating them. Coyotes don't all have the same learning curve either. The implication is that coyotes can't differentiate from real distress sounds and a high quality e-caller and that's simply not true. Caution eventually wins over curiousity.

Others,

I remember another time where I was calling with a friend from a spot where you had to scrape the brass out of the way to lay down comfortably. I only tried howling. A coyote came in to about 500 yards behind a woven wire fence and paced back and forth. Couldn't shoot because it was in a National Park. Finally the coyote cleared the fence and started coming closer but with baby steps. My partner said, heck let me try the rabbit. I laughed under my breath and thought this would be a good lesson so I said go ahead. When he started the rabbit blues, that coyote's nose went through his ass and he ran back to where he came from like a scalded dog. I couldn't stop laughing. That's the most vivid educated coyote I can remember.

Here's another observation on a different topic. Go ahead Lance, you can use this. LOL!The same coyotes will answer the same small town sirens every night at curfew time. The town siren doesn't pose a threat but it shows how important howling is to coyote social behavior. Ray Alcorn's research on locating coyotes in Nevada is interesting stuff.

Another observation I find interesting is how coyotes learn not to howl where there is a road every mile. My theory is that they get harassed by dogs when they howl so they learn to pick the place and time to howl and I would guess that to be in the middle of the night.

There is one single point to this post and that is that coyotes can identify individual sounds and associate those sounds with danger or pleasure. Caution works against curiousity with every coyote and it's really fun when there is no caution. Enough bad experiences and they will learn to avoid certain sounds no matter how real they sound. Keep in mind that they quickly learn the howls of their parents vs. other coyotes when they are young so it's very easy for them to discern between a recorded rabbit and a real one once they have been burned by a recorded rabbit.

I probably should post this in the caller section but I'm going to post it here and if Leonard wants to move it he can. WT vs Fox Pro.

I have to admit that I am impressed with the advancements in both the Fox Pro and WT callers. I believe WT used to have the corner on the higher quality sounds and I still believe that is the case with a number of coyote vocalizations but I have heard some excellent quality distress sounds with Fox Pro's latest version. With that said, I also felt Fox Pro used to have the corner on being "user friendly" compared to all the wires and batteries of the original WT setup. What a mess that was. Obviously this was an issue for many WT users or they wouldn't have changed the unit to the far more user friendly "mighty atom". I also have to say that the best recorded distress sound I have ever heard is in the Fox Pro arsenal and accreditted to Cal Taylor. Given the choice between the two, which I was, I would still chose the WT simply based on the extensive high quality sound library. With that said I think the new Fox Pro units are probably just as good with the exception of some of their coyote vocalizations for my purposes. I'm probably still shell shocked from the original Fox Pro flashlight coyote vocalization recordings of someone blowing a Bill Austin howler but I'm also shell shocked from the wire and battery messes of the WT unit from days gone by. Both sucked for different reasons and now both callers have advanced to what I consider top of the line units. I just happen to feel that I need the adult coyote vocaliztions of the WT rather than the remote technology of the new Fox Pro. I wouldn't shed many tears if I was forced to use the new Fox Pro. I'm not trying to be diplomatic here, just calling it the way I see it. Not a lot of difference for the most part.

When I brought the WT technology to our guys in SD, some recognized the potential immediately and took their calling to a higher level. Others originally questioned the need for electronics, they followed those who took their game to a higher level, and now have become the "quint essential" authorities on all things WT. Funny how that works.

~SH~

[ October 02, 2010, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 30, 2010, 07:13 AM:
 
Excellent reading!
For whatever it's worth, oftentimes, I'll start a stand with a single howl on a hand call and just sit on it for a good 1/2 hour, or more. Maybe then, I'll answer with the e-caller, a 'social' type howl, and sit on it for another long spell. After maybe an hour, I'll toss some distress in, if only to unglue an unseen visitor that may need some coaxing into gun range...

You guys may think that crazy, but given my limited calling areas, relatively high human population & the associated interaction that coyotes have with people, roads, other game hunters, etc... I've found this tactic to work for me here in NY in the daylight. Not many guys believe me, but I don't really care...

Of course, I'm trying to howl to where I believe coyotes are layed up for the day, or traveling to/from early & late. Having that 'captive audience' to hear one decent howl is sometimes enough to get one to mosey on over to a lookee-loo. And when they do come, it is almost like they are sleep walking, a "non-chalant" approach, if you will, sniffing & looking. Unless it's February & a big male comes bounding through the snow with his hackles up. Then, IT's ON!!!

In any event, there is hardly ever a stand that I don't howl. Regardless of the time of year.

Great topic...
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 30, 2010, 08:02 AM:
 
ahhh, but.... Willy, Wily, Wiley? have you heard all the new adult coyote vocalizations FoxPro released in the last year or so? And a few new pups sounds and various other coyote sounds? Not sure who recorded them but they did a hell of a job.

Anyway, WT has NOTHING on FP in the coyote sounds department anymore.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on August 30, 2010, 08:07 AM:
 
I agree with Cal, The lastest FP coyote vocals are more productive in my area than most of the WT coyote sounds.

PS LB, lastest is an Okie word.

[ August 30, 2010, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 30, 2010, 09:59 AM:
 
Yeah, it would have to be....
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 30, 2010, 10:34 AM:
 

quote:

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The advantages to howling, regardless of the age or the social status of the coyotes you are working on are numerous. S.H.

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There's a safe statement for ya.

Of ocurse, age and/or social status can just as easily work against you, not knowing where the coyotes within range stack up in the hierarchy. Pick your vocalization carefully.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 30, 2010, 01:09 PM:
 
Hey Wiley E, I thought that you were dead! Glad I was wrong though. You must be several inches shorter than you were the last time I saw you, what with all of that prairie walking and all.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 30, 2010, 01:32 PM:
 

quote:

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Too funny! I didn't even have to set the hook. You just jumped in the boat. LOL!

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quote:

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I didn't say you can't call coyotes in once they have been burned. I have done it myself. I laughed at the notion that an E-caller is so good that you can do it repeatedly. I teach the different sound from a different direction on a different day theory, remember?

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Sorry about that..

Yes I remember, and it works very well..
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on August 30, 2010, 06:30 PM:
 
I think a lot of guys get stuck in the rut of "distress calls and 15 minute stands" and then switch to howls and don't understand why they don't work as well, without realizing that they may be reaching coyotes further away, but also now have coyotes coming slower in general and they don't have the patience to wait long enough for the coyotes to get there.
Classic example, I hunt with a rancher friend of mine who was taught by his grandad how to call coyotes, distress was all they ever used, and this ol' boy will literally stand up and head to the truck at about the 10 minute mark every time. He's gotten so used to 'em coming quick to distress, that he thinks if they're not there in 10, he ain't wastin' time waitin' on'em to come.
Another one is a cousin of mine. This last Feb. he and I were hunting together and I started one particular afternoon stand with a few female invites, and then was just sitting quietly for a while. Probably about 5 minutes had gone by when I hear my cousin, "psst....psst...you awake over there?" He thought I had fallen a sleep at the wheel. Eventually did a couple more howls and at about the 15 minute mark, had a little female wonder in and shot her at about 40 yards. He couldn't beleive it. Not one distress sound on stand, and a coyote just sauntered in like she was suppose to. But they don't alway get there with-in 15 minutes.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on August 31, 2010, 06:18 AM:
 
I have seen times when there is snow on the ground where coyote tracks wander thru my call stand. These tracks were laid down sometime thru the day after I had left and before dark.I don't know what the exact time lapse could be , but may be as much as several hours or more. Could be an awfully long call stand to meet up with those coyotes.Some WS hunters say coyotes may wait all day until evening and then come check out the site. A little harder to establish that happening.

[ August 31, 2010, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 31, 2010, 05:14 PM:
 
What's interesting is to see, amongst those who believe in tha value of howling, whether they use it early, or at the end, and why. IMO, I've come to use it up front simply because it tends to trigger at least two behaviors: compels them to go downwind, even if they weren't doing so already, and triggers a more cautious, even if curious, response, thus slowing things down to where that 'ten and go' strategy just won't cut it.

If I start with a howl, I wait the stand out a minimum 20 minutes, regardless of the time of the year. I've had too many coyotes pop up with just their head visible on the backside of a ridgeline or in brush as they reconnoiter, and almost always downwind of me or the caller, whichever made the sounds. Hard and fast rule for me.

As far as calling the same coyotes twice, I've done it twice that I can recall on the same day, and as a matter of fact, both within two hours of the first time I saw them. So, I know it can be done. The first was on a very windy day (35mph winds) on the leeward side of a long shelterbelt. A big male and a smaller female or pup first appeared at about 500 yards out, answering to distress. Both started in, the male turned and did somthing toward the pup who immediately sat down. The male began circling downwind of me and I took the best shot offered at ~250 yards and got him. The pup walked back to where they'd come from and four more coyotes appeared, all of them walking south into a thicket of sandplums a half-mile down the drainage. Two hours later, I came into the same pasture from the other side, sat up NW of the drainage and howled. Within about two minutes, three coyotes appeared and held up behind a large yucca plant. One of the three responded to my coaxing squeaks, offered a shot, and I dropped her, rolling her down the hillside. That day was to impress myself I guess. LOL

The first year young Matt and I hunted together, we called up a pair of young coyotes across a wheatfield They checked up at about a hundred yards, I looked them over and took the one that didn't have a big swatch of mange on its left hip. Mangy took off running toward the square of the section where a thicket of osageorange stood and I told Matt we'd come back. We did, an hour later. Walked in from the other side and I sat Matt down where I thought he might get a shot. He'd asked me if we could call a coyote back so soon after shooting at it. I told him I didn't know about anyone else, but I thought that I could. I started with a pair of very mournful howls and about five minutes later, a coyote crossed in front of me through the grass at about forty yards. I dumped it and when Matt came over, we rolled it over. Lo and behold, mangy left hip. Go figure. That one was to impress him. LMAO.

Having said any and all of that, the bigger question I have is how many times has Scott perused this thread looking for someone's words to parse so he can prove them "wrong" and himself "right"? Everyone is being so carefulhow they word their responses. LOL Looks to me like the only way we're gonna see a "game" here is if one of these new guys jumps into the ring.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on August 31, 2010, 06:23 PM:
 
Cdog I haven't seen the down wind issue being one of just howling, they trust their nose and eyes as much if not more than their ears! I have had plenty of coyotes come down wind to distress sounds. In the reverse some agressive coyotes in the summer time come straight into howl and pup in distress with no attention paid to wind and going down wind. Not all on either account and at times finishing with a howl can be the golden ticket even when starting out with a distress.

I have found with th e caller at times hiding it with terrain or vegitation can bring those coyotes to the only knob and give you the shot opportunity you are looking for as you know where they will end up and look for what their ears told them is supposed to be there.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 31, 2010, 07:35 PM:
 
Before I met Scott and Randy I used lone howls at the beginning of my stands hopeing to convince other coyotes that another coyote was in their terr. eating their rabbits..I had great success doing so but I found out by looking through my log books I was calling in and killing mostly adult coyotes and if I did get a YOY it was with an adult at the time it was taken.. Randy kinda openned my eyes to what was takeing place and I have since stopped useing howls at the beginning of a stand and save them for later on in the stand.. It really paid off cause I was getting more younger coyotes to come in on my stands.. On the same note if a caller wants to remove the adults first from a area then a caller could benifit by starting out with howls..
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 03, 2010, 10:54 PM:
 
TA: "I have since stopped useing howls at the beginning of a stand and save them for later on in the stand.. It really paid off cause I was getting more younger coyotes to come in on my stands."

Are you of the belief that any howl will intimidate a young coyote?

I was on a stand a few days ago. Knew the pups were there. Started out with an adult howl hoping the adults would show up first since the pups are getting a little more difficult to differentiate from adults based on their size at this time of year. Guess what showed up? Yup, those pups that were supposed to be intimidated. I guess they didn't know what was expected of them.

Maybe I sounded like their rich uncle?

KJ: "I agree with Cal, The lastest FP coyote vocals are more productive in my area than most of the WT coyote sounds."

I don't know how the FP coyote sounds can be more productive than the WT coyote sounds because you can't get any more realism in a recorded adult coyote vocalization than WT puts out. The new FP units may have some adult coyote vocalizations (howls) that are just as good as the best WT sounds. To date I haven't heard them. I'm simply saying, you are going to have to prove to me that they are BETTER than the best WT sounds.

Lots of variables to isolate before you can credit one factor.

ON a different topic, I often wonder how those "estrus chirpers" are doing in comparison with the rest of the calling world?

~SH~

[ September 03, 2010, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 04, 2010, 04:53 AM:
 

quote:

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I don't know how the FP coyote sounds can be more productive than the WT coyote sounds because you can't get any more realism in a recorded adult coyote vocalization than WT puts out. The new FP units may have some adult coyote vocalizations (howls) that are just as good as the best WT sounds. To date I haven't heard them. I'm simply saying, you are going to have to prove to me that they are BETTER than the best WT sounds.

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So in your years of experience, you haven't found that one dying wabbit recording (for whatever reason) seemed to out produce a different dying wabbit recording? I personally am not saying they are "better" because I haven't played with the WT sounds much. But possibly Kelly has and and for him one out produces the other. I know that I have several pup distress sounds (all real) and one outshines all the others in coyote reaction. Damned if I know why, but it does. They all sound similar to me. But they don't to a coyote!

[ September 04, 2010, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 04, 2010, 06:35 AM:
 
3 toes: "So in your years of experience, you haven't found that one dying wabbit recording (for whatever reason) seemed to out produce a different dying wabbit recording?"

No, I'm saying that in my years of experience I have seen too many variables that contribute to success or failure to be able to isolate on specific factor and credit it to success or failure.

I am not saying that one recording can't outproduce another. I'm saying that you would have to isolate every other factor in order to attribute success to it.

For example, if you just happened to use sound #1 on days when it was calm and clear and you just happened to use sound #2 on days when it was balmy, sound #1 would reach more coyotes than sound #2 creating the perception that sound #1 was better. Was it?

Another example, if you just happend to use sound #1 in areas with limited calling pressure and you happened to use sound #2 in areas with a lot of calling pressure, it would appear that sound #1 outproduced sound #2. Did it?

Another example, if you just happened to use sound #1 on days when coyotes were moving and you happened to use sound #2 on days when coyotes were not moving, it would appear sound #1 outperformed sound #2. Did it?

Too many variables to draw hard fast conclusions of one sound outproducing another.

It's like listening to some trapper tell me, "this is a real good lure". I can list 20 variables that would bias that opinion so fast it would make your head spin. Wind direction, humidity, coyote population, prey availability, human disturbance, etc. etc.

I'm not buying it without knowing if the variables could be isolated.

~SH~

[ September 04, 2010, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 04, 2010, 07:59 AM:
 
Coming in on this one late here, I’ve only picked up on the new tangent of FP/WT sounds. As for the original question posed in the title of the thread: I howl from September to March. I apply howls of various aggression and frequency throughout the year with good results. I do not allow my own logical assumptions to determine which sounds I’ll use and when… I continually dabble until I find a niche that exploits the triggers of my coyotes at “THAT” time. I expect it to change throughout the season to some degree as coyotes mature and develop more life experiences but this pattern holds fairly close from year to year. Generally speaking, there is usually a howl that will work.

For years the Foxpro vs. Wildlife Tech debate has raged online: primarily driven by people who never tested/used the unit they claimed was inferior or those with an agenda to wear a hat.
An unbiased side-by-side comparison was quite enlightening IMHO, as WT had every base thoroughly covered (Volume/Sound/Quality/Remote/ect). One company and its ownership have been very unpopular online while the other is quite trendy and well received in the mainstream. I think this has played a major role in stirring discussion on internet forums that equated FP & WT: but to me there has never been a comparison in the actual product.

It wasn't until March of this year that I heard/saw a Foxpro unit that was reasonably close (in my own opinion of what makes a good caller) to Wildlife Technologies. The sounds that Cal Taylor, Steve Dillon and others (?) assembled are top notch. It doesn’t take a long list of variables to determine that those sounds could consistently kill coyotes for us mediocre recreationalists.

Again, driven primarily by my positive & negative experiences with using various WT sounds on coyotes over the years… I look for a handful of indicators in a sound. Sometimes that is intensity in a distress cry; sometimes it is throatiness in a vocalization. Whatever it is, it has proven to trigger a spark in my coyotes over the years. Those little indicators are evident in several of the new Foxpro sounds, perhaps even amplified in some cases beyond what we’ve seen in the WT library. I believe there is a coyote pup sound in the new Foxpro library that would outperform the legacy WT pups. Just a hunch. There are also a few vocals and a couple distress sounds that hold incredible potential in dealing with coyotes in my area. I wish I had the time to invest in testing the new Foxpro sound library the way I have WT in the past. I’m sure there are some real “button pushers” in there.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 04, 2010, 08:43 AM:
 
It is no accident that Clay Reid, Kelly Jackson, and many other good coyote hunters find the CS-24 and the Foxpro 24 bit sounds superior to W.T. sounds. They are better from the word go.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 04, 2010, 01:28 PM:
 
Those variables are exactly what I'm talking about Wily. You, I, and a few others do this shit day after day after day in every condition with all variables thrown in. And you know as well as I do that certain trapping lures as well as certain sounds just continue to work again and again, better than some others that are usable in certain conditions. Sure, about anything will work in areas of high numbers and low pressure, but in the opposite conditions that we usually deal with, and the amount of time we spend in the hills, the cream always rises, whether its M44 lure, trap lure, or calling sounds.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 04, 2010, 03:15 PM:
 
I'm sure there is a lot of wisdom rattling around in this thread. The tried and true sound has comfort, no doubt, but scrolling through what is available, occasionally, and with due regard for the cosmic allignments, occasionally, it amounts to "something different" which turns the trick.

I am convinced that there is some Ford/Chevy loyalty in the WT versus Foxpro argument. But, nobody seems to know exactly where the WT studio quality sounds come from. On the other hand, with Byron, Cal and Dave, you can have an element of trust. At least we know these guys.

The quality of WT sounds has never been questioned, but the quality of Foxpro sounds has steadily improved to the point where I think parity exists? Knowing which button to push and when to do it will always be important, regardless of who's sounds you use.

I'm going to buy a CS24 and make sure I have sounds recorded by Cal and Dave. Why? Because I don't care to knock on Bill's door and put up with the bullshit.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 04, 2010, 06:33 PM:
 
I have Cal's coyote vocals on my own CS24, and they are awesome. His coyote pup distress recordings are very good also.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 05, 2010, 08:03 AM:
 
Possumal: "It is no accident that Clay Reid, Kelly Jackson, and many other good coyote hunters find the CS-24 and the Foxpro 24 bit sounds superior to W.T. sounds. They are better from the word go."

Better from the word go???

Can you present me the results of the side by side "Pepsi Challenge" tests you did to reach that conclusion?

Can you list all the different coyote populations, the different degrees of calling pressure and human disturbance, the different weather conditions, the different habitats, the different prey species available in different areas, the different seasons, etc. etc. that you did your side by side testing in to add credibility to your opinion?

Or...... could your opinion have something to do with the "FOX PRO FIELD STAFF" insignia?

Unless you did an extensive side by side test and tried to sort out the many variables that contribute to success or failure, I'll consider your opinion very biased.

Leonard: "I am convinced that there is some Ford/Chevy loyalty in the WT versus Foxpro argument."

Exactly! Along with who is humping whose leg and for what reasons.

3 Toes: "And you know as well as I do that certain trapping lures as well as certain sounds just continue to work again and again, better than some others that are usable in certain conditions."

I know that some trappers pay attention to the variables that contribute to success and failure and they try to sort out those variables. I also know a lot of trappers that continue to use what worked once without trying to determine whether something else would work just as good if not better. You can't argue that. I have been around too long. Doesn't matter whether it's sounds or smells. Trappers and callers become biased towards what worked once. Look how long it took for the calling world to transition from rabbit, to howling, to pup distress, etc.

Lets use M-44 bait tests as an example. Back in the early "90"s, I know three guys in Western SD that were testing different M-44 baits. Each guy had 225 - 300 coyotes per year on M-44s alone. Certain baits continued to outperform the others for all three men based on coyote reaction in snow, pulls in various weather conditions, pulls in different seasons, etc. etc. All three guys had respectables populations of coyotes at that time and all three had similar conditions to work with. From those tests we developed 2 - 3 M-44 baits that worked well for all of us and passed those formulas on to others. When those baits were tried by other trappers in other areas and other states, the opinions were as varied as the weather. Now did they work for some and not for others due to different variables or did they work for some and not for others because if they didn't work for them once for whatever reason, they were not given a fair test after that point?

Now if I was a betting man, I would bet that "trapper bias" played a bigger factor on those opinions than objective testing did. I know trappers and callers are no different. They become biased to what works. They continue to grab their favorite lures for their favorite locations and grab the test lures for those secondary spots and when the test lures don't work they are not tested again.

Does the cream rise to the top because it's better or because we believe it's better so we keep grabbing for it?

I tried an M-44 bait that was tried and true for the ND WS boys and it is now one of my best M-44 baits. The reason it's one of my best M-44 baits is because I gave the ND boys the benefit of the doubt. I trusted the formula enough to keep using it even when it didn't shine above what I had been using.

Trapper and caller bias is alive and well.

~SH~

[ September 05, 2010, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 05, 2010, 08:19 AM:
 
Hi Scott. I'm certainly not embarassed by my affiliation with Foxpro, but that connection did not lead me to make the statements about the CS-24, the Foxpro library, and obvious preference expressed by Clay Reid, Kelly Jackson, etc..

I had a W.T. unit and hunted it hard for three years, and experienced all the negative crap that the Unmentionable One can dish out, including out and out screwing friends of mine. The CS-24 and the improved Foxpro sound library, combined with the FHSS technology make Foxpro superior in all areas to the W.T. units. The units being programmable add lots to the superiority.

I am proud of Foxpro advertising the truth and actually having 24 bit sounds and an attitude that serves the customers. I also like the fact they offer variety to their customers instead of taking the attitude that they know best always.

Good hunting at ya.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 05, 2010, 10:55 AM:
 
Awhile back Andy asked other WT users what sounds work best for them on their WT and my reply was almost all of them that I have on my calling unit.. The same question was asked on another board and I gave the same answer and also got the same results with others saying that I should have a few favorite go to sounds or sounds that worked better over others.
Like Scott mentioned, time, weather conditions,the type of coyotes male, female, pups,have they been called before or burned and so on play a big role on what sounds I use.
Some sounds produce better on windy days over other sounds and viceversa for calm days. Some hard headed coyotes may require me to use a series of coyote vocals to bring them in close enough for a shot and yet these same sounds may send a coyote off into the other direction if used...
A caller needs to keep a open mind and not be affraid to use other sounds and keep useing them and not get hooked on just one or two sounds.
I will admitt I do have two sounds I don't use very often and they are pup in distress and challenge howl. They both work but found I can bring the coyotes in by useing other sounds from my library...
If you reread Scotts posts there are a few more Gold nugets in them...
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 05, 2010, 11:40 AM:
 

quote:

---

I tried an M-44 bait that was tried and true for the ND WS boys and it is now one of my best M-44 baits. The reason it's one of my best M-44 baits is because I gave the ND boys the benefit of the doubt. I trusted the formula enough to keep using it even when it didn't shine above what I had been using.

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So you are still admitting to having a favorite lure. Just as you have favorite sounds.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 05, 2010, 04:50 PM:
 
AL: "I had a W.T. unit and hunted it hard for three years, and experienced all the negative crap that the Unmentionable One can dish out, including out and out screwing friends of mine. The CS-24 and the improved Foxpro sound library, combined with the FHSS technology make Foxpro superior in all areas to the W.T. units. The units being programmable add lots to the superiority."

Al: "I am proud of Foxpro advertising the truth and actually having 24 bit sounds and an attitude that serves the customers. I also like the fact they offer variety to their customers instead of taking the attitude that they know best always."

Your point is taken from the standpoint that there is more reasons than sound quality to prefer one electronic call over the other. Durability, user friendly, customer service, price, lack of arrogance, etc. etc.

You will get absolutely no argument from me on that standpoint.

With that said, we still have one comparison left on the table. Will the Fox Pro sounds outperform the WT sounds in a side by side "Pepsi Challenge" test considering all of the variables that can lead to success and failure? I highly doubt it because I am very cognizant of the number of coyotes I call vs. the number available due to previous locating of those coyotes.

As mentioned previously, I believe the NEW Fox Pro electronic calls have some excellent distress sounds that are every bit as good as the WT distress sounds. Some may even be better. Where my opinion differs is on the coyote vocalizations. Due to my style of calling and the conditions I call under, certain coyote vocalizations are very important to my arsenal whereas, they might not be as important to the recreational coyote hunter where distress calls rule.

Again, I would not cry too many tears if I was given no choice but to use the new Fox Pro unit but the new Mighty Atom is a much better unit than the old WTs.

I only have two criticisms of the new WT units. First, I would like to see bigger thumb knobs to unscrew the cap from the battery area and I would like to see more room between those thumb screws and the handle. Second, I would like to see a better seal on the battery compartment cap for wet conditions. Outside of that, the new Mighty Atom is a huge improvement over the older unit which, as I said, proves that the old units needed improving.

The old saying, "The Customer is always right" is very true. Where did arguing with a customer ever get a salesman?

Cal: "So you are still admitting to having a favorite lure. Just as you have favorite sounds."

Absolutely but I didn't get to a favorite M-44 bait without extensive testing which considered the many variables that can lead to success or failure. 750 coyotes per year for three men, year round, under varying conditions is about as good of representation as you are going to get. That's a far cry from someone saying "that lure really works good" just because it worked once then was grabbed first from thereon.

My M-44 bait search was far more extensive than my sound search. I found success with certain electronic and hand-held call sounds and kept using them. So bias towards certain sounds exists even with me when I am as cognizant of the variables as anyone can be. I might have found more success in certain situations with other sounds had I not been biased towards the sounds I prefer.

For instance, I have had other WT users tell me about the successes they had with certain sounds. I have used those same sounds and didn't seem to have the same level of success that I did with my usual favorites so I don't use them much. I'm still searching for those silver bullets and when to apply them especially in areas of heavy calling pressure which is usually identified after the fact. LOL

The more one learns about this game, the more you realize how much there is to learn. The bottomless pit of knowledge and understanding is in the area of learning how CERTAIN coyote behavior changes from area to area and from season to season while some habits remain the same.

Consider yourself fortunate to be in an area of high sheep production where you are really challenged to produce certain coyotes. That situation will force your learning curve far more than someone doing wildlife protection work or recreational calling on cattlemen in the summer where you are just doing population reduction at your own leasure. I live for those challenges.

~SH~

[ September 05, 2010, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 05, 2010, 05:41 PM:
 
I like to think that (for some of us) hunt contests help distill methods and practices. That is the yardstick I use in evaluating performance. Animals called and bodycount.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 05, 2010, 07:24 PM:
 

quote:

---

As mentioned previously, I believe the NEW Fox Pro electronic calls have some excellent distress sounds that are every bit as good as the WT distress sounds. Some may even be better. Where my opinion differs is on the coyote vocalizations. Due to my style of calling and the conditions I call under, certain coyote vocalizations are very important to my arsenal whereas, they might not be as important to the recreational coyote hunter where distress calls rule.

---

But since you haven't heard or used the newest coyote vocalizations released by FoxPro in the last couple years and they haven't been through your stringent testing how can you make a blanket statement that the WT coyote vocalizations are better? I'm not here to argue caller A vs caller B, but the sounds that I have been releasing to FoxPro and the ones we are working on now are higher sound quality than WT's, and through my (and several other guys that do this for a living also, like you) testing and hundreds of dead ADC coyotes, I can say that, in my opinion, WT has NOTHING on FP in actual coyote vocalizations. You are the one that began this with the opinion that new stuff comes up and needs tested all the time, in lures etc. so my opinion is that you need to test all the new vocalizations out by FP and develop your own opinion on the effectivness of them. Give them a fair shake and you will be pleasantly surprised.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 05, 2010, 08:22 PM:
 
Yes, Cal, and I would appreciate a list from you as to the sounds you recommend. Send me an email, okay? I need to get my CS24 ordered pretty quick.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 06, 2010, 08:05 AM:
 
3 Toes: "But since you haven't heard or used the newest coyote vocalizations released by FoxPro in the last couple years and they haven't been through your stringent testing how can you make a blanket statement that the WT coyote vocalizations are better?"

There is two parts of that paragraph that were taken out of context with what I stated previously.

1. I didn't say I hadn't heard any of the new Fox Pro sounds Cal. This past spring myself and another ADC man were in a room at a meeting and played through the latest Fox Pro and WT sounds. To my trained ear, I didn't hear any Fox Pro coyote vocalizations that were any better than my favorite WT coyote vocalizations. For clarification, I am talking about a comparison between the adult coyote howls.

Now here's the disclaimer. If this Fox Pro unit did not have all the coyote vocalizations (howls) or if there has been new coyote vocalizatoins that have come out since then, then yes I would certainly like to hear them.

Now as far as stringent side by side testing, I think with all my years of ADC calling and competition calling in numerous states, I have a pretty good idea what a quality coyote vocalization sounds like which is the same reason why I stated that I believe one of your distress sounds would be killer and is better than anything I have. I am giving credit where it's due here. I know coyote howls like a mother knows the cry of her own baby. You should give me that much in return.

2. I did not say WT coyote vocalizations are better. I said and meant that, based on what I heard, I still preferred the coyote vocalizations (howls) that I already have with the WT.

Next, please consider that I have no loyalty to any particular company other than what I believe will work best. I don't have any biases here. As a matter of fact, I have dealt with the same "the company is always right" WT attitude that others have dealt with. My bias is only towards what I believe will work best for my style of calling.

To elaborate further, a side by side "Pepsi Challenge" type test would certainly sort out which distress calls would work better. As I mentioned previously, I have no doubts that the results of comparing distress calls between the two calls would be comparable.

Regarding the coyote howls, I would like to do a side by side field comparison on them as well but based on how many coyote vocalizations I have heard over the years, I seriously doubt I would see much difference.

I'm not going to run out and buy a FP if it's just as good as what I have. I would only be interested if it's proven to me to be better.

2 Toes: "....the sounds that I have been releasing to FoxPro and the ones we are working on now are higher sound quality than WT's, and through my (and several other guys that do this for a living also, like you) testing and hundreds of dead ADC coyotes, I can say that, in my opinion, WT has NOTHING on FP in actual coyote vocalizations.

So are you saying you compared the two side by side? If not, then you are just as guilty of what you are accusing me of. Haha! You know as well as I do that you have more bias in this than I do.

So tell me Cal, what makes you believe the sounds you are releasing to Fox Pro and the sounds you are working on now are higher quality than WT sounds?

To my way of thinking, there is a lot of factors that contribute to sound quality. You can have the highest quality recording equipment going but if the vocalization you are recording is not the classic "Hey, who is out there" coyote howl that I need, I might not get the reaction I am looking for. I've located coyotes in many states and I know what turns them on and I have a real good idea, based on sign and what I've killed, how many coyotes I could expect to answer me.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I am only saying you are going to have to prove it to me because I've heard sales pitches before and you know I'm not a follower.

To be perfectly clear, without further testing, I have not heard a Fox Pro coyote howl yet that I liked better than the WT sounds I am currently using and unless you can prove to me that they are better than the WT vocalizations, I have no reason to change.

As far as I'm concerned there is not a lot of room for improvement with the WT coyote vocalizations from the new Mighty Atom.

Think about this, consider how many coyotes have been called up with the piss poor FP flashlight sounds that you used to use. I have no doubts a higher percentage could be called with better quality sounds but I'm not so foolish as to deny the level of success that was achieved with poor recordings. The WT sounds are a lot better quality than that.

Sorry Pal, I ain't biting yet.

~SH~

[ September 06, 2010, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 06, 2010, 08:52 AM:
 
I've seen that F-P has a female invite recording that was recorded by Bill Austin. How would you F-P users rate this sound? clarity, and loudness..
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 06, 2010, 08:57 AM:
 

quote:

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So tell me Cal, what makes you believe the sounds you are releasing to Fox Pro and the sounds you are working on now are higher quality than WT sounds?

---

quote:

---

So are you saying you compared the two side by side? If not, then you are just as guilty of what you are accusing me of. Haha! You know as well as I do that you have more bias in this than I do.

---

quote:

---

To my way of thinking, there is a lot of factors that contribute to sound quality. You can have the highest quality recording equipment going but if the vocalization you are recording is not the classic "Hey, who is out there" coyote howl that I need, I might not get the reaction I am looking for. I've located coyotes in many states and I know what turns them on and I have a real good idea, based on sign and what I've killed, how many coyotes I could expect to answer me.

---

quote:

---

So tell me Cal, what makes you believe the sounds you are releasing to Fox Pro and the sounds you are working on now are higher quality than WT sounds?

---

Once again, the actual digital quality of the recording, and as the second factor, the guys that are testing them and using them before they are released. Usually, myself and two other trappers in the neighboring county (both of which you also know). A small test, I know. But actual coyote reaction to sounds is the final determining factor. I have had sounds and howls that to my ears sounded like exactly what I wanted and had poor coyote reaction, and to the opposite, sounds I wasn't that impressed with that produced consistant good results. Why, I don't know. Like a wise man once said, "only the yippers know, and they ain't talking!"

quote:

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Sorry Pal, I ain't biting yet.

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quote:

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Cal, send me a list of your recommended sounds. I'm ready to order

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YOU WANT FRIES WITH THAT?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 06, 2010, 11:31 AM:
 
I'm getting a free buckethead!
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 06, 2010, 11:35 AM:
 
I'll get on it today Leonard!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 06, 2010, 12:26 PM:
 
I'd appreciate that list too Cal.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 06, 2010, 12:30 PM:
 
Got it! Thanks Cal, appreciate it. ElBee.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 06, 2010, 12:58 PM:
 
3 Toes: "I have heard the WT coyote sounds. Several of them while hunting with you!"

I'll take that as a "NO" that like me, you have not done a side by side "Pepsi Challenge" comparison.

3 Toes: "I have spent untold amounts of time recording and picking through recordings to find the howl or howls that I want. Same with the pup distress sounds."

I have no doubts that your efforts were a great contribution to the company.

3 Toes: "But I give them alot of credit for having the desire and talent to move forward from the sounds they originally started with and to move from the old flashlight model to what we have now."

No doubt and I can say the same for the "Mighty Atom".

3 Toes: "As a indicator, ask your pilot to ask his dad who he thinks is the most likely in all the guys he flys for (and has ever flown for) to get more coyotes to howl and locate for the plane."

That's good. As it should be. You can ask your pilot to ask his son the same question or his gunner.

Just as I have personal goals in coyote calling competitions, I have goals while aerial hunting. Each time that plane flies for me, if ground conditions are favorable, it is my personal goal to spot or locate 30% - 50% of the coyotes that are killed with the plane. I have achieved that goal many times.

I'll make you a friendly wager right now that I could go in anywhere behind you with the WT and get the same coyotes to answer on a following day as long as you left them alone after they answered you. I had visions of you with a Gatling gun before I finished the sentence. I'll send the Sherriff along with you to keep you honest......I suppose I'll have to do a background check on him too. LOL!

~SH~

[ September 06, 2010, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2010, 01:27 PM:
 
Scott, I am not sure if anybody is going to run your idea of the "Pepsi challenge" to satisfy your quest for these particular answers. I ran all the tests I needed to know which caller was the best, but that is for my needs.

I wonder if Kelly Jackson, Clay Reid, etc. ran such a test before choosing the CS-24, Foxpro sounds, and a superior remote? I'll bet you'd have a tough time getting them to switch back.

Being able to put sequences that suit me on my ecaller, as well as individual sounds, is a big advantage, IMO.

Good hunting at ya.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 06, 2010, 02:10 PM:
 

quote:

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I'll make you a friendly wager right now that I could go in anywhere behind you with the WT and get the same coyotes to answer on a following day as long as you left them alone after they answered you.

---

quote:

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I wonder if Kelly Jackson, Clay Reid, etc. ran such a test before choosing the CS-24, Foxpro sounds, and a superior remote? I'll bet you'd have a tough time getting them to switch back

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Put these same guys in another state that dose'nt have such high numbers and I bet they will have second thoughts on their choice..
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 06, 2010, 02:31 PM:
 

quote:

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I'll make you a friendly wager right now that I could go in anywhere behind you with the WT and get the same coyotes to answer on a following day as long as you left them alone after they answered you. I had visions of you with a Gatling gun before I finished the sentence. I'll send the Sherriff along with you to keep you honest......I suppose I'll have to do a background check on him too. LOL!

---

I wouldn't use the gatling gun Wily, but watch out for claymores left behind in the road!

And not to sound stupid, but who the hell is Clay Reid that Al keeps bringing up? And why would his opinion be important?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 06, 2010, 03:04 PM:
 
OMG! I thought I was the only dummy who didn't know who Clay Reid is! He must know his shit if Al is carrying his water.

Now, the big question right now. I ordered from APC, but I didn't see any way to include the feature for switching after a shot is fired? What is that, and how do I include it on my Prairie Blaster?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2010, 03:19 PM:
 
Leonard, Foxbang has to be installed at Foxpro, either on an originally ordered CS-24, Prairie Blaster, or when sent in later. You get a few other features included like Foxfade.
 

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Posted by luckyjack (Member # 3462) on September 06, 2010, 03:21 PM:
 
Elbee, you ordered the Prairie Blaster? My brother had one of those for about a week. That thing was a brute of a caller. Damn loud too. He said it was just to big and heavy for his liking. I think he bought a Fury or CS24.

Edit: Never heard of Clay Reid either.

[ September 06, 2010, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: luckyjack ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 06, 2010, 04:37 PM:
 

quote:

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And not to sound stupid, but who the hell is Clay Reid that Al keeps bringing up?

---

If you have'nt been to P.M. board you may not know him. If I remember correctly he is a big time caller in Texas, does alot of contest hunts and finishes out on top. He really loves to beat his chest and talk about fox-pro.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 06, 2010, 04:40 PM:
 
Isn't Clay Reid the guy who lights Kelly's cigars for him???

Sorry..............That was to easy to pass up. I'll go to my room now. (But if you 'google' clay reid & scroll down to the 'images' & click on the middle-ish one;
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2010, 04:49 PM:
 
Here is a post made by Clay Reid in March 2010:

Well I finished 3rd this weekend in the Aspermont Texas calling contest with 5 bobcats and 1 stinking coyote .
since ive changed from the Wildlife Tech to the Foxpro CS-24 Ive finished 1st in the Graham Texas hunt.
3rd in the Weatherford Texas hunt .
3rd in the Henrietta Texas hunt
3rd in the Aspermont hunt and my boy won the Henrietta Texas youth hunt .
Im really starting to like this caller more and more . Foxpro has really come a long ways in its sounds . The Ranting Redbird is a cat getting son of a gun .
Plus I used it in the rain without any problems this weekend . Thats always high on my list . DURABILITY .
Clay Reid
_________________________
Graham TX calling champion 09
Archer City TX calling champion 09
Abiline Tx calling champion 09
Bluegrove Tx calling champion 09
Graham TX Jan.calling champion 10
Graham TX Feb. calling champion 10

Says quite a bit, don't you think?
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 06, 2010, 05:04 PM:
 
Clay seems to be a pretty good dude, just got acquainted to him about a year ago myself. Real deal kinda guy, won a lot of contest (Graham/Abiline/ect) I think he was a diehard WT fan until he experienced some frustration with the ATOM (and Martz) late last winter during a contest. I suppose he made the switch to Foxpro then? I'd venture to say that any Foxpro touting he is doing... is geared toward revenge as much as anything.

I hope to take Clay up on his offer and get down there for a hunt this winter (if Kelly leaves his ammo at home?) to see how it’s done in Texas. He organizes a popular predator hunt near Archer City that I'd love to attend sometime... info linked (HERE) for those interested.

Anyway, the names affiliated with these products only tell us that there is deep credibility *AND* blatant partisanship on both sides of the coin. Now that Foxpro has a product in the same league as WT, you'll see a few more open-minded folks from the old WT regime carrying them. Ironically, the improvement of sounds will probably result in fewer additional sales than the addition of bells & whistles like Foxfade/Foxbang/ect.

By the way… can we now add Al Morris to the list with Affleck & Taylor?
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 06, 2010, 05:10 PM:
 
I replied to PossumAl in an e-mail also, This Clay may be a wonderful fella and good caller, I have no idea. The Texas contests don't mean much to me. I think they have one every other day in most of those places.

quote:

---

By the way… can we now add Al Morris to the list with Affleck & Taylor?

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Who the hell is Al Morris?
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 06, 2010, 05:14 PM:
 
Posted at the same time Al.

Yes his resume is quite impressive, but I belive (could be wrong) that he won the bulk of those titles with a Wildlife Technologies caller. I recall his blowup with Martz was about six months ago (same time as the post you pasted) and it wouldn't surprise me if he's been pounding the Foxpro drum ever since.

I remember being at an awards ceremony where my wife was being honored as "Teacher of the Year" and an email came into my phone as she walked up to the stage. It was notifying me that our NPHA moderators had pulled my friend's post (turned out to be Clay) at his own request. Seemed he went a little overboard on his frustration with Martz and thought better of it later. If not for that unique memory stuck in my head, I'd be clueless about his choice in electronic callers just like everyone else.

He's a real hunter that knows how to kill coyotes, unquestionable.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 06, 2010, 05:15 PM:
 
Cal, forward me that email you sent to Leonard and I'll reply with a resume for Al Morris.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 06, 2010, 05:26 PM:
 

quote:

---

Yes his resume is quite impressive, but I belive (could be wrong) that he won the bulk of those titles with a Wildlife Technologies caller.

---

You are correct Jason he did win those titles with his WT and I have not seen any new wins posted since he switched over to F-P.

Says quite a bit, don't you think Al???
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 06, 2010, 05:42 PM:
 
I know who Clay is. I was just thinking that he didn't even own a Kelly "Bucket Head" kit when he won all of those contests. Just think what a motor scooter he would be if he had one of those kits.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2010, 06:02 PM:
 
Tim, I can only go by the man's post. He clearly says that after switching from the W.T. unit, he had won the listed events.

That does show me a lot.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 06, 2010, 07:59 PM:
 

quote:

---

1st in the Graham Texas hunt.
3rd in the Weatherford Texas hunt .
3rd in the Henrietta Texas hunt
3rd in the Aspermont hunt and my boy won the Henrietta Texas youth hunt .

---

quote:

---

Graham TX calling champion 09
Archer City TX calling champion 09
Abiline Tx calling champion 09
Bluegrove Tx calling champion 09
Graham TX Jan.calling champion 10
Graham TX Feb. calling champion 10

---

quote:

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Clay Reid
Woodsman

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 172
Loc: Archer City Wildlife tech is the best out there .
Volume , Clarity and sounds .
I have a foxpro and ive put it in the box to ship it back .
_________________________
Graham Predator Calling Champion 09
Abiline Predator Calling Champion 09
Archer City Predator Calling Champion 09
Bluegrove Predator Calling Champion 09
Graham January Predator Calling Champion 10
Graham February Predator Calling Champion 10

---

quote:

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Clay Reid
Woodsman

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 172
Loc: Archer City I would have elaborated more but I didnt wanna be ambushed by a bunch of foxpro supporters .
If your a casual hunter you can call and have success with just about any of them but if your interested in getting serious about predator hunting this toy will help you with the learning curve . put it out there , sun to your back , wind in your face and give er he--. if their there they will come .
Any more questions give me a call 940-631-8820 . Ive hunted with most all of them {Minaska , Game Traks , Foxpro, Compucaller Etc Etc . }. i can give you my opinion and thats about all its worth .
_________________________

---

Well now we know how he really feels..
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 06, 2010, 09:04 PM:
 
Guys,

I'm not an ADC hunter or even what some would consider a good predator hunter, but I've been at this for many years. I enjoy it, it doesn't pay my bills like for some here.

The way I see this is if an electronic caller has superior circuits and sound quality, the difference must be in the speaker reproducing the sounds. For many years now WT has used a superior speaker in their units... the TOA series which are found in both today. Now if that is indeed the difference in overall performance the only other possible scenario for one caller being better would be the sounds used.

We have all(most of us)used or heard Johnny Stewart sounds on records,tape or digital yet these much older and often lower fidelity sounds still produce very well. Given that as corroborating evidence I say the sounds themselves have to be the real working factor. Maybe it's just their cadence, I don't know.

We've heard in this thread of and from some of the very best of the very best that are around today and they seem to agree that one particular sound will often produce better than another, yet even these fellas can't substantiate their opinions with a scientific analysis.

Why? Because they can't tell us or 100% know what a given coyote will or will not respond to at any specified time and there is no way for them to test their theories on one coyote simultaneously. I wonder if you were to use a WT and a CS24 at the same location with the same sound from WT, then from Foxpro would a coyote come to one particular caller over the other.

Like has been said there are many variables.

By my way of seeing this, wouldn't common sense tell us the best sound will produce better if reproduced by the best equipment and one that produces the most lifelike in sound frequency to the prey animal...

It all seems pretty simple to me! Best sounds and best reproduction of those sounds.

Everything else is about personal preference in bells and whistles. Sure would be nice if sounds were universally available so we as hunters could choose. That won't happen due to the cost of creating those sound files and one camp believing theirs is better than the other. I just don't buy into the hype from either crowd.

A coyote can hear into the 40,000hz range(scientifically proven)and none of these callers even come close to that... that has been scientifically proven, too!

I've got to get me one of those Buckhead kits!

Hey Tim... is yours lined with tin foil?

Nikonut

Edited: Sorry guys, sometimes my spelling sucks!

[ September 06, 2010, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 06, 2010, 10:31 PM:
 
Scott,
Here is what I know. I have used a WT and most of the coyote vocals in the four states I hunt each year. I get a better response with the new FP coyote sounds, than I do with the WT coyote vocals and coyote distress. If I didn’t the FP would be in the closet instead of the WT.
I may not be using the WT coyote sounds correctly. Compared to most on here, even though I have been chasing coyotes awhile I am an infant in comparison to the time spent afield.
I try to make 400-500 stands a year and manage to kill some coyotes each year.
At the end of the day, it makes no difference to me what sounds, call, or rifle a man is using.
If he is happy I am happy.

To All - Clay’s a friend of mine, and I have hunted a few contests with him. He would give you the shirt off his back, but he lives for the contest. He is balls to the wall and fully understands that a contest is a timed event.
I had just as soon hunt against him as with him. We argue too much about what triggers coyotes between stands. He’s opinionated as hell and I am right, so there you go.

Tim – why in the hell would I want to go hunt somewhere there isn’t a lot of coyotes???
I do this for fun, I already have a job.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 07, 2010, 04:57 AM:
 

quote:

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Tim – why in the hell would I want to go hunt somewhere there isn’t a lot of coyotes???
I do this for fun, I already have a job.

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quote:

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Clay Reid
_________________________
Graham TX calling champion 09
Archer City TX calling champion 09
Abiline Tx calling champion 09
Bluegrove Tx calling champion 09
Graham TX Jan.calling champion 10
Graham TX Feb. calling champion 10

Says quite a bit, don't you think?

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quote:

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That is one of the LEAST well thought out intelligent statements I have ever seen on the internet! Haha.

Couldn't be the western experience? Couldn't be the large ranches? Couldn't be the friendships made over the years? Couldn't be a change of scenery from MN corn stubble? Couldn't be the terrain features? Naaaah! Had to be the coyote populations that are recovering from mange.

Heck Cal, he's driving by AS MANY coyotes or more in Eastern SD.

If coyote population was the only factor, he'd go to the Powder River basin in N Wyoming. Hahaha!

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When the plane is going in to central SD and having 50 and 60 coyote days I say that is a reasonably large population. I realize this isn't country that isn't being worked excessively, but the numbers don't lie. I'm fairly certain that the calling would be better there than Minnesota. But then again, I've never called Minnesota. You could be entirely correct about eastern SD also and the coyotes he is driving through. I try to stay out of eastern SD if at all possible!

[ September 07, 2010, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 07, 2010, 03:26 PM:
 
Why is that? Why are you avoiding eastern SD? For sure, it's not because of warrants for speeding! Bwahahaha! Get it?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 07, 2010, 06:17 PM:
 
IMPORTANT UPDATE!

Leonard (me) apparently doesn't know there is a big difference between "Prairie Blaster" and the "CS24L Krakatoa"? Well, he does now and the former is not what I wanted. I ordered a CS24L but mistakenly called it a Prairie Blaster....a senior moment. Please excuse. And, don't tell Dan, he gives me enough shit, already.

Good hunting. LB

edit: get the joke? Cal never got a speeding ticket in his life, like AR Shaw.

[ September 07, 2010, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 07, 2010, 06:40 PM:
 
Yes Eastern S.D. has some good numbers in a few places. I proved that back in 09 when I had a seven coyote day. I do alot of scouting when driveing through the state I know where they have good fox numbers as well as coyotes but they are in small pockets .. N=E is a pretty good area and heard it gets hit pretty good by the plane..
Reason why I don't spend much time on the eastern side is too many doors to knock on, can't call some areas while deer or pheasant season is going on, pick-up cowboys chaseing the coyotes. The coyotes are still callable but youre stands will get busted when they come driveing through. My time is limited so I don't want to be driveing around knocking on doors or trying to find a rancher who went to town for coffee and he has a shit load of coyotes that you don't want to pass up on..

I worked in central S.D. back in 85, I met a heck of a nice rancher who invited me to hunt antelope on his ranch. Back then there where antelope by the 1000 and most likely 10 times that in coyotes.. Long story short they had a bad snow-storm that almost wiped the antelope out and 1000's of coyotes with one less food source..It was calling heavon for a few years then they brought the plane in and thinned them out some, then mange showed up and sent them for another big tumble. The nice thing about the rancher was he had neighbers and others friends who ranched and he would get ahold of them for me to get permission to hunt. The DNR also gave me a list of phone numbers of all the other ranchers which really helped plus I already had a hand full of references.. I don't hunt every ranch every year and get in contact with most of them over the phone before I make the drive out. Some don't even remember my name but they know me when they see me and they are happy I'm there to thin out a few coyotes..
Most of them are good people and if they catch me parking on a road looking over a map or what ever they always stop to check to see if I'm ok..
I also met Scott and Randy and Jerry H., Steve, colt, and a few other good guys while I have been hunting in the state..
I've had the chance to call coyotes in other states and non of them come close to the area I call in, you can set up a stand and call a coyote in and watch it most of the time and can learn from it and how it reacts to certain sounds and so on, Good place to learn about them.
I cover over 60 miles and the land makes a few changes as I go and I never get tired of looking at it.. Like I mentioned the numbers aren't what they used to be and you have to work a little harder but its worth it and I would'nt trade this place for a ranch in Texas..
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 07, 2010, 06:46 PM:
 

quote:

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Leonard (me) apparently doesn't know there is a big difference between "Prairie Blaster" and the "CS24L Krakatoa"? Well, he does now and the former is not what I wanted. I ordered a CS24L but mistakenly called it a Prairie Blaster....a senior moment. Please excuse.

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I noticed that when I read youre other posts and wanted to say something but I decided not to say anything for fear of being labeled a know it all..
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on September 07, 2010, 06:57 PM:
 
Scott, I haven't been on any forums for quite awhile. When I saw your post I had to respond. I am on the same page with you and nobody is going to convince me different. You can read and listen to all sorts of advice on howling and until you have spent countless hours in the field,like you, it doesn't sink in for the normal person. Consequently their howling is short lived and then back to the distress sounds. On just about every stand , I start out with some type of howl and it has been a normal routine of mine. I know the person I think you are talking about and that is my exact thoughts. If he would encorporate howling into his setups , I'm betting his success rate will come up drastically. That was a good post. I am not looking for an argument, just merely stating my thoughts on the subject. Have a good season everyone.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 08, 2010, 10:05 AM:
 
Just to clarify the status concerning Clay Reid, here are his current posts:

Let the record show that I have no ill feelings about Bill martz or any WT guys . For years I have used the WT caller religiously and made no bones about the fact it was the best out there . I still own the WT and love it .
over the last year though I have purchased the FOXPRO CS-24 caller and have used it every since . Not because im mad at anyone just because in my opinion its better than the WT .
The caller is just dang near the same caller but the remote is far superior and I can put My own sounds and others onto it pretty simply .
Some of the contests I won were using the WT but in 2010 I won these with the FOXPRO CS 24 .
Now this might not make a rats arse to most but I just dont want anyone thinking I have bad blood with the WT . Ive supported it for 12 years . You cant go wrong with either but for now this is my drug of choice when it comes to money on the line callers .
_________________________
Graham TX calling champion 09
Archer City TX calling champion 09
Abiline Tx calling champion 09
Bluegrove Tx calling champion 09
Graham TX Jan.calling champion 10
Graham TX Feb. calling champion 10

I sure would like to add World Champion at the bottom in December .
_________________________
Graham TX calling champion 09
Archer City TX calling champion 09
Abiline Tx calling champion 09
Bluegrove Tx calling champion 09
Graham TX Jan.calling champion 10
Graham TX Feb. calling champion 10

Yes, Tim, this tells me a lot.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 08, 2010, 11:13 AM:
 
We are sure getting all knowed up on Clay Reid, ain't we? Thanks Al.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 08, 2010, 11:39 AM:
 
Well 2 out of 6 ain't bad. Better watch out he might be after your job
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 08, 2010, 12:58 PM:
 
Dang another WT versus FP debate and where is Ol Bill. Really though we use what we think is best and have confidance in. I have used a WT,Minaska, and now a cs-24 they all called coyotes. The WT was a cluster Blank, hobb cobbed job, so I decided reliability was important as what good is a caller that don;t work 15% of the time? I went to a minaska worked great killed some coyotes with it, I still think they have the edge on remote to unit reliability no matter cover or terrain. Then bought a CS-24 some say just a copy of the WT, but the only thing the same is the TOA speaker which is aftermarket for both compaines.

The CS-24 has some great features and good volume. I have plenty of good spounds to choose from heck one of my best distress sounds is from a critter that you have to drive 2 hrs to find in my area, coyotes don't seem to care. I think the coyote vocals have come along way with FP and cal's help. The Pup in distress 3 is top notch for sure. The coyote pair sound is great early on in the spring, I have brought coyotes out of dense cover the plane couldn';t see with it. The female howl is a good one too, I had 2 coyotes on an island of dirt smack dab in the middle of a sunflower field and brought that male out to within 40 yards while the plane watched from above. That was a funny one the plane was getting reay to make a pass on this coyote and I shot it right before they where going to dive on it.

I think timing, presentation and hearing something different in areas of calling pressure all make a differance, could be one brand over the other and visa versa. We all use what we think is best and gets responses for us. I have no doubt as FP moves forward they will take the lead in coyote vocals as they are the type of company that if they have a weakness they will find away to make it not an issue anymore, many people beat on them for their sounds, so they decided to go out and get better sounds, makes good business sense and I have no doubt they will continue on.

As fas as the bill Austin sound well it has killed a pile of coyotes thru the years TA, no doubt about that. Heck I had a mouth call of a female coyote on my minaska that was killer in late winter and early spring, who knows why but something they did not hear before. Are actual sounds better? I would say for the most part yes. I have found myself using more mixed sounds with good results at times of the year. Each to his own.

For the record rouge wolf and lenons all call are 2 of my go to lures for trapping coyotes

I agree with Scott, Eastern SD has some very high coyote densitys, even after the plane has flown you can still find coyotes in many areas exspecially when most are doing recreation calling.

[ September 08, 2010, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 08, 2010, 01:06 PM:
 
"The caller is just dang near the same caller but the remote is far superior and I can put My own sounds and others onto it pretty simply"
---------------------------------------
That statement pretty much nailed the situation. Nobody has mentioned the FHSS technology that the CS-24 employs though. That technology is what allows the signal from the remote signal to cut through brush and such to reach the caller. Reliable remote control in less than ideal field conditions can really make a huge difference. Cal Taylor's new recordings of coyote vocals are priceless! Speaking of coyote vocals, I think I will record one of Jerry Hunsley's voice howls, and put it on my CS-24. Please don't tell Jerry though, I mean the guy is much bigger than me.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 08, 2010, 01:32 PM:
 
The other factor of a cs-24 I just ordered and put on 4 new sounds in less than 5 minutes from time of receiving them to the caller and remote!

2 newer coyote sounds, a killer hairy woodpecker and the adult cottontail. I betting that coyote sound will be a great locator and denning sound!
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on September 08, 2010, 05:27 PM:
 
Can you really put "champion" after winning a monthly contest?
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on September 08, 2010, 05:54 PM:
 
Back in the day, mouthcalls were the only reliable choice.

You had a rabbit in distress and a imagination.

Voice howls and crude howlers appeared to let a caller enter into a coyotes world of vocalizations.

Coyote communication and coyote distress.

Records of various animal recordings and then tapes of the same and it changed again. It just wasn't reliable in the field. Spent a fortune on batteries!!

Only some of the true pioneers, some old ADC guys, some not, tried to figure out what coyotes were saying or not saying and use it to their advantage. At this point a very exclusive club.

IMO the last 20 years of advancements in technology, sounds, etc has given a person with little or no calling experience an arsenal of options never available to those previous.

At the push of a button he can have a howl 4-5 times louder than any mouthcall not knowing to not sound to male or to macho. Doesn't have a clue to what he or she just did and it effected a huge area.

Anytime I am ever asked about the use of coyote vocalizations by recreational callers I recomend they use other sounds mainly distress because you know they will be pushin buttons and playin stuff that shouldn't be used.

You try to explain how at times coyotes fear coyotes, other coyotes may just want to avoid a confrontation and others want to kick your ass. It's the same priciple as not using my decoy dogs in the winter it hurts me more than helps me. If I knew they were all going to be the kick ass coyotes everytime I would use them year round but they are not.

You also try and explain how a higher population will make coyote vocals less of a risk for a negative reaction. Coyotes tend to be more territorial etc.

You explain the advantages of locating and knowing numbers. Did they act agressively to the locating sounds and come toward or answer with long drawn out responces and move away. Family group together, numerous groups, singles out in the middle of nowhere etc. What are they in terrain wise,and why. Many of those things determine what I will use sound wise. IMO again I believe this area and sounds associated should be expanded as your experience in the field does and not right from the get go.

With the options I have on my WT I do not feel the need to go to howls all the time, I may progress to that if I am not seeing a responce from the coyotes I expect but I usually don't start with it. I've seen plenty of coyotes react negatively to a howl in that timeframe and yes also some to rabbit screams as well. The difference is I can go to something other than rabbit or a scenario of something and usually find one that works.

There are a few on here that I've hunted with who could attest to a complete change of sounds once a coyote is seen and you realize you need to change tactics. I've went from using nothing but rabbit all day and killin coyotes to on the next stand howls and pup distress on a drainage with multiple coyotes in it. Why? Hell I don't know it seemed like the thing to do from what I heard from locating them.

You can go from prey to another predator other than a coyote etc only limited by your imagination until you'll hit on something. I found a sequence of three sounds last year in the late Feb to Mar timeframe that had pairs coming that would not respond to distress or howls, they would answer and show but not commit in this heavily called areas. Numerous pairs in numerous areas. There are very few virgin ears here.

It was also very interesting to work up and down the river breaks, nothing gets hunted harder, and watch reactions of numerous coyotes traveling up and down the ice interacting with the established coyotes. A high pitched drawn out howl with numerous coyotes in sight before you ever make a sound was not what they wanted. Soft distress got the best responce on the first visits taking the over eager younger coyotes first and working up to the older pairs as the trips in continued. Killing what came in and changing up next time conditions allowed, maybe the next day or could be days later. Never had a trip in there without killing multiple coyotes til the thaw made it impossible to get there.

You could see the coyotes that wanted nothing to do with another coyote. While also seeing the more dominate coyotes showing their strength. You saw coyotes with that pants down around their ankles look when they heard a howl and those that would hackle up come charging never breaking stride the whole way. I really don't see much of a difference how fast or how slow they come to whatever sound. Seems to be more of a reflection of the coyotes personality vs the sound IMO.

With all that being said do you really want to tell a guy who just bought this new shiny horn to start howlin? I would rather he got the distress aspect down to where he is killin with distress and polishin all the other aspects of the sport before getting into that. My opinion.

I see this as two different deals, a handcaller with limited options and a E Caller with many more. If I only had mouthcalls I would use vocals more often for some of exact reasons stated before.

With E Callers I am coming up with more options as I go and being able to see reactions in this country really helps. These sounds or scenarios of sounds are tough to see or find if your a guy with a Mon. thru Fri job with limited time in the field. Normal guy can't spend the time or resources to see it happen enough to draw a conclusion, not all, but most.You've got to be out there using it trying different things.

On the flip side of this the other 8 months or so I call I rarely if ever use prey distress. Occasionally but not very dam often. Go figure.

As for WT vs FP, it is a Ford Chevy deal, I like WT, especially this new MA , for over five years I have used it whenever I am calling whatever. Our guy in Chamberlain got the ball rolling for me with his results from using the original ones we got. Sure changed a lot since then. I wasn't sure I wanted to carry this dam thing around but I am sure glad I did now. Kind of feel naked without it now.

Cal, you mentioned you were using the 24 now. Did you use anything, E Caller wise, before the 24? Again hope FP realizes what an asset you are!!

Kelly, my offer still stands for Pepper! I got a Cur lookin for a girlfriend!
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 08, 2010, 07:44 PM:
 
Randy - about 10 days ago I got a good film clip of Pepper 2 days after she turned one I will show you sometime.
She worked 4 coyotes in on one stand like she had been doing it for years.
She may not do all I want a dog to do, but she sure has taken to working live coyotes.
I look forward to late Dec/Jan/Feb when I seem to call in alot of agressive pairs from this semi high density area. If she runs them off I will leave her at the house and carry the Jack.

I don't want to breed her yet, but may make you a deal later on. For now, I will keep feeding her and putting coyotes in front of her.

Stay after them
Kelly

edit cause I can't spell or type

[ September 08, 2010, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on September 09, 2010, 03:09 AM:
 
Great post Randy!
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on September 11, 2010, 10:49 PM:
 
See if this one makes any sense...

One time when I was a little boy I found a brand spanking new unsharpened pencil... I quickly sat down on a slab of concrete and began rubbing the end of the pencil on the flat rough surface to sharpen it. I had a great idea, to spit first on the concrete then sharpen' Spit again and rotate the pencil some more. Man that spittle and concrete worked well together. Next thing you knew, all the little boys were spitting and rubbing and spitting and rubbing because it was the most efficient way to sharpen a new pencil.

It was my idea by the way...I invented it!

P.S. Hey Scott, great to see you around! Guess what? My chick had another little critter - Esther Delores Food supply must be great, my chick is really fertile!
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 13, 2010, 09:09 AM:
 
Coyotes are social animals, period. Coyotes that are dispersing are in search of food, unoccupied habitat, and mates. The social behavior of ALL coyotes determines the importance of howling to their daily activities.

With that said, yes, loud agressive adult coyote howls can be a deterrant TO CERTAIN DISPERSING COYOTES UNDER CERTAIN SITUATIONS IF, I REPEAT "IF", you can actually isolate the loud agressive adult coyote howl as the deterrant as opposed to a plethora of other variables that deter coyotes in conjunction with that loud aggressive adult coyote howl. Many callers reach FALSE CONCLUSIONS when determining why coyotes react negatively to any given situation.

When a caller walks a short distance from a main traveled road, in a heavily called area, skylines themselves, walks all the way in on crunchy snow, then sits their ass down on a hill and blows a loud agressive adult coyote howl and watches as a young coyote moves away from them, you aren't going to convince me that this negative reaction was caused by the howl unless you can isolate the howl as the only deterrant.

Not to suggest that most callers make this mistake but many do. Enough that most opinions on what caused a coyote to move away are worth what you paid for them.

So what's the solution to not knowing what howls to use and when to use them? Simple, use a non agressive, non threatening younger coyote howl in each situation. If you don't know enough about coyotes to identify these howls and it's not labeled for you on your e-caller, you shouldn't be howling.

With the advent of electronics comes the advent of calls being labeled correctly by those selling them. During the peak of the dispersion, if you are working in areas with lots of young coyotes moving around and you are in doubt, use a young coyote howl. Problem solved. A NATURAL SOUNDING young coyote howl is not going to be a deterrant to a young dispersing coyote. If your howls don't sound natural, neither will your distress calls. There is a far better chance that you will run into a coyote that is educated to common distress calls that sound less than natural as opposed to howling that sounds less than natural. Even with educated coyotes, the odds are still in your favor to utilize howling. The advantages of howling mentioned previously will outweigh any disadvantages in most situations.

When I have seen a negative reaction from howling, I USUALLY credited the negative reaction to other factors rather than to the howl itself. Howling is simply too natural of an occurance to normal coyote behavior to be a deterrant in and of itself.

Here are some other variables to consider when trying to isolate coyote howling as a deterrant:

Where did the howl come from? Was it coming from the road (source of danger), a place of continous human activity (source of danger), was the howl preceeded by vehicle noise (source of danger), was the howl followed with being detected by the coyote, was the coyote heading in another direction anyway, too much volume to sound natural, too much distortion noise from a bad recording and cheap caller, too many coyotes in the area to elicit a response, etc., etc.

The list of legitimate deterrants is long and distinguished without isolating the howl as the means to a negative reaction.

It will be a rare occurance indeed when a negative coyote reaction can be acreditted to a howl of a young dispersing coyote. If young coyotes head the other way, there is a lot of reasons that are not even associated with the howl itself.

If coyote vocalizations are labeled incorrectly on e-callers, AS SOME HAVE BEEN, it won't be long until someone who understands coyote vocalizations will point out the inaccuracies to the manufacturer. Due to that fact, most coyote vocalizations are now correctly labeled.

As an example, one electronic call manufacturer originally labeled a submissive adult coyote vocalization as an adult coyote distress vocalization. Now it has been correctly labeled.

It can't be any simpler than pressing "young female coyote howl" on your e-caller or using a high pitched short howl on your hand calls. This isn't rocket science.

I am also not an advocate of using coyote vocalizations alone. I am talking about using them in conjunction with prey distress sounds to appeal to the highest percentage of coyotes.

When trying to appeal to the highest percentage of coyotes available, it's important to create a sound combination that appears natural such as a young dispersing coyote that just stumbled onto a rabbit. That's going to appeal to more coyotes in more situations than just the rabbit based on common sense. Most young dispersing coyotes are going to have to check that out unless they are not in the mood for anything or they know you are there. Some days the fish don't bite and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with the bait.

~SH~

[ September 13, 2010, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 13, 2010, 10:23 AM:
 
3 Toes: "When the plane is going in to central SD and having 50 and 60 coyote days I say that is a reasonably large population."

I agree but that is less than half of what they used to kill in a day in that same area in previous years (along the Missouri River -- before mange) and less than half of what they have killed in a day in some eastern SD counties with more open ground in recent years.

As a general "rule of thumb" (not etched in concrete), in SD the further west you go the less coyotes you will run into with the exception of the Cheyenne River break country but those coyotes are not as accessible by aircraft.

In most cases, the lowest coyote numbers are in the counties with the highest sheep numbers as it should be under legitimate predator control efforts. Historically, the highest coyote populations were along the river with the highest populations of that area being in the Southern counties. Mange changed that to a degree as well as coyote expansion into Eastern SD. Now there is pockets of coyotes in Eastern SD that are as good as they used to be along the Missouri River.

3 Toes: "I realize this isn't country that isn't being worked excessively, but the numbers don't lie."

I'm assuming you meant "....this IS country that ISN'T being worked excessively".

You are right, the numbers don't lie if the country is accessible to aerial hunting and coyote movements and hunting conditions are comparable.

The largest concentrations of coyotes also tend to yield the largest concentration of coyote calling experts. Figure that one out. LOL!

The Cheyenne River breaks can hold a lot of coyotes (pending mange) but they can be difficult to get out of the big cedar pockets with an airplane making some of those hunts less than what they would be in open country.

The highest coyote populations ever recorded was about 10 miles S. of Gillette this summer. Haha! Just razzin' yah.

Call me sometime in the near future. Have to visit with you about a potential employment opportunity for a friend of mine.

~SH~

[ September 13, 2010, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 13, 2010, 11:19 AM:
 
Good advice, Scott.

I agree with you about using coyote vocalizations exclusively, regardless of season. I always like to use both, with maybe 15%, 85% mix in favor of distress. Why? Can't tell you? I just think it is far easier to over do it with howls than prey sounds. Every time I howl, I'm taking a calculated risk, maybe excepting a lost pup sound. Even knowing what a specific howl represents, it seems to me that there will be coyotes receptive of the sound and maybe a couple that may react negatively...which is difficult to determine unless you have a visual on the coyote and personally, I don't like to howl when I have a coyote in sight; unless he's hung up behind a bush. And, in that case, I don't have a good solution anyway. Except resorting to extremely low volume distress sounds. It's amazing that they can hear muted sound from 500 yards that I can't hear from less than 50 feet.

Tell me again how dreadfull my voice howling is. I forget? lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on September 13, 2010, 12:31 PM:
 
Just wanted to say thanks to all those that contributed to this thread. It has been one of the more informative threads I have read in a long time.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 13, 2010, 12:35 PM:
 
Good read gentlemen a lot of good points here. I'm with Randy that when i'm talking to a recreational caller that hunts my area i tell them to keep to the distress sounds until later in the year but that is just me being selfish LOL and trying to make my job easier when i get the call for the ranches that he's hunting.

I have seen a negative reaction to howls or at least what i consider a negative reaction with young coyotes (more hang ups and really checking the situation out ect) i have had them run me over also though. I use howls but don't generally start off with one. They have there place and are a better tool for the guys that get to study their coyotes and know what they are dealing with as far as the coyotes in the area than it is for the competetion callers and "cold calling". Just my two cents good conversation.

P.S i don't care about the brand of callers if the sound is good it's good. I don't use electronics for any of my Howling, and my best distress sound is one that i recorded myself.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 13, 2010, 01:12 PM:
 
How often do you hear an uninitiated “I’m a dispersing nine month old coyote” type howl? Or for that matter, how often can you solicit a howl back from a dispersing nine month old coyote? I’ll assume that most newly dispersed coyote let their nose do the talking.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 13, 2010, 01:38 PM:
 
Good point Dennis.
I have a pup howl that I use and it works like magic in cold calling situations but to tell the truth Ive never heard a pup use a sound like that ever. so for me some things work some things dont and I dont always know why , and when I think I do I could be wrong!
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 13, 2010, 06:53 PM:
 
interesting posts............got my opinions on howling at fall coyotes. to many individual situations to start trying to cover all the bases. what works great in one area may or may not work another. Densities and pressure dictate what you can get away with. If you want to howl on every stand or distress call on every stand...........well if you think you got every situation covered doing the same thing every time you go out...oh and by the way....I got the CS-24 and the remote stinks in cold weather. to many issues to cover here. line of sight, hard to manipulate with gloves on, cold weather performance.............my opinion. Can't I get just a remote with about 5 sounds with a couple big buttons. great posts you guys.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 13, 2010, 06:59 PM:
 
coyotehunter, don't know what kind of problems you are having with the CS-24, but line of sight sure shouldn't be one. As far as 5 sounds go, why not set up your 10 presets to suit you and just use them. If you don't need 10, set up 5.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 13, 2010, 07:14 PM:
 
when its cold I have to be right on that thing or in direct line of sight. flat will not work otherwise. I mean cold.................North Dakota cold not Texas cold. I know I can set the presets up........why do I need all that geewiz stuff on a remote. they have plum over thought the whole thing. looks cool and I am sure the engineers enjoy playing with it in the office but out in the field with gloves on it is just a irratation. I do like the caller/speaker a bunch though. loud and clear.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 13, 2010, 07:33 PM:
 
Tundra Wookie (Snowcamoman) has had no problems whatsoever hunting in Alaska, easily as cold as N. Dakota and then some. He shared the idea some time ago of putting the clear stick on buttons on the remote keys, making it much easier to operate in extremely cold weather. I do the same thing and it helps in any weather, IMO. Helps you find the numbers by feel. As far as line of sight, something is wrong there. That is what the FHSS technology is all about. I have never had the thing fail. If you are having that kind of problem, you need to contact Foxpro and they'll take care of you. That is not a common problem. I don't know why you wouldn't want to use the presets, but that's your right.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 13, 2010, 07:56 PM:
 
I talked with them. they had some thoughts........they thought it was because of the cold weather. I just want a simple little remote with a off and on switch, a volume button, and another button to switch through the sounds. I just don"t want all those buttons, dials and such. plus the fact that if you loose it they are fairly expensive to replace. Don't spend a lot of time defending it to me.......I use it just about every week year round. pretty good little unit, the ones I have had in the past are just fine tools as well............the remote looks like it was built for a engineer not a coyote hunter. Keep it simple........they missed that in their design.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 13, 2010, 08:06 PM:
 
Coyotehunter. I am not trying to defend anything. I thought you had a problem and was trying to help you. I am just saying that if Snowcamoman has no problems in Alaska with line of sight or anything else, you should have no problem in N. Dakota.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 13, 2010, 08:21 PM:
 
k..........sorry you miss understood me. I am not looking for help. just making a statement about my thoughts and issues with the foxpro remote. Just because you know a guy in alaska who is not having the same problem does not mean that my problem does not exist. I was just making a statement about my experience with the unit.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 13, 2010, 08:32 PM:
 
Coyotehunter. No problem. I was only suggesting that steps that helped him in Alaska might help you in N. Dakota. I know the clear, raised buttons on the remote help me a bunch in cold weather with gloves on. They give you a definite click feel on each key. I was not suggesting that you don't have a problem, but trying to be of help. I do believe you have a problem with your unit, but I believe it is correctable.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 13, 2010, 08:34 PM:
 
I have posted this before, but in case anyone is interested, here are the clear stick on buttons that I think help you operate your remote in cold weather with gloves on. In fact, I think they help anytime as you learn the location of the keys by feel.


 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on September 13, 2010, 08:46 PM:
 
Cool idea Al!
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 13, 2010, 08:55 PM:
 
I have held off making a comment on the cs24 until now. I have seen the same issues with the line of sight problem coyotehunter mentioned. The call is not mine(Randy's), but I have hunted over it almost as much as he has. In Colorado last year, we had problems with the call not responding to the remote. There were incidents where the call would not turn off/mute, change volume or sound. It happened several times, and I remember having several conversations regarding it. Also, it should be noted the temps were low 20's to high 30's. Not exactly arctic conditions.

All that said, I will probably still buy one soon. I like the sound quality and design, along with some of the sounds only available through fp. I know how to deal with the line of sight problems; after all, I currently own a minaska.

Maintain
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 14, 2010, 03:33 AM:
 
I use the raised stick on buttons on my WT remote and they do freeze or get stiff in very cold weather -15 and interfear with the operation of the remote when selecting a sound..
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 14, 2010, 06:41 AM:
 
Greenside: "How often do you hear an uninitiated “I’m a dispersing nine month old coyote” type howl? Or for that matter, how often can you solicit a howl back from a dispersing nine month old coyote? I’ll assume that most newly dispersed coyote let their nose do the talking."

When most recreational callers are hunting coyotes there is two categories of coyotes present, jueveniles that are dispersing and adults. The jueveniles are 6 - 9 months old while the adults are a year and 6 - 9 months old +. Jueveniles constitute about 70% of most healthy coyote populations. When it comes to dispersion, jueveniles will constitute an even higher percentage because many adults are already locked into certain areas especially wet bitches that have successfully denned in an area and adult pairs that are still together.

If you are having trouble differentiating between the two when you hear them or see them, this discussion will probably not help you.

How do you identify a dispersing coyote from an adult at a distance? Size, behavior, sound, and teeth and skull after you shoot them to reflect back on their size, behavior, and sound.

So if you have an area that hasn't had a lot of coyotes in it during the summer and it's wintertime and it now has a few coyotes running around ALONE, they are probably young dispersing coyotes.

In addition, you don't need coyotes to answer you to elicit a response. Many come without answering.

As far as the other reader's comments, you can't have a meaningful discussion on this topic based on generalizations. If someone says, "I've seen coyotes move away from a howl", what the heck does that tell you? Nothing, unless you know exactly what type of howl they are talking about, where it came from in relation to where the coyote was heading, and know that the howl was the only deterrant. Can you say that for sure? If not, then the reaction to an adult howl has no bearing on the reaction to the howl of a young coyote. Yet another "apples to grapefruits" comparison. Comparing a Bad Assed Brock Lesner coyote howl at full volume on the WT sent from the high hill is hardly comparable to a high pitched howl coming from Randy Anderson's lil' dog howler while tucked in behind some soapweeds.

Here's another thing to consider. If you can clearly see what is a young dispersing coyote due to it's size, location, and behavior and it doesn't answer you when you howl and keeps moving away from you until you use a distress call then it comes. How do you know the howl was a deterrant as opposed to simply NOT AN ATTRACTANT? If the coyote doesn't turn tail and run away from the sound of another young coyote, it may simply be uninterested as opposed to being intimidated. Howling didn't help you in that situation but it certainly didn't hurt you.

Am I really that bad at explaining this?

Contrary to popular belief, I don't think my opinion is the only one that matters. I am willing to defend my opinion and challenge the opinion of others simply to find out what those opinions are based on and consider all the variables involved in order to test the validity of what I currently believe. I won't apologize for that.

Picture this...

Judge to jury: "Have you reached a decision"

Juror: "We have your honor"

Judge to jury: "What say you"

Jury: "We the jury find that everyone's opinion has merit regardless what factors that opinion was based on so let's all join hands now and sing Kumbia"

Wily: "I OBJECT!!!!!"

There is an organization in the cattle industry that has a lot of popular opinions on market manipulation. I have questioned and challenged their conspiracy theories from their inception to my own personal detriment with friends in the cattle industry. This organization's record in a court of law is now 0 and 9 taking one case to the Supreme court and losing. Those opinions haven't went away but I feel better knowing the law and the facts support what I believe in this case.

I hate to divert to MO but it always seems to become an issue during these debates. Cal has done the best job so far in defending his opinion which makes me reconsider mine. That's the value in debate.

I question much of what I hear unless I think I can trust the source.

Take it away......

~SH~

[ September 14, 2010, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 14, 2010, 09:19 AM:
 
I had the same problems with my CS24 also, ditto Lance. I've had several issues with a FX-3, so I'm kinda used to it.

I traded in the FX-3 for the CS-24.
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on September 14, 2010, 09:22 AM:
 
I find the line of sight thing interesting. I'm having the same problem with my CS-24. As long as I have line of sight it works out to actually further away than I'll ever need (200 yards or more.) However if there is a slight curve in the hill and I'm only 40 yards away and don't have line of sight it will not work. With that said I just make sure I have line of sight when I set up. Not really all that difficult and most of the time it is what I would do anyway.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 14, 2010, 10:12 AM:
 
It's supposed to work beyond line of sight? It had better, they claim it will? But, for me, I like to see the unit because sometimes an animal can sneak in and stick it's nose in the speaker. It's nice to be able to observe that when it happens.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on September 14, 2010, 11:00 AM:
 
The sound on my CS-24 is louder and as clear, or clearer, than my FX5, but the remote range was definitely better on the FX5. My understanding was the the CS-24 was supposed to have the best transmitter with the most range of anything they had ever made. Simply not true from my experience so far.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 14, 2010, 11:21 AM:
 
I guess all the money is in the Sounds and transmitters.

I think the TOA speaker I bought was $39, and a < $50 MP3 player.

Someday, someone will figure it out.
 

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Posted by luckyjack (Member # 3462) on September 14, 2010, 12:23 PM:
 
I'll give a confession also. Another one here that is very disappointed in the CS24 and it's supposedly super remote.

I have the same problems with muting the caller as has been mentioned. It's weird, but the POS will start the sounds damn near every time you push the button from about anywhere and at long distances.

I guees it's a decent caller if you never need or want to shut the thing up after you start it.

Very disappointed in the caller after all the good bullshit I read about them.

[ September 14, 2010, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: luckyjack ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 14, 2010, 12:57 PM:
 
Oh great! Now you tell me! I'll tell you one thing, if it don't work, I'm sending it in and will make due with the Minaska. ElBee

UPS called yesterday and said that somebody has to be home all day to sign for it, from 8A.M. to 7P.M. Here it is 1:00, and UPS isn't knocking, yet......
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 14, 2010, 01:03 PM:
 
Scott, trying to pick your brain. During this dispersal, what percent of all your howl backs would you attribute to dispersing coyote? Can you tell the difference between the howls of a dispersing male from a female? Do 9 month old coyote territorial howl?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 14, 2010, 01:18 PM:
 
Yeah I've had problems with my FX5 remote too. Not really bad but some issues for sure.It really does piss ya off though.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 14, 2010, 01:27 PM:
 
Gee................You guys are making my little 416 & it's remote seem better all of the time. And saving me a bunch of coin that can be better spent on lap dances.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 14, 2010, 03:17 PM:
 
The cs-24 is a good caller but at times very few in certain cover unless I'm elevated or the caller I need to hold the remote high to get it to function properly. Not very often and I like possumal's stand hook up!!!! If i'm higher than the caller at ground level zero problems if the caller is higher than me, say a hay bale zero problems, I don't know if it is minerals in the soils in certain areas, transmission lines or what but while not amajor concern it does happen, Al's stand would I'm sure eliminate it 100%. Minaska had the best remote to caller function I have ever owned, zero problems none, nadda, zero. Didn;t matter how thick or how far away within reason it just kept on ticking.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 14, 2010, 04:25 PM:
 
I wish I knew more about how to use vocals, Scott I sure am greatful for you taking the time lay it out for guys like me.

I did at least think that a young coyote wouldn't be as threatening as an older one and when I ordered my powler howler, I ordered the gray bands for a higher/younger pitch.

Now for the caller/remote problems, no one has had as bad of luck as I did with e-callers, not that I could imagine anyway.

The first Fury (same remote tech) and first generation, worked fine and then all of a sudden it wouldn't mute the caller. The second one worked perfectly and I converted a buddy of mine who had a minaska, the remote was awesome. He wound up with that caller and I ordered another one but the CS24 was coming out so my cousin wanted that Fury, it worked fine and still is.

The first CS24 I got, was dead on arrival, it would not read the sound list. A phone call got a second one delivered in a couple of days. That one has been working without issue as long as the batteries are up.

Now for Minaska, mine went back to the factory at least 4 times and was sold for a big loss as soon as it came back "fixed". That remote was worse than the Western Rivers add on for the JS512.

If you have trouble with FP call em and get it fixed, the new remote works very well. They can't fix it if they don't know about it and they are very easy to work with.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 14, 2010, 04:26 PM:
 
I have tested 4 CS-24's and 1 Fury and have never had any of them fail. I have tested them in every kind of terrain and at various distances up to 300 yds, and they worked flawlessly. If you look at the post I made some time ago about the first tests I ran, you will see that the Fury worked over hills, behind trees, and behind thick weeds and bushes. Others have tested them thoroughly with the same results. Obviously that doesn't mean you can't have a problem. I do use the small camera tripod with the quick connect to get the caller up off the ground, and I cover with a piece of camo cloth to hide the tripod and ecaller, and it works well that way too. IMO, they sound better that way. The FHSS technology is supposed to work that way, and my tests have shown it is far more reliable than the TX-200 remote. If you are having a problem, Foxpro will fix it.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 14, 2010, 04:56 PM:
 
you make some great points Wiley but you seem to easily discount other individuals visual observations. In my work in the area I hunt..............everyday, year round. I would say I understand what I can and can not do with these coyotes. I have seen runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to other coyte sounds. Brian Mitchells study clearly reinforces my observations that not all coyotes will respond or approach coyotes vocalizations. If your coyotes will not respond it will make it difficult to determine, at least in a cold call situation, how to vocally approach a call sequance. At least in a way that is useful in a calling/hunting situation. In a control enviroment were you know and understand your coyotes (Micro or Macro in its scope)you have more to consider and more time to understand the dynamics of your population. If you are calling through a given area in the fall I would always try to locate as many of your coyotes as possible but do not pass up a area that looks like it should hold coyotes just because you did not hear or see a coyote. Especially if this is a spot thot you have killed coyotes in the past. Slide in hit a distress of your likeing and shoot straight. Steve Allen has a great study that showed how neighboring coyotes rarely approached one another but vocalized back and forth constantly. All good info Scott and I know you have read these studies. I do beleive in my area, I get to know the coyotes I have through out the year, especially on my sheep grounds, I do end up killing most of them when on stand with vocalizations. I would say though the main reason that is is because I get in so tight before I open up. If I do not know the area very well..........I rely on prey distress alot and those I do use I typically record myself. Though Foxpro does have a great library of sounds that work as well. I hope I have not rambled to much and you get the jest of my position. Great info Scott and I appreciate you taking the time to put it out there.

[ September 14, 2010, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 14, 2010, 04:59 PM:
 

quote:

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If you are having a problem, Foxpro will fix it.

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and fix it,
and fix it,
and ...

[ September 14, 2010, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 14, 2010, 05:00 PM:
 
I will say the CS24 works better and is more reliable than my FX-3 was.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 14, 2010, 07:22 PM:
 
You know PA, your comments of never having a problem just sent any credability you had with me right out the window. The fact that you are a rep for fp, and given that others have seen the same issues I have, really makes me wonder what your experience is. I never trashed the fp cs24. On the contrary, I stated I would probably own one before the season started for me. As far as ecalls go....they all have a potential for not working when needed. They are a damn mass of electronics put together by the lowest bidder. Another good reason to always have mouth calls. If the cs24 is as infallible as you claim, do you think you could talk Steve and Mike into building cell phones and computers.

Maintain
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 14, 2010, 07:33 PM:
 
CrossJ, did you not read my post completely? I clearly said that obviously you can have a problem. I didn't say you didn't have a problem or that any of the other guys didn't have a problem. I said I had not had any problems in testing 4 CS-24's and 1 Fury, and that is the truth. It is also true that Foxpro will give you good customer service if you need it.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 14, 2010, 08:17 PM:
 
when things slow down I'm going to wally world to by a small tripod and the air parts Al uses on his setup.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 14, 2010, 08:17 PM:
 
I will say that Fox Pros customer services has always been great. I will be sending my unit in and I am sure they will turn it around as soon as possible. I would suggest to anyone else who is having issues to contact them and give them a chance at getting the problem addressed. My opinions about the remote are more directed on me wanting something very simple and durable. I do think they put out a quality product that they will stand behind. The debate is always around the WT unit............I have never personally used one. I have been on stand with a guy who does use his a lot and it sounded fine.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 14, 2010, 09:38 PM:
 
While you guys are getting youre F-P's repaired I'll be out calling coyotes this week with my old reliable WT.

Since the cs-24 is a clone to the WT then maybe you should take a look at the stand I use for mine. Its adjustable and can hang from a fence or tree or fence post or just set it on the ground... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/IMG_2063.jpg[/IMG]]
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 14, 2010, 10:08 PM:
 
I'm way more impressed by the camo job than the light stand!

Just so you know, the Foxpro is not a clone of WT. The TOA speaker isn't WT's design... it is an off the shelf mass produced part, that is where the similarity exists.

Which is better? I would say whichever one you use on any given day. I've hunted behind both and there is very little to no difference other than one is pre programmed with Allah's favorite sounds and the other is user programmable.

Both are over priced and prone to failure. A simplified programmable version of either at about half the cost would be a winner.

I would also like to see a user friendly remote with about half the buttons and features... you just don't need them. And why would you need to glue raised buttons on a properly designed remote unit? Don't these guys know we wear gloves in the Winter?

Where's your buckethead mount Timmy? Maybe you should send it to Al!!!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 15, 2010, 04:15 AM:
 

quote:

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Just so you know, the Foxpro is not a clone of WT. The TOA speaker isn't WT's design... it is an off the shelf mass produced part, that is where the similarity exists.

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quote:

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And why would you need to glue raised buttons on a properly designed remote unit? Don't these guys know we wear gloves in the Winter?

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quote:

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Where's your buckethead mount Timmy? Maybe you should send it to Al!!!

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You won't catch me useing that stupid bucket. Besides I think it needs more testing before its put on the shelves. Kelly could send one to Andy for further testing but it may take a few years before we hear the results.

quote:

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Both are over priced and prone to failure. A simplified programmable version of either at about half the cost would be a winner.

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I feel the same way about youre hand calls, you should be giveing them away. Problem is finding someone who would want one..

[ September 15, 2010, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 15, 2010, 04:53 AM:
 

quote:

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Yep I read that on P.M. a few times also so it must be true. Anyway they both use the same bracket for holding it or mounting it to a stand

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quote:

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I feel the same way about youre hand calls, you should be giveing them away. Problem is finding someone who would want one...

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Good luck trying to buy one! I make'm and I donate em, don't really sell them. You're probably right... no body wants one, especially you, since you wouldn't know which end to blow anyway.

Pretty good come back Timmy, I was being a little hard on you.

I just don't see why you think a WT is any higher quality or will call a coyote any better when the sound reproduced by both units can only reach the level of quality in the speaker. It's all a matter of physics. 350hz-12.5khz is the same from both units... period!

Nikonut

[ September 15, 2010, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 15, 2010, 06:34 AM:
 

quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep I read that on P.M. a few times also so it must be true. Anyway they both use the same bracket for holding it or mounting it to a stand
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both the SC610 and SC615 use that same bracket, it comes directly from Toa with that bracket... standard off the shelf.

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quote:

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I just don't see why you think a WT is any higher quality or will call a coyote any better when the sound reproduced by both units can only reach the level of quality in the speaker. It's all a matter of physics. 350hz-12.5khz is the same from both units...

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I'm sure the F-P is just as good or most of the members here would'nt be buying one or already have one..
One thing I do know is the F-P is'nt gonna do any better than the WT and those that are buying one or plan to get one in the future are going to be disappointed...
From my exspearence the WT works great with both young and old coyotes and even on those so called call shy coyotes. Just have to learn to use it!! Some members don't have the patence to work a stuburn coyote and the F-P is'nt going to cure the problem or any special sounds they think they need to have on the caller....
Anyway I don't have a F-P and don't plan on getting one so I'll just take youre word for it that the F-P is just as good..
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 15, 2010, 07:28 AM:
 
Those of you who are having problems with the remote control not working at longer ranges, I suggest you check to be sure that the batteries in the remote are good. I bought a multimeter to check the voltage in my batteries. If the batteries are good, then contact Foxpro. I think that those of you who would like a caller with less bells and whistles are running on same wave length that I am. The more electronic gizmo's installed in a caller are just more gizmo's to go wrong. I would love to see Foxpro build a caller with signal hopping technology, but uses a remote control with the bank system somewhat similar to the old Minaska Bandit. A lot of old fashioned guys like me would prefer a keep it simple caller. Even the old Minaska system had problems though. No matter what they build, we are still going to need service after the sale.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 15, 2010, 08:20 AM:
 
Maybe TA's WT loyalty is due to status? After all, his ADC friends use it and if you want to look like a top notch hunter, you need to show up with the same gear. I'm surprised his modified stand isn't welded to a backwards ball cap for his 360's since the buckethead would freeze right to his head. You know, like sticking your tongue on a frozen bumper? Besides, why does he even need an ecaller? Ain't he the road champ? I heard that a long time ago, must be true?

Oh! Locating! Right?

Good hunting. LB
(just kidding, Tim, we love ya! Your stuff is just as entertaining as Scott's, but different)
 

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Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on September 15, 2010, 08:40 AM:
 
Guess I am the oddball here, but it is kind of interesting reading everyone tout the graces of FP vs. WT.

Got rid of an FX-5 and bought one of the Kanati-Tek calls and haven't been disappointed...carry on guys!
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 15, 2010, 08:54 AM:
 
TA17 wrote: The WT works well on both young and old coyotes. Any caller will work well on young coyotes TA and msoit of them will work well on old coyotes as well. It is all a matter of what they have been pre conditioned to in the first place and time of year your calling to them!!!!!

Paternal instincts are a strong force.

FP has some great sounds as does the others it is all brand preferance nothing more or less IMO. Give them something they haven't heard and following the other standards of calling and all should work out well.

ALL brands due to FCC rules must allow interferance in their remotes that is part of the deal of being licensed to sell them, so if they all have to allow interferance than at times and geographic location and rule changes from FCC they are ALL prone to some issues, it is keeping them at a bare minimum that is the key and I know by elevating the caller as many WT users do as well, it makes a differance could be 1 of many things.
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 15, 2010, 09:39 AM:
 
USDA Wildlife Services in Wyoming issues Foxpro's not WT. also CritRcall mouth calls.
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on September 15, 2010, 10:03 AM:
 
"From my exspearence the WT works great with both young and old coyotes and even on those so called call shy coyotes. Just have to learn to use it!! Some members don't have the patence to work a stuburn coyote and the F-P is'nt going to cure the problem or any special sounds they think they need to have on the caller...."

Man, I was really going to try and leave Timmy alone this year, but I have to say the above extra special piece of brilliant literature is making it very tough! Funny thing is after reading the "Tales of Timmy" for a couple years now I can actually understand his writing. Well, I mean, I understand what he is trying to write, still pretty foggy on his mental train of thought though. Carry on.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 15, 2010, 10:33 AM:
 

quote:

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Maybe TA's WT loyalty is due to status? After all, his ADC friends use it and if you want to look like a top notch hunter, you need to show up with the same gear.

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I used other callers and hand calls before I met the ADC group and could call in coyotes with what I had, but at the same time there was a large percentage I could'nt call in with what equipement I had. Later i got to see the WT in action and the results is what sold me.( easey to use, great sounds, loud, and I don't have to send it in every year to update or have repaired)
I'm not much of a follower, I like to cut my own trails and use what equipement I want for the job..
I'm heading out the door and going west, be back in 4-5 days..
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on September 15, 2010, 01:41 PM:
 
Good luck Tim!

WE'll be waiting to hear your stories and see the results.

No, not kidding here at all buddy... you always come back with a tale if not at least a couple of tails!

Shoot straight and be safe!

Nikonut
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 15, 2010, 02:04 PM:
 
What was the topic again?

If i hear one more argument over WT vs Foxpro i'm going puke on my keyboard!! SHUTUP!!!!!!!! They are both good products Steve Dillon is a stand up guy the times i've met him and talked to him and thats why i'm a bigger fan of FP (customer service)

There was a good conversation on a legitamate topic and it got pissed down the drain due to people pissing on bushes about there callers. Worry about killing coyotes with you caller instead of proving to everyone on the internet how yours is the best!

Christ Almighty move on!

3 Toes I will ask 515 what his answer would be in the next few days i'm not nearly as sure of his answer as you are
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 15, 2010, 02:15 PM:
 
Hey, that's meat and potatos for message boards! Topics like what's the best caliber for coyotes, is it better to call up wind or down wind, and a lot of others that have not been settled...yet.

Good hunting. LB

(and probably never will be)
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 15, 2010, 04:33 PM:
 

quote:

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I know how important location is for many factors of what we do. As a indicator, ask your pilot to ask his dad who he thinks is the most likely in all the guys he flys for (and has ever flown for) to get more coyotes to howl and locate for the plane. And we are talking extremely tough coyotes. It's not even something I have brought up with him, but I'm fairly sure of his answer.

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Seriously 3toes...........that is a pretty ballsy statement. You don"t really want me to ask him do you??
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 15, 2010, 06:42 PM:
 
Sure thing guys, go ahead and ask! I might be wrong, you never know. It may go to Johnson county for all I know. Either way it's still with a FoxPro. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone else, there are lots of guys around including you two that are good at thier job.
 

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Posted by jbmartin (Member # 651) on September 15, 2010, 06:55 PM:
 
I use howling on some stands, some not....
Who can tell if that was the trigger for the ones you called....or not...
I read the whole first post and never really got the question....

TA, why would you stop in the middle of SD when you could keep going to get on the Butte/Harding county line?

Could be a good place....you never know...

Later...

JBM
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 15, 2010, 07:34 PM:
 
The Butte/Harding county line is hit hard beciase of the sheep in that country, be better off finding cattlemen close to the grasslands if one wants more numbers to call to.

TA likes the cheyanne sioux triabl area as they have hardly any sheep and do little in the way of control work. A good place to call coyotes as they have better numbers there but are comming back from the mange. Still a decent amount of coyotes for sure.

[ September 15, 2010, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 15, 2010, 07:34 PM:
 
No offense taken............how would I take offense to you claiming to be better at locating coyotes then any one else in the Eastern District.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 16, 2010, 06:13 AM:
 
No problem coyotehunter. Just be sure and post the answer after you ask the question. I'm reaonably confident of the situation or I would have never posted a statement like that. But again, I wasn't trying to say that no one else is capable. But I think I have more sounds and better sounds than most, and that was the point I was making with Wily. Not that no one else could locate a coyote. Everybody has thier strong suit. Some guys are better trappers, some guys have better M44 lure and pick locations for those better. I consider myself a very mediocre trapper and probably everybody in the district is better with traps than I am. I do OK with snares and calling. But I truly believe that I can locate coyotes with my sounds and equipment better than the rest.

I'm like the german on Hogans heroes...

vee haf vays of makink you talk!

[ September 16, 2010, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on September 16, 2010, 07:58 AM:
 
Checking in after a few days away. Just read this and felt the need to support my fellow non-satisfied-foxpro-remote-reception-guys. Two of the best things for me in the world of predator hunting have been getting purposely banned from PM to never return, and getting off the FP bandwagon and not allowing ecaller posts get me worked up (and ignoring any new and improved ecall versions/no longer worrying about having latest and greatest). I've been waiving a FP remote over my head since around 2001, and I guess I'm finally just use to it and okay with it. From the 416, to the 532, to the fx3, to the fx5. Probably the biggest dissappointment through it all was listening to the possumal's of the world telling us "it shouldn't happen". Well, no sh**!!! LOL But hey!...at least all of my customer service experiences have been wonderful.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 16, 2010, 05:18 PM:
 
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7159199/

And lest we forget.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6322981/
 

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Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on September 16, 2010, 08:28 PM:
 
Jeeezus--I darn near wet my pants after watching those two videos!!!
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 17, 2010, 06:18 AM:
 
That be funny, R. Shaw. I believe you have great movie making skills.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 17, 2010, 06:36 AM:
 
Greenside: "During this dispersal, what percent of all your howl backs would you attribute to dispersing coyote?"

Wow, that's a tough question for a couple reasons. First, I have to go back in time to remember when I did more recreational calling during the dispersal.

Let me explain, in recent years I haven't done a lot of reereational coyote calling during the peak of dispersal other than a handful of contests in other states. For ADC work, most of the calling I do is after Feb. to remove coyotes from certain problem areas. In the contest hunts, I try to work areas where family groups are mostly intact. It's hard to discern reactions from younger coyotes when they show up with the adults.

Back in the late "80s" I used to do a lot of recreational coyote calling during the dispersal but I don't anymore simply because my focus is on timely removal of problem coyotes After Feb.

If I could go back in time to when I did a lot of recreational coyote calling during the peak of dispersal, without actually conducting a study on the percentage of dispersing coyotes that answered me or being focused on it, I am sorry to say but the honest answer is, I DONT KNOW.

Now, if I was to guess based on memory (mine isn't the best), I would say I had far more responses from territorial adults than I did from dispersing young coyotes for obvious reasons. That's the best I can do.

Again, the disclaimers for that statement are:

1. My howls - not someone else's that sound different than mine. I am talking a combination of voice howls and hand call howls at that time. Not much into electronics then.

2. The calling pressure I was calling against at the time as opposed to the calling pressure of someone else's area.

3. The set-up I use in the country I am used to calling as opposed to someone else's. This is a huge variable with response. For example, if coyotes watch or hear you enter the area, they simply are not going to be as responsive from the standpoint of answering you.

Generalizing statements like, "I don't get many young coyotes to answer me when I howl" are so hard to sort through without a discussion on the variables from place to place and from time to time. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to focus on those variables to help better understand coyotes.

I sure chewed around that one didn't I Dennis? LOL! I am just trying to give you and honest and objective answer.

Greenside: "Can you tell the difference between the howls of a dispersing male from a female?"

Now that question I can answer you. NO!

Can someone else? I don't know. I have never been focused on it. I have been focused on the difference between howls of adult vs. young or male vs. female in adult coyotes but not young males vs. young females.

Now here are some generalizations for you so please take this with a huge grain of salt....

Young coyotes are generally higher pitched than old coyotes. OLDER Female coyotes are generally higher pitched than OLDER male coyotes. I can't say I have noticed any difference between young male and young female coyotes but I am going to start paying closer attention after this discussion. There is certainly exceptions to this generalizing "rule of thumb".

I haven't heard many young coyotes that sounded like old coyotes but I have had many old female and male coyotes that sounded like eachother.

When calling adult coyotes on dens with and without dogs, I have been wrong so many times when trying to guess which was the old male, which was the old female, and which were yearlings that I quit trying to outguess it. I have seen every combination of behavior you can imagine including multiple dog (male) coyotes without a female present. Usually the male is the aggressor with the female following behind but again, I have been wrong enough times that I quit trying to outguess it and I have a lot of experience with it and pay attention to it.

Greenside: "Do 9 month old coyote territorial howl?"

They howl. LOL!

Consider that most dispersing young coyotes are looking for territories and a few are still with the adults that raised them which is why you end up with yearlings on dens in the spring. I can't say whether their howls are based on "hey who is out there" vs. "this is my territory stay out".

What I do know is that young canines of all sorts rely on adults for their courage.

Yours were good questions Greenside but I'm not going to step outside the realm of my knowledge and experience to speculate simply to impress someone. My answers are honest and straightforward and if they sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, so be it.

The bottom line is this, the more I study and learn about coyotes, the more I realize how much I don't know.

When it comes to coyotes, the bottomless pit of knowledge and understanding is in how they adapt their behavior to fit their environment and how their behavior changes based on their life's experiences. Their basic instincts for survival do not change but how they adapt their behavior to certain situations does change.

As a perfect example, most coyotes run from gunfire but some recognize gunfire as an easy meal such as dead prairie dogs on a dog town or crippled geese next to the river. CONDITIONED RESPONSE!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 17, 2010, 07:50 AM:
 
ch: "you make some great points Wiley but you seem to easily discount other individuals visual observations."

I don't discount other individuals visual observations Coyote Hunter. I simply question the reason for those observations. Big difference. If someone tells me they don't get young coyotes to howl back, I'm not questioning that observation. I'm questioning the reason for it.

As pointed out, there is lots of reasons coyotes do not respond that have nothing to do with the howl itself. If we can sort out those variables then there is also a big difference between howls. Can you argue either point? If callers are to learn anything from eachother, we have to have a discussion on variables to see if there are differences in variables to account for the differences in observations.

As an example, one thing I am sure enough of to sink my teeth into is that a good voice howl will create a better response in more situations with more coyotes of all ages (considering all variables from place to place and time to time) than any reproduced coyote howl I have used or heard HANDS DOWN. I've proven that to myself time and time again in not only in the areas I have worked but in other states as well. If you think about it it makes perfect sense too.

I've also had many experienced coyote men tell me that the two are not in the same league when they made the comparison between the two at a distance. The coyotes have told me the same thing. As a matter of fact, just yesterday I had a coyote that ran to the top of the hill nearby and answered despite our vehicle being in plain sight. This coyote was absolutely convinced there was another coyote beside our pickup. I had an eye witness. I have seen this many times.

When you talk about your observations to your howls, I am comparing that to my observations from my howls. If yours are mechanically reproduced and mine are from my own vocal chords, we are comparing "apples to oranges".

Fair enough?

Again, the only way I can learn anything from a generalizing statement about coyote vocalization response is if I can sort out the variables.

CH: "In my work in the area I
hunt..............everyday, year round. I would say I understand what I can and can not do with these coyotes."

Sure, with your techniques and your methods. That might not be the case with someone else's methods and their techniques.

Let me give you one of the most vivid examples I can think of regarding how coyotes break their own rules. They did a fascinating study on coyote behavior in the city of Chicago that opened a whole new world to how coyotes can adapt to certain environments. One of the radio colored coyotes was laying down next to and downwind of a golf course with golfers walking and driving by most of the day. When the researcher that collared this coyote walked upwind, this coyote immediately sat up and started warning barking. That coyote was not afraid of human scent per say, that coyote was afraid of the researcher that placed the collar on this coyote and recognized her individual scent. Now doesn't that break the rules of understanding coyote behavior as we know it?

Incidentally, the coyotes used the railroads as their means to traverse the city. Sage brush and 2 track trails being substituted for by rail cars and train tracks. Makes perfect sense if you stop and think about it. Other than the occasional graffiti artist, not much to worry about.

These urban coyote studies are fascinating to me because they teach us the lengths coyotes will go to in order to adapt and survive.

ch: "I have seen runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to other coyte sounds."

Where have I heard the term "neophobic" before? LOL!

You have heard runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to YOUR coyote sounds and your techniques in your geographical area.

Fair enough?

So have I but you also didn't see me say that EVERY YOUNG COYOTE in EVERY SITUATION will respond to howls did you?

CH: "Brian Mitchells study clearly reinforces my observations that not all coyotes will respond or approach coyotes vocalizations."

Again, Brian's sounds, Brian's observations, Brian's techniques, Brian's time of year, and Brian's area which might be totally different with someone else's sounds, their techniques, their areas, and WHEN they are calling.

You don't know if we are comparing "apples to oranges" and neither do I. The total picture might be much bigger here.

I can tell you one thing for sure CH, good research should lead to more questions than answers. I have seen a lot of research that wasn't worth the paper it was written on simply because it didn't consider all the variables. Nobody likes good research more than I do and Steve Allen has done some of the best because nobody questioned the results of Steve's reasearch more than Steve did. That's what made him one of the best if not THE BEST coyote researcher of all times.

Let me give you two classic examples of exactly what I'm talking about. First, I'll bet you've heard the statement, "coyotes respond to any decrease in population by having larger litters" haven't you? Steve Allen questioned that logic and found out that the number of yearling female coyotes that are breeding played a significant role in coyote population recruitment. The affect of the percentage of yearling females that breed in a population of coyotes can have as much affect as litter size. Whether or not the yearling females breed is based on the dynamics of that coyote population. To me, this was an excellent observation and changed the way many researchers thought about it.

Coyotes have a lot of characteristics that are wolf like particularly in populations that are unexploited such as those in Yellowstone National Park or should I say "WERE in Yellowstone Park" (Wolf displacement). Consider that not all female wolves in a pack will breed. Coyote population dynamics obviously plays a role in the number of yearling females that breed or you wouldn't have dry yearlings and wet yearlings.

I have a high degree of respect for anyone that thinks for themselves and my thought process is shaped the same way.

You and I both know that MOST coyotes have no trouble finding food or they wouldn't live there. Coyotes don't stay where food is scarce. They move to the food and their list of food items is never ending. I have never seen a healthy coyote without fat on it's back in the winter months so I can see no reason why litter size would be affected by anything other than age and fertility factors that are unrelated to food. I have never seen a starving coyote that wasn't mangy. Have you? Incidentally, the fattest coyote I ever saw had no bottom jaw and survived by licking corn out of cow sh*t. I doubt that coyote, if it was a female, had fertility issues related to nutrition.

Next example of the results of bad research, how many times have you heard the statement "if you remove coyotes that are not killing livestock, other coyotes will move in and start killing".

What a ridiculous statement. As if some coyotes are genetically pre-disposed to kill livestock and others aren't. As you know, all coyotes are opportunistic predators and the only reason some coyotes won't kill livestock while others do is their age (confidence) and/or they have found easier food. Coyotes certainly aren't being genetically selected or taught to not prey on livestock which is why the statement is so ridiculous to anyone that understands coyotes. I have even heard this from ranchers that never have coyote problems. When I ask them why some coyotes will kill livestock and others won't they don't have an answer.

Not to drift too far but my all time favorite was a study on water quality that reached the conclusion that "the cloudiness of the water was due to turbidity". Haha! GOSH, YA THINK???? Never thought not to compare still water to moving water. LOL! Can you imagine that someone actually paid for that study. Probably you and me. Haha.

My point, take research with a huge grain of salt unless you can trust the source and know the variables.

Again, I didn't say every coyote will respond did I?

CH: "If your coyotes will not respond it will make it difficult to determine, at least in a cold call situation, how to vocally approach a call sequance."

I agree. Some areas coyotes are not as vocal but they are USUALLY curious about their own kind even when CAUTION outweighs that CURIOUSITY.

My passion for killing difficult coyotes has made recreational calling boring in comparison. I made more stupid mistakes, had more bad luck, and botched more call stands this summer than I care to mention but those situations make you a better caller. I also didn't have a good set of dogs this summer to cover those mistakes due to circumstances out of my control. Hopefully that will change with the pups I am starting. Used to have good dogs but not for a while due dogs getting old and mange in the coyotes reducing the need. Certainly know the value of good dogs but there is also a lot of responsibility that goes with them. Sorry, I'm drifting again.

CH: "If you are calling through a given area in the fall I would always try to locate as many of your coyotes as possible but do not pass up a area that looks like it should hold coyotes just because you did not hear or see a coyote."

You said "the fall" so let's go with that. I agree from the standpoint that just because I didn't get a response doesn't mean there isn't coyotes there. With that said, I USUALLY don't call an area IN THE FALL unless I get a response. Why go to where they MIGHT BE when I can go to WHERE THEY ARE?

CH: "I do beleive in my area, I get to know the coyotes I have through out the year, especially on my sheep grounds, I do end up killing most of them when on stand with vocalizations."

I try to kill the coyotes before I really get to know them. Unfortunately, that's not always a luxury is it?

Since there is so many ADC men gathered here, I'd really like to start a discussion on running an effective coyote control program and all the variables that this entails. I don't do things the same as I used to and I think it would be a great topic of discussion. It may be awhile before I get some time to really put some thought into it but there is many ways to skin a cat when it comes to "legitimate" ADC work but I think there is some ways to skin a cat that are better than others. I kill less coyotes on the ground now than I ever have, some of which is due to changes in coyote populations, but I also have never had less livestock predation than I do now.

One of my favorite ADC topics of discussion is how only a fool would brag about killing large numbers of coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st unless they simply can't handle the size area they have. Big piles of dead coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st usually means big piles of dead sheep. Where is the bragging rights there? Pure ignorance.

Timing is everything in this job and that's what I would really like to talk about but not until I have more time to put my thoughts down.

A big part of this job is educating the producers we serve that timing is everything.

~SH~

[ September 17, 2010, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 18, 2010, 11:44 AM:
 
Good grief. I will have to take some time to respond to all of this. Are we talking about calling in general or control work. getting know my coyotes does not mean first name basis with a coyote. it means knowing how they are traveling, were they are watering, denning............year after year. It is like fishing, once a good spot always a good spot. A den pocket with hold coyotes year round year after year. take 1 pair out and soon another will move in. I will take some time address more of this but I work more sheep than anyone else in the eastern half of Wyoming. I love hearing guys talk about control work that run only cattle and maybe have a few small bands of sheep if any at all. If you think that all your coyotes are going to be isolated and have no human interaction.............well good luck with that. I voice howl as well. just not so excited about telling the whole world about it. Dogs used to be kind of a trade secret as well and now everyone wants to give it a try. I have had coyotes pups over the years and could relay lots of stories and general observations. Having a coyotes recognize an individual is something I have seen many times with the coyotes I have had the house. they growl at me and licked my daughters face.

quote:

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When you talk about your observations to your howls, I am comparing that to my observations from my howls. If yours are mechanically reproduced and mine are from my own vocal chords, we are comparing "apples to oranges".

Fair enough?

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quote:

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Sure, with your techniques and your methods. That might not be the case with someone else's methods and their techniques.

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quote:

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You have heard runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to YOUR coyote sounds and your techniques in your geographical area.

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quote:

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One of my favorite ADC topics of discussion is how only a fool would brag about killing large numbers of coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st unless they simply can't handle the size area they have. Big piles of dead coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st usually means big piles of dead sheep. Where is the bragging rights there? Pure ignorance.

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quote:

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coyotehunter you make it sound as though your the only one working with pressured coyotes? Funny thing is most all coyotes around sheep producers are just that! We all know tolerance for coyotes around sheep producers is very low for the most part, with that in mind we all have issues to deal with as they are pressured in these areas by many factors in others they are not.

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quote:

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1 county with 2 guys to some would be a luxury versus having 3 large counties with many sheep producers spread about. More time to travel to complaints and more complaints over a wider area and 1 less man on the ground

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quote:

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In my opinion, howling as a locating tool, at night is not very successful because (oh, take Nevada, for instance) the bedding areas could be ten miles from the stunted sage flats where they kick up the jacks. In other words, I want to know where they are now, not where they were last night.

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quote:

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Leonard, I agree with your statement about locating at night. If you get a response, it only proves they are there at that time. Around here, they travel long distances in their hunting cycle, and may not be anywhere near where they were the night before.

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This is just a suggestion but maybe you should do youre locateing a few hours before lite.
" Walkers game-ears work for me"
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 19, 2010, 12:03 PM:
 

quote:

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If I am locating in the same place I plan to call, as opposed to just locating coyotes, I would want that speaker away from me to move the focus.

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Scott you have a good point and I do agree with what you said.
Question: When placeing the caller out and away from youre position have you had coyotes come in and then had them get behind a bush or mound of dirt to where you could'nt see them or get a shot at them or had to wait them out till they moved so you could get a shot off???

As you know I do most of my calling alone and I find it easier for me to get a shot and less chance of a stand going bad if I have them come straight in and in site.. I take the shot as soon as Im comfortable with it and get the game over.. I just got back from S.D. yesterday after doing some locateing for the up comeing season and also did a little calling. I called a pr. in on first stand with a female popping into gun range first and after I took her out a male showed up in the same location and I put him down. I had the cam. along but it did'nt turn out the best and only got the male on vidio..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 19, 2010, 12:18 PM:
 
Thanks for the tip, Tim.

Dave, accept the invite from Scott and wangle me in, as well! That would be a worthwhile event.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 19, 2010, 12:41 PM:
 
Greenside,

I want to revisit this because you really got me thinking.

Greenside: "During this dispersal, what percent of all your howl backs would you attribute to dispersing coyote?"

The answer is still, I DON'T KNOW but I want to elaborate further.

As mentioned previously, it's easier to discern the responses of young coyotes from old coyotes rather than by sex but there is another element here.

Not all young coyotes disperse. For whatever reason you are going to have a certain percentage of young coyotes that stay with the adults in the same area they were born and raised. A denning pair with a yearling or two with them is quite common. As a matter of fact, I have seen just about as many pairs with yearlings as pairs without yearlings. Due to the territorial nature of coyotes, I've always believed these yearlings are pups from a previous litter.

There is a number of reasons coyotes disperse or don't disperse. Food, habitat, human disturbance (hunting seasons), weather, and just a need to strike out on their own and find mates are, I believe, reasons why coyotes disperse.

My point to your question? Within the young category of coyotes during the prime fur season, you have dispersers and non disperses to make your question even more difficult to answer. If I am able to discern the response from a young coyote vs. old, I still cannot discern between dispersing and non-dispersing coyotes. I believe young coyotes that are still running with the adults (non dispersers) will probably answer howls more readily than dispersers running through foreign ground.

With that said, I still believe the advantages of howling still outweigh the disadvantages in most situations.

DAA,

Changed my mind, after reading through your questions I think I can try to answer them without going into a lot of detail.

Time of day/night,

An hour before sunrise up to 2 hours after.
An hour before sunset up to 1 hour after.

Just a rough guess. Favorite time is when yardlights are coming on. They are really close to where they are staying at that time of evening. Middle of night, as Leonard pointed out, too much risk of them being away from where they are staying during the day.

time of year,

Anytime of year but less effective during times of high human disturbance. In your situation, that would probably be during deer rifle season. They're probably not going to be quite as social if they have been run around all day.

sounds,

Just a duplication of what you have heard coyotes do themselves. Long drawn out howls just like Randy Anderson does on his videos or Merv Griswold on the "Doggin coyote" videos.

how long you wait for a response,

Most responses will be within 3 minutes but sometimes it takes longer. I don't wait much longer than that.

how far you travel between stops,

Depends on how far I believe sound is carrying and the roughness of the terrain. What I have found is that if you can see yard lights very clearly and sounds are very sharp and distinct, you will be able to hear responses from much further distances than balmy days. Pay attention to the sounds around you and that will be your barometer.

In flat ground in clear conditions, 2 miles between stands. In balmy weather and more hills, 1 mile between stands. General "rule of thumb". That's for my hearing.

whether you locate in daylight and go after them immediately,

Depends whether I am on a locating mission or calling mission. If I hear coyotes at 8AM, you bet I'm going after them unless I think they are too close.

or it's mostly a take note and come back later deal?

Well there is one consideration here, once again this is just a "rule of thumb" but if they respond immediately, if they are close, and if their response is short and abrupt, I might wait on them so I don't bump them on the way in. If you happen to locate an entire intact family group and they are close, a lot of times they will be on their way immediately and you really risk the chance of being detected.

Bill Austin (quoting Kenny Rogers): "You gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them".

In contrast, if the response in the morning is long and drawn out and quite a distance away, then I will move on them. It takes a lot of guesswork out of it.

CH,

Before I get into a lengthy response on your posts, let me address one issue that I can see is a concern of yours and that is ADC techniques being released to the general public.

There is nothing sacred anymore when it comes to ADC techniques and calling techniques. For every guy that keeps information to himself, there is 10 guys telling someone else. It doesn't matter whether it's stalking antelope behind a horse, cow talking to elk, or the use of decoy dogs for adult coyotes. If you have a hunting technique that works, it's only a matter of time before it's going to be common knowledge with the general hunting public. Everyone has a friend. Many good ADC techniques have met the same fate, rabbit distress (Ray Alcorn), howling (Bill Austin), pup distress (Johnny Stewart), sirens, decoy dogs (Merv Griswold), etc. etc.

Don't be a hypocrite either. If you weren't trying to learn new techniques, you wouldn't be on the internet.

Now this isn't to address you personally but rather to ADC men in general. I don't consider all ADC men as "prima dona" coyote hunters just because they do it for a living. Many of the best coyote hunters I know are recreational coyote callers. Just the same I wouldn't want everyone I know carrying the ADC title protecting my livestock. Some ADC men are just drawing a paycheck for recreational coyote hunting and trapping.

We all started at the beginning with our learning curve and nobody is an island of knowledge.

Whether we like it or not, there is going to be a lot of guys out there calling and educating coyotes. If I can help some of the more serious hunters to kill a higher percentage of what they call in, it's in my best interest to do so within the time I have available. If someone wants to take it to the next step of actually having me show them what I have learned and I don't feel it's a reciprocating situation, I am going to get paid for my time just as I paid others for their time. After this many years of both "legitimate" ADC work and recreational coyote calling, recreational coyote calling is not as fun as it used to be as it is with most seasoned ADC men. There is a much bigger committment with showing someone how I call as opposed to telling them. You can tell someone about stand selection but it doesn't really make sense until you show them. With that said, I have had a lot of reciprocating situations that were awesome experiences such as calling coyotes in different country basically trading coyote calling tips for a guided tour of a new area. Great times. Trading night calling tips for day calling tips, etc. etc.

CH, I'm sure you can appreciate the value of personal instruction since you obviously found the same value in it that I did. It takes you to a higher level of knowledge much quicker. It also helps sort out the guys who are really serious about improving their game from those who just want to have fun.

Bottom line, with the internet and personal paid instructions, knowledge is readily available for those willing to seak it. Nothing is sacred.

~SH~

[ September 19, 2010, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 19, 2010, 01:02 PM:
 
Leonard,

We need to plan something.

~SH~

[ September 19, 2010, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 19, 2010, 01:44 PM:
 
Scott, I do not mean to come across harsh or critical. I am better at this one on one then through this medium. Lots of good points that I do not comment on, lots of good free information for guys. Nothing beats personal instruction out in the field. I have learned a lot from hunting with and running trap lines with others guys. I just don't always see how control work approach to coyotes is always helpful to the guy just out recreational calling. My big goal now is to get a hold of Sherm Blom..........sent a letter off, don't even know if it was the right address. If anyone can help with that I would sure appreciate it.

[ September 19, 2010, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 19, 2010, 02:21 PM:
 
CH: "Are we talking about calling in general or control work."

The topic of whether to howl or not to howl was geared more towards recreational coyote hunting during the prime fur season as opposed to year-round ADC work but I still rely heavily on howling during ADC work as well.

CH: "A den pocket with hold coyotes year round year after year."

In most cases I would agree but I have seen the exceptions.

There is a few factors that create a good, as you call it, "den pocket"....

1. Habitat - coyotes USUALLY like to den in areas with enough cover to create shade for themselves and their pups and they like to move in some degree of concealment when given the option.

2. Water - coyotes will ALWAYS den in close proximity to water. Some years water is not an issue because it is everywhere. In drought years water can be a huge determining factor on whether historic denning areas will be used.

3. Food - coyotes will USUALLY den pretty close to a stable food source but, as you know, food is usually not a big factor considering all the things coyotes will eat.

4. Human Disturbance - coyotes will USUALLY den 3/4 to 1 mile or more from areas of frequent human disturbance.

- late edit - the exception to this would be in urban environments where they feel safe around humans. I am familiar with the urban exception.

5. Topography - coyotes will USUALLY den in areas that offer escape routes. Many times, in this country, it's the side draw off the main draw.

As you mention, when it comes to denning there is certainly areas with a much higher magnetic force for coyotes than other areas. Some areas will have coyotes in them every year unless one of the factors mentioned above becomes an issue. Drought can change all the rules.

CH: "If you think that all your coyotes are going to be isolated and have no human interaction.............well good luck with that."

I hope you didn't misunderstand anything I have stated that would lead you to believe that I don't think the coyotes I am working with don't have a lot of interaction with humans. I don't know where that came from. Minimal human interaction would be the exception rather than the rule.

CH: "I voice howl as well. just not so excited about telling the whole world about it."

You just did. LOL!

CH: "If you think that you coming over here and doing a little voice howling in August is going to call in all the remaining coyotes well........best of luck to ya."

Who are you responding to CH? LOL!

Can you show me where I stated that I could go into the middle of your sheep areas and call ALL THE REMAINING COYOTES in August?

This discussion was primarily focused on recreational coyote calling during the prime fur season so it really doesn't have a lot of application to high sheep production areas. If you are doing your job that should be the last place anyone wants to go call coyotes.

Come on CH, I've been at this game a long time. Not only do I have a lot of experience at this, I have also spent a lot of time with others who are very experienced. There isn't much that I haven't seen or heard about when it comes to difficult coyotes.

I have called in some sheep areas in Wyoming that have been heavily worked by WS and called old coyotes in during the prime fur season.

I'll be willing to bet that I could come in behind you and remove old coyotes and you could do the same behind me just by the fact that none of us do things quite the same or see the country from the same perspective. We have a lot of tools at our disposal and the most difficult coyotes by one method might be the easiest by another.

Case in point. Slim Pedersen told me about one particular old coyote he was not able to catch. A local ranch kid snubbed a trap up to a cow carcass and caught that coyote. I think we often make them

Sorry to break it to you but you don't have the corner market on difficult coyotes.

Consider yoursef fortunate to be in an area with good sheep numbers. It will make you a better coyote hand by force. LOL! If it was so easy, it wouldn't be a specialized trade.

When it comes to comparing ADC hands, there is a lot of factors that enter in. Workloads, district sizes, sheep numbers, access, coyote numbers, public land issues, distances traveled, distribution of problem areas, aerial service, ground conditions, guard dogs, calling and trapping pressure, and the list goes on. I don't even want to get started down that road.

I was fortunate to follow in the footsteps of many good ADC hands. One that I consider a mentor had over 200 producers show up at his retirement party. Nobody can say anything complimentary about this particular ADC hand that's going to top that show of appreciation. Those are the men that I want to learn from. This isn't just about killing coyotes, it's about how we do our job and interact with those we serve.

This ADC mission statement sums it up best..

To prevent and minimize livestock loss in the most efficient and cost effective manner possible relative to the available resources.

The measure of success is the body count on dead livestock relative to the workload, not the body count on dead coyotes.

CH: "The thought that you can go from state to state with the same bag of tricks and expect the same results just does not hold water with me."

I am talking in terms of the majority of recreational coyote hunting situations and you are talking in terms of removing the last PHD coyote out of sheep range. Now that's quite a contrast. LOL!

From the ADC standpoint, I can assure you that I could call and kill many of your rankest coyotes. Again, you don't have the corner on difficult coyotes.

CH: "I am saying your methods and techniques on problem coyotes over here wouldn’t work. LOL Mine are working that is why I disagree with your approach on my coyotes."

Ahh....ok? Things must really change when you cross over into Wyoming because they certainly work at the border.

I guess I'll just have to prove you wrong someday. LOL! Don't take these discussions too seriosuly. The bantor is all part of the fun.

~SH~

[ September 19, 2010, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by Sage Buster (Member # 3665) on September 19, 2010, 03:28 PM:
 
After reading all seven pages I have concluded that even though some of you think you know all there is to know about coyotes, you really don't.

Why don't you? Until one of you develops some type of gonkulator or flux capacitator that can read the mind of coyotes, why they howl, the type of howl they throw out, etc., then you're mainly pulling stuff out of your ass. You're still willing to be the elite internet expert, but did you know that since the dawn of the internet, there have been perhaps one billion experts on a billion topics.

If you have really hunted long and hard, then you would admit that sometimes coyotes don't read the textbooks plus they probably don't log on the internet.

Case in point. Yesterday we did some calling on the desert country along the Idaho-Nevada border. Made 5 or 6 solid stands but no takers. Did have 2 coyotes hang up on us but they would come no closer then maybe a quarter mile. On the last stand of the evening, we drove down this frequently used gravel road, crossed a bridge and then pulled over to walk into stand. While gathering the gear at the tailgate of the Tundra I looked towards the south right across the bridge and thought I saw a coyote standing right on the edge of the road, about 200 yards away and the exact spot we just drove by 2 minutes earlier. Binoculars concurred that it was indeed a coyote. I grabbed my FX3 and immediately turned it on to the first rabbit distress. This coyote then proceeds to come straight towards us and my partner ended up killing it about 100 feet away.

Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers, why did this coyote respond to a call within plain sight of two hunters shooting the shit milling around the tailgate of a pickup truck? I searched the internet over but cannot find the answer. Surely one of you self proclaimed experts can clue me in. Maybe if that guy who has killed 5,000 coyotes would sign up here and tell us all the secret. Until then, I'll just have to rely on you
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 19, 2010, 03:48 PM:
 
Sage guy
As one of the experts says "only the yippers know for sure and they aint talkin" I am not sure that you read what I read , but I dont think anyone claimed anything but an educated opinion on anything.Anyone that claims they Know for sure why a coyote does anything at any give time or situation is up for some ridicule.Thats why I read a lot and post very little.This place is a wealth of info just gotta sort out the bulshit from the ice cream.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 19, 2010, 05:13 PM:
 
Thank you Scott. Both for the (undeserved) kind words, and for taking the time to answer my questions. I really do appreciate it. And I gleaned some nuggets from your effort, that I'm going to put into practice this year.

Leonard put it very well, as far as my typical approach to a new area. I'll give myself a little bit of credit, for being able to recognize likely coyote holding structure in the landscape and read sign on the ground. But after I take my best guess at where I think the coyotes are going to be, it's exactly like Leonard said, I just start calling it until I get into them and that frequently turns into a lot of wasted time.

I think I can implement some pre-dawn locating in some of those situations though. My distance between stops was already perfectly in line with what you talked about. And I think my sounds have been okay too, though I've generally had better luck with mouth blown "lone howls" than the electronic group howls. But based on your comments, I think I may have been spending way too much time waiting for responses. Cutting down on the wait times (by quite a bit), changes the efficiency of the whole operation a lot, to the point I can see myself giving up a couple hours of sleep in the morning to do it.

And, I'd absolutely love to get the chance to hunt with you some day. Leonard too. I'm not sure I'd hold up my end of the bargain, as far as anyone learning anything, from me, but I know I'd learn a lot from both of you. Maybe Leonard and I can talk you into coming out for a Nevada hunt one of these days.

Thanks again!

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 19, 2010, 05:43 PM:
 
SB,

I am not claiming to be an expert,but I might be able to answer your question about your recent coyote calling experience since I have hunted that Northern Nevada area quite a bit over the last 20 plus years.Some of those Owyhee desert Coyotes are just plain STUPID.....lol

I've killed alot of those stupid coyotes over the years up there...

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 19, 2010, 06:50 PM:
 
Sage: "Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers, why did this coyote respond to a call within plain sight of two hunters shooting the shit milling around the tailgate of a pickup truck?"

Since you have stretched your imagination to the point that someone expressing an opinion on coyote behavior somehow believes they know all there is to know about coyote behavior, I doubt my explanation on your situaion will make sense to you but I'll give it a try.

The coyote in question was a ignorant pup that hadn't had any negative experiences with a dying rabbit sound coming from near a pickup. In the case of that coyote, the curiousity of the caller outweighed the concern with the pickup.

Was that supposed to be a difficult question?

~SH~
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on September 19, 2010, 07:08 PM:
 
I'd enjoy being a shadow to Scott and Dave, and just tag along and watch. Ive really never utilized coyote vocalizations in my particular technique, unless it's using ki-yi's and pup distress, to bring back one or two from a multiple call-in after killing one. Im truely ignorant of howling; half ashamed to admit it, because Ive been doing this so long and never really understood the how's and whys'.
I think my technique mirrors Daves' somewhat, in the fact that Im either very lucky, or just have so damned much time invested plugging around the desert, that Ive come to understand where and what kind of country holds(or should hold) coyotes.
Using howling and vocalizations is obviously my glaring weak point, and something I should probably get some knowledge of. I just don't think I can gain it by blind pigging my way around the desert blowing on a howler?
If we could get Scott to become a video prostitute, he could turn a buck or two peddling howling videos:)
 

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Posted by coyotehunter (Member # 3282) on September 19, 2010, 07:16 PM:
 
Thanks Scott we are on the same page........We have to get in the truck together some time. Its September and I am about wore out on sheep right now and a little jadded at this point in the season. On the home stretch and want to get some snow flakes on my windshield. Been a tough year with no rabbits and record high sheep prices right now. I know it sounds like I think I am the only one with problems but I know better. I talked with 3 ranchers today about coyotes and sheep during 2nd docking and that is a pretty normal amount of calls per day. Someone seen one, heard one, or smelt one.

quote:

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Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers

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Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers, why did this coyote respond to a call within plain sight of two hunters shooting the shit milling around the tailgate of a pickup truck?

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I will give you my favorite story about never figuring out coyotes.

We were in almost roadless country, driving washes in some nameless place. At one point, we decided to get out and spread a good map across the hood and figure out how to get where we wanted to be, without actually knowing where we were.

Well, this was within a 100 yards of a dirt tank that is common in those parts and one of us, I actually think it was me, spotted three coyotes standing in a bare spot on the top of the berm. Well, two of us did a countdown and dropped two of them, ya know, take the right one and I'll take the left. This was very successful except there were three but we figured he high tailed it into the next county, which was quite a ways away.

So, we drove right up to the base of the berm, nobody very alert, of course, and that third dog came out of the bushes and without a care in the world, just lazily trotted right in front of the truck and out in the flats. Well, my daredevil son was driving and took off after the coyote, bouncing us and the gear al over the place. Coyote found another gear and got away.

What happened? Well, we were engaged in an activity that those coyotes saw as nonthreatening and being curious as humans, decided to observe what we were doing.

I think it could have been the same way in the other situation, puttering around and already past the coyote, which is something they surely understand, as opposed to crossing in front of a moving vehicle. Seems to me the threat was subdued if not extinguished altogether? Perfectly understandable behavior.

I have more examples, but, you get the picture.

Good hunting.

[ September 19, 2010, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on September 20, 2010, 06:48 AM:
 
One time I was in a tree stand when bow hunting I heard a coyote howl to the west of me. Then after a few seconds to the south a coyote in a pine plantation next to a subdivision howled back. When that coyote let a single howl back it was real mellow and easy sounding. It seemed like since it was next to some houses the coyote did not want to howl to loud but loud enough so the other coyote could hear it to say “I’m over here”. The coyotes single howled back to each other a few more times and each time they did they were working their way closer to each other. When they got together they did some yipping and went quite. Since that time I try to make my howls with my open reed howler to sound real mellow and easy like what I heard from the coyote in the pine plantation. Just a single mellow howl every 10 min or so and I have had good luck with it all thru my normal hunting season Oct – March.
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on September 20, 2010, 09:17 AM:
 
Great thread guys! One of the best I have read in years.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 20, 2010, 01:48 PM:
 
DAA- Depends on if you are locating for a large area and just wondering where everyone is or looking for a particular coyote or group of coyotes. I'm on the same page as far as distance traveled between tring it. I do however think that if there is light not enough guys are looking through their binocs while listening especially in high pressure areas. I spot a lot of my coyotes that i'm tring to locate. If they don't howl more times then not they will come up and take a look. I don't own nor have i recorded any secret locating sound.LOL I do have a old tape that the old timers say is the best one out there but can't find a tape player for it! LOLOLOL.

On the comment about knowing it all or being the "A-Team" I had to get a chuckle. I'm one of the fortunate guys that gets to do a job that he loves and has a passion for. I simply am allowed more time in the field than most guys. Now even if i didn't know much or didn't study coyotes like i do the shear number of hours in the field i believe give me some credability. I never heard anyone claim to "know it all" it's simply a discussion that happens to have a combined hours in the field of extroadianary numbers. between Wily, Randy, Coyotehunter, Leonard, DAA, 3toes and the rest that i can't name there is a lot of different views from differnt parts of the country and different jobs at hand (sheep, cattle, recreational calling ect ect.) My opinion is my professional opinion on what i THINK i know on coyotes and what i see in the field 365 days a year. Take the chip off of your shoulder and think a little. I agree with scott on your expierence you might very well be the first humans or pickup that pup had seen you pose no threat yet. I figured you could figure that one out yourself.

There is many differnt facets to ADC work from Sheep to Cattle to intermixed to urban coyotes tough to compare and tough to see the other guys problems unless you work his country and get his phone calls. I have less sheep than the counties around me but have WAY more calve problems than those counties for obvious reasons. Losing a $600 calve a night or one or two $100 lambs a night it still is coyotes that need to be removed slice it however you want.

This is the kind of discussions that a guy can learn from or at least start thinking about things in a different way from.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 26, 2010, 07:38 AM:
 
nd: "I do however think that if there is light not enough guys are looking through their binocs while listening especially in high pressure areas. I spot a lot of my coyotes that i'm tring to locate. If they don't howl more times then not they will come up and take a look."

That's exactly right and I have found that the percentage of coyotes that will take a look as opposed to vocally responding increases as the distance between caller and coyotes decreases. The further out they are, the more likely they are to vocally respond.

~SH~
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 26, 2010, 10:00 AM:
 
Darn it Scott, if you give away anymore secretes I'm going to have to ask for my money back..
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 26, 2010, 11:13 AM:
 
FWIW... I have seen instances in rolling grassland type cover, where a rifle shot will get them to stand up, stretch-yawn and look around too. They may do the same in sage and cedar, but are too hard to spot in that stuff so I don't know.

- DAA
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 26, 2010, 11:38 AM:
 
Funny you mentioned that, Dave.
Couple weeks back, my bud was up at the farm and he had a bead on a woodchuck. He miffed the shot, and as he surveyed the meadow for other 'heads' popping up, a coyote had sat up out of the goldenrod and was just sitting there staring in his direction! After a couple seconds to reconnoiter, the coyote then stood up, 'stretched' and mosy-ed on down into the brushy bottom a few yards away...

Our season opens Oct 1st, so that coyote had a free pass. I thoroughly plan on rescinding that allowance & making that coyote's acquaintence sometime next Saturday. Or one of his packmates, at least!

Still enjoying the main topic & apologize for the sidetrack...
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 27, 2010, 08:29 AM:
 

quote:

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Leonard, I agree with your statement about locating at night. If you get a response, it only proves they are there at that time. Around here, they travel long distances in their hunting cycle, and may not be anywhere near where they were the night before.

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quote:

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nd: "I do however think that if there is light not enough guys are looking through their binocs while listening especially in high pressure areas. I spot a lot of my coyotes that i'm tring to locate. If they don't howl more times then not they will come up and take a look."

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Greenside: Well nothing to prevent them from doing that at night is there. Spending to much time waiting for a howl back can get you a educated coyote.

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With out a negative incident coming with the locating you shouldn't be doing much harm. Coyotes howl at trains and noon whistles all over the country. Unless he comes running right in to the pickup in the dark there shouldn't be much of a negative to locating. Seeing a pair of headlights driving down the road after a group of coyotes howled shouldn't be alarming to a coyote sitting at a 1/2 mile.
 

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Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on October 02, 2010, 04:28 AM:
 
Greenside: "....instead of asking the farmer or rancher where he's hearing coyote at night to ask him where he's not hearing them."

Here's the deal greenside. Sure, how far a coyote or coyotes move in an evening is going to vary from area to area but having spent a lot of years calling coyotes year round in many different states, I can assure you that IN MANY CASES (not all), there is going to be certain areas that have more attraction to coyotes as a daytime resting site than others. If you get coyotes to respond to a howl as the yard lights are coming on, that is obviously close to where they spent their time during the day. If you question the value of that information, then you will also have to question why those who locate coyotes consistantly kill more coyotes than those who don't. Debating the value of coyotes is like debating the value of gun stabilization. There's no reasonable argument against it.

TA: "Darn it Scott, if you give away anymore secretes I'm going to have to ask for my money back.."

I know you are being half serious but I do want to address the comment since you mention it. The difference between telling someone about coyote calling techniques and showing them is where the value in personal instruction comes in. Some students have the ability to apply what they have been taught and others continue to search for a "silver bullet" that doesn't exist. What I showed a particular student in Canada made the difference between his killing 3 coyotes in a day to his killing 10 - 12 in a day.

Congratulations on your winning the Mr. Coyote contest at the VHA. Great shooting.


~SH~

[ October 02, 2010, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 02, 2010, 01:05 PM:
 
Like I mentioned before if you are worried about the coyotes moveing away from a area you located at nite then just do youre locateing a few hours before lite..

Two winters ago Randy and I went through part of my area early in the A.M. and located coyotes till we thought I had enough for a calling contest. ( over 30 coyotes located )

I kept track of the areas we located in and how many responded and who's pasture they where in.
I went back into my calling area a few days later and a few weeks also and then back again a month later, the coyotes where still there. Like was mentioned if you find them just as it gets dark or early mourning they will most likely be there for some time..
On one locateing stand we where on a two track going into a pasture and stopped to locate. We had a coyote answer right away and it was'nt very far from the truck when it howled and we could tell it was moveing in our direction so we just jumped in the truck and drove off..
The very next mourning I called this coyote in for ARShaw.

I've also had the same happen here at home when locateing, I would stop along a CRP field at nite to locate and a coyote would answer back knowing that I was there. I would comeback a week or two later and coyote would still answer and was close to the same location each time..

P.S. Thanks Scott.
By the way I can't get ahold of Colton on the phone. I need to get things lined up for the contest in early Dec.

[ October 02, 2010, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 02, 2010, 03:38 PM:
 
"Like was mentioned if you find them just as it gets dark or early mourning they will most likely be there for some time"
--------------------------------------
I believe Scott meant that if you locate them right after dark, there is a good chance that they haven't left their favorite daytime hidey hole yet.
My own thoughts tell me that he is correct. Now if you locate them just before dawn, you better be sneaking over there pretty quick because they will soon be traveling to their daytime hidey hole.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 02, 2010, 05:22 PM:
 
Try to grasp the concept, Tim. I hunt all night and I hunt all day, or mostly, all morning, at least.

I happen to know, for a fact that my coyotes hunt the open prairies during the hours of darkness and amble towards their bedrooms, located in the canyons and washes uphill from the valley floor sometime in the morning.

Let's review. Night time, the are all over the alfalfa and CRP. It does no good to "locate" these animals two hours before daylight because they (most likely) won't be there by the time it's light enough to make day stands. They will be up the washes and why would I locate them there? I already know where they snooze during the daytime.

If I should need to locate during daylight, I'm actively hunting them, at the same time because MANY MANY times, (75%) they refuse to answer a howl with a howl. Instead, they approach the sound and I will be waiting for them.

If, on the other hand, I get a vocal response from over in the next drainage, I will know what to do. Grab my buckethead and skoot.

This ain't rocket science.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 02, 2010, 07:01 PM:
 

quote:

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I happen to know, for a fact that my coyotes hunt the open prairies during the hours of darkness and amble towards their bedrooms, located in the canyons and washes uphill from the valley floor sometime in the morning.

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Here's the deal greenside. Sure, how far a coyote or coyotes move in an evening is going to vary from area to area but having spent a lot of years calling coyotes year round in many different states, I can assure you that IN MANY CASES (not all), there is going to be certain areas that have more attraction to coyotes as a daytime resting site than others. If you get coyotes to respond to a howl as the yard lights are coming on, that is obviously close to where they spent their time during the day.

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