The New Huntmastersbbs!: Eastern vs. Western Coyote

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 11, 2010, 06:20 PM:

From the 2010-2011 Pennsylvania Wildlife annual:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=726571&mode=2

THE EASTERN COYOTE:
WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
Using modern genetic techniques two colleagues
from the New York State Museum and I explored
the genetics of eastern coyotes to try and provide a better answer as to what
it is and how it got here.
We obtained DNA samples from almost 700
coyotes from Ohio east to New Jersey, and north
into Maine and southern Quebec, including 106
Pennsylvania animals from 32 different counties.
The results were simple, but striking.
Approximately 20 percent of the eastern coyotes we tested had a type of DNA typical of wolves from eastern Canada and the Great Lakes region, while only one sample was doglike. This is strong evidence for a recent (last 100 years) hybridization with wolves. Since that initial cross-breeding, hybrid animals have continued to cross back with coyotes, wolves and other hybrids, producing what is known as a “hybrid swarm.”
In addition to analyzing genetic samples, we
measured 196 skulls from the Northeast and confirmed earlier work showing that eastern
coyote skulls were larger than western coyotes,
especially in being extrawide. In addition, eastern coyotes are sexually dimorphic, with males being larger than females. This dimorphism is also seen in wolf populations, but not in western coyotes. Larger skulls would help an animal hunt and eat deer. The increased
consumption of deer in the east is one of the
primary ecological differences from western
coyotes.

WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
From news and other accounts, we can trace the
routes of coyote movements into Pennsylvania
along two fronts: a slowmoving front coming east
from Indiana through Ohio, and a fast-moving
front coming south from Minnesota through
Ontario and New York. Coyotes moving
through Minnesota and Ontario encountered wolf
populations, and this seems to be where the
hybridization with wolves occurred. This influx of wolf genes, and ensuing rapid evolution into a
larger type of coyote, helped the northern front
move five times faster than the animals moving
through Ohio, which never encountered wolf
populations. The genetic pattern we observed in
Ohio suggests these animals faced no hybridization or major barriers to their movement.
Western Pennsylvania and western New York are
now a sort of contact zone between western coyotes spreading from Ohio and northeastern coyotes, or “coy-wolves” moving in from the north and east. How these types interact
is anyone’s guess. Last but not least —
what should we call this animal? Coydog seems
inaccurate, because we found so little evidence of dog genes in the population. Coywolf
might be more accurate, but may overstate the
amount of wolf influence. For now, I prefer ‘Eastern Coyote,’ because it implies the animal is still a coyote, but is different
than its western cousin: just as wily, no doubt, but even more adaptable, with a little help from the wolves.

The Eastern Coyote: Where did it come from? by Roland Kays, Curator of Mammals
New York State Museum
Adapted from
“Eastern Coyote,”
Pennsylvania Game
News, April 201

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 11, 2010, 06:54 PM:

almost 100% bullshit

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 11, 2010, 07:50 PM:

And you know this because.....?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 11, 2010, 09:29 PM:

I guess it's because The conclusions and generalizations indicate sloppy research? Coywolf is bullshit, simple as that. I ain't buying it and they can't prove none of it.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 12, 2010, 04:09 AM:

"In addition, Eastern Coyotes are sexually dimorphic, with males being larger than females. This dimorphism is also seen in wolf populations, BUT NOT IN WESTERN COYOTES."

Really???? [Eek!]

I didn't know that.

"Larger skulls would help an animal hunt and eat deer."

It didn't help the Dire Wolf. Or maybe it did. These Eastern Coyotes could actually be an undiscovered population of Dire Wolves that migrated south out of the vast Canadian wilderness. There is no proof at the present time, but the possibility is too important to ignore. This species needs full federal protection while further studies are done. Increased grant money needs to be made availible for this vital research to continue.

Now,............ Somebody prove me wrong. [Big Grin]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 12, 2010, 05:10 AM:

A sample group of 700 is fairly good. Seeings as how this appears to be an inter-agency publication as opposed to a peer-reviewed journal, I wouldn't expect them to include all the various and sundry details of the manner in which the samples they tested for DNA were handled and processed. I can only suppose that if we were to approach their agency biologists and ascertain as to exactly how the samples were processed, their methodology would be consistent with how it should be done. To always dismiss everything science as being sloppy research with no more to go on than has been offered here is pretty silly.

Now, I do agree with Koko in that the one sentence he quoted caught my eye as well. Apparently, they haven't assessed too many Kansas pop'ns as there is a striking difference between adult males and females/ subadult males, size wise. But I will say that it's been my experience that much of the older literature does base distinctions between populations of differing subspecies by cranial measurements. I thought of this during the recent debate over whether subspecies truly exist and recalled that many times, distinctions between one versus another were made by looking at cranial measurements and specific ratios between two or more measurements, such as the ratio of length versus width measuring the distance of the jaw from first premolar to rearmost molar, and the width measured at the point of the first premolars.

I guess I'm just saying that to accept your premise that what the author is stating here is bullshit with no evidence to support this other than your historical arguments against global warming is less accurate than his hypotheses based upon DNA sampling of 700 different coyotes. Not all DNA testing is conspiratorial or just a means to additional funding through junk science. If you have the data to shoot down his working hypothesis, let's see it, but they offered more than just their personal opinions when they tested their sample group. If it's junk science, why?

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 12, 2010, 08:05 AM:

Ok..............I may not be as extreme in my views on studies as El Bee can tend to be, but I do feel that any study is subject to debate, even from members of the unwashed, unlearned general public such as myself.

I can accept (until shown otherwise) that this study was well intentioned, well meaning and having no hidden adgenda. This doesn't mean that I don't question the conclusions. While I barely know enough about DNA to be able to spell it, I do know that DNA testing wasn't able to prove that O.J. was guilty, so I have a bit of a problem with DNA showing trace amounts of wolf genes. Maybe if I understood it better........

Mention was made of skulls & measurements. This was said to indicate larger animals back east. Nothing was mentioned about the way the skulls were collected or if the animals that provided the skulls were put into age groups.

Just for yucks & giggles, lets say that the skulls from back east were collected from road kill and the skulls from further west were donated by trappers. Without documenting the average ages, it could go unnoticed that the eastern samples contain more mature animals than the western ones. Already we have a problem; what the study in the example given actually proves is that full grown eastern coyotes are not 'road smart' and that mature western coyotes can tend to be 'trap wise'. No bad intentions on the part of the reasearchers, no gunman on the grassy knoll, just the wrong conclusion, due to nothing more that an overlooked variable.

Next week we can discuss this nonsense about the speed of light being constant. [Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 12, 2010, 09:43 AM:

Look, Lance. The very first thing that strikes me as odd, is the laughable "news and other accounts" that "document" where the coyotes came from, and how they got "back east" .....on two different fronts, even. Really? Was a trail cam employed?

I have been told that only idiots are impressed by numbers; like "almost 700". Who would waste taxpayer money doing DNA testing on "almost 700" coyotes?

Anytime they throw out the wolf hybred angle, I consider it my duty to be skeptical. Most of the colonization has been within living memory. For instance, when I was a boy in Minnesota, there were no coyotes. Now, a few hundred miles away, our dinky western coyotes crossbred with wolves in order to get the larger heads.

And, you damned right! I can claim bullshit just like GLOBAL WARMING. The "poetic license" these sloppy researchers take is unforgivable. I can never take this crap on blind faith. I don't like the question:

quote:
THE EASTERN COYOTE:
WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?

They have tried to cover all the bases with conjecture and supposition while waving the phony DNA flag supported by news accounts. Initial cross breeding 100 years ago? Really? They forgot to include ALIEN SPACESHIPS. Came to them in a friggin' dream sequence, perhaps?

Look, Tom...er, I mean Lance. There is plenty to pick apart but I don't have the interest in doing it, right now. Suffice to say, I don't believe their lame report, which is my right, I believe?

And, another thing. I do not automatically discount every single scientific paper that I see. I try to focus on those that stink. Because. Sloppy research offends me greatly.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on July 12, 2010, 11:55 AM:

what no AMIGO. You got to try harded Cdog.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 12, 2010, 12:09 PM:

East:

West:

East:

West:

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 12, 2010, 01:06 PM:

Yeah, AMIGO!

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 12, 2010, 01:16 PM:

What an unscientific and vaguely written piece of garbage that one is.

Even though it's "adapted from the "Eastern Coyote" Pennsylvania Game News, April 2010, it's still filled with major flaws.

"We obtained DNA samples from almost 700
coyotes from Ohio east to New Jersey..."

- Was it 500, 600.....710 ??? Come on authors, saying "Almost" in this type of context puts them into the "clueless" gang right off.

"Approximately 20 percent of the eastern coyotes we tested had a type of DNA typical of wolves from
eastern Canada and the Great Lakes region, while
only one sample was doglike."

Doing some quick math on their fuzzy numbers:

Approximately 20% of Almost 700 = About 140 animals subtract the one dog model = About 139

"This is strong evidence for a recent (last
100 years) hybridization with wolves."

- About 139 divided by Almost 700 multiplied by 100% is Approximately 19.9%.
Strong evidence is based on less than 1/5th of the data set having a specified gene? I'd call it weak evidence at best.

"Since that initial cross-breeding, hybrid animals have continued to cross back
with coyotes, wolves and other hybrids, producing
what is known as a “hybrid swarm.”

-I'd say that since they can't get the original data on where or what the genes initially came from other than a vague "type of DNA" claim, this cross back swarming theory is just that..a theory. If they used this current, fuzzy data and continued to do some real research and published the data 20, 30, 50 years down the road with hard numbers, we'd have a baseline to work from.

WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
From news and other accounts
- Gotta believe everything the news and "other accounts" tells you.

"Coyotes moving through Minnesota and Ontario encountered wolf populations, and this seems to be where the hybridization with wolves occurred."

-I'm guessing then that Alaska should start seeing if not already, a "hybrid" Coyote/Wolf mix in the near future. And I've always been told that the local wolves kill those coyotes.

"This influx of wolf genes, and ensuing rapid evolution into a larger type of coyote, helped the northern front move five times faster than the animals moving through Ohio, which never encountered wolf populations."

-I didn't realize that by cross breeding, a species has evolved. So a Horse and Donkey that breeds, creates an "evolved" Mule?

Great read, might as well shut down the entire east coast to any type of canine hunting until further studies can be completed and analyzed.

[ July 12, 2010, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 12, 2010, 01:16 PM:

"Look, Tom...er, I mean Lance."

How the hell did I get drug into this?

Amigo out.

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 12, 2010, 01:35 PM:

I have to agree with TW. I worked with DNA markers in cattle years ago. 20% is not far out of the realm of false conclusions found when all variables are known. Also, if someone sampled the population in different directions( lets say west of the great lake region), would the results be similar? I would think there would be some blending of gene markers along boundries. But, the biggest question this study raises is....Who gives a shit???

Maintain

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 12, 2010, 01:52 PM:

I'm with you on CrossJ, who cares? If they dig deep enough into the DNA, they'll probably find that they all came from the elusive Sabre Toothed Chupacabra. Waste of money and time to prove that a canine has wolf genes in them if you ask me.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 12, 2010, 02:28 PM:

After b.s.ing about this topic several times, I've come to the conclusion that our coyotes are just BIGGER for the same reasons a Canadian whitetail is BIGGER than a Coues deer...

Google "Bergmann's Rule". It explains body size in relation to surviving in colder climates. Also, a larger body size allows our coyotes to prey on whitetail deer more efficiently, as does a learned 'pack oriented' modus operandi...

Wolves they ain't, they just act more like wolves than western coyotes do.

edited: 'cause the link I pasted, broke. Google is your friend.

[ July 12, 2010, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 12, 2010, 03:06 PM:

KnockemDown,
That's a good theory, but it suggests that Alaska would have some of the biggest Coyote's in the country, since we're the furthest north and have the coldest weather. Our coyote's however are not exceptionally large by any stretch, with most of them in the 22-30lb range.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/pubs/notebook/furbear/coyote.php

Trappers hate the coyote's up here and several trappers I know have commented about the increase in numbers north of the Yukon River in the past 8 years.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 12, 2010, 03:24 PM:

Tundra;
Bergmann's Rule seems to be pretty much accepted, but at some point the supply of quality food (protein) seems like it would have to be a factor. As I remember, there is a pretty decent food base in the eastern states. Possibly more than in Alaska?? That might 'splain a few things.

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 12, 2010, 03:51 PM:

quote:
How the hell did I get drug into this?

I was wondering that myself.

Perhaps Leonard meant a different Tom?

Edit: Disregard.

[ July 12, 2010, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 12, 2010, 04:42 PM:

"just as wily, no doubt, but even more adaptable, with a little help from the wolves."
--------------------------------------
Now that be funny RAT there. If wolves are just as wiley as coyotes, and even more adaptable, I wonder why the hunters and trappers nearly wiped out the wolves, and the coyote population continued to climb?

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 12, 2010, 05:08 PM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How the hell did I get drug into this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I was wondering that myself.

Perhaps Leonard meant a different Tom?"

I'm sure he did. I can't imagine him thinking of me while using that tone.

He probably meant nasa or maybe even the pony tail wearing Tom but I couldn't resist.

As for the topic? I have no freakin clue.

[ July 12, 2010, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 12, 2010, 05:15 PM:

Yes I just sent you an email on it.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 12, 2010, 05:16 PM:

Tundra/Koko,

Might could be that the presence of REAL wolves in AK feasting on ungulates has kept the coyote limited to smaller prey...
It would only make sense then that a smaller coyote would survive more better-er while occupying that predatory role...

Given the fact that we don't have REAL wolves here in the east, it would seem that the coyotes are simply 'growing' into the predatory niche that wolves once occupied. With the premise behind Bergmann's Rule helping along the way...

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 12, 2010, 05:17 PM:

koko,
I'd agree that Bergmann's is a highly acceptable ecological rule, but there is plenty of high protein food up here for predators: (Moose, Caribou, Hares..etc). I've heard it said before and have also seen in my hunting travels that wolves keep our coyotes in check and out of the "back-country". Most of the coyotes that people hear, see, and trap are closer to the highways and road systems in Alaska. Wolves on the other hand, tend to stay away from the civilized world and run huge circuits that can take from 2-3 weeks to complete depending on food sources along their travels. That still doesn't answer the question of why ours don't follow Bergmann's Rule though. Maybe they're like the dog mushers who prefer to use the smaller, more efficient Huskies over the Malamutes for running the Iditarod and Yukon Quest. I guess Alaska just got a bad dose of mystery DNA with their coyotes.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 12, 2010, 05:40 PM:

That's something else that I don't understand all that I know about; It's always been a given that coyotes are nothing but chew toys for wolves. Now all of the sudden we get to an area where there are no wolves, but little wolf / coyote love pups taking over. [Confused]

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 12, 2010, 05:48 PM:

Maybe they should plant wolves again in those areas, impose a no hunting rule for any canine and then let them have at it. May the best dog win!
[Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 12, 2010, 06:01 PM:

The question of size is many faceted. I have a friend that lives about five miles from here. We both have bluebelly lizards, but, I swear, mine are slightly smaller. Has no import to the discussion, it's just a <shrug> and a who gives a shit?

Are the coyotes in the northern half of Nevada larger than Arizona coyotes? Generally speaking, the answer is, yes. On average.

Historically, coyotes have been primarily a western animal, practically unheard of until about 40 years ago....not 100 years, as this silly report claims. The idea that they relied on news reports to trace the movements of an animal as elusive as a coyote, (to me, is laughable). I never used to feel so betrayed by the Media, but there is no doubt that newspaper accounts are biased, frequently, if not more so.

I'm just surprised that Cdog (Amigo) rushes to the defense of an article that (to me) has ambiguities you could drive a truck through? And, come on! Almost 700 DNA tests? There was a piece not long ago about cold case files and the lack of funds to analyzed rape victims which occured 30 years ago when they didn't have the technology. But, here it seems that these departments have the money to do all this sequencing, and for what purpose? To find out just where the heck those wiley coyotes came from? From people that apparently couldn't find their ass in the dark! They came from out west, damn it! I know because I personally chased them the hell out!

Now, why they are larger is sorta like why white tail deer grow bigger racks in some areas. It's the minerals or the water or some other reason, like Bergmann's. Why it has not manifested itself in Alaska or Canada, I do not know, other than being the exception that proves the rule?

But, if a person reads what we have been presented as true shit, and accepts it as gospel, just because some agency letterhead is on it, then, my gullible AMIGO, you need to stay clear of fast talking salesmen down at the car lot.

Whatever.

edit: the "Tom" in question, for all you late comers is Tom Turner, known on the boards as NASA. Historically, we (him and I) have had several disagreements about published scientific data, which I question, and he accepts as though handed down from the Heavens as Holy Writ. Which is fine. A difference of opinion is expected and healthy, except that he would venture into an area where he would strongly suggest that I must be an idiot....and why he no longer participates in these discusions. I have no problem with disagreements, but please refrain from calling the management stupid.

[ July 12, 2010, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 12, 2010, 06:08 PM:

You wanna buy some snake oil AMIGO, I'm having a buy one get one free sale?

Leonard,
PM me...I mean email me Aaron's cell number if you can, he called me and I want to call him back, thanks.

[ July 12, 2010, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 12, 2010, 07:44 PM:

Now, now. El bee. Take a double dose of blood poressure meds and chase it with a Miller Lite and settle yourself down.

I'm sitting here looking at this article in the PA Game news and it sure doesn't look anything like any sort of literature I've ever read. Looks more like someone condensed a study paper which read like stereo directions into something a bit more palatable for the sort of people who read such a publication and who either do not understand statistics, or don't give a rat's rear end about them and just want the high points. I can't recall the last actual Journal article where I saw the word "almost" used to modify the size of a sample group.

I'm not getting all bent out of shape over this, because I don't know anyone who has a vested personal interest in the outcome of this debate. It could go either way and I'd not lose a wink of sleep over it. At the same time, they offer one side and you offer the other. I suppose if we had a discussion with the people who actually collected the samples for DNA analysis, we might get a more complete picture of what they did, and why. I suppose the PA F&G people found some grant money to use and try to understand what the hell was eating all the deer their license buyers aren't getting to hunt anymore and they had enough to do that many samples. At the same time, lacking a time machine, they probably used the best and only resource they had to document expanding coyote numbers in the region - anecdotal accounts and furbuyer records - which would be all that was available to evaluate relatvive changes in coyote numbers over the time from the first recorded appearances of coyotes to present. I guess, all in all, the biologists they hired because they were educated and qualified to call themselves such would come to the debate armed with their years of experience and the data sets they collected as part of this study, while we would come at them with our harshly worded criticisms of what is really nothing more than a press release for public consumption.

I'd almost pay to watch that one. Amigo! [Smile]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 12, 2010, 07:56 PM:

I knew I was still on your favorites list...

Koko, you made a point that wolves usually dined on coyotes instead of with them. That reminded me of my lost pointer pup. You may remember that I took her and another pup out and she got lost for a spell. I found her once and she run from me and disappeared.

I was calling on the same place a month or so later and called up a coyote and this pup together. There was no mistake, they were running together. Young coyote in need of a friend or maybe a girlfriend? Who knows.

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on July 12, 2010, 08:49 PM:

NO shit. which one did you shoot?

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 12, 2010, 09:16 PM:

I killed the pup after standing up and trying to call her in to me, the coyote got a free ride that day as the pup showed mucho promise.

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on July 12, 2010, 09:36 PM:

understand.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 12, 2010, 09:59 PM:

Lance, would you believe 104/68? It's a little too low and affecting other considerations.

But, no, I am not in a dither about anything. I do wish that you would understand that I am not anti science. I am offended by reports and studies that I consider flawed. It's just a peer review process and (should be)expected by those that write crap. Having singlehandedly alerted the world to the dishonesty surrounding GLOBAL WARMING, I'm not about to rest on my laurels when I smell BS. Nor, should you, Amigo.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 13, 2010, 02:35 AM:

I appreciate all the comments guys.

I figured the article would stimulate a little discussion, though I didn't figure it would be to this level. God only knows why the coyotes around here grow to the sizes they do.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 13, 2010, 05:34 AM:

"God only knows why the coyotes around here grow to the sizes they do.'

Because they can, seems to be the appropriate answer.

If I remember right, Bill Martz had a link or something discussing the wolves in Eastern Canada crossing with coyotes. Here's the link

http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 13, 2010, 11:11 AM:

After returning his lost hound to him, I shared an interesting conversation with a coyote houndsman...
He was of the opinion that our coyotes also had interbred with wolves somewhere along their pilgrimage east. He allowed that the sometimes wacky color phase coyotes we get here in NY are due to the infusion of wolf blood. I'm sure you guys have seen a pack of wolves and none of them are the same color. Well, I've seen different shades of coyotes here in NY: orange/white, rusty red/gray, light gray/black and normal 'western colored' ones. Just pointing it out for conversation...

DNA results be what they may, I'm of the opinion that coyotes get big here because they can! Lotsa deer to eat and they hunt those deer as a group. I've seen that with my own eyes, too. I'm glad they are BIG here, 'cause it makes 'em easier to hit... [Smile]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 13, 2010, 02:04 PM:

Yes, but.

The mentioning of wolf colors starts to get into my problem with the whole thing. Feral dogs come in all colors of the rainbow, as well, and then, as a bonus, you get that pesky wolf DNA with it, ya know?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 13, 2010, 02:48 PM:

I just HAD to check the validity of that survey. Here are the results.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 13, 2010, 03:09 PM:

104 systolic would be a problem. 68 diastolic is borderline too low. Do you have to get up in stages to keep from passing out? Dr has mine down to about 135/70 and seems pretty happy with it. I'll take it since I feel better these days than I have in about 30 years.

That hunting strategy where deer are the focal point of the entire pack intrigues me as well. I'm a firm believer that many behaviors- ours, coyote's, wolves - fall under the "nature" part of nature versus nurture and, although many behaviors are learned, many are innate and due to the way our brains are hardwired to be. Just watch a father and son over time and you'll see what I mean.

Do those eastern coyotes pack hunt deer simply because the opportunity exists or is it a holdover from the strategies usede by wolves to hunt large ungulates? we have a lot of deer in Kansas, and we're seeing more and more deer die due to coyotes, but it's still the exception rather than the rule. What percentage of the eastern wolf's diet do rodents, bunnies and small stuff make up?

Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on July 13, 2010, 04:38 PM:

From the reading I have done most biologists suggest they made their way here through Canada. Some in the South say they were brought here by fox hunters in the late 40’s.

I believe if the full blooded western coyote could survive and thrive here they would have made it here thousands of years ago by way of Canada or natural land bridges.

So what changes were there for the coyote to thrive and populate the east so quickly?

I believe it to be genetics on the coyote’s part.

All through the Southeast there are pockets of large coyotes. I have killed 50+lb coyotes as far South as Gainesville Fl and 25lb coyotes there also. I have noticed differences in these small and large coyotes.

In the smaller coyote areas the coyotes are more vocal and when calling their group will most likely come from the same direction and are predictable.

The larger coyotes are less vocal and come in singles from different directions.

Do you guys in the west have pockets throughout your area that produce larger and more color variations than others??

The larger eastern coyotes seem to have a lack of foot sweat, more weight and less aggressiveness toward its mate and siblings. What would create this??

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 13, 2010, 07:36 PM:

Tundra;
Maybe this is just a 'Form Follows Function' kind of thing. Wolves are just better suited to take on moose & caribou and eastern coyotes are better suited (in packs) to deal with whitetail deer yarded up in the snow and such conditions.

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 13, 2010, 09:50 PM:

quote:
Do you guys in the west have pockets throughout your area that produce larger and more color variations than others??

CCP, Here is a pic of two singles killed on a ranch I hunt and trap.

It is very common to kill coyotes with this reddish phase on this particular ranch. I also know of an area east of here that the greyhound guys frequent. They take several white footed coyotes out of there annually. Obviously specific phenotypic characteristic common in a specific gene pool, but not necessarily common among the species(or sub species).
As far as the theory of the wolf dna being necessary to give the western coyote the ability to migrate and flourish in the east.....could be. But, there is one factor that throws a kink in the theory, and that would be the intervention of man. Human alteration to his/the environment has created many migrations in the past. These include everything from zebra muscles into our intercontinental lakes to the Elks abandonment of the plains.
Anyway, since there seems to be a need to know why coyotes back east seem to have a tendency to get larger, I have another question. What if coyote numbers/densities back east grow to those of populations further west? Will the mean body size decrease? What role does population density play in this?
While I'm at it, how about one more theory. What about simple heterosis? As coyote populations migrated east, individuals from certain subspecies would mingle, creating an opertunity for heterosis.
There you have it, one simple study creates more questions, and answers few. Of course, we hard core coyote hunters know the real reason coyotes back east are bigger. That would be Global Warming.Sheesh, its so friggin obvious.

Maintain

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on July 13, 2010, 11:33 PM:

I read somewhere that the Eastern Red Wolf was thought to be the source of DNA in eastern coyotes, not the larger Canadian wolves...
could that provide a better explanation?

Nikonut

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 14, 2010, 02:51 AM:

Nikon I have read the same thing.

Anything is possible at this point.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 14, 2010, 05:00 AM:

Couple more pics, for reference...

"salt & pepper" male, 43 lbs:

"red-ish" female, 36 lbs:

another "salt & pepper" male, 41 lbs:

"red-ish" male, 45 lbs:

And a 'all in one' young male, 38 lbs:

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 14, 2010, 08:18 AM:

Well, out here (socal and AZ) that red phase is as common as dirt.

And, about the Texas red wolves. Honestly, you can not tell them from coyotes, just a little heavier. Doubtful that they could be the source of all those fat heads, back east. Actually, my little theory is that red woves bred themselves into obscurity, humping female coyotes. But of course, that would be contrary to all that data showing us how the coyotes got back there, wouldn't it?

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 14, 2010, 10:46 AM:

Your hypothesis would go hand in hand with the problems observed resulting from interbreeding between mallards and American black ducks. Here in the middle part of the best place on earth, we're seeing a lot of Eurasian collared doves and what appears to be fewer mourning (or turtle) doves which leads me to question whether the collared doves are ecologically more fit and displacing the mourning doves genetically. Will the day come when hard-core dove hunters will summarily dismiss our anecdotal accounts of how we saw mourning dove numbers plummet while collared doves exploded, and dismiss our layperson accounts of what we thought we were (are) seeing and why?

In any event, to your point, Leonard, let's say that yes, the red wolves did interbreed with coyotes. As is the apparent case with the ducks, the coyote genes leads to an animal which is better suited to adapting to a wider array of environmental conditions and are more adaptable to changes brought on, for example, by human intrusion, so in a micro versus macro sense, isn't it feasible to say that what might have happened to the red wolves is a very rapid, temporally compressed form of evolution where two interbreedable species bred, produced progeny, and the progeny that survived to reproduce were skewed toward one side of the family tree to the exclusion of the other?

At the same time, and along these lines, let's go back to Bergman's rule and how the spread of this hybrid going north and northeast in to the New England states could have been facilitated. Bergmans's Rule is based on surface area to volume ratios in animals that make them more able to survive certain weather extremes. For example, take a 2-inch cube, 2 inches wide on all six sides. each side has four square inches of surface, times six, which is 24 square inches of surface. The volume is only 8 cubic inches.

Now, increase the size of that cube to 3 inches. Nine sq. inches to a side, times six sides equals 54 square inches of surface area to a volume of 27 cubic inches.

32:8, or 4:1 in the smaller cube (or animal) compared to 54:27, or 2:1. Just by increasing the size of the animal 50% in one dimension, you're reduced it's surface area: volume ratio by one half. The theory behind Bergman's rule is that it adapts an animal for being able to thermoregulate by liberating body heat in warmer environments and conserving body heat (energy) in colder environs, and that is why animals to the south and in desert climates are generally smaller while northern subspecies are larger. In warmer places, more of the surface is exposed to liberate body heat, and combined with larger ears, longer legs (Allen's Rule), and shorter hair and body coverings, these animals are better able to survive whereas the larger animals would have a tough time being able to cool down enough to survive down south. I guess the point is that the crossbreeding thing could have happened, and that the hybrid pop'n went both north and south, with those going north adapting to the climate by exploiting the genotype that gives them the phenotypical size advantage resulting in larger individuals, while the same happened to those going south, exploiting their genes that allow them to remain smaller - sorta what Geordie is saying with heterosis, but just where offspring express more than one phenotype as governed by their physical location and and ambient conditions as the population expans and moves into new areas.

Just a wild-assed guess, which is as good as anyone else is offering, But, it might be the Miller Lite talking.

[ July 14, 2010, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on July 14, 2010, 12:02 PM:

Sounds about right to me Lance.

There has to be a viable explanation for the increase in coyote size and numbers in the East. I would have to believe it is a combination of all the given factors... Red Wolf DNA from the south and east and some Canadian DNA from the north mixed with domestic dog from both directions. Kind of like what one might see on a visit to Chicago... [Big Grin]

I too have seen a hugh increase in the Eurasian Collared Doves here along with an increase in Morning Dove populations in general. The state has even noticed this to the point of allowing the Eurasian doves toward a daily kill limit.
At the same time I have also noticed an increase in nesting pairs of Morning Doves in my apple orchard this year... it is in a more residential area. I think the larger more aggressive Eurasin doves are pressuring the smaller Mourning doves into non-typical nesting areas. I've also seen an increase in rabbit and deer numbers in town. All of this could be in part due to local farming practises(many fence/hedge rows removed this year)or maybe just an abundance of protected food sources and fewer predators. Should make for a better predator population next year! Could it also make for bigger coyotes? Possibly!

Nikonut

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 14, 2010, 07:12 PM:

These "collared" dove, are they the ones that look like a pigeon and Mourning dove got drunk and had a love child?

If so we've got plenty of those this year down here. Our annual dove hunt has yet to bring one of these birds to the ground but maybe this year.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 14, 2010, 07:57 PM:

Them's the ones. We have plenty of them here in Az. & as far as I know, there's no limit on them.

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on July 15, 2010, 05:38 AM:

Why do northern deer tend to be far heavier than the southern witetails? Different genes or does one think cross breeding?

The colder the climate the more body mass one needs, could it be these coyotes have adapted to the area for weather and available prey base such as far northern coyotes feeding far more on large prey than there southern counter parts and size to size matching up in the geographic area.

Look at how many monster whitetails are in Canada, yet in the high protein states of row crops even with all of that food, they still don't have the body mass of there larger cousins of the north.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 15, 2010, 01:18 PM:

If one were to theorize for say, a game Commssion report, one could surmise the following:
"As the whitetail deer expanded it's range northward into the taiga, it invariably cross-bred with the local moose, thereby creating a larger, mo' bigga, mo' betta whitetail. So, in fact, the presence of 'chocolate horns' on many monarch whitetails of the north can be attributed to a physical manifestation of the moose genome..."

"And to substantiate the presence of chocolate horns in other sub-species of whitetails further south, this phenomenon can be traced back to the 'reverse-osmosis' of the moose genotype (now present in the whitetail) as it dispersed southward again along with the melting Polar ice cap waters due to Global Warming..."

Make sense? [Big Grin]

[ July 15, 2010, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 15, 2010, 01:29 PM:

Yes, in an odd way! Did you have a hand it writing the original report upon which this thread began? The logic is very similiar.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 15, 2010, 01:36 PM:

stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night... [Wink]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 15, 2010, 02:18 PM:

Sooooooo................. That would indicate that Elk are the offspring of Caribou & Whitetail Deer???? [Confused]

Much more funding is needed for this important research before it's to late. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 15, 2010, 06:25 PM:

knockemdown,
Can you write up the study as to why the coyote's in Alaska are not that large yet we're so far north? This throws Bergmann out the window completely. We sport some of the biggest Moose, Beaver, Caribou and Bear, but the coyote's are lacking. I want a 100 pound coyote and am mad that they're not here. More funding and studies need to be done and knockem, you need to spearhead this venture. Call me when you get the money and need to setup research stations in AK.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 15, 2010, 06:39 PM:

Give it time, Wookie. Maybe your coyotes haven't been there long enough to bulk up?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 15, 2010, 06:56 PM:

Good call Leonard, I'll give them a bit of time to grow and cross-breed with the local wolves or wolverines, whichever they choose. I'd take an 80 pound, low-rider Coyverine with a nasty temperament, that'd be one mean critter.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 15, 2010, 07:03 PM:

No sweat if the theory is true, that they wandered up the coast from CA. Our coyotes are "green" and vegans. I read that somewhere; don't know if it's actually true?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 16, 2010, 05:17 AM:

Well, as it turns out, there IS a theory bouncing around the hollow walls of my brain bucket. So here goes:

"As it were, due to pressure in the form of southern immigration and flatulence from a to-fo & wheatgrass diet, some Kommiefornia coyotes began there trek northward to more hospitable grounds to the north...
"Along their migration, roving bands of Sasquatch inhabiting the temperate rainforests of Oregon & Washington State were encountered. Along with the locally hybridized (and quite ornery) Blacktail/Roosevelt ungulate faction, the Sasquatch successfully drove the Kommie coyotes ever northward. The coyotes had nothing but Yaquina Bay oysters, micro-brewed beers & the occasional $8.00 cup of "coffee" to sustain them as they pushed up in latitude. Albeit, a much welcomed change from the 'silly putty' like to-fo cubes and IN & OUT Burger wrappers they were accustomed to scrounging in the land of the Terminator...

"Once safely across the highly defended border, the Kommiefornia coyotes, now with French accents, integrated into the Canadian foodweb. Not long after, the dumbest of the now french Canadian coyotes, migrated eastward, settling in Saskatchewan & Alberta. There they found gainful employment as stars in Randy Anderson's coyote hunting videos. Work was good, with four & five of them getting the call on some stands! Those coyotes taken by the now famous "Wooly" Kowerchuk, were instantly martyred and assured of 72 virgin bitches to breed forevermore. Consequently, these 'frenchie' coyotes never had the time in camp necessary to develop the more robust body size found in the NE coywolf shepards who dine on kitty kats & small children...

"Alas, back to the original strain of french Canadian coyotes & their quest north to the "promised Land". Along the way, a researcher by the name of Bergmann guarded passage across the only land bridge to Alaska. In a 'copy-cat' slaying from a scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", the frenchie coyotes SACKED Bergmann, took the bridge & continued on into Alaska. Hence, Bergmann's Rule regarding coyotes would never be realized in the vast lands of Alaska...

FINALLY in Alaska, the local coyotes were greeted (and none to kindly) by the residing wolves. The wannave frenchie coyotes with ballz enough to fight were killed outright, with the lesser, more wimpy coyotes now regressing & exhibiting the 'pure pussy' attitude found so commonly in the land of their now native tongue (speaking french has been proven throughout history to do that).
The larger, faster coyotes who were able to flee, made a beeline toward the peninsula where they found happiness (and a wealth of riches) as deckhands on board Sig Hanson's "Northwestern" and some onf the other notable crab boats highlighted on the "Deadliest Catch" series. These coyotes are easily recognized by their behaviour of chain smoking, foul mouth and penchant for loose women...

" Now, back to the inland, faggotized, french speaking pussy coyotes who settled (on pins & needles) in wolf territory. These small, shy 'shadows of their former self' coyotes now live in constant fear, not only from the wolf, but from maniacs on snow machines toting CS-24 callers packed with irresistable secret sounds. The crinkling sound of an IN&OUT Burger wrapper brings them a runnin' like there is no tomorrow...

Period.
THE END

NOTE:
The preceding diatribe is in the process of being submitted for peer review to several agencies for validity & accuracy. Until such time, it should be taken as gospel truth and never questioned by ANYONE...

Period

[ July 16, 2010, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 16, 2010, 07:25 AM:

knockemdown & out,
You're a PhD author at it's finest and will probably go on to earn the Nobel Peace Prize for your hard work and studies. Bergmann can't hold a candle to you. Who told you about the better than CD Quality In & Out wrapper sounds? That's supposed to be Beyond Top Secret. I'll be cruising in the Batmobile, call me on the redphone and let me know how you discovered the magic trick.

-Snowmachine Maniac

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 16, 2010, 09:38 AM:

Sounds just crazy enough to be real. But. What the hell does an "easterner" know about In-N-Out?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 16, 2010, 11:01 AM:

We don't even have an In-N-Out here, I had to have my outside sources find me that wrapper sound. The old Carl's Junior version just wasn't cutting it anymore.

-CS-24 Wrap Star

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 16, 2010, 12:01 PM:

TW,
Well, now the jig is up...(and gone!)

LB, sometimes I get lucky while hunting out west & we hit an In & Out for supper. Guess it made an impression on me!

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 16, 2010, 12:11 PM:

Interesting. I have been lead to believe that NEW Yawkers think White Castle makes a decent burger? I know they can't drive, but what the heck, they're cute when they'er little. Then, they vote for Hillary and Schumer, but we have no room to talk with Babs Boxer and Finesquat. That's a draw.

So, how do you get out west? Fly? You must have a brother out here, or something like that? Just curious.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on July 16, 2010, 12:20 PM:

White Castle

AKA...Sliders, shouldn't even be put in the burger category. They're probably closer to a hot-dog in terms of questionable meat, just shaped like a shingle and laced with gut-rot.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 16, 2010, 12:44 PM:

It's Tommies Chilie Cheese Burgers that makes the ass fear the mouth. We used to call them the Edible enema's. [Eek!]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 16, 2010, 12:49 PM:

I have to admit that as a kid, in Minneesota, I used to think White Castle burgers were great. But, what did I know? And, with much of the east coast in a time warp, I just assume that NY digs those square burgers. They still put mud flaps on their four door sedans, don't they? With little red reflectors?

Okay, sorry. I won't pick on NYers any more. I had a friend, in the Army who was from NY, but up north, somewhere? He was polish and a normal guy.

Good hunting. LB (just kidding) [Smile]

edit: I never had that problem, but Tommy's makes a real good and sloppy chiliburger.

[ July 16, 2010, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 16, 2010, 01:06 PM:

Leonard,
Can't say I have any family relations out west, but I've been luck enough to tag along with some friends here & there, getting my feet wet along the way. IN & OUT was a pleasant addition to one of those trips. Utah & again in northern Nevada, IIRC...
As for White Castle, I admit to eating it but once in high school after night of post football game beer guzzling. I remember that one time distinctly, 'cause it came back out my pie hole not very long afterward. Contentedly, I'm now scarred for life from eating White Castle...

If I ever get make your acquaintence on a trip out west, hopefully we'd have time to talk burgers & such. After you quit making fun of my machine guns and re-tawded accent, of course...

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 16, 2010, 05:27 PM:

I will do that. Give me a jingle anytime, I'm in the book. ElBee

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 16, 2010, 05:35 PM:

In N Out is just a glorified big mac ain't it? Damned ole fried patty with LPT on it, I can't get the attraction?

Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on July 18, 2010, 06:58 AM:

Cdog911 and CrossJ enjoyed both you guys posts. I think this East versus West coyote debate will always be like discussing politics and the Bible, that everyone won’t see it the same.

I don’t believe “Bergmann’s rule applies to the coyotes we are seeing here in the east. Watching the post from around the country and reading the studies out there (whether you believe them or not) it is obvious to me longitude has way more bearing on coyote size than latitude.

Coyote hunting has just really beginning to catch on here in the Southeast I predict there will be some some pretty impressive weights being recorded in this part of the world soon.

I know our deer population exploded in the south in the early 80’s along with the coyote population. I wonder if the coyote population increases because deer populations increased? Or did the coyote population increase for the same reason deer populations increased?

I do know from watching both sized coyotes in my area that they hunt somewhat differently and are different in size. I feel it is somewhat of a different breed, as dogs have different breeds and act differently.

I wonder is it genetics or evolution that make them so adaptable to the east?

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 18, 2010, 07:42 AM:

quote:
I wonder is it genetics or evolution that make them so adaptable to the east?

CCP, my uneducated guess would be a little bit of both.

But I have to ask, what is the significance of your avatar over on PM?

Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on July 18, 2010, 09:19 AM:

quote:
But I have to ask, what is the significance of your avatar over on PM?

I first used it at FnF for a long time and changed it their recently.

To me it means

What Lies Behind Your Eyes is the window to your inner soul.

"He who discovers the door of the soul through the eyes also discovers the way to recognize truth and is no longer deceived and thus becomes free."

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 18, 2010, 09:53 AM:

That's profound.

Thanks for explaining...

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on July 18, 2010, 10:57 AM:

Why Richard, I believe you might be a philosopher. I am duly impressed after thinking you were a wild and crazy guy. [Razz]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2010, 11:10 AM:

...and scary!

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