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Author
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Topic: Eastern vs. Western Coyote
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted July 11, 2010 06:20 PM
From the 2010-2011 Pennsylvania Wildlife annual:
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=726571&mode=2
THE EASTERN COYOTE:
WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
Using modern genetic techniques two colleagues
from the New York State Museum and I explored
the genetics of eastern coyotes to try and provide a better answer as to what
it is and how it got here.
We obtained DNA samples from almost 700
coyotes from Ohio east to New Jersey, and north
into Maine and southern Quebec, including 106
Pennsylvania animals from 32 different counties.
The results were simple, but striking.
Approximately 20 percent of the eastern coyotes we tested had a type of DNA typical of wolves from eastern Canada and the Great Lakes region, while only one sample was doglike. This is strong evidence for a recent (last 100 years) hybridization with wolves. Since that initial cross-breeding, hybrid animals have continued to cross back with coyotes, wolves and other hybrids, producing what is known as a “hybrid swarm.”
In addition to analyzing genetic samples, we
measured 196 skulls from the Northeast and confirmed earlier work showing that eastern
coyote skulls were larger than western coyotes,
especially in being extrawide. In addition, eastern coyotes are sexually dimorphic, with males being larger than females. This dimorphism is also seen in wolf populations, but not in western coyotes. Larger skulls would help an animal hunt and eat deer. The increased
consumption of deer in the east is one of the
primary ecological differences from western
coyotes.
WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
From news and other accounts, we can trace the
routes of coyote movements into Pennsylvania
along two fronts: a slowmoving front coming east
from Indiana through Ohio, and a fast-moving
front coming south from Minnesota through
Ontario and New York. Coyotes moving
through Minnesota and Ontario encountered wolf
populations, and this seems to be where the
hybridization with wolves occurred. This influx of wolf genes, and ensuing rapid evolution into a
larger type of coyote, helped the northern front
move five times faster than the animals moving
through Ohio, which never encountered wolf
populations. The genetic pattern we observed in
Ohio suggests these animals faced no hybridization or major barriers to their movement.
Western Pennsylvania and western New York are
now a sort of contact zone between western coyotes spreading from Ohio and northeastern coyotes, or “coy-wolves” moving in from the north and east. How these types interact
is anyone’s guess. Last but not least —
what should we call this animal? Coydog seems
inaccurate, because we found so little evidence of dog genes in the population. Coywolf
might be more accurate, but may overstate the
amount of wolf influence. For now, I prefer ‘Eastern Coyote,’ because it implies the animal is still a coyote, but is different
than its western cousin: just as wily, no doubt, but even more adaptable, with a little help from the wolves.
The Eastern Coyote: Where did it come from? by Roland Kays, Curator of Mammals
New York State Museum
Adapted from
“Eastern Coyote,”
Pennsylvania Game
News, April 201
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Leonard
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posted July 11, 2010 06:54 PM
almost 100% bullshit
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 11, 2010 07:50 PM
And you know this because.....?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted July 11, 2010 09:29 PM
I guess it's because The conclusions and generalizations indicate sloppy research? Coywolf is bullshit, simple as that. I ain't buying it and they can't prove none of it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 12, 2010 04:09 AM
"In addition, Eastern Coyotes are sexually dimorphic, with males being larger than females. This dimorphism is also seen in wolf populations, BUT NOT IN WESTERN COYOTES."
Really???? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I didn't know that.
"Larger skulls would help an animal hunt and eat deer."
It didn't help the Dire Wolf. Or maybe it did. These Eastern Coyotes could actually be an undiscovered population of Dire Wolves that migrated south out of the vast Canadian wilderness. There is no proof at the present time, but the possibility is too important to ignore. This species needs full federal protection while further studies are done. Increased grant money needs to be made availible for this vital research to continue.
Now,............ Somebody prove me wrong. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 12, 2010 05:10 AM
A sample group of 700 is fairly good. Seeings as how this appears to be an inter-agency publication as opposed to a peer-reviewed journal, I wouldn't expect them to include all the various and sundry details of the manner in which the samples they tested for DNA were handled and processed. I can only suppose that if we were to approach their agency biologists and ascertain as to exactly how the samples were processed, their methodology would be consistent with how it should be done. To always dismiss everything science as being sloppy research with no more to go on than has been offered here is pretty silly.
Now, I do agree with Koko in that the one sentence he quoted caught my eye as well. Apparently, they haven't assessed too many Kansas pop'ns as there is a striking difference between adult males and females/ subadult males, size wise. But I will say that it's been my experience that much of the older literature does base distinctions between populations of differing subspecies by cranial measurements. I thought of this during the recent debate over whether subspecies truly exist and recalled that many times, distinctions between one versus another were made by looking at cranial measurements and specific ratios between two or more measurements, such as the ratio of length versus width measuring the distance of the jaw from first premolar to rearmost molar, and the width measured at the point of the first premolars.
I guess I'm just saying that to accept your premise that what the author is stating here is bullshit with no evidence to support this other than your historical arguments against global warming is less accurate than his hypotheses based upon DNA sampling of 700 different coyotes. Not all DNA testing is conspiratorial or just a means to additional funding through junk science. If you have the data to shoot down his working hypothesis, let's see it, but they offered more than just their personal opinions when they tested their sample group. If it's junk science, why?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 12, 2010 08:05 AM
Ok..............I may not be as extreme in my views on studies as El Bee can tend to be, but I do feel that any study is subject to debate, even from members of the unwashed, unlearned general public such as myself.
I can accept (until shown otherwise) that this study was well intentioned, well meaning and having no hidden adgenda. This doesn't mean that I don't question the conclusions. While I barely know enough about DNA to be able to spell it, I do know that DNA testing wasn't able to prove that O.J. was guilty, so I have a bit of a problem with DNA showing trace amounts of wolf genes. Maybe if I understood it better........
Mention was made of skulls & measurements. This was said to indicate larger animals back east. Nothing was mentioned about the way the skulls were collected or if the animals that provided the skulls were put into age groups.
Just for yucks & giggles, lets say that the skulls from back east were collected from road kill and the skulls from further west were donated by trappers. Without documenting the average ages, it could go unnoticed that the eastern samples contain more mature animals than the western ones. Already we have a problem; what the study in the example given actually proves is that full grown eastern coyotes are not 'road smart' and that mature western coyotes can tend to be 'trap wise'. No bad intentions on the part of the reasearchers, no gunman on the grassy knoll, just the wrong conclusion, due to nothing more that an overlooked variable.
Next week we can discuss this nonsense about the speed of light being constant.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 12, 2010 09:43 AM
Look, Lance. The very first thing that strikes me as odd, is the laughable "news and other accounts" that "document" where the coyotes came from, and how they got "back east" .....on two different fronts, even. Really? Was a trail cam employed?
I have been told that only idiots are impressed by numbers; like "almost 700". Who would waste taxpayer money doing DNA testing on "almost 700" coyotes?
Anytime they throw out the wolf hybred angle, I consider it my duty to be skeptical. Most of the colonization has been within living memory. For instance, when I was a boy in Minnesota, there were no coyotes. Now, a few hundred miles away, our dinky western coyotes crossbred with wolves in order to get the larger heads.
And, you damned right! I can claim bullshit just like GLOBAL WARMING. The "poetic license" these sloppy researchers take is unforgivable. I can never take this crap on blind faith. I don't like the question:
quote:
THE EASTERN COYOTE:
WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
They have tried to cover all the bases with conjecture and supposition while waving the phony DNA flag supported by news accounts. Initial cross breeding 100 years ago? Really? They forgot to include ALIEN SPACESHIPS. Came to them in a friggin' dream sequence, perhaps?
Look, Tom...er, I mean Lance. There is plenty to pick apart but I don't have the interest in doing it, right now. Suffice to say, I don't believe their lame report, which is my right, I believe?
And, another thing. I do not automatically discount every single scientific paper that I see. I try to focus on those that stink. Because. Sloppy research offends me greatly.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted July 12, 2010 11:55 AM
what no AMIGO. You got to try harded Cdog.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted July 12, 2010 12:09 PM
East:
West:
East: 
West:
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 12, 2010 01:06 PM
Yeah, AMIGO!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted July 12, 2010 01:16 PM
What an unscientific and vaguely written piece of garbage that one is.
Even though it's "adapted from the "Eastern Coyote" Pennsylvania Game News, April 2010, it's still filled with major flaws.
"We obtained DNA samples from almost 700
coyotes from Ohio east to New Jersey..."
- Was it 500, 600.....710 ??? Come on authors, saying "Almost" in this type of context puts them into the "clueless" gang right off.
"Approximately 20 percent of the eastern coyotes we tested had a type of DNA typical of wolves from
eastern Canada and the Great Lakes region, while
only one sample was doglike."
Doing some quick math on their fuzzy numbers:
Approximately 20% of Almost 700 = About 140 animals subtract the one dog model = About 139
"This is strong evidence for a recent (last
100 years) hybridization with wolves."
- About 139 divided by Almost 700 multiplied by 100% is Approximately 19.9%.
Strong evidence is based on less than 1/5th of the data set having a specified gene? I'd call it weak evidence at best.
"Since that initial cross-breeding, hybrid animals have continued to cross back
with coyotes, wolves and other hybrids, producing
what is known as a “hybrid swarm.”
-I'd say that since they can't get the original data on where or what the genes initially came from other than a vague "type of DNA" claim, this cross back swarming theory is just that..a theory. If they used this current, fuzzy data and continued to do some real research and published the data 20, 30, 50 years down the road with hard numbers, we'd have a baseline to work from.
WHERE DID IT COME
FROM?
From news and other accounts
- Gotta believe everything the news and "other accounts" tells you.
"Coyotes moving through Minnesota and Ontario encountered wolf populations, and this seems to be where the hybridization with wolves occurred."
-I'm guessing then that Alaska should start seeing if not already, a "hybrid" Coyote/Wolf mix in the near future. And I've always been told that the local wolves kill those coyotes.
"This influx of wolf genes, and ensuing rapid evolution into a larger type of coyote, helped the northern front move five times faster than the animals moving through Ohio, which never encountered wolf populations."
-I didn't realize that by cross breeding, a species has evolved. So a Horse and Donkey that breeds, creates an "evolved" Mule?
Great read, might as well shut down the entire east coast to any type of canine hunting until further studies can be completed and analyzed.
[ July 12, 2010, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 12, 2010 01:16 PM
"Look, Tom...er, I mean Lance."
How the hell did I get drug into this?
Amigo out.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted July 12, 2010 01:35 PM
I have to agree with TW. I worked with DNA markers in cattle years ago. 20% is not far out of the realm of false conclusions found when all variables are known. Also, if someone sampled the population in different directions( lets say west of the great lake region), would the results be similar? I would think there would be some blending of gene markers along boundries. But, the biggest question this study raises is....Who gives a shit???
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted July 12, 2010 01:52 PM
I'm with you on CrossJ, who cares? If they dig deep enough into the DNA, they'll probably find that they all came from the elusive Sabre Toothed Chupacabra. Waste of money and time to prove that a canine has wolf genes in them if you ask me.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted July 12, 2010 02:28 PM
After b.s.ing about this topic several times, I've come to the conclusion that our coyotes are just BIGGER for the same reasons a Canadian whitetail is BIGGER than a Coues deer...
Google "Bergmann's Rule". It explains body size in relation to surviving in colder climates. Also, a larger body size allows our coyotes to prey on whitetail deer more efficiently, as does a learned 'pack oriented' modus operandi...
Wolves they ain't, they just act more like wolves than western coyotes do.
edited: 'cause the link I pasted, broke. Google is your friend.
[ July 12, 2010, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted July 12, 2010 03:06 PM
KnockemDown,
That's a good theory, but it suggests that Alaska would have some of the biggest Coyote's in the country, since we're the furthest north and have the coldest weather. Our coyote's however are not exceptionally large by any stretch, with most of them in the 22-30lb range.
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/pubs/notebook/furbear/coyote.php
Trappers hate the coyote's up here and several trappers I know have commented about the increase in numbers north of the Yukon River in the past 8 years.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 12, 2010 03:24 PM
Tundra;
Bergmann's Rule seems to be pretty much accepted, but at some point the supply of quality food (protein) seems like it would have to be a factor. As I remember, there is a pretty decent food base in the eastern states. Possibly more than in Alaska?? That might 'splain a few things.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted July 12, 2010 03:51 PM
quote:
How the hell did I get drug into this?
I was wondering that myself.
Perhaps Leonard meant a different Tom?
Edit: Disregard.
[ July 12, 2010, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted July 12, 2010 04:42 PM
"just as wily, no doubt, but even more adaptable, with a little help from the wolves."
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Now that be funny RAT there. If wolves are just as wiley as coyotes, and even more adaptable, I wonder why the hunters and trappers nearly wiped out the wolves, and the coyote population continued to climb?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 12, 2010 05:08 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How the hell did I get drug into this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I was wondering that myself.
Perhaps Leonard meant a different Tom?"
I'm sure he did. I can't imagine him thinking of me while using that tone.
He probably meant nasa or maybe even the pony tail wearing Tom but I couldn't resist.
As for the topic? I have no freakin clue.
[ July 12, 2010, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted July 12, 2010 05:15 PM
Yes I just sent you an email on it.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted July 12, 2010 05:16 PM
Tundra/Koko,
Might could be that the presence of REAL wolves in AK feasting on ungulates has kept the coyote limited to smaller prey...
It would only make sense then that a smaller coyote would survive more better-er while occupying that predatory role...
Given the fact that we don't have REAL wolves here in the east, it would seem that the coyotes are simply 'growing' into the predatory niche that wolves once occupied. With the premise behind Bergmann's Rule helping along the way...
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted July 12, 2010 05:17 PM
koko,
I'd agree that Bergmann's is a highly acceptable ecological rule, but there is plenty of high protein food up here for predators: (Moose, Caribou, Hares..etc). I've heard it said before and have also seen in my hunting travels that wolves keep our coyotes in check and out of the "back-country". Most of the coyotes that people hear, see, and trap are closer to the highways and road systems in Alaska. Wolves on the other hand, tend to stay away from the civilized world and run huge circuits that can take from 2-3 weeks to complete depending on food sources along their travels. That still doesn't answer the question of why ours don't follow Bergmann's Rule though. Maybe they're like the dog mushers who prefer to use the smaller, more efficient Huskies over the Malamutes for running the Iditarod and Yukon Quest. I guess Alaska just got a bad dose of mystery DNA with their coyotes.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 12, 2010 05:40 PM
That's something else that I don't understand all that I know about; It's always been a given that coyotes are nothing but chew toys for wolves. Now all of the sudden we get to an area where there are no wolves, but little wolf / coyote love pups taking over. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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