This is topic Dens in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001237
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2010, 01:45 PM:
This post is directed at either Cal or Randy, but anyone can contribute, of course.
Last week, I was called to assist on a supposed coyote problem west of town in the sandhills of central Kansas (not as storied and legendary as the Nebraska sandhills, but sandy, nonetheless). Turns out that what the reporting party witnessed was a pair of dirty white angus hybrid calves playing with their typical all black angus buddy in the tallgrass and he mistook what he saw as two coyotes chasing the black calf.
Anyway, while working the area, we came upon a freshly cleared coyote den on the NE facing side of a ridgeline. To the SW of this hole was a second hole, about a hundred yards further along the same ridgeline, that, too, had been cleaned out that same day. We know that because we'd had rain showers all morning, off and on, and both of these had freshly dug dirt thrown from the openings with several sets of adult tracks going in and out. No, I did not huff the hole, and no, I did not count the number going in compared to the number coming out to see if their might be someone home. What I also did not see was any indication that the puppies were there, i.e., no small tracks, no bones or animals parts, no chewed sticks, nothing but a few tracks. I could only conclude that the female had tweaked these two holes in preparation for possibly moving the puppies.
Since this area is usually covered in head-high tall grasses and standing crops, seeing an active den hole is a rarity and one you generally simply stumble upon while doing something else. I found these because this pasture had been burned this Spring and the grass is presently barely six inches tall, brilliant green, and these two freshly dug mounds of red sand stand out like the proverbial turd in the punch bowl. I would like to locate the actual den this group is using to get some pics and am curious about a few things.
First, is there any hard and fast rules about how closely den holes are located, relative to one another?
How far will the bitch move the pups, and how far is too far?
Both sites are along the top of the ridgeline well above any possible flooding concerns. The area is a mixture of pastureland (burned and regreening), unburned grazed pasture to the north, thick pockets of sandplums and cottonwoods, stock ponds and quarter-section timbers with most tracts being 60-160 acres in size, all with either flat or gently undulating hills. In this pasture, the ridgeline where these dens are found is a small collections of chops sloping down to a series of stock ponds.
If it helps any, here's an aerial image of the area. The two red dots are the dens I know of. The north south road to the west of them is at a distance of about 150-175 yards.
[ May 29, 2010, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2010, 01:47 PM:
The pic didn't come through large enough to see much, but the dens are east of the road, due east of the pivot on the irrigation circle.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 29, 2010, 04:52 PM:
Most likely clean outs to move the pups to yes. If she isn't pressured into moving them and just moving them on her own due to fleas ect then there is a good chance that the active den is close. Two to three weeks you will have a good chance if you spend some time at night around there you should be able to hear the pups howl. If its a good sandy area like you say you should be able to start on a perimeter and track the female in. Look for tracks that cross trails coming and going is always nice. Tracks leading down a cow trail can get you going but when you run into tracks crossing the trails or dropping into the drainage ect you are getting hot. They will a lot of the time be a straight line to the den. There should be a fairly well polished knob in front of the hole that is active.
Hope this helps.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 29, 2010, 05:12 PM:
I'm no wiz kid on dens, but it seems that a trail camera might be in order.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 29, 2010, 07:05 PM:
Just spitballing, but could the coyote been hunting something that had taken up residence in the holes/dens?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 29, 2010, 08:40 PM:
Badger dens.. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 30, 2010, 06:59 AM:
Yes, Tim. At one time. But, then again, most coyote dens were badger dens at one time or another.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2010, 07:45 AM:
Cowboy up. You just gotta get in there and huff it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 30, 2010, 08:46 AM:
LOL Sniff sniff
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on May 30, 2010, 04:56 PM:
Lance, lots of shades of gray in a deal you ask for a black and white answer.
All of the events or lack of events will be based on what is available and how close. These things vary when talking remote areas to areas with a lot of human interaction.
The first den should have a water source within a reasonable distance so the pups once weened can walk to water and scurry back to the hole. Water is the key the first let's say 8 weeks. Usually, you see them punch in dens in some of the most unusual places.
When the pups get more mobile the shade cover etc will dictate the location of a hole if any is being used at all. They will roam from location to location within a territory.
The original hole now should show a matting of the grass from the pups lounging by the hole etc. Here is one from this a.m.
This is a view from the second hole about 50 yards above the hole in the previous picture.
They will move pups from my experiences a mile or more usually much less than that but it usually is based on why and what is available according to needs etc. Country, terrain, water, human activity, etc. and why they are moving. On their own or because they got spooked.
LB heres my HUFFER he's never wrong!! He's got to earn his keep!!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 30, 2010, 06:00 PM:
Thanks, Randy. Good information. No tamped down grass or packed down soil around the hole. Yet. Nor, any good trails.
On an unrelated note, but this topic got me to thinking... Did anyone else see where Barry Osama told the press corps that his young daughter boldly and nosily asked him if he'd plugged the ho yet? Darn kids. Kinda private thing to asking about, if you ask me, but that bunch is a little funny, ya know.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2010, 06:50 PM:
Is it just me, or is his ho just plain ugly? She's no Alica Keys, that's for sure. Fashion trend setter my ass.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2010, 06:52 PM:
Randy, I see hawk feathers behind your huffer and it looks like he has more down the hole?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on May 30, 2010, 07:06 PM:
LB, that be a hen pheasant wing. That country is crawling with them. Not to tough to find food for the pups there. This guy was a rotational grazer with limited fencing and 1200 yearlings in tight pastures and some coyotes in the middle of the whole deal blowing them thru fences etc.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 30, 2010, 07:45 PM:
No, Leonard;
It's not that his ho is ugly. It's that his ho is angry. She smiles with her mouth but not with her eyes. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Fashion?? Give me a cowgirl wearing jeans & a t-shirt that has an easy laugh any day. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2010, 11:01 PM:
quote:
She smiles with her mouth but not with her eyes.
That's very observant, koko. Yeah, she's an angry bitch.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2010, 06:27 AM:
teeth like a piranha don't help...
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2010, 11:09 AM:
Randy et al., this is the den we've been watching. The other looks exactly like it. No discernable trails to and from. No trampled grass. Just the loose dirt brought out front that you can see.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2010, 11:15 AM:
I see similiar and have always concluded them to be, "last years" den. Whether they (eventually) get reused or not, can't say?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 31, 2010, 11:18 AM:
Hey, if the economy dont pick up, I could just move in there? A little small, but cozy.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2010, 12:40 PM:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall seeing, reading and hearing in a number of places from reputable sources that, if left undisturbed and not destroyed, a pair will use dens from one year to the next, repeatedly. True?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2010, 01:14 PM:
Awaiting the experts....I think that is a true thing, but not a sure thing.
I'm pretty sure they tend to take over existing burrows but not necessarily. It could be a 50/50 proposition whether they reuse last years site or go with something new? To them.
That's another interesting question. Would any stray bitch clean out an existing den site, or is it invariably the former tennant that uses it next year?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2010, 02:18 PM:
You're correct, Elbee, in saying that nothing is absolute with coyotes. Mia culpa. Also, I think it's probably correct to say that existing dens are first come-first serve. I bet this is an issue that's triggered more than one border war in the coyote world.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2010, 02:25 PM:
Not an expert but my coyotes will use the same den from year to year. If the breeding female is killed off one of the previous female pups will take it over. if by chance the whole family group is killed then it may take some time for another to move in and then its a 50/50 chance they may use the same den..
One of the reasons why I still see coyotes with mange in certain areas is from useing the same infected den, you remove the whole famaly and a new comer moves in and sets up shop useing another hole and the mange is cleared up for a time..
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on May 31, 2010, 03:45 PM:
Yep, they will use the same hole if left alone on ocassion. The features in that area made it a good place to den, the water source is the key. The more readily the water the less likely they will repeat using the same hole. It doesn't take much of a source either. It will be for the most part a source that has been there for awhile and not just from a recent dea
No doubt if need be they could find a spot to dig their own. It's just easier to find something to remodel than build.
It doesn't take much of a dig etc. for them to be happy with a den hole. May be only 3-4 foot in about 2 foot below the surface. Some you can spade out in short order and others are a tough deal, need a backhoe.
Lance it looks like possibly an old one if it is close to water?? Oval entrance looks coyotee the vegetation at the entrance makes it look vacant. They do check about every hole they find for food etc. It would make an excellent trap location.
Bad news the Huffer found a Porky today!! Anyone know the place in nature for them bastards. God I hate them!! Good thing I was close or he would have been a mess, only got about 30-40 on the outside before I could get him off it. It was about to get ugly.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2010, 04:43 PM:
Yeah, Randy. They evolved to teach coyote pups why you don't dig into badger holes. That's why you don't see coyotes screwing with badgers. They think they're bald porkies. The porcupines certainly appreciate what the badgers have done for them. Just goes to show you... if you're gonna screw with a big hole, make sure you have lotsa prick(s).
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2010, 05:03 PM:
I saw a bunch of them running the ice this winter heading south to the otherside of the river. I would of taken a few out for you but they where past 300 yds and thats not considered sporting....
[ May 31, 2010, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2010, 09:32 PM:
Quite a few years ago, I shot what I thought was a pair of badgers at extended range. It was very frosty, that morning lots of sparkly stuff, all I can think of for the mistaken ID. What a disappointment after a long walk to find two dead porcupines. Ruined my whole day!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 02, 2010, 07:11 AM:
Lack of the dirt being "polished", vegatation like randy said i would say it was last years but don't rule out that she is checking for a spot to move the pups too.
They "will" use the same den in some instances but more importantly they will use the same drainage or a "denning pocket" year after year. Getting to know your denning pockets is a win win situation whether in control work or recreational caller.
We end up with them in rock piles and sink holes out here quite a bit. Entrances tend to be not quite so pronounced in those situiations due to not having to remove so much soil. Just a well packed down entrance with hair around the entrance. Depth is everything from being able to reach the pups with you arms to needing a backhoe and a 25 ft deep hole.
Great post Randy i hate porkies also.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on June 02, 2010, 03:46 PM:
I agree with Randy and his post. Looks like an old hole and not active. Most will be very close to water and water means different things depends on the weather. As long as it holds water for awhile doesn't have to be great.
Notice the well worn trail and matted grass. Over that hill 3/4 of a mile are sheep.
[ June 02, 2010, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 03, 2010, 11:26 AM:
Hi Randy. That is a cool picture of your Huffer. What breed is he? Hope his meeting with the Porky wasn't too painful for him. Ouch.
The coyotes around here seem to have 4 or 5 digouts within 300 to 400 yds of the whelping den. They must only keep the pups there until the fleas start getting bad and then move them again. We have actually seen this happening just one time over the years, leading me to believe they probably do most of that work at night. The digouts don't indicate anywhere near as much activity as the whelping den.
Good looking country in those pictures.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on June 03, 2010, 07:16 PM:
Al, he's a Mtn. Cur out of Jack Alexanders Curs in Hot Springs SD. Jack is a very good houndsman and turns out some great pups. Proud to say he is a coworker and a good friend. Helluva rifle marksman also!
Could have been worse quill wise had he found the porky farther out away from me. All the quills came from one wack. Lucky it was a small porky.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 03, 2010, 08:36 PM:
I have never seen a live porky but man that has got to hurt.
Good looking dog.
Edit to add: Randy does he never learn not to engage a porky?
I had a Mouintain Cur that was a fine squirrel dog. Could break him off anything but armadillos. If there was one in the woods he was gonna chase it to a hole then dig it out. I tried ever technique I could come up with to get him to leave them alone, short of a shock collar.
[ June 03, 2010, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 03, 2010, 10:26 PM:
Medium to large sized porcupine quills are worth around $7.99 per hundred... looks like dog dude has about $2.50 worth in his mug?
The quills are used to make beads.
The longer guard hairs (6+ inches) also have value. They are used to make "roaches" and "brims", both, types of head dresses worn by native Americans.
There was a thread on the subject, running on Trapperman, about a week ago.
These two bundles (each approx. 8" in length) are going for $45.00. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
The longer (white) hairs from whitetail deer tails are also used, because they can be dyed bright colors.
Beyond the monetary considerations, and hopefully without opening a huge philoshophical debate, I'll say, I think we should try to supply the needs of these markets whenever possible.
Krusty 
Edit to repair hyperlink.
[ June 03, 2010, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 04, 2010, 05:44 AM:
Randy,
That photo of your dog with porky quills in his face brought back some memories. When I was a kid, we had to hold the dog down and pull those quills out with pliers. A lot of the quills were pulled out from inside the dog's mouth. Not a fun thing to watch. Not fun at all.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 04, 2010, 07:05 AM:
Randy, that picture shows how tough he is. I know he is a good hunting companion. Hope he stays away from those rascals.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 04, 2010, 10:52 PM:
Ouch i feel for him but just part of the line of duty. Good Looking dog Randy I like those Brindles!
Ragn i wouldn't take my dogs out without shock collars for just those kind of situations. Your dogs find a porky and get going and the coyotes show up and they don't see them smell them or engage at all due to the porky. A good shock collar you can solve those probelms checking snare, trap and M-44 lines before you get into denning season. I have a tougher time breaking young dogs of running "non-target" even with shock collars then ones that don't run or hole up.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on June 05, 2010, 08:16 AM:
If you cut the ends off of them they seem to pull out easier to. Like they are air filled and swell a little more without cutting the ends first.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on June 06, 2010, 08:56 AM:
Ragn, no I doubt he will ever run by a porky without something happening.
A guy just has to stay away from certain spots and keep track of the dog etc. Call to the woody draws instead of getting right down in them. Stay where a guy can see good but our vegetation is getting so tall it's tough. All the rain we have gotten has the grass coyote high already.
He will be 4 in Nov. and this was his first porky ordeal. Keeping him from hunting for them and not doing what he is suppose to be doing is the goal.
It's just part of the deal, and one of the hazards. Snakes are another!
We ask a lot of these dogs. You want to see a panic, lose your best dog this time year in this profession. Always good to have 2-3 of them in the mix.
Maybe Cal has a porky free remedy? I'm not aware of one. Ever smell one?? Horrible BO smell, you won't forget it!
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 06, 2010, 09:26 AM:
I don't have a denning dog but I have had bird dogs and coon hounds that I trained myself. The bird dogs were pretty easey to train but the coon-hounds canbe a little hard headed..
To train my dogs from running unwanted animals I would teach them "Don't touch" method which is pretty simple to teach...
You need a Electric collar which most should already have and you need some chunks of fresh meat like beef or chicken..
At first start with the dog on a leash, take a chunk of fresh meat and toss on the ground in front of the dog and when he goes after it say the command "don't touch" and if it still goes after the meat then give the leash a sharp tugg or give it a good shot of juice with the E-collar. ( only shock dog when it is in the act of doing wrong)
Do this about 15 minutes each day and the dog will catch on, some may take a little longer but they will catch on..
Now that they know what the command of "don't touch" means then move on to a certain animal you don't want them chaseing or fighting with.
Say you want to break them of porky's then you will need a dead one for the training. Place the porky out of site of the dog and then walk into area were dead porky is with the dog, if the dog bolts for the porky say 'don't touch" and if dog continues then push the button on the E-collar. The more stubburn the dog is the higher the volts..
Randy I may be in Pierre in July and if you want help just say the word, it only takes 15 minutes or so to get them started.. Youre dog was real lucky a lady friend of mine had her dog tangle with a porky and got the quills inside the mouth and also lost a eye..Later
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 06, 2010, 08:24 PM:
ND-I don't hunt with the collar, just use it for training. As you can imagine, down here they are gonna get wet. I mean really wet. The collar will be under water at some point in the hunt. There is something about the movement of an diller that dogs just can't resist. At least none of mine can. My house/yard dog goes nuts over a diller.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 06, 2010, 08:43 PM:
For most of ten years, I hunted coons with an old retired Air Force non-comm who was a breeder and competition hunter, too. I didn't compete my dogs, but I knew the importance of a clean dog that ran no trash. My English male, Cody, was like Randy's dog about armadillos. It didn't matter how good the night was, he had to munch a skunk.
My buddy set me up with breaking scent (not skunk musk) and told me how to use it. At his direction, I took a large prescription bottle and drilled it full of holes, filled it with cotton and saturated it with that scent, wired the cap shut and wired it to the D-ring on the dog's collar. Everyday, I recharged that bottle and cotton.
At the same time, I took two tube socks. Put a rock in the bottom of one, and a rolled up old sock in the other. Randomly, I would pick one or the other, with the one with the rock being sprayed down with the breaking scent, and the other one left clean. I'd pick one and hold it up to Cody., If his tail wagged or he alerted on it in any way with any type of interest, he'd get whacked over the head and yelled at. If he didn't alert, or backed off, he got some lovin'.
After about three or four days, that dog would not eat. The smell of breaking scent caused him to start dry heaving, he hated it that much, and he never munched a skunk again.
The same guy had quite a set up for breaking any of his Walker hounds from deer. The dog was secured in a cage, about four feet long and three feet square, made completely of expanded metal mesh. The cage was then suspended off the ground with a pully'd cable system like those old innercity clotheslines running through it. A deer hock gland was then attached to the clothesline. The hock gland had a copper wire hooked to it that was hooked to one side of a fence charger. The other side of the wire was hooked to the mesh of the cage. The hock was wheeled into the cage at random intervals and if the dog so much as tried to sniff it, ZAP. Not too many dogs were so strongheaded that they didn't learn what and what not to do. Some were. I had a yearling English male that we swore up and down, if a dog could be retarded, Bear was. I sold him back to the breeder and he ended up being one of the finest hounds in SE Missouri for the next 7 or 8 years. Some dogs come along later than others.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 07, 2010, 05:30 AM:
Ragn- Did you have problems with the collars getting wet? They should be able to take them in the water if you have a quality collar like Tri-tronics. I know countless guys that have them on their labs and chesapeaks for retrieving ducks and geese in the water.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 07, 2010, 10:20 AM:
You have a point ND. This feeble Coon ass mind didn't even think about Duck dogs.
I just naturally figured it was not a good thing and never tried it on him hunting. He is gone now and sorely missed. Here is a few shots of him when he wasn't after a dilla.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 07, 2010, 03:45 PM:
Man, what a great looking dog. I know you had some great times with him.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 07, 2010, 04:17 PM:
Thats a sharp dog looks like he was a good one too boot!. Should be no problem getting your training collars wet with future dogs.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 07, 2010, 09:04 PM:
Man that's a big-ass 'coon dawg!
They just don't last long enough, do they. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
While most shock good quality collars can handle wet environments, keep in mind that water lowers electrical resistance... use lower settings than you normally would.
Krusty
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0