This is topic how old in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001213
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 22, 2010, 08:14 PM:
How old do you think this coyote is?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2010, 08:18 PM:
Wow! Ten, maybe? Never seen anything like it?
Anybody ever stumble on to a coyote dead of natural causes? Or do they all run in front of a Semi on the Interstate?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on February 22, 2010, 08:22 PM:
Wow! Old enough to know better.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 22, 2010, 08:50 PM:
What was his over all condition (minus the leaks you put in him.lol)
Edit: LOL LB. Whats with the new title?
[ February 22, 2010, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2010, 11:13 PM:
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 28, 2010, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2010, 11:34 PM:
New title? Somebody has a hot temper....I hear?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on February 23, 2010, 05:52 AM:
LOL, On occasion.
Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on February 23, 2010, 06:20 AM:
Dang, it would be interesting to know just how old that bugger is. I have a little side business and beetle clean skulls. I see countless skulls each year and I've never had one come in that looked as old as this coyote you posted.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 23, 2010, 06:50 AM:
G - this old guy was pretty beat up looking around the head and ears and had a touch of mange.
He could still travel good as I first seen him at around 600 yards.
With no more teeth than he had, I figure his fighting days were just about over. He was running by solo best I could tell.
Tim - Tell me more about tooth rings? It is the same as tree rings?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2010, 09:10 AM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on February 23, 2010, 10:59 AM:
Did Huber tell you that!?!?
In certain areas, at certain times of the year, under most conditions, I generally believe most of what Scott has to say about coyotes. He's a pretty fart smeller.
I don't buy the ol' 'count the fang rings' to determine age. I've never even heard of it and find it to be rather BALONEY flavored!
You didn't actually accuse Scott of saying such a thing but that you tried it on skulls he gave you. Otherwise he might of been pulling your leg.
How is it supposed to work? Don't tell me one ring for every year of age?!?!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 23, 2010, 11:30 AM:
Danny, it does work that way. It is called cementum annuli and one layer per year is added. Good luck sawing the tooth and counting rings yourself. Very hard to see even after staining. Research biologists will pull a carnasial rather than a "fang" and send it into a lab in Michigan (I think that's where it is)to age their subjects.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2010, 11:46 AM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on February 23, 2010, 11:46 AM:
But Chig, trees get bigger with growth rings, some of the guys here must really have some big 'ol honkin' teeth by now!?!?
Seriously though, You are describing a super duper fine layer of some sort of natural coating that covers the tooth - aren't you? There are no such thing as rings within the tooth as stated, right? They would get bigger. What happens between the layers of cementum annuli that differentiates it from the previous layer? And what about the ol' wearumoffum cementum that occurs annuli also?
P.S. The questions are legit. I'm not challenging anything because I "don't know much biology". And the Professor does. RichHiggins is another one of those fart smellers I generally believe and learn from, at certain times of the year, when the conditions are right in my area.
[ February 23, 2010, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2010, 02:52 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on February 23, 2010, 03:56 PM:
Okay, it's now official..."Fang" ranks right up there with "yote" now. At least call it a tooth, would ya Tim? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on February 23, 2010, 04:22 PM:
I'm gonna be real curious as to the age of that coyote, and also what the do it yourself rings show. I wish we had a lab to confirm or correct the home count method.
I killed an ancient coyote with a huge body years ago in the Canadian Rockies with similar teeth, almost all gone and what was left worn to the gums. His fangs (eye teeth?) were nubbins. It was during Fall elk season and though his body was huge he was skinny with no body fat. He'd have had a hard time gripping any prey and could only gum it as his rear teeth were all gone.
When I shipped him he was rated XXL or whatever they graded the biggest ones. I haven't sold fur in a long time.
Edited to PCatize the word fang!
[ February 23, 2010, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on February 23, 2010, 05:53 PM:
Where did you go Rich? I believe you, just teach me a little. I think other inquiry minds want to know also. Aaaaah, I thin I just figured it out...you are preparing a big ol' hairy explanation to teach us, Que No Profesor?
[ February 23, 2010, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 23, 2010, 06:11 PM:
If you've ever killed a deer and had to submit a central incisor, it was for the purpose of using cementum annuli to determine their age, and subsequently, the age structure of the harvest in hopes that doing so gave something of an idea of the age structure of the overall population. Yes, Danny, it is legit. These teeth are sectioned using a very tiny laser and the micro-thin sections are viewed through a microscope in order to count the annuli. Not saying he cannot do it, but Tim looks to have been rode hard a time or two and as deaf as he is, I seriously doubt that his eyes are sufficient enough to substitute for a binocular microscope. Then again, he may surprise me...
Edited to add this link to show just how non-obvious the rings are, even when performed correctly.
http://www.matsonslab.com/html/Services/HunterServices/Hunters.htm
[ February 23, 2010, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2010, 07:02 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by predatorhunter (Member # 3559) on February 23, 2010, 08:44 PM:
I had never heard of this tooth ring thing, I always wondered how they aged deer when you sent in the jaw bone. That's pretty cool. Of course he could just be a young coyote adicted to meth!
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on February 23, 2010, 09:03 PM:
Very cool indeed. And interesting too.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on February 28, 2010, 06:04 AM:
KJ only thing for certain, he ain't gettin any older. Nice job!
Here a 3-4 year old is well, old!!
Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on February 28, 2010, 07:09 AM:
Good job Tim, Fish and Game used to do that on the Black Bear I would get.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2010, 12:03 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 28, 2010, 12:52 PM:
Getting them to do this test pro bono is unlikely as it is costly and most DNR's don't have the funds to spend just because some guys wants to know how old a coyote is. Good luck wit that.
As to diet and tooth wear, in college when they presented to us the tooth wear charts for whitetail deer, they told us that diet and the region where the deer was killed was irrelevant. I cried foul then thinking that commen sense would tell us that a deer in the desert where plants and forage would contain hig levels of silica and other abrasives would wear teeth much faster than forage from an area where the deer are eating succulent green forage all, year round. In looking up a picture for this thread, I found some sites where the old charts were debunked for this very reason.
On deer and other ungulates, they usually use the front incisor and take a V-shaped wedge out of the center of the tooth, looking at it from the front, to collect a cross section that shows the entire profile of the tooh from the enamel down to the pulp.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2010, 02:07 PM:
[
[ March 28, 2010, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0