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Author
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Topic: Legal Question
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 19, 2010 07:29 AM
I got a legal question. I think one of them Okies is a lawyer? Even though law and Okie dont seem to go together in a sentence very well?
Anyways, Ive been told a gamewarden can come on my land anytime to look for game violations without a warrant. Including checking my freezer. Ok, Im good with that.
Heres my HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION. Lets say the warden is sneakin in from the backside of my place so he dont alert me that hes comin, I dont know why, I guess maybe he thinks we might throw a fast bbq and eat up evidence? Anyway, lets say he finds a little shack with a meth lab and a pot garden all around it. Can he legally bust me for that? He wasnt lookin for that, or so he says.
Like I said, this is just hypocondriac, just curious if he would be oversteppin his boundries.... Cause I dont do meth or pot and sure dont make em...
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted February 19, 2010 08:36 AM
lol. I think he can.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 19, 2010 08:47 AM
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 28, 2010, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2010 09:25 AM
Andy,
I think you are safe...
It is my understanding in most states, that a game warden can not arrest you for non-game code violations. He could and certainly would give notice to the proper state or DEA office and you would be in jail very quickly! Hypothetically speaking and all that! LOL It would also hold up in court as he has the right to be there looking.
Problem for folks with larger tracks of land is when someone trespasses and sets up a lab or plants seeds on your property. You had better be the one to make the call to the local LEO if you find something like that...
Nikonut
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted February 19, 2010 10:05 AM
Ive always been told the warden's in Kansas have more authority than a state trooper but I don't know if that is true or not.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2010 10:41 AM
I believe a game warden can, "Hold" you until the proper authority arrives in most cases as well...
The more authority part comes from the ability to do searches without a warrant at anytime and anyplace without predisposed cause or confirmed evidence. Also being able to enter any public or private property at any time, as necessary, to carry out their work.
This still doesn't give them the absolute ability to go just anywhere and at any time to search for something unless it specifically pertains to hunting or game violations.
If this wasn't the case, they would be used more often for heinous searches and obvious violations of our constitutional freedom of unwarranted search and seizures.
I don't see that's ever going to happen... the public outcry would finally be too great! ...but you never know. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Nikonut
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted February 19, 2010 10:55 AM
The law can be so super stupid.
I was going hunting with a friend one time and before I went I threw 6 prescription pills in my pocket (2 every six hours). My hunting partner wanted me to take the whole bottle; thought I might-could get arrested for not having the pills in a prescription bottle with a label!?!?
I'm pretty sure he was right!
P.S. Did I tell this story once already - seems familiar?
P.S.S. I just saw my first full episode of DOG. Dang Andy - you could-should be rich already man! You snooze you looze eh? ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 19, 2010 11:18 AM
Loco, I believe that someone was me that told you that. And yes, I have bonded many people over the years that have prescription pain meds and stick a couple in their pocket for the day and get arrested. Posession of Controlled Substance. Felony. I have seen it go both ways in court. I have seen them bring the bottle in with doctors records and a good attorney and get it dropped to a misdemeanor. (Never drop charges. That would mean that they would have to admit they did something wrong and would get no revenue. Besides, most are happy with the misdemeanor when the prosecution says well, if you dont want to plead to that, then lets go to a jury trial on a felony and roll the dice.... Who wants to do that?) I have also seen the prosecution not back down. Offer 5 yrs probation and a big fine. Either that or a jury trial, your choice. All of this after paying big bucks, usually 10k or more, to an attorney, 2-10k to a bondsman and if you end up pleading or being convicted of a felony, no more guns for you, forever.
So, I tell everyone, if you have the prescription, why take the chance. Its not hard to just carry the damn bottle with you and much cheaper. My wife is the worlds worst. She gets migraine headaches sometimes and one of the things they give her is valium. She will put two valium and 2 800 mg Ibuprophen in a bottle in her purse. I keep telling her I will end up bonding her someday.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Stiknstringbow
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3571
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posted February 19, 2010 11:40 AM
I have been told that here in Washington State that a WDFW (Game Warden) Officer is a division of the Washington State Patrol, and they can bust you for just about everything....
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The mountains are calling and I must go."
- John Muir
"I go to nature to be soothed and healed, and to have my senses put in order."
- John Burroughs
Posts: 35 | From: Chehalis | Registered: Feb 2010
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted February 19, 2010 12:01 PM
Yeah I knew it was you Andy. But like I said...The law can be so super stupid!!!
On every other street corner it seems businesses are closing down left and right these days. However, there is a new phenomenon going on. On every other corner a new Medicinal Marijuana shop is opening up. They are every where here in Englewood and Denver - haven't seen any in Littleton yet but probably are.
And my guns can be taken away because I have a couple pills for back pain in my pocket!?!?
P.S. I was just gonna apologize for the hi-jack but the thread starter is Andy anyway.
P.S.S. Calling all H.M. pamp - please help me - I'm trying to think up a new nick-name for Andy - Heck if Dog can be Dog - Andy needs to be something like 'GRIZZ'
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brad Norman
Okie Dokie
Member # 234
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posted February 19, 2010 02:27 PM
Search and Seizure under the Fourth Amendment is pretty complicated. However, a game warden needs probable cause to arrest and probable cause to search. Forget all the BS surrounding the definition of probable cause. It really boils down to simply "fair probability".
To detain someone, the game warden needs "reasonable suspicion". Courts define this as "much less demanding than probable cause and considerably less than preponderance."
Most people think that if a law enforcment officer has a search warrant for an illegal activity and finds other illegal activity while conducting that search, that illegal activity will be excluded. Courts hold otherwise.
If the game warden has a reason to be on your property and sees your meth lab and marijuana you're busted. My advice to you would be burn it all now, but call me before the marijuana patch is burned. It could be a good time!
DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A CRIMINAL ATTORNEY
Posts: 298 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 19, 2010 03:36 PM
Party at my place!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted February 19, 2010 04:21 PM
Brad is correct for Wyoming also. But "probable cause" is a very loose definition. I have had the game and fish search a vehicle once with no probable cause that I could see, but they did it anyway. They didn't find anything, but they looked even after I told them no.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2010 06:29 PM
The real deal is just be legal and stay out of trouble's way and you will likely do just fine.
I can't imagine a situation where a warden couldn't find some reason to do a search if he was so inclined. He's not going to walk away from a violation of civil law if he finds it either... he will just make a call to the proper authority!
Then everything is up to the courts, lawyers, and how deep your pockets are.
Nikonut ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 19, 2010 07:53 PM
Jeremy (specifically),
Kansas wardens possess the same authority as state troopers as far as state line to state line, but like troopers, their area of expertise is considerably less broad than is, say, a Deputy Sheriff. Troopers know all the laws and regs pertaining to operating on highweays and aircraft, while they know nothing about wildlife laws and regulations. Having said that, if they see a violation occur, they do possess the authority to affect an arrest on that basis. Likewaiee for the vive-versa. Wardens cxan and will arrest you for DUI, domestic violence, theft, etc..
As far as entering your property, a Kansas game warden has the authority to enter onto private property when he sees something or someone he feels compelled to check, such as a hunter or trapper. He cannot enter a dwelling or vehicle without a court order granting him persmission to do so after he has demonstrated probable cause. Plain view is something else altogether. If he enters your property to check your hunting license and discovers you weeding your pot patch or cold cooking meth, you're toast, and not in a good way. If he thinks you have something in your car or truck that he wants to see but that isn't in plain view, he's required to ask your consent to search. You can decline, which means he'll detain you there until someone gets hold of a judge who can issue the order to conduct the search. If you have nothing to hide, you're better off proving it.
As far as the fairness in trials and the criminal justice system, bullshit. I've learned a lot in the past three years in raising a teenager whose caught the eye of the local constabulary for stupid, petty little crap. Last Monday, I sat in a municipal courtroom and saw a concerted effort by a municipal judge and a city attorney to systematically violate the constitutional rights of at least four different people - one of which was my son - through intimidation and willfully failing to ensure that these people knew their rights in court. Personally, I've gone from the kind of guy that would have turned my own mother over to the law to the kind of guy that wouldn't piss in their ear if their brains were on fire.
Hooty's going dark...
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Don't tread on me!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted February 20, 2010 12:58 AM
Sorry to hear that Lance but you aren't the only one that feels that way. ...And that's coming from someone who has many friends in law enforcement and has worked side by side in many programs with LEO's.
There will always be a few bad ones but overall the good ones are all we have to protect us from the real crazies on a daily basis.
Nikonut
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 20, 2010 06:30 AM
Hootie, I get pissed at cops and I work with em. I wouldnt consent to search, no matter what. Too much room for error. Even if I had nothing to hide, I would make em get a warrant and I would try my damndest to have an attorney there by the time the got the warrant. A bad cop can make you guilty even if you have nothing.
As for the courts, its sad to say, but I would never go to court without an attorney. My oldest got in trouble for beatin the shit out of the school bully a couple years ago, instead of the school handling it, the arrested him and sent him to the juvenile officer. Even though I know her well, and her husband who is a cop, and we were all greeted with hugs when we went in, I brought an attorney with me. Its your right, use it. If not, the law and constitution is whatever they say it is.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted February 20, 2010 08:26 AM
Andy, your advice mirrors the exact scenarios and reasons I heard from a law proffessor recently for having a lawyer present when being questioned.
Like your advice, he said to never make a statement or allow cops to search your property without a lawyer present. Plead the 5th and get a lawyer as too many citizens think they are doing the right thing by making statements and allowing searches. Mistakes get made and all too quickly an innocent person finds themselves in court or jail.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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newbomb
Knows what it's all about
Member # 888
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posted February 20, 2010 11:22 AM
I had a Indiana Conservation Officer give me a minor consuming ticket once. He came up on me and a buddy with a couple girls in my truck and we were stuck in the mud out in the middle of nowhere. Sumbitch wouldnt even pull me out! His partner searched the hell out of my truck and made us poor our beer out. That was a long time ago...........oh the memories.
Posts: 66 | From: southern indiana | Registered: Jul 2006
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 20, 2010 11:44 AM
Lonny, if your being questioned, you can talk yourself into trouble but no way to talk yourself out of it. Your law professor was correct. Dont talk.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted February 20, 2010 11:48 AM
Andy, a "bad" police officer cannot "make" you guilty regarding a consent search. Only YOU can make you guilty.
A police officer asking for a consent search is doing the RIGHT thing. He is abiding by the constitution by reqesting consent to search your vehicle absent of probable cause. As you have stated, you have the right to refuse consent. If a police officer were doing the WRONG thing he would search your vehicle without probable cause or without your consent. If you guys think the LEO's are "bad" because they ask for consent then you are howling at the wrong dog.
Did you ever take a look at the clientele of American prisons? They weren't put there by doctors, lawyers, dentists, teachers, etc. They were put there by American police officers.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted February 20, 2010 12:10 PM
49494,
I think what Andy was implying, was that a bad cop could plant something that was not there before, and then it's your word against the bad cops.
Maybe I'm wrong.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted February 20, 2010 12:32 PM
Fair enough, if that is what he meant.
I don't know though...with 21 years in law enforcement I have never seen that happen.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 20, 2010 01:17 PM
Thats exactly what I was implying.
I believe in the constitution. Im not anti cop even. But Im not letting anyone search my vehicle unless I have to. If a cop wants to search, go get the warrant. Simple. I have that right. I also have right to an attorney.
I know alot of cops. I work with cops all the time in my job. Most are great guys. Some are over zealous and some are crooked. Just like in all walks of life. Ive seen cops violate people rights that werent smart enough to know that they had a choice to the point I was sick.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted February 20, 2010 02:03 PM
That sums it up perfectly Andy.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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