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Author
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Topic: Al Morris on the Outdoor Channel
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 12, 2008 12:01 PM
Was watching the outdoor channel this morning as it was raining. I missed the first half of the show but Al Morris was hunting coyotes somewhere and then it switched to Al hunting a CO mule deer. At the end of the show, Al was back to talking about coyote calling.
He mentioned that it was mid to late September and the coyotes were good enough to skin and should be worth $15.
I edited out my opinion on this, I'll just present what he said and you can judge this representation of our sport on public TV for yourself.
~SH~
[ October 12, 2008, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted October 12, 2008 12:44 PM
Wiley E, I saw the show, but I'm keeping my opinion to myself. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted October 12, 2008 04:43 PM
Considering the same jingle ass has stated that 3 day old coyote pups are capable of living on their own, without suckling on a momma that has been wacked by summertime hunters....I'd say, yeah, sounds about right for his logic.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted October 12, 2008 06:07 PM
$15 was the high last year at the VHA hunt held the first weekend of Dec. !!!!!
It's just easier to get alot of video in Sept. than Jan.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted October 12, 2008 06:30 PM
Scott, I was reading this and asked my self some questions. Im not a fur man by no means I just kill em and if they are good I sell em. So on to my thoughts.
I watched the show and when he did that segment he said there was two days left in Sept. Im not sure what the elevation was were he was at but I know some coyotes were killed oct 7th in AZ that was good enough to skin.
Would 7 days make that much diffrence? Maybe good enough but blue as you fur guys call them?? This aint a poke just a question. I know Al has said stuff that some think isnt so and thats fine, thats how the world is but to put this "representation of our sport on public TV" on the chopping block is a bit much in my opinion just because he said a coyote was beutiful and prolly would bring $15. The only thing i seen wrong was he didnt say he might be blue, but hey we knew that.
Scott I by no means are wanting a big post debate because I cant win if Im against you for sure. You are proven and i respect that and you, I just thought i would speak my opinion and i hope you respect that.
edit: Oh and Scott if you want a copy of the video them hunts were on just hollar, might be good for another rainy day. It even has some good Missouri stuff on it.
[ October 12, 2008, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted October 12, 2008 07:29 PM
Randy,Man I tell ya. I wished I could get some sept dumb coyotes on film. Ive put three on film just messin around and they all were mature. Ive been out with a bow and that kill was even a mature coyote. I figured the easy in sept stuff would make my bow killin footage better but oh well. If stuff was given to ya and you didnt have to work for it you wouldnt respect it i guess,lol. Hey I think Ill copy right that one.
edit for word
[ October 12, 2008, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 12, 2008 08:47 PM
Ah, what the hell......
Steve,
The impression that was left with the listeners was that a late September coyote had fur value, was worth skinning, and would bring $15.
Do you question that this was the implication left with the viewers?
If not and if you plan to defend this position, then please tell me the name of the furbuyer that will pay $15 for a late September coyote?
This is directed at the message, not the messenger. Don't know anything about the messenger only heard the name a couple times.
~SH~
[ October 12, 2008, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted October 13, 2008 04:09 AM
Like I stated I am not a fur man and dont ever take em to an auction or any other place than the old man in town here. I was just questioning whether seven or 8 days made a diffrence and was it worth the chopping block. Like i said also I know there were some coyotes shot in AZ in early oct that were good enough?
Now the value, your prolly right and Im not saying diffrent.
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 13, 2008 07:37 AM
Wiley editing his own comments? Never thought I'd see THAT!
I didn't see the show, hardly ever turn on any of that hunting stuff?
But, September is a little early, no matter how much darkness or how cold the weather. Are they passable? Probably, in my areas, blue generally, but still somewhat presentable.
Now, the real question for me is....am I going to pull fur and put them on stretchers for fifteen dollars? Probably not?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 13, 2008 10:45 AM
I think most recreational coyote callers, at some time or other, have had to learn their lesson on trying to market blue hides, thin flanks, and weak bellies (early coyotes) before Nov. After they learn that lesson, most realize skinning a coyote before the 25th of Oct. is pretty much a waste of the resource in most situations.
Sure, you can try to hide a few blue hides in a batch of pelts but seasoned fur buyers aren't stupid. They bid the average accordingly to compensate for the flat backs.
As far as where "legitimate" predator control work falls into this picture, most "legitimate" predator control work is seasonal (early spring and summer) due to fall and winter immigration and spacial redistribution of coyotes. The exception would be year round coyote control that must occur in high sheep production areas and places where fall calving is occuring. Most seasoned ADC men that are not working large bands of range sheep or fall calving cows during the prime fur season let the recreational fur hunters have at them during prime fur season. This is also the time when big game seasons are keeping coyotes shuffled constantly. When February comes and coyotes start locking into an area, that's when our work begins.
There is a lot of long time recreational callers at this site who are not involved in "legitimate" ADC work. They are concerned enough about the utilization of this resource that they wait to hunt coyotes until the fur is prime which is usually the last week in Oct. or first week in November. Nothing irks them more than to see someone out harvesting unprime coyotes to get the jump on the naive coyotes only to harvest a coyote that is not even saleable. I respect and support that viewpoint. Some try to justify their early pup hunting by claiming ADC work with no sheep or fall calving cows for miles in any direction.
Personally, when "legitimate" ADC work is not a factor, I think shooting September and October coyotes reflects negatively on recreational coyote fur hunting due to the inability to utilize the resource.
It's a little more understandable with someone who doesn't have the confidence to think they can compete for prime fur later but far less understandable with someone who the industry considers an expert.
To each their own but even though I am involved in ADC work, I still have a great deal of respect and admiration for the successful, ethical recreational coyote fur harvester and I've always sought to find a balance between the diverse interests while conducting ADC work.
My goal as an ADC trapper is simple. Minimize and/or prevent livestock damage. That doesn't measure success by a body count on dead coyotes as some believe, it measures success by a decreasing body count on dead livestock. As one gains experience you realize the importance of the correct timing to remove problem coyotes from historic problem areas as opposed to the ignorance based, year round, "scorched earth" approach.
Striking that balance means taking heat from ranchers who think dispersing coyotes in the winter are the same coyotes that are killing livestock the following spring and should be removed immediately and it means taking the heat from recreational coyote hunters when you have to remove problem animals during prime fur season. I have no problem taking heat from either side because the focus remains the same, minimizing livestock loss.
Outside of that, I like to see coyotes harvested during prime fur season as opposed to seeing someone call dumb September pups then try to justify it by claiming their fur has value but that's just me.
~SH~
[ October 13, 2008, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted October 13, 2008 10:56 AM
Al Morris is as knowledgeable as anyone about coyote hunting. In a one on one conversation anyone can and can sooner or later make a stupid statement, which he could go back and rectify. When filming an event things are a little different, he may in fact wish he hadn't said it.
Then it is probably edited by someone that don't know anything about predator hunting or fur prices.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 13, 2008 11:48 AM
DC: "When filming an event things are a little different, he may in fact wish he hadn't said it.
Doesn't change the fact that Al was hunting September coyotes under the premise of recreational fur harvesting.
~SH~
[ October 13, 2008, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted October 13, 2008 01:11 PM
I'm not sure how I can word this to "stay on topic" but I need to side-step the entire reference to Al Morris or his quote for a moment.
WileyE: Around here, those early season resources (aka pups) will likely end up rotting with a deer slug in them before their "smart enough" for us to hunt under that assessment. Guys hunting in September and the first two weeks of October in my state are required to hunt under landowner permission for unwanted/nuisance animals (by law) as season doesn’t open until October 15th. (Thus a common sloppy use of the term ADC) Those who wait for the 10/15 opener often take advantage of that initial 3 week period to call higher numbers and less pressured coyotes before deer hunters come into the picture.
I know a good number of callers from my state and I try to pay close attention to their statistics. The average guy that works hard will probably kill 2 or 3 coyotes in the early season (pre deer gunseason) which ranges from mid September thru mid November. I don’t know many guys that will blow a call during the daytime in the 4 weeks of Indiana’s deer firearms seasons. It’s dangerous and fairly unproductive.
Those guys will come back to harvest another 1 or 2 +/- in the late season (after all gun seasons close which ranges from early December thru March 15th. Yup, that’s it. Five months of open season and a vast amount of public access- and they’ll average 3-5 coyotes off the call per year if they work at it.
I question the logic that pre-prime calling will be the chopping block for our heritage. If we’re going to take away their best chance of success, or even call it morally reprehensible, then yes I see the dark clouds forming.
The limiting factor in the growth and therefore popularity of predator calling in my area is the difficulty of staying successful. By implying that the only “right” way to kill a coyote is during the onslaught of November’s orange army- we’d certainly narrow the participation in this sport. THAT, to me, would sooner be the demise of this game than any public perception of throwing a scraggly $9 coyote in the ditch.
I’ll not argue when fur begins to prime, or when it begins to rub, and what its valued at during that narrow window. I can’t verify what percentage of pups survive deer season- or how many guys even skin their coyotes around here anymore. I can only tell you that the assumptions of public perception cannot be nearly as dangerous as the carving away at our own ranks. As you said, to each their own.
EDITED TO ADD: By carving away at our own ranks- I mean "them vs. us" type of thing. I can't speak for Al Morris or his show or any argument betweenst people. Just looking at this from a "Fall vs. Winter" standpoint.
[ October 13, 2008, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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callcrazy
PAKMAN
Member # 3211
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posted October 13, 2008 01:21 PM
He was hunting in New Mexico.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted October 13, 2008 02:18 PM
I found out my coyotes are easier to call in the spring than the fall or winter month's, so do i call and kill spring coyotes so i can gain a higher kill number? No!
The calling maybe tougher in the fall and winter but i'm willing to wait.
As far as Al i have no comment, and i believe the hunters would be better represented by someone else like Les Johnson or Quinton W.
T.A. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 13, 2008 02:49 PM
Jrb,
You present an interesting situation in Indiana which might be applicable in other eastern states. Those circumstances do no apply to most situations in the west with vast amounts of public land. The only reason to call in September in most areas in the west, outside of "legitimate" predator control work, is to have more coyotes to call.
If jumping the gun on prime fur to have access to more critters was not an issue, you wouldn't have trapping seasons on any furbearers in any state. Trappers would just wait until prime fur to trap. The fact that many states have seasons is proof that most fur trappers do not believe in wasting the resource.
I remember when non resident trappers used to flock to Montana in the late 70's to trap September fox when their own state's season didn't open until later. They figured even if they got $30 for fox that might be worth $80 - $100 later, it was worth their time. The locals who were waiting for prime fur got hosed. Legislation was quickly introduced to remedy that problem.
Again, if legitimate use of the resource was not a concern, no furbearer would need a season in any state.
The only reason many furbearers do not have seasons is to remove the concern with their removal when they cause problems outside of prime fur season.
Beaver are a huge problem in SD yet there is a season in Eastern SD that opens on November 1st. Why do you suppose that is?
~SH~
[ October 13, 2008, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 13, 2008 03:14 PM
We don't have monitors to keep you on topic, jr. Get as far afield as you need to, or want to.
Scott, is it possible to illuminate and support this sentence a little better, for me?
quote:
Again, if legitimate use of the resource was not a concern, no furbearer would need a season in any state. SH
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Doug
Knows what it's all about
Member # 31
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posted October 13, 2008 04:28 PM
I was out training dogs in mid Sept and shot a few coyotes. The hides were poor. We skun one to have a hide to train a friends dog with. However, I do have a buyer for any pale coyotes that I shoot in October from a local taxidermist that tans hides and ***** to the public. He prefers the October hides for tanning and sale to the public. Are the early October hides prime? Not always, but they look nice and don't have the guard hairs tore out from running thru the brush.
Doug
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My mountain cur thinks I'm God.
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted October 13, 2008 05:15 PM
I didn't see the show or know Al Morris from Al Capone, but if I had to guess, it probably has something to due with justifying the shooting of coyotes to the average deer/pheasant/turkey hunter and prompting them to give it a whirl. You can't eat or score coyotes so the hunting media needs to make it into something else for the reason to kill them.
If they,(Morris and Co.) can convince some bored deer hunter to crawl off the couch, and possibly buy some stuff and even make some money in the process, their mission is complete. Most serious coyote hunters know the occasional coyote chaser won't actually make any money in the long run, but it sure sounds good and it might convince them to try!
It seems in most varmint/coyote articles in the larger outdoor rags, the author always gives the little speech about saving the game resource while helping the starving ranchers/farmers with the problems that coyotes and other vermin produce. If you kill some ground squirrels for a poor rancher, you might save his prize stallion from a broken leg. It sure sounds good and gives the average guy out in TV land the ability to justify shooting something for fun.
[ October 13, 2008, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted October 13, 2008 05:26 PM
Scott is right about the coyotes in my area right now. They are moving and bouncing from antelope and deer hunters. And due to that I have ranchers calling daily because someone (a hunter or hired hand) seen a coyote! No livestock killing going on, but everyone is seeing coyotes. So my phone is constant. But I am just easing around putting up a few snares and waiting for the end of the dang rifle seasons. Then I'll get some serious equipment out.
As for Al, I've met him at a few contests and he seems like a nice guy. I can't fault him for calling a coyote when he gets the chance. I think the coyote market is going to tank so bad this year that there is likely not any use skinning anything. Many places don't have a coyote good enough to skin anyway. I'd throw them in a sinkhole long before I'd put them up for 15 bucks.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 13, 2008 05:28 PM
L: "Scott, is it possible to illuminate and support this sentence a little better, for me?"
SH (previous): "Again, if legitimate use of the resource was not a concern, no furbearer would need a season in any state."
If utilization of the resource by harvesting prime fur was not a concern with the majority in any particular state, no furbearers would have seasons. Most seasons on furbearers were established to prevent the harvest of unprime fur. Coyotes are usually exempt from those seasons due to the damage they create.
JRB: "I can only tell you that the assumptions of public perception cannot be nearly as dangerous as the carving away at our own ranks."
That's the same argument presented any time dissention occurs within the hook and bullet crowd but there is many laws that have been passed to address differences in opinion on the manner in which hunting should occur and when it should occur.
The same argument was presented when the traditional archers showed concerns about the success rates occuring due to the high tech archery equipment that was available. As archery equipment became more high tech and success rates went up, all archery hunters faced the possibility of reduced seasons due to those higher success rates.
Dissention amongst archers or just calling it like it was? Depends on whether you shot a compound and were highly successful or whether you shot a recurve and enjoyed the longer seasons?
~SH~
[ October 13, 2008, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted October 13, 2008 05:35 PM
If your in it for the fur you will wait, if your in it to kill some coyotes you won't.
If you are an ADC guy you will do what you need to do when you need to do it and keep your producers happy first IMO. Or you will slowly but surely be ruined.
Each one of us, ADC guys, handle our complaints and districts diferently. Not a wrong or a right, just different!!!
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 13, 2008 05:48 PM
RR: "Each one of us, ADC guys, handle our complaints and districts diferently. Not a wrong or a right, just different!!!"
That's correct!
Some ADC men will tell producers that lions won't attack a mature horse from the front and that lions can't enter and leave an areas on fresh snow cover without leaving tracks. The next ADC man finds it easier to tell landowners what they want to hear ("yup, it was a lion"). It depends on whether one places a higher value on the facts or on appeasement. No right or wrong way, just different? Personally, I've never worried about winning the popularity contest. I guess that's also why I'm not much of a "company man".
~SH~
[ October 13, 2008, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted October 13, 2008 05:52 PM
Well hell Scott, I knew this would get long. Trust me I am not a biologist or a 30 year fur man. I’m just a guy that can call coyotes and kill them and take to the fur house on the carcass and get 10 to 15 bucks for a good one in years past. I am smart enough to know when a thread is good though. A lot of useful info on this thread even though I don’t agree with some of it.
TA, Man that’s funny. Did you know Les and Q did represent the hunters or do you read or watch TV. You know your prolly right A TWO TIME WORLD CHAMP aint a good choice. Man you are ate up. At least your killing coyotes now and not losing sleep over that.
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted October 13, 2008 07:21 PM
This discussion in no way was meant as a personal attack on Al Morris. As far as his representation of recreational calling on TV, I disagree with him on two fronts. The value of September fur and my personal opinion that I would rather see recreational callers wait for prime fur. If there is no fur value as Cal has suggested could be a possibility, the fur value becomes a moot point.
I need to address this...
RR: "If you are an ADC guy you will do what you need to do when you need to do it and keep your producers happy first IMO. Or you will slowly but surely be ruined."
I agree in keeping producers happy by minimizing and preventing their livestock losses. I don't believe in keeping them happy by trying to kill every coyote they see in the fall and winter. I think we have a responsibility to educate them to the fact that the coyotes they see now are more than likely not going to be the same coyotes that set up camp next spring and cause problems. There is a lot of shuffling between now and then.
As far as ruination, we can provide the best service in existance but if ADC work is not a funding priority, if we are not held accountable for the service we provide to the livestock producers we serve, and if experience is not important to a position of ADC leadership, ruination will not have anything to do with the quality of service we provide. You can take that to the bank!
~SH~
[ October 13, 2008, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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