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Author
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Topic: Couple questions
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted September 20, 2008 11:27 AM
For you tech gurus,
1. What are the pros and cons of the various custom triggers as opposed to factory?
Timney?
Jewel (sp?)?
other?
2. What are your thoughts on Zeiss scopes in comparison to Leupold?
Don't know if this is the right place for these equipment questions.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 20, 2008 12:05 PM
I'm not one of those things, but a guy that knows a lot about triggers is DAA. Remington makes some very good triggers for competition, by the way. As far as aftermarket triggers, I like a single set Canjar for predators.
The glass question is a very deep subject. Leupold makes perfectly adequate scopes. Unless you hunt at night or consistantly hunt low light conditions, you will probably never (fully) appreciate the advantages of a top of the line European scope. You take superior lens coatings for light transmission, and add 30mm tubes and 56mm objective and this adds weight, but it can also extend your shooting light into the fifteen minutes at the beginning and end of the day that most others are sitting in their truck heading down the road.
If you ever travel Europe, you might see those little shacks on stilts overlooking a field. You don't have to carry a rifle with a big scope on it, just sit there and wait for the stag to wander out of the forest. It's a different type of big game hunting, but, when you think about it, not very much different from a coyote stand, in some respects. But, this is the application for big glass; low light conditions.
As we get a little older, (they tell me) our night vision degrades a bit, so there is an advantage in superior quality design and components. Whether it is worth the cost is an individual choice.
The difference in cost is substantial. You can buy a very decent Leupold for $500 and you can pay $1800 for Swarvoski. Both will fix it, if it breaks, but Leupold will have you back in business, sooner.
What I think is a good compromise is the Zeiss Conquest line, made in USA. I have a 4.5X14X44 which has a 1" tube, but you look through it and all you can say is WOW!
It's a sacrifice, but if you pay top dollar, you will never say; damn! I wish I had bought a cheaper scope.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 20, 2008 12:53 PM
quote:
1. What are the pros and cons of the various custom triggers as opposed to factory?
Timney?
Jewel (sp?)?
other?
Depends on what pull weight you want, which factory trigger is being considered for replacement (Rem.? Win.? Savage?) and also application to some extent (field rifle, prairie dog rifle, target rifle?).
For pull weights over about 24 oz. or so (a field rifle), I think a properly tuned factory Rem. 700 trigger is pretty hard to beat and that's what most of my rifles have. For lighter pulls than that, Jewell is the "gold standard". But... then again, it still "depends". For a pull weight still over about 12 oz., say 12 oz. to 24 oz. or so (roughly), I really am not a big fan of three lever designs like the Jewell. It's just too hard to get ALL the creep out and still be safe to drops and bumps etc. Now, I know that is an opinion that is NOT shared by a LOT of people, but, I've had a bunch of Jewell HVR's, I know how to adjust them, and have used them a hell of a lot, and I honestly just don't care for them in a field application at pull weights over about 1 lb. And I'm especially not a fan of three lever designs in really cold/wet weather. If a factory Rem. trigger can't be easily and safely tuned to that range (12 - 24 oz.) for some reason (unusual, but happens), my personal preference is the Rifle Basix - but I forget the exact model - and it DOES matter - the target model suffers the same drawbacks as the Jewell. Again, just my opinion.
For anything below roughly about 12 - 16 oz. or so, it's Jewell HVR all the way. There are others that can do just as well, but for ease of ordering and ease of replacement parts/repair down the road, just make it a Jewell and be done with it.
I can't see any good reason to ever replace a Rem. factory trigger with a Timney, by the way.
quote:
2. What are your thoughts on Zeiss scopes in comparison to Leupold?
I agree with everything Leonard said about this. My opinion, the Zeiss is a better scope, in every way, period. I've got a couple of the Conquest 4.5-14's Leonard mentioned and they are great. But... They ARE bigger and heavier than a comparable Leupold VX3 4.5-14. And on a hunting rifle, size and weight very often matter quite a damn bit. To me anyway. Especially if the difference actually effects the balance I like in a negative way - and it often does. And like Leonard said, the Leupold really is a perfectly adequate scope. So, most of my rifles still wear the Leupold's, and I've no plans to switch them to the Zeiss, even though I do think it's a better scope. For most of my setups, I very much prefer the lighter weight and more compact size of the Leupold, and they get the job done just fine. I much prefer the 40mm Leupold 4.5-14 over the 50mm too, for all the same reasons as above. In all my years of hunting I've never had to pass up a shot because I lacked another 10mm of objective lens.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 20, 2008 01:00 PM
A P.S. to add...
My last sentence, about never having to pass up a shot because of a 40mm objective... I don't do much night hunting, at all, and don't have any rifles setup just for night hunting. If I did, I suspect I'd compromise on the size/weight issue to get some superior quality and bigger glass.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 20, 2008 01:16 PM
Well, I sure agree with Dave about (not) replacing a factory Remington trigger on a field gun. Once you know how, and understand how to adjust a trigger, I have never had an urge to replace a stock Remington with any aftermarket trigger. They are good enough that they could sell a bunch for replacements for Winchesters and Rugers, not sure about the Savage acu trigger?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted September 21, 2008 08:46 AM
Thanks for the input DAA and Leonard. I'm thinking I need a higher end scope just because. LOL! I have a .223 S&W 1500 that I'm going to convert to a .204 with the fluted Satern barrel I just bought. I want a cartridge for shooting fox and bobcats that will still punch a coyote. I'm impressed with the ballistics and accuracy of the .204 using a 40 gr. Hornady bt. It's time for a new toy.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 21, 2008 09:07 AM
I've only messed with two of those Howa triggers, so not much experience to form an opinion from. But, both of them adjusted pretty easily to a safe, reasonably crisp 32 oz. without taking them apart to smooth surfaces or anything like that. Not sure if they could or would have gone lower and remained safe and crisp, the guy I did them for didn't want them any lower. My impression was that they are a pretty decent factory trigger to work with though.
Not sure who all even makes replacement triggers for the 1500. Have "heard" (no first hand experience) that the Jard replacement trigger for them is pretty good though.
"Just because" is the #1 reason for all upgrades, and needs no further justification! Get a Zeiss. You'll like it - they really ARE nice scopes.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 21, 2008 10:59 AM
I have a S&W 1500, myself. Bought it used, from a CSVCA member. Whoever did the trigger work got it right, I have never touched it. Don't know what it is exactly, but it is well under a pound? 8-10 ounce, maybe?
I would give it to someone that knows how to adjust triggers, Scott.
I just found out that Canjar is no longer in business and they probably wouldn't have one for a Howa anyway? That is a shame!
Good hunting. LB
[ September 21, 2008, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted September 22, 2008 04:43 AM
Nightforce makes an excellent scope that I believe is superior to Ziess & Leopold in the field. A Nightforce NXS improves your visibility in low-light far beyond any scope I've ever seen. If you're into long range shooting- the Nightforce reticles are unmatched. I prefer the NP-1RR or NP-R1 reticles.
On the downside, they're very expensive and are not a domestic product. I've had (or still have) the top of the line Ziess, Swaro & Loopy. Nightforce is the best: wish I could afford a few more.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted September 22, 2008 05:11 PM
DAA, I have a HOWA that I use for prarie dogs. I had the factory trigger adjusted by a smith. He took it down to just over 32 oz like yours. Mine never seems toostay adjusted, it seemed to 'gain' creep over time. Since I wanted it around 1.5 lbs, I went ahead and bought a timney for it. I wish i had done that to begin with.
I guess thats the long way of saying that Timney makes replacement triggers for Howa....LOL
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 22, 2008 07:22 PM
And here I thought ALL country boys knew how to adjust a freaking trigger? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted September 22, 2008 07:31 PM
quote:
And here I thought ALL country boys knew how to adjust a freaking trigger?
Well.....we do know how, just some of us are high rollin' enough to have 'our smith' do it...LOL
[ September 22, 2008, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 22, 2008 07:42 PM
Maybe next time, you go to a different 'smith because triggers shouldn't normally gain creep, if done correctly and screws sealed with nail polish? You DO have nail polish in the house, for your pedicures?
Good hunting. lB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted September 22, 2008 07:46 PM
Sure, what color do YOU recommend? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 22, 2008 08:20 PM
CrossJ,
Leonard prefers pink, but I like the clear coat stuff better. I have used pink, but figured nobody would notice if I got the action back in the stock before they saw it.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted September 25, 2008 11:02 PM
I have my first timney and i like it but would certainly look into Jewel before my next purchuse because of word of mouth
Prairie Ghost
www.coyotehunter.net
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 26, 2008 07:16 AM
Nothing wrong with a Timney for a hunting rifle. I have them in three different custom Mauser rifles. I set em just a bit above nothing. On my Remington 700,s, I find the factory trigger works just fine after adjustment.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
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posted October 11, 2008 12:20 AM
I tried a jewell trigger on a guys rail gun at the shooting range awhile ago, biggest damm bull barrel Ive ever seen it was so light I just barely touched it with the skin of my finger and it went "click" he said it was set at 3 ounces but then again thats probably appropriate for that type of gun.
Then on another occasion a gal showed up at the 500 yrd target area to place her target next to mine when we got back down to our benches. I noticed she was shooting a Remington Sendero 300 win mag., topped with a Nightforce scope and me my trusty 300 Winchester mag Special Edition Fagen. Course mine had the glass bed job but topped with a fixed 6x redfield standard duplex reticle scope I figured was my only handicap we both shot a five shot string and went to look at our groups. Her's was within MOA or better and mine was at MOA or just out side of that. I think we were pretty matched up as far as our rifles and chambering. I then asked her if I could take a gander through her scope I wasnt surprised she clearly had the upper hand advantage.I knew she did her home work but later found out she works for the Idaho Game Fish Dept...Who? said this is a mans world.
[ October 11, 2008, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
Posts: 241 | From: SE IDAHO | Registered: Jan 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted October 13, 2008 02:34 PM
Scopes with the high dollar glass are great to use if punching paper Or even nite hunting but for day time coyote hunting i don't believe a hunter needs one.
I still have a couple of rifles with factory triggers that where cleaned up but i prefer a custom trigger and i use jewell,canjar, Stiller and a few others..At the moument the Stiller is my favorite with the canjar comeing in second..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted October 13, 2008 04:47 PM
Fortunately, I guess you don't miss what you've never had. Ive owned hundreds of rifles,pistols and revolvers,and only two had what would be considered custom triggers, one a Wilson Super Grade 1911,and the other a custom Frank Glenn revolver, both used for competition.
Not one of my rifles has ever had anything but a box stock trigger,although many of them tuned pretty fair. Im not a fan of light triggers anyway, but have had that experience of a fellow shooter, giving a wink and a nod, with the request for me to "give that a try", snapping the trigger on his target or hunting rifle that has way to light of a trigger for me.
I can be perfectly happy with a trigger 2-4 pounds, when I hear ounces, Im not impressed, but wary instead. As long as a trigger is crisp, breaks cleanly with no creep, Im tickled shitless.
I used to dabble in trap shooting, a ton of fun, but obviously I was a better hand at handgun shooting than shotgunning,and I was never terribly to dangerous to the top guys at my club. I did get to play with their high dollar scatterguns, and if you really want to get screwed up, try pissing with those shotguns with the release triggers, so foreign to pull the trigger first, then release when lined up on a bird to fire?
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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