quote:

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Ok Rich Let's give this a try.

"I have little knowledge of how ADC works in other places. Where I have done ADC work, no licence was required.
Some of the work I've done was for Fish/Wildlife branches and organizations that had animal control contracts with municipalities. I also have done and continue to do ADC work for local ranchers."

USDA WS has a volunteer program in which the volunteer must register with the agency to gain access to the contracted lands and to set foot in a WS vehicle. Is that true in Alberta?

"Most of the local work is done in exchange for access to hunt, during hunting season."

I understand that. Tyler and I offered free coyote removal to Missouri goat farmers in order to gain access to calling areas. Mostly private land there and the land owners don't permit hunting and calling access to strangers.

"I started handling aniaml complaints including but not restricted to coyotes in the early 70's. I did nuisanxce trapping for the F/W branch at that time as well. The coyote complaints were mostly disappearing pet problems in the urban areas and livestock issues in the rural areas.

I've read what you think about calling or dealing with the urban coyote, and I also see that anyone who has a different point of view must be wrong."

Not true. I question everyone about most everything and I'm constantly rewarded with absolute jewels of information from experienced callers. This board is replete with predator callers with long and varied knowledge who have seen things that I have not seen and know things that I do not know. An open mind and the willingness to ask is all that is required for me to benefit from the knowledge and experience of these men. It's available to you as well. For a small price.

Unfortunately I don't see it that way. My methods and my reasons for killing problem coyotes are apparently different than yours. It seems to be your mission to convince me I'm wrong. Of course that is why I refer to waht you do as "Virtual Hunting"
I don't know if I believe you are wrong or right because you have never stated your methods and reasons to me for killing problem coyotes. You have sidestepped my questions and ridiculed me for being only able to call "tame", "citified" urban coyotes, "virtual hunting" as you call it.

"The truth of the matter is that neither of us will change the other's mind about the complexities, consequences or reasons for calling or killing urban coyotes."

That is obviously true of your closed mind. However, you have never stated to me what you believe those complexities, consequences, and reasons are. If they are credible you may very well change my mind. I hope to learn something from everyone I speak with or read about. I just finished an absolutely marvelous book entitled
" Coyotes, Trappers, Sheepherders and Urbanites" by Frank Turkowski who is a an Adjunct Professor of Biology, wildlife research biologist, and former government trapper for the USDA WS. On page 3 of the book he explained a behavior that I had an incomplete understanding of. When I read the paragraph I was honestly delighted because it made perfect sense and I was holding a book that had the potential of harboring any number of wonderful little nuggets just like that one.
Perhaps I will learn something from you.

"We may simply have to agree to disagree on those points. Hey at least we would agree on something.

If you want to discuss methods or techniques, by all means let's do that. If you want to convert me, then I'm not interested.

I tell the religious guys that knock on my door the same thing. I don't conversion, I'm happy in my little swamp.

I do have an interest in discussing hunting of any kind.

---

"

I'm not a missionary. Converting heathens just doesn't interest me.

[ August 13, 2008, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 13, 2008, 04:16 PM:
 
WHAT? THAT'S IT?
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 13, 2008, 04:28 PM:
 
It's a start, Leonard. I asked a specific question and addressed some of his concerns. We will see if he wishes to continue . What were you expecting?
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 13, 2008, 05:01 PM:
 
Good read. What's the price?

I'm really busy now, but I'd like to continue later.
 

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Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on August 13, 2008, 05:10 PM:
 
For the guys in the bleachers, or who have run off to quickly pop up some popcorn, Bring us up to speed: What's at issue here? Is it the actual carring out of ADC work, government sanctioned or otherwise, or is it the behavior patterns of Coyotes who are living in the wide variety of areas where they do the damage?

[ August 13, 2008, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: rainshadow1 ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 13, 2008, 05:12 PM:
 

quote:

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Good read. What's the price?

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quote:

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Redfrog thinks that it annoys me if he says that I can only call Tame, Citified coyotes and that I do not hunt real coyotes.

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RF told me once by E-mail that i only called and killed one coyote in my life time...LOL

We all know you can call wild coyotes and you do a very good job of it as well...

RF just dose'nt know !!

[ August 13, 2008, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 13, 2008, 08:57 PM:
 

quote:

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I've read what you think about calling or dealing with the urban coyote, and I also see that anyone who has a different point of view must be wrong.

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Maybe it's the fact that those that speak of the ease of calling in these "urban" coyotes ARE wrong (for the most part). Or that they don't have any experience doing it and are talking straight out of their ample asses.
It takes more than one trip into town to find out what it takes to call them in CONSISTENTLY! And the failures that sometimes go along with it...

[ August 13, 2008, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on August 13, 2008, 09:15 PM:
 
"RF told me once by E-mail that i only called and killed one coyote in my life time"

Damn, he assumes alot. Probably because he is so pretentious.
 

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Posted by Spawn (Member # 3073) on August 13, 2008, 09:23 PM:
 
I'd postulate that if the slimy bloated toad would try prying his kunt from the kouch instead of "armchair hunting" he may be surprised at what one can get done in a day..
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on August 13, 2008, 09:28 PM:
 
I also checked the list of REGISTERED outfitters in Alberta.

Couldn't find him. Either by name or business name. Then I ran thru the whole list. Ain't there

Maybe he could clear that up the next time he comes here waving his belly around
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 13, 2008, 11:21 PM:
 
By it's very nature, ADC work, is generally not done in an urban environment, but in sub-urbia, or more likely in a rural setting.

I don't know of a single city or township, in which you are allowed to discharge a firearm...
Hunting access is another thing, not on my side of the city limits sign.
And farms, they aren't really part of the urban landscape (very often), are they?

The true urban environment, is the territory of the Nuisance Wildlife Control Operator (NWCO), who's job entails more than just killing animals, and who may not ever use a firearm in his line of work.

My own NWCO license is a few layers deep, requiring a fur trapping license, as well as specific training/certification, and an approved permit (background check, etc.).

A major portion of what I do, is construction/handyman related, repairing the damage done by wildlife, after or in an effort to remove the offender.
Many of the animals I deal with, can't be killed, migratory birds, bats, and frogs, to name a few.

And as I stated in the other thread, there aren't many options to use, to remove a coyote from a city neighborhood.
Not even the cable restraint, or the Collarum, are legal here.
And with 1:1000 cage nights/per catch, the norm, trapping is basically off the table.
Here, shooting coyotes or any other mid to large sized predator, will only ever be done by a guy with a badge (or a Govt. issued firearm, at the least).
*I heard a rumor they got a Navy Seal to take out the coyote that was terrorizing a local military installation (after the Seattle Parks dept. put a stop to the USDA's guy setting up in the park. )

To me, the term "urban ADC work" is an oxymoron.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 14, 2008, 04:56 AM:
 
Damn Krusty! I'm impressed!

You nailed the exact reasons that I called bullshit on him in the other thread.

If anyone has ever tried to legally control coyotes in an Urban setting, he would know that it is one of the hardest tasks to accomplish.

Most of your best tools are either restricted, or not allowed even by permit, and even when you can get a permit to trap or use a firearm, the Liability of making even the smallest mistake will keep you awake at nights.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 14, 2008, 07:23 AM:
 

quote:

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I don't know of a single city or township, in which you are allowed to discharge a firearm...

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quote:

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WS provides their agents with suppressed firearms, rimfire (22mag) and centerfire, and they DO discharge them within the cities of AZ. in the course of their duties.

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Sand box kid its the same here also

they kill deer in the parks of Philadelphia with
suppressed fire arm, and they can do it 24/7

with the right ADC PAPER WORK I i think it can be done anywhere and over bait

[ August 14, 2008, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 14, 2008, 08:20 AM:
 
Red Frog,

You're introductory post said nothing. It eluded to differences of opinions between you and Rich on urban coyotes but said nothing about what those differences of opinion were. If you came here to gather support for your views on urban coyotes, the least you could have done is present those views.

Obama: "IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE"

Liberal Sheep: "Baaaaaaaah"

Independent thinker: "Can you be more specific, what changes"

Without knowing any details of your discussion, it's hard to form an opinion one way or the other. I do know this much, wherever coyotes reside, if you paint them as all being easy or all being difficult then you fail to understand the differences in behavior from one coyote to the next within any environment. The more negative experiences a specific coyote has in it's life related to humans, the more they will behave accordingly. A coyote is a coyote from the standpoint of their basic instincts for survival but they all modify their behavior to fit their individual environments.

CONDITIONED RESPONSE!

~SH~

[ August 14, 2008, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on August 14, 2008, 09:03 AM:
 
I've never found the search engine at PM to be an asset in researching subject matter, to substantiate a position.

Maybe, that's the root cause of the slow responses in this matter.

Nevertheless, we will get an opportunity to read the combined thoughts from Jim and associates, in due course?
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 14, 2008, 09:11 AM:
 
Redfrogs view on taking care of a rural coyote problem: You go out,sit down and start calling and then keep shooting till the coyotes stop coming. Problem solved and case closed. Damn easy ain't it!

[ August 14, 2008, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 14, 2008, 09:41 AM:
 
Tim,

The minute I got my licenses, I "trumped up" a reason to trap the coyotes that live in the park/golf course behind my house, and set about figuring out how I might be able to pull that off.

The more I studied, the coyotes and the situation, the more I realized what I really am up against.

Thanks, it's not all that impressive, once you take a good hard look at the problem, though.

RH "WS provides their agents with suppressed firearms, rimfire (22mag) and centerfire, and they DO discharge them within the cities of AZ. in the course of their duties.

K "Here, shooting coyotes or any other mid to large sized predator, will only ever be done by a guy with a badge (or a Govt. issued firearm, at the least)."

Rich,

I looked into a USDA job (trapping starlings), but lacked the qualifications.

I also looked at the USDA guy's rimfire rifle, "that'd do".
(*By having it issued, he wasn't personally responsible for the suppressor permits.)
(**I myself am limited to 770FPS, and I can't remember how many decibels...)

But, if I took the time to look inside myself, I'd see I'm far from qualified to do his very difficult job, too.

I should have stated, "I don't know of a single city or township, in which the general public, or the average NWCO are allowed to discharge a standard firearm..." ...but I thought that was implied?

George,

The Sandbox Kid... I like it!

Scott,

Nice to see you around, a voice of clarity in the fog is always nice.

2nd independent thinker: "And, Mr. Oba-aa-aah-ma (think sheep sound), what makes you think you are qualified to bring this change about?"

Ahh crap I wasn't gonna say anything political...

Krusty

I gotta go, and drive 100 miles, to get an otter cage, so I won't be back for a while.
There's way too much "other money" to be made, without ever considering coyote control, in the city.

I don't have time to discuss how it's the leash law, just like Scott mentioned, that created a lack of credible threat, a negative "conditioned response" that used to keep coyotes away, and timid.

Or to share my "Urban Tolling; an exercise in surprise!" story.
The short version is, at least one coyote is a whole lot less uppity, than he was before he got his ass whipped.
Being the alpha male, I have to wonder how that effect will trickle down?

Oh yeah I gotta go...
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 14, 2008, 03:58 PM:
 
Rich the answer to your question is No.

Why so touchy. I simply refer to calling wild coyotes as the real deal, and calling urban coyotes as “Virtual hunting” to differentiate between the two. If you don’t agree with my terminology, then carry on letting it annoy you.

I think calling wild/rural coyotes and killing them is “Real hunting”
I think calling urban coyotes and taking their picture is “Virtual hunting”

I do not think ADC work is easy. I just make a distinction between ADC work and recreational hunting. I do think it is harder to do ADC in an urban environment than in a rural one. I say this because of the restraints put on the ADC person, by his “employers” not because the animal is harder to catch or call. It is a lot easier to just to call a coyote and kill it or set a snare when you don’t have to deal with incidental catches and discharge of firearms regulations.

I do think urban coyotes are easier to call than rural coyotes. Citified coyotes don’t get shot at when they come to a call, unless you are doing ADC work and are permitted the use of firearms. So what happens to a coyote that comes to the call in the city?
Oh yeah nothing.

“The more negative experiences a specific coyote has in it's life related to humans, the more they will behave accordingly. A coyote is a coyote from the standpoint of their basic instincts for survival but they all modify their behavior to fit their individual environments.”

Wiley, can you explain what you mean by “Accordingly” or perhaps tell me in what way he would “modify” his behavior?

I happen to think it is a bad choice to call an urban predator without killing it. I think it habituates that animal to human contact without a negative consequence.
In the Vancouver area of British Columbia in the last two weeks there have been 4 black bears shot in residential areas. No they weren’t called in there, but they certainly were comfortable being there and little/no fear of humans. There were several other bear complaints during that time period as well. BTW that is one of the areas I did ADC work.

No before someone runs his mouth about bears not being coyotes, the premise of losing their fear of humans is the same. Does calling coyotes in an urban situation CAUSE coyotes to attack children? Nope . But calling without killing or negative consequences will make them more comfortable around humans, thereby increasing the POSSIBILITY of a coyote/human encounter that would not end well if the human was a small child.

I DO NOT BELIEVE CALLING COYOTES IN URAN AREAS CAUSES THEM TO LOSE THEIR MINDS AND ATTACK SMALL CHILDREN. It simply increases the chances of an encounter when they lose their fear of humans.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 14, 2008, 07:12 PM:
 
With your logic RedFrog:
Calling in a "wild" coyote and letting it get downwind of you is great. Watching as it hits the afterburners as it heads for parts unknown is DESIRABLE!
Because, using Frog Logic, the next time you call the area THAT coyote should come in with even more zeal & zest than before because it experienced no "consequence", except getting a whiff of Toad stool.

Pardon the pun! No offense!

[ August 14, 2008, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 14, 2008, 07:34 PM:
 
Smithers, try to keep up. I didn't say that. I said I thought it was great to call a coyote and kill it. a coyote that comes oto my call will not get a chance for a return visit.

By the way , that wasn't a pun. It was 2/3 of a pun....... PU.

Got a recipe picked out for the coyote you said you were gonna eat? You said it, right here in front of God and everybody. You are still gonna eat it aren't you?
You might find it easier to eat without your foot in your mouth.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 14, 2008, 08:02 PM:
 
Last time my foot could get anywhere near my mouth was when I was ten and limber.

I'm gonna head down to Detroit tomorrow night and call me in some Fer-real urban coyotes.

Know what I'm sayin', son. Fer-real!
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on August 14, 2008, 08:30 PM:
 
"Smithers, try to keep up. I didn't say that. I said I thought it was great to call a coyote and kill it. a coyote that comes oto my call will not get a chance for a return visit."

RF, Smithers is right and you don't seem to understand the inescapable conclusion of your position. You said, "I happen to think it is a bad choice to call an urban predator without killing it. I think it habituates that animal to human contact without a negative consequence.

...calling without killing or negative consequences will make them more comfortable around humans, thereby increasing the POSSIBILITY of a coyote/human encounter."

If you are correct then there is no evading the logic that calling coyotes and not shooting them makes them easier to call. You are saying it reduces their fear of humans. You may believe that. I don't. No one I know who has called many coyotes would give that theory any credibility.

As we went through on the other board, having a human scare the coyote when he comes in to the sound is a negative. Otherwise they would not run away. Not getting shot is not a positive conditioning consequence for coming to the call. The coyote isn't expecting to get shot.

You are digging yourself into a hole. That's puzzling. Is it that important to discredit Higgins and his great photos by implying they endanger children?

If I believed a trace of your theory was true, that calling a coyote and not getting a shot at it might endanger another human besides the caller, I'd crusade to stop all calling of coyotes anywhere. There is no other place for your theory to lead, because no one gets a shot at every coyote he calls, urban or rural.

[ August 14, 2008, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 14, 2008, 08:40 PM:
 

quote:

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.17Rem. .........coyote gun or coyote club?

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You ever use one R.F. ??
 

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Posted by Spawn (Member # 3073) on August 14, 2008, 08:45 PM:
 
Bloated toad, you've amassed so many "facts" and formulated such solid theories from your vast experience hunting real coyotes,that I expect to see a 1hr dedication to your "smarts" on Myth Busters!

You are dumber than I thought...which is impressive,as I weighted it (stupidity) heavily on your part.

You be sure to regale us with your experience and insight..because yipping clueless lapdogs,rather crack me up.

Especially when they are talking out their ass..

[ August 14, 2008, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Spawn ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 14, 2008, 09:04 PM:
 
rf: "Wiley, can you explain what you mean by “Accordingly” or perhaps tell me in what way he would “modify” his behavior?"

Every coyote has a certain level of caution and a certain level of curiousity based on all the experiences they have encountered in their life whether they live in the wild or urban/suburban environments. For the sake of discussion, let's stick to urban/suburban coyotes. If these coyotes had a close call with a car, they try to avoid them. If the sound of a trash can rattling leads to a free meal with no negative consequences, they will associate those sounds with a good thing. If the sound of an alley cat fight leads to an easy meal and the satisfaction of killing that cat with no negative consequences aside from muzzle scratches before the final chomp, they will associate those sounds with a good thing. They act and react according to the experiences they've had with a certain sound in the past. This is not rocket science. Most animals act the same way.

Now let's jump to someone calling in urban coyotes and how that can lead to potential conflicts with humans.

Your words....

RF: "I happen to think it is a bad choice to call an urban predator without killing it. I think it habituates that animal to human contact without a negative consequence."

RF: "...calling without killing or negative consequences will make them more comfortable around humans, thereby increasing the POSSIBILITY of a coyote/human encounter that would not end well if the human was a small child."

I totally disagree. Urban coyotes are already conditioned to human contact or they wouldn't be there, period! Calling them in and taking pictures of them has no more affect on them than to have wasted a small amount of the time they could have spent resting, killing a poodle, killing an alley cat, or picking up french fries along the road.

What will have a much bigger impact on attacks on humans is the fact that they are allowed to live that close to humans and kill pets in yards without consequences. Calling them without shooting them is such a small fraction of the time they have already spent around humans without negative consequences it's basically irrelevant. Just stop and think about the world around them as they move through suburbia. Think about the sights and smells and then ask yourself how someone calling them could possibly add to their lack of fear of humans. A suburban coyote is within close proximity to hundreds and maybe thousands of people and their vehicles every day and you think one caller is going to create a lasting impression on them when it didn't lead to a negative or a positive experience?

If I was a betting man, I would bet that attacks on crying babies in urban areas is because those coyotes have killed lots of screaming cats and yapping dogs with nothing but a few scratches, a full belly, and memories of a thrill kill as a consequence. Those coyotes have been preconditioned by the calls of many pets that led to positive experiences as opposed to the call of a recreational coyote caller that had no impact.

~SH~

[ August 14, 2008, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 14, 2008, 11:46 PM:
 
Wiley, that was refreshing and I think your POV makes some good sense.

I don't think urban coyote attacks are epidemic proportions, but they are a reality. Something makes a coyote think he can pull this attack off.

What do you think it is? It's not like he has a developed a taste for screaming babies. so what would embolden him to try it?
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 14, 2008, 11:47 PM:
 
TA, nope I haven't tried one, that is why I asked the question.
 

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Posted by Scott F. (Member # 1961) on August 15, 2008, 06:14 AM:
 
I personally think a lot of good information can be obtain from the wealth of knowledge read in this particular forum with the turn it has taken. People who only see this as an opportunity to hurl insults with no substantial contribution to the threads general direction are not only wasting their own time but anyone who makes the mistake of reading their worthless post.

So as to make my own post not worthless I will add that when I discharge my 'rifle' at a coyote I have called into an urban type setting is this not creating an unpleasant experience for the coyote? Some I hit, some I don't. Regardless of whether the coyote is killed, wounded, or scared shitless, I doubt the experience of answering my call to within 440' or more from a occupied structure has left a warm fuzzy feeling within him. If anything, he's now going to go further out into the desert.

[ August 15, 2008, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Scott F. ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 15, 2008, 07:19 AM:
 
Just a note, Here in Wyoming I can pretty much do anything inside the city limits that I deem safe. With a phone call to the local Sherrifs office (who usually called me first anyway because they recieved the complaint) I can blast away. Badgers on mainstreet, coyotes on the airport runway, skunks in the backyard. If it is unsafe to discharge a firearm then I have to resort to other methods. But (thankfully) I'm not quite in the suburbia that Higgins and Krusty are.

Oh, and BTW Krusty, you are definately qualified and possibly overqualified for a starling trapping job with WS. The main requirement is that you are breathing and can pass a drug test. Beyond that they usually have a tough time filling those positions. Everybody wants to be a coyote and wolf trapper in Wyoming. Nobody wants the nuisance jobs in the cities.

[ August 15, 2008, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on August 15, 2008, 07:34 AM:
 
Hell Krusty, even JH could get a job shooting cowbirds. More than likely you're over qualified.

What's that little pigmy line that I should be placing here?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on August 15, 2008, 08:44 AM:
 
Well, I am enjoying this post and think I may have picked up some knowledge. If it takes RF coming here to stimulate this type of debate I am all for it.( I can read past the insults) As I spent a small portion of my life trying to set up controlled experiments to verify statisticly some "fact" or another I must say neither side is close to "proving" anything. There are far to many variables to ever eliminate, which makes any conclusion a guess at best. So if you kind members will send me on a trip to hunt with Redfrog and a trip to hunt with Rich Higgins I will attempt to quantify to results of both opinions.
Carl

[ August 15, 2008, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Bofire ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 15, 2008, 08:49 AM:
 
The coyote's social structure and behavior adapt to the current conditions within each particular environment, whether it is mountain, desert, plains or suburbia. Each individual coyote's behavior is governed by it's personal security level which is influenced by pressure from human activity, social status- which determines the role that coyote plays within each social season, type and availablity of food, and the aggressive or submissive nature of that coyotes personality. That information is necessary to understand:
1. That coyote sightings in neighborhoods are relatively rare in light of the fact that there are literally thousands of coyotes living in close proximity. The numbers suggest that the city streets should be infested with the little guys.
2. Most coyotes, to avoid human contact, have become nocturnal. They use green areas, golf courses and washes as travel corridors to and from hunting and bedding areas unless the neighborhood has sufficient cover to meet the security needs of the coyotes. These neighborhoods will have resident coyotes that are seen fairly frequently if the coyotes are not made unwelcome. Many human residents welcome the coyotes and provide food and water for them and therein lies the primary problem. The coyotes know where they are safe and move freely even in early and late daylight hours. They also know where they are not welcome and they become 100% wary coyotes in those areas.
I call these coyotes fairly often and I have never made physical contact with one. I have had three "wild, remote" coyotes jump on me because they come to the call faster and with less caution than the alert "urban/suburban" coyotes do. I have never called in a coyote in close proximity to neighborhoods that did not become alarmed when it discovered what I was.
Coyote-human health and safety incidents usually occur during the latter stages of breeding season through denning season when the coyote becomes aggressively defensive of it's den/core area. They expell all competitors, regardless of the intruders species, that they feel dominant to. They behave toward wolves, domestic dogs, and humans similarly. They avoid physical contact with the large adults, threaten the smaller adults and juveniles and sometimes consider the very young as a bonus food source. They are coyotes, plain and simple.
I don't mind referring to calling coyotes to a camera as "virtual hunting" although in reality the only difference is the ultimate act of depressing a shutter button rather than a trigger.
I just don't have to drive two hours so I get to call realcoyotes more often. That pays major dividends in an accellerated learning curve so that when it is necessary to trade the camera for a gun this sometimes happens:



which , when done consistantly, results in these



Tyler asked my wife and daughter to help find the trophies we have won in calling contests and set them up for the photos and naturally they HAD to ham it up a little.

Here's one with Tyler.


 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 15, 2008, 09:25 AM:
 
Cal,

I dunno 'bout Higgins, but I am about 30 miles from suburbia, I live three miles from downtown Seattle.

Urban doesn't mean you can see A HOUSE!

And if you shoot a badger on Main Street, who pays you?
One of the other difference I see, between ADC and NWCO, is who we work for, and how that gives one of us more authority.

I work for "people" and answer to law enforcement (WDFW, USF&G, etc.), and law enforcement asks of you (and if I have understood you correctly in the past, your base pay comes from these sources not private individuals).

The particular starling trapping job, required a BA in biology, as field studies and testing for disease (West Nile) were part of the job.
Finding college educated trappers, who'll work for $9/hr is gonna be tough to do.

It's not just that I live in the city, and that's where the work is, I like what I do.
The fact that a part time second job has more than doubled my income, doesn't hurt.
But I make people's lives better, and that's a good feeling.

Eventually I'll drop my day job, which I have to go back to next week (my boss went on vacation), and go to full time critter control, but I'm not ready for that just yet.

A bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush.

Dennis,

They pay the starling "killer" that same starting wage... and they can't keep that position full, because the wage isn't commiserate to the amount of work.
Low man on the totem pole gets all the crap.

And I don't want to be him.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on August 15, 2008, 10:40 AM:
 
Now that, Mr. Higgins, is some good logic. Nice trophys too.
Carl
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on August 15, 2008, 01:31 PM:
 
""The coyote's social structure and behavior adapt to the current conditions within each particular environment, whether it is mountain, desert, plains or suburbia. Each individual coyote's behavior is governed by it's personal security level which is influenced by pressure from human activity, social status- which determines the role that coyote plays within each social season, type and availablity of food, and the aggressive or submissive nature of that coyotes personality. That information is necessary to understand""

Well said Rich! Nice trophy shots too!
pm
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 15, 2008, 01:55 PM:
 
It took years for me to win a trophy in motorcycle flattrack racing... I finally found a class no body else was entering.

Hey, isn't that a tennis player on one of them?

Krusty
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on August 15, 2008, 01:56 PM:
 
Yep, the Sultan is a very smart guy

That's why he is the Sultan
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 15, 2008, 02:36 PM:
 
Krusty, look a little closer. No tennis players there. That's a woman chasing a coyote with a broom.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 15, 2008, 02:46 PM:
 
Hey Rich,

When you call those urbanized coyotes and don't kill them, do you feed them? Maybe a Scooby snack or a half a chicken or something as a consolation prize for parting guests?

I only ask because there seems to be an assumption that calling a coyote in the 'burbs and not killing it lacks any negative or aversive condition factors. Now, admittedly, no one has been so bold as to infer that not getting shot at can be considered a positive reinforcement, but it is a lesser degree of negative than is, say, getting killed.

I know that, long about 6 pm for each of the next five nights, if the wife sticks her head out the backdoor and yells, "Dinner's ready!", and I go inside expecting to find a four-course meal, only to find an empty table, something's gonna happen. Chances are, by about the second night, I'm going to be doubting her sincerity and running for the table a bit more slowly. By the third night, I'll be pretty well convinced that she's a liar and not come in until I'm good and ready. By the fourth night, I'll tell her she's a damned liar, and not even so much as look at her until she brings my dinner TO me. And, by the fifth night, I'll have gone out to eat long before she even yelled and she can eat supper alone for all I care.

The point is: Coming to a call and NOT getting fed isn't a positive reinforcement. It's not really even a non-negative reinforcement. It's a disappointment, and even a coyote will eventually wise up to knowing he's being played.

I'm willing to bet that coyotes get disappointed on a fairly regular basis.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 15, 2008, 02:54 PM:
 
Hey Rich,

Those are really kool trophys. How long have they been on permanent display in your front yard?

Hey folks, I happen to know, there are a bunch more in the garage!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 15, 2008, 04:02 PM:
 
I think krusty is right! That is a damn fine collection of tennis trophies. I can't make out a coyote anywhere.

Lord, pygmies...blah blah etc.
 

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Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on August 15, 2008, 04:10 PM:
 
Well higgins i never knew you liked calling coyotes from on high. And is that a farm jack up on top of your truck for geting un stuck if need be? Complete with skining pole real nice.
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 15, 2008, 05:58 PM:
 
Rich,

WOW!!! Spectacularisimo! You & Tyler make a mighty fine team. I'm hoping my boys will grow up to be another Johnson & Johnson or Higgins & Higgins team.

I have ZERO to contribute on the coyote discussion at hand and rarely do I in other threads, but I am fully qualified to admire the fun you and your son must have shared together all these years with your common passion!!! I think that is the coolest thing in the world!!! I really admire the relationship that you and Tyler share.
 

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Posted by Scott F. (Member # 1961) on August 15, 2008, 09:11 PM:
 
That black 4x4 Toyota is the AZ death machine over the last 5 years. Between that Toyota and Vics vehicle- AZ has lost a serious amount of predators.

Anyone guess who drives that black Toyota?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 15, 2008, 09:23 PM:
 
Hey Danny,

If you wanted to add something, you could always tell Leonard about his new screwed up Sig line.....
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 15, 2008, 10:51 PM:
 
Nice bunch of coyotes Rich and a sweet looking truck as well.
Is that one days take of coyotes?
Do you haul them in the box on top? I'd be pissed if i got that rig covered with blood from the top down. I use a pickup and it gets messed enough.

Who was calling and who was shooting? What time of year? See what happens when you post pics of dead coyotes?

I've never been in a contest. Man that looks like a pile of trophies. congratulations.
How many contests is that from? any fights between father and son when one beats the other, or are you guys entered together? How many bloody contests did you win?

Anyway enough about you, but I really would like to hear some answers.

I'm not sure the what you think the core issue is in the urban coyote discussion.
If the question is "Does calling urban coyotes make them attack children", then I'm pretty sure we agree that is not the case.

But I maintain that calling and not killing will make them more comfortable around humans and that will lead to more human/coyote encounters. Each of these will be different, but if a small child is involved then it could turn out tragically.

As far as techniques I used, I called, used toller dogs, and snares. I could discharge a firearm and often did. Extreme caution and judgement was required becasue of a public safety issue of course, but also form a political safety point as well. Low key was the watchword and if no one from the general public knew I had taken a problem animal out, then I had done a good job.

In the urban environment it was easy with someprep work and scouting to set up in such a way that I was fairly certain what path a coyote would take to approach my calls. Fences and pathways, alleyways all help to direct the approach. It also let me choose a safe place to get the dirty deed done.

Snares were effective but had to be checked very often or in some cases watched so that if I caught Fido, I could deal with it. I honestly found the coyotes very responsive to the calls and not nearly as apprehensive about coming in as "wild" ones.

I haven't had the pleasure of protecting goats, but have had some suburban sheep predation complaints. Again not very hard to call and kill coyotes in that situation either.

How big was the goat ranch that you did you ADC work on. How long ago. Excuse my ignorance if I'm out on my geaography, but was that "Back East'? How were the coyote numbers.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 16, 2008, 01:43 AM:
 
Not sure who owns the truck now, but I know who owned it when that pic was snapped, in fact, it must have been Robb that took the photo?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on August 16, 2008, 02:45 AM:
 
RF, happen to be up late tonight and saw your post. You said again,

"But I maintain that calling and not killing will make them more comfortable around humans and that will lead to more human/coyote encounters. Each of these will be different, but if a small child is involved then it could turn out tragically."

We all understand what you maintain, but repeating it doesn’t make it any more true. Other than saying it, what evidence or logic do you have that this is true?

What positive experience is there for a coyote that comes to a call, does not get anything to eat or any other reward and gets frightened by an encounter with a human? What inducement is there to make him want to come to a similar call, or be more comfortable around humans? This human tricked him.

Further, have you stopped calling coyotes? Have you quit since you developed this theory that coyotes that come to a call and are not shot at are an increased danger to children? If you have ever called a coyote that you did not get a shot at, you increased the danger to children. That is equal to taking a photograph, and probably less frightening than photography if the coyote hears the camera.

If you are consistent, and really believe it is wrong to call coyotes and photograph them, you will quit calling coyotes yourself. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that you will shoot at every one, and that increases the danger factor to children. Have you quit?

If you haven’t quit calling coyotes, that is evidence to me that you don’t believe your own theory.

Or a fellow can get confused about a line of thinking some times and miss the obvious.

[ August 16, 2008, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
 

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Posted by Scott F. (Member # 1961) on August 16, 2008, 03:07 AM:
 

quote:

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Not sure who owns the truck now, but I know who owned it when that pic was snapped, in fact, it must have been Robb that took the photo?

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quote:

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tell Leonard about his new screwed up Sig line.....

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quote:

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Did that dang smithers steal my password?

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quote:

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.....but it sure would beat the heck out of dealing with coyote blood dripping out of my truck bed.

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I unfortunately got some blood on my Dodge Dakota's paint on the side of the bed when swinging a dead coyote into it and forgot to clean it off for a few days. It left a visible mark on the paint that can not be scrubbed off for some reason.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 17, 2008, 04:44 PM:
 
Until I hear of someone tossing Beggin' Strips to coyotes that were called in using "children playing" or "wounded toddler" sounds, I'm calling BS on the whole thing!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 17, 2008, 06:49 PM:
 
There have been recent reports of coyotes trying to run off with a couple of babies in front yards of a city. This is no surprise to me either. When a coyote is finally successful in having a human baby for lunch--------- Sad thing to say, but it will happen. Calling them up and taking pictures of them won't have anything to do with it though.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 17, 2008, 08:14 PM:
 
Red Frog,

Before getting into the meat and potatoes of this discussion, I do want to commend you for your ability to stay focused on the issue at hand rather than getting drug into the name calling ad nauseum. It's obvious this isn't your first internet rodeo. With only your posts within this thread for me to go on, the fact that you are able to avoid the trash talk speaks well of you. I also respect the fact that you had the balls to state your opinion here even though you knew you would face oppostion. That too speaks well of you. I just wanted to point that out but you're premise is still wrong. LOL!

Now, getting back to the issue at hand....

First, there is nothing in Higgin's last post that I don't adamantly agree with but I do want to expound further on one particular aspect of his post that I believe is important to this discussion. As Higgy correctly stated, some of these suburban/urban areas support incredible numbers of coyotes. That point is very important within the context of coyote attacks on humans. One must keep this in mind because without understanding the sheer number of coyotes in these areas, it's very easy to misunderstand the rarity of a coyote attack on humans as compared to the opportunity.

Remember the California fires and the difficulties the fire fighters had in saving homes due to the amount of heavy vegetation surrounding many of those homes? That footage was on national television and it explained a lot of the coyot issues too. The fact that many homes were threatened or destroyed by these fires should tell you just how easy it is for coyotes to survive in close proximity to people using that habitat. In addition to the rabbitat, there is an incredible amount of food available to support these heavy coyote populations. Not just natural prey but the food that is wasted by people and their pets. Despite the coyote's territorial behavior, the habitat, the large amount of food/prey, and the lack of human exploitation allows coyotes to absolutely thrive in these environments.

Again, it's important to understand that the attacks on humans are miniscule in relation to the opportunities that are available.

So now the question remains, why do some coyotes attack humans.

I really wish I had all the facts on these rare coyote attacks on humans so I didn't have to speculate as much on why I believe it may have happened. I do remember a large number of coyotes were removed in and around some of these attacks which was also telling.

I don't know if coyote health was an issue but a coyote suffering from distemper, parvo, or mange certainly could elicit abnormal behavior.

This topic is sensitive and certainly not a topic to dive into without considerable thought. I'm also cognizant of the fact that some idiot animal activist could be reading this as well. FWIW, animal activists are exempt from protection from name calling. With that in mind, I'll proceed.....

Assuming that most of these coyote attacks were on small children, assuming that these children were crying prior to being attacked, and assuming that these coyotes were totally healthy, I think there is a good chance that they simply killed enough pets over their lifetime that a small child was the next step. This situation would be much like a great white shark believing a swimmer was just another seal. A rare healthy mature coyote that has a bloodlust for killing pets and very little fear of humans could certainly make the next step to a little bigger prey.

I think Rich's suggestion that territorial behavior could play a roll in these attacks has some merit. Based on what I know about coyotes, I believe their natural predatory instincts plays a greater role in these attacks.

Red Frog: "But I maintain that calling and not killing will make them more comfortable around humans and that will lead to more human/coyote encounters. Each of these will be different, but if a small child is involved then it could turn out tragically."

After pointing out all the human/coyote interactions that occur on a daily basis with these urban/suburban coyotes, I'm surprised that you would still cling to that notion. Your premise makes no sense within the realm of these daily coyote activities surrounded by human activity. Again, if they weren't already preconditioned to human activity, they wouldn't be there. In the big scheme of things, calling coyotes and not shooting them has no impact on their fear of humans simply due to the amount of human contact they normally receive on a daily basis. Their presence in that environment has already confirmed their ability to adapt to human activity.

SAY "UNCLE" RED FROG or present a compelling argument to support your notion.

Haha!

Higgy also pointed out that these urban/suburban coyotes are still mostly nocturnal. Even though they have habituated to human activity, they still possess a degree of fear of humans or they wouldn't be nocturnal. Higgy is also right about the fact that coyotes have the ability to associate some human activity as positive while other human activity is regarded as negative.

I apologize to those who have read this before but as a case in point, during the fascinating urban/suburban coyote study in Chicago, one particular radio collared coyote was bedded down downwind of a golf course with people passing by all day and it wouldn't even raise it's head. When the researcher that collared the coyote was upwind, that coyote bolted to attention and started warning barking. that coyote obviously recognized the researcher's individual odor as a source of greater danger than all the other people that passed by that day.

Guys I'm telling you, this animal is far more sophisticated than you will ever know WHEN IT HAS TO BE.

~SH~

[ August 17, 2008, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 17, 2008, 08:45 PM:
 
Wiley,
That is one of the best explainations of city coyote behaviour I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on August 17, 2008, 09:26 PM:
 
Wiley, excellent post. A tour de force of coyote behaviour.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 17, 2008, 09:38 PM:
 
Yeah, gotta agree, Scott. Good post. Very logical, reasoned, understandable. You don't leave much; as they say in straight pool.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 17, 2008, 09:55 PM:
 
Scott,

Do not fall for outward appearances... this is a classic case of not judging a book by its cover.

Redfrog is not what he might seem upon the surface.

I can tell you, you are mistaken about him.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 18, 2008, 02:48 AM:
 
I was going to stay out of this dog & pony show, 'spesially since I'll be 'off-line' for about a week, real soon, moving to Az.

However........

It seems to me that if I'm driving down the happy highway & see a sign for "Juicy Grease Burgers", of course I'll pull in. If apon going to the door I find an empty building with a hairy guy inside, I'm going to be dissapointed & get back on the road. This isn't going to have to happen to many times and I'll start to ignore "Juicy Grease Burgers" signs.

So....... If urbane coyotes are responding to calling with no reward there should be some kind of reverse 'Pavlov's Dog' thing happining. Higgins could actually be training coyotes to avoid small crying children.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 18, 2008, 04:36 AM:
 

quote:

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I was going to stay out of this dog & pony show, 'spesially since I'll be 'off-line' for about a week, real soon, moving to Az.

---

Seems like I've heard this story before!

If you make it this time, give me a call when you get settled in!
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 18, 2008, 06:55 AM:
 
Tim; my last night was Sat. Cleaned out my locker & loaded my tool boxes into my truck. Going to visit with my evil daughter & spoil my grandkids for a few days in L.A.

R-E-T-I-R-E-D!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 18, 2008, 04:31 PM:
 
That post did not sit as well with me as the E-caller post did, Sheriff. You simply restated what was previously mentioned by others in a more tactful manner. IMO.

A fair question at this point would be... Does the Sheriff have any, "Real Stories of the Coyote Patrol in Suburbia"?

I don't think that territoriality in urban coyotes is as much of a problem as one might think. 8 weeks out of the year, maybe...
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 18, 2008, 06:02 PM:
 
Smithers,

To me, it's a given, that the better the pickin's the less likely coyotes, or any animal, are to be territorial.

If there's enough for everyone, you don't need to guard it.

The estimated coyote population, in the Seattle Metro area, is around a thousand.
And there are around 595,000 people.
The square area... is 8,186 mi.

So we're looking at 5950 people per coyote, and ONE coyote per 8.186 square miles!
And this is in a city where coyote numbers are high.

That's a lot of resources, and fair amount of space, and not much cause for territoriality outside of a very short seasonal window.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 18, 2008, 06:56 PM:
 
Your math is off a bit, Krusty. One little zero makes a big difference.
Martha Grinder's Doctoral dissertation was entitled "Ecology of Coyotes in Tucson" and is very informative to any of you that are interested. Michael McCasland and some other members of South Western Varmint Callers helped out some.

No study that I have read indicate that coyotes establish tradtional territories in an urban or suburban environment. It isn't necessary. They DO aggressively defend and expel intruders from their core/den area and that is when the majority of health and safety incidents occur. AZG&F has no estimate of the numbers of coyotes in the metro Phoenix area. They do estimate that thousands reside in the suburban areas. Makes sense.
I was told by a cop that they occasionally see coyotes downtown among the skyscrapers in the early morning hours when there is no traffic.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 18, 2008, 07:31 PM:
 
Krusty, I was just doing a little housekeeping. Clearing the air, so to speak, for those that may not know that "most" coyotes don't maintain a strict territory in the 'burbs as they would elsewhere.
Fish heads and pizza crusts!

The coyote is VERY nocturnal throughout the year around here but I have noticed that they venture out much more during daylight hours coinciding with pup rearing.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 18, 2008, 08:01 PM:
 
Rich,

Math isn't my strong suit, help me out, where did I mess up?

I got this awesome spell checker, underlines misspelled words in red... but there ain't no math checker!

No matter what, it's not many coyotes, over a fairly large area, interacting with lots and lots of peaceful people, in a relatively peaceful way.

Oh hey, I found a photo of the coyote from my urban tolling experience... on a community blog coyote watch page!



That's gotta be him, other end of the golf course, up the hill through the greenbelt, via the mountain biking trails... less than a mile as the crow flies... with those white circles under his eyes!

It's not Tucson!

Krusty
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 18, 2008, 08:33 PM:
 
Smithers,

The above photo is dated Aug. 5, 9:42 am.

Most are posted very soon after sighting.




July 23, 10:31 am


July 7, 8:01 am


July 5, posted 10:14 pm (*but the light's not right for that time of night)


May 23 9:12 pm

Rich,

Help me out with this one too, the last photo, is that the tolling dog, in the first?

He's "hurt", and limping, right around when my dog tackled the coyote.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 18, 2008, 08:50 PM:
 
Krusty, what great photos. I really enjoy seeing the variations in markings and color of coyotes in the same areas. Beautiful animals. I wonder how the pic was taken of the coyote in the last photo? Time was 9:12 pm in May. It would have been dark but a laid up coyote wouldn't have tripped a trailcam. Any info on that?
Math check? I like it. 595,000 people divided by 1000 coyotes is 595 people per coyote. Not 5950.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 18, 2008, 08:51 PM:
 


This is (looks like) "Fuzz", who I found eyeballing a raccoon in a cage one morning.

Here's what the photographer has to say (and what the urban ADC man is REALLY up against!).

This little coyote is a regular visitor in our yard; this picture was taken right outside my home office window. Since he’s been hanging around, we don’t have a problem with rats at the bird feeder–which also means the variety of birds has increased. That’s not just the coyote, of course, but he fills out a tiny eco-system in our backyard wildlife sanctuary and things are improved with his presence. We live over by Lincoln Park, and welcome our coyote co-habitants. It’s all good!

This photo shows how I gave him his name;



That's him, totally casual...
(*Edit: Oops I must have followed the blogger's lead, that's not a he, I believe it's a she.)


I use this, and another more active (without photos), to some extent, to locate places to try and call coyotes, or to track patterns in their movement near my trapping jobs.

(**Edit)Rich,

Yeah isn't the digital age something, none of these photos are mine, they are from "regular (city) folk".

But I'm getting to where I recognize them like I would my buddie's dogs.

Krusty

[ August 18, 2008, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 18, 2008, 08:55 PM:
 
Krusty, the first, second and last coyotes may be the same animal. Markings, including the white ring, and color are close enough. Are you calling a coyote a tolling dog? I don't understand.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 18, 2008, 08:58 PM:
 
LOL More great photos, Krusty.
Nice people with big hearts and little understanding are very dangerous to sportsmen and wildlife managers.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 18, 2008, 09:21 PM:
 
Smithers: "That post did not sit as well with me as the E-caller post did, Sheriff."

Oh well!

Smithers: "You simply restated what was previously mentioned by others in a more tactful mannner."

Haha! ah...ok?

So what's your point Smithers? If two different people reach the same conclusions based on seperate observations and seperate research, they shouldn't agree or it might appear to be plagerism? LOL!

Do you honestly think I would restate someone else's opinion with nothing to back my own opinion?

Smithers: "A fair question at this point would be... Does the Sheriff have any, "Real Stories of the Coyote Patrol in Suburbia"?"

Yeh, when I was in LA, I watched a coyote look both ways before he crossed the highway.

~SH~

[ August 18, 2008, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 18, 2008, 09:29 PM:
 
Rich,

No I am not calling a coyote a tolling dog.

Earlier in this thread, I eluded to a story I have to tell, but I was in a hurry to go do a trapping job.
"Urban Tolling; and exercise in surprise!"

My pit bull, and that first coyote had a little go 'round... not so much tolling as a coyote getting his ass whipped, and my stupid dog chasing him all over the PARK trying to give him some more (and treein a 'coon after the coyote lost him, and havin' a good ol time, while I freaked out, thrashing through the jungle after them!)

100 pounds of stupid, in an 80 pound dog!

Maybe I'll tell the whole story sometime, but I dunno, being that he is what he is, and he was doin' what he was, it could open me up to fire.
Honestly though, in three years, that's the first time he ever didn't listen.

Ya know how ol' Danny B. loves that "oh shit look" this guy was full of it, right before Bullit ran him over... the coyote fully didn't expect the kind of instant foot speed he could create, or that he wouldn't back down from his aggressive "mock charge".

The one good thing about the whole ordeal, is the coyote learned a big lesson.



And being the alpha male of a group of six (reported?), it will be interesting to see how it trickles down, if at all?

Krusty
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 18, 2008, 10:06 PM:
 
Ok, I was just confused. Normal state.
Like Wiley E. I'm a little gunshy of repeating things many times, but some of them are just worth it. I've posted before that the "Urban Alpha" in my video, together with the female, had ripped up the back end of a 135 lb. Rhodesian Ridgeback so badly that the dog had to be destroyed because the dogs backyard was adjacent to the thick growth of oleanders that the coyotes had chosen for a den site. On youtube there is an interesting clip of two coyotes taking on and running off a grey wolf near their den. Pitbulls are badass but two coyotes working both ends are too.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 19, 2008, 09:08 PM:
 

quote:

---

So what's your point Smithers? If two different people reach the same conclusions based on seperate observations and seperate research, they shouldn't agree or it might appear to be plagerism? LOL!

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My point was that you simply restated what others had said in a more tactful manner.
I didn't insinuate that you plagiarized anyone. Or that you were not speaking from your own personal experience. If that's what you took from it. Oh well!
~the Hall Monitor
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 20, 2008, 10:48 AM:
 
Have you guys chased off Redfrog?
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 20, 2008, 02:45 PM:
 
Rich,

Here's my thinking on identification.

Picture #1;


This is the alpha male of the Longfellow Creek group, posted very recently.

Photo #6


Is a "hurt coyote", laying up, for the same couple days my dog did...
_____________________________________________

Photos #2 & #3, are of the same coyote from two different angles.





I believe he's Longfellow's son, outcast, and now (3yrs old?) living with the Alki Beach group (a few miles NW of me). And the coyote I called in the "Counting Coup" story.
_______________________________________________

In further study, I believe the last photos (not including the pups, who I couldn't figure out where they were) are two animals





This coyote is south of me, outside my area of knowledge (4+ miles?).
His dark fuzzy appearance is similar to the last coyote.
_____________________________________________





This last one, could, like the first two, be related to the coyote above, living in a different group.
She's part of the Lincoln Park/Fauntleroy group, who lives some 5 miles SW of me on the beach (separated from the Alki group by a bluff).

That is definitely the coyote that was sitting looking at my cage trap, a few blocks from the park... I recognize the scar on her left wrist.
________________________________________________

The last one, sitting down, was filmed by the local news crew, on their way to do a story on coyotes!
How's THAT for credibility!

He's likely to be Poppa Fuzz, I'd never seen him before, but he could be the big dude who's been paralleling dog walkers in Lincoln Park?
________________________________________________

I have the advantage, I know the approximate location of the photos, but I appreciate your thoughts.

It's also worth noting, that I live on a penisula, so as this coyote population grows they'll have to (just like wild coyotes) have to disperse through areas already inhabited by other coyotes, and in the case of Longfellow and Jr. coyotes from separate groups will look alike.

Krusty (no room for little wavie bastard)
 

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Posted by Redfrog (Member # 3068) on August 20, 2008, 05:42 PM:
 
Leonard I'm still here. I was waiting for everyone else to have a turn.
I was also waiting for a reply from Rich Higgins,about his pics and Smithers about his coyote feast.

KK I have some room here.
is this the little wavie bastard you were looking for?
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 20, 2008, 06:29 PM:
 
Smithers: "My point was that you simply restated what others had said in a more tactful manner. I didn't insinuate that you plagiarized anyone. Or that you were not speaking from your own personal experience. If that's what you took from it. Oh well!"

Ok! I guess I didn't get why you felt the need to point that out? Perhaps you had higher expectations and I let you down then cut you off at the knees for pointing it out?? If so, nebah mind!

Steve Martin: "Some people have a way with words and some people NOT....HAVE....WAY?" (meaning me).

Thanks for the spell check on "plagiarism". My bad!

~SH~
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 20, 2008, 08:34 PM:
 
RedFrog, I decided after my last lilac bath that I was going to start a Vegan diet and possibly stop hunting altogether. You should try the lilac bath. It's mind altering...

SH, I felt the need to point it out because some were kneeling at the altar over the post.
Just me being a dick...

Cut off at the knees!?
"Tis but a flesh wound!"
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 20, 2008, 09:01 PM:
 
A few years ago, I took a video camera to Cherry Creek Resevoir to call and video coyotes. I was there right before sun-up and had no takers in 3 stands despite the "mucho el sighno". So I packed up the camera and headed to the truck because a bunch of joggers and bike riders began showing up.

As I was loading the truck I spotted 2 coyotes running back into the dam area via a small trail leading from the tract home neighborhood.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 21, 2008, 07:04 AM:
 
Danny, when I lived in Denver Cherry Creek Reservoir was remote. I took Tyler and his buddies fishing there. I would walk out a ways and call while they fished.

So how would you classify those coyotes coming from the neighborhood? Urban? Suburban? Country hicks visiting city relatives?
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 21, 2008, 08:47 AM:
 
Smithers: "SH, I felt the need to point it out because some were kneeling at the altar over the post."

That's fine. I appreciate those who take the road less traveled and think for themselves.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 22, 2008, 11:35 PM:
 
I'm not all that smart. I think a coyote is a coyote. These coyotes were born in the sticks and found easy food in the 'hood. Pretty simple if you ask me.
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 22, 2008, 11:39 PM:
 
Scott, you impress me more every post. Being smart is one thing, you know how to do it and be humble.(Not bowing at the alter)Well, humblish anyway!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 23, 2008, 10:54 AM:
 
Memo to Scott; don't let all this praise go to your head!

Observation: Krusty has killed (I forget?) one coyote in five or six years, and yet he comes across as a hell of a lot more knowledgeable on the subject of "urban coyotes" than REDFROG, who apparently began his coyote career about the same time, but claims vastly more experience and authority?

All of which tells me that you don't always need credentials, on the Internet. Pretty pathetic. (not you, Scott)

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 23, 2008, 02:11 PM:
 
Leonard,

It's actually two coyotes that I've killed, in the last year... you're correct though, in that it did take a number of years to get the ball rolling.

Krusty
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on August 23, 2008, 02:46 PM:
 
Krusty,

You finally got a coyote! Congrats!

I've been gone from the board for a while.

Last I knew you were still trying.

Post a link to the thread or threads of your kills.I'm too lazy to go through the archives.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on August 23, 2008, 04:51 PM:
 
MULE,

Yeah I finally got one, then like everyone expected, coyotes started coming like the opening of the flood gates.

My shooting, and my ability to keep my cool, have gone to heck though.

Despite calling and shooting at a dozen or so, between my brother and I, I've yet to only kill a second one.

The story of the first one, is almost as odd of a journey as getting it...

Lance first posted this thread, getting some of the details mixed up...
Followed up by Tripp's posting of this thread...

My time to get on a computer was very limited, pretty much to the time I would take when I broke from hunting, for lunch.
I called Leonard, to straighten out some of the details, and he posted this thread.

Tripp took up a a donation, which helped me pay for the taxidermist.
One of these days I gotta take some time, and go pick 'em up.

Ninthinning kicked in, with a call auction, in which Cindy Traps got herself a sweet call for a sweet deal, which was a sweet thing to do.

Eventually, I got back to town, got my camera developed, and told the story.

The story of the second coyote (or, more correctly, the thread it's in), and my life at that point in time, were a disaster.
It was enough of a let-down, I haven't picked up a call and a rifle together since.
So, it's not high on my recommended reading list, and I won't be providing a link to it.

Krusty

P.S. Leonard,

The neighbor kid knows everything about dinosaurs, but I don't think he's killed any yet.

The fact that I live in a city, and I don't think they have any of them in Way Northern Canucktica, I'd be the more likely to actually have any experience with metro-urban coyotes.
 

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Posted by Bopeye (Member # 907) on August 24, 2008, 06:04 AM:
 
Here ya go Mule. Here's the story on the second coyote. It was an awesome read.

http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001069#000000

[ August 24, 2008, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Bopeye ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 25, 2008, 09:42 AM:
 
Leonard: "Memo to Scott; don't let all this praise go to your head!

Don't worry, I won't!

I prefer to fly below radar but I happen to enjoy a good discussion and/or debate on coyotes. For me, self confidence and self satisfaction in this game doesn't come from what others might think of me or anything I post, it comes from reaching for and achieving a higher degree of success in coyote hunting and/or applying what I have learned from numerous failures.

~SH~

[ August 25, 2008, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 25, 2008, 12:31 PM:
 
Wiley E,
I am sitting here like an old cripple. Both knee's hurt like anything. Arthritis I suppose. I have some advice for you young feller. Don't ever get old, because if you do you will live to regret it.
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on August 25, 2008, 06:20 PM:
 
Is the "ADC Coyote Group" a spin off from AC/DC?

I really like totally dig Dirty Tricks, man.
Carl
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 25, 2008, 07:49 PM:
 
Well, since we're on the subject now,

What's your favorite heavy metal song?!?

My personal favorite from AC/DC has to be Hells Bells. It was to begin with, but then my neighbor told me how they used it repeatedly and loud to drive insurgents in Iraq nuts by playing it 24/7 through loudspeakers in Fallujah or someplace like that. You gotta love it when the Army uses your favorite song as a key part of psy-ops.

Oh, I'm sorry. Were we talking about coyotes?

Thanks, Bo

[ August 25, 2008, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 25, 2008, 07:52 PM:
 

quote:

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P.S. Leonard,

The neighbor kid knows everything about dinosaurs, but I don't think he's killed any yet.

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