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Author
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Topic: Why coyotes scat mark?
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted April 16, 2008 07:10 PM
This was brought up in another forum and I would like to hear some views from some of the others. Whether it be out of spite(like at a trap set or old stand) or for territorial(road and trails) purposes,Im looking forward to the replys.
edit: for this pic from one of my articles, thought it fit,lol.
[ April 16, 2008, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
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posted April 16, 2008 07:45 PM
In the case where you find where one coyote stopped to poop, I don't think it means anything other than the bugger just plain had to poop. I think the photo above is just that. What really perks my interest is when I find a spot where there is quite a large pile of poop. Old poop that has already turned white, and fairly fresh poop on top. I usually find these at an intersection of trails, and every coyote that comes by either poops or pees there to mark it as his territory. Mighty fine place to set a few traps don't ya think? Now when a coyote digs up my trap and poops on it, I think he is grinning and giving me the one finger salute.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 16, 2008 07:50 PM
Hey Steve. Besides the obvious reason that sometimes they just have to poop, the reasons are just about as diverse as everything else about coyotes.
Scat deposits and urine marking have more than one function. I call them graffitti because they can be territory boundary markings or they can just be a "Kilroy was here" social kinda thing or as Ralls, Kleiman and Ewer, independantly, in three seperate studies, concluded that scent marking is often only incidental to territorial marking, that the primary purpose is to provide the resident coyote with a familiar odor in order to increase it's sense of security. I have lots of video of coyotes coming in close, confused by sights, scents and sounds that they don't understand and squatting and dumping. I have a short video clip of a fellow that used to post here as wolverine@work that shows him kneeling down beside his truck that we had parked next to a right of way fence and explaining to the camera that when we returned from a stand we found the still steaming pile three feet from the truck door. Tyler and I have had coyotes approach our stand from behind, on our entrance trail, and leave a steaming pile in view of us. Some of these incidents have to be territorial markers and some are probably morale or security boosts,
Joe Melton, who was on the AZG&F Commision and did the trapping for the depts. biological studies told me that coyotes that come across scat that has the remains of food that the coyote knows is available in abundance such as mesquite beans, melons, grapes or carrion will backtrack that coyote to the source and as long as they honor any territory that they enter with a direct line in and out that the resident coyotes usually tolerate them.
Common travel routes near these sources often have large numbers of scat especially if there is a natural corridor such as a road along a canal or mesh fence or other barrier.
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Leonard
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posted April 16, 2008 08:58 PM
MY theory is that a coyote dumps on a road, or two track with a lot more frequency than random, just gotta go. A coyote has a sense of a road as an entirely natural feature of the environment. Roads have always been there, as far as they are concerned. They use roads and they know and understand that humans use them, too. My opinion is that they consider a road to be a natural feature and a possible natural boundary, just like a creek or a wash or a crop field...any thing. It simplifies things. Why have his territorial boundary fifty feet along the side of the road when the road is so much more observable and convenient? Makes sense to me. Not always, but frequently. And, I think they are much more inclined to leaver a scat right in the middle of that road as a visual statement. Sure, they have a good nose and leave urine scent posts many other places, but I see too much scat on roads that I believe it's deliberate.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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posted April 16, 2008 09:05 PM
Back in the days before Computers and I was just looking for a way to extend my hunting seasons, I had a wild thing happen regarding coyote poop. I was hunting a property that I began my coyote calling experience on. I was driving down one of the levees going to my next set/setup/stand/blind. As I was traveling about 30 MPH, I noticed a coyote running between the levee and the river. I sped up to get closer and was trying to figure out how I could get a shot at him, as he was traveling on the right side of the truck. As I closed the distance and began to retrieve my rifle so I could shut down, dismount and take the shot, he crossed the levee and began an allout run across the 60-80 acre pasture out my left window. I got shut down, stuck the rifle out the window and began to take a lead for a running away shot. He slammed on the brakes and hunkered up about 150 yards out to take a dump. The 25 grain bullet from my 17 hit him through the spine in mid dump. I have often wondered since the internet began to enlighten me: Was he marking his retreat or did I run the crap out of him?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 16, 2008 09:24 PM
No, that has been observed and talked about. I have killed two coyotes that knew I was there and knew they were in danger, yet took the time to take a shit before hitting the afterburners. Neither of them were able to even straighten up before I hammered them.
I have heard it said that coyotes deliberately defecate before a chase by hounds, and female coyotes are a lot more prone to do it than males. Might have something to do with feeling less sluggish? Makes sense to me?
Good hunting. LB
[ April 16, 2008, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted April 17, 2008 07:52 AM
I have seen coyotes 'empty' out when a set of grey hounds was sent. Dont know if they were male or female though.
I like Higgins' statement;
"...... the reasons are just about as diverse as everything else about coyotes.
Scat deposits and urine marking have more than one function. I call them graffitti...".
So yes, I think it is more than a 'gotta go' type thing. What it is, I don't know. Other factors would help determine the meaning of the graffiti. For instance, a fresh pile at a trap set with no dug trap may mean something totally different than a fresh pile at a dug trap.
One morning I found a fresh pile in the floor of my shop....I have wondered the meaning of that one for a while.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 17, 2008 08:10 AM
Good topic Steve. I am interested as well.
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted April 17, 2008 08:30 AM
The house I now live in had been vacant for quite some time except for a brief period right before I bought the place, intermittently occupied before that.
When I first moved in there wasn't a turd in sight, that changed after I started cleaning things up outside and mowing a larger area than the previous owner.
The first "welcome to the neighborhood" sign that I had was a pile in the cat food bowl right outside the front door.
Then piles in the driveway.
The freshest (that I am aware of) occurred one day when I walked to the mailbox and mailed a letter. I returned to the house and a short time later - only a matter of minutes - I heard the mailman stop. I went to get the mail and was rewarded with the sight of a fresh pile at the base of the mailbox centered in a track in the dust I had left earlier. Gross looking, too. Wild cherries...
Coincidence or chance droppings? Amazingly precise placement for that, I think.
I killed the first coyote here on Sept. 28th of that year and I killed either 16 or 18 coyotes within 100 yards of my house the first 3 years I was here. My sidewalk and driveway have been clean ever since.
There is a sunken roadway about a 1/2 mile away that flattens out at the crest of a hill. At the crest the road makes a 90 degree turn and is almost the highest point around, no longer sunken. Two field roads intersect at this point.
This corner is marked almost daily.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted April 17, 2008 07:07 PM
Kelly, I started this after seeing yours at OK's board. It strikes and intrest and I wanted to hear from some of the other seasoned guys that dont go there.
edit:to fix
[ April 17, 2008, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 17, 2008 07:22 PM
Good Deal Steve. Me too.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 17, 2008 08:03 PM
Here's something to ponder. IF coyotes and fox deposit scat in prominant places, (When Scott and I visited Cal in Wy. we saw where the coyotes deposited there scat up high on sage brush and I saw a coyote turd balanced precisely on the lower strand of a barbwire fence here in Az. and one of my favorites, Tyler and I found a fox turd placed smack in the middle of a coyote skull out in the desert) AND some biologists believe that they do this to make it more easily detectable by other coyotes or foxes AND Joe Melton said that coyotes can backtrack the scatmaker to the place of interest THEN I think it's possible to imagine a number of causes and effects just from pooping.
IF they poop to leave a calling card, Kilroy was here, it can possibly be done just to let other coyotes know who is in the area. Other group members can forward track as well as backtrack. One purpose of howling is to announce presence or location. Scat deposits do the same. Elevating them or placing them in prominant places does that more efficiently. Make sense?
They always poop.
They always do.
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted April 17, 2008 08:29 PM
Sure does. As another Guru once said about coyotes, Nothing is graven in stone.
I think fox, (kit and grays) poop on things more than coyotes do? You know, low sparse cover, and then there is a rock that stands out? I tend to see fox scat on those rocks. Judging by the size, I say fox, I don't know if pup coyotes would do that sort of thing?
But, you know, if you have ever taken a dog for a walk, they look for the perfect spot. I just think coyotes see a road and think that's a perfect spot to take a dump. I'm speaking of dirt roads primarily.
Now, what this all means and how to apply it to hunting coyotes? Well, I am observant of coyote scat, make mental notes of where I see it and when I see a lot of it; I like it. As the trappers say; see sign, set trap. See a lot of sign, set more traps.
If I see a lot of coyote poop in the two tracks, I am very encouraged and want to hunt right there.
The only caviat. You don't know if they are marking their after dark hunting grounds, or their bedroom locations?
Good hunting. LB
[ April 17, 2008, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 17, 2008 08:54 PM
Well Leonard, my best guess is that their bedroom isn't in the middle of a two track. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) But, you know that they travel the easy routes, two tracks, cow paths ,dirt bike ruts, and paved roads like the one in Steve's pic. As mentioned before the animations show coyotes following other coyotes trails so it's no surprise to find several scats in certain areas. Probably for the same reason that they poop in intersections, because they cross trails, more cross trails at intersections more scat. Which is why you like to call near those areas. But the same applies to Steve's pic. Why would the coyote lay the scat in that particular place. Possibly it crossed the trail of another? Possibly a coyote it was tracking turned off there? Either way, you know that a coyote was at that location and may still be within hearing and if the coyote left it as a comminque it expected something to be in the area to get the message which makes for a fairly high confidence stand in the general area. waddaya think?
They always poop.
They always do.
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Leonard
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posted April 17, 2008 09:15 PM
Well, I think you took me too literally. I meant close by, adjacent, that type of thing, and I had in mind, crossing the roads not using them as paths, which they do all the time, but I see more coyotes crossing the road in washes, than using it as a path. I believe in some areas there is a distinct difference between hunting grounds that they use at night, out in the flats, and in the morning they are headed up an arroyo to sack out at the base of the foothills where there is a lot more cover.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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RagnCajn
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posted April 17, 2008 09:32 PM
All this knowledge on here and I, a nobody in the coyote field has to come up with an answer on Steve's Picture.
Any self respecting Coyote Scatologist knows that poop in the picture came from a Female coyote in Estrus.
She didn't want the high grasses tickling her pooty poo.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 17, 2008 09:37 PM
Thats a heck of an astute answer for a rookie! I like it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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posted April 17, 2008 10:20 PM
Why thank ya Leonard. Maybe one day I can be BonaFide too. Maybe we can get Lance to write an article about high Grass Poo evasion tactics employed by Female in Estrus Coyotes for Scott to critique.
On edit: Oh Crap, literally, I just had a brain fart and thought of something that may revolutionize the calling industry. It is not an estrus chirp that has been heard, It is the sound of an estrous female that did not find the road. That is the sound of her giggling as the high grass tickled her when she squated.
[ April 17, 2008, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted April 18, 2008 05:17 AM
Interesting topic and I've learned from you all.
I have one anecdote to add to the pile. When I first started calling coyotes I had one charge to within a foot in tall grass where I was mouse squeeking. It scared both of us and I missed a bow shot at the departing critter.
Exactly one week later I hunkered in the same spot and called with the same sound. I heard small sounds of something circling in the grass but nothing definitive to me. After 20 minutes I quit and headed down the trail I'd used on approach. 40 yards from where I'd hunkered to call was a pile of coyote droppings steaming in the cold morning air, dead center in a boot track I'd made on the way in.
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Rich Higgins
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posted April 18, 2008 06:26 AM
Okanagan, that is why we call the same areas with the same sound but we place our shooter straight downwind BEYOND a ridgeline or mesquite tangle that the coyote WILL use to get downwind without exposing itself. If possible though we will change the stand location just a little and use all of the sounds that we use in a different sequence.. The computer animations of the gps collared coyotes that we called to showe that they always investigated the calling spot later. It also revealed that when we left the calling area the coyotes followed us out and we didn't have a clue that they did so.
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Rich Higgins
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posted April 18, 2008 06:33 AM
Randy, I don't know if your pooty poo answer solves that puzzle or not but it certainly was fine snake oil. You may not be fide yet but you are definitely bona.
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
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posted April 18, 2008 07:12 AM
My thoughts are a lot like Leonard's. Find a bunch of turds on a short stretch of road and make a stand. I have high confidence under these situations.
I think they smell something different that triggers the bowel movement. It could be where another coyote has left scent from it's body, piss, or turd. It could be from a human or from lure at a trap. None the less, they feel the need to take a crap. Kinda like a hot cup of coffee in the morning or a fresh dip of tobacco.
When you have a dug-up trap with turd, who is to say which event occured first? And when the turd is on the sprung trap, could the trap already have been sprung when the coyote came along?
Randy
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted April 18, 2008 07:59 PM
Rich, that coyote taught me more about changing sounds, locations and times than any other single critter in my life. I called him four times that I saw him over two years. I was going to grad school at the time and he was giving me grad school tutoring on the side in coyoteology. He was big and unusually dark, so easy to pick out when he was with other coyotes or recognize alone. His reponse/reaction to my calling was different each time as he learned more. I could have killed him easily with a rifle three of the times but he seemed to know bow range.
I have heard animals following me sometimes, faint sounds in dry grass, crusted snow, etc. Sometimes it is a cougar and I can find tracks to verify it, but more often I find fresh coyote tracks if there is a tracking surface. Your collared tracking study is fascinating to me, confirming much of what I'd suspected but didn't know.
IMO they are smart and curious, and those two factors account for a lot of their behaviors. From high glassing spots I've watched them sneak up to golfers and watch them without being seen, and watched one circle an elk hunter on his stand. He never knew the coyote was there.
I watched one coyote trot to the point of a ridge sticking into a housing tract and bark or howl at dawn, apparently just to get every dog in a half mile radius to bark at once. He would sit there with his head cocked to one side listening till the dogs finally quieted down enough to hear him, then bark to set them off again. If that wasn't for pure fun, I have no idea what it is about but have seen similar from coyotes in two countries.
They are the most interesting animal I know.
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csmithers
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posted April 19, 2008 09:01 AM
Steamers and pee'ers. Some shit on the way in and others stare at you and pee.
Extreme excitement can sometimes trigger the urge to pee or poop.
Most of the scat I find looks more "placed" than random. I believe that most turds have a meaning, it's more than, Gotta go Gotta go.
Most everything that animals do is for a reason, inborn or learned behavior. Why would crapping be any different.
Racoons relieve on fallen trees and deer dump in their beds, bears shit in the woods and birds on our heads.
As far as Steve's picture goes. There could have been a deer or squirrel that was mashed on the road and the the coyote liked the stench of rot and poo'ed in that spot. Who knows?
[ April 19, 2008, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted April 19, 2008 09:17 PM
Rich, I should have added that I am envious of all the coyote watching and coyote studies you get to do. They are a fascinating critter.
[ April 19, 2008, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
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