This is topic Why coyotes run in to decoy dogs and not coyote decoys? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on March 07, 2008, 08:55 AM:
This was posted at OPHA board but i know some folks that dont go there much and I would like to hear some other replies by you guys. This is intresting to me. Here is the post and my reply to it.
[quote=Jay Nistetter]Hi guys. That bit of video was all I could manage while using the decoy for the first time. Used the decoy on 4 stands (I think) and called in a coyote on 2 of them. We called in 3 other coyotes but were not using the decoy at those set-ups.
More than once did everyone in our group scan for coyotes and twitch when they saw the decoy even though they KNEW it was there. Glad nobody shot it. I was a bit concerned placing it near any road that a passerby might see and take a pot shot at it with us hiding in the bushes.
I will be using the Lone Howler again tomorrow but was told to leave the chicken at home this time. Hopefully I will get some video of a live coyote and the decoy together on film. The problem with decoys such as this is that it makes real coyotes stop and look rather than stop an come a runnin'. I've never had a coyote run in to challenge a coyote decoy but I see it happen over and over by the fellows using real dogs to lure coyotes in.
[/quote]
Jay, Do you think the lack of aggression toward the decoy is because the decoy hasnt really made any moves or acts toward the coyote. Decoy dogs do run to the coyotes and when they aren't,you know like if you have a dog that isnt trained, they look in sort of a vulnerable state just walking around or whimpering at the sight of the coyote. This could be a real topic here.
Edit: to edit misplaced words
[ March 07, 2008, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2008, 09:57 AM:
Coyotes would likely not have much interest in a real decoy dog right now either. Mating season is over now, and coyotes would be less agressive toward a stranger in their territory. Now after the pups are born this spring, I think the real coyotes will act differently when they see Jay's decoy. Placing that decoy within a quarter mile of a den site, and then howling a time or two would likely cause some exciting action.
Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on March 07, 2008, 10:09 AM:
Does anyone have info on when the coyotes start digging thier dens after the mating season ceases?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2008, 10:37 AM:
Coyotes will often use the same den for several years. Here in western Iowa, I think the coyotes will start cleaning out old dens and modifying badger holes for new dens around April fools day? I ain't sure about that, but I'm betting that I am pretty dang close. I hope Cal or Wiley E will chime in here.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 07, 2008, 11:20 AM:
To be honest, this question was answered to my satisfaction years ago. A coyote decoy doesn't do a thing for the hunter, besides getting the coyote to check up and evaluate the situation, and you can do that with a bark, which doesn't weigh as much as the clumsy decoy. The problem is that, (if they can see it from a distance) then you might not have an ideal shot opportunity?
ONLY ONCE, did I have a coyote charge in on a coyote decoy, and it was when I was playing a combo sound of chicken distress with coyote growls and yips. Yeah, I killed it, but he could have rushed in and disappeared into the brush before I was able to get on him....which almost happened! Every other time I called in a coyote and saw him, he was peaking over brush, or stopped dead in his tracks and acting very spooky. I do not believe they are all that territorialy aggressive when you are using prey distress. I didn't evaluate with howls alone, but that seems like watching paint dry. Maybe Higgins could shed some light on this for a couple reasons. Number one, he has a lot more patience and frequently, doesn't even kill them. And, on the other hand, I know that he uses an ecclectic mix of sounds most of the time, so just howls and responses from close in animals before he starts with other sounds is rare, since the possibility exists that you accidently kick out some of the close ones even before sitting down. Ideally, you want to call coyotes that are neither too far away nor too close. I like to see a response within the 1.5 to 7 minute time frame. Maybe since he is such a well known professional writer these days, he would rather be paid for his opinion? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on March 07, 2008, 11:51 AM:
My experience with decoys is much the same as Leonard's. I had a few actually run the other direction. Quit using them years ago.
I have never used the life-size coyote decoy, however I would expect the results would't be much different.
Most people who think they need a decoy also believe they need an AR. You know. Just in case 9 or 10 come charging into the stand at the same time. LOL
Randy
Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on March 07, 2008, 12:02 PM:
Leonard
In my limited experience the decoy dog I use,during periods of the year do not bring in more coyotes , actually less.
Your absolutley right about that some people with better trained dogs may have another opinion, but I do it just for mixing it up a little , she (the dog) is a lot of fun to have along if my option is hunting alone.so far shes run off a couple and made others lock up way out there,Im hoping that she will bring them in during the denning season for some filming.just pictures for those of you about to flame me for hunting in the summer. I dont , but I still call and shoot with a camera.Althogh I am always armed in case things get out of hand. I still laugh about Cal,s post about the coyotes attacking one of his dogs "they won the dog fight but we won the gun fight" I have seen a lot of plastic decoys and frankly dont think I would carry one to the field. when i first started calling just a few years back I would carry a call and a rifle . These days I have a rifle sometimes a shotgun as well a stool ,bipod e-caller a jib what the hell happened . I must be a victim of good advertising.
Rich
thanks for the response i didnt mean to get the thread sideways it just popped into my head while I was reading your post, I have several areas that the coyotes seem to use each year and for denning ,I am aware that they can reuse dens and dont all make new ones but I wasnt sure about the timing. It would sure be nice to get footage of them digging and cleanig ect.
thanks
skoal
[ March 07, 2008, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: skoal ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2008, 01:30 PM:
Skoal,
I haven't seen anything wrong with the words in your posts, not yet anyway. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Leonard,
You are correct about those professional writers. CDog 911 don't post much at all since he wrote that magazine article awhile back. LOL
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 07, 2008, 01:35 PM:
I saw a den that was cleaned out last Saturday in SE NM....the same day I killed a rattlesnake.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 07, 2008, 01:48 PM:
Damn Kelly you really get around!
I'm jealous.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 07, 2008, 02:38 PM:
Boy, if that don't fit! Southeast New Mexico, Roswell and a tinfoil hat thread.
That boy do get around! Just last week he was spotted at the Polo Lounge w/arm candy; then there was that clip of Times Square on a bike, of all things! Obama takes his calls!
I think he's an oil man, and you know that means big buck$ and loose women! Seems like all these guys from Oklahoma are loaded? I wouldn't be surprised if they buy Texas one of these days?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 07, 2008, 04:17 PM:
quote:
Seems like all these guys from Oklahoma are loaded?
Just the 'oilies' are loaded. The rest of us run on our good looks and rather high intelligence.
As far as the life size decoy, I have to agree with Leonard and Randy. The presence of other coyotes can cause a very negative responce in a calling situation. Evidence of this is present in the hides of large healthy coyotes that I have skinned. Many contain tooth punctures in a location that would indicate a retreat.
edit to add: Texas is for sale?
[ March 07, 2008, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 07, 2008, 05:04 PM:
Don't joke about Obama, Leonard. You never know where he'll show up. We were hunting today and needed fuel (AV) and the closest airport was Casper. We landed and were standing around waiting for a fuel truck and a big ass 737 lands and pulls up there. Fancy paint job and all. I had to ask whos it was and would ya believe it, it was Barack himself. No kidding. And they informed us that Hillary was coming in right behind him. We got our fuel and got the hell out of there. I guess Wyomings Dem caucus is going on or something.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 07, 2008, 05:37 PM:
Yeah, thanks Cal. I had heard that Wyoming was primed and ripe to go from Red State, to Purple; but BLUE? When that happens, you boys are in deep Yuppie shit, right behind Colorado.....and Kalifornia. haha
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 07, 2008, 10:36 PM:
I used a archery life like coyote for a decoy a few years back, i was able to get the two coyotes i was after. It did'nt bring them in close, but did get them to at least show themselves so i could get a good shot off. For normal day to day calling i don't think its needed and it was a pain in the butt to drag around. I still have it but only use it for special occasions...
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 08, 2008, 04:51 AM:
eonard,
To be quite honest with you, I suppose he does enjoy being paid for his opinion. All in all, it's a pretty sweet gig.
Rich,
Been swamped doing something besides sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen, so my online time is limited. Usually a little time now (damned early) and a little time before I turn in at the end of the day.
That aside, I was under the impression that everyone had stated their opinions on my earlier post on this matter and figured we'd all pretty much moved on. Since we apparently haven't, I'll contribute.
For some, the matter of calling the coyote is more than the kill. Sort of like how some guys actually enjoy a long, protracted fight with a good fish rather than setting the hook and yanking it over the side of the boat two seconds later. Kinda anticlimactic and, well, boring.
In certain parts of he country where, as Q would say, "any retard can be a rock star" when it comes to calling coyotes, the numbers of coyotes seen and shot at make up for the enjoyment of working one in across more challenging terrain. If your idea of a good stand is "squeal, see, kill" and it takes only about that long, enjoy yourself. Not all of us enjoy that luxury.
In areas where coyotes suffer more severe prosecution, using a decoy has proven to be effective in the late season, and I continue to receive phone calls from experienced callers who are being "sold" on this device as an adjunct to their setups on a weekly basis, even though I've cleaned and put my guns away for the year.
Just last weekend, a buddy of mine called to tell me of a coyote they killed over the Lone Howler. They were in a long valley surrounded by thick hardwoods on all sides. The field before them was about a hundred fifty yards wide and several hundred yards long and sloped to a ridge down the middle, not unlike a football field's crown. When they first turned the caller on, about a minute later, he observed a coyote on the far side of the field, bouncing up and down on its hindlegs trying to get a better look at the deek. At first, they couldn't see it except for when it stood on its hindlegs, but very soon, he observed that the coyote was right on top of the decoy, hackles erect and tail straight out. That coyote was just, at that point, visible to them because of the roll of the ground and he killed it within ten feet of the decoy.
As far as assertions that the decoy runs other game off, an upcoming piece in Predator Extreme will relate to its author's experience involving two bobcats. Both saw the decoy and approached it to challenge it, and both died within mere feet of the Lone Howler as they stood there growling at it.
One thing is for sure - the assertions that life size decoys are ineffective is quickly becoming known to be the erroneous false deductions of old battle horses like yourself that fall under the heading "You can't do (FILL IN THE BLANK) when calling coyotes because it doesn't work". I've heard that so many times and have deduced, myself that the reasons for people saying this are one of two things. They either haven't tried it and were once told that themselves by someone and have parroted the misguided remark themselves, or they do use it, it works, and they don't want others using it.
I've seen decoys work with (admittedly) a minimum of field testing. And, I've been besieged by other guys calling me to relate to me the successes they've had with them.
Granted, I don't condone using them year-round because I don't think they'll be effective at all outside breeding and denning times, no more or less than an actual dog. And often, I don't want the hassle of carrying them in over a long distance.
But, I've seen them work. They're an effective tool, available if you feel you need it. Or not.
I recall a time, several years ago, following a two-part series I did on howling, when everyone started waling about how howling wasn't an effective way to call and wasn't necessary when you could do good distress. And look at how popular howling is these days.
I stand behind my article. It's in the next issue of T&PC. Hope you enjoy it.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 08, 2008, 05:11 AM:
Good answer, Lance. I look forward to reading your article.
Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on March 08, 2008, 05:55 AM:
quote:
That aside, I was under the impression that everyone had stated their opinions on my earlier post on this matter and figured we'd all pretty much moved on. Since we apparently haven't, I'll contribute.
I guess I didnt see that post Lance. Forgive me for starting something that most haved moved on from,,,,now where does the decoy dog come in? If you dont mind. Good post reply above though.....Tad told me about the Bobcats killed over it.
Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on March 08, 2008, 06:47 AM:
I used the Decoy Thursday night trying to portray a female. I had it in a setting position, thinking it would come across in a non threatening manner. The male coyote was cautious but chirping made him more at ease to proceed to the decoy.
my 2 1/2 cents.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2008, 07:37 AM:
Lance, all contributions are good.
I didn't realize that your application was only for mating and/or denning season. I don't know about that time of year because I don't hunt then.
On the other hand, this is sorta like pissing in my boot and telling me it's raining.
I was using a decoy when you were in short pants, Amigo. I think I know how to evaluate a method and I see no value in coyote decoys, period. Must be an "eastern" deal or some other explain? Maybe if I was just jerking around, I might try it for the hell of it but as something I need to kill coyotes, nope.
Good hunting. LB
edit: (just call me Rock Star)
this just in: apparently this decoy thing works better if you click your heels three times and repeat; There's no place like home, there's no place like hom
[ March 08, 2008, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 08, 2008, 08:30 AM:
The use of lifelike decoys in pulling in prey species is well established and is big business. When used correctly the benefits outwiegh the negatives. Sometimes even a half assed attempt at a spread will get results and is better than nothing.
Predators? Different ball game.
[ March 08, 2008, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 08, 2008, 09:40 AM:
A generic question such as the "effectiveness of decoys" requires a better understanding of the variables that change from area to area in order to present an accurate and relevant answer to the question.
For anyone to say, "decoys work great" or "decoys won't work" doesn't help anyone without a knowledge of the variables that contribute to the answer.
Incidentally, I have noticed over the years that one of the best ways to measure the experience of of a coyote hunter, is to note the number of disclaimers they present when discussing coyote behavior that account for their understanding of the changes in variables from one area to another. Hard and fast answers tend to go hand in hand with limited experience. Just an observation.
Here's a handful of the variables I've seen experienced coyote hunters reference, from one area to the next, which are relevant to any discussion on decoys or decoy dogs (actual dogs):
1. Age of coyotes
2. Time of year
3. Type of habitat
4. Topogrophy
5. Coyote population in the area
6. Aggressiveness of decoy dogs (actual dogs)
7. Hunting pressure
Change any one of those 7 variables and you will get a different result to a decoy and/or decoy dogs (actual dogs).
1. Younger less aggressive coyotes will USUALLY react more timidly to both decoys and decoy dogs (actual dogs) than older coyotes with stronger territorial instincts. To discuss the reaction of coyotes to decoys or decoy dogs (actual dogs) without differentiating between adult coyotes and pups limits the value of that discussion.
2. Territorial instincts of adult coyotes and the yearling coyotes that accompanying them tend to be strongest when young coyote pups are still in the den. With decoy dogs (actual dogs) this aggression usually starts coming on strong around Memorial weekend and USUALLY peaks in June and July. Some adult coyotes will show strong territorial instincts and aggression year round and work decoy dogs (actual dogs) year round. Roughly 70% of most HEALTHY populations are pups (YOY) which have very little territorial instincts, particularly during the prime fur season, unless they are in the presence of adults that spur their courage.
3. Type of habitat becomes relevant because a decoy or decoy dogs (actual dogs) effectiveness is limited in it's ability to be seen. Open the country up so the coyotes can see them and you will have different success when compared to heavy brush country where the coyotes don't see the decoy until they are in range of a load of "Dead Coyote".
4. Topography also changes the game. If you can't place a decoy to where the coyotes can see it, the effectiveness is limited.
5. Territorial instincts of coyotes which drive the reaction to decoys and decoy dogs will also change depending on the coyote population in the area. When you have a heavy food base and good rabbitat with lots of coyotes, if coyotes responded to every coyote they heard howling they would do nothing more than run around in circles all day. Think about it. Population plays a huge role in how coyotes will react to different circumstances including their reaction to decoys and decoy dogs (actual dogs). If coyotes constantly see other coyotes, the attraction of a coyote decoy becomes less appealing. There is no "one size fits all" with most of this.
6. Specifically when dealing with decoy dogs (actual dogs), not all decoy dogs have the same level of aggression. The more aggressive the decoy dog's behavior, the less appealing it will be to a higher percentage of the coyote population. I'm reminded of places in Arizona where you had as much chance of calling in a dog (an actual dog) as opposed to a coyote. In those situations, a decoy dog (actual dog) would be a deterrant. The coyotes don't even howl in some of those places because their howls are usually followed by a stampede of Navajo dogs (actual dogs) chasing them.
7. The more guys you have using any method in a particular area, with guys that can't shoot or handle coyotes, the less effective that method will become.
I can assure you that with enough bad experiences with electronic calls, coyotes will be able to differentiate between electronic distortion rabbits and actual rabbits. If I can tell the difference, and I can in many situations, I have no doubts an educated coyote will. If they are educated and they can't tell the difference, they will circle downwind until they know for sure or they won't approach. The night game changes their behavior until they also become educated to those same sounds at night. Coyotes won't stop eating rabbits but they'll damn sure differentiate between an electronic rabbit and an actual rabbit if the electronic rabbit has been repeatedly followed with gun shots and preceded with vehicle noise. CONDITIONED RESPONSE!
By the time January rolls around, there isn't many coyotes left that haven't heard the common "wabbit scweam". Western SD alone has close to 30 coyote calling contests filled with guys that hunt coyotes one or two times a year. Add in the commercialization factor of "a coyote calling dvd for every coyote" and you don't have many coyotes that haven't heard the common "wabbit scweam" by the time January rolls around.
Getting back to the point of the discussion, decoys and decoy dogs (actual dogs) are only as effective as the knowledge of knowing when and where to apply their use.
For the situations that I call in, I don't see any value in a decoy because by the time the coyotes can clearly identify it, they are within shooting range. To set it up where it's visible requires exposing yourself. It's one more thing to pack when I'm already overloaded with binoculars, calls, WT, shotgun, butt pad, rifle, shooting sticks, etc. Anyone want to buy a coyote decoy?
Directly to the question of why coyotes run into decoy dogs and not to coyote decoys, the most accurate and correct answer is, the coyote reaction depends on the circumstances!
Sorry about the (actual dog) disclaimers but I wanted to clarify between discussing dogs (actual dogs) and coyotes, sometimes referred to as "dogs".
~SH~
[ March 08, 2008, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2008, 11:06 AM:
Good post (actual post) Scott.
I can imagine scenarios where a coyote decoy (not actual coyote) would work, but then we have the law of diminishing returns. Except for those pressured and persecuted Kansas coyotes, lugging a coyote decoy (actual decoy) to a stand seems to me to be an accessory most of us do not need? Reminds me of that bs going around a while back about squirting some sort of cover scent! Everybody knows that you cannot fool a coyotes' nose....much less their ears and/or their eyes?
Good hunting. LB
[ March 08, 2008, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 08, 2008, 12:21 PM:
The whole damn thing is confusing to me. We have decoys, decoy dogs (coyotes), decoy dogs (real dogs), and what about my real coyote if I were to use it for a decoy? Then we would have decoy coyotes (fake) and decoy coyotes (real). And back to just regular decoys, they can be motorized or not. And now everything from a magpie (stupid idea by the way) to a rabbit to a feather on a string. What about a live rabbit on a string? Or a duck. I was at a gas station one day and had a guy inform me (seriously) that the way to get coyotes was to tie a duck out by one leg on a string. He said he could sometimes get 6 or 7 coyotes out of one duck. But there is no doubt that decoys of any kind are like most everything else, they will work sometimes. How often or if it is worth the trouble will be a personal decision.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2008, 12:47 PM:
You're too dazzled by Obamamania to grasp the concept, Cal.
What we are being told is a decoy (fake coyote) is the next big sensation since the introduction of howlers....if I read that correctly?
I think it's a given that a decoy dog (live animal) can lure in territorial coyotes certain times of the year. I have heard that some dogs can scare off coyotes based on their color or something else about them? I believe a tolling dog is what we are talking about, one that entices a coyote into shooting range.
How that morphs into a fake stationary coyote (or a taxidermy model) being needed to lure coyotes into shooting range, or even bobcats to within ten feet of the deke, I don't know? It all depends on your "spread" of course!
I'm just yanking your chain, Lance. Maybe it has some value for some people, someplaces? Something to think about and discuss, and that's what we do here.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 08, 2008, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2008, 12:59 PM:
Now we are getting down to business! Lance just sent me this shot proving how effective a coyote decoy can be!
Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on March 08, 2008, 01:14 PM:
Tad sent me the decoy also. Beings ive been hunting and filming for HS i havent used it and now season is over. But,,,it does make a good pet though.....Vic, Zoey says hi..
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 08, 2008, 02:01 PM:
Those Eastern coyotes are huge aren't they!?
Is that Lance and Matt posing with a 155 lb alpha male that came into some chirps? Those inbred KS coyotes look like fox squirrels
Steve posing with his decoy shows just how large and realistic those decoys are. They didn't have to go all out and make the decoy life size to an Eastern Alpha male... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That decoy has mange. It should fit right into the SD population, no matter where you go.
fnord...
[ March 08, 2008, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 08, 2008, 08:23 PM:
If Cal were to stake his live coyote out, would plastic coyotes come running to him? THAT would be something to see.
The Lone Howler is pretty handy. He don't bark. He doesn't shit all over my backyard. Feeding him costs next to nothing, and I haven't had to wait even one second for him to get done playing grab-ass over the hill. He comes in when I call him and has yet to run a coyote off by being too aggressive. In fact, I've yet to see him back down from a fight. Hell, even Scott noted that the more aggressive a dog (actual dog) is(actually), the less effective it seems to be as a decoy dog (or something like that). If that's the case, the Lone Howler is damn near catatonic so it ought to be over the top at bringing them in.
As you will read in my award-winning article (I gave the award), I surmised that the decoy would work pretty much as would a real live dog (actual dog) as I don't see it being better than the real deal and wouldn't expect it to perform during those periods of the year when real (actual) dogs are counter productive. Of course, I'd be tickled pink to be proven wrong.
On a serious note, I commented from the get-go the same as Jay noted, as far as the inherent dangers to using lifesize decoys. This past season, a young man an hour from me was shot and killed by a roadhunting poacher who shot a rifle into what he thought was a flock of geese but was, in fact, a spread of goose decoys in which the youngster was hiding. To remedy this, I stenciled the word "DECOY" in four inch tall letters down one side of the decoy - the side that is placed facing the nearest road. Just in case.
I understand the position some take as far as why don't you just shoot the damned thing. If you can see it, and it can see the deek, kill it and get it over with. But I enjoy the approach. I enjoy playing with them and seeing what I can do to get them in as close as possible. I enjoy seeing what I can get away with and the decoy is an enjoyable way to do that. Maybe not for everyone, but that's just me, I guess.
Once they're summarily humiliated, THEN I'll kill them. It's a control thing. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 08, 2008, 10:23 PM:
Steve...She is a cutie.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 09, 2008, 01:56 AM:
quote:
To remedy this, I stenciled the word "DECOY" in four inch tall letters down one side of the decoy - the side that is placed facing the nearest road. Just in case
I figured the positioning of the decoy would be a bit more complicated. It doesn"t matter if I face it toward the cover, broad side to the cover, facing away with the tail lowered and slightly to the side, facing the screaming rabbit?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 09, 2008, 05:31 AM:
I'm not sure I understand your question, Dennis. It looks like you're asking about if I prioritize posture versus positioning the deek relative to the road. If so, the times I've used it, I've always tried to be back in the middle of sections or over a hill where it wasn't visible from any roadway. In the event it was, I always erred on the side of caution and placed it with the lettering toward the road and with the decoy not in line with me and the road, or where I might be downrange of it where a poor shot or ricochet would be an issue. You'd think that my truck being parked along the road would be a tip off, but people just get stupid when they see a gimme coyote standing out there.
As far as posture goes, that's one of the nice things about this partuclar decoy. When it was just a concept, Tad approached a large number of guys to ask their input. My suggestion at that time was to offer it in a sitting position, mouth closed, very submissive looking rather than anything that might be misconstrued by an approaching coyote as even the least bit aggressive. They went one better when they made removable legs and a posable tail that allows you to pose the decoy as standing, sitting (by folding the rear legs) or lying down (by removing all four legs). This decoy weighs (maybe) three pounds tops, if even that and comes with a large orange carrying strap that goes around its belly and makes it relatively easy to carry with you. It really is a lot easier to deal with than what you would first assume.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 09, 2008, 07:42 AM:
For those that have used a faux life size decoy...
Okay, admittedly I haven't used a life size coyote decoy before. I have used deer decoys. Different ball game, timeframe, circumstances.
Do you wait a longer period of time after setting it up before calling and do you prolong the stand any more than you normally would w/out the decoy?
If it is a prolonged stand is it because your past experience has told you that they will approach a visible coyote more cautiously, as they will sometimes do with howls and no visual cues?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 09, 2008, 08:30 AM:
From the couple I called with it, and in talking with the others that have used it much more than me, I don't see that there was any difference in setup timing, or response time. I use howling along with the decoy and the responses I've seen were pretty much like what I usually see with howls - anywhere from 5 minutes on and the coyotes in sight, approaching at a casual, observational-like gait. I didn't have any hard chargers, but I know guys that have.
I saw this guy toting a lifesize buck decoy in one day and being familarwwith that piece of ground, knew he had a good 800 yards before he was in decent hunting cover. Admittedly, I thought "what a dork." That thing had to weigh thirty or forty pounds, plus his bow and sundry accessories. Most of what I carry, aside from the gun and sticks, fits in my pockets.
I guess there are some that will think the same about anyone (me) carrying ol' Leroy in, but I don't care.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 09, 2008, 08:40 AM:
We did have a coyote full size mount shot by our plane years ago. Two guys out calling around a complaint area in some cover with it.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 10, 2008, 05:37 PM:
Cdog, I figured that would be the case and it would be somewhat the same as setting up an e-caller.
I guess when I have used decoys I really haven't gone out of my way to set it up. I just kind of plop it down and take a left or right or head back 20 or 30 yards.
I use a feather tied to my M1 and a lot of good it's done me. I had a couple almost tackle the caller but they ain't dead.
[ March 10, 2008, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 10, 2008, 07:49 PM:
Lance,
If I am following Dennis' question, he's asking if it matters which way the decoy is facing relative to the approaching coyote?
Because you have placed the limitation of facing the letters towards a road, you can't set the decoy facing towards or away from where the expected line of approach.
I remember the guy that made Silver Dog Howlers had a pelt decoy system, with a tripod of sectioned shooting stick like material for a "skeleton", and he recommended facing the pelt away from the approaching coyotes.
For the sake of the discussion, what about smaller than life decoys, or mounts of members of smaller competitive species?
Is a fox likely to spark a more aggressive approach, and do so over a wider span of the year?
Krusty 
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 11, 2008, 04:59 AM:
Randy,
Did the plane nosediving the decoy flush those hunters out? LOL I bet their story about what happened out there is at least as good as yours.
Krusty,
You may be right on that. In our area, with roads every mile or less, safety is my primary concern with orientation of the coyote decoy to the cover being somewhere else down the line. I've wondered this very thing as I position the deek, and will sometimes aim it toward the cover when and where I'm someplace that it can be done safely and without risk of being shot. There are a lot of things that can bust a good stand. Being shot at ranks right up there at the top.
As far as using a different species, I honestly don't know. Purely speculating, I would guess that it would work, but for reasons other than why a coyote deek works. I mean, I hate the neighbor's cat in my yard making messes, but not nearly as much as I hate their kids or them going through my stuff when they think I'm not around. Good question, and time will tell as people use them more and more. The lifesize facsimile deek is still a relatively new idea, or at least, only starting to be used widespread.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 11, 2008, 08:20 AM:
quote:
I'd be tickled pink to be proven wrong.
Assumption is the mother of all mistakes!!! But then again that`s how companies market their products. The consumer "assumes" that YOU know what the hell your talking about. That must be a big weight to carry.
Personally, I`d prefer to see you proven RIGHT before you write any more fantastic articles.
Do you hunt with dogs?
How many seasons have you used the decoy?
I don`t have anything against you or your writing but it does seem like you`ve put your claims & your ass way out in front of your actual experience.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2008, 08:33 AM:
Well, I think you are right, Lance. About a whole different set of motivations being employed, if you used another animal. What immediately came to mind was gray fox. I have used dead gray's on occasion and BOY, do they ever pull in a coyote! I don't remember how many, but I have also had a few stolen while I had my finger up my butt. Coyotes love them, maybe more than jackrabbits, which is why a gray fox distress is so effective.....because now they stand a much better chance of catching an injured fox before he can get up a tree. So, that changes everything, might as well use a robo rabbit, same effect. It's just another prey animal, with a twist because the territorial/competition instinct kicks in.
Another thing. As in fishing tackle, there could be something to play around with relating to size? Maybe a deke fifty percent larger would work, and more likely, fifty percent smaller which would kick in the "lost pup" effect. They sure wouldn't be intimidated by a lost pup, so that might solve one drawback?
Shit, I should be charging for this stuff.
Good hunting. LB
edited for spelling and noticing that while I was writing and getting a cup of coffee, JD offered his take on the current situation, but he forgot the smiley?
[ March 11, 2008, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2008, 08:45 AM:
To illuminate.
I think the whole purpose of this particular message board is discussion and opinion. We don't have to prove what we say here, not withstanding those "Global Publications" but this is largely the same as so much offered as FACT by the scientific community.
I say a lot of things that I personally believe and (frankly) don't give a shit if anyone believes it or not? It's free, take it or leave it. And, a whole lot of emperical data that we have concerning hunting these predators is subject to intense peer review, just like the academics. As it should be. Only we are mainly a little more polite.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 11, 2008, 09:40 AM:
Sorry about forgetting the smiley.
I guess it`s an occupational hazard, when on the jobsite we just say what needs saying, no smileys.
Lance, my post sounds a little harsh when put in print, it wasn`t meant to be a personal attack, just an observation. I respect the fact that you & others have had some success with this decoy but my point is that it may be a little soon to sing it`s praises just yet & it may be hard for you to make comparisons that you don`t have any appreciable experience at.(hunting with dogs)
Obviously I have zero skills at writing but I really didn`t intend to be "quite" that harsh.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 11, 2008, 10:24 AM:
JD,
No offense taken. No matter what I write, it's a pretty safe assumption that half of my reading audience will take exception to the point being offered. My skin has thickened over the years.
As far as the article, I was given an assignment at the beginning of this season to use a new product that had no competitors. Since then, Edge has produced a similar product with some significant differences in appearance and application, but based upon the same basic concept. It, too, receives mention in what I wrote.
Admittedly, I was skeptical that it would produce the desired effect. In fact, I actually asked my editor, as well as voiced my concern to friends with whom I spoke on this subject, about whether this was a viable tool for the caller, or were we just in a mad dash to beat everyone else to getting the next best thing to happen to calling on the shelf. Honestly, this was a major concern for me and at the forefront of my thoughts when it started. I spent the entire season using it when it was convenient and safe to do so.
I surmised, rather than assumed, that based upon my conversations with people in several states that use decoy dogs and the information I have gleaned over the years as to how they are employed (as opposed to our way of using dogs to run them down and tear them limb from limb), that these decoys would work in the same way that live decoy dogs work (with some obvious exceptions), and that they should be used concurrently (season-wise) with live decoy dogs. In other words, it was my hypothesis, if you will, that the decoy would work whenever a live dog would work, and not work when they wouldn't, and for the same reasons, since the same triggers and motivations come into play as far as the coyotes are concerned. I kept that hypothesis to myself, knowing that a rather large contingent of callers had these deeks across the country and that as the season progressed, I would likely be getting feedback on their effectiveness/ ineffectiveness.
As the season rolled along, I heard concerns that the deeks weren't living up to expectations. I procrastinated on the article, choosing to wait for the late season when I felt they would shine. And, as time went by, they did. Quite well, in fact. When that time finally came, I was backed against a wall as far as the deadline was concerned and I had Paul asking me where it was at. I got it written, re-written and re-written again as I worked with contributors and it will be in the next issue.
To answer your other question, everything I write should include a picture of my ass hanging out there. It can be quite intimidating to a new writer to have internet experts, and real experts alike, call you on how you use the word "the" sometimes, but you learn to deal with that and you learn to research your subject matter to be as objective as possible, then hope for the best. That's the nature of the beast. There are times that you want to just throw in the towel and not type another word. On the other hand, when you write a particularly good piece and start getting phone calls, letters and e-mails from people all over the country who used what you offered and upped their take as a result, you realize that you can't make everyone happy all the time, but you can be happy for the ones you helped.
In a perfect world, I'd have had four years to field test this product and would have done it myself in a half-dozen different states, but the industry is a fast-paced dynamic, like it or not, and time is of the essence on a lot of this stuff. Ultimately, and within a very narrow window in time, it would come down to either I write it, or someone else will. And, I felt there was a right way to write it, and a way that wouldn't accurately portray the products abilities and limitations.
I stayed in contact with some of the other "testers" throughout the process and assembled what I felt was the most informative, instructive and objective review of the product as possible, with my focus on accuracy and providing the reader with a workable tool.
Had it not produced, and had my initial opinion and skepticism remained unchanged, I'd have respectfully advised my editor that I didn't feel comfortable writing a piece that I didn't feel was accurate and truthful. You'll understand what I mean when you read the piece and see that I do not offer these decoys as a year-round adjunct, but rather as being useful at specific times of the year which I coincidentally support with much of the same information that Higgins just had in his sidebar as far as what's going on in the coyote's life at any given time, in addition to actual successes enjoyed by guys using them in real-life situations.
Long story less long (too late), I understand and share your concerns about accuracy.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 11, 2008, 03:19 PM:
Fair enough.
I wonder how long before Smithers modifies two of those decoys into a pair of "humpers" & sticks an e-caller in one playing the infamous "pre-penile chirp"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2008, 04:28 PM:
HEY LANCE
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 11, 2008, 05:35 PM:
Priceless, Leonard.
How about...
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 11, 2008, 06:07 PM:
Funny JD!
I won't be offering up any cash for a decoy any time soon, much less two. No chirps on my caller either. Strike two.
I don't think I've read an article or heard a story that made me say, "gotta have it."
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 12, 2008, 03:22 PM:
Lance, it just so happened these two gentlemen even had cameras and caught it all in several photographs. I believe Duane the gunner in the plane was sent one from them. Duane said he knew something wasn't right, he torched off a couple loads of BBB into it and it kind of fell over on its side, they then noticed the two guys coming out of the cover. Scott may know more details. It was before i signed on.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 13, 2008, 10:01 AM:
Here are my decoys and they love each other.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 13, 2008, 12:50 PM:
A hunter in north Dakota that goes by the name of silver fox has been useing a decoy for coyotes for quiet some time. Its a redfox made from papermachey and all painted up to look just like the real thing. I believe he said that the decoy has tobe in the sitting position and faceing the approaching coyote for it to work the best. I think he also tried one in the standing position and found that the tail has tobe tucked in for a none threating position. Not sure how often its used and what time of season he uses it...T/A
Posted by skoal (Member # 1492) on March 13, 2008, 02:23 PM:
Kelly whats Bean doin to that squirell!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 13, 2008, 02:48 PM:
My rat terrier does that to everyone who visits our house. We call it his "special hug". But, he hates quirrels and I can only presume that he'd feel the same way about ringtails.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 14, 2008, 05:47 AM:
Interesting anectdote about using gray fox. A late, ex-friend (hopefully the sorry bastard is rotting in hell...), once tried a stuffed gray, that he made himself. He screwed it up pretty bad and it came out looking more like a huge deranged weasel than a gray fox. He used it a few times and said it seemed to scare the shit out of every coyote that laid eyes on it.
Which tells me, that this decoy stuff has wrinkles and subtle details that can make it awful easy for people to have very different experiences even when they think they are using the same thing.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 14, 2008, 07:14 AM:
...and, you believed him?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 14, 2008, 11:59 AM:
I saw the video.
- DAA
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