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Author
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Topic: Why coyotes run in to decoy dogs and not coyote decoys?
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted March 07, 2008 08:55 AM
This was posted at OPHA board but i know some folks that dont go there much and I would like to hear some other replies by you guys. This is intresting to me. Here is the post and my reply to it.
[quote=Jay Nistetter]Hi guys. That bit of video was all I could manage while using the decoy for the first time. Used the decoy on 4 stands (I think) and called in a coyote on 2 of them. We called in 3 other coyotes but were not using the decoy at those set-ups.
More than once did everyone in our group scan for coyotes and twitch when they saw the decoy even though they KNEW it was there. Glad nobody shot it. I was a bit concerned placing it near any road that a passerby might see and take a pot shot at it with us hiding in the bushes.
I will be using the Lone Howler again tomorrow but was told to leave the chicken at home this time. Hopefully I will get some video of a live coyote and the decoy together on film. The problem with decoys such as this is that it makes real coyotes stop and look rather than stop an come a runnin'. I've never had a coyote run in to challenge a coyote decoy but I see it happen over and over by the fellows using real dogs to lure coyotes in.
[/quote]
Jay, Do you think the lack of aggression toward the decoy is because the decoy hasnt really made any moves or acts toward the coyote. Decoy dogs do run to the coyotes and when they aren't,you know like if you have a dog that isnt trained, they look in sort of a vulnerable state just walking around or whimpering at the sight of the coyote. This could be a real topic here.
Edit: to edit misplaced words
[ March 07, 2008, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 07, 2008 09:57 AM
Coyotes would likely not have much interest in a real decoy dog right now either. Mating season is over now, and coyotes would be less agressive toward a stranger in their territory. Now after the pups are born this spring, I think the real coyotes will act differently when they see Jay's decoy. Placing that decoy within a quarter mile of a den site, and then howling a time or two would likely cause some exciting action.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1492
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posted March 07, 2008 10:09 AM
Does anyone have info on when the coyotes start digging thier dens after the mating season ceases?
Posts: 251 | From: desert s.w. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 07, 2008 10:37 AM
Coyotes will often use the same den for several years. Here in western Iowa, I think the coyotes will start cleaning out old dens and modifying badger holes for new dens around April fools day? I ain't sure about that, but I'm betting that I am pretty dang close. I hope Cal or Wiley E will chime in here.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted March 07, 2008 11:20 AM
To be honest, this question was answered to my satisfaction years ago. A coyote decoy doesn't do a thing for the hunter, besides getting the coyote to check up and evaluate the situation, and you can do that with a bark, which doesn't weigh as much as the clumsy decoy. The problem is that, (if they can see it from a distance) then you might not have an ideal shot opportunity?
ONLY ONCE, did I have a coyote charge in on a coyote decoy, and it was when I was playing a combo sound of chicken distress with coyote growls and yips. Yeah, I killed it, but he could have rushed in and disappeared into the brush before I was able to get on him....which almost happened! Every other time I called in a coyote and saw him, he was peaking over brush, or stopped dead in his tracks and acting very spooky. I do not believe they are all that territorialy aggressive when you are using prey distress. I didn't evaluate with howls alone, but that seems like watching paint dry. Maybe Higgins could shed some light on this for a couple reasons. Number one, he has a lot more patience and frequently, doesn't even kill them. And, on the other hand, I know that he uses an ecclectic mix of sounds most of the time, so just howls and responses from close in animals before he starts with other sounds is rare, since the possibility exists that you accidently kick out some of the close ones even before sitting down. Ideally, you want to call coyotes that are neither too far away nor too close. I like to see a response within the 1.5 to 7 minute time frame. Maybe since he is such a well known professional writer these days, he would rather be paid for his opinion? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 07, 2008 11:51 AM
My experience with decoys is much the same as Leonard's. I had a few actually run the other direction. Quit using them years ago.
I have never used the life-size coyote decoy, however I would expect the results would't be much different.
Most people who think they need a decoy also believe they need an AR. You know. Just in case 9 or 10 come charging into the stand at the same time. LOL
Randy
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1492
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posted March 07, 2008 12:02 PM
Leonard
In my limited experience the decoy dog I use,during periods of the year do not bring in more coyotes , actually less.
Your absolutley right about that some people with better trained dogs may have another opinion, but I do it just for mixing it up a little , she (the dog) is a lot of fun to have along if my option is hunting alone.so far shes run off a couple and made others lock up way out there,Im hoping that she will bring them in during the denning season for some filming.just pictures for those of you about to flame me for hunting in the summer. I dont , but I still call and shoot with a camera.Althogh I am always armed in case things get out of hand. I still laugh about Cal,s post about the coyotes attacking one of his dogs "they won the dog fight but we won the gun fight" I have seen a lot of plastic decoys and frankly dont think I would carry one to the field. when i first started calling just a few years back I would carry a call and a rifle . These days I have a rifle sometimes a shotgun as well a stool ,bipod e-caller a jib what the hell happened . I must be a victim of good advertising.
Rich
thanks for the response i didnt mean to get the thread sideways it just popped into my head while I was reading your post, I have several areas that the coyotes seem to use each year and for denning ,I am aware that they can reuse dens and dont all make new ones but I wasnt sure about the timing. It would sure be nice to get footage of them digging and cleanig ect.
thanks
skoal
[ March 07, 2008, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: skoal ]
Posts: 251 | From: desert s.w. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 07, 2008 01:30 PM
Skoal,
I haven't seen anything wrong with the words in your posts, not yet anyway. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Leonard,
You are correct about those professional writers. CDog 911 don't post much at all since he wrote that magazine article awhile back. LOL
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted March 07, 2008 01:35 PM
I saw a den that was cleaned out last Saturday in SE NM....the same day I killed a rattlesnake.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted March 07, 2008 01:48 PM
Damn Kelly you really get around!
I'm jealous.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 07, 2008 02:38 PM
Boy, if that don't fit! Southeast New Mexico, Roswell and a tinfoil hat thread.
That boy do get around! Just last week he was spotted at the Polo Lounge w/arm candy; then there was that clip of Times Square on a bike, of all things! Obama takes his calls!
I think he's an oil man, and you know that means big buck$ and loose women! Seems like all these guys from Oklahoma are loaded? I wouldn't be surprised if they buy Texas one of these days?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32362 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted March 07, 2008 04:17 PM
quote:
Seems like all these guys from Oklahoma are loaded?
Just the 'oilies' are loaded. The rest of us run on our good looks and rather high intelligence.
As far as the life size decoy, I have to agree with Leonard and Randy. The presence of other coyotes can cause a very negative responce in a calling situation. Evidence of this is present in the hides of large healthy coyotes that I have skinned. Many contain tooth punctures in a location that would indicate a retreat.
edit to add: Texas is for sale?
[ March 07, 2008, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted March 07, 2008 05:04 PM
Don't joke about Obama, Leonard. You never know where he'll show up. We were hunting today and needed fuel (AV) and the closest airport was Casper. We landed and were standing around waiting for a fuel truck and a big ass 737 lands and pulls up there. Fancy paint job and all. I had to ask whos it was and would ya believe it, it was Barack himself. No kidding. And they informed us that Hillary was coming in right behind him. We got our fuel and got the hell out of there. I guess Wyomings Dem caucus is going on or something.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted March 07, 2008 05:37 PM
Yeah, thanks Cal. I had heard that Wyoming was primed and ripe to go from Red State, to Purple; but BLUE? When that happens, you boys are in deep Yuppie shit, right behind Colorado.....and Kalifornia. haha
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 07, 2008 10:36 PM
I used a archery life like coyote for a decoy a few years back, i was able to get the two coyotes i was after. It did'nt bring them in close, but did get them to at least show themselves so i could get a good shot off. For normal day to day calling i don't think its needed and it was a pain in the butt to drag around. I still have it but only use it for special occasions...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 08, 2008 04:51 AM
eonard,
To be quite honest with you, I suppose he does enjoy being paid for his opinion. All in all, it's a pretty sweet gig.
Rich,
Been swamped doing something besides sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen, so my online time is limited. Usually a little time now (damned early) and a little time before I turn in at the end of the day.
That aside, I was under the impression that everyone had stated their opinions on my earlier post on this matter and figured we'd all pretty much moved on. Since we apparently haven't, I'll contribute.
For some, the matter of calling the coyote is more than the kill. Sort of like how some guys actually enjoy a long, protracted fight with a good fish rather than setting the hook and yanking it over the side of the boat two seconds later. Kinda anticlimactic and, well, boring.
In certain parts of he country where, as Q would say, "any retard can be a rock star" when it comes to calling coyotes, the numbers of coyotes seen and shot at make up for the enjoyment of working one in across more challenging terrain. If your idea of a good stand is "squeal, see, kill" and it takes only about that long, enjoy yourself. Not all of us enjoy that luxury.
In areas where coyotes suffer more severe prosecution, using a decoy has proven to be effective in the late season, and I continue to receive phone calls from experienced callers who are being "sold" on this device as an adjunct to their setups on a weekly basis, even though I've cleaned and put my guns away for the year.
Just last weekend, a buddy of mine called to tell me of a coyote they killed over the Lone Howler. They were in a long valley surrounded by thick hardwoods on all sides. The field before them was about a hundred fifty yards wide and several hundred yards long and sloped to a ridge down the middle, not unlike a football field's crown. When they first turned the caller on, about a minute later, he observed a coyote on the far side of the field, bouncing up and down on its hindlegs trying to get a better look at the deek. At first, they couldn't see it except for when it stood on its hindlegs, but very soon, he observed that the coyote was right on top of the decoy, hackles erect and tail straight out. That coyote was just, at that point, visible to them because of the roll of the ground and he killed it within ten feet of the decoy.
As far as assertions that the decoy runs other game off, an upcoming piece in Predator Extreme will relate to its author's experience involving two bobcats. Both saw the decoy and approached it to challenge it, and both died within mere feet of the Lone Howler as they stood there growling at it.
One thing is for sure - the assertions that life size decoys are ineffective is quickly becoming known to be the erroneous false deductions of old battle horses like yourself that fall under the heading "You can't do (FILL IN THE BLANK) when calling coyotes because it doesn't work". I've heard that so many times and have deduced, myself that the reasons for people saying this are one of two things. They either haven't tried it and were once told that themselves by someone and have parroted the misguided remark themselves, or they do use it, it works, and they don't want others using it.
I've seen decoys work with (admittedly) a minimum of field testing. And, I've been besieged by other guys calling me to relate to me the successes they've had with them.
Granted, I don't condone using them year-round because I don't think they'll be effective at all outside breeding and denning times, no more or less than an actual dog. And often, I don't want the hassle of carrying them in over a long distance.
But, I've seen them work. They're an effective tool, available if you feel you need it. Or not.
I recall a time, several years ago, following a two-part series I did on howling, when everyone started waling about how howling wasn't an effective way to call and wasn't necessary when you could do good distress. And look at how popular howling is these days.
I stand behind my article. It's in the next issue of T&PC. Hope you enjoy it.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
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posted March 08, 2008 05:11 AM
Good answer, Lance. I look forward to reading your article.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted March 08, 2008 05:55 AM
quote:
That aside, I was under the impression that everyone had stated their opinions on my earlier post on this matter and figured we'd all pretty much moved on. Since we apparently haven't, I'll contribute.
I guess I didnt see that post Lance. Forgive me for starting something that most haved moved on from,,,,now where does the decoy dog come in? If you dont mind. Good post reply above though.....Tad told me about the Bobcats killed over it.
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
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Crow Woman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 157
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posted March 08, 2008 06:47 AM
I used the Decoy Thursday night trying to portray a female. I had it in a setting position, thinking it would come across in a non threatening manner. The male coyote was cautious but chirping made him more at ease to proceed to the decoy.
my 2 1/2 cents.
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Sheri L Baity
Lord, Please give me peace, because if you give me strength, I might beat someone to death!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 08, 2008 07:37 AM
Lance, all contributions are good.
I didn't realize that your application was only for mating and/or denning season. I don't know about that time of year because I don't hunt then.
On the other hand, this is sorta like pissing in my boot and telling me it's raining.
I was using a decoy when you were in short pants, Amigo. I think I know how to evaluate a method and I see no value in coyote decoys, period. Must be an "eastern" deal or some other explain? Maybe if I was just jerking around, I might try it for the hell of it but as something I need to kill coyotes, nope.
Good hunting. LB
edit: (just call me Rock Star)
this just in: apparently this decoy thing works better if you click your heels three times and repeat; There's no place like home, there's no place like hom
[ March 08, 2008, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted March 08, 2008 08:30 AM
The use of lifelike decoys in pulling in prey species is well established and is big business. When used correctly the benefits outwiegh the negatives. Sometimes even a half assed attempt at a spread will get results and is better than nothing.
Predators? Different ball game.
[ March 08, 2008, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 08, 2008 09:40 AM
A generic question such as the "effectiveness of decoys" requires a better understanding of the variables that change from area to area in order to present an accurate and relevant answer to the question.
For anyone to say, "decoys work great" or "decoys won't work" doesn't help anyone without a knowledge of the variables that contribute to the answer.
Incidentally, I have noticed over the years that one of the best ways to measure the experience of of a coyote hunter, is to note the number of disclaimers they present when discussing coyote behavior that account for their understanding of the changes in variables from one area to another. Hard and fast answers tend to go hand in hand with limited experience. Just an observation.
Here's a handful of the variables I've seen experienced coyote hunters reference, from one area to the next, which are relevant to any discussion on decoys or decoy dogs (actual dogs):
1. Age of coyotes
2. Time of year
3. Type of habitat
4. Topogrophy
5. Coyote population in the area
6. Aggressiveness of decoy dogs (actual dogs)
7. Hunting pressure
Change any one of those 7 variables and you will get a different result to a decoy and/or decoy dogs (actual dogs).
1. Younger less aggressive coyotes will USUALLY react more timidly to both decoys and decoy dogs (actual dogs) than older coyotes with stronger territorial instincts. To discuss the reaction of coyotes to decoys or decoy dogs (actual dogs) without differentiating between adult coyotes and pups limits the value of that discussion.
2. Territorial instincts of adult coyotes and the yearling coyotes that accompanying them tend to be strongest when young coyote pups are still in the den. With decoy dogs (actual dogs) this aggression usually starts coming on strong around Memorial weekend and USUALLY peaks in June and July. Some adult coyotes will show strong territorial instincts and aggression year round and work decoy dogs (actual dogs) year round. Roughly 70% of most HEALTHY populations are pups (YOY) which have very little territorial instincts, particularly during the prime fur season, unless they are in the presence of adults that spur their courage.
3. Type of habitat becomes relevant because a decoy or decoy dogs (actual dogs) effectiveness is limited in it's ability to be seen. Open the country up so the coyotes can see them and you will have different success when compared to heavy brush country where the coyotes don't see the decoy until they are in range of a load of "Dead Coyote".
4. Topography also changes the game. If you can't place a decoy to where the coyotes can see it, the effectiveness is limited.
5. Territorial instincts of coyotes which drive the reaction to decoys and decoy dogs will also change depending on the coyote population in the area. When you have a heavy food base and good rabbitat with lots of coyotes, if coyotes responded to every coyote they heard howling they would do nothing more than run around in circles all day. Think about it. Population plays a huge role in how coyotes will react to different circumstances including their reaction to decoys and decoy dogs (actual dogs). If coyotes constantly see other coyotes, the attraction of a coyote decoy becomes less appealing. There is no "one size fits all" with most of this.
6. Specifically when dealing with decoy dogs (actual dogs), not all decoy dogs have the same level of aggression. The more aggressive the decoy dog's behavior, the less appealing it will be to a higher percentage of the coyote population. I'm reminded of places in Arizona where you had as much chance of calling in a dog (an actual dog) as opposed to a coyote. In those situations, a decoy dog (actual dog) would be a deterrant. The coyotes don't even howl in some of those places because their howls are usually followed by a stampede of Navajo dogs (actual dogs) chasing them.
7. The more guys you have using any method in a particular area, with guys that can't shoot or handle coyotes, the less effective that method will become.
I can assure you that with enough bad experiences with electronic calls, coyotes will be able to differentiate between electronic distortion rabbits and actual rabbits. If I can tell the difference, and I can in many situations, I have no doubts an educated coyote will. If they are educated and they can't tell the difference, they will circle downwind until they know for sure or they won't approach. The night game changes their behavior until they also become educated to those same sounds at night. Coyotes won't stop eating rabbits but they'll damn sure differentiate between an electronic rabbit and an actual rabbit if the electronic rabbit has been repeatedly followed with gun shots and preceded with vehicle noise. CONDITIONED RESPONSE!
By the time January rolls around, there isn't many coyotes left that haven't heard the common "wabbit scweam". Western SD alone has close to 30 coyote calling contests filled with guys that hunt coyotes one or two times a year. Add in the commercialization factor of "a coyote calling dvd for every coyote" and you don't have many coyotes that haven't heard the common "wabbit scweam" by the time January rolls around.
Getting back to the point of the discussion, decoys and decoy dogs (actual dogs) are only as effective as the knowledge of knowing when and where to apply their use.
For the situations that I call in, I don't see any value in a decoy because by the time the coyotes can clearly identify it, they are within shooting range. To set it up where it's visible requires exposing yourself. It's one more thing to pack when I'm already overloaded with binoculars, calls, WT, shotgun, butt pad, rifle, shooting sticks, etc. Anyone want to buy a coyote decoy?
Directly to the question of why coyotes run into decoy dogs and not to coyote decoys, the most accurate and correct answer is, the coyote reaction depends on the circumstances!
Sorry about the (actual dog) disclaimers but I wanted to clarify between discussing dogs (actual dogs) and coyotes, sometimes referred to as "dogs".
~SH~
[ March 08, 2008, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 08, 2008 11:06 AM
Good post (actual post) Scott.
I can imagine scenarios where a coyote decoy (not actual coyote) would work, but then we have the law of diminishing returns. Except for those pressured and persecuted Kansas coyotes, lugging a coyote decoy (actual decoy) to a stand seems to me to be an accessory most of us do not need? Reminds me of that bs going around a while back about squirting some sort of cover scent! Everybody knows that you cannot fool a coyotes' nose....much less their ears and/or their eyes?
Good hunting. LB
[ March 08, 2008, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted March 08, 2008 12:21 PM
The whole damn thing is confusing to me. We have decoys, decoy dogs (coyotes), decoy dogs (real dogs), and what about my real coyote if I were to use it for a decoy? Then we would have decoy coyotes (fake) and decoy coyotes (real). And back to just regular decoys, they can be motorized or not. And now everything from a magpie (stupid idea by the way) to a rabbit to a feather on a string. What about a live rabbit on a string? Or a duck. I was at a gas station one day and had a guy inform me (seriously) that the way to get coyotes was to tie a duck out by one leg on a string. He said he could sometimes get 6 or 7 coyotes out of one duck. But there is no doubt that decoys of any kind are like most everything else, they will work sometimes. How often or if it is worth the trouble will be a personal decision.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
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posted March 08, 2008 12:47 PM
You're too dazzled by Obamamania to grasp the concept, Cal.
What we are being told is a decoy (fake coyote) is the next big sensation since the introduction of howlers....if I read that correctly?
I think it's a given that a decoy dog (live animal) can lure in territorial coyotes certain times of the year. I have heard that some dogs can scare off coyotes based on their color or something else about them? I believe a tolling dog is what we are talking about, one that entices a coyote into shooting range.
How that morphs into a fake stationary coyote (or a taxidermy model) being needed to lure coyotes into shooting range, or even bobcats to within ten feet of the deke, I don't know? It all depends on your "spread" of course!
I'm just yanking your chain, Lance. Maybe it has some value for some people, someplaces? Something to think about and discuss, and that's what we do here.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 08, 2008, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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