The New Huntmastersbbs!: Hey Rich... how old?

This is topic Hey Rich... how old? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2007, 03:57 PM:

Dr. Rich,

These are pics of the teeth from the old bitch I took along the river channel this morning. Canines worn down to the pulp, incisors worn flat across the front, and broken gangrenous molars/ gums. How old would you say she is?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2007, 04:28 PM:

Looks like a 3 yr, old coyote..Pretty tough to age a coyote by its teeth. Some areas the coyotes feed on dead cattle or deer with alot of bone chewing going on canbe hard on the teeth and cause them to where faster than say a coyote thats been feeding on rabbits and mice..T.A.

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on December 23, 2007, 04:37 PM:

Is there a better way to age a coyote than by its teeth Tim?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2007, 04:43 PM:

I don't know Danny, but i'm sure someone has the answer. I never worried about how old a coyote was as long as its not sucking on a teet and the fur is prime i just shoot them and maybe weigh a few from time to time.. T.A.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 23, 2007, 04:46 PM:

Lance, I believe she is 7 years old.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 23, 2007, 04:56 PM:

Danny, the only way to accurately age a coyote, bear or lion is to cross section a canine or if neccessary, a carnasial , stain it and count the cementum annuli rings. Age wear indicators are very close in precision for estimating the age of coyotes.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2007, 06:52 PM:

There you go, Tim. From the doctor. I know that dental wear will be influenced in deer by the amount of silica in the diet, i.e, desert mulies versus Kansas whitetails, but have never seen anything to support that contention in coyotes.

Thanks, Rich. Dog wagons don't run the rivers, so I bet the older ones are safer there. You won't find too many that old in the pastures.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2007, 07:42 PM:

So you are saying a coyote that eats deer and cows will have the same wear as a coyote that eats mice and rabbits

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2007, 07:54 PM:

No, I'm saying a deer that eats vegetation commonly found in desert biomes that has a higher silica content tends to result in abrasive damage to the enamel on teeth leading to accelerated tooth wear, thus in those speices, peer reviewed studies have clearly demonstrated that tooth wear in cervids and the efficacy of dental wear charts is relative to where the deer lived and fed.

As far as comparative limitations in tooth wear in coyotes, I haven't read the studies myself, but am willing to take it on good faith that Rich has and that the results clearly showed that there is no appreciable variation in tooth wear between coyotes in different regions.

As far as there being a difference between individuals that eat mice and rabbits versus those that eat deer and beef, you'd first have to show me a coyote whose diet is strictly limited to just one of those groups. Most coyotes I have known have been voraciously opportunistic omnivores, capable and very willing to eat anything they can catch (including other coyotes).

Studies that support the assertion that global warming is partly my fault, I don't believe. Studies that might unethically skew what we do and do not know about how coyote teeth wear down over time leads me to wonder just who would benefit from spreading that misinformation, and better yet,... why. I'm willing to accept it at face value. [Smile]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 23, 2007, 08:28 PM:

Tim, a coyote slices off meat with the carnasials, the meat cutting teeth behind the canines, some call them pre-molars. Coyotes chew bone with the molars. Age estimation is based on wear of the incisors which a coyote uses to pick at things rather than chew with. Occlussal interdigitation of maxillary incisors across the mandibular incisors as a result of mastication causes primary wear of those incisors, in other words the front upper teeth moving across the front lower teeth while the coyote is chewing on something with his back teeth causes that wear. The amount of wear each month and each year is predictable.
Studies by Dr.s Knowlton and Linhart concluded that aging by cementum annuli and wear indication were positively correlated. Another study by Dr. Bowen found that the two techniques generally agreed with each other within 2 years up to age 9.
Other studies have found that the techniques were both accurate in aging wolves.
Az Game and Fish require all successful hunters of bear and lions to provide the agency with a tooth for aging within 48 hours of taking the animal. They apparently are convinced that their aging technique is accurate.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 23, 2007, 08:47 PM:

Thanks for the info Rich. I could see where they cut a tooth in half and count the rings to age a coyote to be accurate, but as far as tooth wear i figured it would just be a wild guess due to what the coyotes diet is...
I shot two coyotes in the Dakotas a few years back and there teeth were worn down to just stubs, so these two coyotes must of been over 9 years old when compareing them to lance's coyote. T.A.

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on December 24, 2007, 08:02 AM:

Is there a better way to age a coyote than by its teeth Tim?
Female coyotes lie about their age all the time. A bunch of lying DOB's.
From the datum provided that coyote was born April 23rd of 1999 at 3 a.m. Probably on welfare...
Speculatory oscillation and pictography, aside, that is some good info on coyote toofs.
Could you send me a metacarpal ancillary receptor for further review?

[ December 24, 2007, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 24, 2007, 09:31 AM:

Sure, Chris. How about the middle metacarpal in vertical presentation? [Smile]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 24, 2007, 10:26 AM:

quote:
Is there a better way to age a coyote than by its teeth Tim

Other than a cross section of a tooth I don't know. If you look at a deer carcass that was fed on by coyotes and see how they scraped the meat off of the ribb's and other bones and if this was done on a reguler basis you would think that their teeth would wear down that much faster giveing a false age of the coyote..But then again i don't know.. T.A.

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on December 24, 2007, 10:54 AM:

How about the middle metacarpal in vertical presentation?

Touche! [Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2007, 12:29 PM:

Good for you, smithers! I wasn't sure you would get it?

Good hunting. LB [Smile]

edit: especially since it is difficult to detect without the connected phalange(s)?

[ December 24, 2007, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on January 15, 2008, 05:23 PM:

I picked up about 75 coyotes this season so far. Only seven have been yearlings - one of those had milk teeth in September. But nine have been 10+ years old. I put together a few pics of some of the gummy dogs, not necessarily the oldest of the season but these were pretty good ones.

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on January 16, 2008, 05:56 PM:

The Cavity Creeps have gone to work on some of those. A few, if not all, make the one in Cdogs picture look kissable.

[ January 16, 2008, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]

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