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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 12, 2007, 09:36 PM:
In another thread I said "It's not the call you use, or the sound you make with it, that leads to ultimate success. ...It takes a lot more than that to make a successful stand."
I screwed up quoting myself, but the basic point I was making is that there are many other factors in selecting and making stands that are more important than sound.
Here's the basis for my theory;
If I am quiet, on a stand, and don't make any calling sound at all there's still a chance I could kill a coyote, if all my other hunting skills are sharp, and I wait long enough.
But, if I am lacking in all the other skills needed, no amount of confidence, and no individual call design or sound can guarantee ultimate success (ie. a dead predator).
Hundreds of big game hunters, killing predators with "shots of opportunity", and hundreds of bumbling idiots like myself, failing to succeed despite how great the calls they use, prove my point.
How do you rate the importance of the call you use, and the sound you make, compared to "everything else"... location, terrain, climate, wind, camo, stealth, shooting proficiency, etc?
What is most important to you?
What are the ones you'd be screwed without?
Krusty 
Posted by canine (Member # 687) on July 12, 2007, 09:50 PM:
Krusty
To me it all is important and not one step supercedes another.
I have seen to many coyotes ignore several sounds and then hit them with choice number 4 or so and it's on!
I see your point but I believe sounds do have a great importance, maybe not so the actual sound but rather tha cadence to the sound and pitch.
I have been on many stands that go for 20 plus minutes, just knowing a coyote is in hearing distance and when we get to the pup distress at the end of a stand, like a flash there they are comin our way. Sure some can argue that it may have been the sound before, but, to many times, that pup howl and pup distress at the end of a stand brings em runnin.
JD
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on July 12, 2007, 11:35 PM:
Krusty,
IMO the set up in relation to wind, terrain, vegetation and light is by far the most important, assuming you can make any of a range of acceptable calls, that you are reasonably quiet and can hit a standing coyote inside of 100 yards.
People call critters to photograph also so I'm not going to rate shooting ability except to say that a man shouldn't go hunting unless he can hit reasonable targets with his equipment.
Of the calling factors, I'd give set-up 60%, call sounds 30% and camo, silence, not moving etc. 10% on coyotes, bobcats, foxes, all kinds of deer, bears, moose and elk.
For cougars, rachet the not moving on stand up to 40% if you have to see him for the call to count. Give the set up 40%, call sound 10% and divvy the last 5% into camo, silent approach, etc. Sound is more important than 10% but it is way less important than set up and not moving on stand for big cats.
In set-up I'm including wind direction, light, terrain and vegetation. You set up in relation to these things and that is the most crucial aspect to seeing the animals we call.
I'll be interested in what others say. I conciously set up to call animals pretty close, often in heavier cover than other people call, and my set ups reflect that style. I hunt mostly on the wet side of the Cascades, have hunted a lot on the Olympic Penninsula.
Calling critters is easy. Seeing the ones we call is the hard part.
[ July 12, 2007, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 13, 2007, 06:41 AM:
On an animal as capable of thwarting your every effort as Bre'r Coyote, it's ll important. Not sure how I would quantify each in order of importance, but to do the job consistently, you have to be moderately good at every stage.
You have to be able to select the best stand site, given ambient conditions and your knowledge of coyotes and how they work the area where you find yourself.
You have to know how to get from the truck to that site with the least disturbance. Too many newbs seriously underrate this part of the show, leaving an unproductive stand and blaming the call they used rather than realizing that they screwed themselves before they drew the first breath.
You have to know the sounds that produce results. It may not be a text book cottontail scream. Understanding and exploiting the fact that at certain times of the year, certain sounds work better than others and in areas of overuse, other sounds are just plain counterproductive. What you regard as a good sound may be completely different than what your target thinks sounds appealing. Success depends upon knowing the difference.
Being able to shoot helps, assuming you're in it to close the deal. Putting the coyote on the red X without blowing your cover, then getting the gun up and getting a shot at anything short of a full out runner is a real challenge for some people. For others? Not so much.
Personally, I think the single most significant reason for failures amongst new callers is a result of their naive unwillingness to do the work, put forth the effort, and expend the energy required to really, and I mean REALLY know and understand their prey. The more you know and understand about coyotes -their behavior, their social structure, and their day to day lives where you hunt - and the more you're able to exploit that knowledge and apply it to real life hunting situations, the more successful you'll be on a consistent basis. Time and agin, when asked a question about a particular situation where a rookie caller failed, or made a critical mistake that cost them fur, I can explain where I think things went wrong and why citing their failure to work within the confines of specific and well known coyote behaviors. For a lot of you guys, these details are now intuitive borne of years of experience. We don't even consciously think of them when setting up. The silent side of our brains is doing the work for us without being overtly called to duty. But, for new guys, they're just not to that point yet. Through failure and opportunity, if they choose to stick with it, they'll eventually round the learning curve and get 'er done. If you don't believe me, take the time this season and explain to someone or even yourslef why you chose spot "A" over any other spot "B", call "A" over any other call "B", and so on and so forth. When you have to put that information in an article, you quickly realize the volumes of information you consider in a blink of an eye, most of which is attributed to "it just feels right".
The "must-have" thing I can't call without? My knowledge of coyote behavior. Without that, the guns and calls become much less useful.
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on July 13, 2007, 07:12 AM:
What is most important..as O'Gorman would say "Stand Pickin".
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 13, 2007, 07:53 AM:
Just my humble opinion, but I think that the importance of each componant of the art and science of calling coyotes is dynamic and changes constantly over the course of a stand.
1. SOUND and all of the variables associated with it, volume, appeal of distress which includes pain,terror, and despair are the most important element at the beginning of the stand when the coyote is distant and out of sight.
2. When the coyote commits to the sound and begins his approach, SET-UP and all of its variables such as visibilty, concealment, wind and shade become the most important.
3. When the coyote is in good visual range and focused on the location of the sound CAMO becomes most important.
4. When the coyote has approached as close as you want it, then your ability to HANDLE the coyote becomes most important.
5. When you decide to stroke the trigger MARKSMANSHIP becomes most important.
6.When the gamewarden demands your license that you left at home, then Leonard's sense of humor becomes most important.
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on July 13, 2007, 07:58 AM:
I am not an expert and prolly should not respond but here is one thing that happened to me last year in Montana.
I was on a high hill over looking a coulee that went about a mile to the west and opened up with a creek in the bottom, it is about 3/4 mile wide, to the east it narrows to 500 yards. I set out the loudmouth and tried rabbit duet, 3 coyotes came up the bottom from the west to about 6-800 yards and started sort of milling around but not coming closer.
I tried deathlip on the loudmouth, nothing. I tried red fox pup distress and the came in a little,seemed interested. I went to my KKrier to what I call pup distress, high pitched, raspy, little yelps barks,
Those suckers came on the run!! got two
After wards I went back, walked all around the area, checked the wind and my stand hide from many angles. I was on top of the hill peeking over the edge, well concealed, the wind, light from west to east crossing my position, enough cover in the bottom to conceal the yotes but with open patches. The caller was lower and to the east slightly.50 yards away.
The next stand narrow coulee, little hill to my right, coyote came in around the hill into the wind, crossing from left to right. we saw each other at the same time,50 yards, we both froze, after a few minutes he turned his head into the wind, I slowly raised rifle and got him. KKrier, pup distress, bad concealment due to short grass. Next stand I was on one side of big coulee calling up a small side coulee, caller 25 yards to my left, wind left to right, red fox pup and mixed in KKrier pup sounds. coyote came in , busted me, froze at 30 yards. got away. good concealment.
On the first stand it was the sound that closed the deal. everything else was good, approach etc. 2nd stand I got lucky, should have set caller further away, hid better, did not anticipate approach route. 3rd. stand I was stupid and lazy, caller too close, bad angle, did not think about approach, did not think about getting shooting angle or that if the coyote looked at the caller it would be looking at me too.
Last make sure there are coyotes there, I called lots of spots that looked like good places, but there was no sign/ no yotes.
I dont think there is a "most important" you must do iit all right. Call where they are, sneak in use contour to hide, walk a ways get away from truck and roads, camo well, sit still, anticipate approach and shot angle, try to get yote to look at anything but you(this year I am trying turkey feathers on light line hanging by the caller), experiment with sounds, use the wind, adapt to the situation you are in, start sneaking when you leave the truck not when you are close to the stand site.
anyway thats my meager knowledge.
Carl
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 13, 2007, 08:24 AM:
That's all good contributions, above. Interesting that Krusty doesn't place much importance on the ability to add, but what the hey; I'll never be a rich man, either.
I like Higgins angle, putting all those important elements in order.
Of course, bofire has the right idea in the first place...how can you go wrong when you selected Montana?
One thing not actually mentioned by Lance, but I'm sure he knows it's a part of planning for success is which way you sit down and swing a rifle, pretty automatic thing; but you need to relearn it now and then.
There are decisions made before, during and after the stand that make a difference, including how much time you devote. Lot's of ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 13, 2007, 11:48 AM:
Defintely, Leonard. Since I shoot "wrong" handed, I usually set up looking/ quartering to the left of where I WAG he'll show up since I can swing to the right the best. I always have to remember to ask anybody I hunt with how they shoot so I can remember to put them on my left for the same reason (if they shoot right handed). Just an example of one of those brazillion things you do but don't think about on every stand.
Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on July 13, 2007, 03:28 PM:
90% call where there is a willing participant "ie the varmint" and ten percent the other stuff. Guy can look like a real pro when there's plenty of dumb ones.
Sorry, just felt like being an a-hole.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on July 13, 2007, 04:11 PM:
quote:
"It's not the call you use, or the sound you make with it, that leads to ultimate success. ...It takes a lot more than that to make a successful stand."
I with ya Krusty,
Things I think that can bring percentage's down from not being success in the field to being successful
Woodsmanship = 60% of success
knowing your pray = about 25%
calling abilities = about 15%
luck = 5%
[ July 13, 2007, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 13, 2007, 05:43 PM:
I would also agree Stand selection is most important, everything else will just fall into place after a little exsperiance...
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on July 13, 2007, 06:42 PM:
quote:
90% call where there is a willing participant
I can't dispute that kind of logic. If they're not there, everything else is a waste of time.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 13, 2007, 07:37 PM:
But if they (predators) are there, and you screw any or all of the other things up, there's no use in calling.
At that point, the call you use and the sound you make with it, had NOTHING to do with your failure, and can do nothing "magical" to bring success back out of the jaws of defeat.
Otto didn't find instant success because he used a Krusty Krier, he found it because "he had it in him".
He's a proficient experienced hunter, he used the wind and terrain, cover and camo, to his advantage, in a place where there were receptive coyotes.
Once ALL that was in place, he was able to make an effective sound that brought a coyote into sight and/or gun range.
And my opinion is that he could have made an "effective sound" with any call, his lips or voice, or a can of beans and a fork (eh Leonard?), because everything else was already right.
Krusty
P.S. I didn't start this thread for me, at Rich's suggestion it was started merely for the purpose of discussion.
P.P.S. Canine, and Bofire,
If you each have this sound you are both sure is somehow so "special", why do you wait 'til the end of a stand to use it?
Why would you ever even use any other sound?
Weren't you confident in the sound you started with?
Where did that confidence go, and was it replaced with new confidence, or did it come in with the coyote?
Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on July 13, 2007, 08:15 PM:
Krusty
Take me up on my offer this winter?
I may be abol to help piece some of the questions together
I will be up thear any way
Good hunting Kevin
Posted by canine (Member # 687) on July 13, 2007, 08:29 PM:
Good question Krusty.
My reason is because I am setting up a scenario for the coyotes. Goes kinda like this.
Start stand with a lone howl= Strange coyote In area. Territorial, curiosity responses
Go with Rabbit distress= Strange coyote eating my food. Territorial, curiosity, hunger
No commitment from Rabbit , go to bird, fawn, somethin to get a response.territorial, curiosity, hunger
If still no response then hit them with a high pitched howl..pause... deeper toned cut off howl..then pup distress. Makin the coyote think that stranger may be possibly whippin up on pack member. Territorial response.
Come late december through march I mostly only use pup distress and howls. The competition by this time have wised up or educated or learned them by a conditioned response that prey sounds could be bad. So pup distress and howling are my main sounds.Territorial and breeding responses.
JD
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 13, 2007, 08:43 PM:
I am impressed that George a Gives 105% at every stand!
If I am cold calling the most important part for me is stand selection and getting in undetected.
You can pretty much figure out what calls, sounds and stands you want to use beforehand when calling a spot you are very familiar with. The only variables then become wind, weather, time of day and season. Four very important factors but very easy to overcome with a little forethought.
Are they starving or just hungry, breeding, on the move or laying up? These four help in determining what sounds I will more than likely try.
Second and third guessing has cost me a couple of easy lay ups in the past, so now I go with my original plan of attack and adapt only when they dictate I do so.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 13, 2007, 09:03 PM:
"P.S. I didn't start this thread for me, at Rich's suggestion it was started merely for the purpose of discussion."
Kevin,
We haven't established there are any answers that I am looking for, I know what I think is important and not much can change my mind.
THE most important factor of all is a CALLABLE population of coyotes, with callable as the master key.
I already explained that I think your offer is too generous. So is Mercer's, and Carl's, and Dusty's... etc.
(*Edit, nothing I could learn on one of these trips would produce a callable population, or reduce the pressure on the existing population, at home
You can give a man a fish, or you can teach him to fish... but if he lives in the desert fishing isn't a very valuable skill, now is it?)
I've come a long long ways, mostly on my own, and I have gotten my ass fully kicked.
At this point if I ever do pick myself up, dust myself off, and try to finish it, I am going to finish it alone.
But I am staying down, and letting the count run, for a while.
And I just might be whipped.
Today, I have absolutely no intention of going calling in the future, near or far.
Krusty
[ July 13, 2007, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 14, 2007, 01:07 AM:
and, I have no knowledge of your inability to count percentages. Please forgive my error, and quit sending me whiny ass emails! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 14, 2007, 09:48 AM:
Seeing as our administrator has taken a leave of absence, mentally, for a bit. I'll have to ask you to take any off topic conversation to e-mail. Thanks INTERIM SELF-APPOINTED, SELF-INDULGENT PAKMANASS WANNABE KNOW NOTHING AT ALL MANAGEMENT. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ July 14, 2007, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on July 14, 2007, 10:34 AM:
Very good post,Rich Higgins,clear down to,Leonards sense of humor.That one alone could get me out of trouble with the game warden,he to has a sense of humor.
In my enviroment of calling.I considder everything i do,got to be 100%
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 14, 2007, 11:16 AM:
I DID NOT LEAVE MY ABSENCE ANYWHERE, SMAKMAN.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 14, 2007, 11:42 AM:
110%
Ya know, this is one of my pet peaves.
You hear athletes say "I give it 110%!", this is BS because there's no such thing as "more than 100%".
If you take a 5 gallon bucket, and pour 100% of it's capacity in it (5 gallons), and then you pour another 10% (1/2 gallon) the bucket still only has 5 gallons in it.
The best analogy I know of, for the way you think about a stand, is Keith Code's "10 dollar bill".
(*Keith Code teaches motorcycle racing schools, and when I was an student then later an instructor, for a local school, we used his course material)
You have 10 dollars worth of "attention", everything you do cost you some of your attention.
Some things you don't think you think about still drain your 10 dollar bill.
Like in calling, some things are cheap (reflex actions), but other things are expensive (multiples, long shots).
When you are green, you'll run out of money all the time, and if you're smart you'll learn to spend your money more wisely in the future.
When you are well seasoned you'll have money left over, like driving down the freeway not really paying but pennies worth of attention, but still not at risk.
Leonard,
I sent an e-mail, because I didn't want to point out my own mistake.
I thought I missed a joke, and HAD actually made a mistake in my math somewhere (like in counting Otto's coyotes).
I'm dyslexic, that kinda thing happens without even noticing it.
My e-mail was only six (of my) words, "Say what? I'm not following you.", I have no clue where you got "whiny" from confused?
You are right though, I don't place much importance on the ability to add (I'm not good at it myself).
And I have to disagree, I think you are a rich man, and I have riches of my own that didn't require math to get.
Krusty
P.S. The e-mail I sent you was right when I got back from the vet, so maybe you are just very intuitive, and felt my pain?
Posted by Otto (Member # 1469) on July 14, 2007, 03:21 PM:
what a wealth of info gathered from this thread!
Thanks! and keep it up!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 14, 2007, 04:11 PM:
See, it costs you nothing to get all knowed up!
Is this a great country, or what?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 14, 2007, 05:00 PM:
But, Krusty, lest we forget the ol' addage, "Five gallons of manure in a three gallon bucket"?
She be looking like more than a hundred percent.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on July 14, 2007, 07:33 PM:
You can take any mouth blown call or electronic call with any man, with any rifle,and practice with that rifle as much or little as you want, wearing a bunny suit or whatever, and if the noise you make falls on deaf ears nothing else matters.
Once again 90 percent of the coyotes live in 10 percent of the country.
Rich you are living in a target rich enviorment. I can take you into pasture after pasture and in order for steps one thru six to happen it would have to be heard by a coyote, and in these pastures here, which look awesome, there are very few coyotes.
Knowing where the coyotes are and why during the course of the year increase the odds of being heard. Experience in your calling area is by far the most important thing to me. Knowing where the stands are with what ever wind, water sources, shade,etc. The success of all other aspects of the hunt hinge on having an audience. The polishing of the finer points come thereafter.
Locating and the ability to read country along with experience in the field start the machine in motion.
Most anyone can blow a distress and sound something like a rabbit, blow a howler and sound something like a coyote. We have good rifles that will hit a coyote size target at 100 yards, optics etc. We have a boatload of videos to show you what to do, we have camo for every state, but the one thing you must do on your own is get out and learn where your coyotes are.
You can drop a beginner in a honeyhole and he will pull up coyotes, he may screw up the things mentioned but he will never get better at them unless he does them, on the otherhand drop an expert in a nobody around nieghborhood, or maybe a one or two coyotes in a 20 square mile unit and see how that works out.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 14, 2007, 09:43 PM:
Lance,
I am not familiar with that adage, but if you pick up that bucket and walk away, you still only have three gallons in it.
Randy,
If you drop a beginner in a hellhole, they call him Krusty, and make fun of him on the internet. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Krusty
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 14, 2007, 10:09 PM:
That's not true! We USED TO. Didn't help.
Then we quit, and that didn't help either.
Good hunting. LB
(but at least you quit whining about it)
You did quit, didn't you?
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on July 15, 2007, 06:07 AM:
Krusty, no one started out without screwing up!!!You can't kill # 2 till ya get #1.
No one here will make you an Alpha, you have to earn it. It takes courage to admit your short comings, but step up and take it by the shorts and kill something.
YOU CAN DO IT!!! or roll over on your back, avoid eye contact, eat scraps, and be quiet.
I'd rather be in looking for those two coyotes in 20 square miles than not hunting, wouldn't you!
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 15, 2007, 08:37 AM:
Krusty there are other ways of harvesting a coyotes besides calling. There is spot and stalk, and the way i do it here at home with a few friends. Like Randy said get out there and get some...
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 15, 2007, 09:02 AM:
Randy, of course everything you wrote is absolutely true.
However, Krusty said "...It takes a lot more than that to make a successful stand."
and I focused on the STAND rather than prescouting and I take it for granted that there will be no stands without coyotes, just as there will be no Indy 500 without racecars, no bullseyes without targets and no VHA 1000 yard club without prairie dogs. I do live in a coyote rich area and I greatly appreciate them. I have also lived in areas where I spent more time locating coyotes than I did calling them.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 15, 2007, 11:31 AM:
Leonard,
Yep.
Randy,
I don't care to kill #2, or #1, anymore.
A lot of people around here have claimed they can "make success" for me.
At least you and I can agree, I have to do it on my own, if I am to do it at all.
How many times could you "step up" only to be smacked down again.
Would you have lasted 6 years without any success?
I gave it my best, and it wasn't good enough, I don't have anything left to give.
I CAN'T DO IT.
TA,
You don't even have a clue, if you think you could spot a coyote around here.
I have asked a bunch of times before, "how do you guys spot a coyote, then get permission to hunt?"
I'm not willing to commit a crime just to kill a coyote, I won't trespass, I won't shoot from a road or a vehicle, and I won't use a rifle in an area where they are banned.
The last coyote I just spotted in a field was over three years ago, and he was in a State Park, several hours drive from home.
I don't know how "you and your friends" do it? But I don't have any friends who hunt.
Rich,
See, how I screwed up the quote... please replace the word "stand" with the word "hunt".
To me a stand is an individual part of a hunt, not necessarily a place.
And all the elements of "making a stand" start long before you reach said place.
Either way, I believe the sound you make, falls low on the list of keys to overall success.
Krusty
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on July 15, 2007, 03:19 PM:
I have been out of town, but Krusty if you read my post, I was watching 3 coyotes, that changed attitude and came in upon changing sounds, came in running, after milling around for 10 minutes.
thats why that sound is "special" and if you read my post, that response, with that sound was consistant.
Why ever change, cause I am curious.
Carl
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 15, 2007, 03:47 PM:
Krusty: I have been to Washington state twice. I stopped at a place in Yakama valley and picked up a load of those big apples they grow there. I'm not real familier with where you live. I assume that you get snow and you have atleast one good hand for knocking on doors.
Here its not as tuff to get permission like you may think. We have been hunting coyotes and fox here for years and we hunt them according to state laws. We have cards we hand out to land owners with our phone numbers on, we carry plat books and they have the land owners number listed in them. Some land owners give us unlimitted hunting for coyotes, in other words we don't have to call everytime we hunt there land. Some land owners call us when they have a few to many coyotes. Each guy in crew has his own areas with land owners they know which makes it easey. All together we hunt 4 counties and some times we hunt farther out from our area, but all we have to do is look in plat book or go to nearest farm and get permission. What we do is very simliar to long-line trapping, knock on doors or call..
We drive the back roads and look for coyote tracks crossing the road and going into a section. We drive around the section to see if tracks are comeing out and while doing this we get lucky and spot a few coyotes laying out in open along a fence line or clump of brush.. We make the calls or knock on doors, get permission and then go after them, no big deal.. We use our pick-ups to get around but we don't shoot from them and we don't chase them. If one gets buy us and into next section then we make some calls and go after him..again know big deal...
Youre coyotes maybe just like the ones we have, throw youre calls in the drawer and go to them. I find hunting coyotes just as rewarding as calling them, the calls are just another tool. And at the moument i won't let uncallable coyotes stop me from harvesting them...Open youre eyes and ears and give it a try you may like it.. Takecare.. T.A.
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on July 15, 2007, 05:02 PM:
Krusty if you don't care if you ever kill one and are done with it, well so be it.
If you ever get real lost and end up in SD give me a holler.
I guess that would be REAL LOST!!!!!!!!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 15, 2007, 05:21 PM:
TA,
Washington is a very diverse place, not much of it looks like the Yakima Valley.
And most of the land in the Yakima area is off limits, either agricultural/suburban, military, nuclear, or tribal.
Getting permission to hunt private property, here, is way harder than you can imagine.
Even as a beaver trapper, offering a service I can actually perform, it's very difficult to secure land access.
This thread isn't supposed to be about me, you guys are beating a dead horse.
Until you go a hundred stands or so without even SEEING a coyote, and spend one day in the kind of place I hunt, don't tell me to "buck up".
Krusty
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 15, 2007, 05:31 PM:
Krusty: I was'nt saying you had to keep calling! What i was trying to say is there are other ways of getting a coyote and haveing just as much satisfaction in doing so. I saw from youre pic's the area you live around is pretty thick so spot and stalk is out to. You could try trapping them..
Posted by Otto (Member # 1469) on July 15, 2007, 10:06 PM:
You could try trapping them..
no we cant do that any longer.... Trapping is now part of our heritage history..
Posted by Otto (Member # 1469) on July 15, 2007, 10:10 PM:
quote:
"buck up".
yea ya should and come on up here, lets get you number 1 and me number 3 I'll let ya shoot first. There are alot of venturing pups out lately and prolly some hungry momma's out.....
I start a new part of my job tommorrow that will keep me in the field about 80% of the time for the next 9 months, so I should have a few dogs patterned out a bit over a 2 county area..
I really want to get a couple of those coyotes that caused me all sorts of havic last year before they teach their offspring their dirty ways (LOL)
[ July 15, 2007, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Otto ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 16, 2007, 08:24 AM:
Thinking this through more thoroughly has brought me to this conclusion.
Confidence in the calls I use and the sounds I make are very important to me on stand. Are they more important than location wind etc... Probably not but they hold a certain place in my calling strategy that can't be explained. I love calling and making the sounds that attract the prey. It is the essence and the epitome of hunting for me.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on July 16, 2007, 11:22 AM:
Rich Higgins nailed how the factors each are most important at different times during the call, so that the whole operation works together. Smithers put the frosting on with confidence. I wouldn't even try to explain it but confidence is an enormous factor, maybe because we hunt and look a little better if we are actually expecting something to come in.
I grew up in Eastern WA and have lived much of my adult life on the wet, western side. The difference between the two sides of the State are exactly the difference between the dry scrub sage country of Wyoming and rain forest jungle. Tourist brochures only show the green lush wet side, where all of the yuppies live around Seattle. They don't show blow sand, scab rock lava with dead cheat grass and six inch high sage, prickly pear cactus and sidewinder rattlesnakes. I get a kick out of people who mention places like Centralia and Yakima in the same sentence as if there were any similarity whatsoever. Annual rainfall changes from about 6 inches in places to over 150.
But I do see a fair number of coyotes in the wet western country, partly beause I have eyes trained subconciously as a kid to see them. Seen many around Sequim, Port Angles, several in the true rain forest near Kalaloch, Hood Canal, Discovery Bay, many up and down I-5 from Blaine to Vancouver, WA., around Stevenson, Lynden, in downtown Bothell and Lynnwood on the sidewalks, etc. Have also seen many many coyotes along the freeway just north of the border along Boundary Bay, sloppy wet, brushy and a foot above sea level. All of these are on the wet west side, and the sightings mentioned cover probably 20 years, not a lot per year but several each year without trying.
Well understand your stance, Krusty. I got that way on a particular kind of fishing once and never tried for that species in that way again.
On the confidence thing, I think I can call western WA coyotes, even though I haven't tried much, only worked on cougars for the last few years when I have time to get out. Maybe that is arrogance, as Billy the Kid (?) and I called it awhile back. Had a big yote come to a cat stand last year, one of the first times that's ever happened to me. He stood around too long at less than 25 yards. I looked him over, saw he was big with a prime pelt, and decided that since I never had kept a coyote fur but sold all of them, I wouldn't mind having him tanned in my office. Wet country, tangles of tall blackberries, roaring creeks in the steep forested canyon, within 30 miles of salt water.
Luck and confidence, (or arrogance).
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on July 16, 2007, 02:05 PM:
I don't think there is any place in the US where coyotes are uncallable all of the time. I don't think there are areas that you can make 100 good stands in coyote country and come up empty handed. You will spend more time and call more for what you get, but you will still end up killing coyotes, just not as many.
I think population plays a big roll, I would love to have AZ or California type numbers in some of my areas, but even with fewer coyotes you can still call them. Higher populations trigger more greed factor and more gusto to the call alot of the times, timeing of the year can help, but even with lower per sq mile densitys, those coyotes need to eat and defend territorys to some degree, they all have basic wiring.
As Randy R pointed out, you can't call what ain't there and you can't have responses if they can't hear your offerings! I'm no gurue, but using different sounds at the right times of the year will pay off, in areas of heavy pressure or limited coyote numbers or both.
I look at what is hot off the caller rack and ask at the stores what 1 or 2 calls are the most popular sellers and I'll stay away from them. I always look for new sounds on my e caller, things that add a change of pace and use these in areas I know many callers are welcomed by land owners. Change up time of day to calling certain areas, how long one stays on stands, calling direction change up and using different sounds when I go into some of these areas.
I don't expect to knock um dead in these low density, high pressured areas, but can still manage to call out pairs or singles out of these types of areas, when needed or just for fun.
Krusty if you have the will, there is a way and when you find it, you will be better off and more experianced for sure.
I used to trout fish and they would never stock trout in the summer, way less pressure from others when no stocking taking place, many would fish dead pools and use corn,cheese or crawlers and had poor success, I kept working and thinking, the answer was only fishing the shady moving water= cooler water temps and more o2 in the water and use natural baits and natural presentation. Chub tails and just enough split shot to get that tail to dance on the rocks in the swift water,keep my shadow off the water, I would have my limit in under an hour each day and walk by those sitting in the lawn chairs on the still pools and they would ask how the heck I did it. I would tell them corn and a bobber
[ July 16, 2007, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 16, 2007, 03:19 PM:
Quote; "I don't think there are areas that you can make 100 good stands in coyote country and come up empty." C. Whacker.
YES THERE IS..... It's called Western Washington. AKA 'The Wet Side.' I've done some hunting in that Gawd foresaken area and until you've tried it, you can't comprehend just how bad it really is. In the first place, 'good' stands can't be made and in the second place, it's lousey coyote country. Picture hunting in an overgrown Xmass tree lot with waist deep blackberry vines & timber slash. Throw in enough ferns that you go hours without seeing the ground to walk on. Now turn the sprinklers on. This is what Krusty is dealing with. While I don't agree with his politics, I've got to admire his stubborness in attempting to succede on his own terms.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 16, 2007, 03:33 PM:
Oh, and the most important thing;
"Chance favors the prepared mind".
Line by a bad guy in a Bruce Willis movie, but I still like it.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 16, 2007, 04:46 PM:
Otto,
You may be willing to say "trapping is gone" but I take great pleasure in pushing the envelope, and I'm not willing to throw away any of my traps.
There is a perfectly adequate permit process, and I am willing to work within that system.
If a guy is willing to jump through some hoops, he can end up using padded foothold traps, for coyotes.
I haven't tested my hoop jumping ability, with canines as the target, yet.
But I am willing to gamble that if you could get yourself lined up with a piece of property, with a real nuisance problem, the permits would be easy to acquire. (*Easier to get, than to fulfill)
I appreciate the invitation, but I don't want to bum your trip.
As you may be able to tell, I am far less than enthusiastic about calling lately.
And I'd hate for my curse to rub off on you.
Besides, I'm still at "can't get there, from here", with no wheels.
Okanogan,
I don't know of anywhere with low growing sage, all the scablands I have called, the brush was nearly as tall as I am.
Gloyd Seeps, the Potholes, Frenchman's Coulee, Winchester Wasteway, Horse Heaven Hills, Ancient Lakes/Quincy, LT Murray (Sheep Company, The Cottonwoods, Moonshine Ridge, Gnat Flat, Umptanum, Durr Rd, Mt Clifty etc), the Clockum, Swanson Lakes, Vantage, Lower Crab Creek Colombia Basin Wildlife area... and many more "desert locales", have seen my presence.
Sounds like you see a fair number of coastal coyotes, in places they cannot be hunted.
That's not good for much in my book.
Seeing them, and being able to hunt/call them, are not the same.
Coyote Whacker,
"If you have the will, there is a way..."
That's the part you guys are NOT understanding, I had the will, and oft times had the "confidence".
But after hundreds and hundreds of failures, I NO LONGER HAVE THE WILL, my confidence is shattered, and I am beaten.
This thread is not supposed to be about me, and how I can solve a problem that doesn't bother me anymore.
YOU GUYS are the only ones who care, if I shoot a coyote or not.
Kokopelli,
Thanks for at least understanding, at times I wonder if I haven't made this all up in my head, but that's usually just wishful thinking and reality sets in after a stand or two.
You forgot to mention the canary reed grass, this year has been really good, in places it's grown 7-8 ft tall... until Otto mows it down with his tractor, you couldn't see a school bus coming to the call.
You can put your admiration away, my stubborness has faded, my lust for revenge gone, and I have surrendered to their terms.
If one of them wants me to help it commit suicide, I'll do what I can, but I'd make no promises.
Krusty
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 16, 2007, 06:12 PM:
If Krusty doesn't want to go calling then why do some insist on haranguing him into it. The man has been kicked so many times they almost took his spleen out for no reason. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Do some need to feel the glory of busting his cherry on coyotes. He doesn't have the need anymore. Do you remember your first times out when you felt the need to get one the fire that burned to get atleast ONE. Most of us still feel that need and have that fire. He apparently doesn't. His passions now, as he has stated, are his amazing callmaking ability, trapping and hunting prey species. He has a fire for that now. That is what drives him. Let him have that and quit wiping his nose in the fact that he lost the need to get that first one.
Okay, Krusty tell me to shut up and quit talking for you and how I'm wrong and Leonard tell me to quit whining. Thanks, Chris
[ July 16, 2007, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on July 16, 2007, 07:35 PM:
No pressure from me on having Krusty call a coyote. That's totally his business. My comments on the direction this thread has taken, re Western Washington, have two parts.
1. There are plenty of coyotes to call, though not nearly as many as in places like Eastern WA or Texas, etc. Private land is another matter, and mentioning that I often see coyotes was simply to say they are there. I enjoy watching them, whether I kill them or not.
2. As to it being nearly impossible to call coyotes in Western WA, that is a different statement than "I don't want to call coyotes." I don't want an argument and won't sustain one if it goes that way but I have called coyotes in Western Washington, and don't think it is terribly difficult. When I said that I haven't tried much, it doesn't mean I haven't done it. I've also called cougars, black bears, bobcats, elk and blacktail deer in the same wet jungle.
If we have a limited concept about how to call animals, maybe ideas imported from West Texas without adaption, then we can't call coyotes in Western Washington. Or rather, we won't see hardly any of the ones that come to the call. But by setting up to intentionally call critters close in jungle like settings, like Jim Corbett did with man eating tigers in India, then you can regularly call coyotes. You are not going to get big numbers because the big population isn't there nor as much easily accessible country to call, but you will get a few each winter by calling several Saturdays. And if you use a bow, you can hunt coyotes in many of the places that seem off limits. It requires a totally different style of calling than most of what you read or see on DVD's.
Re the low sage, again, that was an extreme example of how different Eastern Wa is from the wet jungle on the west side. I love the tall sage land but there are all kinds of sage heights depending mainly on water and soil quality. I lay down in six inch high sage on a half mile wide bench above the Columbia in E. Washington, with my head beside the biggest rock in half a mile, a watermelon size basalt lava chunk, and called a coyote to within 18 feet. I have a lot of calling experience in Washington, on both sides of the state.
I guess this means that I am disagreeing, gently, to the extent that I don't think all coyote callers will be locked into Krusty's bad luck in Western WA, and he has had some terrible luck.
Will try to post a photo of a wet side called coyote. Killed 15-20 yards back in the stuff across the road behind him, and brought into the open for a photo.
[ July 16, 2007, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on July 16, 2007, 08:58 PM:
I haven't seen it all... hope to someday! I've seen a bit, and it's a true fact that calling coyotes from central Western Oregon through Western Washington to Western British Columbia is just a different kettle of fish. Most guys just can't fathom 60mph highways that look like dark, green tunnels for miles and miles and miles. Imagine 160 foot tall grass with 12 foot tall moss and roots, non-stop across the landscape... you're getting the idea!
I do feel your frustration, Krusty. There are quite a few Coyotes here. But between the abundance of Sunday sportsmen, the scarcity of huntable land, the complete lack of visibility, and abundance of unsympathetic landowners (interpret: transplanted Kalifornian tree and/or bunny huggers), and lots of regulation, it's about as close to impossible as coyote calling can get. Not impossible. But close. After several years of pursuing opportunities in the area I've lived my whole life, I've secured enough spots, public and private, for maybe 5 stands. Maybe. Hard to enjoy a season with 5 stands! Then on top of that, I've called a couple into rifle range... in shotgun only areas!!!
It is frustrating. To the point that I'll throw down the bucks to drive 5 hours in live in a motel for a few days to get some productive calling in. (I've had great luck public land hunting on the dry side.)
Nobody wants to see anybody get discouraged. Especially a fellow hunter on a hunting board! But I do hear you. I haven't given up on wet side coyotes, but I do spend more energy on cats here.
What's most important HERE?!? Access to huntable lowland acreage... with coyotes on it... while they're there! (And not over on some tree-huggers property, behind their signs and fences.) Very hard to pull off.
Anyone planning a coyote calling trip to Western Washington hasn't done enough research!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 16, 2007, 09:47 PM:
Smithers,
Thanks for lookin' out for me.
You actually are not wrong, but you might have come off to some as whiny.
Okanogan,
Being as how we're "neighbors" (who've interacted on the internet, for years), and I never laid eyes on you, it's clear you don't care if I find success or not.
That's cool, I don't believe Rodney King... "No" I don't believe we can all get along.
I am not the one who claimed it was "nearly impossible". For me, or anyone else. I realize that my bad luck in not typical, just very bad.
I also never said I hadn't called any coyotes on this side of the hill.
Like you, I have called lots of "other critters" too, everyone on your list, and then some.
I just never killed any, and that's what constantly comes to question.
Somehow, and some times, I am looked at as "less than" everyone else because I haven't, and sometimes I get down on myself, and upset about it (usually when someone, who doesn't have a clue what it's like here, suggests I can do it if I just try).
I didn't learn to hunt from DVDs, and didn't see my first coyote video until I had hunted them a few years.
I've still only seen a half dozen, and rarely found enough worthy content to watch them a second time. They don't apply here, and are generally a source of further frustration.
Never heard of Jim Corbett (I have some googling to do), and I can no longer draw a bow.
You know my challenge, don't you?
If anyone can kill three coyotes, over three consecutive days, in my county, I'll eat the third one.
I haven't seen you step up on it before, and I don't expect you will be any time in the future.
That is "regularity" to me.
Rainshadow,
Are you not who I thought you were? Have we met?
Did you see the list of public areas I have hunted? I haven't found the same luck others have on public ground.
My bad luck is my own curse, gladly shared with anyone who shares a day afield with me.
Krusty
P.S. I use words like "curse" and "bad luck", but I don't believe in them, or that they are my real problem.
The real problem I have had, and continue to have, is a lack of understanding.
Understanding the coyote, understanding how to perform many of the basic hunting skills, understanding my own situation and habitat, and mostly understanding what about all of that is important and what's not.
[ July 16, 2007, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 16, 2007, 09:55 PM:
Hang in there, K.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on July 16, 2007, 10:14 PM:
Private land and attendant regulations are the biggest problem, as Rainshadow says. Anybody would be nuts to travel to western WA to call coyotes. The lowland country holds most of the yotes, especially on farms and even more in the edge of suburbs. Most land low in elevation and flat enough to build or farm has people on it, all of such land in many areas. I kind of distinguish in my mind between whether coyotes are callable in terms of possibility as opposed to callable in practical, legal terms, but it is a useless distinction. The tough calling conditions may be overcome somewhat but if you don’t have access it is moot.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on July 16, 2007, 10:29 PM:
Krusty, my oops. I missed your last post somehow before posting above. Hope I didn't come over as heartless in leaving you alone if you don't want to call coyotes anymore. Just intended not to pressure you. It's a poor man who would value anyone by whether nor not he has killed some critter or another, downright pathetic. I admire your candor.
As to the near impossible comment, I think that was Kopelelli, at least someone other than you. I was responding to several posts without going back to name who said what. Sorry for the confusion.
It takes the right sound to call a critter, but the right set up to kill him.
I'm not into challenges nor proof, etc. but am curious what county you live in if the mood should stike me this winter...
edited: Just noticed your location line is Seattle so I assume King County. Tough place to call alright.
[ July 16, 2007, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on July 16, 2007, 11:14 PM:
You'd probably need a police escort to hunt in King county!
Don't think we've met, Krusty. We may have corresponded a couple years ago about night hunting... unless there's a different Krusty too!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 16, 2007, 11:15 PM:
Okanogan,
Nope you didn't come off as heartless, I asked to be left alone, and you obliged.
I honestly appreciate it.
We can have (or should be able to) these types of discussions, without ever mentioning who does and doesn't go out and tries to apply what's been discussed.
I wouldn't say anyone is a poor man, especially among people I consider my friends.
It's natural to feel someone is inferior, when the person in question can't do something the person questioning, can do with ease.
As I said I'm known to question my own "worth" over it. I am a success oriented person, generally successful at what I do, so the lack of success in this arena is very troubling.
How could I let it bother me, that the same thing troubles others?
You did say your previous post was to address the direction the thread has taken, so I should have kept "Me" out of it, like I have asked others to do.
And my usual attempt to provide clarity, just muddles things up.
My "answers" were more intended to address the direction, and my personal connection to it, than you in particular. And you, like me, got some answers that were intended to the thread.
Because it was kind of headed off to the extreme, and not the average, of what we're up against.
We could all cite extreme examples, of good, and bad, calling (hunting/killing) situations, and callers (like me).
But that would only tend to sway the conversation from it's true course.
That's why I tried to use average examples in my photo thread, it wouldn't be fair to show a bunch of photos of abandoned replants with trees so close together you couldn't fit your head. And say "yeah it's tough here".
Krusty
P.S. It says right here under my post, Seattle, Washington.
So I live in King County.
P.P.S. Steve,
There's only ONE of me man!
Yes we did correspond on the night hunting issue, but I still assumed you were someone else.
Do you know Bearmanric personally?
That may be why I mistook you for Willie.
P.P.P.S. After a few years of trying I totally quit hunting turkeys, the last three years, but kept pickin' myself up and going back, and bagged my first bird this year.
Eventually I'll pick myself up again, because that's how I am. But I gotta do it myself.
Today ain't that day.
[ July 16, 2007, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on July 16, 2007, 11:46 PM:
Don't know Willie. Haven't met Rick. Might try to meet up with him and call for Cougs later this year, we'll see how things go. Business is extremely slow lately, so my leisure time might be nipped in the bud. (Callmaking may have to pay my office rent!) Gotta play it by ear.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 17, 2007, 12:37 AM:
Steve,
I apologize if I mistakenly connected you to either of them.
Not really sure where I got that idea from?
___________________________________________________
Does anyone else think it's odd that theres a dozen or two of us in a 100 mile circle, who know or know of each other from the internet, and yet have never met?
Before you all drop the joke on me, or the truth, whichever is your case... and say you wouldn't hunt with me... that doesn't explain the other guys.
Is anywhere else like this?
Dozens of hunters, several field staffers from predator calling equipment companies, call makers, and callers.
All (seemingly, to me) intentionally isolating themselves, from the others?
Maybe it's just the climber in me who loved the big climber's festivals, the racer in me who loved the paddock area, and the trapper who loves the rendezvous?
But I think it's weird.
_________________________________________________
*Edit: to add;
As I am winding down what's been a very long hard day (I'll relate a crazy story in a day or so), I come to a thought on the subject of importance, I thought I better share.
In discussing what's important about how we hunt, let's not forget the importance (which I may have) of why we hunt.
It's certainly not about ultimate success or failure.
It's about quality of life and time spent in it, about family, friends, and friendships.
Thanks for riding down the bumpy road with me, my friends.
(*These may be the first signs of Krusty, picking himself up, and dusting himself off)
Krusty
[ July 17, 2007, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 17, 2007, 08:32 AM:
Krusty, I do not find it strange that there are that many guys in a small area that have never met or hunted together.
The area I live in is filled to the brim with hunters of all types. The only people I have hunted with are my brother, uncle and a couple guys a few years ago I stumbled across while calling coyotes.
I prefer to hunt by myself. My connection with the outdoors is personal and I feel it is lost or diminished somewhat when there are others out there with me.
Most people I know wouldn't go through the shit I go through to get to a stand. They are like little kids,"are we there yet? When can we go home?" Loud talkers and slob hunters. They are great to hang out with OUTSIDE of the woods. If I screw something up I want it to be my fault not someone else's. I call in very few coyotes a year, 18-22, my best being 30 and and I only shoot 1 or 2 of them these days. Don't ask why I don't shoot more the answer may surprise or aggrevate you. Some don't take calling in predators or prey as seriously as others and the experience of being outdoors is different from one person to the next. I have found a circle of one to work best for me. Maybe others find that they like it that way as well.
[ July 17, 2007, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2007, 09:08 AM:
I, on the other hand much prefer predator hunting with a partner.
What sort of latent tendencies that indicates, I couldn't tell ya?
But, a partner can hold one end of a driveshaft, in case you need to remove it and get home in front wheel drive. A partner can shovel snow while you go between forward and reverse. A partner can go for help if you fall off a ledge and break a leg. And, a partner can kill whatever shows up on his side....all good talents.
But, a good partner is damned hard to find.
A good female partner is especially hard to find, as they come in handy for dragging animals and such.
Good hunting. LB
[ July 17, 2007, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on July 17, 2007, 09:36 AM:
Krusty, No apology necessary... unless the association was negative, then by all means, apology happily accepted!
I agree with Smithers more than Leonard, probably because it's really hard to find a hunting partner that is sympatico. A skilled hunter, one that hunts your style, in this steep country hunts your speed, knows when to shut up, knows when to speak up... etc. Solo is just easier, and it's a more meaningful connection to Creature and Creation when you're alone.
As to why the forum guys in a particular location often don't meet face to face, I think there's tons of factors involved... most of them lending themselves to not connecting. For instance, when I'm over your way, I can't leave fast enough! It's not you, it's your neighbors. All, what, 2.5 million of them?!?! All driving down I5, and 167, and 16 all at the same time! I can't WAIT to get back out on the Peninsula! That and six dozen other things.
If we had an organized local get together centered around hunting, I'd try to make it.
[ July 17, 2007, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: rainshadow1 ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 17, 2007, 10:36 AM:
Krusty; Did you ever find out when & where the trapping convention up there will be??
Everyone could join hands and sing Kum-Bay-Ah to the tune of an open reed.
I've still got some places on the maps I'd like to show you.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 17, 2007, 11:17 AM:
quote:
don't know of anywhere with low growing sage, all the scablands I have called, the brush was nearly as tall as I am.
Gloyd Seeps, the Potholes, Frenchman's Coulee, Winchester Wasteway, Horse Heaven Hills, Ancient Lakes/Quincy, LT Murray (Sheep Company, The Cottonwoods, Moonshine Ridge, Gnat Flat, Umptanum, Durr Rd, Mt Clifty etc), the Clockum, Swanson Lakes, Vantage, Lower Crab Creek Colombia Basin Wildlife area... and many more "desert locales", have seen my presence.
Krusty, those of us that have hunted these same areas and have had success, have offered help because we believe you are probably doing something wrong if you haven't killed a coyote. In some ways I think you agree with that since you posted this quote quote:
But, if I am lacking in all the other skills needed, no amount of confidence, and no individual call design or sound can guarantee ultimate success (ie. a dead predator).
That is why you have had continuous offers of help.
To answer your original question I find it tough to apply percentages. Someone stated that calling them in and killing them are two different things, and I totally agree. Concealment, setting up with the wind, having a good idea of where they will come from, limiting movement, and approach to your stand, are more important to killing a coyote, than calling one in.
I rate location the number one in your list due when talking about increasing your chances of success. Finding out where they linger during daylight hours, what there main food source is, and denning areas during the season is vitally important.
I rate sound extremely high in certain situations, ie: visually spotting a coyote and being able to go through several sounds to find one in which they respond, sounding as realistic as possible to help fool a larger population of coyotes and not just the young ones, and when relocating to try to call back a coyote that you may have spooked as they came in.
This past week I have made four stands. The first I called a 23 lb male to 15 yards in sparse pine forest. I had the wind in my favor, I approched the stand in the opposite direction the coyote came in, I have killed coyotes there in the past, and had confidence in the sounds I was using. I used a howl, followed by a chirp to bring him in. Since it was 75 degrees at 5 in the morning I was in a camo t-shirt and light camo pants. My arms, face, and hands were all exposed but I had my back to a tree and was motionless during his approach. In this example I would rate location #1, woodsmanship #2, and sounds #3.
Three days later I made a stand in medium timber where an approach was usually heard before it was seen. At the 4 minute mark I had a coyote come in directly to my right. I couldn't see it until it was about 25 yards away. I could not move without spooking it. At 15 yards it hit my scent trail and did a 180. I could not get it to reappear using a variety of sounds, and when I got it to stop on it's way out the vitals were covered by brush. I continued calling in the direction it had left and heard a sound behind me. A coyote was approaching about 30 yards behind and above my location. I moved to soon, when I thought it was looking the other way and it spun and was behind cover before I could get on it. Knowing there were at least two coyotes in the area, I silently relocated to a clearing about a 150 yards away. I used a sound I hadn't used on the previous stand and 10 minutes later had a big male on my left at about 40 yards. He saw me turn my head, but was looking directly into the sun. I slowly moved my rifle around after I lipsqueeked and he started moving again. At 25 yards I stopped him and he weighed in at 31 lbs with a pretty reddish coat and a white tipped tail...too bad it wasn't 20 degrees out instead of 80. So on the first stand location was #1 to have coyotes in the area, woodsmanship/concealment is #2, since those caused me to blow my chance at both coyotes, and sounds were #3. At the relocated stand, Sounds were #1, concealment #2, and woodsmanship #3 in being able to kill the coyote. I pulled location out of there since it was a nonfactor because I knew at least two coyotes were in the area.
Another stand after that one was dry, except for a nice little 2-point at 15 yards, wondering what all the commotion was about. Location was #1 factor for that stand, since I knew I was concealed, and my sounds had already brought in a coyote.
There was a hayfield across the road (No hunting signs are in place)when I pulled up to the area I hunted that day. A large coyote (around 40 lbs) was about 300 yards away when I glassed it from the truck. I blew a chirp and he didn't even look in my direction. I blew a short quiet rabbit, and he looked once and trotted the other way. I blew a challenge howl and he stopped and another coyote I could not see started howling back about 1/2 mile away. That indicated to me that the sound you are using is important in getting the coyote to react.
This is about as long-winded as I get, but since I haven't posted in a while, I had a lot of typing saved up.
A quick question about your challenge, would you extend that to Pierce County as well (I have access to land there) If so, I may make a special trip out there, just in the spirit of competition. I agree with Otto, Okanagan, and Rainforest that it is a waste of time to plan a trip to Western Washington to call coyotes, but you may see one when calling bears, cougars, bobcats, or coons.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 17, 2007, 11:21 AM:
Smithers,
I have gotten to where I feel like you do, in some ways.
If I am alone I am the only one to blame for any mistakes.
But I started hunting again, because I was tired of climbing solo, so I do miss the company at times.
Even if we can't go into the woods together, it's too bad many of us have to be so "unfriendly" to one another (and I share my part of that, so again it's the other guys that puzzle me).
Leonard,
I good partner is indeed dang hard to find, especially around here.
Hmmm Admin in training... no thank you! I wouldn't want to run this circus!
Steve,
First and foremost I apologize for my mistake, for not doing a better job of figuring out who you really are.
Hopefully not dragging this into the mud... I'll just say that my own personal interaction with Willie and Rick, hasn't been real positive.
That said, if I'd known who you aren't, I'd have been much more friendly towards you.
And I kinda feel bad about that.
Kokopelli,
I thought I already posted the dates?
Krusty
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on July 17, 2007, 11:22 AM:
I think I agree Krusty, if one defines success or failure of a hunt as getting an animal, they are missing out.
There are lots of rewards besides taking game.
Carl
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 17, 2007, 12:20 PM:
TL,
I was writing when you posted.
Many who have hunted those same areas have tried to help, and said I wasn't doing anything wrong, when we hunted IN those areas.
I don't need or want to be talked down to, maybe that's why I never accepted your arrogant offers of "salvation".
And these offers were far from "continuous", from you or anyone else. (*you haven't been around for 7 months, let alone the 7 years I have struggled)
For three years I made a complete ass, and a nuisance of myself, begging and demanding for help.
I could find none, mostly because I was an ass.
Once I did find competent help, I was told I didn't really need it, and they were baffled at how we could have gotten skunked.
Not once or twice, but a dozen or more days afield, with half a dozen or more "helpers".
To me this situation is like if I had stood at the base of El Capitan, begging climbers as they came by to "take me" up the wall...
So I sat at the base and gained knowledge and advice, by talking to experienced climbers.
Once I had gained enough basic knowledge, I started off climbing all by myself. And I learned more, the hard way, as I climbed.
Now that I am 100 feet from the top of a huge undertaking, and I am laying here trying to regain a head of steam... I have guys like you shouting advice I no longer WANT or need, and offering to drop me a rope and pull me up.
No thank you.
Right now I do not care that I have failed, and I don't care if I ever do succeed.
IT'S ONLY IMPORTANT TO YOU!
IF I bother to, I want to finish this, in my own time, and on my own terms.
It certainly won't be in a place, or at a time, when an otherwise valuable pelt is worthless.
Krusty
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2007, 12:35 PM:
I'm sure this shit is painful to some readers and I apologize.
Krusty, do you think we have had enough with the self analysis, for a bit?
Just trying to help.
edit: (don't feel you need to respond)
[ July 17, 2007, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 17, 2007, 12:51 PM:
Leonard,
Yes we have.
I am walking away from this now. (*hopefully without anymore outside analysis, or invitations)
Krusty
[ July 17, 2007, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2007, 02:26 PM:
big group hug; bigger sigh of relief
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 17, 2007, 02:48 PM:
Krusty - I'll keep this short and reply to you like a too sensitive woman, because that is how you are acting. First of all I made a couple offers to come hunting with me if you were in the area. Same offer I have made others who are friends. You may teach me something, or you may learn something, and either way it could have been an enjoyable time to get out in the woods. Frankly, I could care less if you kill a coyote, so it does not matter to me one way or another. The only thing it would accomplish is the board could experience an enjoyable, well written post instead of whining and pessimism. I have lived and hunted the west side and know it is probably the toughest conditions you could ask for when hunting coyotes in regards to terrain.
Those that are encouraging you and offering help would most likely appreciate a "thanks for the offer". There is a delineation between offering help and talking down to someone. Clearly, you have trouble understanding the difference, and that is an issue you will need to work through on your own.
In case your wondering this post is talking down to you and telling you to grow a set. I would also say this to a close friend, or someone I cared about, if they were acting the way you are. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 18, 2007, 04:50 AM:
Good grief...
A complete waste of five minutes, skimming this. And I swear, I've read it all a couple of times before?
"Those that are encouraging you and offering help would most likely appreciate a "thanks for the offer"."
I guess you have NOT read this all a couple of times before .
- DAA
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 18, 2007, 07:33 AM:
"Feels like the first time, feels like the very first time!"
Apparently THEBRADFORD is not familiar with his literary work, I'm a big fan.
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on July 25, 2007, 09:42 PM:
What is most important, in my humble opinion, is first and foremost to get out there. Everything else devolves from that. Even if you go out and do everything possible wrong, hopefully you learn from the experience. Even complete and absolute failure can be useful and instructive.
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on July 26, 2007, 05:18 AM:
Dear Abby, All the skills and equipment in the world are not as important as access and opportunity.Both can be hard to come by.When I have called in private areas with no pressure almost anything works as long as I get off my dead butt and get out and do it.All the speculation in the world won't get it done otherwise. Gentle reader.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 26, 2007, 06:23 AM:
Good post 6mm284. Our friend over at Shelby tells me that your biggest problem is in hitting the coyotes that you shoot at?
Lord, I apologize for that right up there and please be with the starving pygmies---Amen
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on July 27, 2007, 08:39 AM:
Rich, glad to see your reply.My first shot often seems to be just a warning shot just to make sure they are running fast before they get "mertered". take care.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 27, 2007, 05:22 PM:
You guys shoot at coyotes? Eeeeegads! I thought all of you called them in to gawk at them all pie-eyed, like me.
Do you shoot them for food or what? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ July 27, 2007, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 27, 2007, 07:18 PM:
Smithers,
Sigmund Freud would probably describe coyote hunting as a way that married men relieve sexual frustration.
The more sexually frustrated a man is, the more he feels the need to kill something. Rather than kill his wife ( Who is responsible for his frustrations ) he goes out and kills a few coyotes.
The more frustrated a man is, the more frequently he has to hunt. That should also explain why some guys only hunt the winter months, and some guys get an ADC job.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on July 28, 2007, 05:47 AM:
Thats funny right there, I don't care who you are!
But in reality it's the other idiots I have to deal with in life that drive me to kill. The kid at the tire shop, after you have been there 3 times to get the same slow leak fixed. The clerk at the convenience store, that can't find your brand of chew in the rack, even though you can see it right in front of them. The guy working the counter at McDonalds, that can only speak good enough english to ask if you want a hot apple pie with that. Insurance salesmen.
Telemarketers. Dial Up internet. The guy at the sporting goods store that knows too much. Turkey hunting on TV. The list is endless.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2007, 09:07 AM:
Good post, 3T. I can relate to every one of those examples. So, that's why I do it? Interesting.....
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on July 28, 2007, 05:23 PM:
I like the oooooohhhhhhhhhh shit look in there eyes........Leonard how was the lake??
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2007, 05:55 PM:
ah yes. The lake. Relearning how to wind down and take it easy. LB
Posted by 22-250 (Member # 36) on July 28, 2007, 10:12 PM:
Leonard,
Are you taking your RV on the September hunt?? It a lot better than a four-man tent we had for the last two years.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2007, 11:01 PM:
First of all, it's not mine, the guy in the red shirt is my nephew. Second, the campout is going to be in October, not September. Third, you are such a whiner!
But, really, what happened with the big wedding, Dad? Can you still afford to go hunting this year?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on July 29, 2007, 08:32 AM:
What is most important?
It's not the gun, the wind, the scouting or anything tangible.
It's persistance.
P.S. Great photos Leonard. Looks like a great time.
[ July 29, 2007, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: The Outdoor Tripp ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 29, 2007, 12:27 PM:
I have to disagree with you Tripp. If you are correct, Krusty would be the most successful caller here.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2007, 12:37 PM:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve25MjGrVAs
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 29, 2007, 08:45 PM:
Rich, from the looks of the video you should go pee before you start your lecture. All that pacing back and forth was making me dizzy.
3 Toes, my wife would agree with you on needing to get out and kill things year round. I get pretty grumpy if I can't get out of the house.
Come to think of it, my wife would probably agree with Tim too. How unfortunate for me.
[ July 29, 2007, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: tlbradford ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2007, 09:40 PM:
Yeah, but Larry the Cable Guy works the stage the same way, and he's almost as entertaining as Rich.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 30, 2007, 06:52 AM:
His howls do have that lttle extra sense of urgency to them. Maybe that's his secret.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 30, 2007, 08:17 AM:
Did someone step on a chihuahua while Rich H was pacing? Or were they thumping a giant rubber band.......? Kicking a duck?
That's Les Johnson! Wearing a white t-shirt during summer in the middle of desert! His technique is so Less Is More he can do whatever he wants. Seems like he'd be a great guy to hang out with.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 30, 2007, 02:00 PM:
tlbradford, the howling that you hear in the youtube clip was not me, it was from a fellow that was selling howlers and calls from a vendors table and he did that squalling throughout all three seminars.
BTW thank you for the advice to pee first. I will do so in the future and think of you.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2007, 02:40 PM:
That is so Gay!
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 30, 2007, 05:14 PM:
Sigmund Freud would probably describe coyote hunting as a way that married men relieve sexual frustration.
Ol' Siggy had more than a couple of sick thoughts rolling around in that head of his. Everything involved sex in some form or fashion with him.
Freud would prolly have something to say about the subtle gaiety of thinking about another man's advice on urination...
BOO!
What a prick!
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 30, 2007, 08:41 PM:
That is all I could ask for, but you may have to explain that big grin to the guy standing next to you at the urinal.
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on July 30, 2007, 09:07 PM:
Rich,
Persistance alone doesn't get the job done.
But without persistance you'll never learn or achieve what else is needed to get the job done.
So we can agree to disagree. I stand by my earlier statement.
Now keep at it Krusty!!
[ July 30, 2007, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: The Outdoor Tripp ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2007, 09:28 PM:
You disagree with Rich Higgins? Our Rich Higgins?
This Rich Higgins?
Rich Higgins PAKMAN GURU & CELEBRITY ADMINISTRATOR
Member # 3
This has never happened before, I hope the earth doesn't spin off it's axis?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 31, 2007, 06:41 AM:
The grin will appear when I flush.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 31, 2007, 06:44 AM:
wow
you have flush toilets? what part a Mesa you livin in?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2007, 09:15 AM:
Paul, did you get my email? Contact me, please!
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 31, 2007, 02:38 PM:
Leonard
No email I can find Im at
bigroom55@msn.com
Never mind I found it in the bottom of my restricted junk mail
[ July 31, 2007, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2007, 04:01 PM:
Don't blame me, it was Dusty's subject! But, I got your reply, thanks. LB
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