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Author
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Topic: What is most important?
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 12, 2007 09:36 PM
In another thread I said "It's not the call you use, or the sound you make with it, that leads to ultimate success. ...It takes a lot more than that to make a successful stand."
I screwed up quoting myself, but the basic point I was making is that there are many other factors in selecting and making stands that are more important than sound.
Here's the basis for my theory;
If I am quiet, on a stand, and don't make any calling sound at all there's still a chance I could kill a coyote, if all my other hunting skills are sharp, and I wait long enough.
But, if I am lacking in all the other skills needed, no amount of confidence, and no individual call design or sound can guarantee ultimate success (ie. a dead predator).
Hundreds of big game hunters, killing predators with "shots of opportunity", and hundreds of bumbling idiots like myself, failing to succeed despite how great the calls they use, prove my point.
How do you rate the importance of the call you use, and the sound you make, compared to "everything else"... location, terrain, climate, wind, camo, stealth, shooting proficiency, etc?
What is most important to you?
What are the ones you'd be screwed without?
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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canine
Knows what it's all about
Member # 687
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posted July 12, 2007 09:50 PM
Krusty
To me it all is important and not one step supercedes another.
I have seen to many coyotes ignore several sounds and then hit them with choice number 4 or so and it's on!
I see your point but I believe sounds do have a great importance, maybe not so the actual sound but rather tha cadence to the sound and pitch.
I have been on many stands that go for 20 plus minutes, just knowing a coyote is in hearing distance and when we get to the pup distress at the end of a stand, like a flash there they are comin our way. Sure some can argue that it may have been the sound before, but, to many times, that pup howl and pup distress at the end of a stand brings em runnin.
JD
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Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
Posts: 162 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2005
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted July 12, 2007 11:35 PM
Krusty,
IMO the set up in relation to wind, terrain, vegetation and light is by far the most important, assuming you can make any of a range of acceptable calls, that you are reasonably quiet and can hit a standing coyote inside of 100 yards.
People call critters to photograph also so I'm not going to rate shooting ability except to say that a man shouldn't go hunting unless he can hit reasonable targets with his equipment.
Of the calling factors, I'd give set-up 60%, call sounds 30% and camo, silence, not moving etc. 10% on coyotes, bobcats, foxes, all kinds of deer, bears, moose and elk.
For cougars, rachet the not moving on stand up to 40% if you have to see him for the call to count. Give the set up 40%, call sound 10% and divvy the last 5% into camo, silent approach, etc. Sound is more important than 10% but it is way less important than set up and not moving on stand for big cats.
In set-up I'm including wind direction, light, terrain and vegetation. You set up in relation to these things and that is the most crucial aspect to seeing the animals we call.
I'll be interested in what others say. I conciously set up to call animals pretty close, often in heavier cover than other people call, and my set ups reflect that style. I hunt mostly on the wet side of the Cascades, have hunted a lot on the Olympic Penninsula.
Calling critters is easy. Seeing the ones we call is the hard part.
[ July 12, 2007, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 13, 2007 06:41 AM
On an animal as capable of thwarting your every effort as Bre'r Coyote, it's ll important. Not sure how I would quantify each in order of importance, but to do the job consistently, you have to be moderately good at every stage.
You have to be able to select the best stand site, given ambient conditions and your knowledge of coyotes and how they work the area where you find yourself.
You have to know how to get from the truck to that site with the least disturbance. Too many newbs seriously underrate this part of the show, leaving an unproductive stand and blaming the call they used rather than realizing that they screwed themselves before they drew the first breath.
You have to know the sounds that produce results. It may not be a text book cottontail scream. Understanding and exploiting the fact that at certain times of the year, certain sounds work better than others and in areas of overuse, other sounds are just plain counterproductive. What you regard as a good sound may be completely different than what your target thinks sounds appealing. Success depends upon knowing the difference.
Being able to shoot helps, assuming you're in it to close the deal. Putting the coyote on the red X without blowing your cover, then getting the gun up and getting a shot at anything short of a full out runner is a real challenge for some people. For others? Not so much.
Personally, I think the single most significant reason for failures amongst new callers is a result of their naive unwillingness to do the work, put forth the effort, and expend the energy required to really, and I mean REALLY know and understand their prey. The more you know and understand about coyotes -their behavior, their social structure, and their day to day lives where you hunt - and the more you're able to exploit that knowledge and apply it to real life hunting situations, the more successful you'll be on a consistent basis. Time and agin, when asked a question about a particular situation where a rookie caller failed, or made a critical mistake that cost them fur, I can explain where I think things went wrong and why citing their failure to work within the confines of specific and well known coyote behaviors. For a lot of you guys, these details are now intuitive borne of years of experience. We don't even consciously think of them when setting up. The silent side of our brains is doing the work for us without being overtly called to duty. But, for new guys, they're just not to that point yet. Through failure and opportunity, if they choose to stick with it, they'll eventually round the learning curve and get 'er done. If you don't believe me, take the time this season and explain to someone or even yourslef why you chose spot "A" over any other spot "B", call "A" over any other call "B", and so on and so forth. When you have to put that information in an article, you quickly realize the volumes of information you consider in a blink of an eye, most of which is attributed to "it just feels right".
The "must-have" thing I can't call without? My knowledge of coyote behavior. Without that, the guns and calls become much less useful.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 75
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posted July 13, 2007 07:12 AM
What is most important..as O'Gorman would say "Stand Pickin".
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
Posts: 224 | From: Clancy Montana | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 13, 2007 07:53 AM
Just my humble opinion, but I think that the importance of each componant of the art and science of calling coyotes is dynamic and changes constantly over the course of a stand.
1. SOUND and all of the variables associated with it, volume, appeal of distress which includes pain,terror, and despair are the most important element at the beginning of the stand when the coyote is distant and out of sight.
2. When the coyote commits to the sound and begins his approach, SET-UP and all of its variables such as visibilty, concealment, wind and shade become the most important.
3. When the coyote is in good visual range and focused on the location of the sound CAMO becomes most important.
4. When the coyote has approached as close as you want it, then your ability to HANDLE the coyote becomes most important.
5. When you decide to stroke the trigger MARKSMANSHIP becomes most important.
6.When the gamewarden demands your license that you left at home, then Leonard's sense of humor becomes most important.
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted July 13, 2007 07:58 AM
I am not an expert and prolly should not respond but here is one thing that happened to me last year in Montana.
I was on a high hill over looking a coulee that went about a mile to the west and opened up with a creek in the bottom, it is about 3/4 mile wide, to the east it narrows to 500 yards. I set out the loudmouth and tried rabbit duet, 3 coyotes came up the bottom from the west to about 6-800 yards and started sort of milling around but not coming closer.
I tried deathlip on the loudmouth, nothing. I tried red fox pup distress and the came in a little,seemed interested. I went to my KKrier to what I call pup distress, high pitched, raspy, little yelps barks,
Those suckers came on the run!! got two
After wards I went back, walked all around the area, checked the wind and my stand hide from many angles. I was on top of the hill peeking over the edge, well concealed, the wind, light from west to east crossing my position, enough cover in the bottom to conceal the yotes but with open patches. The caller was lower and to the east slightly.50 yards away.
The next stand narrow coulee, little hill to my right, coyote came in around the hill into the wind, crossing from left to right. we saw each other at the same time,50 yards, we both froze, after a few minutes he turned his head into the wind, I slowly raised rifle and got him. KKrier, pup distress, bad concealment due to short grass. Next stand I was on one side of big coulee calling up a small side coulee, caller 25 yards to my left, wind left to right, red fox pup and mixed in KKrier pup sounds. coyote came in , busted me, froze at 30 yards. got away. good concealment.
On the first stand it was the sound that closed the deal. everything else was good, approach etc. 2nd stand I got lucky, should have set caller further away, hid better, did not anticipate approach route. 3rd. stand I was stupid and lazy, caller too close, bad angle, did not think about approach, did not think about getting shooting angle or that if the coyote looked at the caller it would be looking at me too.
Last make sure there are coyotes there, I called lots of spots that looked like good places, but there was no sign/ no yotes.
I dont think there is a "most important" you must do iit all right. Call where they are, sneak in use contour to hide, walk a ways get away from truck and roads, camo well, sit still, anticipate approach and shot angle, try to get yote to look at anything but you(this year I am trying turkey feathers on light line hanging by the caller), experiment with sounds, use the wind, adapt to the situation you are in, start sneaking when you leave the truck not when you are close to the stand site.
anyway thats my meager knowledge.
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 13, 2007 08:24 AM
That's all good contributions, above. Interesting that Krusty doesn't place much importance on the ability to add, but what the hey; I'll never be a rich man, either.
I like Higgins angle, putting all those important elements in order.
Of course, bofire has the right idea in the first place...how can you go wrong when you selected Montana?
One thing not actually mentioned by Lance, but I'm sure he knows it's a part of planning for success is which way you sit down and swing a rifle, pretty automatic thing; but you need to relearn it now and then.
There are decisions made before, during and after the stand that make a difference, including how much time you devote. Lot's of ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 13, 2007 11:48 AM
Defintely, Leonard. Since I shoot "wrong" handed, I usually set up looking/ quartering to the left of where I WAG he'll show up since I can swing to the right the best. I always have to remember to ask anybody I hunt with how they shoot so I can remember to put them on my left for the same reason (if they shoot right handed). Just an example of one of those brazillion things you do but don't think about on every stand.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted July 13, 2007 03:28 PM
90% call where there is a willing participant "ie the varmint" and ten percent the other stuff. Guy can look like a real pro when there's plenty of dumb ones.
Sorry, just felt like being an a-hole.
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted July 13, 2007 04:11 PM
quote:
"It's not the call you use, or the sound you make with it, that leads to ultimate success. ...It takes a lot more than that to make a successful stand."
I with ya Krusty,
Things I think that can bring percentage's down from not being success in the field to being successful
Woodsmanship = 60% of success
knowing your pray = about 25%
calling abilities = about 15%
luck = 5%
[ July 13, 2007, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted July 13, 2007 05:43 PM
I would also agree Stand selection is most important, everything else will just fall into place after a little exsperiance...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5615 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted July 13, 2007 06:42 PM
quote:
90% call where there is a willing participant
I can't dispute that kind of logic. If they're not there, everything else is a waste of time.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 13, 2007 07:37 PM
But if they (predators) are there, and you screw any or all of the other things up, there's no use in calling.
At that point, the call you use and the sound you make with it, had NOTHING to do with your failure, and can do nothing "magical" to bring success back out of the jaws of defeat.
Otto didn't find instant success because he used a Krusty Krier, he found it because "he had it in him".
He's a proficient experienced hunter, he used the wind and terrain, cover and camo, to his advantage, in a place where there were receptive coyotes.
Once ALL that was in place, he was able to make an effective sound that brought a coyote into sight and/or gun range.
And my opinion is that he could have made an "effective sound" with any call, his lips or voice, or a can of beans and a fork (eh Leonard?), because everything else was already right.
Krusty
P.S. I didn't start this thread for me, at Rich's suggestion it was started merely for the purpose of discussion.
P.P.S. Canine, and Bofire,
If you each have this sound you are both sure is somehow so "special", why do you wait 'til the end of a stand to use it?
Why would you ever even use any other sound?
Weren't you confident in the sound you started with?
Where did that confidence go, and was it replaced with new confidence, or did it come in with the coyote?
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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KevinKKaller
Knows what it's all about
Member # 559
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posted July 13, 2007 08:15 PM
Krusty
Take me up on my offer this winter?
I may be abol to help piece some of the questions together
I will be up thear any way
Good hunting Kevin
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Maker of K-Kalls
Posts: 126 | From: Idaho | Registered: Feb 2005
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canine
Knows what it's all about
Member # 687
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posted July 13, 2007 08:29 PM
Good question Krusty.
My reason is because I am setting up a scenario for the coyotes. Goes kinda like this.
Start stand with a lone howl= Strange coyote In area. Territorial, curiosity responses
Go with Rabbit distress= Strange coyote eating my food. Territorial, curiosity, hunger
No commitment from Rabbit , go to bird, fawn, somethin to get a response.territorial, curiosity, hunger
If still no response then hit them with a high pitched howl..pause... deeper toned cut off howl..then pup distress. Makin the coyote think that stranger may be possibly whippin up on pack member. Territorial response.
Come late december through march I mostly only use pup distress and howls. The competition by this time have wised up or educated or learned them by a conditioned response that prey sounds could be bad. So pup distress and howling are my main sounds.Territorial and breeding responses.
JD
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Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
Posts: 162 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2005
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 13, 2007 08:43 PM
I am impressed that George a Gives 105% at every stand!
If I am cold calling the most important part for me is stand selection and getting in undetected.
You can pretty much figure out what calls, sounds and stands you want to use beforehand when calling a spot you are very familiar with. The only variables then become wind, weather, time of day and season. Four very important factors but very easy to overcome with a little forethought.
Are they starving or just hungry, breeding, on the move or laying up? These four help in determining what sounds I will more than likely try.
Second and third guessing has cost me a couple of easy lay ups in the past, so now I go with my original plan of attack and adapt only when they dictate I do so.
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 13, 2007 09:03 PM
"P.S. I didn't start this thread for me, at Rich's suggestion it was started merely for the purpose of discussion."
Kevin,
We haven't established there are any answers that I am looking for, I know what I think is important and not much can change my mind.
THE most important factor of all is a CALLABLE population of coyotes, with callable as the master key.
I already explained that I think your offer is too generous. So is Mercer's, and Carl's, and Dusty's... etc.
(*Edit, nothing I could learn on one of these trips would produce a callable population, or reduce the pressure on the existing population, at home
You can give a man a fish, or you can teach him to fish... but if he lives in the desert fishing isn't a very valuable skill, now is it?)
I've come a long long ways, mostly on my own, and I have gotten my ass fully kicked.
At this point if I ever do pick myself up, dust myself off, and try to finish it, I am going to finish it alone.
But I am staying down, and letting the count run, for a while.
And I just might be whipped.
Today, I have absolutely no intention of going calling in the future, near or far.
Krusty
[ July 13, 2007, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 14, 2007 01:07 AM
and, I have no knowledge of your inability to count percentages. Please forgive my error, and quit sending me whiny ass emails! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 14, 2007 09:48 AM
Seeing as our administrator has taken a leave of absence, mentally, for a bit. I'll have to ask you to take any off topic conversation to e-mail. Thanks INTERIM SELF-APPOINTED, SELF-INDULGENT PAKMANASS WANNABE KNOW NOTHING AT ALL MANAGEMENT. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ July 14, 2007, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted July 14, 2007 10:34 AM
Very good post,Rich Higgins,clear down to,Leonards sense of humor.That one alone could get me out of trouble with the game warden,he to has a sense of humor.
In my enviroment of calling.I considder everything i do,got to be 100%
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 14, 2007 11:16 AM
I DID NOT LEAVE MY ABSENCE ANYWHERE, SMAKMAN.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 14, 2007 11:42 AM
110%
Ya know, this is one of my pet peaves.
You hear athletes say "I give it 110%!", this is BS because there's no such thing as "more than 100%".
If you take a 5 gallon bucket, and pour 100% of it's capacity in it (5 gallons), and then you pour another 10% (1/2 gallon) the bucket still only has 5 gallons in it.
The best analogy I know of, for the way you think about a stand, is Keith Code's "10 dollar bill".
(*Keith Code teaches motorcycle racing schools, and when I was an student then later an instructor, for a local school, we used his course material)
You have 10 dollars worth of "attention", everything you do cost you some of your attention.
Some things you don't think you think about still drain your 10 dollar bill.
Like in calling, some things are cheap (reflex actions), but other things are expensive (multiples, long shots).
When you are green, you'll run out of money all the time, and if you're smart you'll learn to spend your money more wisely in the future.
When you are well seasoned you'll have money left over, like driving down the freeway not really paying but pennies worth of attention, but still not at risk.
Leonard,
I sent an e-mail, because I didn't want to point out my own mistake.
I thought I missed a joke, and HAD actually made a mistake in my math somewhere (like in counting Otto's coyotes).
I'm dyslexic, that kinda thing happens without even noticing it.
My e-mail was only six (of my) words, "Say what? I'm not following you.", I have no clue where you got "whiny" from confused?
You are right though, I don't place much importance on the ability to add (I'm not good at it myself).
And I have to disagree, I think you are a rich man, and I have riches of my own that didn't require math to get.
Krusty
P.S. The e-mail I sent you was right when I got back from the vet, so maybe you are just very intuitive, and felt my pain?
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Otto
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1469
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posted July 14, 2007 03:21 PM
what a wealth of info gathered from this thread!
Thanks! and keep it up!
Posts: 11 | From: NW Washington | Registered: Jun 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 14, 2007 04:11 PM
See, it costs you nothing to get all knowed up!
Is this a great country, or what?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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