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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 08:08 AM:
 
My apologies if you have discussed this previously and I missed it but this is an important topic that everyone can benefit from.

How fast do you believe most coyotes are running, in MPH, that are running away from you AND WHY do you believe that?

Are you guessing or do you know for sure?

If you don't know for sure, don't answer. If you've ever timed their speed by how far they traveled in a certain amount of time, I want to hear your answer.

I'm not talking about coyotes you are chasing with a pickup or coyotes that are kicking it into high gear to beat you across a road. Naturally each of those situations will result in more speed from the coyote. I'm talking about most coyotes in OPEN COUNTRY that are running away from you after the shot most of which will be running at a 45 degree angle or less.

Why do I ask?

Because Tom Schimd recently sent me an excellent article on leading running coyotes which is something I had previously discussed with some of our other ADC trappers and I'd like to get a better handle on leading running coyotes at various angles and speeds.

For leading a running coyote the formula is: Time of bullet's flight in fractions of a second, times the coyote's speed (in feet per sec. FPS) which gives you the lead (in feet). Change yards to feet; change mph to fps: 35 mph X's 1.466 = 51.33 fps target speed. At 150 yards, bullet flight time, .144 of a sec X's 51.33 fps 'right angle' deer or coyote speed = 7.4 foot lead ahead of the chest, or about one deer length for the 'vital kill zone fron half' of the trophy buck.

Swing through the middle of the body and center of the neck, squeeze off your shot when the lead looks right, and be sure to keep swinging, -- follow through! Then witness them dropping in their tracks, sometimes before your scope's field of view.

MPH to FPS conversion: [MPH times 1.4666 equals FPS]

Coyote @ 200 yards moving @ 20mph / 29.3 fps times bullet flight time of .166/sec = 4.8 foot lead ahead of the vital target area. This is using the .243 Win., Nosler bullet with Ballistic Coefficient. .276; bullet flight time is .166 of sec.//coyote running only 20 mph = 29.33 fps x .166 of sec., = lead 4.8 feet or less than one coyote length in front of the vital rib cate target area.

Here is the breakdown of MPH to FPS conversion for various coyote speeds....

35 MPH = 51.3 FPS
30 MPH = 44 FPS
25 MPH = 36.6 FPS
20 MPH = 29.3 FPS

Bullet flight time of 3700 fps = .162/sec @ 200 yards. 3700 fps bullet velocity / 600 ft (300 yards) = .162

Coyote @ 200 yards running at a 90 degree angle moving @ 25mph / 36.6 fps times bullet flight time of .162/sec = 5.9 foot lead.

If that same coyote was running at a 45 degree angle, how much would it change the lead?

Would it be half (3')?

~SH~

[ April 08, 2007, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on April 08, 2007, 09:06 AM:
 
Would it be half (3')?

No. Useing your numbers and if my math is right it would take 4.1 feet of lead to get you on fur.
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on April 08, 2007, 09:11 AM:
 
They all die, never had one run away. just kidding of course. Good question, I'll be watching for some answers.

[ April 08, 2007, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 08, 2007, 10:04 AM:
 
Pretty complex math to do while in the intuitive act of swinging a rifle on a coyote. With moving targets, using the tables should provide some fun and valuable practice.

Chasing coyotes with a vehicle is outside of your query but it does give an idea of max speed. I’ve run over and killed two that tried to outrun me down a smooth dirt road. As I recall all it took was 35 mph to kill the one I clocked, so he wasn’t going quite that fast, though I’d chased him about 75-100 yards by then and his initial burst may have slowed, or he may have been a slow individual. I’ve clocked jack rabbits top end from 37 to 45 mph, so different individuals have different top speed, as we’d expect.

I rarely shoot at a running critter anymore, but none of the formulas worked for me when I did. Apparently my intuitive style is to swing faster because I’ve hit coyotes, elk and deer when they were on a dead run and always hit exactly where the bead or the cross hairs were when the sear broke. When I consciously lead, I shoot in front of the animal. Others, who are better shots than I am, consciously lead animals. I asked an expert shot about it and he said that I was swinging fast enough to give the right amount of lead, and not to think it through too much nor change as long as it was working.

I shot at several animals with a recurve bow, instinctive shooting, and was pleasantly surprised that without thought, the arrow and the critter would arrive at the same spot. I simply looked at the critter and shot at him, whether he was standing still or moving. On one running coyote, as the arrow left the bow I gasped at how far ahead of the animal, maybe 25 feet, the arrow was headed. At the release it seemed way too far ahead but they converged perfectly.

Your calculations are interesting and useful, and I've copied the formula and table. The brain is a pretty good computer for calculating lead however, if we practice enough to calibrate it. I don’t practice enough and prefer close shots at standing critters so I pass most other shots nowadays.

An anecdote on un-lead: A coyote broadside at 110 yards, trotting slowly. With a 6mm Remington and 75 grain bullet I put the cross hairs on his shoulder and consciously swung through till I was even with his nose (I was in my experimental stage of leading) and decided that was too much lead for his slow speed. I eased it back to below his ear and fired. I hit him in the hips. I think the bit of reverse swing as I moved the sights back accounted for the hit far back, even at the coyote’s slow speed.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 08, 2007, 10:22 AM:
 
It seems to me that a coyote running away from being shot at; the circumstances do not allow you to "clock" him? But, my guess is about 25MPH after the first shot, but they seem to have a little left after the second close miss.

I doubt they do over thirty miles per hour, except in the extreme example above where they are being chased by a vehicle, or grayhounds? That seems to me, a different catagory, and in that case, even Scott might get up to 30MPH? Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 08, 2007, 12:05 PM:
 

quote:

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I’ve run over and killed two that tried to outrun me down a smooth dirt road.

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Why?
 

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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on April 08, 2007, 12:26 PM:
 
I'll remember to swing! For me hitting a running coyote always amounts to luck. I don't shoot at enough coyotes to of subcontiously figured out the distance, lead, and swing thing.

I do find it interesting though that after shooting lots and lots of trap and flying birds, I've somehow managed to calculate distance, lead, speed, swing etc. subcontiously. Neat how our brain figures out all that stuff without ever really having to do the math.

I have been lucky though. Twice on coyotes. Both times my buddies told me it was awesome shooting. Yeah right!?!? I just saw how far my bullet was hitting behind and made adjustments.

[ April 08, 2007, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 08, 2007, 12:43 PM:
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve run over and killed two that tried to outrun me down a smooth dirt road.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why?
-----------------------------------------------

The first one I was a teenager and I don't remember much of why other than to see if I could.

The second one fur prices were sky high and I wanted his hide. It was dark, on a winding lane with hedge thick thorn bushes on both sides. Fair pelt on that one that I dimly remember bringing $145.

It is a curious thing that animals will often run down a road in front of a vehicle when they could easily escape if they jumped off of the road. Jack rabbits, coyotes, bear and moose are especially prone to run on the road. My theory is that they know they can run faster on the road than they can in brush and broken ground so they stay on the road. Go easy if you ever get a moose in that situation as they have been known to kick a hoof through grill and radiator.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 08, 2007, 01:09 PM:
 
Well Higgins, I can't say why exactly, but I did it once, myself. It gave me a large measure of satisfaction. I had always wondered why so many road kills and it had never even come close, for me? It had eaten at me for years. Like Lee Marvin said: "It was so fine" (Cat Ballou)

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 08, 2007, 02:56 PM:
 
Leonard: "I doubt they do over thirty miles per hour, except in the extreme example above where they are being chased by a vehicle, or grayhounds? That seems to me, a different catagory, and in that case, even Scott might get up to 30MPH?"
-----------------------------
Now THAT's funny! On a more serious note, I saw a fairly recent photo of Scott and I don't think he could run that fast anymore.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 08, 2007, 03:02 PM:
 
Fine figure of a man yes, but 30-35mph?

 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 08, 2007, 03:26 PM:
 
One piece of the puzzle of hitting something running that isn't in your equation is the fact that you figures are probably using a stationary rifle barrel as opposed to a swinging rifle barrel, or vasa-versa. The lead needed with the two different shooting techniques will be different!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 08, 2007, 04:31 PM:
 
Scott may not run 30 mph. but he sure can cover alot of ground. Reminds me of the young caller and the old coyote caller. The young caller says lets run down the hill and get us a coyote, the old caller replies, "Lets walk down and get them all"
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 08:09 PM:
 
TRnCO,

Go back and re-read the post. It specifically talks about a swinging lead.

What will affect this to a small degree is that I used muzzle velocity when I would need to use an average velocity between muzzle velocity and velocity at the target. It wouldn't make too much difference.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 08:12 PM:
 
Rich: "On a more serious note, I saw a fairly recent photo of Scott and I don't think he could run that fast anymore."

Hahaha! Look who's talking? Last I knew you hadn't called Jenny Craig yet either. Besides, I might want to run for Sheriff. LOL!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 08:30 PM:
 
Instead of listening to the pastor this morning, I was thinking how easy it would be to clock running coyotes by picking out an object such as a fence and when the coyote ran by it, start the clock. When they reach another distant distinct object, stop the clock. Range the distance between points and calculate the speed. Enough of these and I could come up with a pretty good average.

From that point it's a matter of figuring leads for various angles.

Once a person has a basic understanding of these leads, it can become instinctual.

I missed a coyote this year that was running at about 20 mph at 150 yards. I led him about 1 foot. I shot in front of him 1 foot because he was running with a 20mph wind. Never thought about not having to lead when the coyote is running with a wind that is as strong as it's speed. That's when I committed myself to understanding leads and I will figure it out.

~SH~
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 08, 2007, 08:48 PM:
 
Scott on a an engineering aspect a lot of the decimals past one digit are going to be negligble becasue they aren't going to make a difference besides making your math more difficult.

First are you referring to 90 degrees being straight away or perpindicular to the shooter.

If straigt away from the shooter then
you have to do a little Trig but a coyote running straigth away is going to be at a more constant yardage (getting further away at a slower rate)

It is not as easy as just dividing the lead by the fraction of the angle difference (45/90)= 1/2

Also you have to look at the angles and the size of the target changing so the lead is slowly going to go from in front to over the top of the coyote besided in the straight away scenario

I have never clocked any coyotes or timed them so i won't say but there is enough professional people that have done it that you can look up to get an average i'm sure

[ April 08, 2007, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: nd coyote killer ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 09:15 PM:
 
nd,

Don't confuse the confused. This is as if you were sitting on an East/West road and a coyote ran across in front of you heading from the North to the South at top speed on a flat piece of ground. I'm not going to fog this excercise with angles just yet. The math is correct.

Here is the fps conversions for bullet speed at various yardages with 3700 ave velocity.

50 yards - .041
100 yards - .081
150 yards - .122
200 yards - .162
250 yards - .203
300 yards - .243

Here is the leads for the above shot at various coyote speeds.

35 mph or 51.3 fps

50 yards - 2.1'
100 yards - 4.15'
150 yards - 6.26'
200 yards - 8.36'
250 yards - 10.41'
300 yards - 12.47'

30 mph or 44 fps

50 yards - 1.8'
100 yards - 3.56'
150 yards - 5.37'
200 yards - 7.17'
250 yards - 8.93'
300 yards - 10.69'

25 mph or 36.6 fps

50 yards - 1.5'
100 yards - 2.96'
150 yards - 4.47'
200 yards - 5.97'
250 yards - 7.43'
300 yards - 8.89'

20 mph or 29.3 fps

50 yards - 1.2'
100 yards - 2.37'
150 yards - 3.57'
200 yards - 4.75'
250 yards - 5.95'
300 yards - 7.12'

There you go if your average velocity is 3700 fps.

If a coyote is running 25 mph and crosses in front of you at 200 yards, the lead is 6' for a bullet traveling an average speed of 3700 fps. The math is correct. If you don't like the decible points, round it off.

~SH~

[ April 08, 2007, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 08, 2007, 09:20 PM:
 
Wiley E,

I think you are trying to make this a lot more difficult that it needs to be.

Some things in life can be learned, but not taught.

There are just too many variables to hitting a running coyote.

Your eye needs to learn to communicate with your brain which needs to communicate with your finger.

When a coyote is running, you don't have time to determine his range, angle, speed, time of flight for the bullet, wind deflection and everything else. If you try to figure out all of that, the coyote will be long out of sight before you are ever ready to fire a shot.

You eye needs to recognize a sight picture and send the signal to fire to your finger before the sight picture changes.

This is one of the places that a rifle with low recoil and a fast projectile really shine, when you do miss, if your eye can pick up the impact, your brain will make the adjustments, and give a new preferred sight picture for the eye to seek.

It's interesting that you would ask such a question.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 08, 2007, 09:30 PM:
 
Tim: "I think you are trying to make this a lot more difficult that it needs to be."

I knew that was coming........

That's what they said to the guys using range finders and turret knobs but anyone who has used both of those tools will tell you it has greatly increased their long range shooting ability.

I'm looking for a starting point to get these numbers in my head just as I do with windage and elevation numbers. It's no damn different.

Nobody is saying that you need to take these numbers to the field and calculate them or that you would even have the time. I'm simply trying to get the general idea of correct leads in my head for an average coyote speed at varying distances. Nothing more, nothing less.

Interesting that I would ask this question? Why is that Tim? Is there a point you'd like to make? If you have something to say, say it!

I've never pointed a radar gun at a coyote running away from me, have you? I have an idea of how fast they might be going based on the many I have chased with a pickup but I was curious what others thought the average speed was.

More interesting that I would ask the question is your inability to see the value in these equations. I guess when your average running shot is 50 yards in heavy cover, the value might seem quite limited. For those of us who call a pile of coyotes in open country, there is value in this.


~SH~

[ April 08, 2007, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 08, 2007, 09:57 PM:
 
I didn't offer a guess, because I don't think that a number that correlates to a coyotes speed is pertinent to learning to shoot a running coyote.

But if I had to venture a guess, I'd bet that some coyotes can hit speeds of 45 MPH for short distances.

Turrets and range finders are great tools for long range shooting, but useless for running coyotes. By the time you need those tools, you need a stationary target, and time to consult a drop chart.

When the coyote is running, you don't have time to consult, you only have time to react.

Why would you want to create a ballistics chart that you won't have time to consult?

Do you shoot running targets with a stationary rifle, or have you found a ballistic program that also takes into account the speed at which the angle of the barrel changes?

It sounds like you are trying to teach yourself to fail. It would be virtually impossible to create a chart such as you are asking for. But then you already know that, and that's why I find it interesting that you would ask.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 08, 2007, 10:04 PM:
 
A swinging shot on a coyote pretty much rules out using a bipod, sticks, sitting on the ground or sitting on a stool. You must be standing and the coyote needs to be in the open for a short time.

A running coyote at 200 yards or less requires no lead if you are swinging the rifle. I follow the coyote a short distance with the crosshairs where I want to hit him and then use a controlled jerk along with a slight push or pull on the rifle . If the coyote is really moving, I will follow with the sights on his head because it is in line with the rest of the body. You get a little built in lead so to speak and some are hit right there in the head too.

A heavier rifle works a little better because once it is moving it takes a little effort to stop it. Keeping the gun moving during and after the shot is what makes this method work.

Randy
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 08, 2007, 10:51 PM:
 
I would have to agree with what Randy has said as far as how much lead. Most shots would have to be in the standing position. I have used the shooting sticks made by E.L.K. products and find that they can give you enough room to swing the rifle for a running shot and if i had a choice i would rather use them than do it free hand..
I can see where Scott is comeing from, and i have used a ballistic chart on my rifle and then later i switched to the Kenton BDC dial.
When i see the coyote comeing i take a rough guess at the distance of the coyote and dial it in. For under 600 yards at a running coyote the distance dose'nt have to be exact, just close. For elavation you have 6-8" to play with and and the length of coyotes body for lead and windage.
Like Tim B. stated once you have the site picture in youre scope then you squeeze one off, and if the rifle is low on recoil you can see where you hit and then make the adjustment.
This is one of the reasons i like to use my 17 rem with the high stock comb. When i'm calling or hunting coyotes i always set my varible scope on 10X, no matter which rifle i use. I get the same site picture every time. By not useing the BDC method youre guesses change from shot to shot. What i mean is how much was the correction you made by guessing, its tuff to tell the difference between a 1-1 1/2 ft correction.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 09, 2007, 04:58 AM:
 
Wiley: "Hahaha! Look who's talking? Last I knew you hadn't called Jenny Craig yet either."
------------------------
Wiley,
As my wife finished trimming the ham yesterday, she said "It's a shame that we have to pay for all of this fat". I patted my belly and said "Yeh it's a shame that I paid for all of THIS fat too".
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 09, 2007, 05:26 AM:
 
There simply can't be a formula for running coyotes. No two coyotes are going to run the same speed and they are rarely going to be at the exact same angle. Can't be done Scott.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 09, 2007, 06:01 AM:
 
TB: "Turrets and range finders are great tools for long range shooting, but useless for running coyotes."

Again, you missed the point Tim.

My point was that leading running coyotes, by understanding bullet speed and coyote speed at varying ranges, is just as important as understanding windage and elevation.

You don't have the time to calculate wind speed and distance with every running coyote either but if you have an idea how far the coyote is (400 yards) and how hard the wind is blowing (15mph), you have a better chance of hitting your target.

Same thing on a running coyote. If you guess a coyote is traveling at 25mph and you guess it's about 250 yards away, the lead is 6'. You adjust more or less accordingly.

TB: "When the coyote is running, you don't have time to consult, you only have time to react."

TB: "Why would you want to create a ballistics chart that you won't have time to consult?"

(Heavy sigh..........)

NOBODY SUGGESTED YOU WOULD HAVE THE TIME TO CONSULT EXACT CALCULATIONS.

In most situations your first bullet tells you where to lead with your next shot. Unfortunately, you can't always see the hit.

If you have a general idea in your head of distance and speed and angle, you would know how far to lead if you have a general idea of those leads. These charts provide a general idea of those leads. This estimate of leads becomes part of your sight picture. That is the only purpose in presenting this information.

If a coyote crosses the road in front of me at 200 yards and he's running about 25 mph, the lead is 6'. You store that away in your memory.

TB: "It sounds like you are trying to teach yourself to fail."

My history would prove otherwise.

Nobody has time to consult lead charts with flying birds at all angles and ranges either do they? Those who have a basic understanding of leads make those leads part of their sight picture.

~SH~

[ April 09, 2007, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 09, 2007, 06:18 AM:
 
3 toes,

NOBODY SUGGESTED YOU WOULD HAVE THE TIME TO CONSULT EXACT CALCULATIONS.

This is nothing more than a mental excercise to understand various leads as a starting point. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not so damn stupid to think I would have the time to calculate coyote speed, coyote distance, and angle on every running coyote.

Why doesn't someone tell me I need to chamber a round before I can shoot?

~SH~
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 09, 2007, 07:45 AM:
 
R. Shaw: "A swinging shot on a coyote pretty much rules out using a bipod, sticks, sitting on the ground or sitting on a stool. You must be standing and the coyote needs to be in the open for a short time."
---------------------------
Not so. I never use a bipod, and it is rare that I even use shooting sticks, but every running coyote I have killed was shot while I was in sitting position. I almost always call from a sitting position. No time to stand up just because the coyote won't stop for the shot.

Wiley,
You have to chamber a round before you can shoot.
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 09, 2007, 08:48 AM:
 
Why do you have to shoot them. Whats wrong with running them over. I cought a coyote in a playa one day clocked him between the 32 and 34 marks on the odom. before I lost him under the bumper. I didn't hit him though, he took a sharp right before the tire hit him. By the time I slowed and turned he had the edge of the playa and was up the side of the hill without missing a stride. Thats fast!

[ April 09, 2007, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Barndog ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 09, 2007, 08:56 AM:
 
Barndog,
Did ya take another swig of hooch, shift into 2nd gear and chase that coyote over the hill, thru the fence and across the field too?
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 09, 2007, 09:03 AM:
 

quote:

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Why do you have to shoot them. Whats wrong with running them over. I cought a coyote in a playa one day clocked him between the 32 and 34 marks on the odom. before I lost him under the bumper. I didn't hit him though, he took a sharp right before the tire hit him. By the time I slowed and turned he had the edge of the playa and was up the side of the hill without missing a stride. Thats fast!

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AND that is why INCEST is illegal in most states
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 09, 2007, 09:19 AM:
 
Nope didn't chase him up the hill. Hill was 30 to 40% slope. But it did cross my mind.
What in the world does Incest have anything to do with chasing a coyote. I said nothing about reunions.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 09, 2007, 09:33 AM:
 
Anyone know the BC and SD on my 1500HD Crew Cab. At 88ft\sec I'm having a hard time with the lead.
Usually end up in the ditch.

Last year I did get lucky on a family of 5 coons. lead them just right and managed to get 4 of them. That paid out to 32.00 Edit: I might add that two were DRT right there. The other two I had to finish off with a couple of bonks on the head with a baseball bat.

[ April 09, 2007, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2007, 10:54 AM:
 
Scott, I think your heart is in the right place, especially for those that don't have a clue where to start. For somebody that has flung lead at a few coyotes, when he reads "twelve feet!" that should give him something to go on?

But when we look at trapshooting, for instance, it still takes a lot of concentration and instinctive lead to break 25 straight, rather than charts and formulas.

There is no substitute for experience and practice and a semiauto.

Good hunting. LB

edit: the club I belonged to used to have a bunch of shooting events at the annual campout. Mostly different target shooting, score or group size, but one of the most popular was the running fox shoot. We rigged up a wire down a hill with a plywood archery fox cutout glued to the front and suspended on eyebolts. You could only fire between two parameters, trees would obstruct the rest of the run, start and finish.

You would be surprised how many of these seasoned coyote hunters would miss the target completely...mostly behind it.

[ April 09, 2007, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 09, 2007, 11:37 AM:
 
I've been trying to think and construct a good target to recreate running coyotes but haven't come up with much that would be cost effective. That one sounds pretty good Leonard now i just need a hill!

practice is the only real good way to get better at those shots but it is tough to practice that one without the right set up
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 09, 2007, 11:37 AM:
 
Wiley, it is very important to chamber a round before you shoot. Why wouldn't you think that was good information?

I never said that you would have time to consult anything, just that there are too many variables to have a pat answer in your head for how much lead. It just becomes instinctual after shooting at a few hundred and hitting a few. I have gotten better at running shots at a quarter away angle but still have a tough time with a straight across running shot. The speed changes with each shot. I have done better since I have packed an AR alot. With my 204 AR there is virtually no recoil and I can generally see any misses and correct if needed and just keep swinging and pulling the trigger. And I agree with Rich C. about shooting sitting. I rarely shoot any other way and shoot plenty or running coyotes. I like the Vern Howey bi-pod for that reason.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 09, 2007, 11:39 AM:
 
ND,
There are no hills in North Dakota, but as soon as you get to Wyoming you'll get to see some!
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 09, 2007, 12:39 PM:
 
3 Toes how did you know that i was headed for WY?

Hopefully i will can set something up out there.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 09, 2007, 12:44 PM:
 
If a person is right handed and sitting on the ground, a coyote running from right to left could be killed from this position. You are shooting across your body, it is comfortable,and the rifle remains in good contact with your face at all times. From the sitting position a coyote running from left to right would be a different story, at least it is for me. I haven't figured out how to make all of them run right to left in order to shoot while sitting on the ground.I use a stool and it is pretty easy just to stand up and position myself for the running shot from any direction.

I have tried lots of times to shoot a moving coyote while using sticks. My motion is not fluid and it is impossible for me to keep the gun moving after the shot. It always seems I am going into a twist of some kind that binds me up. The sticks work fine on a straight-away runner. But again, they all don't run straight away.

Randy
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 09, 2007, 12:45 PM:
 
Well, I am really well connected and know lots of things. Did you find a dog yet? Strange that I would know you were looking! Your not going to get one of those giant poodle looking things like your buddy has are you?

[ April 09, 2007, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 09, 2007, 12:52 PM:
 
Randy, the cradle that holds your rifle on the Howey bi-pods swivels. Makes it smoother. But i have used plenty of the others also. There is alot of movement there before they bind. (Except for the Harris type bi pods, they suck for running shots)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2007, 01:27 PM:
 
You make an excellent point, Randy. A coyote running to my right is not in very serious trouble, depending on which way I am sitting.

I have a stoney point bipod that swivels just about any position, and tilts... but the drawback is that the upper part, which detaches from the sticks, is setscrewed to my sling swivel, and I had to take the stock apart to install it. That's no big deal, but it does limit me to that one rifle.

Good hunting. LB



edit: take a look at this pic and think about another thread where the discussion is about shooting coyotes in order of preference. You can see how easily the nearest coyote can disappear while you center punch the one just emerging from the brush.

[ April 09, 2007, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 09, 2007, 04:10 PM:
 
I don't know if i will end up with an airedale or not. I'm assuming your talking about the airedale my buddy owns.

Ahhhh i figured out who you are now!!!!!! How did trainging go then? I bet you weren't very happy about the equipment brand you got huh!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2007, 04:15 PM:
 
I went out today to shoot some targets and give you an idea of how The BDC dial i have been useing works. First off i'm not claiming to be a better shot than Dan C. or anyone else. What i did was set up a target at 500 yards. I dialed the scope in for 500 yds and fired two sighters. both bullets hit to the right of target so i adjusted the windage 4 clicks and shot two more sighters and missed the target completly and to the left. I took away two clicks and fired two more rounds and was right on target. I then fired five rounds for effect. The width of the target is 16", if it would of been a live coyote he would of been put down even with the 4 wind correction shots. I used to use the traj. tables taped to each rifle and i could glance at it for a referance, it was too much for me to remember all the time. With the BDC dial all i do is dial and smile. If i'm off target a bit i can correct it by changeing the sight picture a little and still be-able to hit the target..The Kenton company makes a windage dial also and that is next on my list.. http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0620.jpg[/IMG]] http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0623.jpg[/IMG]] http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0625.jpg[/IMG]]

[ April 09, 2007, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 09, 2007, 04:41 PM:
 
Wiley, I realize your very first post says how to swing through a target before firing, and continue swing through after firing, BUT your math computation doesn't compute for rifle swing through, does it? Your math is figuring bullet speed, distance, and how fast your target is moving. But if that bullet is leaving a swinging barrel, the lead will be less than if the barrel is stationary, such as your figures are using.
There are three shooting techniques that we have to choose from, and depending on which a shooter uses, your math numbers could vary. How much? Don't know. Maybe not enough to loose any sleep over. But if a guy is going to go through all the trouble of getting all these leads at certain distances in your head well enough to use in the moment of battle, why not have the correct numbers in your head!
The difference in lead between the 3 shooting techniques, I would guess, could be as much as a few feet at 200 yards! Maybe not!
I've found one of the best ways to kill a runnung coyote is to have your partner be watching through his scope and call your shot, and then your partner waits for you to cycle and regain the target before he fires so you can call his shot. As was said, if you don't see where you hit when you missed, there's no way to correct, since you don't know what you did wrong to start with!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 09, 2007, 05:01 PM:
 
"But if that bullet is leaving a swinging barrel, the lead will be less than if the barrel is stationary, such as your figures are using."
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Sorry TRNCO, but you are not correct this time. The bullet does not know if the barrel is swinging or not. It is the very instant that bullet leaves the bore which makes the difference.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on April 09, 2007, 05:11 PM:
 
Wiley, I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. You started this with calculations of a coyote running straight away. This has too many variables to be that useful for a starting point. I think this excercise is more useful for a coyote running perpindicular to the shooter. By eliminating the fact that the coyote is getting further away at a fast rate of speed, you are eliminating a variable. The information you posted would be much more helpful to a coyote moving perpindicular, because you have a constant distance to the target, for hypothetical purposes a constant speed of the coyote, and the calculations will give you a single measurement for leading. The math is easier and I would venture to guess that most people miss this shot with regularity.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 09, 2007, 05:27 PM:
 
Training sucked ND. I'm too old to be trained. What "brand" equipment are you refering to? I missed something? Actually, I didn't get a bunch of new stuff like the other guys. I got all the old crap of the guy whos position I took over. Old pickup, old everything. Oh well, it suits me best anyway.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2007, 05:53 PM:
 
I talked with a friend today who has clocked a few coyotes running parrel to the road. he said that he had one go as fast as 40 and two others around 35 mph. He stated the one going 40 was in a bean stubble field with only a inch or to of snow on the ground.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2007, 06:41 PM:
 

quote:

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Ahhhh i figured out who you are now!!!!!! ND

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quote:

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What? Not Robb?

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Leonard it's a inside joke that i'm going to respect.

3 Toes: that sucks but it wasn't your brand anyway from what my "buddy" tells me.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2007, 09:48 PM:
 
I know the joke, ND.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 09, 2007, 09:51 PM:
 

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2007, 10:19 PM:
 
Some of you may not realize but when you aim dead on, a moveing coyote and you follow through with youre swing you are forgetting the time of bullet flight. For an example if you aim for the shoulder and follow through with youre swing, by the time the bullet gets to the coyote its not going to hit where you aimed, The bullet will hit farther back depending on the distance of the coyote and his speed, or will end up in a miss.
You are following through with the swing and when you fire the coyote is not going to be where you are holding when the bullet leaves the barrel.
And like Scott said you will need a 6' lead when coyote is running left to right.
Some one can do the math: you need the bullets flight time from gun to moveing target at 200 yds. The speed of target 35 mph. moveing from right to left.
Once you get the idea into youre head (site picture) of how much lead is needed and some live practice, you will have increased youre hit to miss ratio.

[ April 09, 2007, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 10, 2007, 06:17 AM:
 
Wiley,
I am surprised that you didn't pick up on my observations regarding whether or not a rifle barrel is swinging at the moment that bullet actually leaves end of said barrel. I contend that it is NOT the swinging barrel that determines where the bullet strikes. At the very instant in which bullets exits barrel, it won't matter a whit if said barrel is swinging with the target or not. It is the delay between the moment the sear breaks, versus the moment the rifle actually goes BANG which makes sustained lead or "swing through" necessary.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 10, 2007, 08:02 AM:
 
Numbers schmumbers. Math my ass. Doesn't anyone just go out and shoot a thousand jack rabbits a year anymore? Actually, I don't have time for that anymore, myself... But, back when I was shooting 20,000 to 30,000 rounds a year at critters, after a full summer of shooting at running jack rabbits, running coyotes just seemed really huge and really slow and really easy to hit.

Note - I'm not nearly that good anymore. Use it or lose it type deal, and I just don't get in the massive trigger time anymore. These days, I'm probably no better than average.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on April 10, 2007, 08:41 AM:
 
Speed, distance, angles,elevation,velocity,etc.etc.
Like posted before hitting running targets consistantly takes practice and the ability to retain the knowledge gained and instantly put it back into the similar scenario again at a blink of an eye. Repetitive motion on instinctive reaction.Easy for some not others.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on April 10, 2007, 09:28 AM:
 
(heavy sigh) I did not! The calculations were always for a coyote running across in front of you not away from you.

My apologies Scott, I skimmed the calcs and was reading the title when I responded. Then I agree with you that this is useful information as a starting point.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 10, 2007, 04:48 PM:
 
You may be right Rich, But I'm going to speculate a little more. What if I took a shotgun and got 30 yards from a patterning board and fired just as I past over the board while swinging from one side to the other. I would expect my pattern to be oval shaped, would it not?
Maybe the higher speed of a rifle takes the swing out of the equation, hell I don't no!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2007, 06:51 PM:
 
If its one continues swing and you pull the trigger as you pass the target, you will only hit half or none at all.
Like Rich said you have to figure the time it takes to pull trigger and have it strike the shells primer. (This is called lock time)
And then you have to figure time of flight. (How long it takes projectile to travel from gun to target)

Every year i take more running shots at coyotes and every year i get better at it. In order for me to be more consistant on my running shots there are certain things i have had done to my rifles to help increase my odds and i will list them.
1. Trigger; I use a custom trigger that dose'nt have alot of play in it and the release is crisp.
2. Fireing pin, I use a David tubb fireing pin. The fireing pin is lighter and faster, which speeds up the lock time. (time it takes for the fireing pin to move foward and strike primer)
3.Scope; I use a scope that has a 30mm tube. gives you a litte better site picture or a scope with larger bell lens also helps. I set my scopes 0n 10x when makeing running shots. By doing this it helps to get the same site picture each time.. Repeatability!
4.Stock; My stocks are cut to my length of pull and i use a brand or style i feel comfortable with. Stock comb; I use the sako style hunter stocks or mount a cheek piece on one that don't have it. Whats the purpose? when shooting a rifle you want youre head straight up and down as much as possible, not leaning over the stock. Also with the sako style comb you have a flatter area to rest youre face against. Repeatability!
5.Cartridge; a cartridge that is fast with a bullet that has a good B.C. and low to med recoil. For example a 223 imp., 17 rem with a 30 gr. bullet,22-250 imp., 243 imp.. The faster the bullet the shorter the time of flight is.Most of the cartridges i listed will push a bullet along at 3700 to 4200 fps.
6. Barrel; I prefer to use a barrel that is 24-26" long with a number five contour. Not too heavey and not to light.
7. Practice, practice, breeth control, squeezeing the trigger, and follow through.
What i listed is'nt necessary for killing coyotes, you can get by with what you have. But if you are serious about it like i am, you will do whats needed to increase youre chances of makeing those running shots and even the long range shots.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 10, 2007, 06:56 PM:
 
So, answer the question then, will the pattern be oval shaped, assuming I pull the trigger at the given moment needed to put the pattern on paper?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 10, 2007, 07:25 PM:
 
Maybe? If you could swing it at 80 MPH? Otherwise, it is just going to affect where it was pointed when the shot column left the barrel.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 10, 2007, 07:28 PM:
 
TRnCo,
The answer is no. Shot does not leave the barrel of a shotgun like water leaves the end of a hose. It is contained in a shot cup which keeps it together as it exits the end of the barrel. Actually the shot string, so to speak, is pretty bunched up as it travels.

Randy
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 11, 2007, 06:02 AM:
 
TRNCO: " What if I took a shotgun and got 30 yards from a patterning board and fired just as I past over the board while swinging from one side to the other. I would expect my pattern to be oval shaped, would it not?"
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I don't believe that it would. This thread makes people think, and that is good.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 11, 2007, 07:15 AM:
 
It wouldn't be oval, but you would miss the target.

When you add side to side movement, the projectile will continue with the same side to side movement as it travels.

That's why you need far less lead to hit a running coyote if you swing the barrel, as apposed to holding the barrel still and try to shoot a running coyote.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 11, 2007, 07:44 AM:
 

quote:

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When you add side to side movement, the projectile will continue with the same side to side movement as it travels.

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That`s what I always thought & was taught, it would be damn tough for anyone to do the math & consequently end up with an accurate shot under normal hunting conditions, I think I`ll continue following through on the runners & see how it goes, besides I don`t have room for all the charts, graphs, gps, calculator, range finder & laptop on a calling stand with me.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 11, 2007, 08:29 AM:
 
So Tim, are you saying that if I shoot a bullet perpendicular to my truck while going 88ft\sec, when the bullet gets out to 400 yards it would still be even with my truck?

[ April 11, 2007, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 11, 2007, 08:29 AM:
 
Exactly Tim,

When you follow a running coyote for a short distance with the crosshairs, you are ineffect matching the speed of the coyote with the speed of the end of the rifle barrel. As long as you continue to swing after pulling the trigger.

A loose term to describe this is called sustained lead. However, when using a shotgun with sustained lead, you do see daylight between the barrel and the target. The reason being you are shooting a target that is sometimes traveling 3 times faster than a coyote and the shot is traveling 3 times slower than a rifle bullet.

Randy
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 11, 2007, 08:51 AM:
 

quote:

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So Tim, are you saying that if I shoot a bullet perpendicular to my truck while going 88ft\sec, when the bullet gets out to 400 yards it would still be even with my truck?

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I think the effect of barrel swing is fairly significant, and math showing otherwise be damned...

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Ditto. And I think if we get the math right, it will show the same thing.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 11, 2007, 09:46 AM:
 
Tim,

That's too much math for me. But for the sake of argument, it does not take a bullet 2 seconds to reach 200 yards. The time of flight for a 53 gr. bullet, running 3800fps is .1830 seconds. The coyote ain't going far in that length of time.

Randy
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 11, 2007, 09:59 AM:
 
The numbers i used Randy was just and example. If you go to page one at the top Scott already did the math for us.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 10:13 AM:
 
DAA: "For me, this is all real simple, and basically goes back to what I think Tim first posted. I don't give anywhere near as much lead as the math in this thread suggest that I should. And I hit at least my fair share of running animals. So, my personal opinion, is that even if it were possible to instantaneously work out all this math at the time of the shot, it wouldn't be of any value to me anyway. And at the end of the day, the real answer is exceedingly simple - just go out and shoot at a lot of running animals and you'll get the hang of it (and likely realize how useless the math is...)."

DAA,

There is no question that there is no substitute for practice on running targets. I don't think anyone here is foolish enough not to realize that.

Most coyotes will be running at a different angle and different speeds but you still have to have a basic understanding of lead for each individual shooting style (swing and follow through). Will a chart be a substitute for experience when it comes to knowing those leads? Of course not!

There is no substitute for experience but you still need a starting point and thought process on lead. That's all this is no matter what the inevitable spin is.

If your shooting style happens to be that your swing follows the same speed as the coyote until you reach a point in front of that coyote, you squeeze the trigger and follow through, if that coyote is crossing the road in front of you at 25 mph and 200 yards away, your lead will have to be 6'. There is no arguing that. When that bullet leaves the barrel, it needs to be heading at a point 6' in front of the vitals of that coyote in order to hit it, period. You can change the swing and lead but you can't change the math.

Now either that is wrong and you can prove it's wrong or the math has value in understanding your lead in that situation WITH THAT SWING. I repeat, with that swing.

If you are not giving that much lead IN THAT SITUATION, than the coyote is closer, slower, at a different angle or you are swinging faster than the coyote. Which one is it because I highly doubt you will argue the math?

The bullet speed is constant, the angle in the above situation is 90 degrees (a coyote trying to cross the road in front of you which is a common situation), the distance is known, let's assume the coyote's speed is a flat 25 mph, the only variable in that situation is your swing.

I have a good friend that hunted coyotes in NE much the same way TA hunts them in MN. He told me that time and time again they would see a coyote run across the road in front of them heading to the other side of the section. Invariably, they would race to the corner, race to the next corner and by the time they got almost to the center of the section (1/2 mile - 1 mile - 1/2 mile), that coyote would cross the road just in front of them time after time. Now that is a very repeatable situation and knowing your lead in that situation could easily be applied repeatedly.

No matter whether you have a smooth swing with the speed of the coyote, whether you have a swing that is much faster than the coyote, whether you jerk, push or pull at the end of your swing as Randy Shaw does, or whether you stop in front and pull the trigger, each one of those situations STILL requires knowing the lead.

Experience will certainly teach you far more than you can ever learn from a chart. Nobody is arguing that but you can't argue the math in a known situation as the one described above which is the basis for the entire thought process behind leads.

I know where you and Tim are coming from but I also know the value in having a basic understanding of actual leads for KNOWN situations.

If this thread doesn't accomplish anything more than to give a novice a BASIC UNDERSTANDING of how much lead is required to shoot a hard running coyote traveling across the road in front of you at ABOUT 200 yards, then it has SOME value.

If this thread does nothing more than get everyone thinking about this, it has value.

To simply dismiss the math and say, "grab some shells and go practice" only leaves you to guess what the lead should be until you learn it.

Just the variance between shooting styles would render any chart basically worthless but a discussion of known situations gives anyone a basic understanding of lead.

This excercise was never about establishing a chart for each and every situation no matter how some of you want to spin it. Such a suggestion is insulting to me considering how many coyotes I have called and shot over the years. This is about a thought process on determining lead nothing more, nothing less.

Carry on!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 10:23 AM:
 
Leonard: "You know what? Shooting at a running coyote is an invitation to failure. I try to resist the urge as much as possible? (I have heard there are ways of getting them to stop)"

I wholeheartedly agree but there is too many times where they simply won't stop (hard chargers) or you can't get the second one to stop after the shot.

I have tried every conceivable way I can think of to get that second coyote to stop and many times they do but there is simply enough times when they don't stop that you either learn to shoot running coyotes or you accept a lower level of success. Which brings us back to the "estrus chirp". LOL!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 10:34 AM:
 
Randy Shaw: "But for the sake of argument, it does not take a bullet 2 seconds to reach 200 yards. The time of flight for a 53 gr. bullet, running 3800fps is .1830 seconds. The coyote ain't going far in that length of time."

First off, you need to divide 600 (200 yards) by 3800 to arrive at .158 seconds for 200 yards.

Then take your coyote speed of 36.6 fps (25 mph) and multiply it times .158 and see how far the coyote travels in that length of time.

Do you consider 5.8' far because that's how far he traveled if he was going 25 mph. If you jerk your gun before you pull the trigger and you are hitting the vitals, you are jerking the point of aim 5.8' in front of the vitals. You can't change the math.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 11, 2007, 10:42 AM:
 
So if I'm swinging my gun barrel left to right at a couple of miles an hour and the bullet spends about.000025 of a second in my barrel, I'm going to sling the bullet to the right?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 11, 2007, 10:49 AM:
 
I could'nt take it any longer so i made two calls today. I called hornady and Sierra and talked to the guys in the ballistic department. From what we have decussed almost everyone is correct.
Scott's formula is correct a 6' lead is required for a moveing target. But the formula is figured with a stationary barrel. The correct lead would be half that (3')Scott and others where also correct. Both guys from Hornady and Sierra agreed on this. The time of flight and target speed, is what you have to lead for.

i asked Sierra what they reconmended for a fur bullet for coyotes. They said the 55 gr. spt.

I then asked Hornady what they recondmended, A 50 gr V-max and a 52 gr. A-max. As a fur friendly bullets. The 52 gr. A-max does have a thicker jacket compared to the ballistic tips.
I asked both about shoulder or shoulder blade hits and both agree you are going to get some nasty wounds no matter what bullet you use, some more than others.

leonard: i'm going to over look what you said about the 17 cal..
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 10:53 AM:
 
Greenside,

It's an issue of where the barrel is actually pointing when the trigger is pulled as Rich Cronk correclty pointed out.

If your swing is faster than the coyote and you pull the trigger when that cross hair is at a certain point in front of the coyote, by the time the bullet leaves the barrel the barrel will actually be pointing ahead of where it was when you pulled the trigger because of the delay in the time it takes for your trigger finger to pull the trigger and the firing pin to fall. I don't think you are "slinging the bullet in the barrel". As you pointed out, a bullet traveling at 3800 fps is only in the barrel for .000526 of on second in a 24" barrel. That's not much time. LOL!

TA: "But the formula is figured with a stationary barrel."

What do they mean by that? A barrel that is traveling at the same speed as the coyote or a barrel that is not moving at all?

~SH~

[ April 11, 2007, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on April 11, 2007, 11:02 AM:
 
I'm confused,

quote:

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The bullet speed is constant

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quote:

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First off, you need to divide 600 (200 yards) by 3800 to arrive at .158 seconds for 200 yards.

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quote:

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If you are not giving that much lead IN THAT SITUATION, than the coyote is closer, slower, at a different angle or you are swinging faster than the coyote. Which one is it because I highly doubt you will argue the math?

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quote:

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quote:
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I think the effect of barrel swing is fairly significant, and math showing otherwise be damned...

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Ditto. And I think if we get the math right, it will show the same thing.

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quote:

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I have seen guys swear that they shot behind a coyote and the shot was actually slightly in front.

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quote:

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Reminds me of the young caller and the old coyote caller. The young caller says lets run down the hill and get us a coyote, the old caller replies, "Lets walk down and get them all"

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Thats not the joke Tim. Its about a young bull and an old Bull. Im sorry but i hate to see you butcher a joke like that, besides we know we cant call them all,,,,right??? seriously im just razzin ya!!
 

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Posted by albert (Member # 98) on April 11, 2007, 04:29 PM:
 
swinging the barell changes the perception of lead. I'm surprised that no has brought up the can on the string. Take a can or any weight for that matter swing it around your head and let go of the string. the can does not curve forward. it goes out in a straight line. Your bullet does the same thing. Swinging your rifle allows for a more consitant lead rather than trying to hold a stationary barrel and trying to guess when the right time to pull the trigger is.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on April 11, 2007, 04:34 PM:
 
And speaking of pheasants, isn't it odd how some guys can shoot the lights out with a shotgun, but can't hit a moving target with a rifle to save thier ass, and then there are those that are visa-versa!
I've got a brother that kills running coyotes on a regular basis with his rifle, but when it comes to quail, pheasant or dove, you better be ready to shoot clean-up around him!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2007, 04:56 PM:
 
Yes, I actually knew, instinctively that the tanks have programs that compute all that stuff, and probably involving a laser rangefinder, as well?

But, what I would like to address is the differences in the terms swing and pivot, as we might see when using the shooting sticks. The back part (chamber area) of the barrel is moving in the opposite direction from the muzzle.

If a guy is standing, or even sitting, he is swinging the barrel and the muzzle is moving faster than the chamber area, but they are both swinging, which is a little different than the example above with the tank barrel.

It seems to me that all of these things taken into account will affect the perceived lead versus pointing the rifle at a spot ahead of the animal and deciding that precisely six feet of lead is required; or any other number, at any other distance.

Good hunting. LB

PS Vic knows this shit and I bet he couldn't come up with a formula to save his life?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 11, 2007, 06:20 PM:
 
Scott,

I can't help but to think that if the ability to hit a running coyote at 200 yards, is so troubling and important to you, that you need to debate it for 5 pages, maybe you need to put down the calculator and go out and learn how to call coyotes in to 50 yards and stop them broadside like the rest of us do?

There are a number of guys on this board who would give you some personal instruction if you offered them a fair price for their time. Maybe you should consider it?
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on April 11, 2007, 06:51 PM:
 
TB, do you call them in to 50 yards or less and broadside because you can? Or is it because you are a lazy fatcat union worker that doesn't want to walk the extra 150 yards?
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 11, 2007, 06:58 PM:
 
I know for a fact, that at 200 yards, a coyote running flat out, perpendicular to the shooter, will indeed soak up an easy six foot of lead. How the shooter does this, is where the squabbling comes in. I don't believe for a second that "barrel swing" has any effect on lead as we are calling it. To me,and Im a barrel swinger, all the swing or as better defined by Randy, sustained lead does, is aid in my aiming for where I want the bullet to end up after I press the trigger. I begin a running shot with tracking ON the coyote, maintaining a good paralell swing, then push the muzzle a bit quicker, in front of the moving coyote,and maintain that sustained push while comitting to the shot, till I "feel" it's right. Hopefully when all that happens, the sear breaks, I follow thru with the shot, or in other words, try to maintain the same speed in the push of the lead. It's a more fluid and easier method than a pull in front,and jerk the trigger kind of movement. To me that would be very difficult, becasue I would loose the cadence the coyote was running and probably not be on the same plane as the coyote, versus tracking on the coyote, then pulling ahead and maintain the same speed of the muzzle push.
So.......Leonards right, I have no damned formula, although Im not about to dismiss the fact that one does exist. As Scott mentioned, one can call it anything you like, but in the end, if your not at that magical 6 foot lead on that 200 yard coyote at a right angle shot, your never going to draw blood.
Im not to good at long shot runners, those at a right angle, thats a tough shot I think.
Give me a going away or quartering away shot,and sure, Im a bit more comfortable when they are "out there".
Inside of a 100 yards, at the angles most encountered with a fleeing coyote, I suppose a guy can nail them by staying on fur...at least the fur on the nose:) but man, when they get out past fort mudge, a coyote hauling ass is a tough target....IMHO, in my partiuclar situation,and in my particualr area.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 11, 2007, 07:20 PM:
 
Good post Vic, I think someone mentioned the "percieved" lead, what it looks like through the scope, that`s definitely an issue, everyone sees things a little differently, also the come from behind & follow through method is similair to what Scott said about pheasant hunting. Regardless, a lead is a lead no matter if you use graphs & charts or you`re just plain good at it from experience but you & Scott have made a good point, you`d better have a decent idea of where to start on a running coyote before you go slinging bullets .

Just for the sake of argument though, swinging the barrel does in fact set that bullet in motion from one side to the other, I ran a few numbers on the speed of swing at 1 fps & it could possibly effect the lead by as much as 1 - 2 in. at 200 yds. but it certainly wouldn`t cut a 6ft lead in half.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 11, 2007, 08:30 PM:
 
Good post Vic!

TB: "I can't help but to think that if the ability to hit a running coyote at 200 yards, is so troubling and important to you, that you need to debate it for 5 pages, maybe you need to put down the calculator and go out and learn how to call coyotes in to 50 yards and stop them broadside like the rest of us do?"

I can't believe it, SOMEONE CALL 911 AGAIN, TIM BEHLE IS BEING FORCED TO READ 5 PAGES OF POSTS AGAINST HIS WILL AGAIN.

If you don't like thread and feel it's a waste of your time, don't read it Tim. Why is that always such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

As far as learning to call and handle coyotes, all I can say is, what a telling statement.

In your thicker cover, I'll bet you have no idea how many coyotes you call in that you never see let alone stop after the shot. What's a 200 yard shot in Southern Arizona? Down a dirt road between the mesquite and cactus?

If you think you can consistantly stop multiple coyotes IN THIS OPEN COUNTRY after the shot, you're in for a rude awakening pal. I haven't seen anyone that can consistantly do it yet. Must be one of those area specific things again huh?

Jump into a competition hunt around here and see if you don't change your tune Quigley Behle! LOL!


TB: "There are a number of guys on this board who would give you some personal instruction if you offered them a fair price for their time. Maybe you should consider it?"

Hahaha! Maybe I should!

I'll tell you what, when someone gets my attention with results on stopping coyotes that consistantly excels beyond my own methods, IN THIS TYPE OF COUNTRY, I might consider it. That hasn't happened yet. I doubt even Quinton Wagoner can get the remainders of multiples to stop any better than I can but I'm certainly willing to learn if someone has the answer to getting any and all coyotes to stop at 50 yards. That tip would be worth a fair price but I'm going to need more than cheap talk as proof first.

Either way, thanks for the tip!

~SH~

[ April 11, 2007, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 12, 2007, 07:04 AM:
 
"I'll tell you what, when someone gets my attention with results on stopping coyotes that consistantly excels beyond my own methods, IN THIS TYPE OF COUNTRY, I might consider it."
-----------------------
The ESTRUS chirp should do it?
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on April 13, 2007, 06:27 PM:
 
Albert, there is an angular velocity imparted to the bullet, perpendiclar to the barrel and caused by the barrel swing. It is different than the can on a string you describe but is mathematically pretty much insignificant .To put it in perspective , if the muzzle swing is moving 1 fps and the bullet is moving 3500 fps then the effect of muzzle swing is going to be very small. As you say,the need for the swing and follow thru is to maintain the necessary lead.thanks

thanks

[ April 13, 2007, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on May 09, 2007, 12:09 PM:
 
I think the correct metaphor for the anal tendancy to calculate lead on a running animal is "third eye blind", however nothing wrong with trying to get a ballpark figure. Let your brain do the calculating its much faster to have the feel for the shot (W/ practice of course) Thats why I love sport more than golf...

Hello all just dropping in anywhere here.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on May 13, 2007, 08:04 PM:
 
Albert, just noticed you're from Sask. I just got back from northern Saskatchewan, where howling wolves woke me a couple of nights ago. On the road again tomorrow.

One more comment re the can swinging on a string. That is not an exact duplicate of a bullet because the starting point for the can when released is at the outer or muzzle end of the string rather than starting from the holder's fingers at the center of the pivot radius.

The bullet starts near the center of the pivot radius and travels down a swinging, moving tube. The movement of the tube (barrel) may be miniscule during the time the bullet is in it, but the direction the tube is pointing when the bullet leaves the muzzle is axiomatically different than it was when the bullet started. It may not be enough to change the point of impact much, but the movement does have some effect.

And if there is any sideways movement of the can (or bullet), which there is, then that movement does not instantly stop but has to impart some angular motion, however small, to the projectile during the first portion of its trajectory.

As others have indicated, I suspect that far more crucial to the swing is the time lag of human processes and lock time rather than time the bullet is in the barrel.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 20, 2007, 02:54 PM:
 
I havent read a single post in this thread. But my experience is normally they run somewhere just over 4000fps. Somehow they always seem to just outrun my bullet.
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 20, 2007, 03:13 PM:
 
I tend to agree with you,Andy.Sometimes i just see the weeds move,like a puff of wind went through.LOL
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on May 20, 2007, 03:26 PM:
 
Andy L, LLLOOOLLL!!!!
 

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