|
Author
|
Topic: How fast do most coyotes run when running away from you?
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 08, 2007 08:08 AM
My apologies if you have discussed this previously and I missed it but this is an important topic that everyone can benefit from.
How fast do you believe most coyotes are running, in MPH, that are running away from you AND WHY do you believe that?
Are you guessing or do you know for sure?
If you don't know for sure, don't answer. If you've ever timed their speed by how far they traveled in a certain amount of time, I want to hear your answer.
I'm not talking about coyotes you are chasing with a pickup or coyotes that are kicking it into high gear to beat you across a road. Naturally each of those situations will result in more speed from the coyote. I'm talking about most coyotes in OPEN COUNTRY that are running away from you after the shot most of which will be running at a 45 degree angle or less.
Why do I ask?
Because Tom Schimd recently sent me an excellent article on leading running coyotes which is something I had previously discussed with some of our other ADC trappers and I'd like to get a better handle on leading running coyotes at various angles and speeds.
For leading a running coyote the formula is: Time of bullet's flight in fractions of a second, times the coyote's speed (in feet per sec. FPS) which gives you the lead (in feet). Change yards to feet; change mph to fps: 35 mph X's 1.466 = 51.33 fps target speed. At 150 yards, bullet flight time, .144 of a sec X's 51.33 fps 'right angle' deer or coyote speed = 7.4 foot lead ahead of the chest, or about one deer length for the 'vital kill zone fron half' of the trophy buck.
Swing through the middle of the body and center of the neck, squeeze off your shot when the lead looks right, and be sure to keep swinging, -- follow through! Then witness them dropping in their tracks, sometimes before your scope's field of view.
MPH to FPS conversion: [MPH times 1.4666 equals FPS]
Coyote @ 200 yards moving @ 20mph / 29.3 fps times bullet flight time of .166/sec = 4.8 foot lead ahead of the vital target area. This is using the .243 Win., Nosler bullet with Ballistic Coefficient. .276; bullet flight time is .166 of sec.//coyote running only 20 mph = 29.33 fps x .166 of sec., = lead 4.8 feet or less than one coyote length in front of the vital rib cate target area.
Here is the breakdown of MPH to FPS conversion for various coyote speeds....
35 MPH = 51.3 FPS
30 MPH = 44 FPS
25 MPH = 36.6 FPS
20 MPH = 29.3 FPS
Bullet flight time of 3700 fps = .162/sec @ 200 yards. 3700 fps bullet velocity / 600 ft (300 yards) = .162
Coyote @ 200 yards running at a 90 degree angle moving @ 25mph / 36.6 fps times bullet flight time of .162/sec = 5.9 foot lead.
If that same coyote was running at a 45 degree angle, how much would it change the lead?
Would it be half (3')?
~SH~
[ April 08, 2007, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
|
posted April 08, 2007 09:06 AM
Would it be half (3')?
No. Useing your numbers and if my math is right it would take 4.1 feet of lead to get you on fur.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
|
posted April 08, 2007 09:11 AM
They all die, never had one run away. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) just kidding of course. Good question, I'll be watching for some answers.
[ April 08, 2007, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
--------------------
Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
|
posted April 08, 2007 10:04 AM
Pretty complex math to do while in the intuitive act of swinging a rifle on a coyote. With moving targets, using the tables should provide some fun and valuable practice.
Chasing coyotes with a vehicle is outside of your query but it does give an idea of max speed. I’ve run over and killed two that tried to outrun me down a smooth dirt road. As I recall all it took was 35 mph to kill the one I clocked, so he wasn’t going quite that fast, though I’d chased him about 75-100 yards by then and his initial burst may have slowed, or he may have been a slow individual. I’ve clocked jack rabbits top end from 37 to 45 mph, so different individuals have different top speed, as we’d expect.
I rarely shoot at a running critter anymore, but none of the formulas worked for me when I did. Apparently my intuitive style is to swing faster because I’ve hit coyotes, elk and deer when they were on a dead run and always hit exactly where the bead or the cross hairs were when the sear broke. When I consciously lead, I shoot in front of the animal. Others, who are better shots than I am, consciously lead animals. I asked an expert shot about it and he said that I was swinging fast enough to give the right amount of lead, and not to think it through too much nor change as long as it was working.
I shot at several animals with a recurve bow, instinctive shooting, and was pleasantly surprised that without thought, the arrow and the critter would arrive at the same spot. I simply looked at the critter and shot at him, whether he was standing still or moving. On one running coyote, as the arrow left the bow I gasped at how far ahead of the animal, maybe 25 feet, the arrow was headed. At the release it seemed way too far ahead but they converged perfectly.
Your calculations are interesting and useful, and I've copied the formula and table. The brain is a pretty good computer for calculating lead however, if we practice enough to calibrate it. I don’t practice enough and prefer close shots at standing critters so I pass most other shots nowadays.
An anecdote on un-lead: A coyote broadside at 110 yards, trotting slowly. With a 6mm Remington and 75 grain bullet I put the cross hairs on his shoulder and consciously swung through till I was even with his nose (I was in my experimental stage of leading) and decided that was too much lead for his slow speed. I eased it back to below his ear and fired. I hit him in the hips. I think the bit of reverse swing as I moved the sights back accounted for the hit far back, even at the coyote’s slow speed.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 08, 2007 10:22 AM
It seems to me that a coyote running away from being shot at; the circumstances do not allow you to "clock" him? But, my guess is about 25MPH after the first shot, but they seem to have a little left after the second close miss.
I doubt they do over thirty miles per hour, except in the extreme example above where they are being chased by a vehicle, or grayhounds? That seems to me, a different catagory, and in that case, even Scott might get up to 30MPH? Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted April 08, 2007 12:05 PM
quote:
I’ve run over and killed two that tried to outrun me down a smooth dirt road.
Why?
IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted April 08, 2007 12:26 PM
I'll remember to swing! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) For me hitting a running coyote always amounts to luck. I don't shoot at enough coyotes to of subcontiously figured out the distance, lead, and swing thing.
I do find it interesting though that after shooting lots and lots of trap and flying birds, I've somehow managed to calculate distance, lead, speed, swing etc. subcontiously. Neat how our brain figures out all that stuff without ever really having to do the math.
I have been lucky though. Twice on coyotes. Both times my buddies told me it was awesome shooting. Yeah right!?!? I just saw how far my bullet was hitting behind and made adjustments.
[ April 08, 2007, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
|
posted April 08, 2007 12:43 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve run over and killed two that tried to outrun me down a smooth dirt road.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
-----------------------------------------------
The first one I was a teenager and I don't remember much of why other than to see if I could.
The second one fur prices were sky high and I wanted his hide. It was dark, on a winding lane with hedge thick thorn bushes on both sides. Fair pelt on that one that I dimly remember bringing $145.
It is a curious thing that animals will often run down a road in front of a vehicle when they could easily escape if they jumped off of the road. Jack rabbits, coyotes, bear and moose are especially prone to run on the road. My theory is that they know they can run faster on the road than they can in brush and broken ground so they stay on the road. Go easy if you ever get a moose in that situation as they have been known to kick a hoof through grill and radiator.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted April 08, 2007 01:09 PM
Well Higgins, I can't say why exactly, but I did it once, myself. It gave me a large measure of satisfaction. I had always wondered why so many road kills and it had never even come close, for me? It had eaten at me for years. Like Lee Marvin said: "It was so fine" (Cat Ballou)
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted April 08, 2007 02:56 PM
Leonard: "I doubt they do over thirty miles per hour, except in the extreme example above where they are being chased by a vehicle, or grayhounds? That seems to me, a different catagory, and in that case, even Scott might get up to 30MPH?"
-----------------------------
Now THAT's funny! On a more serious note, I saw a fairly recent photo of Scott and I don't think he could run that fast anymore.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted April 08, 2007 03:02 PM
Fine figure of a man yes, but 30-35mph?
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted April 08, 2007 03:26 PM
One piece of the puzzle of hitting something running that isn't in your equation is the fact that you figures are probably using a stationary rifle barrel as opposed to a swinging rifle barrel, or vasa-versa. The lead needed with the two different shooting techniques will be different!
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted April 08, 2007 04:31 PM
Scott may not run 30 mph. but he sure can cover alot of ground. Reminds me of the young caller and the old coyote caller. The young caller says lets run down the hill and get us a coyote, the old caller replies, "Lets walk down and get them all"
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5620 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 08, 2007 08:09 PM
TRnCO,
Go back and re-read the post. It specifically talks about a swinging lead.
What will affect this to a small degree is that I used muzzle velocity when I would need to use an average velocity between muzzle velocity and velocity at the target. It wouldn't make too much difference.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 08, 2007 08:12 PM
Rich: "On a more serious note, I saw a fairly recent photo of Scott and I don't think he could run that fast anymore."
Hahaha! Look who's talking? Last I knew you hadn't called Jenny Craig yet either. Besides, I might want to run for Sheriff. LOL!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 08, 2007 08:30 PM
Instead of listening to the pastor this morning, I was thinking how easy it would be to clock running coyotes by picking out an object such as a fence and when the coyote ran by it, start the clock. When they reach another distant distinct object, stop the clock. Range the distance between points and calculate the speed. Enough of these and I could come up with a pretty good average.
From that point it's a matter of figuring leads for various angles.
Once a person has a basic understanding of these leads, it can become instinctual.
I missed a coyote this year that was running at about 20 mph at 150 yards. I led him about 1 foot. I shot in front of him 1 foot because he was running with a 20mph wind. Never thought about not having to lead when the coyote is running with a wind that is as strong as it's speed. That's when I committed myself to understanding leads and I will figure it out.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
|
posted April 08, 2007 08:48 PM
Scott on a an engineering aspect a lot of the decimals past one digit are going to be negligble becasue they aren't going to make a difference besides making your math more difficult.
First are you referring to 90 degrees being straight away or perpindicular to the shooter.
If straigt away from the shooter then
you have to do a little Trig but a coyote running straigth away is going to be at a more constant yardage (getting further away at a slower rate)
It is not as easy as just dividing the lead by the fraction of the angle difference (45/90)= 1/2
Also you have to look at the angles and the size of the target changing so the lead is slowly going to go from in front to over the top of the coyote besided in the straight away scenario
I have never clocked any coyotes or timed them so i won't say but there is enough professional people that have done it that you can look up to get an average i'm sure
[ April 08, 2007, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: nd coyote killer ]
--------------------
"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 08, 2007 09:15 PM
nd,
Don't confuse the confused. This is as if you were sitting on an East/West road and a coyote ran across in front of you heading from the North to the South at top speed on a flat piece of ground. I'm not going to fog this excercise with angles just yet. The math is correct.
Here is the fps conversions for bullet speed at various yardages with 3700 ave velocity.
50 yards - .041
100 yards - .081
150 yards - .122
200 yards - .162
250 yards - .203
300 yards - .243
Here is the leads for the above shot at various coyote speeds.
35 mph or 51.3 fps
50 yards - 2.1'
100 yards - 4.15'
150 yards - 6.26'
200 yards - 8.36'
250 yards - 10.41'
300 yards - 12.47'
30 mph or 44 fps
50 yards - 1.8'
100 yards - 3.56'
150 yards - 5.37'
200 yards - 7.17'
250 yards - 8.93'
300 yards - 10.69'
25 mph or 36.6 fps
50 yards - 1.5'
100 yards - 2.96'
150 yards - 4.47'
200 yards - 5.97'
250 yards - 7.43'
300 yards - 8.89'
20 mph or 29.3 fps
50 yards - 1.2'
100 yards - 2.37'
150 yards - 3.57'
200 yards - 4.75'
250 yards - 5.95'
300 yards - 7.12'
There you go if your average velocity is 3700 fps.
If a coyote is running 25 mph and crosses in front of you at 200 yards, the lead is 6' for a bullet traveling an average speed of 3700 fps. The math is correct. If you don't like the decible points, round it off.
~SH~
[ April 08, 2007, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
|
posted April 08, 2007 09:20 PM
Wiley E,
I think you are trying to make this a lot more difficult that it needs to be.
Some things in life can be learned, but not taught.
There are just too many variables to hitting a running coyote.
Your eye needs to learn to communicate with your brain which needs to communicate with your finger.
When a coyote is running, you don't have time to determine his range, angle, speed, time of flight for the bullet, wind deflection and everything else. If you try to figure out all of that, the coyote will be long out of sight before you are ever ready to fire a shot.
You eye needs to recognize a sight picture and send the signal to fire to your finger before the sight picture changes.
This is one of the places that a rifle with low recoil and a fast projectile really shine, when you do miss, if your eye can pick up the impact, your brain will make the adjustments, and give a new preferred sight picture for the eye to seek.
It's interesting that you would ask such a question.
--------------------
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
|
posted April 08, 2007 09:30 PM
Tim: "I think you are trying to make this a lot more difficult that it needs to be."
I knew that was coming........
That's what they said to the guys using range finders and turret knobs but anyone who has used both of those tools will tell you it has greatly increased their long range shooting ability.
I'm looking for a starting point to get these numbers in my head just as I do with windage and elevation numbers. It's no damn different.
Nobody is saying that you need to take these numbers to the field and calculate them or that you would even have the time. I'm simply trying to get the general idea of correct leads in my head for an average coyote speed at varying distances. Nothing more, nothing less.
Interesting that I would ask this question? Why is that Tim? Is there a point you'd like to make? If you have something to say, say it!
I've never pointed a radar gun at a coyote running away from me, have you? I have an idea of how fast they might be going based on the many I have chased with a pickup but I was curious what others thought the average speed was.
More interesting that I would ask the question is your inability to see the value in these equations. I guess when your average running shot is 50 yards in heavy cover, the value might seem quite limited. For those of us who call a pile of coyotes in open country, there is value in this.
~SH~
[ April 08, 2007, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
|
posted April 08, 2007 09:57 PM
I didn't offer a guess, because I don't think that a number that correlates to a coyotes speed is pertinent to learning to shoot a running coyote.
But if I had to venture a guess, I'd bet that some coyotes can hit speeds of 45 MPH for short distances.
Turrets and range finders are great tools for long range shooting, but useless for running coyotes. By the time you need those tools, you need a stationary target, and time to consult a drop chart.
When the coyote is running, you don't have time to consult, you only have time to react.
Why would you want to create a ballistics chart that you won't have time to consult?
Do you shoot running targets with a stationary rifle, or have you found a ballistic program that also takes into account the speed at which the angle of the barrel changes?
It sounds like you are trying to teach yourself to fail. It would be virtually impossible to create a chart such as you are asking for. But then you already know that, and that's why I find it interesting that you would ask.
--------------------
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted April 08, 2007 10:04 PM
A swinging shot on a coyote pretty much rules out using a bipod, sticks, sitting on the ground or sitting on a stool. You must be standing and the coyote needs to be in the open for a short time.
A running coyote at 200 yards or less requires no lead if you are swinging the rifle. I follow the coyote a short distance with the crosshairs where I want to hit him and then use a controlled jerk along with a slight push or pull on the rifle . If the coyote is really moving, I will follow with the sights on his head because it is in line with the rest of the body. You get a little built in lead so to speak and some are hit right there in the head too.
A heavier rifle works a little better because once it is moving it takes a little effort to stop it. Keeping the gun moving during and after the shot is what makes this method work.
Randy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted April 08, 2007 10:51 PM
I would have to agree with what Randy has said as far as how much lead. Most shots would have to be in the standing position. I have used the shooting sticks made by E.L.K. products and find that they can give you enough room to swing the rifle for a running shot and if i had a choice i would rather use them than do it free hand..
I can see where Scott is comeing from, and i have used a ballistic chart on my rifle and then later i switched to the Kenton BDC dial.
When i see the coyote comeing i take a rough guess at the distance of the coyote and dial it in. For under 600 yards at a running coyote the distance dose'nt have to be exact, just close. For elavation you have 6-8" to play with and and the length of coyotes body for lead and windage.
Like Tim B. stated once you have the site picture in youre scope then you squeeze one off, and if the rifle is low on recoil you can see where you hit and then make the adjustment.
This is one of the reasons i like to use my 17 rem with the high stock comb. When i'm calling or hunting coyotes i always set my varible scope on 10X, no matter which rifle i use. I get the same site picture every time. By not useing the BDC method youre guesses change from shot to shot. What i mean is how much was the correction you made by guessing, its tuff to tell the difference between a 1-1 1/2 ft correction.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5620 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted April 09, 2007 04:58 AM
Wiley: "Hahaha! Look who's talking? Last I knew you hadn't called Jenny Craig yet either."
------------------------
Wiley,
As my wife finished trimming the ham yesterday, she said "It's a shame that we have to pay for all of this fat". I patted my belly and said "Yeh it's a shame that I paid for all of THIS fat too".
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted April 09, 2007 05:26 AM
There simply can't be a formula for running coyotes. No two coyotes are going to run the same speed and they are rarely going to be at the exact same angle. Can't be done Scott.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
