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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 04, 2007, 06:16 AM:
 
http://www.kpvi.com/Global/story.asp?S=6322522

Did I read that right. Lets kill 75% of coyotes to increase fawn survival because those fawns that coyotes kill will die anyway.

Next time Idaho Fish and Game will educate their PR people.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 04, 2007, 07:43 AM:
 
Wow. Jennifer Jackson has the double-speak down well. Or is she really that obtuse?
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 04, 2007, 07:59 AM:
 
Besides the twisted satistics that Barndog brings up, a couple of points come to mind.

".....last year 342 coyotes were removed....."

"Each year Fish & Game provides 100 grand to Wildlife Services to SUPPLEMENT predator control efforts."

Seems to me that if Game & Fish would start taking that 100 grand to the fur sale and bid coyote pelts up to about $100 per each, they would be money ahead and have a whole lot less coyotes once the word got out.

> Yeah, I know; bounties don't work, but $100 coyotes would buy a LOT of quality lap dances!!!
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 04, 2007, 09:10 AM:
 
I don't think that any of us want to see $100 coyotes it brings the rif raf out in a big way
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2007, 09:30 AM:
 
How discouraging. Total clueless chick armed with statistics describing programs that probably cannot be justified? Hell, I put more thought into when I water my lawn!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 04, 2007, 01:44 PM:
 
No Barndog, your interpretation is not correct.

Normally they lose 50% of their fawn crop. About 25% to coyotes and about 25% to mountain lions.

The way to increase their fawn survival is to remove 75% of the coyote population in the fawning grounds SO COYOTES CAN'T KILL 25% OF THEIR FAWN CROP.

That would increase mule deer populations so there would be more for humans to harvest.

There is no benefit in simply harvesting coyotes, period. The goal is to harvest 75% of the coyotes IN THE FAWNING GROUNDS DURING FAWNING.

Removing 75% of the overall coyote population would be cost prohibitive.

Keep in mind that this is MICROMANAGEMENT for specific areas at specific times of the year. The next place could have an overabundance of mule deer and/or antelope and that population could actually use more coyote mortality.

Removing 75% of the coyote population in and around fawning grounds DURING FAWNING will have a minimal impact on recreational harvest of coyotes. These coyote vaccuums will quickly fill back in by migrating coyotes prior to prime fur season just like they return to the rough country around certain sheep ranches during the fur season that have been worked during the summer.

Creating incentives for killing coyotes YEAR ROUND might get you a lap dance but it will have mimimal impact on fawning grounds without the removal of coyotes DURING FAWNING. This is the same principle as Delta Waterfowl's removal of skunks and raccoon to improve nesting being conducted DURING NESTING.

~SH~

[ April 04, 2007, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 04, 2007, 01:54 PM:
 
But Wiley, she did mistakenly say that the only fawns that the coyotes killed were the weak and starving.
I'm not buying into that, are you?
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 04, 2007, 02:12 PM:
 
3 toes,

I see the point of confusion.

As usual, the editor did a piss poor job of explaining this or of relaying the message and perhaps had a bias to make the coyote removal program look bad.

This coyote removal is occuring during the fawning grounds when most of the predation is occuring. Winter predation doesn't have a damn thing to do with fawn predation that occurs during extreme winter weather where coyotes do tend to harvest the sick and weak deer.

This is just one more typical anti ADC spin.

Jennifer Jackson was more than likely taken out of context by an editor with a bias that chose to make this program look bad by quoting only half the story. What she didn't tell you is that most fawn predation occurs during fawning and that coyote removal would be conducted during fawning.

If she was an editor worth her salt, she would have asked Jennifer Jackson what percentage of the fawn mortality caused by coyotes occured during severe winter weather and what percentage of fawn predation occurred during fawning. That would have created an accurate depiction of the situation but there is nothing worse than an editor with a bias that buys their ink in bulk tankers which is why Bush has such a low approval rating. Editors with a bias only tell you what they want you to hear.

~SH~

[ April 04, 2007, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 05, 2007, 05:50 AM:
 
Well put Wiley except for the sick and the weak comment i disagree with. In the winter coyotes IN ND kill about whatever they want. They kill the strong and agile just as much as the sick and weak the problem is during extreme winter weather ALL prey animals are weak so everyone assumes that the coyotes are just cleaning up the garbage. Coyotes are oppurtunistic in every sense of the word if they stumble upon a sick or injured animal its going to die if a pair or trio of coyotes stubble upon a deer that is in a situation that gives them the advantage the deer is going to die period.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 05, 2007, 06:24 AM:
 
I'm not saying it don't happen, but the coyotes don't do that here as far as i know. Yes they will prey on the smaller or weaker deer, but not the healthy ones. There is a farmer here where i live that has a 15-20 acre grove around his farm. In the winter the deer herd up in his grove and there canbe anywhere from 30-40 deer liveing there dureing the winter months. This farmer does not hunt or allow hunting on his property. I keep close tabs on the deer dureing most of the winter to see if the pair of coyotes that also live in this grove feed on the deer. Once in a while a crippled deer will show up and they only last about a month or two. Either it dies from its wounds or the pair of coyotes take it down. I have also watched the pair of coyotes try to kill a young deer but they did'nt get far, a large doe came out of the grove and chased off the coyotes.
In the area west of me where i go calling it can be a different story, on a ranch that i hunt on the coyotes killed two deer within days of each one. I don't know if they where young deer or older deer, but the coyotes did kill them. It turned out that there was a group of eight coyotes on his ranch so i could see how this would be possible.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 05, 2007, 06:48 AM:
 
I'll have to check my books again but i believe it is "track of a Coyote" by Crabtree that has the pics documenting a single coyote taking down and killing a 1-2 year old WT buck. This is the exception and not the rule of course but when there is more then one coyote they don't seem to have any problems killing the healthy deer.

I have seen coyotes take turns chasing a doe around in circles multiple times in the field but i usually interupt the fun
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 05, 2007, 07:04 AM:
 
TA17REM; Have you considered the possibilty that some of the crippled deer are the result of an unsuccessful coyote attack, to be finished at a later date when the victim is weakened from it's wounds?? Just a thought.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 05, 2007, 07:19 AM:
 


[ March 28, 2010, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 09:07 AM:
 
nd: "Well put Wiley except for the sick and the weak comment i disagree with. In the winter coyotes IN ND kill about whatever they want. They kill the strong and agile just as much as the sick and weak the problem is during extreme winter weather ALL prey animals are weak so everyone assumes that the coyotes are just cleaning up the garbage. Coyotes are oppurtunistic in every sense of the word if they stumble upon a sick or injured animal its going to die if a pair or trio of coyotes stubble upon a deer that is in a situation that gives them the advantage the deer is going to die period."

Coyotes are opportunists and sick and weak deer IN THE WINTER generally provide more opportunity than healthy deer. That's just a fact. I don't care whether you agree with it or not.

I know coyotes are capable of killing healthy deer but they are going to take what is easiest in most situations. I have seen many healthy deer killed by coyotes but I have never seen them kill a healthy deer over a sick one.

I did not say they ONLY target the sick and the weak but they sure as hell aren't going to take a healthy deer if they can kill a weak one due to their opportunistic nature.

~SH~

[ April 05, 2007, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on April 05, 2007, 09:39 AM:
 
They are oppurtunists to the greatest degree. When we have a heavy snowfall and 12"+ remains for an extended period. The top part of the snow gets a good crust. The deer break through and the coyotes can run along the top. When this happens the coyotes really eat well. Healthy or not a targeted deer is most likely going to die. A healthy animal and weak animal side by side. I have to agree that the weak animal is going to get taken down almost every time.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2007, 09:43 AM:
 
Maybe Wiley is right, but it does seem to me that, more often than not, it doesn't come down to selecting deer A or deer B; one apparently healthy and the other crippled. At least in some of my areas where winter is a lot less harsh.

Being opportunistic as they are, it may be the fact that a deer has made a tactical error?

A friend (known since grade school) watched a doe jump in the lake, while he was bass fishing, chased by two coyotes. They just waited and watched while the deer eventually tired, and swam back into shore, where they cut her off as she raced up the hill. In the heavy cover, he couldn't see the scrap, but had no doubt of the outcome.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 05, 2007, 09:44 AM:
 

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I did not say they ONLY target the sick and the weak but they sure as hell aren't going to take a healthy deer if they can kill a weak one due to their opportunistic nature.

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The lie that has been continually repeated by our opponents is that coyotes and wolves ONLY target the sick and weak and that's what guys like ND get sensitive about as do I. Facts are still facts.

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I won't argue that they are going to take the young/weak/sick when they are available because that is just the law of nature but there isn't enough of those animals to support the predators so there is PLENTY of healthy animals taken at all times of the year.

That is the point that i was tring to make thats all
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2007, 12:14 PM:
 

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That is the point that i was tring to make thats all

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I still believe the author of the article was confused between the objective of the control program during fawn drop and wintertime depredation.

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Without a doubt!!
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 05, 2007, 03:50 PM:
 
I was just refering to your statements about doing control work during fawning times Wiley. As the article reads to me they were trying to explain that the fawns are weak and suffer the highest mortality, which they do. I think the news lady was just trying to spin it to the age old misnomer that only the weak and sick are preyed upon. So IMHO obviously during fawning periods all fawns are generally the weakest link at that time of year.

Just because your from South Dakota, don't think your going to get the best of ol Three Toes. It would take a Fed to do that.

[ April 05, 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 05, 2007, 05:55 PM:
 
I don't think that a coyote ever intentionally targets a sick, weak or injured animal of any species.

I think that they target anything that gives them an opportunity, they are just more successful at taking the sick, weak and injured.

And if you want to increase fawn survival, don't bother taking out the coyotes, just introduce Groundhogs to the area. Coyotes would much rather eat Groundhog than a deer.
 

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Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on April 05, 2007, 07:34 PM:
 
According to Roy McBride, during a cattle stampede the weaker calves would drop back,presenting easy targets for wolves. However,the wolves usually passed them and attacked the better, heavier animals even though they were harder to kill. When weaned calves were not available,wolves killed dependent calves,but not in the numbers or frequency with which they killed yearlings.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 05, 2007, 07:59 PM:
 
I’m a bit skeptical about how much coyotes target weak critters. I’ve seen plenty of evidence that they are opportunistic, downright creative about it at times, so I've no doubt about that part. However, a government paid wolfer acquaintance of mine told me years ago that coyotes consistently select the healthiest and best sheep in the herd to kill. He said that if you could train a coyote to pick animals for you to buy at an auction, you’d never go wrong.

Consistent with that are the stories about the Custer Wolf. I’ve never checked the documentation but that wolf selected prize animals out of a herd more than once. On one occasion he passed through a pasture of animals and killed a prized show beef kept in or near a barn.

So, though I may be wrong, for now I think that canine predator opportunism is countered at times by a preference for prime prey. I'm not sure what triggers those times, but they are common rather than a rare occasion.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 05, 2007, 08:37 PM:
 
After witnissing literally hundreds of coyote kills on both cattle and sheep for over 20 years, I'll stand by my statement.

Coyotes are opportunists and most opportunities are provided by the easiest targets. Coyotes are capable of killing week old calves, I have seen it happen. Most calf kills are newborns.

Why would mature coyotes target new born calves in a pasture full of week old calves if they prefer the healthier animals?

I guess coyotes don't read this forum huh?

Why do coyotes prefer small lambs over yearling lambs running in the same pasture when they are capable of killing both? Which is the weaker animal, the yearling ewe or the lamb?

I guess those coyotes didn't read this forum either.

How many of you guys are documenting coyote kills yearround like I am?

A younger animal is a weaker animal and coyotes target younger animals in sheep and cattle all the time.

I can quote the Cook Ranch Study which documented an average 26% lamb loss on a 1200 ewe operation in Western Montana for three years in the absence of a predator control program which was the objective of the study. That study stated that coyotes showed no preference for sick or weak animals. To simply read that at face value, one would think it agrees with what some of you have stated. Their definition of "weak" is injured. Hell, they may not have had any injured lambs to choose from. On the other hand, if they define "weak" as younger, then I can assure you that those coyotes targeted younger animals because I have been documenting lamb losses for 20 years. They don't say, "gee, I think I'll kill that fat bastard over there". They single out a young lamb and they kill it. Denver research has actual video footage of coyotes singling out a lamb and killing it and I can assure you it wasn't the fatest healthiest lamb in the bunch. It was the lamb the coyote figured he could kill the easiest.

Most herds don't have many sick or weak (injured or malnourished) animals so coyotes kill the easiest targets and that's the younger and easier lambs.

Ok someone answer this question. Is wolf predation higher on elk calves or mature elk? Is wolf predation higher on moose calves or mature moose. There is plenty of documented cases of wolves killing both mature elk and mature moose. Now tell me which is the weaker animal, the calves or the mature cows?

I can't believe this is even subject to debate.

Perhaps we are getting bogged down in the definition of weaker. I consider younger animals, weaker animals not necessarily animals with physical incapabilities.

~SH~

[ April 05, 2007, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on April 06, 2007, 12:49 AM:
 

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I can't believe this is even subject to debate.

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O.K scott settle down and crack a sunkist buddy we're just having a discussion nobody just called you mother names

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It was the lamb the coyote figured he could kill the easiest

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Maybe Wiley is right, but it does seem to me that, more often than not, it doesn't come down to selecting deer A or deer B; one apparently healthy and the other crippled. At least in some of my areas where winter is a lot less harsh.

Being opportunistic as they are, it may be the fact that a deer has made a tactical error?

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Which comes full circle - coyotes only kill the fawns that would have died anyway. I guess she was right

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Wrong Wrong Wrong! If you take the coyotes out of the equation there would be a higher fawn population come winter WITH OUT A DOUBT.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 07, 2007, 12:35 PM:
 
Wiley, different regions sure could be a factor. The predator control guy who told me this worked in western Oregon. The sheep were mostly in fenced pastures, in brush and timber country rather than open range. After I posted I got to thinking also about the size of prey being a factor. Could be.

On a tangent but maybe related, in that area of Oregon, a rancher and the predator control officer told me that coyotes will sometimes kill a bunch of sheep in a pasture in one night if the sheep aren't protected. They may eat the liver out of one or may not eat any of them. That appears (from human reasoning) to be killing for the fun of chasing down prey, and is opportunistic. Selective killing of prey or killing beyond basic food need probably depends somewhat on how hard or easy a meal is to come by.

Most coyotes I've skinned have been fat, some of them mud fat. There are exceptions: a skinny Southern California yearling female who had been cut up bad from a fight with other coyotes about ten days earlier; a huge ancient male in the Canadian Rockies with teeth worn to his gum line.

I've never owned sheep, never lost a cow brute to a coyote, but have lived around coyotes and observed them all of my life. I saw a coyote standing about ten feet from a cow and her newborn calf that she hadn't licked off yet. The cow was still trailing afterbirth and she had her head down facing the coyote with her calf behind her. The coyote just stood there relaxed, looking at her as I went by on a Greyhound bus. Satus Creek in Washington State, probably Yakima tribal land. Also killed a couple of coyotes eating out the rear end of a heifer that died while birthing a calf (have no idea if coyotes killed her or not). Actually, have killed a bunch of them over dead beef or dead horse, but the coyotes didn't kill the bait.

I've watched a coyote walk slowly through a herd of cows on calving grounds in early spring. The rancher beside me, as we looked out his window, kept an eye on the coyote for awhile but didn't reach for a rifle. His people have a thing about coyotes however and some won't kill them. I didn't ask. No cows in the midst of calving at that moment.

Coyotes are the most interesting animal I know, smart, and very complex because they are smart. I've watched a summer coyote trot along three feet behind the cutter bar looking for mice as a man on a tractor mows alfalfa. I've also seen coyotes in the same fields that winter, 500 yards from the road, break into a dead run to the horizon if a pick-up slowed to stop. That was during the years of high fur prices.

Pardon my rambling. I muse in type but I learn from you all and enjoy it.

[ April 07, 2007, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 09, 2007, 07:36 AM:
 
I agree with you Wiley. I don't agree with the words the reporter used. Thats why I said Fish and Game should educate the PR person next time, at the very first.
A study was done in Yellowstone with the elk and wolves. They looked at bone marrow content on the elk that wolves had killed. Every elk killed had bone marrow content well below that of average healthy elk. They recorded some of the kills on video and there was no way to tell which elk had lower than normal levels of bone marrow. But the wolves did, and those are the ones they killed. I know wolves and coyotes are different and I'm not comparing them here. However, it makes one think for a minute.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2007, 10:37 AM:
 
Not me, it doesn't. First of all, wolves and elk have nothing to do with the subject. We might as well dig up observations involving kangaroos and dingos?

Knowing "scientific whores" (as I do) I'm surprised they didn't study bladder contents, or bad versus good cholesterol.

It is ludicrous to think these mystic (and transplanted Canadian) wolves can spot elk with low bone marrow content.... from the bushes. I'm sorry.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 09, 2007, 02:47 PM:
 
True leonard we should look at dingos, maybe we could key in on behavior with the dingo predator prey relationships that may spark intrest to see if the same behavior exsits with coyote predator prey relationships.
I'm not trying to compare apples and oranges with wolves and coyotes. I'm suggesting there maybe something to key on behavior with preditor prey relationships. Why kill this prey vs that one? And why would all the elk tested have bone marrow below a certain level. What did the wolves key in on?
What health indicators could we measure on animals that coyotes kill? What behavior would the prey show to the coyote to indicate that the animal may below average with the indicators selected? Does the coyote key in on that behavior. Is prey selection inate or learned? Makes me think for a minute.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2007, 02:53 PM:
 
Well, I will concede one point, that they have shown that dogs can detect lung cancer by sniffing someone's breath, 99% accuracy, much better than any machine. We may never know the extent of what a canine can do, other than speculation.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on April 09, 2007, 03:21 PM:
 
They help blind people see too.
I see were this is going.
Planet of the Canines. Maybe we could get a good reporter from Idaho to introduce the movie.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on April 09, 2007, 06:54 PM:
 
Leonard: "Well, I will concede one point, that they have shown that dogs can detect lung cancer by sniffing someone's breath, 99% accuracy, much better than any machine."

I'd never heard that before. Thanks for sharing that!

~SH~
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on April 09, 2007, 08:40 PM:
 
I love to sit & watch these debates. What a hoot.
 

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