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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 27, 2007, 09:05 PM:
 
How many of you realize that WHERE a coyote is educated to calling is just as important as HOW they were educated (what sound)?

When you talk about "call shy coyotes", most assume that a "call shy coyote" is any coyote that has been called in and shot at.

When I think about "call shy coyotes", I think of coyotes that were called IN A CERTAIN PLACE, WITH A CERTAIN SOUND, and missed.

What I am getting at is that for a coyote to become truly "call shy", they need to hear the same kinds of sounds from numerous places. If they only associate the danger of a certain distress call to a certain area, they can still be called from other areas with the same sound.

For instance, if a coyote has been called in and shot at, they may associate gun fire with danger. On the other hand, if they are near a pr. dog town that gets shot a lot, they associate the gunfire FROM THAT LOCATION to mean lunch.

"Shyness" to any situation is a CONDITIONED RESPONSE to that situation but it doesn't take much of a change to overcome that shyness. In most cases, a different sound from a different direction will cure the problem.

I think shy coyotes can learn to differentiate between an actual rabbit and someone blowing a rabbit distress on a commercial call.

I am absolutely convinced that this issue of "shyness" has a lot of variables associated with it.

Your thoughts?

~SH~

[ March 27, 2007, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on March 27, 2007, 09:46 PM:
 
In "MY" area, under "MY" hunting situations, from "MY" experiences, I can't conclude there is such a thing as a "Call shy" coyote. I have a particular tree from which I call in 8-10 coyotes per year. Have been doing it since the mid 80's. Only one coyote responded with extreme caution during that time. He was an old grey faced male with worn teeth. He would not come in till a younger coyote started in and he came in to run it off, rather than to the sound I was producing. I don't think he was call shy, but rather not interested in covering open ground to get to a hurt rabbit. Twice in as many years, I have called in three legged coyotes from the same sitting spot with the same call on two other preperties I hunt. They were three legged because in both cases the shooter a week earlier had shot the front leg off at the knee joint.

on Edit: I realized I didn't give my conclussion;
Based on my experiences, if I am in hearing distance of a coyote that is interested in the sound I am making he will come in. The only "shyness" I have witnessed was caused by my lack of attention to detail in the setup. I attribute my dry stands to the fact that there was not an interested coyote in hearing distance at that moment or I bungled the setup.

[ March 27, 2007, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2007, 10:27 PM:
 
Call shy and light shy is caused by Utah road hunters in Nevada.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 28, 2007, 06:32 AM:
 
I think that "call shy" is way over used. Nowadays anyone that has a coyote hung up thinks "he's played this game before" where in MY opinion a lot of the time it is the fact that the hunter screwed up something coming in or in the setup.
We all like to blame something else besides ourselves for lack of success
I believe that MOST coyotes can be called in again just from a different location especially if you switch sounds but i don't believe it is always neccessary to switch sounds. I don't believe that it is that easy to 'condition" a coyote to a sound that he hears on such a regular basis.

Scott i don't know that i can agree with the thought on coyotes knowing the difference bewteen real rabbit screams and a call but i have to think about it a little more
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2007, 06:43 AM:
 

quote:

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I think shy coyotes can learn to differentiate between an actual rabbit and someone blowing a rabbit distress on a commercial call.

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quote:

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Scott i don't know that i can agree with the thought on coyotes knowing the difference bewteen real rabbit screams and a call but i have to think about it a little more

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Yeah, he's starting to sound like Sly!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 28, 2007, 07:13 AM:
 
There are many variables to consider, and one of the most important variable for coyote callers to realize is that each and every coyote in an individual. There are smart coyotes, dumb coyotes, brave coyotes and cowardly coyotes. There are coyotes that will come nearly every time it hears a call, and there are others that become very hard to call once it has a bad experience by coming to the screams, but manages to escape without wearing a new hole in it's body.
I believe that most coyotes do have the ability to learn that the screams from an enclosed reed call is something to be cautious of. I also believe that most coyotes have the ability to learn the sounds of a certain person blowing a call. Changing your stand location and using the same old sound will probably not be as successful as changing stand location and using a different calling sound. There are a few people I know who will go out on a stand and give away his entire library of sounds on that stand. I believe that doing so is a good way to quickly educate the resident coyotes to your ruse.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 28, 2007, 07:19 AM:
 
How do you tell the difference between shy and just plain cautious?I would think a coyote that has never experienced a call situation could be naturally cautious enough to be termed shy.The truly call shy coyote may be the one that never even appears and therefore we do not even have the opportunity to term him as shy.I kinda of think that any coyote that shows himself at a stand is not really that shy ,they just exhibit varying levels of cautiousness based on that particular individual and his experiences.I often wonder too if a coyote can hear clear through whatever sound is being blown right to the machine or individual blowing the call and attach recognition to it.As far as educating coyotes, I compare it to farm dogs I have had that leave the farm or strays that come to my place, if I chase them home just once with the sound of a shotgun blast that is the last time they choose to leave the farm. They never forget it.Very effective behavoir conditioning. thanks
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2007, 07:33 AM:
 
In response to that question, 6mm. Glass, or just observe a bedded coyote from the road, unaware of your presence. He might do one of three things:

1)Come to the call, 2)look, but ignore, or 3)get up and run the other way as fast as his little legs can carry him.

I'd like to think that in situation #3, this "yote" has heard a Foxpro before.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 28, 2007, 07:58 AM:
 
6mm284,
I agree with most of your thoughts on this subject. I live in the city, and I make predator calls. I blow the predator calls a lot. The dogs around here used to bark like crazy when they heard my calls, but they don't even pay attention to those screams anymore. There was a time when I could lip squeak the neighborhood cats right up to easy BB gun range, but not anymore. I believe that coyotes are much wiser than domestic dogs or cats, at least concerning the screams of a predator call.
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 28, 2007, 09:40 AM:
 
My thoughts about cautious coyotes reaches beyond calling situations, at least since Wiley E. got me thinking about why my howls repelled a coyote in one instance. I envision the family group hunting through the summer up until dispersal. Each time the YOY hear distress they go running and usually get there after mom or dad has taken possession of the animal or has it killed. In these cases they find a friend willing to share the good fortune. After dispersal the game changes. I don’t think that it would take too much of a whooping from a stronger animal to condition them to be a little more cautious to any distress sound, if it was produced by a hunter or not. Just my thoughts I could be wrong.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 28, 2007, 10:50 AM:
 
Bryan, your thoughts remind me of something semi-related. I often read on the internet about how come Fall, the YoY just come galloping into the call. My experience has always been that the hard chargers in Fall are more commonly adults, than YoY, and that the cautious approaches in early season are more often the YoY.

Which goes right along with what you are thinking. I think.

- DAA
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 28, 2007, 12:25 PM:
 
Rich and Leonard some good points there.
I have some areas i call every year, and there are always coyotes there. I missed some of the coyotes or called in a pair and got one and lost the other. I always used the same stand and same sounds and i ended up with some conditioned coyotes. I would come back a month or year later and this coyote would always be there.. I decided to try something different, i used a different sound and set up my stand a little different and i was able to call in this old coyote and get him. A light went off in my head and i thought hey i got something going here. I thought i would test it out again so i went to another area where i new there was another old coyote hanging out. I set up a little different and used the same sound as what was used on the first.. This coyote took much longer to come in, but i also got him. What did i learn? I learned what some of you have been saying all along, the right time, the right conditions, and the the right sounds can bring in those call wise coyotes.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 28, 2007, 12:26 PM:
 
Time!
One experience with a certain call and a certain sound may not effect them as much as multiple incidents or getting a giant whiff of Eau de Human while coming to a certain sound the first time. This is just my thinking about the subject. If they associate a certain sound with a smell (tinny rabitt equals human) they are probably more apt to be cautious quicker than say sound to sound (Rabbit distress equals gunshot). As I have stated before, novice callers throwing caution, scent and sound to the wind will screw up more calling for more people then road and dog hunters ever will.
Just out the back door of my house a couple years back, I called in the same pair of red fox 3 different times over a 2 month span using the same exact sound from nearly the same exact location but at different times of the day or night. After not getting dead and not getting to eat what they wanted they stopped responding to the call. I never fired a shot and never (I think) got winded. They just never came back. If I was to go to the opposite side of the field I was calling and use the same sound would they respond? Possibly.

[ March 28, 2007, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 28, 2007, 01:10 PM:
 
I don't believe you can compare foxes to coyotes. Fox canbe called in a few times with the same sound and thats it game over. by going to a mouse squeak you maybe could get them to come one more time.. Thats one of the reasons fox can be so hard to call compared to coyotes, the fox tend to shy away from the sounds more than the coyote... The best way to know for sure is to do what you did with the two foxes and then try it again with other sounds. From my exsperiance with fox they will get up and run away once they grow wery of the sound...
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 28, 2007, 05:04 PM:
 
Some of you will recall that I used to drive down to texas every year, just to call coyotes. I would have to check the old file cabinet down in my basement to be sure, but I believe it was in early 1990's that I went down there the first time. I would stay down there for four or five days, and spent a lot of time calling coyotes behind locked gates on private property. The coyotes were easy to call. I recall writing a couple of magazine articles about calling texas coyotes. I had real good luck down there for the first few years, and then I noticed that the coyotes were not coming in like they once did. It could be that the population of coyotes was down somewhat, but my suspicion is that the coyotes were wising up to my calling activities. I believe that my last calling safari down in texas took place in the year 2000. I took a coyote or three, but the calling was not nearly as good as it had been when I first began going there. Can coyotes wise up to your calling? I think so.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 28, 2007, 05:22 PM:
 
Oh ya leonard, I have seen all three of the results you described on known bedded coyotes on numerous occasions.Unfortunately it was before the days of foxpro or electronic calls.The ones most puzzling are the ones that won't even indicate they even heard the call.No response whatsoever.The most disappointing are those that get up and run at mach speed away.Now I just try to position for a shot on those and skip the call.thanks
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 28, 2007, 06:33 PM:
 
"The most disappointing are those that get up and run at mach speed away."
----------------------
6mm284,
Your are supposed to go wah-wahhhh-waaahhhh on a predator call, not honk-honk HONNNKKKKK on your truck horn. I will demonstrate right after you buy my breakfast up at the Interstate cafe. You know the place.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 28, 2007, 06:37 PM:
 
Would that happen to be the " oldhome keep-on trucking cafe"
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 28, 2007, 06:49 PM:
 
TA17Rem,
No, but I have actually ate at The "Old home fill er up and keep on Truckin' Cafe" a few times. That cafe was over at Pisgah, Iowa. It was over near Pisgah that I killed five wet bitches and one old male in something over a weeks time. I was working a sheep killing complaint. Wrote an article for Varmint Hunter magazine about that deal. What a life I was living back then, what a life indeed.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 28, 2007, 09:39 PM:
 


[ March 28, 2010, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 29, 2007, 06:49 AM:
 
DAA: "I often read on the internet about how come Fall, the YoY just come galloping into the call. My experience has always been that the hard chargers in Fall are more commonly adults, than YoY, and that the cautious approaches in early season are more often the YoY."

Interesting DAA! I don't doubt your observations just wondering why you think this is the case in your situation?

Were you howling in combination with distress?

Rabbit 101?

When you say Fall, how early are you talking?

Mouse squeaks to begin with might change that then move to other sounds later in the stand.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 29, 2007, 07:20 AM:
 
Scott, I think we make a coyote out to be this complex, human like thinking creature. A call shy, educated or whatever you want to call it is just an animal that reacts to positive and negative happenings in a given territory.

A negative happening with a rabbit sound being why the coyote headed that way in the first place will not stop the coyote from responding to a rabbit scream, I think we forget that many a positive happening has happened from hearing that sound in it's world also.That being said repeated sounds and gunshots with escapes are making your odds of taking that coyote go up a bunch!

Weather extremes, pups, and mating season will make call shy, educated coyotes do things it normally would not.It's survival at some points.

The approach to and from the calling area, selection of stands,camo,and knowledge of the area you are hunting and who, when and where it has been called from put the hurt on those escapees.

I agree with you that calling to the same coyotes, with the same sound from a different location most times will bring them in, it may take longer and require a longer shot or more coaxing etc. it can be done, but I just choose a different distress I may use the same area to call from may not, sometimes it's all ya got! Work smarter not harder!!

I think the calling world has fallen into the trap of a secret sound, a new more expensive call,whether it be hand held or electronic will kill more coyotes. In the hands of some YES but for most the expectations fall short.If you are a 10 handicap golfer and buy Tigers clubs you won't make the tour the following week.You may get better but if you were expecting Tiger like numbers forget it!

Here is a scenario of events that happened about three weeks ago, to big drainages about 1 mile apart. I glass a carcass in the first drainage and a coyote is on it,it feeds goes over the hill out of sight. I set up off the carcass, howl he charges in dead. Next drainage coyote on the carcass sneak in, I can see him feeding and he doesn't see me, I howl he hits the jets and is out of there. Do I think he is educated to a howl? Heck no, I think he was a scavenger on a carcass that he knew belonged to some other coyote and I sounded like him and he wasn't waiting for the butt kickin.

I think coyotes that have established territories respond differently than coyotes that are still finding theirs. Many of these shy timid responces are from these coyotes.

As for the coyote being able to tell a hand held rabbit scream from an electronic actual rabbit scream, I don't believe the sound it self will make the difference but the volume will, I think the volume will, not always, trigger the responce without so much hesitation, I think it sounds closer to the coyote when the coyote is farther away and tends to make him come harder from longer distances. I think the volume increses your odds of him responding, I'm not talking about wide open right away but working into it. In this wide open country I think the volume of quality sounds is very important. A coyote is used to hearing a rabbit scream they all sound different but the volume of the rabbit scream when they kill one is about the same, pretty dam loud at the end of their nose and loud when your partner gets one! A rabbit that sounds like it's dying a half mile a way with normal volome and a rabbit dying a half mile away with the same volume a coyote hears when it's on the end of his nose triggers a more agressive responce in most cases. That's what I see anyway. That's just me trying to put coyote logic in my experiences in the field, may be way off but it works for me. I am not saying just simply crank it up from the same spot you missed one from and the coyote will knock ya over, not that easy! Just that the volume of a distess call may envoke a responce that normally would not.

Why do coyotes fear pickups and not tractors, combines? How do they figure out to hunt the pheasant sloughs after dark during the pheasant season and stay in them all day when it closes? Why do they run from us walking across a pasture and cows deer etc. never get a second glance. Follow escape routes almost the same everytime. The list goes on and on. It's a positive and negative ,pretty much vanilla and chocolate world to a coyote we mold them into a nightmare or a wet dream LOL

Wiley how'd I do on the funding LOL!!!!!!
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 29, 2007, 08:27 AM:
 
"Interesting DAA! I don't doubt your observations just wondering why you think this is the case in your situation?"

Hell, I don't know why... I've got a couple ideas, but not a lot of confidence in them. Mostly, I just chalk it up as "one of those things". If I HAD to make a guess out loud, I would say it's probably a combination of factors. Just judging by the number of adults vs. YoY my partner and I kill, I think that the areas I seek out to hunt tend to have a higher ratio of adults than more heavily hunted areas do. For the last several seasons, more than half our coyotes have been adults and it seems like we get a lot of larger (34 - 40 pound), older (2+, juding by teeth) coyotes. This leads me to believe that we are hunting relatively stable populations. Which would lead me to believe that there are a lot of resident old coyotes around. So, I think that maybe in late Sep. and early Oct., when the YoY are just setting out on their own for the first time, that they have a few things going on which might cause them to be more cautious approaching a distress cry than the adults. One being simply what I believe is the natural tendency of all coyotes to react cautiously to anything "new" or "unusual" in their environment. I'm not so sure that a five-six month old pup really has all that much experience or exposure to screaming rabbits? Maybe they do? Probably varies quite a bit, both by area and individual coyote? But, anyway, I don't think it's too far fetched to suppose that some YoY in late Sep. or early Oct. have little experience with screaming rabbits and will be naturually cautious approaching the sound. And I use pretty much straight screaming jack rabbit and nothing else that time of year. Another factor I suspect, and maybe this is the bigger factor, is all those adults in the area. Again, I really don't know, and this is nothing more than a guess, but I think that many of these YoY have probably just recently experienced getting kicked to the end of the chow line by older coyotes that they had never met before. I make this guess partly on how the older coyotes tend to respond at that time of year. They really come charging, head up, guard hairs erect. I can't help but wonder if the dynamics of change going on in coyoteville at that time of year don't have the old ones all ready to kick some YoY ass and take a meal from them when they hear that rabbit scream? While at the same time the YoY are worried about that happening?

But, really, like I said to begin with, I don't know...

- DAA
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 29, 2007, 08:33 AM:
 
Very good and informative post Randy..Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 29, 2007, 08:54 AM:
 
Dave, at first glance (based your results) I was thinking that you might be thinking opposite of what I was. After I realized a few differences it fits in perfectly….I think. However, I did have to take it further than I had before. I hadn’t thought about the positive reinforcement of the adults.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 29, 2007, 09:21 AM:
 
Randy,

I agree with a lot of what you said. I have said on numerous occasions that each coyote is an individual and each coyote has a certain level of curiousity and a certain level of caution based on their previous life's experiences.

There is no question in my mind that all of these calling contests have changed how MANY, not all, coyotes react to COMMON calling techniques. If what I am using for a call and where I am calling from is the same combination that someone used before me, I am behind the 8 ball without knowing it. Unfortunately there is far more coyotes that are called in and missed than are called in and shot.

I agree that coyotes will not quit responding to dying rabbits or dying fawns. To do so would be to quit eating. I do believe SOME coyotes will cautiously respond downwind or take a lot of time coming to a call that sounds the same as the last time they approached this call and it's coming from the same place which resulted in a person shooting at them.

I don't believe "call shy" is just the result of a call, I believe it's the result of A CERTAIN CALL coming from a CERTAIN PLACE which may have been preceeded by the sound of a vehicle.

CONDITIONED RESPONSE!

I agree that certain situations such as adverse weather, territorial defense, or den defense will make coyotes throw caution to the wind for a greater good.

I am thoroughly convinced that SOME coyotes can differentiate between an actual rabbit and CERTAIN CALLERS blowing a rabbit call. Hell, I can tell the difference and a coyote's hearing is far better than mine. If that wasn't the case, dog's couldn't identify the sounds of certain engines over others and they can and do.

I remember calling from a stand with DJ Schroeder next to the park on public land. It was the classic park the vehicle, walk to the top of the hill, brush the empty cases out of the way, plop your ass down and call the park type of stand. I howled. Coyote came in very cautiosly and paced back and forth. DJ said, let me blow the rabbit call and he'll come through that fence. Well he blew rabbit 101 and that coyote ran from the park like he just hit an electric fence. I've seen that same thing before. Same place same sound!

RR: "I think the volume will, not always, trigger the responce without so much hesitation, I think it sounds closer to the coyote when the coyote is farther away and tends to make him come harder from longer distances. I think the volume increses your odds of him responding, I'm not talking about wide open right away but working into it. In this wide open country I think the volume of quality sounds is very important."

As far as volume, volume is important to reach more coyotes and that will trigger more response. There is no question in my mind about that but I can't say volume, in and of itself, creates a better response but I can't say it doesn't either. If you turned the volume down, as long as the coyote can hear it, I believe the response would be the same but I would certainly be willing to test your theory.

In some cases, I believe too much volume can be detrimental. Sure, howls are loud and rabbit screams are loud but there is a clear difference between the authenticity of an actual rabbit, an actual howl, and the the distortion from a WT speaker at full volume. I can hear the distortion. As soon as that distortion is associated with a bad experience, distortion can become your enemy. Back to dogs identifying certain engine noises. At least at this point, this distortion might not be too common due to the cost.

Try this, the next time you spot a coyote at a half mile, give that coyote a dose of "wabbit scweams" at a low volume and keep turning it up until he hears it. When he hears it and turns to respond, see how closely that coyote comes to the origin of that sound without turning the call on again. Research has shown that coyotes can detect the origin of a sound within 30 feet at 1/2 mile in a straight line of sound but I don't know how they handled the variable of volume which may change the results.

I think volume is important too but only from the standpoint of reaching more coyotes but I could be wrong.

I also agree that a non territorial coyote's response to a coyote howl could be due to it's non territorial status IF THAT HOWL SOUNDED REALISTIC to that particular coyote. Again, I believe some coyotes could quickly associate the distortion of an electronic caller from an actual coyote howl.

How did you do on the funding? Sorry but I must have missed it.

~SH~

[ March 29, 2007, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 29, 2007, 10:16 AM:
 
The answer to the question; do YOY respond eagarly or timidly (I suppose) depends on the specific conditions and the population dynamics.

I have observed timid, YOY peeking from behind a bush while eagar adults have already been shot and in other circumstances, peeking from behind a bush with no other coyotes in sight and a coyote bursts from cover in an opposite direction. This is probably not a hard and fast rule, but YOY can be both timid and bold....depending?

Good hunting. LB

I notice TA has discovered the meaning of "YOY"? lol
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 29, 2007, 11:13 AM:
 
Daa interesting take on those young coyotes. I too have seen in early fall Sept and First part of Oct many adults running in to beat the YOY coyotes. Here is my take on this happening, you have those YOY coyotes still in close proximity to ma and pa, and I think they are all living the good life so to say and they hear the rabbitt blues, ma and pa know the kids are close and it is a greed issue and want to beat the freshly booted out kids to the dinner table, instincts based on the survial of the fittest and you have the adults come a racin in. I had a stand in Sept last year, I hit the rabbit and in 3 mins hear comes 2 coyotes, followed by 2 more. The first 2 I dumped was an adult male and yoy female then next one was a YOY male and the last an adult female, after some of the shooting she shyed back because of the noise but it didn't take much more of the rabbit blues to have her broadside at 75 yrds.It sure made for some fun,exiting action and I have had this happen on other stands as well.Greed I think plays into it when you still have those losse family groups in the early fall.

I could be all wet, but I thought about it for a while after having stands of multiples and seeing what I killed after the fact as to why.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 29, 2007, 11:31 AM:
 
If this test was possible I think the following would happen, you playing your WT on a jack rabbit recording of digital quality a real rabbit sound on a coyote at a half mile. Just enough sound like you said so he just hears it. All things equal which is hopeless, and me with a handheld call much louder, lets say like the WT half throttle vs wide open from a half mile away in another direction no wind and we both start at the same time which one is he going to.I think the volume at the half mile puts a sense of urgency and a false impression that it is closer and an easier meal.Place your votes!
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 29, 2007, 11:39 AM:
 
As for the distortion what we hear and they hear I can't compare. A rabbit screamin for his life distorts a wee bit. Your going to have to talk to Bill about soundwaves, distortion, etc. I've heard guys howl at 10 feet and they sounded like crap but at 200 yards from him it sounded dam good.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 29, 2007, 02:15 PM:
 
RR: "I think the volume at the half mile puts a sense of urgency and a false impression that it is closer and an easier meal.Place your votes!"

If he thinks it's closer due to the volume, if you only play the sound one time at high volume, using your theory, he should come about halfway and start looking around.

From my experience, if you give him full volume the first time, he knows EXACTLY how close he is to the source of that sound. Don't believe me? Play it once and see where he finally stops to look around. That coyote will be in gun range when he finally stops. Their sense of where that sound came from is uncanny. I have seen this hundreds of times.

What are we betting?

Ok, I'll take your bet. You can call from the hill nearest to where the rancher checks his cattle and you blow your call at full volume and I'll slip in the backside of the comfort zone and blow my call at half volume. YOU'RE ON!

RR: "Your going to have to talk to Bill about soundwaves, distortion, etc."

No thanks!

I can tell the difference between an electronic call and an actual coyote so why would you be surprised that a coyote could? It's not an issue until a coyote has been burned by that same "somewhat distorted" sound.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 29, 2007, 05:17 PM:
 
Ok ,you got an educated coyote Wiley, like usual!!

I think the volume of the true sound is more important that the quality of the sound, just me the relocated Iowaeign thinkin, i'll have you know after the third brandin ordeal my producers de Iowad me!Painful ordeal it was, bad headache!

The bet doesn't say anything about getting him to 10 feet,just dead!Wiley tellem about the one you shot at two times,and missed standing!!! and how I had to clean it up at 500 yards!!LOL Bet you guys never heard about that one.

Leave the part out about you showing me your pulled hamstring, still etched in my mind!!

Equal volume of the two sounds and I think your odds of him coming to one or the other are 50-50.Just me your old favorite Tomcat MMEEEOOOWWW
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 29, 2007, 09:45 PM:
 
I have to agree about the howl sounding like crap from 20 ft but great at 200yds its a funny thing.

Scott how far would you say that you can tell the difference between a coyote and a man on a howler? Obviously there is some difference on who the caller is. I find it hard to believe that a human ear has the capabilities to distinguish at any kind of distance. I know that you certainly have the field time and the knowledge but the human ear is just not very good.

[ March 29, 2007, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: nd coyote killer ]
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 30, 2007, 04:47 AM:
 
I think coyotes may have an a spatial sense of their territory that at great distances they may know that a particular call is not within their domain and may be why sometimes they will not come.I have seen times when calling on one side of a heavily dunged two tracker the coyote may vocalize but not come in, then move across the road and out a little ways and here he comes. May all be coincidental, and coincidence can lead to lots of incorrect conclusions, but since coyotes will use roads to sign and establish territorial boundaries and I have seen this reponse numerous times it leads me to believe it is true.Sort of like homing once they fix a point. I Once used a remote controlled call and turned it off when I saw a pair coming at 3/4 mile, when the lead coyote stopped I dropped him on top of the call.

[ March 30, 2007, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 30, 2007, 06:24 AM:
 
6mm- good point - I believe they same as you do that a louder sound causes coyotes to react one way or the other. Sometimes good sometimes bad and the increased distance the soundwaves are traveling may set up the event you described.This again may lead us to the false impression of an educated coyote and it's just a borderline issue. Cross that invisible line between the coyote and yourself and he boils in.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 30, 2007, 08:06 AM:
 
Bryon J "After dispersal the game changes. I don’t think that it would take too much of a whooping from a stronger animal to condition them to be a little more cautious to any distress sound, if it was produced by a hunter or not."

How often do you think these whoopings occur?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 30, 2007, 10:40 AM:
 
Hey Dennis, I really don’t know how often it would occur. As usual when talking coyote it would have to depend on several variables, including the population of other predators in the area. The way that I have it worked out in my feeble mind it would happen each time the YOY responded to a distress sound from a more aggressive animals kill or a more dominant animal responded too as well. The point I was trying to make is that there could be natural occurring forms of negative reinforcement that could lead to a perceived “call shy” coyote.(depending on what you consider "call shy") Depending on the area it could happen more or less often.

Here is the story related to me/us by Wiley E., here on HM, that got me going down this path of thought:

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SH: “This reminds me of a story. A good friend of mine snuck up on a pair of howling coyotes. Pretty soon another lone coyote came in from a different direction. When the pair spotted the coyote they ran down and literally kicked his ass. The dispersal coyote was laying on it's back pissing all over itself. The pair wandered off and layed down. The minute the gypsy, nomad, yearling, dispersor, loner, or whatever we want to call it tried to make a break, the pair ran over and kicked his ass again. The loner laid there until the pair finally wandered off and he headed for parts unknown.

Now consider that you may have been the next caller to blow the howler at him. LOL! Get my point?”
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He was talking about howls here, but I got to thinking why couldn’t that happen with distress as well? If it is bullshit I will take the heat. Like I said just my thoughts and imagination, it could be off base.

I wonder, in an extreme case, if a coyote who had no positive reinforcement (all negative) with rabbit distress if he would drop the rabbit he just caught and run if it screamed? LOL
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 30, 2007, 11:36 AM:
 
RR: "Wiley tellem about the one you shot at two times,and missed standing!!! and how I had to clean it up at 500 yards!!LOL Bet you guys never heard about that one."

Haha! You bet! I'm surprised you didn't ask me to squeeze the trigger for you too.

Gotta admit I had the wind down, just missed on the distance.

ND: "Scott how far would you say that you can tell the difference between a coyote and a man on a howler?"

Depends on the quality of the howl. Most I have heard could be distinguised to a half mile. Most callers blowing on a coyote howler does not sound like a coyote howl. Close but there is a difference. I'm not saying that they won't attract coyotes, I'm saying once a coyote associates a human blown howl with a human they will have no trouble differentiating much the same way dogs can identify the sounds of an individual pickup engine.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 30, 2007, 01:39 PM:
 
Bryan

No calling BS, It's just something that's been discussed by me and a calling partner for years. Talking about things like should we both howl or just one? Howl and then distress or just distress. Use a whimpy high pitched howl or one that sounds like a real howl. Agressive deep throaty voice howl? Which coyotes initiate howls ? Do transients defend territory to the point that they will come to a howl. Etc.

I just find it interesting that besides other callers educating my coyote, I have to worry about other coyote educating my coyote.

Who's messing with my dots?

Dennis

[ March 30, 2007, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 30, 2007, 02:44 PM:
 
Dennis, I didn’t think that you were calling BS. My statement about taking the heat if it is BS was because I took an isolated instance shared by Wiley E. and applied it to a much larger scale. If it floats I believe that Wiley deserves credit for steering me down this path of thinking. If it doesn’t….well that lies with me. I assure you that I don’t have the confidence, experience or desire to defend my thoughts to the degree that others might defend theirs.

In my mind I don’t think that the negative reinforcement is dished out JUST by other coyote. The wings of a golden eagle can reach quite a ways and those talons are sharp. When I started thinking about that my dots moved all over too and I’m no closer to connecting them. LOL
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 30, 2007, 07:00 PM:
 
Wait a minute Wiley, you called me to come to your district with my dogs on your complaint, I get there just before light, locate the coyotes, an hour later you show up all gimped up from a pulled hamstring, we try the first stand and almost get bitten by a buzzer which you wouldn't let me shoot,nothing comes,we walk out almost get bitten again and you still won't let me shoot it, you want to go home, I talked you into another stand farther towards where I had heard them, I drove you in so you wouldn't have to Festus it so far,wind howlin, You punch my cur,a coyote comes in I send the dog out he runs him off he stands out there nothing else shows up, you shoot twice and miss I shoot end of story. The truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth!!!
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on March 30, 2007, 07:58 PM:
 
Dennis it is very interesting that your first coyotes of the season are adults? Just using rabbit distess.I could possibly see that if coyote vocalizations were only being used but just using rabbit here that time of the year and most will be YOY,Could be because of like you stated a healthy population and numbers with tight boundry lines and the adults feeling the need to defend them.

Also trying to recall types of responces that time of year from the YOY and a few females I remember were really cautious but nothing out of the ordinary.

I see more coyote ass whoopins in the late Dec. Jan timeframe when things are getting tough .That's when I will see a howl drive off a what I believe to be a YOY and evidence on the coyotes themselves, teeth marks on the flanks etc, that would lead me to believe those coyotes may be a little cautious.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2007, 10:03 PM:
 

quote:

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evidence on the coyotes themselves, teeth marks on the flanks etc, that would lead me to believe those coyotes may be a little cautious.

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Depends on the quality of the howl. Most I have heard could be distinguised to a half mile. Most callers blowing on a coyote howler does not sound like a coyote howl. Close but there is a difference. I'm not saying that they won't attract coyotes, I'm saying once a coyote associates a human blown howl with a human they will have no trouble differentiating much the same way dogs can identify the sounds of an individual pickup engine.

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