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Author
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Topic: What makes an educated coyote
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 27, 2007 09:05 PM
How many of you realize that WHERE a coyote is educated to calling is just as important as HOW they were educated (what sound)?
When you talk about "call shy coyotes", most assume that a "call shy coyote" is any coyote that has been called in and shot at.
When I think about "call shy coyotes", I think of coyotes that were called IN A CERTAIN PLACE, WITH A CERTAIN SOUND, and missed.
What I am getting at is that for a coyote to become truly "call shy", they need to hear the same kinds of sounds from numerous places. If they only associate the danger of a certain distress call to a certain area, they can still be called from other areas with the same sound.
For instance, if a coyote has been called in and shot at, they may associate gun fire with danger. On the other hand, if they are near a pr. dog town that gets shot a lot, they associate the gunfire FROM THAT LOCATION to mean lunch.
"Shyness" to any situation is a CONDITIONED RESPONSE to that situation but it doesn't take much of a change to overcome that shyness. In most cases, a different sound from a different direction will cure the problem.
I think shy coyotes can learn to differentiate between an actual rabbit and someone blowing a rabbit distress on a commercial call.
I am absolutely convinced that this issue of "shyness" has a lot of variables associated with it.
Your thoughts?
~SH~
[ March 27, 2007, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted March 27, 2007 09:46 PM
In "MY" area, under "MY" hunting situations, from "MY" experiences, I can't conclude there is such a thing as a "Call shy" coyote. I have a particular tree from which I call in 8-10 coyotes per year. Have been doing it since the mid 80's. Only one coyote responded with extreme caution during that time. He was an old grey faced male with worn teeth. He would not come in till a younger coyote started in and he came in to run it off, rather than to the sound I was producing. I don't think he was call shy, but rather not interested in covering open ground to get to a hurt rabbit. Twice in as many years, I have called in three legged coyotes from the same sitting spot with the same call on two other preperties I hunt. They were three legged because in both cases the shooter a week earlier had shot the front leg off at the knee joint.
on Edit: I realized I didn't give my conclussion;
Based on my experiences, if I am in hearing distance of a coyote that is interested in the sound I am making he will come in. The only "shyness" I have witnessed was caused by my lack of attention to detail in the setup. I attribute my dry stands to the fact that there was not an interested coyote in hearing distance at that moment or I bungled the setup.
[ March 27, 2007, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 27, 2007 10:27 PM
Call shy and light shy is caused by Utah road hunters in Nevada.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted March 28, 2007 06:32 AM
I think that "call shy" is way over used. Nowadays anyone that has a coyote hung up thinks "he's played this game before" where in MY opinion a lot of the time it is the fact that the hunter screwed up something coming in or in the setup.
We all like to blame something else besides ourselves for lack of success ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I believe that MOST coyotes can be called in again just from a different location especially if you switch sounds but i don't believe it is always neccessary to switch sounds. I don't believe that it is that easy to 'condition" a coyote to a sound that he hears on such a regular basis.
Scott i don't know that i can agree with the thought on coyotes knowing the difference bewteen real rabbit screams and a call but i have to think about it a little more ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 28, 2007 06:43 AM
quote:
I think shy coyotes can learn to differentiate between an actual rabbit and someone blowing a rabbit distress on a commercial call.
quote:
Scott i don't know that i can agree with the thought on coyotes knowing the difference bewteen real rabbit screams and a call but i have to think about it a little more
Yeah, he's starting to sound like Sly!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 28, 2007 07:13 AM
There are many variables to consider, and one of the most important variable for coyote callers to realize is that each and every coyote in an individual. There are smart coyotes, dumb coyotes, brave coyotes and cowardly coyotes. There are coyotes that will come nearly every time it hears a call, and there are others that become very hard to call once it has a bad experience by coming to the screams, but manages to escape without wearing a new hole in it's body.
I believe that most coyotes do have the ability to learn that the screams from an enclosed reed call is something to be cautious of. I also believe that most coyotes have the ability to learn the sounds of a certain person blowing a call. Changing your stand location and using the same old sound will probably not be as successful as changing stand location and using a different calling sound. There are a few people I know who will go out on a stand and give away his entire library of sounds on that stand. I believe that doing so is a good way to quickly educate the resident coyotes to your ruse.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted March 28, 2007 07:19 AM
How do you tell the difference between shy and just plain cautious?I would think a coyote that has never experienced a call situation could be naturally cautious enough to be termed shy.The truly call shy coyote may be the one that never even appears and therefore we do not even have the opportunity to term him as shy.I kinda of think that any coyote that shows himself at a stand is not really that shy ,they just exhibit varying levels of cautiousness based on that particular individual and his experiences.I often wonder too if a coyote can hear clear through whatever sound is being blown right to the machine or individual blowing the call and attach recognition to it.As far as educating coyotes, I compare it to farm dogs I have had that leave the farm or strays that come to my place, if I chase them home just once with the sound of a shotgun blast that is the last time they choose to leave the farm. They never forget it.Very effective behavoir conditioning. thanks
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 28, 2007 07:33 AM
In response to that question, 6mm. Glass, or just observe a bedded coyote from the road, unaware of your presence. He might do one of three things:
1)Come to the call, 2)look, but ignore, or 3)get up and run the other way as fast as his little legs can carry him.
I'd like to think that in situation #3, this "yote" has heard a Foxpro before.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 28, 2007 07:58 AM
6mm284,
I agree with most of your thoughts on this subject. I live in the city, and I make predator calls. I blow the predator calls a lot. The dogs around here used to bark like crazy when they heard my calls, but they don't even pay attention to those screams anymore. There was a time when I could lip squeak the neighborhood cats right up to easy BB gun range, but not anymore. I believe that coyotes are much wiser than domestic dogs or cats, at least concerning the screams of a predator call.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted March 28, 2007 09:40 AM
My thoughts about cautious coyotes reaches beyond calling situations, at least since Wiley E. got me thinking about why my howls repelled a coyote in one instance. I envision the family group hunting through the summer up until dispersal. Each time the YOY hear distress they go running and usually get there after mom or dad has taken possession of the animal or has it killed. In these cases they find a friend willing to share the good fortune. After dispersal the game changes. I don’t think that it would take too much of a whooping from a stronger animal to condition them to be a little more cautious to any distress sound, if it was produced by a hunter or not. Just my thoughts I could be wrong.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 28, 2007 10:50 AM
Bryan, your thoughts remind me of something semi-related. I often read on the internet about how come Fall, the YoY just come galloping into the call. My experience has always been that the hard chargers in Fall are more commonly adults, than YoY, and that the cautious approaches in early season are more often the YoY.
Which goes right along with what you are thinking. I think.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 28, 2007 12:25 PM
Rich and Leonard some good points there.
I have some areas i call every year, and there are always coyotes there. I missed some of the coyotes or called in a pair and got one and lost the other. I always used the same stand and same sounds and i ended up with some conditioned coyotes. I would come back a month or year later and this coyote would always be there.. I decided to try something different, i used a different sound and set up my stand a little different and i was able to call in this old coyote and get him. A light went off in my head and i thought hey i got something going here. I thought i would test it out again so i went to another area where i new there was another old coyote hanging out. I set up a little different and used the same sound as what was used on the first.. This coyote took much longer to come in, but i also got him. What did i learn? I learned what some of you have been saying all along, the right time, the right conditions, and the the right sounds can bring in those call wise coyotes.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5615 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted March 28, 2007 12:26 PM
Time!
One experience with a certain call and a certain sound may not effect them as much as multiple incidents or getting a giant whiff of Eau de Human while coming to a certain sound the first time. This is just my thinking about the subject. If they associate a certain sound with a smell (tinny rabitt equals human) they are probably more apt to be cautious quicker than say sound to sound (Rabbit distress equals gunshot). As I have stated before, novice callers throwing caution, scent and sound to the wind will screw up more calling for more people then road and dog hunters ever will.
Just out the back door of my house a couple years back, I called in the same pair of red fox 3 different times over a 2 month span using the same exact sound from nearly the same exact location but at different times of the day or night. After not getting dead and not getting to eat what they wanted they stopped responding to the call. I never fired a shot and never (I think) got winded. They just never came back. If I was to go to the opposite side of the field I was calling and use the same sound would they respond? Possibly.
[ March 28, 2007, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 28, 2007 01:10 PM
I don't believe you can compare foxes to coyotes. Fox canbe called in a few times with the same sound and thats it game over. by going to a mouse squeak you maybe could get them to come one more time.. Thats one of the reasons fox can be so hard to call compared to coyotes, the fox tend to shy away from the sounds more than the coyote... The best way to know for sure is to do what you did with the two foxes and then try it again with other sounds. From my exsperiance with fox they will get up and run away once they grow wery of the sound...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5615 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 28, 2007 05:04 PM
Some of you will recall that I used to drive down to texas every year, just to call coyotes. I would have to check the old file cabinet down in my basement to be sure, but I believe it was in early 1990's that I went down there the first time. I would stay down there for four or five days, and spent a lot of time calling coyotes behind locked gates on private property. The coyotes were easy to call. I recall writing a couple of magazine articles about calling texas coyotes. I had real good luck down there for the first few years, and then I noticed that the coyotes were not coming in like they once did. It could be that the population of coyotes was down somewhat, but my suspicion is that the coyotes were wising up to my calling activities. I believe that my last calling safari down in texas took place in the year 2000. I took a coyote or three, but the calling was not nearly as good as it had been when I first began going there. Can coyotes wise up to your calling? I think so.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted March 28, 2007 05:22 PM
Oh ya leonard, I have seen all three of the results you described on known bedded coyotes on numerous occasions.Unfortunately it was before the days of foxpro or electronic calls.The ones most puzzling are the ones that won't even indicate they even heard the call.No response whatsoever.The most disappointing are those that get up and run at mach speed away.Now I just try to position for a shot on those and skip the call.thanks
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 28, 2007 06:33 PM
"The most disappointing are those that get up and run at mach speed away."
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6mm284,
Your are supposed to go wah-wahhhh-waaahhhh on a predator call, not honk-honk HONNNKKKKK on your truck horn. I will demonstrate right after you buy my breakfast up at the Interstate cafe. You know the place.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 28, 2007 06:37 PM
Would that happen to be the " oldhome keep-on trucking cafe"
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5615 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 28, 2007 06:49 PM
TA17Rem,
No, but I have actually ate at The "Old home fill er up and keep on Truckin' Cafe" a few times. That cafe was over at Pisgah, Iowa. It was over near Pisgah that I killed five wet bitches and one old male in something over a weeks time. I was working a sheep killing complaint. Wrote an article for Varmint Hunter magazine about that deal. What a life I was living back then, what a life indeed.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 28, 2007 09:39 PM
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 28, 2010, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5615 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 29, 2007 06:49 AM
DAA: "I often read on the internet about how come Fall, the YoY just come galloping into the call. My experience has always been that the hard chargers in Fall are more commonly adults, than YoY, and that the cautious approaches in early season are more often the YoY."
Interesting DAA! I don't doubt your observations just wondering why you think this is the case in your situation?
Were you howling in combination with distress?
Rabbit 101?
When you say Fall, how early are you talking?
Mouse squeaks to begin with might change that then move to other sounds later in the stand.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted March 29, 2007 07:20 AM
Scott, I think we make a coyote out to be this complex, human like thinking creature. A call shy, educated or whatever you want to call it is just an animal that reacts to positive and negative happenings in a given territory.
A negative happening with a rabbit sound being why the coyote headed that way in the first place will not stop the coyote from responding to a rabbit scream, I think we forget that many a positive happening has happened from hearing that sound in it's world also.That being said repeated sounds and gunshots with escapes are making your odds of taking that coyote go up a bunch!
Weather extremes, pups, and mating season will make call shy, educated coyotes do things it normally would not.It's survival at some points.
The approach to and from the calling area, selection of stands,camo,and knowledge of the area you are hunting and who, when and where it has been called from put the hurt on those escapees.
I agree with you that calling to the same coyotes, with the same sound from a different location most times will bring them in, it may take longer and require a longer shot or more coaxing etc. it can be done, but I just choose a different distress I may use the same area to call from may not, sometimes it's all ya got! Work smarter not harder!!
I think the calling world has fallen into the trap of a secret sound, a new more expensive call,whether it be hand held or electronic will kill more coyotes. In the hands of some YES but for most the expectations fall short.If you are a 10 handicap golfer and buy Tigers clubs you won't make the tour the following week.You may get better but if you were expecting Tiger like numbers forget it!
Here is a scenario of events that happened about three weeks ago, to big drainages about 1 mile apart. I glass a carcass in the first drainage and a coyote is on it,it feeds goes over the hill out of sight. I set up off the carcass, howl he charges in dead. Next drainage coyote on the carcass sneak in, I can see him feeding and he doesn't see me, I howl he hits the jets and is out of there. Do I think he is educated to a howl? Heck no, I think he was a scavenger on a carcass that he knew belonged to some other coyote and I sounded like him and he wasn't waiting for the butt kickin.
I think coyotes that have established territories respond differently than coyotes that are still finding theirs. Many of these shy timid responces are from these coyotes.
As for the coyote being able to tell a hand held rabbit scream from an electronic actual rabbit scream, I don't believe the sound it self will make the difference but the volume will, I think the volume will, not always, trigger the responce without so much hesitation, I think it sounds closer to the coyote when the coyote is farther away and tends to make him come harder from longer distances. I think the volume increses your odds of him responding, I'm not talking about wide open right away but working into it. In this wide open country I think the volume of quality sounds is very important. A coyote is used to hearing a rabbit scream they all sound different but the volume of the rabbit scream when they kill one is about the same, pretty dam loud at the end of their nose and loud when your partner gets one! A rabbit that sounds like it's dying a half mile a way with normal volome and a rabbit dying a half mile away with the same volume a coyote hears when it's on the end of his nose triggers a more agressive responce in most cases. That's what I see anyway. That's just me trying to put coyote logic in my experiences in the field, may be way off but it works for me. I am not saying just simply crank it up from the same spot you missed one from and the coyote will knock ya over, not that easy! Just that the volume of a distess call may envoke a responce that normally would not.
Why do coyotes fear pickups and not tractors, combines? How do they figure out to hunt the pheasant sloughs after dark during the pheasant season and stay in them all day when it closes? Why do they run from us walking across a pasture and cows deer etc. never get a second glance. Follow escape routes almost the same everytime. The list goes on and on. It's a positive and negative ,pretty much vanilla and chocolate world to a coyote we mold them into a nightmare or a wet dream LOL
Wiley how'd I do on the funding LOL!!!!!!
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 29, 2007 08:27 AM
"Interesting DAA! I don't doubt your observations just wondering why you think this is the case in your situation?"
Hell, I don't know why... I've got a couple ideas, but not a lot of confidence in them. Mostly, I just chalk it up as "one of those things". If I HAD to make a guess out loud, I would say it's probably a combination of factors. Just judging by the number of adults vs. YoY my partner and I kill, I think that the areas I seek out to hunt tend to have a higher ratio of adults than more heavily hunted areas do. For the last several seasons, more than half our coyotes have been adults and it seems like we get a lot of larger (34 - 40 pound), older (2+, juding by teeth) coyotes. This leads me to believe that we are hunting relatively stable populations. Which would lead me to believe that there are a lot of resident old coyotes around. So, I think that maybe in late Sep. and early Oct., when the YoY are just setting out on their own for the first time, that they have a few things going on which might cause them to be more cautious approaching a distress cry than the adults. One being simply what I believe is the natural tendency of all coyotes to react cautiously to anything "new" or "unusual" in their environment. I'm not so sure that a five-six month old pup really has all that much experience or exposure to screaming rabbits? Maybe they do? Probably varies quite a bit, both by area and individual coyote? But, anyway, I don't think it's too far fetched to suppose that some YoY in late Sep. or early Oct. have little experience with screaming rabbits and will be naturually cautious approaching the sound. And I use pretty much straight screaming jack rabbit and nothing else that time of year. Another factor I suspect, and maybe this is the bigger factor, is all those adults in the area. Again, I really don't know, and this is nothing more than a guess, but I think that many of these YoY have probably just recently experienced getting kicked to the end of the chow line by older coyotes that they had never met before. I make this guess partly on how the older coyotes tend to respond at that time of year. They really come charging, head up, guard hairs erect. I can't help but wonder if the dynamics of change going on in coyoteville at that time of year don't have the old ones all ready to kick some YoY ass and take a meal from them when they hear that rabbit scream? While at the same time the YoY are worried about that happening?
But, really, like I said to begin with, I don't know...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted March 29, 2007 08:33 AM
Very good and informative post Randy..Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted March 29, 2007 08:54 AM
Dave, at first glance (based your results) I was thinking that you might be thinking opposite of what I was. After I realized a few differences it fits in perfectly….I think. However, I did have to take it further than I had before. I hadn’t thought about the positive reinforcement of the adults.
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