This is topic Whats your favorite shot?? Whats your average shot distance in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 10, 2007, 07:47 PM:
My favorite shot is facing me. Center of chest at the bottom of the "V".. Drops'em like a bad habbit.
My average shot is between 80 and 90 yards, it varies year to year.
sly
I guess I should tell the long and the short.
Longest one shot kill 664 lazered yards. Shortest shot 7 feet. I have 2 kills over 700 and 1 kill over 800 yards, none of the three were one shot kills though, thank God the 814 yard shot was on film.........LOL The coyotes on that ranch were so used to driveby's that every time I pulled into the pasture the coyotes were headed to the next ranch down the road. The rancher shut down recreational hunting the 2nd year I hunted it and I have outlived those coyotes. I have hunted that ranch for almost 2 decades, outlasted 3 ranch formen and the owner, his son and I are good friends and I'm teaching his son every trick I know.
[ March 10, 2007, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 10, 2007, 08:21 PM:
Dead on works but if I set up right it's broadside right in the middle of the rib cage. Their attention is focused on something besides me and it makes for an easy target.
My average shot is about 40-50 yards.
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 10, 2007, 08:24 PM:
I like the side shots too. But I take them as they come, as long as I know I can get them with one shot
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 10, 2007, 08:43 PM:
I like the frontal shots,bullet rarely exits,and the coyotes usually drop where they stand.Most of my shots range from 75-150 yards.Good hunting Chad
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on March 10, 2007, 09:15 PM:
Ditto to the frontal shot preference, doubly so for fur. Never hunted for numbers but sold some fur for a couple of years many moons ago when prices were sky high.
I started as a bow hunter so tend to set up for close shots even when I switched to a rifle. Hunted a lot of broken ground and timber. Shots averaged under 50 yards though had a lot in the 60-90 range, but also a lot inside 20 yards. Some long shots but those were usually stalked or shots of opportunity without caling.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 10, 2007, 09:56 PM:
I like the side shots, bigger target too. Most of my shots are probably 35 to 75 yards.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 10, 2007, 10:51 PM:
I like the coyote running away at a slight angle shots at 100-300 yards.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 11, 2007, 05:22 AM:
I like em to stand real still for me. The closer the better, because I don't like walking out to get em all that much. Average shot distance is about fifty yards or so.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 11, 2007, 05:37 AM:
'bout 30 yards broadside, trotting in with the shotgun bead on their nose.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 11, 2007, 06:35 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 11, 2007, 07:05 AM:
I'm not picky as long as it's a standing target with-in 100 yards I'm happy! On edit, my average is some where inside 100 yards!
[ March 11, 2007, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 11, 2007, 07:19 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 11, 2007, 07:22 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 11, 2007, 08:57 AM:
A perfect shot for me, would be to turn around and find the coyote standing broadside 10' behind the truck, 30 yards away.
I kill most coyotes in the 50-100 yard range. I've taken a couple in the 900+ yard ranges but am still looking to break 1000 yards.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2007, 09:10 AM:
Actually, an opinion based on practicality, over the years is that I try to limit my shots to around 500 yards, maximum. I think that it gets very hard to connect past half that distance, especially with alert animals...not bedded down.
Besides the difficulty of an accurate hit, recovery is much more difficult at extreme ranges and the number of animals lost/not found is doubled or tripled. That is based without snow on the ground, which is the case in most places I hunt.
Thirdly, it wastes a lot of time to be banging away at long range. Okay for grins, but I really don't like to do it. It's a general personal policy that has evolved from experience.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 11, 2007, 12:01 PM:
My area is somewhat like where,Krusty K lives,its thick and most places i call,the shots are close.I can't recall one shot over 60 yards on a coyote.Closest shot was about 25'or less.I guess "shot placement" would depend on which gun i carried,shotgun/rifle.With the shotgun,i want a side lung/heart shot,and with the rifle,frontal or side,it makes little difference at close range.For the last few years,i prefer to sit back and take it all in,and let the other guy do the shooting.
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 11, 2007, 12:08 PM:
I totaly agree, 99.9% of my shots are under 400 yards. Of that 90% are under 300. I'm not an advacut of ultra long shooting of coyotes. I agree that for the most part shot should be kept in a reasonable effective range.
The shots I mentioned were made because them few coyotes were call wise and roage ranch coyotes that I'm contracted to remove. Sometimes I have to reach out there to do my job.
I wasn't braging, just stating fact. If you think about it, In my lifetime I have killed someware around 3000 coyotes and only 3 very lucky shots made at over 700 yards. Its a small percentage of the total and the rare ocation not the norm.
I also shoot hundreds if not thousands of shots at rodent sized critters at point blank to 1000 yards annualy that helps make those long shots possable. I still would rather shoot them where I can see the look on their face.
sly
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 11, 2007, 01:20 PM:
Sly,lord willing and i live long enough,i would love to fly out and hunt with you some day. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 11, 2007, 01:39 PM:
By far I prefer the frontal facing shot. Often, when things are working right, I'll squeak at a broadside coyote to get him facing me before I shoot. And on longer range shots, I prefer the facing shot over broadside even more.
My average distance... With camera on stand, about 100 yards. Without camera, about 60 yards. I don't let them get any closer than that if I can help it.
- DAA
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 11, 2007, 01:44 PM:
I don't advocate most guys shooting beyond 300 yards at a coyote unless it is a shot they have practiced many times on paper, and even then, never with a factory rifle.
A few years ago, I had a custom rifle built specifically for Long range coyote hunting. I shot the barrel out last Spring and had it rechambered and recrowned. I now take it to 1,000 yard BR Matches.
Long range hunting can be a lot of fun, but it tales a hell of a lot of practice to develop the skill level needed to actually go hunting.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on March 11, 2007, 02:09 PM:
Standing still
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 11, 2007, 03:45 PM:
I agree with Tim.
I try to limit my long range shooting to 300 yards or maybe alittle more on called coyotes.To many variables to be consistant much past that especially on coyotes.
As far as call-wise coyotes go,a change in a few calling tactics will alot of times bring those call shy coyotes in alittle closer so you don't have to take those lower percentenge shots out past 350 yards.Not all the time but alot of the time.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 11, 2007, 05:16 PM:
quote:
As far as call-wise coyotes go,a change in a few calling tactics will alot of times bring those call shy coyotes in alittle closer so you don't have to take those lower percentenge shots out past 350 yards.Not all the time but alot of the time.
Hey Sly, ya might learn soemthing here yet! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 11, 2007, 08:59 PM:
I like them facing me as well. It tends to kep the fur intact more often than not. My average shot would be about 60 yards calling. About 300 hundred on my drive-by's. Closest kill was 4 yards, longest was just under 500.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on March 11, 2007, 09:07 PM:
My favorite shot is Old Charter over Ice. Tequila makes my head hurt
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 11, 2007, 09:39 PM:
TRnCO,.......LOL
"Hey Sly, ya might learn soemthing here yet!
I don't know, there are some who think I'm a dumbass and that I haven't any hunting skills.. I guess I'm just a work in progress..
I sure hope to get as good as you all someday
CHAD: "As far as call-wise coyotes go,a change in a few calling tactics will alot of times bring those call shy coyotes in alittle closer so you don't have to take those lower percentenge shots out past 350 yards.Not all the time but alot of the time."
Chad, short of setting steel or snairs, I have switched up , fliped over and invented new ways of calling these ranch coyotes. I have brought in other good callers and watched them fall on their faces also. Sometimes all you can do is all yopu can do.
To clairify myself again, I don't make a habbit out of shooting coyotes out past 450. There are exceptions and I shoot a tremendous amount at long range rodents.If I can kill a Bleddings ground squirrel at 500+ I'm quite sure I can handle a coyote out to the same distance. Its up to the trigger man as to weather or not to place a bad shot on a moving target. I want them sitting down facing me, I down't and for the most part will not shoot at a running coyote past 200.
As my job is to rid these ranches of coyotes, sometimes it requires windage and elevation, thinking outside of the box and doing something that is totaly opposite of what everyone else is doing.
Do you realy think, for one min. that I would just keep doin the same thing over and over again......LOL...... each time expecting a different result......come on now, please don't insult my expieriance or my ability. I average 109 coyotes a year and have for some time now. These are called coyotes, I'm not counting drive by's, traped or snaired coyotes. Just called coyotes on ground I have hunted for many years, " with some exceptions". I know my ground and the coyotes that live and die there, they also know me, sometimes I have to do things they don't expect from me in order to get it done. There always seems to be that one that gives me fits. (prolly one I missed from last year) and yes I do miss a few.
Once in a while I have to take a shot that I don't like to have to, just because its the only other choice left. I do my damnedest to be proficant with my long gun, so that when this happens, I can close the deal. If he's 500 yard smart today, tomorrow he's 600 yards smart and so on.
sly
[ March 11, 2007, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 12, 2007, 06:02 AM:
There are exceptions to almost everthing of course, but in general if a coyote don't come in to 200 yards or less, it wasn't really called. I also think that for most people, those shots taken out past 200 yards are hail Mary or spray and pray deals.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 12, 2007, 08:57 AM:
as far as a favorite presentation. At an undetermined distance, the facing shot is hard to beat. You have a lot more vertical to drop the shot in. Good at night, in fact, it is the most common so you best get used to it.
However, I like a sideways lung shot, if given a choice. Seems more lethal, has a bit more lateral freedom than the full frontal, if you have a strong wind.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 12, 2007, 12:46 PM:
My favorite shot is when the bullet goes "THUMP" and the critter falls over dead
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 12, 2007, 04:00 PM:
I should know better than to even ask, but here goes... 2dogs, why don't you own a range finder if you are shooting at 500 yard plus coyotes?? I guess I find it odd that you are using terraserver or your own wild-assed guess to judge long yardage when a LRF would be light years ahead.
Frontal shots for me, and 75-150 yards most of the time.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 12, 2007, 04:44 PM:
Beggers can't be choosers but this once I'll choose frontal.
75 and in for the most part.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 12, 2007, 05:53 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 12, 2007, 06:02 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 12, 2007, 06:21 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 12, 2007, 06:50 PM:
I'd say 856 yards ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 12, 2007, 07:14 PM:
2dogs , I know hunting Iowa you can get close with fences and roads and other objects to gauge from, but out west it is tough to know a coyote at 450 or 525 or 600. A range finder is a very useful tool and one I can't do without. Add in 10 mph crosswind and then you have both vertical and horizonal obsticles to over come for sure.
Leupold makes a bino/range finder combo for under 500, a buddy seems to like it just fine for calling. Quick and easy. I wish I had 2 in 1 but a range finder has really helped out with misses and mis judgement of range. Add in a BDC and life gets more exact and easier for those 400+ yrd shots.
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 12, 2007, 08:03 PM:
guys, I use a range finder and My pard Ronnie turned me on to a watch with a balistics program in the watch. Put in the basic info and when in the field put distance and wind, hit the button and it tells you how many up, how many left or right........ I like this thing... no more palm pilot for me...
Shooting VLD is not as hard as one thinks but it takes lots of practice. Even then I won't make shots at animals with anything over a 10 mph wind. Too many things can go wrong.
sly
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 13, 2007, 03:12 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 13, 2007, 04:56 AM:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a long range estimate, and a wild assed guess?
Is one more accurate than the other?
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 13, 2007, 05:09 AM:
I like them broadside standing still at 400 yds on down to 200 hundred. My rifle is point blank out to 390 yds, If I have time to range find and condition are right I am very comfortable at 440 over shooting sticks.Have seen so many go down with that combination out of my 6/284 that I know it works.I find the advantage shifts to the coyote as he gets in closer than a hundred as I begin to lose my cool. At the longer ranges I can remain more collected. I also practice at lot at coyote targets at 400 yds.
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on March 13, 2007, 06:03 AM:
Old Charter was definitely some smooth stuff Randy.
I did the best with #4 and T-buck, a few BB's
<10 yards - 4
10-19 yds - 17
20-29 yds - 35
30-39 yds - 21
40-49 yds - 11
50-59 yds - 2
60-69 yds - 0
70 yards exactly - 1
Aim at the nose.
And another 32 with rifles between 55 and 215 yards.
Was I the only guy who kept a log this season?
[ March 13, 2007, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 13, 2007, 06:08 AM:
6mm284,
If you are holding dead on at 390 yards, you are likely shooting right over their back at 100 yards. No wonder your confidence level goes down.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on March 13, 2007, 06:34 AM:
So 2dogs, you misjudge the yardage of a far yonder coyote by 50-75 yards, and then procede to shoot and miss, but you can calculate the height of a "balled up coyote" within an inch at the same distance???
Simply fricken amazing...
[ March 13, 2007, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 13, 2007, 06:39 AM:
Nahuatl: Was I the only guy who kept a log this season?
............LOL..........ROF..........That is some funny stuff......SROF....... I can't stop.....LOL
Are you kidding? in this welth of ADC, WS, tournement hunters and yes men..... You have to be kidding, right?
Rich: I also think that for most people, those shots taken out past 200 yards are hail Mary or spray and pray deals.
This is the 1 main reason I shoot a single shot rifle, so I don't get caught up in that spray and pray deal...
I'm still guilty of the ocational Hail Mary.. Just can't help myself
sly
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 13, 2007, 06:51 AM:
quote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a long range estimate, and a wild assed guess?
Is one more accurate than the other?
Tim, near as I can tell & I`m fairly good at making wild assed guesses is that the only difference is that it takes a lot less time to make a guess than it does an estimate, same accuracy, less time. Of course you of all people know the proper way to approach long range shooting, most of us should keep the long range stories for when everyone is & drunk sitting around a campfire. I remember reading some of your posts someplace or other about shooting some coyotes at long range, I found myself intrigued by your equipment & ability to use it.
As far as my favorite shot........frontal for distance.........broadside for close up
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 13, 2007, 07:43 AM:
Nahuatl: I keep two logs, one log is for hunting and calling and the other is for shooting..
For figureing out the range to target, i use a Bushnell range finder,powerline poles and fence posts. Where i live i have one mile square sections mostly, if my range finder can't pick up a reflective surface what i do is park the truck straight in-line with coyote and then laser the distance to the corner stop sign. I will then go to other side of section and do the same. I then figure out my plan of attack and use the terrian to get me were i want to be...Once in position i will try to get a laser reading off of the target, or nearbye snow drift or bounce it off the side of truck. If the coyote is balled up i will take my squeaker and make a few squeaks or just bark with my voice to get the coyote to lift his head or stand up. I end up missing a few and its not the guns fault, just human error, but its fun....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2007, 08:06 AM:
A rangefinder is fine for rockchucks, but a coyote won't stand still for it. We need to define the situation a bit. Call your coyotes in to 100 yards and kill the first one. Now, the second, or third might be weaving in and out of sage or creasote and he is at 483 "paces over uneven ground" before he pauses for a look back.
This is where instinctual shooting comes in handy, and familiarity with your rifle. At some point in your career, you might decide that you require a flatter shooting cartridge which will make your, on the spot "wild ass guesses" less critical. The next plateau is when you are hitting your animals, but runing down cripples, and start looking at terminally effective long range bullets.
This is mainly why I don't like to guess at ranges or drop numbers beyond 500. I learned my lesson at night, years ago. I wasted so much time looking for animals with a flashlight that had moved after the shot. I really like to have them drop in their tracks so I can walk out and drag them back without wandering all over hither and yon. Of course, astute readers will understand that this effectively leaves out the sub calibers. Everybody but Buker.
Lord, I apologize for that, and be with the pigmy's....
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 13, 2007, 08:31 AM:
17 Rem. w/30 gr. at 3900 f.p.s
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (moa)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3917.9 3.604 1022.3 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 1.0 0.9 3413.4 3.140 776.0 0.082 14.4 13.8
200 -1.5 -0.7 4.1 2.0 2965.5 2.728 585.7 0.176 31.1 14.8
300 -7.0 -2.2 9.8 3.1 2561.6 2.357 437.0 0.285 50.2 16.0
400 -17.8 -4.3 18.6 4.4 2192.6 2.017 320.2 0.412 72.5 17.3
500 -36.0 -6.9 31.3 6.0 1855.5 1.707 229.3 0.561 98.7 18.8 22-250 ackley w/52 gr. A-Max 3900 fps
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (moa)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3916.8 3.603 1771.0 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.9 0.9 3441.3 3.166 1367.1 0.082 14.4 13.7
200 -1.5 -0.7 3.8 1.8 3016.5 2.775 1050.4 0.175 30.8 14.7
300 -6.7 -2.1 9.1 2.9 2631.5 2.421 799.5 0.281 49.5 15.8
400 -17.1 -4.1 17.2 4.1 2278.6 2.096 599.4 0.404 71.1 17.0
500 -34.2 -6.5 28.7 5.5 1953.7 1.797 440.7 0.546 96.1 18.4
Here is the Ballistics for the two cartridges i use for coyotes, 17 rem and a 22-250 ackley with a 10 m.p.h. wind.. Out to 500 yards there is'nt a whole lot of difference between the two.
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 13, 2007, 08:58 AM:
LB,
Did you forget me?? Thats all I shoot is sub calibers. Tac20 40grn @ 4000fps,.204 39grn @ just under 4000fps, 20 ackley hornet 30grn @ 3400fps, 17 ackley hornet 27grn @ 3550fps and 5mm rimfire magnum 38grn @ 2520fps.
Out to 500 I'll put that 20Tac up against 90% of the larger calibers for flatness and coyote stopping terminal velosity. BTW I'm serious about you comming to hunt Idaho, just say the word, I dare ya.........LOL
sly
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2007, 09:37 AM:
TA, the problem here is that your comparisons involve a 30 grain seventeen caliber bullet and a much too light 52 grain 224 bullet. For instance, I use a 65 grain bullet in my 22-250 Ackley and there IS a whole lot of difference@3925fps. Check them numbers, if you get a chance.
Good hunting. LB
edit: <sigh> Sly, you haven't learned anything, have you? Oh well, keep on keeping on.
[ March 13, 2007, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 13, 2007, 12:16 PM:
Leonard: I ran youre load into the ballistic's computar. Very impressive compared to mine.Is this bullet made by Sierra ?
Here is the big question: How does it perform as far as fur damage goes.. One hole going in and none out or does it go through and through. Big holes or little holes? How is it on fur at 100 yds and farther???
The reason i ask is if it is'nt too hard on the fur i would seriously think about switching over to it.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 13, 2007, 12:26 PM:
Sly:Chad, short of setting steel or snairs, I have switched up , fliped over and invented new ways of calling these ranch coyotes. I have brought in other good callers and watched them fall on their faces also. Sometimes all you can do is all yopu can do.
You don't have to tell me about call wise coyotes.I live in Utah remember.lol Alot of the areas I call are very pressured not only by lots and lots of recreational callers,but government trappers including planes.I can relate with coyotes that are very tough to call.Doesn't mean you have to resort to "Quigley Down Under" Tactics.lol Like I said you need to try a few tricks here and there and you can sometimes pull those tough ones in for a higher percentage shot.Again not always but some of the time.Probably just as or more productively as a 500+ yard shot is.
Sly:The rancher shut down recreational hunting the 2nd year I hunted it and I have outlived those coyotes. I have hunted that ranch for almost 2 decades,
Sly:The shots I mentioned were made because them few coyotes were call wise and roage ranch coyotes that I'm contracted to remove. Sometimes I have to reach out there to do my job.
Sly:As my job is to rid these ranches of coyotes, sometimes it requires windage and elevation, thinking outside of the box and doing something that is totaly opposite of what everyone else is doing.
With no recreational callers on the ranch,and you being contracted to kill coyotes for that ranch,who,other than you is educating these coyotes?And why is it necessary to do the opposite of everyone else if you're the only one calling on the Ranch you're contracted to kill coyotes for.And you shouldn't have to take those long Ass shots,you bring those Ranch coyotes in on a rope with just an "Estrus Chirp" remember.LOL
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 13, 2007, 01:39 PM:
slydog: could I get your BC,FPS and bullet weight on your 20 tac? I would like to compair it to a 25/06 on a bal program out to 600 yrds for drop,fps,wind drift and energy retained at these distances?
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 13, 2007, 01:59 PM:
20 cal:
Range
yds Path
in ComeUp
clicks Velocity
fps Energy
ft/lbs Momentum
lb ft/s ToF
sec Windage
in Windage
clicks Optimal
Game Wgt
Muzzle -1.5 Infinity 4000 1421 22.86 0.000 0.0 NaN 154
25 -0.5 8 3861 1324 22.06 0.019 0.1 1 138
50 0.3 -2 3727 1233 21.29 0.039 0.2 2 124
75 0.9 -5 3596 1149 20.55 0.059 0.6 3 112
100 1.4 -5 3470 1069 19.83 0.081 1.0 4 100
125 1.7 -5 3347 995 19.12 0.103 1.6 5 90
150 1.8 -5 3227 925 18.44 0.126 2.3 6 81
175 1.7 -4 3111 859 17.78 0.149 3.2 7 72
200 1.4 -3 2997 798 17.13 0.174 4.2 8 65
225 0.8 -1 2887 740 16.50 0.199 5.4 9 58
250 0.0 0 2779 686 15.88 0.226 6.7 10 51
275 -1.1 2 2674 635 15.28 0.253 8.3 11 46
300 -2.5 3 2571 587 14.69 0.282 10.0 13 41
325 -4.3 5 2471 542 14.12 0.312 12.0 14 36
350 -6.4 7 2373 500 13.56 0.343 14.1 15 32
375 -8.9 9 2278 461 13.02 0.375 16.5 17 28
400 -11.8 11 2185 424 12.48 0.409 19.1 18 25
425 -15.1 14 2094 389 11.96 0.444 22.0 20 22
450 -19.0 16 2004 357 11.45 0.480 25.1 21 19
475 -23.4 19 1918 327 10.96 0.519 28.6 23 17
500 -28.4 22 1833 298 10.48 0.559 32.3 25 15
525 -34.0 25 1752 272 10.01 0.601 36.4 26 13
550 -40.3 28 1673 248 9.56 0.645 40.8 28 11
575 -47.5 32 1596 226 9.12 0.690 45.6 30 10
600 -55.4 35 1523 206 8.70 0.739 50.7 32 8
25 cal
Max Point blank range is 300 yds when zeroed at 255 yds.
Range
yds Path
in ComeUp
clicks Velocity
fps Energy
ft/lbs Momentum
lb ft/s ToF
sec Windage
in Windage
clicks Optimal
Game Wgt
Muzzle -1.5 Infinity 3060 2391 50.27 0.000 0.0 NaN 568
25 -0.2 2 3006 2307 49.38 0.025 0.0 1 539
50 1.0 -7 2952 2225 48.49 0.050 0.2 1 510
75 1.8 -9 2899 2145 47.62 0.076 0.4 2 483
100 2.4 -9 2846 2068 46.76 0.102 0.6 2 457
125 2.7 -8 2794 1994 45.91 0.128 1.0 3 433
150 2.8 -7 2743 1921 45.06 0.155 1.5 4 409
175 2.6 -6 2692 1851 44.23 0.183 2.0 4 387
200 2.0 -4 2642 1783 43.41 0.211 2.7 5 366
225 1.2 -2 2593 1717 42.60 0.240 3.4 6 346
250 0.0 0 2544 1653 41.80 0.269 4.2 6 327
275 -1.5 2 2496 1591 41.00 0.299 5.1 7 308
300 -3.4 4 2448 1530 40.22 0.329 6.2 8 291
325 -5.6 7 2401 1472 39.45 0.360 7.3 9 275
350 -8.2 9 2355 1416 38.68 0.392 8.5 9 259
375 -11.2 11 2309 1361 37.93 0.424 9.9 10 244
400 -14.6 14 2263 1308 37.18 0.457 11.3 11 230
425 -18.4 17 2218 1256 36.44 0.490 12.9 12 217
450 -22.6 19 2174 1206 35.71 0.524 14.6 12 204
475 -27.4 22 2130 1158 34.99 0.559 16.4 13 192
500 -32.6 25 2086 1111 34.27 0.595 18.4 14 180
525 -38.3 28 2043 1065 33.56 0.631 20.5 15 169
550 -44.5 31 2000 1021 32.86 0.668 22.7 16 159
575 -51.2 34 1958 979 32.17 0.706 25.1 17 149
600 -58.6 37 1916 938 31.48 0.745 27.6 18 140
If you look at recommended game wgt at 600 yrds the 20 has 8lbs and the 25 has 140 lbs ft lbs of energy is 938 for the 25 and 206 for the 20 cal.
Now look at bullet drop the fast 20 has 55.4" at 600yrds and the heavy 25 has 58.6" a differance of 3.2" is all with 4x's the remaining energy over the 20 cal.
Now look at wind drift the 25 drifts 27.6" at 600 and the 20 drifts 50.7" at 600 the distance from 500 to 600 is a whopping 18.4"!!!!
The 25 cal differance is 9.2" 500-600.
Then time in flight distance really shows the benefit of a higher BC bullet that can retain more energy time in flight to 600 yrds. The 20 cal leaving the barrel at 4,000 fps with a small 40 gr bullet gets to 600 yrds in .739 seconds and the 115 gr 25 caliber bullet gets there in .745 so the differance is a whopping .006 of a second!
I'll stick with the 22-250 and 25/06 for terminal performance!
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 13, 2007, 02:49 PM:
coyote whacker:I'll stick with the 22-250 and 25/06 for terminal performance!
Where I will totally agree with your observations on comparing the 25-06 to the 20 cal.I don't agree with the .22-250 being a better choice.
Compare the Sierra 55 grain SBT which I believe to be an excellent coyote bullet(B.C of .249)and a muzzle velocity of 3600 fps in .22-250 to the Hornady 45 grain SP Which is also an excellent coyote bullet(B.C of .245) and a muzzle velocity of 3625 fps in a .204 ruger.
You will see they are Damn close in comparison.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 13, 2007, 03:14 PM:
your right those to are very close! I like 52 gr A max bullets in the 22-250 they are a good bullet as well. Long range shooting though I would still prefer the added benfits of my 06.
Plus it can be used on coyotes,deer and goats and I know of a guy that has taken 2 elk and a moose with 120 gr partitions with his 06. They now offer up to 140 gr bullets in the 06 not cheap and I would think one would need a rifle with 1:9 twist.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2007, 03:46 PM:
Actually, as some of you may recall, my "go to" rifles are chambered in 25'06 Ackley and 22-250 Ackley. I have been using a 96.5 grain Starke and the 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in 25'06AI.
TA, I have been using a 65 grain Starke HP, but you can get a 64 grain HP from Berger, they may even make it in the MEF? Depends on your twist but if you have a 1 in 12", that should be fine.
Good hunting. LB
edit: performance on coyotes (65) side lung shot, always exits, with a very small, mostly nickle diameter(up to) a quarter size. Might blow out the back on frontal, depending on angle? acceptable.
[ March 13, 2007, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 13, 2007, 05:43 PM:
Leonard, what velocities are you getting with your 22-250 ackley and the 65gr HP?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2007, 05:59 PM:
3925, CrossJ.
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on March 13, 2007, 08:57 PM:
Tim, very good question. For what it's worth, my wild assed guesses are slightly more accurate than my long range estimations. However, I have no data to substantiate this claim.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 14, 2007, 04:28 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 14, 2007, 05:18 AM:
Rich, good perspective on coyotes are not called unless they get closer than 200 yds. also do you suppose it would help on those real close coyotes to turn the gun upside down before I shoot??? I do not blame any misses on anything but me, the rifle has to shoot high at 100 to stay point blank at the longer ranges, but not high enough to cause a miss.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 14, 2007, 06:20 AM:
6mm284,
I have hard enough time hitting the buggers with my rifle right side up, but then I ain't as good as you. Let me ask you something if you can get serious for a second. If you hold your rifle upside down like that, do you have trouble shooting over the top of coyotes that are only ten feet away?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 14, 2007, 06:31 AM:
coyote whacker,
Would you run this one through your ballistics program just for giggles? 85 grain 6mm Speer boat tail spitzer with B.C. of .404. Velocity of 3300 fps.
Thanks,
Rich
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 14, 2007, 10:23 AM:
Here you go Rich:
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (moa)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3308.8 3.044 2066.0 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.7 0.6 3052.1 2.808 1757.9 0.094 16.6 15.9
200 -2.2 -1.1 2.7 1.3 2810.6 2.586 1490.7 0.197 34.6 16.5
300 -8.9 -2.8 6.4 2.0 2582.3 2.376 1258.3 0.308 54.2 17.3
400 -20.8 -5.0 11.8 2.8 2365.5 2.176 1055.9 0.430 75.6 18.1
500 -38.9 -7.4 19.2 3.7 2159.3 1.986 879.9 0.562 99.0 18.9
Just for comparison my 17 rem and the 22-250 ackley shoot flatter than youre 6mm 85 gr. But the 85 gr. bucks the wind much better than the 17 and 22-250 ackley.
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 14, 2007, 11:29 AM:
OK Scott JR,
CHAD: With no recreational callers on the ranch,and you being contracted to kill coyotes for that ranch,who,other than you is educating these coyotes?And why is it necessary to do the opposite of everyone else if you're the only one calling on the Ranch you're contracted to kill coyotes for.And you shouldn't have to take those long Ass shots,you bring those Ranch coyotes in on a rope with just an "Estrus Chirp" remember.LOL
As you may or may not already know, ranchers and their hands shoot at damn near every coyote they see, for 1, next the encroaching coyotes from outside the ranch boundrys are the ones that are being educated and migrate into the ranch as I remove the local coyotes. Do I need to explain that to you also? I do bring in many of the coyotes to the chirp but not every situation will that work and I NEVER SAID IT WAS A ONE STOP SHOP FOR KILLING EVERY DAMN COYOTE, Do we understand each other now??? or do I have to spend all damn day doing the cut and past war to show you what you should already know.
If you hold the keys to workin these ranch coyotes that I have to snipe, how about you come and give me a lesson Untill then I'll do things my way and remember my way works also
sly
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 14, 2007, 12:25 PM:
Chad, you better quit ragging on Sly! Looks like you are really getting under his skin?
Sly, I (for one) buy your explain, perfectly logical, no contradictions.
Now, Sly. That's not nice to call him Scott Junior. "Scott Lite" sounds better.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 14, 2007, 12:52 PM:
"Now, Sly. That's not nice to call him Scott Junior. "Scott Lite" sounds better."
-------------------------
ROFLMAO!!!!! Does Scott have a twin?
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 14, 2007, 01:39 PM:
Alot of adult coyotes will be in the same areas unless it offers a chance to move up the habitat ladder of life! Alot of imigration is going to be younger coyotes, and the marginal habitat will have those younger coyotes fill in these areas. Good habitat will be defended buy resident coyotes, those alot of the times being the older coyotes. Those that have been around the block a time or two.
What can change this are many factors large grass fires, prey base crash in a given area, changing of the habitat and more. Severe drought limiting water and cover are others.
By taking out adult pairs in the summer time you open up the habitat for the fall dispersion of younger/less educated coyotes to fill in.
I would doubt alot of the fill in; is by wised up paranoid coyotes but those with less age and experiance than the ones that get removed from the area in the first place.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 14, 2007, 05:36 PM:
Ok then LB,Does that give me at least Half assed Rockstar status. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
LOL
Sly:As you may or may not already know, ranchers and their hands shoot at damn near every coyote they see,
How does that make a coyote "callwise".I'm sure they are a little skitish or maybe alot skitish when they see a truck or see a rancher out in the open,cause everytime they do they get shot at.But unless they(Ranchers) are calling and missing coyotes how are the Ranchers making them "callwise"?
Sly:next the encroaching coyotes from outside the ranch boundrys are the ones that are being educated and migrate into the ranch as I remove the local coyotes. Do I need to explain that to you also?
No..
Sly: I know my ground and the coyotes that live and die there, they also know me, sometimes I have to do things they don't expect from me in order to get it done. There always seems to be that one that gives me fits.
But it sounds like it's some of those local Ranch coyotes that are the tough ones..LOL
Sly:Do we understand each other now???
Perfectly....
Sly:If you hold the keys to workin these ranch coyotes that I have to snipe, how about you come and give me a lesson Untill then I'll do things my way and remember my way works also
Nah, sounds like you got it all figured out.
Good Hunting Chad
[ March 14, 2007, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 14, 2007, 06:31 PM:
coyote whacker,i don't agree with your post.Do you think coyotes on the neighbors ranch are all young and not shot at? I have my doupts about that.What your making it sound like,the coyotes are only being called and shot at on one ranch.Not picking on you,but that makes no sense to me.
Rich,i notice that,Leonard has developed a good sense of humor..LOL
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 14, 2007, 06:39 PM:
When i first started calling in the Dakotas a rancher gave me some advice. He said if i see a coyote close to the road and if i can get him dead in my sites, i should shoot him. He also stated that if i don't have the shot i should let the coyote go instead of flinging lead and educateing him to vehicles comeing down the road.
By doing this i learned two things: one the coyote will be there again the next day or so and offer me the same chance to get a good shot off.
The second thing i learned was if i passed on the coyote and came back a hour or two i could set up in pasture and call him in close and get him... In other parts of the area i hunt thats not the case, some of the ranchers shoot at them anyway sending lead flying and just educateing the coyote to pick-up trucks. When going through these areas and i see a coyote run off when he see's the truck, i keep going and come back later and do the same, make a stand and bang. So from what i have seen i don't think shooting from the road makes them any harder to call in as long as youre not near the truck when calling....
I don't live in the area i call so from trip to trip i just drive around and locate coyotes moveing about freely and check for other signs of coyotes. I also found that alot of coyotes are not bedded to far from the road, some are 100 yards or so and out to a half mile away..
[ March 14, 2007, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 15, 2007, 04:33 AM:
Melvin I should have clarified more. I don't know the size of the area where talking about, that plays into it. I also don't know if this is being called all year long. Sly stated little recreational calling takes place.
If an area is hunted and the pairs taken out in the summer, then by fall/ early winter in alot of cases your fill in is going to be younger coyotes, as the adults are the ones that will defend territory more aggressively. Exspecialy really good habitat. If your taking out the adults around sheep or problem matic calving operations in March,April then a good majority of any movement after that point is going to be unbred and younger coyotes,ALL No but a good majority. Those numbers are related to coyote densities. As by that time of the year your left with less young of the year coyotes in the area.Adult coyotes if it offers all they need won't be the ones moving out, the majority will be younger age class coyotes.
This isn't 100%. Some areas are save havens for older coyotes, ****** reservations and large tracts where little can or does take place.
You still get a decent % of young coyotes that make it through the winter and those coyotes disperse to find their own territory. Unless disease factors into killing off large numbers of young coyotes in a given year.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 15, 2007, 08:00 AM:
CoyoteWhacker, I read your post and I didn't think it needed any clarification.
Older coyotes or groups will have the pick of the litter, so to speak, when it comes to good habitat. When the YOY disperse they will have to deal with the scraps unless they can move into another group and make do. Most nomadic coyotes soon die if they cannot find suitable habitat and most YOY will not have great habitat unless the densities are low or the area has been shot out.
DIRECT CALLING PRESSURE is the biggest enemy to success, for the most part, unless you just suck. Drive by's and sniping have nothing to do with HARD TO CALL coyotes. If they have anything in common it would have to do with sounds associated with vehicles and there are ways around that. Too much human activity in any form can alter their movements and times of day they move but being gun shy or vehicle shy is not the same as call shy. You know that!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 15, 2007, 09:08 AM:
Smithers: "DIRECT CALLING PRESSURE is the biggest enemy to success, for the most part, unless you just suck. Drive by's and sniping have nothing to do with HARD TO CALL coyotes."
--------------------------------------------
I have pretty much given up on trying to convince people that human pressure of ANY sort is going to cause coyotes to be more wary. Coyotes that are constantly spooked by ignorant people, are coyotes that are going to be harder to call. Period.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 15, 2007, 09:20 AM:
Melvin: "Rich,i notice that,Leonard has developed a good sense of humor..LOL"
---------------------
Yes Melvin, but he is still from Queerafornia. Did I spell that right?
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 15, 2007, 10:05 AM:
coyote whacker,from my experince,here in pa,coyotes get the same or more pressure from calling,in ALL AREAS of the state.I have noticed through the years,after taking out the local coyotes,many times the void is filled with smarter,call shy,coyotes.I have very little experience with western coyotes and don't know how much pressure they get compared to here.I believe what your saying to a point,depending on the area.I can't see where dumb coyotes are always filling a void.
smithers,coyote whacker clarified that for me from his expeience and i appreciate his responce.
As far as your post,its like a re-run of Sanford and Son...LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2007, 11:48 AM:
quote:
I have pretty much given up on trying to convince people that human pressure of ANY sort is going to cause coyotes to be more wary. Coyotes that are constantly spooked by ignorant people, are coyotes that are going to be harder to call. Period.....so says Rich Cronk
Yeah, gotta go along with that little pearl of wisdom.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 15, 2007, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on March 15, 2007, 01:25 PM:
I am from PA so any shot is a good one
My average shot in PA is around 125 yard ,( for me anyway) I like to hunt lots off high lines or as we call them power lines and i try and bust them as soon as they show themselves. but out west or up north would be more in the line of under 70 yards on average. my closes shot would have to been a large male in South Texas when i was calling out of a high box blind . walk right under the blind so the shot was about 12 feet.
my farthest shot would take place in British Colombia on a large male shot at 333 yard that was ranged after the shot.
he was a target of opportunity . shot off a dead cow as i drove back into the ranch.
George
Added after reading the hole thread
ok i just read the intier thread ,
with that said, I will explain my long range coyote that i shot at over 300 yard.
I was wolf and lion hunting at the time with my 700 in 7mm with a bullet that was suggested by a well known bullet guy. being i mostly shoot a bow and don't know a lot about rifles but to shoot them strait.
his suggestion was Federals 150 grain ballistic tip sighted at 3 3/4 '' at 100.
witch would hit the kill zone out to 375.
i sight the gun in and check it at 40 feet and was still hitting the bull eye .
first shot on game was the coyote and it work out just like I was told it would.
I love coyotes up close, but i take the shot at any range if i think he is a close as he is going to get. if its a safe shot.
[ March 15, 2007, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 15, 2007, 01:56 PM:
I agree with Rich's take of coyotes in the midwest, put anything new in their environment and the wariness to all things goes way up and calling becomes less successful...
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 15, 2007, 02:26 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 15, 2007, 02:36 PM:
George,it's been well over 40 years since i been in philadelphia.The whole city smelt like one big dead fish!One morning,i walked into a resteraunt and orderd,toast,eggs and bacon,the stink in the air was in the resteruant!I looked on my plate and the two'sunny side up' eggs reminded me of an old dead flounder,looking up at me.With all that smell,in the air,i couldn't eat.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2007, 03:10 PM:
I know what you mean, Melvin. Juarez is the same way, only it smells like a bean fart. Don't go there.
They talk a little funny in Philadelphia, don't they? (just kidding)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 15, 2007, 03:19 PM:
2dogs:These call shy coyotes, IMO. Are associating a "vehicle" [car or truck], with danger.
Again why do you think they are "call shy"?I can see them being leary of vehicles and the road.But why would they be afraid of a rabbit in distress. What if you park a mile or so down the road,and come in from a different direction than the road and made your stand.That way they don't see or hear your vehicle and the source of the sound isn't coming from the road(danger).Hell coyotes still got to eat and I'm sure they will still defend there territory from other coyotes.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on March 15, 2007, 03:45 PM:
Yo, Melvin
I can remember the days when i had to go though bridesburg area when it smelt like just what you said the city did when you were here,
And back in them days the river witch is only 2 blocks from my home was so thick with pollution look as if you could walk across it.
Them days are long gone my friend, the slaughter houses around bridesburg are gone and the EPA is on top of the of the big chemical company in that area and the fowl smell is no long there.
As for the Delaware river ( the big D) The US's largest deep water port , I would have to say it's now a would class striper fishery , If not the best striper fishing in the US.
last but not least i been to many citys in the US and Philly has to be right up there with the prettiest .
It should be because it's also in the prettiest state.
God blest Pennsylvania
[ March 15, 2007, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 15, 2007, 04:00 PM:
Chad,
You are talking generals here, I'm talking a ranch that has hunting presure all around it and its over 9000 acres with almost no place to hide a truck and what few places there are you have to drive by the coyotes best cover to get to a place to make a stand. This is AGAIN country I have hunted for more that 15 years and your fixall answers are not things that you alone have thought, they just don't apply to hunting this ranch. You make good points, but you are telling the choir how to sing????????? There are coyotes on this ranch that for whatever reason, won't respond to calling and when they see my truck or anyother for that matter are on the trott. Short of setting steel my options are limmited to making shots that most would never attempt. Yes I'm proud of those shots because they represent many hours of shooting expriance. If you don't like that its your problem.
You want to argue with people who know their area and what it takes to hunt there. This ain't my first rodeo and for you to question everything I say about the way I hunt is a joke and it makes you look like an ass.
sly
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 15, 2007, 04:30 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 15, 2007, 04:31 PM:
quote:
I have pretty much given up on trying to convince people that human pressure of ANY sort is going to cause coyotes to be more wary. Coyotes that are constantly spooked by ignorant people, are coyotes that are going to be harder to call. Period.
Rich, I also said in my post: "Too much human activity in any form can alter their movements and times of day they move but being gun shy or vehicle shy is not the same as call shy."
Human activity around here definitely affects the coyotes negatively. As with most places with high human pop. density they are very wary and very nocturnal. Would I categorize them as call shy? Not necessarily. I would categorize them as very friggin' suspicious and sneaky as hell, though.
As Sanford & Son as it sounds it is true.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 15, 2007, 04:33 PM:
Chad,
Here in western Iowa, everything is checkerboarded with crushed rock roads. A road every mile, which means that it is nearly impossible to get more than 1/2 mile from a road no matter how hard you try. On a calm day, even my old HUMAN ears can hear the sound of vehicle tires rolling down a rock road 1/2 mile away. This is the land of spooky coyotes, Chad. Not a coyote caller paradise I can tell ya.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 15, 2007, 04:44 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 15, 2007, 04:57 PM:
L: "Chad, you better quit ragging on Sly! Looks like you are really getting under his skin?"
Maybe he needs a thicker skin eh?
Chad makes a good point. With having exclusive access, if Sly's coyotes are being educated to calling then he must be doing the educating because where those coyotes are being educated is more important than how. If that wasn't the case, there would not be any merit to the fact that coyotes are easier to call away from a source of danger than towards a source of danger using the same sounds. Just proved that again in Wyoming.
"Scott Lite" huh? Hahaha! Sounds good to me.
I'll take an independent thinker over a mindless follower any day. You can't learn much from a follower.
~SH~
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 15, 2007, 05:20 PM:
I'd guess that a lot of the "shyness" comes from not getting into the "comfort" zone of the coyote. In those areas of wide open spaces with little to no cover and a rode within eye sight in one or more directions, the comfort zone is probably very small and getting into that zone without being busted is tuff at best.
The more I read about some of your guys country that you hunt, the more I like my area!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2007, 05:24 PM:
^what he said....
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 15, 2007, 05:37 PM:
Sly,
I'm not telling you how to do anything.You do whatever the hell you want.My point was that it is just as productive to change tactics to get those hard to get coyotes than it is to shoot at coyotes 700 yards away.Thats it.And you're telling me I'm full of shit and you've done everything that can be done.Fine I never said they were fix all tactics,go back and read my post I SAID SOMETIMES YOU CAN GET THEM NOT ALWAYS BUT SOMETIMES.
Your problem Sly is you talk yourself into a corner.Then you have to spend the next week or so trying to explain yourself.lol
UTcaller:I agree with Tim.
I try to limit my long range shooting to 300 yards or maybe alittle more on called coyotes.To many variables to be consistant much past that especially on coyotes.
As far as call-wise coyotes go,a change in a few calling tactics will alot of times bring those call shy coyotes in alittle closer so you don't have to take those lower percentenge shots out past 350 yards.Not all the time but alot of the time.
Good Hunting Chad
I was just giving MY OPINION on long range shooting on called coyotes,not personally attacking you for your expert long range shooting.You are right when you say I don't know your area and what it takes to kill tough coyotes there.But alot of the same problems you are talking about with calling pressure,and road riders/vehiles and guys taking long shots at coyotes we deal with here too.Just pointing out that there are other options other than taking a 700 yard shot at a coyote.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 15, 2007, 06:02 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 15, 2007, 06:10 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 15, 2007, 07:03 PM:
Ok Chad, I'll give you that. : in most situations changing tactics or setups or a combinations there of will work to get them in closer.
My point is this: I have tried changing up, setting up diferently and I have used the FoxPro and the wind to my best,Changed my hand calls around, changed my howlers and how I apply them. Maybe these coyotes ARE coyotes that I, myself have educated (multiples that got away)ECT...ECT. but I normaly can set up differently and change my sounds enough to get er done but on a few (Not many)but a few I have had to resort to long gunning to get the job done. This don't make me a reckless spray and pray kind of guy and I don't like that implication. That is all I'm saying!
__________________________________________________
Well Scott, I see you are back from your hunt and ready to start the crap all over again. Heard you and 2 others killed 7 on 21 stands. Whats your percentage there??? sure ain't 50%,, must have been a bad weekend. Did you try the chirp yet or are you even going to try to apply it and maybe learn something new.
Oyes by the way, Don't worry about how thick my hide is, you never worry about how thick anyone elses hide is when you try to tear down their ideas and thoughts. Keep on with your world, we all expect it from you.
ooooo Scotts back everyone be careful of having any thoughts that Scott don't agree with. We all need to be sheep and just follow the Great Wiley E God forbid we have thoughts of our own and ideas of how things work with out asking Scotts permission first......We should all just be good little "YES MEN" and never think for ourselfs...
Scott: "I'll take an independent thinker over a mindless follower any day. You can't learn much from a follower"
Whitch do you prefer Scott, people who agree with you or people who think for themselfs, cause you sure don't like people who disagree with you. Seems if they agree with you they are OK, let them have a mind of their own and an idea that by the way "WORKS" and you are all over them.................Kinda funny....................LOL..... well my finger is sore....nuff said.
sly
[ March 15, 2007, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 15, 2007, 07:50 PM:
Good hell Sly for someone who says they don't like these endless debates you sure as hell feed into them don't you.lol
Sly:This don't make me a reckless spray and pray kind of guy and I don't like that implication.
Show me where I implied you were a spray and pray kind of a guy.It ain't there... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Your paranoia is getting the best of you.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2007, 08:05 PM:
Good think we ain't got no beer, or you guys would be rolling in the dirt.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 15, 2007, 08:22 PM:
LMAO....
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 15, 2007, 08:45 PM:
Ask me why in the hell, I allowed myself to get dragged into this one? I live in Arizona,and southern Arizona to boot, the land where when you squeal on a call, a coyote runs in your lap. or so the rumor goes. My bone of contention is the long range shoot bulshit. You long rangers can call me all sorts of nasty names, but I believe, in what I think is an opinion formed from experience, is that any shot at a coyote, under "field" conditions, at anything approaching 700 yards,becomes more dependent upon luck, than it does mastery of ones rifle,and marksmanship. To my mind, a 300 yard poke at a coyote, is a pretty fair shot, and Im talking about the guy,and it might be you?, that can draw down,and tell you, "I can kill that coyote", and they/you do. Thats a good shot in my book. 90% of the coyotes I shoot, I swear are under the 100 yard mark,and most of those approach more like a 40-60 yard average. I still pop some that are "out there", but the ones past 300 yards are pretty rare.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 15, 2007, 09:07 PM:
Vic. You pretty much hit the nail on the head..
Most shots past 600 are pretty much a hale mary shot. Most of my shots this year have been under 600, unlike last year. Where i live though the ground is mostly flat with some little hills for a advantange point. When i see a coyote in the field and i take a long shot at them, i have enough room for maybe 3-5 shots if the coyote don't cross over the fence. I know i can't hit everyone at those long ranges but a guy can get lucky once in awhile. Its fun to try and i don't think i will stop trying, it also makes the game all that more interesting..
Take a look at this pic and tell me where is the coyote gonna go in the next 3-5 min.? I can't speak for the others, but here it takes the coyote a bit to reach safety. I was trying to think of a badd name to call you Vic (lol) but none came to mind.. Take care.... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0469.jpg[/IMG]] 
[ March 15, 2007, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2007, 10:37 PM:
TA, your pic is like 2dogs; he says a fly speck on the horizon is a coyote...check that, ten feet BELOW the horizon. Based on that, looks like you have a whole PACK of coyotes out there.
Vic, whatever it takes to smoke you out. I will say that shooting coyotes at anything beyond two hundred yards, under normal field conditions, is, or should be considered a long shot....anywhere but Minnesota or Iowa.
When I shoot a 500 yard coyote, and there have been a few; it is invariably from my rig and a very solid rest with an 18½ pound target rifle. If tempted to take a shot sitting on the ground, with sticks, I won't be attempting too many circus shots.
Now, I have said on a number of occasions that the conditions and the terrain figures into this predator hunting stuff. There have been many times, as I recall, where I have hunted all night in Nevada and killed ten coyotes, none of which were inside 250 yards. There is very little cover, the stunted sage and a few rocks might be 12-18" high, and well scattered, and coyotes might not want to get too close. Basically, the coyote can generally see you from that distance, with any kind of ambient light, moon or just starlight. This is why it is important to keep the light right above their eyes so they have a hard time making me out, with the glare. Now, some guys might say that these coyotes were not called, but I would disagree. Just different conditions and you have to do what you have to do.
No doubt about it, hunting various places requires specific measures that don't make sense, elsewhere.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 16, 2007, 04:53 AM:
I like to call them as close as I can, hence my 40-50 yard average. Guess some like to call and some like to shoot.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 16, 2007, 06:05 AM:
I guess that's been my point all along.I would try to change my tactics around to get a shot at a closer animal.I believe that it has more of a chance of being successful than a 600-700 yard lucky shot does.It wasn't directed toward Sly personally just an observation in general.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 16, 2007, 06:55 AM:
Amen Vic!
Show me a man that consistantly brags on long distance coyote shots and I'll show you a man who can't handle coyotes.
With all the variables that affect your ability to hit a target at that range, nobody but the least of experienced would be impressed. Hell, you have a good chance of a coyote taking a step or two before the bullet can even gets there. How smart is that?
On the occasion that I have had to kill a coyote beyond 300 yards, it's been a disappointment in my inability to get them closer. Certainly nothing to brag about.
In Wyoming I shot a coyote at 300+ yards and missed one at 300+ yards. I was more stable on the coyote I missed than the coyote I killed and can't tell you for the life of me why he didn't go down. I knew that this coyote had either spotted us coming in to the area or saw me skylined on a bald knob. Anyway, it was either shoot or watch it leave the country. That stand should have been approached from a different direction and we all knew it after the fact but it was a last ditch effort before departing the last day.
Sly: "Well Scott, I see you are back from your hunt and ready to start the crap all over again."
If you say so Sly!
Perhaps you can give us a play by play.
Sly: "Heard you and 2 others killed 7 on 21 stands. Whats your percentage there??? sure ain't 50%,, must have been a bad weekend."
Hahaha! As if you could judge the situation we called in from your computer screen. What an absolute telling statement. You know Sly, the more you type, the more I seriously question just how much you really do know.
If you are not experienced enough to realize that there can be variables out of your control that affect success, then you really are limited in your knowledge. Instead of judging the results, you'd show more experience to ask about the variables that contributed to those results.
At this stage of the game, I don't have anything left to prove and certainly not to you.
I'll tell you what Sly, if you want to judge me objectively, in a year from now you can contact Justin Westmoreland and Tom Schmid and ask them if they learned anything of value from me. I'll let their opinion of my techniques speak for me. Keep in mind that Tom Schmid is already one of the best coyote callers in the nation and has proven so time and time again in major contests.
This wasn't a hand picked area by me nor did I have any control of the weather. This wasn't a contest.
The first day the weather was snowing, sleeting, blowing, and raining. I had to stop and figure out the fences to remember where our pickup was parked. Had I not been giving instruction and had I not driven 8 hours to get there, I would have stayed home. We killed 2 that day which was good considering the circumstances. The next day was decent and we killed 5. The last day we only made 2 stands and never killed any. You think you are qualified to judge me based on that? Excuse me but....bwahahaha!
7 coyotes in 1 3/4 days would place in most contests.
Give me a decent day and I will usually kill coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes that I see that I have access to. Throw in bad weather, poor visibility, and unresponsive coyotes and those percentages drop fast for anyone. I would think if you had as much experience as you claim you'd know that.
All I can say is "wow", I honestly expected more from someone who claims as many years experience as you claim.
Sly: "Did you try the chirp yet or are you even going to try to apply it and maybe learn something new."
Nope! Might give it a try in the right situation but I seriously doubt it will improve on what I'm already doing.
Sly: "Oyes by the way, Don't worry about how thick my hide is, you never worry about how thick anyone elses hide is when you try to tear down their ideas and thoughts. Keep on with your world, we all expect it from you."
WE ALL expect it from you? Who do you think you are the spokesperson for Sly? I can only imagine.....
How many times do I have to tell you that I could give a shit less what anyone thinks of me, seriously! Can't you grasp that? I don't need anyone's approval or support. I stand alone and prefer it that way. I'll let my accomplishments speak for themselves.
I don't see questioning the logic behind the "estrous chirp" as tearing down an idea. If I don't agree with something, I'll state my thoughts and if you don't like that, I honestly don't care.
SLY: "ooooo Scotts back everyone be careful of having any thoughts that Scott don't agree with. We all need to be sheep and just follow the Great Wiley E God forbid we have thoughts of our own and ideas of how things work with out asking Scotts permission first......We should all just be good little "YES MEN" and never think for ourselfs..."
Hahaha!
That's all I have to say about that.
I'm just curious Sly, why did you call me on the phone? Did you honestly think you would get more satisfaction with a phone call than you've gotten here? Did you think my story would change? You must have really been disappointed huh?
Sly: "Whitch do you prefer Scott, people who agree with you or people who think for themselfs, cause you sure don't like people who disagree with you."
Finally, a logical question. Definitely people who think for themselves but that doesn't stop me from questioning their reasoning because I tend to question a lot of things. I like those who disagree with me IF they can back their positions. I also like those who are willing to admit that they don't know why coyotes respond to a certain sound even if the name they have given to that sound implies the reason for the response.
Try to find calm waters before you respond Sly because you usually make a fool of yourself when you fly off the handle.
Breathe in...
Breathe out...
Breathe in....
Breathe out ...
~SH~
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 16, 2007, 07:33 AM:
LOL Leonard. No thats just a pic from where i live, no coyotes in it just snow and some tree's on the horizen.
Tom: When i'm calling coyotes i like them to come within a 100 yds and no less. Its also nice if i can get them at that distance at home when hunting them, but thats not always the case. I'm after them for the fur and i'll will take the shot at any distance i feel comfortable with. If i hit a coyote at 600 yards its no big deal, just another one for the stretcher, and if i miss its no big deal there is always tommorrow or the next day. I have also learned that by practiceing at 100 yds out to 600 you can become a better shot, it just takes practice and an understanding of how youre rifle shoots...
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 16, 2007, 10:56 AM:
Scott,
If you think I'm worried about what you think of me you are so wrong.....LOL..... I have proven myself and my abilitys many times over and like you, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter.
Your comentary and blow by blow of your hunt is just what I thought it would be, nothing more. I just remember you talking about your 50% and 50% of that deal and wondered???? just an observation.
Scott: " Show me a man that consistantly brags on long distance coyote shots and I'll show you a man who can't handle coyotes."
That is funny sh**, and I see that you have an opinion on everything, and again it shows your personal limmitations.
Long range shooting is science not luck. Yes varibles can and will affect the outcome but lets not forget that skill and equipment are part of that equation.
I understand your position on long range shooting. Go back and read what I said. I have killed a few (key word) coyotes at extream long distance. Most of what I concider long shots are under 500, BTW I have stats on this portion of my hunting also, I know what my average is on long shots and I'm comfortable in my skin.
As far as you questioning my ability to handle coyotes.......ROFLMAO.....What a joke...Do you do standup?
As far as You not caring what people think of you, I'm sure you don't care what people think, You think enough of yourself to cover that.....
Scott: "As if you could judge the situation we called in from your computer screen."
That wasn't judgement, it was a QUESTION.....LOL
Scott,: "I also like those who are willing to admit that they don't know why coyotes respond to a certain sound even if the name they have given to that sound implies the reason for the response."
Here again, Scott, I DID NOT NAME THIS SOUND and I HAVE NEVER SAID," THIS IS WHATS GOING ON", I have said many times (go back and read) I think this is whats going on and you have blasted me for my thoughts but claim to admire independant thinkers, so pick one and stick with it Scott.
Everyone is intitled to their opinion and regardless of weather you agree or not you/me are intitled to our thoughts and the ability to express them.
As for our phone conversation, I was quite surprised and disapointed at the same time to find you had no Idea of the sound, had never heard of this kind of responce to a sound and I'm certian of this because you still want to associate it with common coyote vocalizations, rather than explore unknown territory. I do praise you for standing your ground and admire that quality.
You take it from there Scott and think what you like. I will do the same.
sly
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 17, 2007, 05:37 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 17, 2007, 09:22 AM:
Sly: "Just like the defending world champs who came to Idaho and hunted their ass off and got skunked, Goose egged the Idaho state championship less than a month after winning the world. What worked to win the world did not work in Idaho. Different day, time, weather conditions and country change the way you hunt everywhare you go."
Any coyote hunter worth his salt will eventually adapt to a new area and the various challenges presented by that new area. It's a rare occasion when someone goes into a new area and figures it out in the first couple days. I don't hold my head in shame because I fell on my face the first time I called Utah in the world hunt. There wasn't any coyotes where we called in one place and in another place, the coyotes were not where I figured they would be. Anyone who starts thinking they can go any place and kill coyotes without learning the area first will be introduced to their ignorance by none other than the coyotes themselves. Different areas require different tactics to be successful and that takes time. I don't call the same way in Colorado that I do in SD. Anyone who would judge someone's abilities based on a single event out of their normal calling environment only reveals the shortcomings in their own knowledge. If you came to SD and fell flat on your face I certainly wouldn't judge you based on a single event. If you are a real coyote hunter, you will adapt and learn and eventually become successful in any environment. ADC men who were used to the prairies and tried calling coyotes out of the cornfields in Eastern SD also got a rude awakening until they changed their tactics to capitalize on a coyote's natural ability to circle downwind.
Sly: "If you think I'm worried about what you think of me you are so wrong.....LOL....."
I don't think of you, period!
Dr. Phil: "You wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you knew how seldom they did".
Sly: "I have proven myself and my abilitys many times over and like you, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter."
Wonderful!
Then I can expect less defensiveness in your responses.
Sly: "That is funny sh**, and I see that you have an opinion on everything, and again it shows your personal limmitations."
My personal limitations?
No Sly, I think you have it wrong. A coyote caller's personal limitations are not in the inability to pull a long shot as much as their inability to get the coyote close enough for a decent shot. Anyone can tell you that the farther the shot the more chance there is to miss. If that wasn't the case, then nobody would call them into close range would they?
Tell me Sly, what is my personal limitations? Let's hear it.........enquiring minds want to know. This should be good.......
Sly: "Long range shooting is science not luck. Yes varibles can and will affect the outcome but lets not forget that skill and equipment are part of that equation."
I'm more than familiar with the skill involved in long range shooting Sly. I'm also more than familiar with the variables such as temperature, air density, shot angle, heat mirage, wind, heartbeat, etc. that can quickly foul a long range shot.
Let me ask you a simple question. Which do you prefer, a coyote standing broadside at 100 yards on a windy day or a coyote facing you at 600 yards on a windy day?
Yeh that's what I thought.
So the most important skill is in calling coyotes to gun range as opposed to taking long distance shots isn't it?
I realize there is times when you simply can't get a coyote any closer than that but the fact remains, if you are consistantly having to shoot coyotes at long range, there is something wrong with ONE'S calling. I'll hang my hat on that.
Sly: "As far as you questioning my ability to handle coyotes."
Sly, if you are at the airport and you overhear a conversation where someone says, "that stupid son of a @%@@!" do you automatically assume they are talking about you? LOL! I never mentioned your name Sly. I said "show me a man who consistantly shoots coyotes at long ranges and I'll show you a man who can't handle coyotes". I didn't even mention your name.
This reminds me of when I threw out the word "prostitute" and watched certain guys jump out of the weeds yelling "I'M NOT A PROSTITUTE". Talk about self-incrimination.
Sly: "As far as You not caring what people think of you, I'm sure you don't care what people think, You think enough of yourself to cover that....."
Don't confuse confidence with arrogance.
Sly: "Here again, Scott, I DID NOT NAME THIS SOUND and I HAVE NEVER SAID," THIS IS WHATS GOING ON", I have said many times (go back and read) I think this is whats going on and you have blasted me for my thoughts but claim to admire independant thinkers, so pick one and stick with it Scott."
I never said you did name the sound. You said you believed coyotes responded for sex and I said that I seriously question that.
I didn't "BLAST YOU", I simply presented a different opinion and questioned yours.
Just because I don't agree with your opinion doensn't contradict the fact that I respect independent thinking. It just happens that I don't agree with your opinion.
Sly: "Everyone is intitled to their opinion and regardless of weather you agree or not you/me are intitled to our thoughts and the ability to express them."
That's right! You are entitled to an opinion and I'm entitled to disagree with that opinion and the debate can help sort out who might be right and who might be wrong. The debate is what leads to critical thinking.
Sly: "As for our phone conversation, I was quite surprised and disapointed at the same time to find you had no Idea of the sound, had never heard of this kind of responce to a sound and I'm certian of this because you still want to associate it with common coyote vocalizations, rather than explore unknown territory."
Why would you be surprised that I had no idea of the sound when you said yourself, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, that you only heard it once I BELIEVE? Is that right?
I have no problems admitting that I have never heard the sound you made or the sound that Ronnie made. I don't need to impress anyone by jumping on the "estrous chirp" bandwagon.
You claimed that I had never heard of this kind of responce to a sound? That's not true Sly. I told you as I'm telling you now that I have seen that same reaction with other sounds that are more common than an "estrous chirp" and I told you then as I'm telling you now, you don't know the reason for the response.
I'm not unwilling to explore new sounds, I simply doubt that I will see a reaction that is any different than the sounds I am currently using and I seriously doubt whether any coyote will come back to the source of danger FOR SEX!
I could be wrong and the next time I have a coyote leaving the country I'll give him the old "estrous chirp" and see whether the reaction is any different than other more common sounds in that same situation.
You presented your opinion and I presented mine. Readers can sort it out for themselves. What a country huh?
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 17, 2007, 01:21 PM:
Wiley E : "Let me ask you a simple question. Which do you prefer, a coyote standing broadside at 100 yards on a windy day or a coyote facing you at 600 yards on a windy day?"
--------------------------------------
Wiley,
I would prefer a coyote standing broadside at FIFTY yards on a CALM day myself. I am much better when they are cooperating well ya know?
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 17, 2007, 02:40 PM:
quote:
I'm not unwilling to explore new sounds, I simply doubt that I will see a reaction that is any different than the sounds I am currently using and I seriously doubt whether any coyote will come back to the source of danger FOR SEX!
Wile - Any hope of you sharing these sounds? I would love to see how they work up here in Washington. I would turn over all my data to you, and you could use it if you are ever up here, or as assurance that you have sounds that will work in some completely different territory.
Rich, I like that shot you describe, but sometimes I like them to actually come up and sniff the end of the barrel. My killed to call ratio goes way up.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 17, 2007, 02:54 PM:
Wiley E : "I seriously doubt whether any coyote will come back to the source of danger FOR SEX!"
-------------------------------------------
Me too! I have known a few humans that did that though.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 17, 2007, 03:07 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 17, 2007, 04:09 PM:
TA17Rem:Most of you talk of ways to improve youre calling but you do nothing about youre shooting skills. With a little practice and the right tools you will find that you can gain a few more yards on youre shots and in time be more consistant at those longer shots. If you are just out for the enjoyment of calling then don't worry about it, but if you want to put more fur on the stretcher then you need to work on youre shooting skills.
I don't buy into that.I feel very confident in taking shots at coyotes from 50-300 yards.Anything further is a gamble,like I said just to many variables.I believe by refining my calling skills,along with a few tricks here and there and handling the coyotes that are within the range I just stated I put more fur on the stretcher.Not practicing long range shooting with all the variables that go along with it.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 17, 2007, 04:32 PM:
Seems logical to me, that is to practice a lot, including longer range shots than you are wanting to shoot in the field! It's deffinately true in archery that if you practice longer shots than you plan on using in hunting situations, those hunting distance shots are easier.
I've always thought that practice doesn't make perfect, but lots of perfect practice does! The more the better!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 17, 2007, 06:12 PM:
UT caller: "I don't buy into that.I feel very confident in taking shots at coyotes from 50-300 yards.Anything further is a gamble,like I said just to many variables."
---------------------------------------------
Very well said sir, but I still feel more comfy when they will come to what "appears" to be around 200 yards. Estimating the range gets real iffy for me beyond that distance. I can remember killing a couple of coyotes at what "appeared" to be 200 yards, and it turned out to be 240-250 yards when I stepped it off. Missing the range estimate is not that critical on "about 200", but could mean a clean miss or worse yet, a wounded coyote if he looks like 300, but turns out to be 350 or more.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 17, 2007, 07:15 PM:
Rich: Estimating the range gets real iffy for me beyond that distance. I can remember killing a couple of coyotes at what "appeared" to be 200 yards, and it turned out to be 240-250 yards when I stepped it off. Missing the range estimate is not that critical on "about 200", but could mean a clean miss or worse yet, a wounded coyote if he looks like 300, but turns out to be 350 or more.
That's why I usually carry a Leica rangefinder,not so much to range a specific animal(although that has come in handy too) but to range the terrain/surroundings I am calling in before I start calling,for the very reason you stated.For me a 300-350 yards is about my limit especially with 35 grain bergers in my .204 ruger.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 17, 2007, 07:45 PM:
tlbradford: "Wile - Any hope of you sharing these sounds? I would love to see how they work up here in Washington. I would turn over all my data to you, and you could use it if you are ever up here, or as assurance that you have sounds that will work in some completely different territory."
Sorry but that wouldn't be fair to those who have paid for personal instructions and I need to retain a competitive edge in my job.
~SH~
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 17, 2007, 08:32 PM:
Well no harm in asking. It was worth a shot.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2007, 06:01 AM:
UTcaller,
I can certainly understand your methods, and I have to admit that the idea of setting up for long range work has crossed my mind many times. A good range finder like you mention, plus a level being mounted on my scope are just a couple of things I have considered.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2007, 06:06 AM:
"Sorry but that wouldn't be fair to those who have paid for personal instructions and I need to retain a competitive edge in my job."
----------------------------
That is an honest answer right there.
Scott,
You haven't been using the estrus chirp have you?
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 18, 2007, 07:14 AM:
Rich: "You haven't been using the estrus chirp have you?"
Old dog new tricks!
~SH~
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on March 18, 2007, 07:16 AM:
I realize I am not the caller all you guys are, I take more satisfaction using a call to get the coyote to where I can kill him, I quess I don't take as much satifaction in killing one in real close as i do when he first stops within range that I am comfortable with.If he gets in close it is because he did not stop or came in close under cover.Enjoy reaching out and touching them a rifle I am very familar with. But i don't mean 600 yds either.My hunting partner and I are probably more killers than caller . Maybe I should find a different bulletin board but I learn a lot and get a lot of new perspective here.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2007, 08:27 AM:
6mm284,
A different bulletin board? Heck no. You are welcome right here.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2007, 08:30 AM:
Well, I think Huntmasters has room under the tent for the long range snipers and the close range artists?
The problem with every form of communication, spoken word, or electronic, is the qualifications needed following a general statement. There is always somebody that takes every word literally and every action as rigid practice. After a few experiences, you seek a level with which you are comfortable. Who really cares?
I keep mentioning .....that within a single stand, if you want to mop up the whole pack, you need to hit a
(#1) stationary animal followed by a
(#2) runner, followed by
(#3) another stationary animal way out there.
Yeah, yeah, call them in close, or dump that dog's dick in the dirt when he first stops, it don't matter to this kid. Less pronouncements, more fundamental grasp of the subject matter.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2007, 08:45 AM:
"Yeah, yeah, call them in close, or dump that dog's dick in the dirt when he first stops, it don't matter to this kid. Less pronouncements, more fundamental grasp of the subject matter."
-----------------------
Well said Leonard! We give each other a rough time in here now and then, but always remember that it is just a campfire surrounded by story swapping friends.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 18, 2007, 09:25 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 18, 2007, 10:07 AM:
I'll bite> What kind of pistols does one-dog use?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 18, 2007, 10:11 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 18, 2007, 10:25 AM:
would he be useing a Pifle then.. LOL
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2007, 11:20 AM:
Pistol, Smistol!! My friend Higgy calls em in real close and ugly's em to death. Saves ammo that way.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 18, 2007, 12:16 PM:
Sorry guys but I haven't reached an understanding with Sly yet.
The rest of you can just pass this by.
Sly: "Your comentary and blow by blow of your hunt is just what I thought it would be, nothing more."
What is that supposed to mean Sly?
What did you think it would be? You weren't there and why do you care anyway?
Interestingly in another post you just got done saying.....
Sly: "Time of year, location, weather, calling ability, hunting presure, coyote dencity and a thousand other varibles contribute to success and lets not forget LUCK."
You are correct about that.
So if you understand the variables that can affect success from one area to the next, why did you say.......
Sly: Heard you and 2 others killed 7 on 21 stands. Whats your percentage there??? sure ain't 50%,, must have been a bad weekend."
Hmmmm??? What gives there?
I wasn't in a competition hunt Sly, I was giving instructions on a ranch I had never been to before under adverse weather conditions for the first full day.
On one hand you seem to want to judge my performance in Wyoming but on the other hand you want to show enough experience to acknowledge the variables that contribute to success or failure from one place to another.
What was your point of pointing out how we did in Wyoming and the percentages?
I read your....
Sly: "I just remember you talking about your 50% and 50% of that deal and wondered???? just an observation."
What can you possibly observe without knowing the variables that you acknowledge as contributing to success or failure?
Calling coyotes on 50% of my stands and killing 50% of the coyotes that I see that I have access to is a goal that I usually strive for in competition hunts when I have an area scouted, my coyotes located, and the weather cooperates.
That doesn't apply to giving instructions in a place I have never been before.
Have you made my percentages a benchmark for others?
I missed those percentages in St. Francis this year by a mile but there is good reason for that.
If you are of the competitive nature Sly, I'd suggest you enter Rawlins, St. Francis, Martin, New Salem or the World hunt and see how you do. Perhaps you and Lance could team up.
For someone who supposedly understands the variables that can lead to success and for someone who just paid me a compliment on a thread about those variables (which I appreciate), you seem awful quick to judge.
Correct me if I'm wrong!
I was also amazed at the speed of the mocassin telegram in reporting the results of our hunt. What do you keep track of me or something? That's wierd!
~SH~
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2007, 12:28 PM:
...or maybe somebody in your posse is a blabbermouth? Rock Stars don't have any privacy, Scott. Shit, I hope I never say anything inconsistant?
(this is) Cheap entertainment, keeps us from blowing our money in Honky Tonks.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 18, 2007, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2007, 01:30 PM:
Mocassin telegram, mocassin telegram------hmmmmmmmm hang on a minute--(Rich bangs head on floor while laughing, thinks about maybe sueing Scott). Is THAT something like smoke signals? Mocassin telegram, now THAT is funny.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 18, 2007, 03:41 PM:
Leonard: "Shit, I hope I never say anything inconsistant?"
If you did I would hope you wouldn't take offense to my asking for an explanation.
Rush Limbaugh: "Words mean things"
~SH~
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 18, 2007, 07:27 PM:
Scott I'm through with the cut and past war. I simply gave you a tast of what you do to others and I see you don't like it either.
As I have said many times, I respect your knowledge, Your opinion and your thoughts. I don't like the way you poke fun at things you have NO knowledge of and things you disagree with. Thats it in a nut shell. You sir have no Freeking idea who I am or what I know and for you to sit in judgment of me and through a tantrum if I do it back is so damn funny it hurts.......LOL
To debate is one thing Scott but you make it personal with suttle little slams and if someone does it back to you, you want to call them out over it, sorry I don't have time for school games.
We are both a little old for games and this back and forth BS is getting old to me and I'm sure the readers are tired of it also.
If you want to discuss the "Estrus Chirp" concept and the application of this sound, by all means lets do that. If you want to play little word games I'm sorry I realy don't have time for it.
sly
[ March 18, 2007, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 18, 2007, 11:46 PM:
Well I thought about it and I thought about it some more.
I guess I have to answer a few of your questions.
#1 Sly: "Your comentary and blow by blow of your hunt is just what I thought it would be, nothing more."
What is that supposed to mean Sly?
Well Scott, I know that every situation is different, I also know that no matter who you are or think you are, there are variables that you/we/I cannot control that dictate the outcome of a hunt.
I was also just pointing out that sometimes you aren't always consistant with what you say or claim. Should I question your ability because of one hunt that I wasn't present for? Should I question your ability because you weren't consistant with what you claim? Should I bring to question your ability with the little amount of information I have?
I don't think so but you do it all the time.
Sly: Heard you and 2 others killed 7 on 21 stands. Whats your percentage there??? sure ain't 50%,, must have been a bad weekend."
Hmmmm??? What gives there?
You do this to others all the time, you have done this to me on several ocasions without all the information, just drawing your own conclusions and then making rather pissy comments. Its different when the shoe is on the other foot, ain't it Scott.
Sly: "I just remember you talking about your 50% and 50% of that deal and wondered???? just an observation."
What can you possibly observe without knowing the variables that you acknowledge as contributing to success or failure?
Exactly Scott, by golly your catching on. How can you try to blow holes in a thought about a sound YOU DON"T EVEN UNDERSTAND!!!!! Or have an idea how it works or how to apply it at this point. But you continue to blast me and my Thoughts every chance you get.
Its funny to me how you can judge me and put my expieriance using this sound to question when you admittedly don't have a clue about this sound. Hell Scott, your still trying to associate this "Estrus Chirp" to known coyote vocalizations.
Listen close Scott, It ain't a distress type sound! I know the difference. Its not like any other coyote sound I have ever heard. This sound stands alone and when you do hear it, it sounds like a 40# bird. Nothing like a coyote sounds and if you don't see the coyote make the sound you would not associate it with the coyote, period.
If you are of the competitive nature Sly, I'd suggest you enter Rawlins, St. Francis, Martin, New Salem or the World hunt and see how you do. Perhaps you and Lance could team up.
I already have a competition partner and have hunted the world. I have never been booted either so lets not go there Scott... See you just don't know when to rest your finger do you..
Its all fun and games when you are the one poking the fun at others but when its you who's being inpuned its different.
Scott: "Sorry guys but I haven't reached an understanding with Sly yet."
In other words you haven't gotten me to play your game by your rules. or just simply be a sheep that follows Blindly behind Scott and don't think for themself...... I don't think so.
Prolly won't either cause you play a little game on words and make slanderous statments about people you don't even know or have a clue as to who they are or what they know, all to make yourself, Da man. Well you Da man, Scott.......
sly
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 19, 2007, 07:25 AM:
Sly: "I simply gave you a tast of what you do to others and I see you don't like it either."
Of course you did. There's more than one way to divert contradictions isn't there? LOL!
I simply asked for an explantion for your contradictions that I was pretty sure I wouldn't get and I was right.
Sly: "I don't like the way you poke fun at things you have NO knowledge of and things you disagree with. Thats it in a nut shell."
First, I don't care whether you like my style or not.
Second, I have a lot of knowledge about coyote behavior which is why I didn't care for the way you make claims about responses that you cannot prove.
You don't know why coyotes are responding to this "chirp" that by your own admission you have heard very few times.
You've shown your cards from the standpoint of just how much knowledge you have of this sound. By your own admission, you have admitted that you have heard it very few times if more than once. By your own admission, you have admitted you don't know the reason they respond. All you know is the reaction that you have gotten. The knowledge base about the sound is limited so why would you be defensive when someone questions THE REASON FOR a reaction to a sound that you've only heard a few times? Why would you get defensive over someone questioning the translation of that sound by something other than a coyote (human duplication of the sound)? You don't stand on solid ground regarding this "chirp" so why pretend otherwise?
Bottom line, you don't know why coyotes respond to your "chirps" and you don't know what they believe that sound is through translation. I believe it's important for readers to know that because any more than that would be misleading.
I certainly understand coyotes enough to know our limitations in understanding their reactions and that is the point I wanted to make and did make.
What's interesting will be when more people start using this sound and it either becomes a revolutionary part of coyote vocalizations or it fades into oblivion because it does no more than existing sounds do.
Sly: "You sir have no Freeking idea who I am or what I know and for you to sit in judgment of me and through a tantrum..."
I don't need to know who you are. I don't sit in judgement of you beyond what you write and unlike you, I don't have anyone keeping track of where you are going or what you are doing.
I sit in judgement of what you print and I'll continue to do so. Tantrum?? You have quite an imagination Sly which might help explain why you might be reading more into a "chirp" response than just the response.
This is your writing style Sly, you use words like "tantrum" and you can't back that either.
Sly: "Well Scott, I know that every situation is different, I also know that no matter who you are or think you are, there are variables that you/we/I cannot control that dictate the outcome of a hunt."
Exactly and you contradicted that by making an issue of percentages ON A SINGLE HUNT. To justify it, you spin it as an "introduction to what I have done to others" but you can't back that either.
Sly: "I was also just pointing out that sometimes you aren't always consistant with what you say or claim."
That is not true. Your misinterpretation of what I say or claim is clearly what I take issue with.
I never claimed to kill 50% of the coyotes I see in every situation or claimed that I kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to in every situation and certainly not while giving instructions in a place I have never been before.
What I have said is that my goal is to kill coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes that I see that I have access to and many times when conditions are right, DURING COMPETITION HUNTS, I ACHIEVE OR SURPASS THAT GOAL.
Now if you do not believe that is the case, I challenge you to conduct a search on "50%" and prove me wrong. You won't Sly because I don't change my stories.
Now who has egg on their face?
Sly: "Should I question your ability because of one hunt that I wasn't present for? Should I question your ability because you weren't consistant with what you claim? Should I bring to question your ability with the little amount of information I have?
I don't think so but you do it all the time."
This is exactly where I take issue with you.
You claim "I do it all the time" but you can't back the allegation with even one actual quote. You just think readers will blindly follow your interpretation of events without thinking for themselves and assume you are correct. I give readers a lot more credit than you obviously do.
BRING ME ONE QUOTE WHERE I JUDGED THE RESULTS OF A HUNT OF YOURS.
You won't because it didn't happen.
BRING ME THE QUOTE WHERE I STATED I KILL COYOTES ON 50% OF MY STANDS ON EVERY HUNT I MAKE.
You won't because it didn't happen.
BRING ME THE QUOTE WHERE I QUESTIONED YOUR ABILITIES AS A HUNTER.
You won't because it didn't happen. But you'd sure like readers to believe it happened wouldn't you?
To the contary, you just did that very thing to me on the topic of long range shooting.
That is what is called, "CREATING AN ILLUSION" and I'm not going to stand for it. You only make yourself look bad.
Sly: "You do this to others all the time, you have done this to me on several ocasions without all the information, just drawing your own conclusions and then making rather pissy comments. Its different when the shoe is on the other foot, ain't it Scott."
Bring the quote Sly! Bring it! I'm calling your bluff.
Now how will it be Sly? Let's weigh your options:
1. You can come clean and admit it never happened once let alone several times.
2. You can provide the quote or quotes and back your position.
3. You can divert and claim you don't have time for "school yard games".
4. Or you can claim that I edited those "so called" pissy responses out of my posts which would be a lie.
Hmmmm??? The suspense is killing me.....
Sly: "How can you try to blow holes in a thought about a sound YOU DON"T EVEN UNDERSTAND!!!!! Or have an idea how it works or how to apply it at this point. But you continue to blast me and my Thoughts every chance you get."
You don't understand this sound yourself Sly. You've already admitted that you don't know why coyotes respond and you've already admitted you have heard this sound very few times. YOUR CARDS ARE ALREADY ON THE TABLE. You can't pretend you have some knowledge base regarding this sound that you don't have or you would be changing your story and we all know why people do that.
I have every right to question a coyote's reaction to this sound, I have every right to question a coyote's interpretation of this sound, I have every right to question the duplication of this sound, and I have every right to question whether the reaction to this sound is any better than the reaction to other sounds we are currently using. I HAVE THAT RIGHT BECAUSE THE KNOWLEDGE BASE IS SO LIMITED AND I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT COYOTE BEHAVIOR.
Another example of your vivid imagination is in the use of the word "BLASTED". Show me where I supposedly "BLASTED" you in this thread. I am simply responding to your direct statements so you cannot claim that you were taken out of context. You are the one who is misleading readers here and you have been challenged to back your claims. When you bring an example of being "BLASTED" make sure you bring the quote I was responding to as well so readers can see where the "BLASTING" originated.
Sly: "Hell Scott, your still trying to associate this "Estrus Chirp" to known coyote vocalizations."
Why wouldn't I?
#1. You yourself admit the sound is rare and you admitted you didn't know the reason for the response.
#2. I haven't heard the sound and I've been around coyotes my entire life.
#3. Anyone that knows anything about coyote vocalizations should know that the sound we are trying to duplicate might not be the sound a coyote believes it is hearing.
Damn straight I would associate it with other known vocalizations because we don't know what a coyote thinks it's hearing and why they respond AND YOU ADMITTED THAT.
Sly: "Listen close Scott, It ain't a distress type sound! I know the difference. Its not like any other coyote sound I have ever heard. This sound stands alone and when you do hear it, it sounds like a 40# bird. Nothing like a coyote sounds and if you don't see the coyote make the sound you would not associate it with the coyote, period."
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT A COYOTE BELIEVES IT IS HEARING WHEN YOU DUPLICATE THIS SOUND.
You can't even admit that something can be lost in the interpretation. Hell, I know the difference between a man blowing a howler and a coyote howling so why wouldn't you think coyotes, WITH THEIR FAR BETTER HEARING, would also know the difference between a real "estrous chirp" or whatever you believe you are duplicating and a "estrous chirp" duplication by a human?
One of the things I emphasize the most in my personal instructions is understanding sounds from a coyote's perspective.
Sly: "I have never been booted either so lets not go there Scott..."
Oh gee, aren't you soooo clever Sly? Looks like you already went there huh? Haha!
So I split from the same vehicle. STONE ME! LOCK ME IN A STOCKADE! Lock me up next to the guys who pooled coyotes, started early, trapped or snared coyotes, run coyotes with pickups, etc. etc. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
I'll compete with anyone anywhere on a level playing field Sly and you can take that to the bank.
Have your feeding frenzy Sly, it only exposes your own insecurities.
Sly: "Its all fun and games when you are the one poking the fun at others but when its you who's being inpuned its different."
Take your shots Sly but if I disagree with something you have stated, rest assured, you will be questioned on it. Dragging up dirt on me will not give you a reprieve from my questioning.
Here, let me help you out Sly. On the last day of my Senior high school, I threw a match in a waste basket and started a fire. I eventually got caught and painted bus sheds for two weeks. Does that help with your insecurities Sly? You can use that. If I can help you dig up any more dirt on me, let me know.
Sly: "Prolly won't either cause you play a little game on words and make slanderous statments about people you don't even know or have a clue as to who they are or what they know, all to make yourself, Da man. Well you Da man, Scott......."
Talk certainly is cheap isn't it? Anyone can read the posts Sly, they don't need your interpretation especially when it's so obvious that you can't back your smack by bringing an actual quote.
Bring the slanderous statement Sly. What seems to be the problem? You just expect everyone to mindlessly follow your interpretation of events? You apparently think readers are far less intelligent than I do if you think they're going to fall for your interpretation of events.
Back your smack Sly! Bring the quotes!
Observe the diversion.........
Breathe in....
Breathe out....
Breathe in....
Breathe out...
~SH~
[ March 19, 2007, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 19, 2007, 08:33 AM:
Scott, I am pretty sure this is the quote Sly was referring to when you talked about percentages. quote:
By your own statistics, you only killed coyotes on 11% of your stands and only killed 38% of the coyotes you call and you think that is going to stop predation? If my calling statistics were that poor, I'd quit. If I can't consistantly call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I'm disatisfied.
When I read that quote I understood it to mean for all situations. I didn't know you would later qualify this statement by saying that it was only a goal, or that it was a factual statement on stands under ideal conditions. I hope you can understand how someone could take you literally at the time.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 19, 2007, 09:25 AM:
tl,
That was a response to Lance, not to Sly!
Lance's statistics were not from one hunt but rather were from a lengthy time period. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.
As anyone can plainly see, I never said I called coyotes on 50% of my stands or that I kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to. I said I am disappointed when I don't achieve those results particularly when I am competition hunting with the weather in my favor.
That doesn't come close to backing what Sly said. Not even remotely close. Words mean things.
~SH~
[ March 19, 2007, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 19, 2007, 10:30 AM:
Right about now, it occurs to me that if a member hankers to debate Scott, he best take his lunch. I don't (and won't) address the points scored for, or against; but just the sheer magnitude of the effort. Awesome!
Not to forget our friend, Sly. He's a real bull dog, he is. He must know sumpthin(?) those decals don't grow on trees? And, a years worth of badgers in an afternoon? That's awesome, in it's own right.
For what it's worth, I'm not really on board with the percentages game. Depending on the season, the area and the time of day, an expert can step on his dick, attempting to maintain his average. I could quote responses between the hours of dawn to 10:00A.M. in November, and come up with a number well above 100%, considering multiples. And, that's cold calling..... Meaningless, compared to July, where I might be seeing two animals all day and killing one.
I just hope both of you guys are learning something, even if it has nothing to do with coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 19, 2007, 08:35 PM:
By your own statistics, you only killed coyotes on 11% of your stands and only killed 38% of the coyotes you call and you think that is going to stop predation? If my calling statistics were that poor, I'd quit. If I can't consistantly call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I'm disatisfied.
--------------------------------------------------
Here's what I gather from the quote at face value. You (WileyE)Implied that this was for all calling situations. It was a discussion about predation and not contest calling. Lance said he didn't enter contests. So why would you give him a 50/ 50 ratio having to do with contest calling and not calling having to do with predation? Diversion?
Wouldn't we all be a little dissatisfied with only killing 50% of what we called if it were our job? Shit! If it were my JOB I'd hope those figures would be higher! If I have nothing else to do except call and kill coyotes I'd want 90- 100%. But that's just me and it's a passion not a way to pay bills.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 19, 2007, 09:09 PM:
Smithers: "Here's what I gather from the quote at face value. You (WileyE)Implied that this was for all calling situations."
The statement is self explanatory. There is no implication. If I do not call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I am disatisfied, period. Doesn't matter whether I am recreational calling, contest calling, or working predation complaints.
Smithers: "It was a discussion about predation and not contest calling. Lance said he didn't enter contests."
It was a discussion on recreational calling, not predation. Lance stated he killed coyotes on only 11% of his stands. I don't care what the situation is, those are very low percentages.
Smithers: "So why would you give him a 50/ 50 ratio having to do with contest calling and not calling having to do with predation?"
I didn't give him a 50/50 ratio Smithers. Those are my percentage goals. He gave me an 11% stand success ratio for recreational calling.
Smithers: "Diversion?"
No, I'd call your response more like "spin".
Smithers: "Wouldn't we all be a little dissatisfied with only killing 50% of what we called if it were our job?"
Why would a desire to achieve the highest percentages possible change from recreational calling to predation calling to contest calling? That doesn't even make sense.
"Well charlie, I think we need to back down on our percentages today since we are just recreational calling"
Ridiculous!
Smithers: "Shit! If it were my JOB I'd hope those figures would be higher!"
Are you honestly going to try to make the argument that during predation hunts your percentages should be higher than contest hunts?
Smithers: "If I have nothing else to do except call and kill coyotes I'd want 90- 100%."
Who has absolutely nothing else to do except call and kill coyotes? Do you just make this shit up?
What you want and what is realistically achievable are two entirely different things. It doesn't matter whether you are contest hunting, recreational hunting, or working predation, anyone wants their percentages to be as high as they can be.
Smithers: "But that's just me and it's a passion not a way to pay bills."
So if it's a passion, why wouldn't you want your percentages to be as high as they could be whether you were working complaints, recreational calling, or contest calling?
You don't even make sense Smithers.
Incidentally, when I am calling behind decoy dogs in a denning situation, my percentages are usually closer to 75%.
BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!
~SH~
[ March 19, 2007, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 20, 2007, 07:51 AM:
Yes, I do make this shit up.
When I say nothing to do but call and kill coyotes it is a generalization. Meaning you have more time than the average joe to call.
It does make sense to want your percentages higher when you are calling for predation than in contests because someone's livlihood is on the line and because killing the killers is the only way to make it stop.
I agree you would want your percentages to stay high for rec, contest or predation. But you seemed to be getting bent out of shape defending your contest results and making it seem your other calling percentages may be lower.
Calling predators, for me, is a passion but I don't live and breathe numbers, as some do. You'll se why right here------> With the limited time I have to hunt I am just glad to be out there. I called in 17 coyotes this year. I killed 1. Not a good percentage but I am hunting a couple hours a week after work in some pretty tough conditions. This year just plain sucked for me. I didn't get out that much at night when THEY are out more. Otherwise, I would hope I would have had more call ins and kills.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 20, 2007, 11:32 AM:
Hey, leave me outta this!
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 20, 2007, 12:30 PM:
Scott,
Don't worry I haven't forgot about you, I'm just up to my ass in Badger complaints and getting calls out. I'll deal with you when I have time. I'm not done with you, I'm not as good as you are at the cut and post so its takin me a while.
just breath in.. breath out... I'll get to you when I get to you.....
sly
Posted by horndog (Member # 1214) on March 20, 2007, 01:37 PM:
WileyE,
you don't know me, but i do know Sly,and you sir need to take a pill and chill out a little. :rolleyes:I for one don't like to come to the fourm and here about how good people think they are or not.life is to short to bitch all the time,don't you think?
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 20, 2007, 07:30 PM:
I've heard a lot of politicians go at it,but they wouldn't hold a candle stick to these guys. Who's voting for bambi? Can we at least agree on couple nay's.?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 20, 2007, 07:37 PM:
Melvin,
I am waiting to see how well hornydog holds up under pressure. I don't know much about this new candidate yet. Possibly a relative of slydog's?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 20, 2007, 08:16 PM:
Idaho registrations are pouring in.
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 20, 2007, 08:59 PM:
I like them 30 yards away, head up, ears erect, and standing still. Much like the one at the top of the page. The shotgun will do the rest. I can’t document it but I would WAG my average distance is within 50 yards.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 21, 2007, 05:21 AM:
Well, good to hear from you Sly! I'm glad you have a support group. Perhaps they can help you to back your views. I would expect nothing less than a rash of generalizing statements with nothing to back them either. Hope I'm wrong. The posts are all still there. If you plan to simply make generalizing statements, you best be prepared to back them with an actual quote or it will only reveal the egg on your face.
Can't wait to see you divert from having to back your statements regarding your interpretation of me and my posts.
Smithers: "It does make sense to want your percentages higher when you are calling for predation than in contests because someone's livlihood is on the line and because killing the killers is the only way to make it stop."
The pressure is no different between contest hunts and predation. Actually there is more pressure with contest hunts because I can trap, snare, M-44, and aerial hunt coyotes that I botch by calling.
Smithers: "But you seemed to be getting bent out of shape defending your contest results and making it seem your other calling percentages may be lower."
Hahaha! Why would I get bent out of shape defending my contest results? My contest results speak for themselves. If you want to know the variables that contributed to a lower percentage on a certain contest hunt ask away.
St Francis this year? Walking 8 - 10 miles through 6" - 8" of hard packed snow breaking through on every step along with the noise of pulling a calf sled which resulted in only 8 stands for a day when we normally get 12 - 15 stands in. My GPS showed that I was averaging 1.5 - 2 mph. Those arent excuses, they're facts.
What I think is funny is how some guys will sit and evaluate my performance when they don't have the self confidence to put their money on the table. Once I learn an area, I'll compete with anyone anywhere ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, period.
~SH~
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 21, 2007, 06:20 AM:
Oh shit Scott, you`ve done riled the entire Idahoanese nation.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 21, 2007, 06:50 AM:
An e-mail from a friend got me thinking about some of the threads like this. One thing we can all agree on is that no thread or idea goes unscrutinized here, and that to me is a good thing. We have the ability here to call bullshit and debate it all we want (thanks to Leonard's policies). If not for this self policeing attitude this board would be like most of the others where you don't dare challenge another members ideas or bullshit stories or the challenger is booted out. If that were the case this place would just be another predator masters where any high school kid with a imaginative mind can be a coyote killing son of a gun. He can tell everyone what a hunter he is, feed regurgitated information to magazine writers, be a government hunter, or whatever he wants. At least until someone calls his mom. But here we have mostly real coyote hunters, the rest seem to get lost along the roadside. We may not all agree all the time, but it beats the hell out of being forced to agree all the time.
[ March 21, 2007, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 21, 2007, 07:22 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 21, 2007, 07:37 AM:
Good post Cal.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2007, 07:41 AM:
Well, thanks Cal. Appreciate the vote of confidence. Sometimes I wonder if I get more curses than praise, for HM policies?
You guys are always welcome to speak your mind, let the chips fall where they may.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 21, 2007, 07:49 AM:
Still got your rifle sighted 10 inches high at 200 yards I see, 2dogs.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 21, 2007, 09:01 AM:
I 100% agree with Cal. I have learned more from reading the posts here in the past 2 weeks, than I have ever learned on any other forum. The debating and challenging is what spurs growth and knowledge. Great site Leonard, keep it up.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 21, 2007, 11:18 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2007, 11:34 AM:
Iowa?
Wouldn't that be like having the Stanley Cup playoffs in Tahiti?
The Meat Packers Convention, maybe?
Bisbee Billfish Tournament in Iowa? Hardly.
National Corn Harvest Festival? possible
Cow Pie Throwing Championship, (probably the summer's biggest event)
American Idol try outs? (don't hold your breath)
BS convention? Now we're talking!
(Lord, I apologize for that...and be with the starving pigmies in Africa)
But, no campout in Iowa. Too many coyoteX's, for one thing, and it's too centrally located, for another.
Good suggestion, though. LB
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 21, 2007, 12:10 PM:
Well Scott,
This debate has jumped track as do most of your debates. It has come down to your opinion vers mine. Your opinion is based on your expieriance without knowledge of the sound or its application. My opinion is based on my expieriance having used and seen this sound in action.
You have stated that I have mislead the reader with misleading information and have done so on many ocations, show me without taking a sentence out of a paragraph{we all know that can change the meaning}where I made any STATMENTS. You can't do it because it didn't happen. Its been YOUR SPIN that has done that, your wanting to make these observations and THOUGHTS of mine into statments that has led us to this place.
Your inability to disprove my thoughts through debate has caused you to change the issue from the validity of a sound to a personal attack on my abilitys and knowledge. Talk about a spin...LOL
You sir have to much time on your hands waiting for the phone to ring.........LOL.. I on the other hand don't have that much time to spend going back to read what You and I have written so I can play your game of cut and past. I have shown you that I too can play the game. Unfortunatly I'm not as articulat as you and don't have as much free time on my hands. So you can wast your time trying to bait me into your world but its just that, a wast of your time.
You thrive on the fight and loose track of what you are fighting over. First it was the name and its implications, then it was the concept,then it was that I was misleading the reader, then it was that it was for profit, then it was about my ability to handle coyotes and so on and so on. Face it Scott, you like to argue.
I spent a few hours sitting at this PC composing a list of arguements and rebuttles for your comments with the cut and past Bullsh** and sat here this morning reading what I had wrote. All I saw in it was more cut and past war and although you dig it, I don't.
You have an explanation for everything you say and that explanation changes as needed to validate what you say. You are very carfull to say things without realy saying them and you are very good at it. You write " words mean things" and you are right, words out of context mean other things and you know that and you are a master at munipulating those words. I on the other hand am not, I just have to say what I think and go from there.
You and all of your yes men jumped on me over my thoughts and when one person from Idaho, that was not solisited by the way, posts something to you about the fact that he is tired of your crap, you turn that into another dig on me. Damn your good Scott......
I want this on the reccord Scott, I'm in no way backing down from you! Not now, not ever, you can't take away my "thoughts or my right to share them" even with your cut and past war.
You can argue over anything you want but arguing over a persons thoughts is ludicrist.
For the reccord: I in no way made any statments I.E. THIS IS WHAT THE COYOTES THINK. I simply said: This is what I "THINK" they are thinking and you have tried to turn that into a statment.... Talk about a spin DR.
Also I never said: this sound is or will ever be better than sounds we already commonly use,:lipsqueek, KIYI, Rabbit and so on. YOU DID THAT SCOTT, not me. I do think it is a sound that will add to the overall ability of coyote hunters everywhere to increse their numbers. Again this is just my thoughts everyone, so as to not have this turned around and used against me later I wanted to clairify it.
You have tried to twist my thoughts into statments and when all was done you found yourself in a war of two different opinions with no winner so it took a "SPIN" to something different and if you change the topic enough you will find yourself on ground where you have the advantage.I.E. cut and past war....
It started out as a good debate and much good has come from it. Unfortunatly it has changed its corse and has become personal, this changes the makup of the debate and floods this board with crap that serves no purpouse. I apoligise to the readers for allowing myself to be draged into a sh** slinging affair and loose track of what is important, "The Sound" and its effectiveness.
Thanks LB for your paitents throughout this war.
Last but not least, Thanks Scott for helping to fule the fire and get people to talking about this sound and trying it for themselfs. As you say: Can't argue with results. People are trying this sound, having some success and then there is the other side that has mixed reactions and more questions than answers, not unlike myself.
This has done what it was suposed to do in that through debate, it has spured peoples intrest and has them trying it. Results speek for themselfs. Now whats needed is time and a better example of this sound for the folks who are trying it. I'm working on that at this time. Time and application will tell the tail in the long run. We will see who has egg on their face then.....
OK Scott, Breath in... Breath out....and run along and wait for the phone to ring, I have piles of crap to get done before My trip and arguing with you over bullsh** is not one of them.
Later
sly
[ March 21, 2007, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 21, 2007, 12:22 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 21, 2007, 01:03 PM:
Very well said Cal.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 21, 2007, 06:49 PM:
quote:
But, no campout in Iowa. Too many coyoteX's, for one thing, and it's too centrally located, for another.
Now I find that very amusing. The subtlety. Simple and effective. Too many coyoteX's! Great.
quote:
What I think is funny is how some guys will sit and evaluate my performance when they don't have the self confidence to put their money on the table. Once I learn an area, I'll compete with anyone anywhere ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, period.
Two guys could be sitting on opposite sides of the same field and blowing the same exact call and using the same exact sound. It is entirely up to the coyote which they would go to and only they know why. The playing field will never be level.
Around here you have to make it good and goddamn interesting to get a coyote to respond. One can't just go out and blow a rabbit distress or howl twice and have them show. You have to howl, whimper, yip, gobble, cackle, gargle and sound like a friggin' kill-deer to get them loose and coming your way. I have to force these bastards to want to come in. They just don't come in for S&G's. I hate them, I hate them, IhatethemIhatethem,Iathe..............
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 21, 2007, 07:07 PM:
Leonard: "Iowa?
Wouldn't that be like having the Stanley Cup playoffs in Tahiti?"
--------------------------------
Very good point Leonard. It would be nice to meet a bunch of Huntmasters members at a campout, but it makes no sense to have a coyote callers campout in this desert of corn, soybeans and people. Coyote callers want to be in good coyote country, and Iowa ain't it.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 21, 2007, 07:23 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 21, 2007, 07:26 PM:
Hell LB, have it in Idaho, Scotts friend says its easy to call coyotes here............LOL... in September maybe....LOL
Have it here in the south west corner and guys can hunt 3 states for one money. If between Jan 1 and August 1 its $29.50 for non-resident and Utah and Nevada don't cost anything.
How about March, its real easy to call them in then...........LOL
BTW that hit it on the head Cal, well said sir.
sly
P.S. I smell smoke
[ March 21, 2007, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 22, 2007, 07:33 AM:
Sly:You and all of your yes men jumped on me over my thoughts
Yes men my ass Sly,it has nothing to do with agreeing with Scott.It has to do with disagreeing with your assesment of what the sound(estrus chirp) means to a coyote,and you trying to tell us YOU know what it means and why the coyote responds to the sound.Because YOU DON'T.And to spin it any other way is BullS***.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 22, 2007, 09:36 AM:
Chad, Chad, Chad,
I never told you anything, I simply said that was my thoughts and you took it from there. So save your smug remarks and defencive responces for someone else.
Shairing ones thoughts is not a crime nor does it require all this debate. Simply disagree and go on with your life.
You have no scirntific backing to your claim that My thoughts are wrong, and from what I see you refused an opertunity to try the sound when Ronnie offered it. So here again you are talking from inexpirence (With this sound) and I'm talking from my personal expieriance (With this sound). Apples and watermelons.
Grandpa always said the guilty dog barks the loudest,
He also said there are none so blind as those who will not see.
sly
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 22, 2007, 11:12 AM:
Sly:Chad, Chad, Chad,
I never told you anything, I simply said that was my thoughts and you took it from there. So save your smug remarks and defencive responces for someone else.
Ok I'll bite,who were you speaking of when you say Scott's yes men then?lol
Sly:So here again you are talking from inexpirence (With this sound) and I'm talking from my personal expieriance (With this sound). Apples and watermelons
Depends on what you mean when you say experience with the sound.
If you mean that you have made this "sound" with a call and brought coyotes running for the purpose of breeding you're right you have way more experience than me.lol
But if you mean hearing "a coyote" make a sound Peep/Yip during the breeding season and really have no idea what it meant,I beg to differ.
tlbradford did a little researching from past posts and found where I made mention to "a sound" that I had heard made by coyotes over 4 years ago.Do I think I know what it means or why a coyote would react to the said sound? NO and neither do you.
If you care to take a look if you haven't already it's called:How do you Vary your howls during mating season.
What's funny is you blew through it then and didn't even give it a second thought.lol
Good Hunting Chad
[ March 22, 2007, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 22, 2007, 01:23 PM:
UTcaller:"Now the female made what at first sounded like short peeps/yips not howls. I've heard it before but only during the mating season."
There it is in black and white. He mentions nothing about what it means or claims to. Another man that sticks to his guns. I applaud that!
Yes, Chad. Uh, yes, Chad. Chad, yes. okay sure the answer is yes Chad. Yes Chad that's fine.
[ March 22, 2007, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 22, 2007, 05:21 PM:
I think the whole argument on whether or not the so-called "estrus chirp" is properly named, is going to go on for a while. You can take the sound and apply it however you want to your hunting or not at all. I sincerely hope that the first name of a sound does not bias anyone's judgment on whether it is a viable sound to use. Ronnie has been using it, and Sly has as well. They are using a specific sound and have had good results. Sly's data shows some very interesting results. Everything he has posted on this sound is an informed opinion based on the information he has collected. Anyone who has ever tried to prove a theory has started with an idea, and tested it out. Sly is in the testing period, and does not care which way the data points him.
Ronnie came up with an informed opinion when naming the sound. He heard it from a single coyote in which one was in heat. It was heard during the mating season. He recreated the sound he heard from his vantage point. We live in the good ol' USA where capatilism is alive and kicking. Lohman wanted to be the first to get a call on the market which advertises a "new" sound. This is good business strategy. It is up to us, as students of coyote behavior, to prove or disprove when this sound is used, how it is used, and how it can be applied to increase our hunting pleasure.
Like Randy said, don't be afraid to posts an idea, because you don't want it to be attacked. This is how the whole process works. The fact that people have such strong opinions one way or another must mean that there is something to this sound.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 22, 2007, 05:43 PM:
tlbradford:Sly is in the testing period, and does not care which way the data points him.
Are you kidding?With his VERY limited experience with the sound he has drawn alot of conclusions to what the "sound is"," it sounds like" and "means to a coyote".That doesn't sound like not caring which way the data leads to me.
tlbradford:Like Randy said, don't be afraid to posts an idea, because you don't want it to be attacked. This is how the whole process works. The fact that people have such strong opinions one way or another must mean that there is something to this sound
Or it could be that you have drawn a false conclusion and people that are experienced in coyote vocalizations and behavior call you on it and don't want people to be misled with a faulty new theory.Could go either way right?
Again like I have said from the beginning,I am not saying "a sound" doesn't exist,I'm saying basing alot of so called conclusions on the very limited experience is misleading.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 22, 2007, 10:49 PM:
ut: Are you kidding?With his VERY limited experience with the sound he has drawn alot of conclusions to what the "sound is"," it sounds like" and "means to a coyote".That doesn't sound like not caring which way the data leads to me.
This is called a theory. Here let me give you an example: Columbus: I believe the world is round. All his buddies: The world is flat everyone knows that. What are you basing this on? Colombus: My observations. His buddies: Thats it, until you prove it we won't believe it.
Sly has not said these are his conclusions. These are his ideas.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 23, 2007, 06:37 AM:
From the last thread..........
Sly: "Should I question your ability because of one hunt that I wasn't present for? Should I question your ability because you weren't consistant with what you claim? Should I bring to question your ability with the little amount of information I have?
I don't think so but you do it all the time."
SH (in response): this is exactly where I take issue with you.
You claim "I do it all the time" but you can't back the allegation with even one actual quote. You just think readers will blindly follow your interpretation of events without thinking for themselves and assume you are correct. I give readers a lot more credit than you obviously do.
BRING ME ONE QUOTE WHERE I JUDGED THE RESULTS OF A HUNT OF YOURS.
You won't because it didn't happen.
BRING ME THE QUOTE WHERE I STATED I KILL COYOTES ON 50% OF MY STANDS ON EVERY HUNT I MAKE.
You won't because it didn't happen.
BRING ME THE QUOTE WHERE I QUESTIONED YOUR ABILITIES AS A HUNTER.
You won't because it didn't happen.
But you'd sure like readers to believe it happened wouldn't you?
To the contary, you just did that very thing to me on the topic of long range shooting when you mentioned my "limitations".
That is what is called, "CREATING AN ILLUSION" and I'm not going to stand for it.
Sly: "You do this to others all the time, you have done this to me on several ocasions without all the information, just drawing your own conclusions and then making rather pissy comments. Its different when the shoe is on the other foot, ain't it Scott."
SH (in response)Bring the quotes Sly! Bring it! I'm calling your bluff.
Now how will it be Sly? Let's weigh your options:
1. You can come clean and admit it never happened once let alone several times.
2. You can provide the quote or quotes and back your position.
3. You can divert and claim you don't have time for "school yard games".
4. Or you can claim that I edited those "so called" pissy responses out of my posts which would be a lie.
Hmmmm??? The suspense is killing me.....
~end of previous post!
Now,
Did anyone see Sly back his claim that I judged his percentages?
Did anyone see where Sly brought my quote where I claimed I killed coyotes on 50% of my stands?
Did anyone see where I questioned Sly's abilities as a hunter?
Neither did I!
Do you see the problem here? I certainly do. It's one of two things, either Sly is being deceptive in trying to create an illusion of what I stated or he simply cannot comprehend what he is reading. Sly misinterprets my statements and takes them out of context then accuses me of doing exactly that.
Sly doesn't want to back his claims, he wants to create an "ILLUSION" of my statements to divert attention from his inability to back his claims.
That's why he followed my questions with more generalizing statements instead of answers and
backing his claims that I "DO IT TO OTHERS ALL THE TIME".
Sly, at the very least you are deceptive. You claim I "do it all the time" but when called on it, you can't provide a single quote to back your claim.
Let me help you out here because you are only digging yourself deeper. Don't make a claim that you can't back. Tell the truth! It's that simple.
Your latest string of generalizing statements.....
Sly: "It has come down to your opinion vers mine. Your opinion is based on your expieriance without knowledge of the sound or its application."
Sly,
You try to claim some above normal knowledge base on this sound but here is the cards you have already laid on the table:
1. You claim to have only heard this sound one time if I remember correctly.
2. The guys who have discussed this sound cannot agree on what it is supposed to sound like
3. You admit that you don't know the reason they respond but you believe it's for sex and instinctual.
4. You don't know what coyotes are hearing when they hear your duplication of this sound.
THOSE ARE YOUR CARDS SLY! You can't try to deceive readers into believing there is some incredible knowledge base out there surrounding this sound. You don't know much more about it than I do. You only know that you make the sound and they respond but by your own admission, you don't know why.
You know what I think Sly, I think you want to pretend this is some revolutionary sound so you can sell more calls, that's what I think.
On the other hand, I have no biases besides solid information.
Sly: "You have stated that I have mislead the reader with misleading information and have done so on many ocations, show me without taking a sentence out of a paragraph{we all know that can change the meaning}where I made any STATMENTS."
I just did!
You asked if you should question my ability because I "SUPPOSEDLY" wasn't consistant with what I claimed (calling coyotes on 50% of my stands and killing 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to).
I never said that I kill coyotes on 50% of my stands or that I kill 50% of the coyotes that I see that I have access to. I SAID I AM DISAPPOINTED WHEN I DON'T MEET THOSE GOALS DURING CONTEST HUNTS.
Here (your above statement) is where you deceptively tried to accuse me of something I never said. You can't prove otherwise which is precisely why you resorted back to "grandstanding" with empty statements.
Sly: "Your inability to disprove my thoughts through debate has caused you to change the issue from the validity of a sound to a personal attack on my abilitys and knowledge."
Bring the personal attack on your abilities and knowledge Sly. BRING THE QUOTES! You won't because it didn't happen. It's your insecurities working overtime again.
Sly: "You sir have to much time on your hands waiting for the phone to ring.........LOL.."
Yet another lie! See how you are?
Just because I unfortunately happened to be home when you called you try to make an implication that this is the norm. That's how deceptive you become when your insecurities are in overdrive.
I'm surprised you don't already know how this week went for me and TA .17 via your moccasin telegram. Let me give you a rundown. First educated crippled old male coyote shot a 352 yards in a quartering 10 mph wind. Second calf killing old bred female coyote shot downwind at 250 yards. Third educated male coyote shot in 10 mph broadside wind at 323 yards. 15 coyotes shot by aerial hunting 5 ranches between 7:00AM and 1:30PM. Those are the only 3 shots I fired this week. Our coyote population is less than 50% of what it once was.
Sly: "I on the other hand don't have that much time to spend going back to read what You and I have written so I can play your game of cut and past."
Of course you don't. In other words, you don't have time to back your smack just as I figured.
All foam and no beer!
Sly: "You thrive on the fight and loose track of what you are fighting over. First it was the name and its implications, then it was the concept,then it was that I was misleading the reader, then it was that it was for profit, then it was about my ability to handle coyotes and so on and so on. Face it Scott, you like to argue."
You won't find any inconsistancies Sly because, unlike you, I stop and think about what I write so I don't have to backpeddle later. I haven't changed my views with the "estrous chirp" and it's applications WHICH IS THE CONCEPT. You are misleading readers into believing you know why coyotes respond (for sex) when you admit that you don't know why they are responding. I never mentioned profit until this thread. Never said anything about your ability to handle coyotes, I said "show me a man that CONSISTANTLY kills long range coyotes and I'll show you a man that can't handle coyotes".
Now, will you try to spin that into my 3 recent shots? That's not the norm for me. Normally I do find a direction and a sound that will give me a decent shot. These coyotes are squirrelier than they have ever been due to all the coyote calling contests but I can go to areas where their response will be totally different hence the word "CONSISTANTLY". Once again, words mean things.
Sly: "You have an explanation for everything you say and that explanation changes as needed to validate what you say. You are very carfull to say things without realy saying them and you are very good at it. You write " words mean things" and you are right, words out of context mean other things and you know that and you are a master at munipulating those words."
Show me where an explantion changed. Bring the quote!
I am careful to say things without really saying them.....ahh......ok? If that makes sense to you?
Show everyone where I took a statement of yours out of context or manipulated those words. THAT'S PRECISELY WHY I RESPOND DIRECTLY TO A QUOTE SO YOU CANNOT ACCUSE ME OF WHAT YOU JUST ACCUSED ME OF.
It's spin! Diversion! It's like Bill Clinton lobbing a missle into a medical facility to divert attention from the Lewinsky scandal.
Sly: "I on the other hand am not, I just have to say what I think and go from there."
To the contrary, you say what you want others to think and go from there. That's why you can't back your smack with actual quotes.
Sly: "You and all of your yes men jumped on me over my thoughts and when one person from Idaho, that was not solisited by the way, posts something to you about the fact that he is tired of your crap, you turn that into another dig on me."
Who are my "yes men" Sly? There's more SMACK you can't BACK.
I don't care if an Idaho cheerleader is tired of my crap. That was his first post. HOW TELLING!
Sly: "I want this on the reccord Scott, I'm in no way backing down from you! Not now, not ever,..."
I know Sly! I fully expect more empty statements and allegations with no quotes to support them. More foam and no beer.
Sly: "Also I never said: this sound is or will ever be better than sounds we already commonly use,:lipsqueek, KIYI, Rabbit and so on. YOU DID THAT SCOTT, not me.
followed by...
Sly: "I do think it is a sound that will add to the overall ability of coyote hunters everywhere to increse their numbers."
Ok Sly, to be fair to you, I will assume that this is the first time you stated that this sound will increase your numbers after just saying that you didn't say it was any better than any sound that is currently already out there which would have been another contradiction if you had. If I wanted to manipulate as you accuse me of, I would have shown these statements as contradictory but this might be the first time you said you believed the sound would increase a hunter's percentages which is what most guys would say that are selling the sound. Now if you are equally fair to me, you will realize that this is the first time, if my memory serves me correctly (40 mg Lipator daily), that I mentioned commercialization of the sound.
I didn't say you said the "estrous chirp" would be better than existing sounds, "I" said "I"
highly doubted it would be better than existing sounds because I've heard 3 versions of it now and they all sound different. Here is another example of your comprehension problem, nowhere did I say that you did say it would be better than existing sounds. I KNOW IT WAS ME THAT SAID THAT.
Sly: "It started out as a good debate and much good has come from it. Unfortunatly it has changed its corse and has become personal, this changes the makup of the debate and floods this board with crap that serves no purpouse. I apoligise to the readers for allowing myself to be draged into a sh** slinging affair and loose track of what is important, "The Sound" and its effectiveness."
You made it personal when your insecurities took over with your "HOW DARE ANYONE CHALLENGE ME ON MY THEORIES BY GAWD" attitude. You made it more personal when you started accusing me of saying things I never said and diverted having to back those statements. If you want to apologize you should apologize readers for misleading them about the contents of my posts which I have addressed very clearly in my last few responses to you.
Sly: "Last but not least, Thanks Scott for helping to fule the fire and get people to talking about this sound and trying it for themselfs."
Your welcome. As Cal Taylor has pointed out, the reason this forum is so much better than the others is because it hasn't become a bunch of hand holders and head nodders. If there is one thing I can't stand it's when some "latest and greatest" (NOT YOU SLY) says something and all the little lemmings nod their heads like horses fighting face flies without stopping to think what has been said.
You have a wonderful day Sly and make sure you can back your statements before you make them so you don't have to grandstand with more empty statements to divert having to back what you said the last time.
~SH~
[ March 23, 2007, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by horndog (Member # 1214) on March 23, 2007, 06:39 AM:
Until someone can talk to the animals and get a response telling us what things mean,all we can do is try sounds and guess what they do or don't tell us.I think that is the best anyone of you can do at this point.To bash a man for thinking is wrong,because that is all,all of us are doing. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 23, 2007, 06:58 AM:
horndog,
Sly is not being "BASHED" for a theory, he's being questioned. He doesn't like being questioned because it clearly revealed that he doesn't know why coyotes are responding and he doesn't know whether this sound is any better than another sound out there.
Considering the many empty allegations that Sly has thrown out at me without backing the smack, I could say that I'm being "BASHED" for questioning his theories.
If Ronnie, Sly, and Rich Higgins could all agree what this sound is supposed to sound like and we could get a recording of it, I would be the first to try it on my WT. If my results were piss poor, should I spare everyone's feelings that wants to believe they have come up with the silver bullet or should I tell the damn truth?
tlbradford,
Thank God Columbus challenged the theory of all his buddies huh?
The important thing is that Columbus thought for himself instead of nodding his head like a horse fighting face flies when his buddies told him the world was flat.
~SH~
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 23, 2007, 08:53 AM:
quote:
Thank God Columbus challenged the theory of all his buddies huh?
LOL, yes and I am sure they got just as heated.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on March 23, 2007, 09:25 AM:
On the subject of challenging what is "known" the facts are that neither the church nor any educated people in the days of Columbus believed that the earth was flat. That is a deliberate fiction perpetrated at the beginning of the 1900's by Ivy League academics. Both ends of that statement (belief in a spherical earth in the 1400's and the fraud) can be fully documented and have been. "Victory of Reason" by U. Washington prof. Rodney Stark, is one source for that.
Columbus believed in a small earth only 8,000 miles around. The big argument he had with educated people of his day was how big the earth was, and Columbus was wrong. They told him he would starve before getting to Asia. If the American continent hadn't been there he would never have survived long enough to reach Asia. His belief in a small earth also explains why he was so stubbornly sure he'd reached Asia.
Better to be lucky...
Just FWIW tidbid. And a reminder to me to be wary of received knowledge.
I've no dog in this discussion of why coyotes respond to certain sounds. Yet as much as I can, I also like to know what I'm saying to a critter and why he is responding, but we're not always sure. I'm just glad they respond. Calling critters is my lifelong hobby, and I've called more than 30 species not counting any waterfowl. Some times they appear to come because they are simply curious, especially smart critters like coyotes, and extra dumb ones like caribou. Our calling vocabulary consists of: food, fight, sex, maybe comfort, and "I wonder what's making that noise?"
[ March 23, 2007, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on March 23, 2007, 10:10 AM:
I knew that would get harpooned by someone. It was a tongue in cheek thing, to just give a quick example.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on March 23, 2007, 10:45 AM:
Ouch! No harpoon intended. I'm heading out for a few days so will check to see if there are any stuck in me on my return. Good hunting.
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