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Author
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Topic: They acted like pussies
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted March 06, 2007 06:33 AM
Those with experience, your thoughts please.
Went back out and made a couple of stands Sunday evening and whacked another one.
Yesterday was beautiful, so I headed out after work to make another stand.
Had to drive a little further than I wanted to get to a spot where the wind and sun were right.
My coyotes have been coming from thick mesquite pastures right now, so this is where I went. I used an ecaller and placed it to help position the coyote for a 50-60 yard shot in a clearing. I am tucked into a mesquite on the side of a rise in the shade with the sun at my back and a lite breeze in my face. I got the Jack Russell with me cause he likes to go.
Anyway I start calling and in a couple minutes I see a pack of four headed towards me about 400 yards out as they pass single file thru a small clearing. I turn the volume way down and wait for them to come on in. I pick up flashes of fur as they make there way to thru the mesquites. The Jack Russell has seen them and is getting exited.
They approach within 30 yards of the clearing - about 80 yards from me, 120 yards form the call and in cover too thick to shoot thru. They stop and as I can’t see them real well, I have to assume they are watching the dog. He make a run at the coyotes in the thicket, I tune him back with the training collar. He returns about half way and starts to whine at the coyotes.
They stay in the same area and just mill around. He makes another run at them. I tune him back.
This scenario repeats several more times, with the coyotes never clearing the brush, then the coyotes head back the way they came.
I see them cross the same little clearing way out there.
They don’t try and circle to get the rabbit on the other side of the dog. They just eased out like didn’t have a care in the world.
I am very confident they did not see me and don’t know how they could have got my scent as the breeze was in my face and. they never got close to the area I approached from.
Had a hell of a fun time even thou I never fired a shot. I look at watch on my gun and seventeen minutes has passed.
This is the first group of three or more group I have called in this year in Oklahoma.
I speculate one of them was a hot bitch.
My question is why you think that four coyotes would not challenge a little JR?
Regards
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 06, 2007 09:53 AM
Kelly,
Because they obviously had no reason to. Unless you are near a den site or dealing with a territorial pair of adult coyotes, dogs will cost you more coyotes than they will gain you.
Decoy dogs are a denning tool, not a recreational fur harvesting tool.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted March 06, 2007 10:15 AM
I was wondering what the dog was for as well. Then I reread and you said 'He likes to go.'
I personally, have never used a dog while calling, and will probably never use a dog or have one with me. Personal choice I guess.
Why give them a rabbit sound only to find a dog at the end of it? Would they have come closer if the dog had not been there? More than likely. They were probably suspicious when the meal they were after turned out to bark instead of squeal and was aggressive instead of writhing in pain.
My suggestion would be to not use prey distress sounds if you have a dog next to you.
I am talking from a position of inexperience with the use of dogs, so let me know if I am off base.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 06, 2007 10:30 AM
Okay, I took my redbone hunting once. She did two memorable things. First she chased off three coyotes and blocked me out from taking a decent shot.
Then, when I left her in the cab, on my next stand, she locked the damned door on me and I had to break in, with her "helping" me.
Just say no.
Good hunting. LB
edit: my concept of calling a coyote(s) to a stand with rabbit distress. The coyote sees the dog, and figures the dog is killing a rabbit, and probably has eaten most of it. Find something else to do.....
[ March 06, 2007, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 06, 2007 10:35 AM
Scott, why would those 4 coyotes be sceered of a little Jack Russel when I've seen them try to get bigger dogs around the house? My cousin's young Rottweiler was standing at the edge of the road with a coyote on the other side trying to bait him over, when my cousin hit them with the spotlight there was at least 2 more just past the fence waiting for him.
My thinking, however flawed, would be they see the little dog and relate it to the screaming rabbit and think 2 meals in one.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 06, 2007 10:46 AM
Only valid sometimes, Tom. Don't know the reason, but in the event you describe, it wasn't a hunting stand. Sometimes they are spooked by any size dog, and other times, they want to eat it, or kick it's ass. Color of the dog plays some part, on occasion.
Good hunting. LB
edit: my grandson has a Rotweiler that could probably handle three coyotes? On the other hand, he had his ass handed to him when he jumped into a yard with four pitbulls in it.
[ March 06, 2007, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 06, 2007 11:05 AM
Tom 64: "Scott, why would those 4 coyotes be sceered of a little Jack Russel when I've seen them try to get bigger dogs around the house?"
No two coyotes are the same in every situation.
There is so many variables to this Tom!
You have timid dogs and timid coyotes. You have aggressive coyotes and timid dogs. You have aggressive dogs and timid coyotes. You have agressive dogs and agressive coyotes.
Each dog/coyote combination will give you a different result.
Then you have different aged coyotes and different times of the year will also create different responses.
Every coyote is an individual and they each have a different level of curiousity and caution based on their previous life's experiences.
I can't possibly tell you why those particular coyotes would shy from the dog but I'll give you a couple good guesses. Their last assocation with any dog might have involved a human which created a less than desirable experience for them. Perhaps they were chased by bigger dogs and realized that it's not the dog in the fight but rather the fight in the dog.
Trust me, it happens! Hell a yapping poodle can tree a mountain lion under the right circumstances then the next poodle will become a lion turd.
You can have a weiner dog that will run a young set of coyotes off and the next time he'll run into an adult pair of coyotes that will eat his lunch.
No two situations are exactly the same. It's a conditioned response.
If you put a dog near a denning pair of coyotes in June, very few coyotes won't work the dogs.
If you put a dog near a timid pup during the fall, very few coyotes won't run from a dog of any size.
~SH~
[ March 06, 2007, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted March 06, 2007 12:18 PM
Scott – thx for your reply and I agree with everything you said, except it being obvious as to why. I guess that has everything to do with my lack of understanding coyote behavior and all the variables involved.
I have had pairs act aggressive when they saw the dog. I have also had a few singles act the same. (when I say singles, that does not mean their mate was not a just a short distant away – I mean they approached as singles)
He has only run a couple off before yesterday and they sure enough left right now. They did not hang around like these did. I do think the coyotes hung up yesterday because of the dog. I also know that usually when a coyote gets within 80 yards of me they are in serious trouble……….
I am pretty certain without him I would have killed one or two of those yesterday, but I would have thought that 4 coyotes would view the JR as pretty easy prey/and or something they could kill cause it was there. Not always so and that was “obvious”.
Leonard – the JR has locked me out twice when I left him in the truck to make stands for cats………but I always have a hide out key on the frame.
Smithers – I don’t take the dog all the time, but I do like to watch the coyote’s reaction when one sees him. I also like having him there because the little shit loves to go and he makes me smile.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 06, 2007 12:39 PM
Scott, I wondered if it had to do with attitude. Seen alot of different responses when training bird dogs and crossing a coyote. I think they read body language and attitude (even between coyotes) just as we can tell when a dog is friendly or not.
Kelly, I guess you need to turn up his "tuner" and make happy Jack look more like a happy meal. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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canine
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Member # 687
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posted March 06, 2007 03:06 PM
My experience today was, my dog was the pussy ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . I have been calling in alot of pairs lately that are putting on some real good show's...so..I took the ol'ladies Pomeranian with me today. Around the house and in the yard this boy isn't scared of shit, call in 2 coyotes within 100 yards and he hides behind me ![[Confused]](confused.gif) . The male of the pair showed that he wanted to approach but reluctantley didn't.
I will definately have a trained dog come next winter! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
How long did you have in training your dog Kelly?
JD
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Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
Posts: 162 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2005
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted March 06, 2007 03:59 PM
Kelly, are you saying that your JRT kept 4 coyotes occupied for 17 minutes all within 80yds of the gun?
If so it sounds to me like your dog did just what he was supposed to after all that poor JRT can`t control the fact that they stopped in a place where you couldn`t shoot & I`m sure the coyotes didn`t know any better either. I know I`m pleased when my dogs produce a standing target that is oblivious to my presence, which is normally how it goes.
Sounds like a hell of a deal to me of course I hunt with dogs regularly so I don`t put a whole lot of stock in the opinions of those who don`t for whatever reason, no offense intended, naysayers.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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csmithers
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posted March 06, 2007 04:51 PM
quote:
Sounds like a hell of a deal to me of course I hunt with dogs regularly so I don`t put a whole lot of stock in the opinions of those who don`t for whatever reason, no offense intended, naysayers.
Touche! JD
They held for 17 minutes but none ended up dead!
Kelly, I'm happy that you and your companion get a kick out of being in the field together. The few times that I venture out with a human companion, I sometimes wish they were a dog. I would probably have a better chance of the dog listening to me when I say, SIT STILL!
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted March 06, 2007 05:10 PM
No offense taken, JD and No offence meant, but....
When I go calling, I try to set everything up in my favor. Just like Kelly mentioned, I want the winds, sun and terrain all in my favor.
If I go though all of the trouble to get those things working for me, then why in the hell would I want to take a dog, that as fun as he may be to watch, outside of denning season, will screw up a hell of a lot more stands than not.
Kelly's dog didn't do his job, if he did, then Kelly would have at least been able to take a shot. With out the dog there, those coyotes would have most likely come in to the call, giving him at least one shot. As it was, they saw the dog, and held up in the brush where he couldn't shoot.
What good is a decoy if it doesn't put the coyotes into a shootable location? If your decoy only scares off 1/3 of the coyotes that you call in, aren't you just making things worse to use him at all?
If you want to call coyotes, leave the dog at home, if you want to go out and have fun with the dog, then you'd might as well leave the rifle at home. Fur season coyotes and dogs go together like oil and water, don't try to mix them, it won't work.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 06, 2007 05:39 PM
There is a situation where decoy dogs can be effective year round and that is if you have a stock dog that is highly trained like a robot that you can send and stop anywhere you want. Also if you have open terrain where you can totally read the coyotes. If the timid coyotes are coming from the North, you send your dog South over a hill or send him South and drop him with the whistle command. This can put those timid coyotes in your lap while their focus is on the dog.
A dog just running around and chasing coyotes? Tim is right, most times it will cost you coyotes. Had a friend of mine that was so proud of a little dog he had that would bring those timid coyotes back to him until he ran into an adult pair that tore the dog to shreds. Not a very good way to treat your pet.
I had 5 or 6 adult coyotes hit my 60 lb. cur one day. By the time I was done shooting I had either 4 or 5 laying down. I had a terrible time getting my first shot off as they tore into him from both sides. I finally shot into a blur of coyote fur and started picking them off one by one. When I got to my dog they had ripped his hind leg, ripped his sports sack, ripped his ear, and had injured his legs to where he walked with a limp for awhile. I never let my dogs get out of my sight.
The ideal setup is to have one dog on a leash and another roaming dog that is controlable.
Rolling the dice and playing the odds, I wouldn't recommend it for fur harvesting even under the best situations. It's simply a denning tool, not a fur harvesting tool.
~SH~
[ March 06, 2007, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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2dogs
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posted March 06, 2007 05:46 PM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 06, 2007 05:53 PM
I am sort of in the camp where I'd just as soon leave the dog at home, hunting coyotes.
Higgins has a couple dogs that are well trained, I'd call them more of a plus than a negative, that is; if you don't mind the snot nosed windows and all the dog hair in your rig.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 06, 2007 06:40 PM
Sorry if I mislead. The total stand was 17 minutes. They came pretty fast and were within 80 yards for maybe 10 minutes. Most of the time I will get a shot at these…..I think the coyotes now have moved to the thick mesquites to avoid the greyhound boys.
Tim B. – I do not lose 1/3 of the coyotes I call due to the dog. If I did he damn sure would not be welcome to go. I have probably took 25-30 coyotes while the dog was there this year. Only had two bug out. One of them my partner could have killed easy, but I was trying to film and he wait on the shot. So here in my area it has not been a deterrent.
Now with that being said, if I wanted to kill every coyote I call I would leave the dog at home. I just get too much of a kick out of watching the coyotes react when they see him...
Honesty 70% never seen him before they were laying on the ground.
Like Scott said if it is open and I can watch the show I let them play. If not I kill the coyote.
Leonard - you are right about the nose print and the hair. Not for everybody, but as I type this Bean is standing here with his squeaky squirrel wanting to play………I just like taking him.
JD – not long. When I started he was a little gun shy. I would just take him on walks and take my blank pistol. I would sit down and let him to what he wanted and tune him back just like I was calling. If deer came by I let him run them aways and them tune him back in. Same with armadillos. I would shoot the pistol and then call him in and give him a treat and some affection. He has treed several coons in the daytime this year. I got some real good film of one big bore coon he treed on a crosstie corner post just before dark one evening. He killed a smaller coon he caught on the ground and fought a bigger one to a draw. They were both give out. I snapped him on the leash before he vapor locked.
The coon just slowly walked away, with him wanting to get back in the fight.
Smithers – I got good hunting partners. They don’t mind the dog. If need be I can make him sit still right beside me.
2dogs – who knows why for sure……….that why I asked.
Thanks for the input I do appreciate it.
Kelly
edited to say........I NEVER let him out of my sght. i think too much of him to let him tangle with an agressive coyote.
[ March 06, 2007, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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coyotehombre
PAKMAN
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posted March 06, 2007 06:46 PM
Now see most of you are against dogs. But I know guys that use them year round and swear by em. I have also seen their videos that attest to what they claim. How is it that it works for some but not others? Is it the dog, the hunter, the area?
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted March 06, 2007 06:46 PM
Kelly,
I've of the unwavering opinion that the only thing that can screw up a stand worse than a dog, is a camera.
That said, as long as you are having fun, who the hell cares?
Sounds like you had a hell of a good time out hunting with your little friend.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 06, 2007 07:01 PM
Thx Tim. If I get off in time I may go tomorrow....now Hold my beer and watch this.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted March 06, 2007 07:09 PM
quote:
if you don't mind the snot nosed windows and all the dog hair in your rig.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) Unfortunately, that is the price of having a hunting dog in the truck.
As far as whether or not he did his job well is hard to say as I was not there but to say that those coyotes would have come on in to an open spot if the dog wasn`t there is borderline ridiculous, you can`t know that by reading a post on the internet, we can take an educated guess but that`s it, even Kelly, who was there, said that he assumed that they were watching the dog as he couldn`t see for sure, maybe that`s the spot that they would have stopped if there hadn`t been a dog, who knows, "sometimes this shit just don`t work" even when you don`t have a dog.
How many of you guys called & killed 100% this year? besides Wiley ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I usually hunt open country & can see the coyotes for quite a ways off unless the grass is tall, my dog runs a little at first but usually ends up on a hill beside me sitting there watching the terrain as if he knows what is supposed to happen(they do that after a while). Many times he`ll spot the coyote before I do & go out to greet it, sometimes at 400yds sometimes at 150 yds ,or he`ll see one hanging up out a ways & go after it, he`ll woof & chase for a few yds & then turn & head back, sometimes having to watch his backside very closely, after a dozen or so episodes like that the dog is within 30 or so yds & the coyote is sometimes closer than that, I SHOOT the coyote because I don`t have any gawdamned mesquite blocking my view
Yes, sometimes young coyotes will hang up at 200-300yds when they see a dog, not all of them but a few, what I usually do if a coyote hangs up at a couple hundred yds is SHOOT the coyote because I don`t have any Gawdamned mesquite in the way.
Could I have killed those coyotes without a dog? most of them but many of them ended up in my lap, crossways, snarling & snapping at my dog. I`ll take a 30 yd broadside over a 200 yd quartering shot any day.
Dogs aint for everyone that`s for sure & when you first get started they won`t chase off a few coyotes they`ll chase off EVERY coyote, that`s the price, if your impatient don`t try it it aint for you. If your a contest hunter, don`t try it it aint for you. If that`s how I made my living I would leave the dogs for the most part for denning work. But if you enjoy dogs & really enjoy calling coyotes & have time on your hands then by all means get a dog & give it a try.
I would however suggest that you leave the wifes freakin chihuahua at home along with Pomeranians, poodles & any other cute fluffy pet that you think would make a good decoy, coyotes aren`t "usually" playing when they engage a dog. Although it does make for some entertaining posts when someone has to buy a new pet for their wife not to mention that I have a certain disdain for loud snappy little prick-type dogs anyway. Cats for bait/decoys is OK in my book though.
As much as I think it would do all you grumbly bastards some good to take the time to train a dog & enjoy your time in the field with him I also understand that some of you have a bad taste from previous experiences, it aint for everyone but I have serious reservations about some of the opinions about dogs that are presented as fact.
BTW...did I mention that we don`t have any Gawdamned mesquite around here.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 06, 2007 07:23 PM
no mesquite? What do the coyotes eat?
Hey, I'm not anti dog. They just don't fit with my type of predator hunting. If they did, I'd use them. If I had one, that is.
I will say this though. Night hunting. They sure come in handy, tracking a runner.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 06, 2007 07:38 PM
I don't own a dog, but I did just buy a full body mount of a coyote that I found on E bay. I have often wondered if maybe these Iowa coyotes would cross a little more wide open ground if they saw another coyote standing over there near the spot that they just heard the howl of a stranger. I guess maybe I will soon find out the answer to that question.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted March 06, 2007 07:44 PM
quote:
no mesquite? What do the coyotes eat?
Coyotes around here don`t eat, they just screw, that`s why we call exclusively with estrous chirps.
Man I wish we could use a rig at night like you guys do, if we could it would be my preferred method hands down. I love to night hunt & we can do it here but what a hassle to walk out to a stand in total darkness carrying lights & whatnot not mention the height advantage......you guys got it made.
And yes it would be nice to have a dog for tracking at night unfortunately with our limitations it just doesn`t work well to have a dog along after dark.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 06, 2007 07:46 PM
Always wanted a good coyote dog (whatever that is) but I remember reading an article years ago in a farm and ranch magazine I think, anyway this guy (proffesional ADC man) just sat on a hillside and howled. When he got an answer his big dog took off and played with the coyotes for a while then when the dog got tired and realized he was getting whipped he came running back to his master begging him to shoot the coyotes chasing him. He was asked how to train a dog to do that and he said they either learn real quick or it's time to get another dog.
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