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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2007, 02:08 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on February 27, 2007, 04:02 AM:
Tell us how the new decoy works ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2007, 04:55 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 27, 2007, 07:46 AM:
Was one of the dogs in heat?
If not, then it must not have been an "ESTROUS" chirp huh? LOL!
No doubt it would call coyotes. Excited canines make this sound all the time. The question is, would it call coyotes any better than a coyote distress, pup distress, rabbit distress?
Might be a good changeup for places and times where other calls have been abused.
~SH~
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2007, 08:20 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2007, 08:25 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 27, 2007, 09:36 AM:
Well here we go again.....LOL
Its like the old joke: whats the mateing call of a blond? "I'm so drunk"
What does a brunett say? "is the blond gone yet"
Its all in the perseption and since there is NO scientific backing either way, it is at this time, in how its percived. I and others like me aren't saying that "THIS IS HOW THE COYOTE IS THINKING", we are saying that this is how we percive this sound to work.
In trying to understand how a sound can evoke such strong responces from not just a single coyote but, "It seems" all coyotes within earshot. Because this sound works outside of the "Mateing Season" with almost the same responce as durring does bring up more questions.
I think its arrogant to dismiss it as a "SEX" sound just because they respond to it in Sept.
Coyotes don't have the ability to reason, IE: "That can't be a coyote making that sound, that only happens in late Feb. and March", they simply hear this sound and it trips a primevil trigger to breed and make pups. Thats their job, the main reason for being.
Why does the hole group respond? well I belive the males are comming for the sex... (thats how men think),,,LOL,,, the females are comming to defend their territorial boundrys ( don't want a strange bitch in her backyard ). Does that not make sence? The rest of the coyotes that are showing up "I THINK" are like the support group,( Backup if you will). None of this is ritten in stone but it makes sence if you think about it. I don't know for sure that thats what the coyotes are thinking But in trying to explain whats going on to others so they can apply this sound. I have to explain it so others can understand what "I BELIVE TO BE HAPPENING" when this sound is used.
Poke fun if you will, I frankly don't care, This is just one thought, just the thoughts of a vetran coyote hunter, trapper, depradation specialist who's spent most of his life in hot persuite of coyotes, Remember this is not just how I see whats going on. There are some others who may right better and have a better way with words that agree at least partly with this train of thought.
Now, Before you start ripping my "THOUGHTS" apart, remember,we are still learning, Myself included, about this sound and how it works.
Maybe I'm not expressing my thoughts in the right way as I'm not a righter, but like I have said many times now, Through this train of thought I'm trying to help others apply this sound and as NONE OF US KNOW what a coyote thinks, we have to put it into terms that man can understand and this is what I have tried to do from the start...........!!!!!
Sue me if you think I'm misleading people with this thought. This realy ticks me off, you are poking fun at people who are contributing what they are seeing and what they understand to be happening to help others learn and gain confidance in a sound that works. Point blank! Quite frankly I'm insulted by your snikering and poking fun at the "original Concept thinkers"as you put it. That sure never came from one of our mouths, nun of us ever said or implied that we had an original concept, JUST A SOUND THAT EVOKES RESPONCE...............................
Now I'm finished..!!!!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2007, 10:39 AM:
Sly.......ah, yes, you're a glutton for punishment. For sure. But, (surprise!) I admire that quality. Don't give up and don't back down. I don't know and I don't care who's right, but I do like to see the discussion and the ensuing debate.
Stand back, everybody.
Hell, it's probably all hugs and kisses, lately? Darn!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2007, 11:20 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 27, 2007, 11:56 AM:
Well,i'm not ashamed to say,i will back,Ronnie,Rich H,and Sly till hell freezes over on this subject.I know what i heard and know why the bitch coyote done it.She was excited and wanted bred.Oh!and don't try to argue with me because,i won't debate it.Why should i debate[argue]something i know with"know it alls"that know so little. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 27, 2007, 12:14 PM:
2dogs
I have been hunting coyotes for 37 years and untill last March I had never heard it or at least never recognised it as a coyote sound.
Untill last year I never payed any attention to this sound in my dogs either but I do now!
LB,
Yes, maybe you are right. I truly belive this sound to be valid and I will keep the path....How I inturprate this sound and relate it to others is all Scott is debating not the sound its self and I understand this. how I related it to the public makes sence and if you think about it, according to how "Man" thinks it works, since I don't know how a "coyote" thinks, all I have to go on is what I think and that is how I relate it to others.
The sound I'm using ain't the same as the sound bites that are going around and therefore not the same. The sound bites that I have heard, I belive to be "Excited Yips" and I don't think they are the same nor do they mean the same thing.
sly
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 27, 2007, 01:00 PM:
Sly,
Interesting Theory. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 27, 2007, 08:17 PM:
Is this thread going to be another 64 pager on the same subject? Not that it makes any difference to me. I could care less if you call coyotes by painting your ass purple & barking at the moon on the stroke of midnight.....whatever works.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 28, 2007, 05:19 AM:
quote:
Sly: "I have been hunting coyotes for 37 years and untill last March I had never heard it or at least never recognised it as a coyote sound."
So with that in mind, do you think you can tell the difference between the "excitement yip" of a coyote chasing prey and the "chirp" of a female coyote in heat?
1. Yes I can tell the difference.
2. No I cannot tell the difference.
Simple yes or no question!
If the answer is no, then how can you say............
quote:
Sly: "Why does the hole group respond? well I belive the males are comming for the sex... (thats how men think),,,LOL,,, the females are comming to defend their territorial boundrys ( don't want a strange bitch in her backyard )."
If the answer is no, then they could respond thinking there is something to kill. Right?
You want to go down the "sex" road to defend a concept that you want to believe. You admitted before that you didn't know why they respond and here you are again trying to tie their response to a sound you hadn't heard before last march, to sex.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHY THEY RESPOND SLY!
I don't care if you get ticked off. Misleading information ticks me off. Your opinion is no more valid than mine. I think it's misleading to assume to know why coyotes respond to this sound in particular.
Based on my 35 years of experience with 20 years of those year round predator control in association with many others who are also conducting year round predator control, I'll bet a coyotes' urge to kill is stronger than a coyote's urge to breed at most times of the year and I'll bet you can't tell the difference between the two sounds.
We know the term "estrous" is tied to breeding but these dogs are eliciting the same type of sound and they are fixed. How does that sit with your theory of the response being "sex" related.
Here's another thing for you to consider. We know that dogs and wolves can cross. We know that coyotes and dogs can cross. Let's say you have a female coyote in heat and a wolf comes across that female coyote. Now think hard about this Sly. Which wolf instinct do you think is stronger, the instinct to breed that coyote or the instinct to kill that coyote.
I know the answer, do you?
~SH~
[ February 28, 2007, 06:07 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 28, 2007, 05:57 AM:
Maybe the wolf would screw the coyote to death and then we would all be right!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 28, 2007, 06:05 AM:
"Which wolf instinct do you think is stronger, the instinct to breed that coyote or the instinct to kill that coyote."
============================
I know the answer to that question. Wolf would breed her first and THEN go on and kill her.
Now THAT'S funny right up there.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 28, 2007, 06:11 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 28, 2007, 06:12 AM:
Sly, I think you're letting your emotions cloud your thinking.
quote:
Poke fun if you will, I frankly don't care,
Followed by
quote:
This realy ticks me off, you are poking fun at people-- Quite frankly I'm insulted by your snikering and poking fun
Scott. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
"Original concept thinkers" are responsible for the 100+ sounds currently on e-callers rather than the two original standards, cottontail and jackrabbit.
Do you believe J.R. Alcorn was an "original concept thinker" and if so do you regard him with contempt also? lol
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 28, 2007, 07:13 AM:
2dogs,
Coyote is the official canis Latrans language in the midwest. Crossbreeds get confused and stutter a lot.
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 28, 2007, 07:39 AM:
LOL,Rich,When are you going to come out with the new stuttering howler
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 28, 2007, 10:14 AM:
Scott,
Here we go again with the cut and past war on words.
Yes I do think I can tell the difference as the two sounds are very different. I have heard the excited sounds of a coyote many huntreds of times but the one time I heard this "chirp" stands out in my mind vividly....
SH:Your opinion is no more valid than mine.
This is the key statement in your post, NO MORE VALID THAN MINE..... There is one difference between you and I, You play on peoples emotions. You insult people and then defend yourself with big words and back it with your cridentials, turn peoples words around and try to change their meanings to fit into your one way thinking... By using words like "MISLEADING", and by the way thats also just your "OPINION"and putting emphisis whare you want, you make what you think "SEEM" more valid than what others are thinking. What angers me is not your opinion, you have a right to that, you don't however have the right to belittle others to make yourself look good.
I don't have the ability to put into words my exact thoughts. I'm not a writer, nor am I a fool. I have said it MANY TIMES and I will say it once more. We all are learning. The way we learn is through what we see and expieriance.
This is what I know to be fact: In the 16 months that I have been aware of this sound, I have seen this sound used by a coyote 1 time, it was in fact a female. I have not witnessed a male make this sound, Fact. The female that made this sound evoked a responce from 2 different coyotes that Did fight when they approached this female,Fact. This sound was made by a female in March, fact. This female did show signs of being in heat,Fact.
The responces I've had from using this sound have produced 32 alpha males,9 alpha females, fact.(just coyotes killed) The responces from this sound have, not once evoked a responce from a SINGLE coyote, Fact. This sound has evoked responce from coyotes all times of year, Fact. This sound works on high pressured coyote populations, Fact. The sound that I'm using is different from a "Excited Yip", fact.( I do and can tell the difference) This sound works on coyotes that have made a positive ID on me and are leaving the country, FACT.
I can't explain why scientificaly, all I can do is explain why "I THINK" it works from my expieriance and thats what I've done. As you have STATED :" Your opinion is no more valid than mine.
I have to deduce from my expieriance in the field, what I belive to be going on and thats what I've done. So you don't agree, thats fine but don't belittle my observations and opinions to make yourself look good or justify your opinion.
Its aparent you take issue with the name that was given to this sound, once again I did not name this sound so quit making out like I did. After all many of the terms used to distinguish different sounds are misleading but thats the names thet were given them and thats how we sepperate them and identify the different sounds. Its just a name, lets not loose track of whats important, The sound and the responce it evokes.
There is a big difference between: I THINK AND I KNOW... I have said all along that I THINK this is whats going on. That is based on what I have seen, thats the ONLY FACT I have to go on {what I have seen).
You hate misleading information and "Your opinion is no more valid than mine".
Scott,: YOU DON'T KNOW WHY THEY RESPOND SLY!
At this time no one does and I only said: (ONCE AGAIN) I think this is whats going on. Thats from my observations. Its just what I think is going on and untill you have scientific backing to prove your opinion is right and mine is wrong, show me the same courtisy that I have shown you.
I may not agree with your opinion but I respect it and weather you agree with me or not I think you should respect my opinion also. I have no issue with your opinion and in fact there is merrit in your thoughts and views. There is also merrit in my thoughts and views also and you know it.
All fact,in the coyote world was at one time just an idea or thought, recerch has proven many things that were at one time opinion. It has also dispelled many myths. Time will tell.
I have another coyote to peal and a shop to clean. Good day
sly
[ February 28, 2007, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: slydog ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 28, 2007, 10:56 AM:
Seems like we will not get a link for this mysterious sound?
In regards to cross breeding canines (I am not a lawyer) and damned sure, not a biologist, either!
I seem to recall that a mule is the result of a specific cross breed between a horse and a donkey/burro, in which the male is the non horse.
Therefore, because of polish logic, I postulate that any cross between wolf and coyote woud be a very lost and lonely female wolf, in estrus, and a very horny male coyote who, as all horny males are: would screw anything that moves. A week earlier, or a few days later, outside of the window of opportunity, the female wolf might act more like a black widow spider and eat the poor guy!
OR. maybe it could happen like when we hear about a female dog that nurses a litter of kittens? Could even be a domestic wolf and wild coyote? Crossed pups escape?
Hard to say, but there are a number of possibilities, including feral dogs flaring in for a one nighter.
Good hunting. LB
edited for spelling, please excuse
[ February 28, 2007, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 28, 2007, 11:01 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 28, 2007, 11:04 AM:
LB,
I have heard most of the sound bites that are floating around the internet and I have yet to hear one that sounds like what I whitnessed. To my knowledge no one has this sound recorded but I'm working on it as much as weather will allow.
I like your observations and you are funny as hell
sly
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 28, 2007, 11:40 AM:
quote:
Therefore, because of polish logic, I postulate that any cross between wolf and coyote woud be a very lost and lonely female wolf, in estrus, and a very horny male coyote
Because of the social dynamics involved in hybridization among wolves and coyotes biologists believe that the the most common match up would be a female coyote and a male wolf. Also I think it was Theberge that said no self respecting wolf bitch would stand still for a scrawny little coyote.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 28, 2007, 12:15 PM:
Maybe so, Higgins?
But, there are any number of rediculous combos involving large female dogs and small males. Are they concerned about what the neighbors will think, when desperate? Cats are smart enough to lie down when doing the Mambo. Hey! Think about your own real life experiences. Were you proud of every one? Did you ever push a long legged woman up against a wall and then realize the problem? What did you do about it?
Anyway, scientific guessing is a fact of life, isn't it? Very funny! I agree, Theberge's opinion is much more important than mine. Yeah, right!
Good hunting. LB
edit: would you please email me your phone number? Since I lost my cell phone, I'm a little handicapped.
[ February 28, 2007, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 28, 2007, 01:04 PM:
Sly,
Not to keep whipping a dead coyote over and over again.BUT,You bring up a very good point.
Sly:I have heard most of the sound bites that are floating around the internet and I have yet to hear one that sounds like what I whitnessed.
I hear quite a few people saying they're having incredible success with this "new Sound"(said estus chirp) yet no one seems to be able to agree what the sound should sound like.That raises RED FLAGS right there, if we as humans can't agree on what it should sound like, how in the HELL do you expect me to believe that you know what a coyote thinks the sound means.LOL
Bottom line:It might work but you really don't know why it works.It could be sex or it could be food,or maybe curiosity,hell maybe all three.
Don't worry I'm done,no more rantings from me.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 28, 2007, 01:32 PM:
As many of you know I build custom calls, Aftre working with "this sound" for over a year and comming up with a tone board that I feel produces that I know to be the "Estres Chirp", I hit the mark with a howler that hits the notes that I wanted. Now comes nameing it, This has been hard as there has been so much debate over the word "Estres", with much thought and at first nameing it "Lady D.I.E." I changed my mind and with much delight came up with a name that totaly depicts the essencs of the sound made by a female coyote.
I call it "Wileys Heat Peep" so let me know what you think.........
sly
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 28, 2007, 01:47 PM:
Hell, there are all kinds of possibilities...
Huber's Folly
Scotts' problem
Wiley E's "We don't know?"
Extreme nonprofessional sound device
Scott's Female Vibratory Organ
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 28, 2007, 03:14 PM:
Naw,that sounds like your giving credit to where credit is not due. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on February 28, 2007, 03:56 PM:
To go along with what Vic said in "one" of these threads, I think you should call it "the penile enticer" or maybe "the red rocket yipper"
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 28, 2007, 06:22 PM:
How about "The pocket Rocket Peerper"?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 28, 2007, 06:44 PM:
New Breakthrough! Hot off the press! The hot new Slydog Yiper for yippers!
Yip em right in with the Slydog yiper--
Yip on in with yipes.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 28, 2007, 07:38 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 28, 2007, 07:43 PM:
I can't tell what that is? Indistinct blob. But I have seen wolf tracks. They are more than twice as large as coyote, maybe four times?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 28, 2007, 07:49 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 28, 2007, 07:59 PM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 28, 2007, 08:01 PM:
2dogs,i strained my eyes to see that! Whatever it is,it don't look any bigger than a nit on a nats ass.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 28, 2007, 08:37 PM:
quote:
RH: "Do you believe J.R. Alcorn was an "original concept thinker" and if so do you regard him with contempt also?"
I don't know J.R. Alcorn so can't comment on that Rich.
I am not critical of anyone stepping outside of the normal realm of "mindless traditionalism" in search of new sounds. If I was, I wouldn't have bought a WT would I? Once again, actions speak louder than words.
I am only critical of the theories that are derived from stepping outside this realm that defy what I have seen and what I have learned.
Ironically, the WT holds some of the most unique and innovative sounds out there and I haven't seen that they work any better than what I have been using. Keep in mind that I get to observe coyotes from beginning to end. You can't make that claim in your habitat. You get to see them standing there once they arrive. I get to see what reels them in BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT DOESN'T. I consider my more open situation advantagious to observing the reaction of coyotes to various sounds.
On this topic we have 2 areas of speculation.
#1 Are we duplicating the sound we want to duplicate to the point that a coyote recognizes the duplication as it was intended?
That's a big leap of faith.
A coyote that hears someone's imitation of an "estrous chirp" might easily mistake it for something else which is more attractive.
#2 Does the coyote respond because he recognizes this exact duplication or because it sounds close to something else that's attractive.
That's an even bigger leap of faith.
quote:
RH: "Because of the social dynamics involved in hybridization among wolves and coyotes biologists believe that the the most common match up would be a female coyote and a male wolf. Also I think it was Theberge that said no self respecting wolf bitch would stand still for a scrawny little coyote."
So my common sense question to these biologists is, WHERE'S THE HYBRIDS????
quote:
Sly: "You insult people and then defend yourself with big words and back it with your cridentials, turn peoples words around and try to change their meanings to fit into your one way thinking."
In this case, I insult SOME people by challenging their theories as to why coyotes respond to certain sounds. So be it!
I really get tired of talking about the shape of the table as opposed to what's been brought to the table.
In regards to "turning people's words around" and "trying to change their meanings", Sly, that is utter nonsense.
If you really believe that, BACK IT UP! Bring the quote and show everyone where I have "turned words around" or "changed their meanings". The posts are all still there.
Observe........
I respond to direct quotes. Pretty difficult to take a statement out of context when you respond directly to an exact statement which is precisely why I do it.
quote:
Sly: "This is what I know to be fact: In the 16 months that I have been aware of this sound, I have seen this sound used by a coyote 1 time, it was in fact a female. I have not witnessed a male make this sound, Fact. The female that made this sound evoked a responce from 2 different coyotes that Did fight when they approached this female,Fact. This sound was made by a female in March, fact. This female did show signs of being in heat,Fact.
The responces I've had from using this sound have produced 32 alpha males,9 alpha females, fact.(just coyotes killed) The responces from this sound have, not once evoked a responce from a SINGLE coyote, Fact. This sound has evoked responce from coyotes all times of year, Fact. This sound works on high pressured coyote populations, Fact. The sound that I'm using is different from a "Excited Yip", fact.( I do and can tell the difference) This sound works on coyotes that have made a positive ID on me and are leaving the country, FACT."
Nobody's arguing the response.
YOU BELIEVE the sound that you are using is different from an "excited yip" but you don't know what the coyotes think and that's my point.
quote:
Sly: "At this time no one does..."
Exactly! So why would you take offense if someone disagrees with your theory?
First you admit that you don't know why they respond then you suggest that it's because of sex. I agree with you when you say you don't know why they respond. I disagree with you when you say it's for sex.
quote:
Sly: "So you don't agree, thats fine but don't belittle my observations and opinions to make yourself look good or justify your opinion."
Challenging a theory has nothing to do with making anyone look good or anyone look bad. It has to do with sorting what can be proven from what can't be proven.
quote:
Sly: "I may not agree with your opinion but I respect it and weather you agree with me or not I think you should respect my opinion also."
I do respect your opinion on not knowing why they respond. I just happen to disagree with your theory that they respond for sex.
The only problem I have with you at this very minute Sly is your accusation that I "turn people's words around" and "change their meaning".
I'd like you to back that accusation with an actual quote.
Sly shared a recent calling situation with me. In that situation, coyotes were coming into a calving pen. He claims to have stopped their departure with this miracle sound. Think about it. First off, a coyote is not a welcome guest in a calving pen and they know it (CONDITIONED RESPONSE TO HUMANS) and this is following a rifle shot (ANOTHER CONDITIONED RESPONSE). I assume he isn't using a supressor. I don't believe a coyote is going to stop in that situation for sex because I've never seen it or heard anyone else that has seen it. In that situation, I think an excited sound of a coyote involved in killing is going to have a lot more appeal. I've SEEN that and I know others that have SEEN that. Once they were in the kill mode, they threw caution to the wind. I doubt sex will elicit that same response.
Seriously Leonard, you are a smart guy, tell me what you think.
Do you believe a coyote is going to stop and return to a situation like this for sex?
quote:
Melvin: "Naw,that sounds like your giving credit to where credit is not due."
I agree Melvin! Thank you!
quote:
Chad: "if we as humans can't agree on what it should sound like, how in the HELL do you expect me to believe that you know what a coyote thinks the sound means"
EXACTLY!
The entire debate is summed up in a single sentence.
~SH~
[ February 28, 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2007, 10:45 PM:
Well coyotes and wolves inter breed? Here is what i have to say on this subject. I was in S.D. on a hunting trip 5-6 years ago and i stopped at the D.N.R head quarters to pic up a lic. While i was there a Warden asked if i would like to see something different, i said sure. The warden took me back to a large walk in freezer and this is what i saw. The animal was hanging from its hind legs with the nose almost toucheing the floor and its back feet touching the ceiling. I figure the ceiling height was 7-8 feet, but not sure.
This animal was big like a Minn. timber wolf,its fur looked like a coyote, its tail looked like a coyote, as i looked at it i said to the warden its a coyote on steroids or someone just shot a timber wolf. The warden laughed and said i was right on both answers. I asked him to please explane.
There is a rancher that raises timber wolf hybreds and and they are kept in kennels except one it either runs loose in the yard or its was on a chain, not sure on that part.. Anyway either his hybred got breed by a coyote or it breed a coyote, not sure on this part. Anyway there are eight pups born and they were running loose in the area that i hunt, which was 15-30 miles from this ranch. A hunter was in the same area that i call in and he called in this Hybred and killed it. The hunter did'nt know what he had so he took it in to the D.N.R. and they kept it so they could run a D.N.A test on it. The test came back and they found that it was part coyote and part Hybred wolf. They just so happen to know that one of the ranchers had Hybred wolves so they went to talk with him and now you have it. I will send them a E-mail and see if i can get them to send me some pic's. From what i gathered they were going to give the animal back to the hunter or keep it if he did not want it and have it mounted for display in there headquarters. I will check into it...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 28, 2007, 11:26 PM:
quote:
Seriously Leonard, you are a smart guy, tell me what you think. Wiley E
You want me to be the judge of that event? From the standpoint of truth, I'm not a "lie detector"; so I will assume this is the honest account of an eye witness?
Well, okay, I'll offer my opinion as a non professional recreational predator hunter, and leave my expertise, confured by virtue of owning a message board, behind.
(sound the trumpets, please)
OPINION Seems unlikely? OPINION
caveat: we all know that a coyote can do some peculiar and surprising things, from time to time.
Good hunting. LB
[ February 28, 2007, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2007, 11:28 PM:
On the subject of different sounds used for calling coyotes:
I do all of my calling north of where Scott H. lives, this area is wide open and you can see for quit aways in most directions. Most of the time when a coyote is called in i can see him for a long ways off. Like Scott H also said you can see the coyote and you can learn from him on what sounds work and what does'nt. It is a great area to learn about how the coyote responds compared to where most of you guys live.
When i first started calling out there i had a electric call and 75-100 cassetts to use with all the different sounds you could think of. I was in search of the magic sound that would bring coyotes running in from all directions. From all the sounds i had in my library i found that only a half a dozen would do the job most of the time.
Some of the sounds that i use will bring the coyote in when the wind blows hard, some of them well bring the coyote in on a dead run. A few sounds i have to leave on continues to keep them comeing. If i shut the unit off the coyote would stop, if i left it on they would also come in on a dead run. When i started calling coyotes there was nobody to teach me, i had to learn on my own and it took me a long time. I only called coyotes two-three weeks out of a year and from the area i called in i was able to learn alot from the coyote. I watched his body posture, how they came in, and how they reacted to different sounds and so on. I could tell if there was more than one coyote, if they have been called before and so on.
I could tell how far the sound was reaching from the electric caller, i have called them up wind , down wind, cross wind. For me i would look at the lay of the land and i could come pretty close to how i wanted the coyote to come in and i new how i could get the stand to work for me.
I have been busted a few times but i learned from these mistakes. I have a general idea of how Scott sets up and why. he dose'nt like to leave anything to chance, uses wind in his favor, sun at his back so coyote is blinded from seeing him, does alot of walking to reduce the chance of a coyote from seeing him drive in. If i lived there and could hunt as much as i could i would do the same, but i only have 5-6 days so i cheat a little and have been able to get my stands to work in my favor. My main goal is to get in as many stands as i possibly can in five days. As i see it its a numbers game, if i have 1 coyote show out of every four stands and i make 12 stands, thats three coyotes. Anyway back to the number of different sounds you can use, i think most of them are a waste of time, unless you have a high population area and you can get in close, alot of sounds don't carry very far and that is one of the reason why i feel they don't work very well. I think i could go on for days on this subject so i better stop now...
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 01, 2007, 04:38 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 01, 2007, 06:48 AM:
As most of you know, I have a coyote in the yard. If the kids are out playing or the coyotes favorite playmate, the corgi, and the coyote wants out of its kennel to join in, that coyote will make all kinds of chirps and whines. Little bird chirps and lots of them. I guess maybe I should be recording them? HMMM! Never thought of that!
Maybe I could record them and put them on my FoxPro!
LOL! I'm going to call them "The coyote wants to play with the kids" whines! And I have video footage of it so that no one can challenge the name of my new sound.
[ March 01, 2007, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 01, 2007, 07:34 AM:
Record it Cal!
Then it can be compared to other sounds and see if the coyote's react any different to it.
GREAT IDEA!
~SH~
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 01, 2007, 09:09 AM:
Cal,cut the chirps in a sequence of four or five,then try them on a stand.You may be surprised at the results.
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 01, 2007, 09:41 AM:
Scott,
You can pull a sentence from a paragraph and change the meaning. This is easly done for some and you are good at it. I'm not that good at pulling words or sentences from paragraphs and using them against the writer. I read the hole thing and try to find the meaning in its context.
Example:
IE: the house was red, in the late summer twilight. The true color is mushroom.
when pulled out of context:
"You told us "The house was red" now you say its mushroom, what color is it.
Its a play on words.
I know what an "Excited Yip" sounds like Scott, I also know what this "Estrus Chirp" sounds like. I have used the "Excited Yip" for years and have found it to be successful a good bit of the time. This "Chirp" has done very well compaired to any other sound I know, with exception of the old stand by "Lip squeek". its hard to beat a sound that you have faith in.
Now, I don't know if the coyote will condition to this sound as they do to the rabbit and the howling. The verdict isn't in on that yet. Again time will tell.
SH~: "In this case, I insult SOME people by challenging their theories as to why coyotes respond to certain sounds."
You don't get it Scott, its not the challenging of the theorie that is insulting its the pissy little medafors that you use.IE: "original concept thinkers" and "It's not like the "original concept seekers" don't have their pom pom wavers","your "SO CALLED" estrous chirp", " "QUEST FOR ORIGINALITY" and the way you say it,makes me think that you are trying to imply that I'm stupid. That is an insult directed to me and anyone who don't agree with you.
Thats what I take issue with Scott, even after we agree to disagree you come back and poke little jabs at me and a few others.
SH~: Exactly! So why would you take offense if someone disagrees with your theory?
I don't take offence to your disagreing with my theory. I take offence to your poking fun at it all the time, thats all I'm saying.
SH~: It has to do with sorting what can be proven from what can't be proven.
Problem is Scott, you can't prove that you are right anymore than I can (at this time)prove I am.
SH~: Do you believe a coyote is going to stop and return to a situation like this for sex?
Here again you are using my words OUT of CONTEXT.
BTW did you tell LB that the coyote that came back to the sound was a 30# female and BTW they were not killing when I shot either one of them nor were they eating.
Scott I have said all along that I think its sex and territorial but more importantly I have said I also belive it to be a triggering sound. ( Something that they can't ignor ) Primevil drive type of thing.
My finger hurts.
sly
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on March 01, 2007, 09:57 AM:
I have to wonder just how much crap the guy that invented the wheel had to put up with. Why do you call it the wheel?. What do you mean it rolls?. Do you have any scientific proof what roll means?. If it rolls in March will it roll in September?. Does it roll up hill and down hill?. My cousin slipped on the side of a mountain and rolled off a cliff, was he a wheel?.What does that squeak it's making mean. Will Mastodons come to that sound?.
"AND THE BEAT GOES ON"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2007, 10:45 AM:
Yeah, Ronnie. Point well taken.
But, it keeps a few of us from getting busted up in some Honky Tonk on a Saturday night, and it's relatively harmless entertainment. Not evil intent, like that vicious little pipsqueak, Robb the Troll.
However, you have been a perfect gentleman in all of this dialogue. Good on you.
CAL, I do think it's a heck of a good idea to record the sounds of that pup coyote wanting out to play. How come you never thought of it before?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 01, 2007, 10:56 AM:
I know,I know I said I was done,but I just can't help myself.
Sly,
I don't even think YOU can call it a theory yet.You yourself said that in 37 years of calling you have heard this sound exactly ONCE by a live coyote.To base a theory(Sex/territorial)on ONE experience is a JOKE!!!Bottom Line.
So if you want to believe you've got it all figured out on why the coyote is responding that's your choice,but for someone like me that has half as many years of coyote calling/howling experience(21)as you do,I see it for what it is, SPECULATIVE BULLSH**T.Good Hunting Chad
Like I said in my last post,you can't even get two people to agree what the "Estrus Chirp" should sound like.
[ March 01, 2007, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 01, 2007, 11:23 AM:
How far does the chirp carry? Is it used for calling in coyotes or coaxing them in closer? Does it sound like a robins chirp or more like a prarie dog? Could i coax more coyotes in by useing the chirp compared to useing a squeaker. Would it be better to use a Black bear chirp since it could be louder and thus carry farther???
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 01, 2007, 11:32 AM:
Sorry the sarcasm was missed. I was kidding around with you guys. The only reason I have the coyote is for recordings. I have recorded all kinds of sounds from her at great length and have been testing them to see what works and what doesn't.
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 01, 2007, 01:00 PM:
So Chad,
With your vast knowledge and scientific mind, remember I have yet to bring to the table "ALL of my data. As I have said: I don't type well and have a hard time trying to express myself on this PC.
If you were to talk to me on the phone I'm certian you would understand what I'm saying much better and I would be able to shair much more indepth what I know. 208 841 5554 anytime
As to your comment .... LOL you crack me up.
CHAD:So if you want to believe you've got it all figured out on why the coyote is responding that's your choice,but for someone like me that has half as many years of coyote calling/howling experience as you do,I see it for what it is, SPECULATIVE BULLSH**T.Good Hunting Chad
I have never said: "I HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT"
CHAD:for someone like me that has half as many years of coyote calling/howling experience as you do,I see it for what it is, SPECULATIVE BULLSH**T.
Two things here that come to mind: #1 why would you question some one who has, as you said: twice as many years expiriance with out knowing ALL the facts.
#2 its funny to me that you can even sit there behind your PC and talk sh** to me. At least Scott has as much time in the field and practicle expiriance as I do. I respect that.
are you wanting me to name a call after you also.
Let me think,,,,,,,maybe the "chapped lip Bata" or "little big dog" HUUUUUMMMmmm the posibilitys.
Often times when two alpha's are fighting, the batas get in the middle and limp home.
I guess if you can't beat them, join in the fun.
sly
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2007, 01:24 PM:
Chad knows his shit, Sly.
Not sticking up for either of you, about this subject, but he's a real good experienced coyote hunter, day and night. I'd hunt with him.
Or you, too, for that matter.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 01, 2007, 01:31 PM:
LB,
Its not me who's questioning him.
I'm sure he has spent time out there doing the job. My debate ain't with him but if he wants to join in then so be it.
If you corner a dog expect to get bit.
sly
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 01, 2007, 01:58 PM:
Sly,
Without getting another 5 page thread going I will address some of what you said.
Sly:With your vast knowledge and scientific mind, remember I have yet to bring to the table "ALL of my data. As I have said: I don't type well and have a hard time trying to express myself on this PC.
What "data" do you speak of.How you "Chirp" on your howler and coyotes come running?I am not disputing that,just your explanation of why they are comming.When you yourself "all 37 years of experience" and all have only heard ONE coyote make the sound.LOL
Sly:I have never said: "I HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT"
You sure implied that the reason they are responding was for sex/territorial reasons when you really don't know.
Sly:Two things here that come to mind: #1 why would you question some one who has, as you said: twice as many years expiriance with out knowing ALL the facts.
Just because you have been calling for more years than I doesn't mean you have more or better understanding of howling and coyote vocalizations.
Sly:#2 its funny to me that you can even sit there behind your PC and talk sh** to me. At least Scott has as much time in the field and practicle expiriance as I do. I respect that.
First off I would tell you the same thing face to face as I would behind a PC,second You don't know me and how much time I have in the field just like I don't know you and how much time you have in the field.Years don't always equal more experience.And before you get your Panties in a wad I'm not saying you don't have the experience to back up your years in the field.lol
Sly:are you wanting me to name a call after you also.
HARDLY..
Sly:Often times when two alpha's are fighting, the batas get in the middle and limp home.
LOL you just keep telling yourself you're a Alpha.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on March 01, 2007, 04:24 PM:
See how it feels Chad, when someone you don't know, that don't know you, inpunes your integrity.
As far as data, I keep reccords of my stands. From these reccords I can learn much more than you think. You want details call me.
Its up to you Chad.
sly
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 01, 2007, 05:47 PM:
Sly:See how it feels Chad, when someone you don't know, that don't know you, inpunes your integrity.
I guess you lost me.How does me knowing you or not knowing you have anything to do with you believing you know why a coyote is responding to a estrus chirp.And I never called your integrity into question,I just said you don't really know why the coyote responded.And you don't.....
Sly:As far as data, I keep reccords of my stands. From these reccords I can learn much more than you think. You want details call me.
I'm well aware that alot can be learned from record keeping with regards to calling.But it still doesn't change the fact that you don't know why they responded. Chad
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 01, 2007, 06:04 PM:
quote:
Sly: "You can pull a sentence from a paragraph and change the meaning."
Bullsh*t!
Sly,
This is the second time I'm asking you.
Bring the quote and show everyone where I have "turned words around" or "changed their meanings".
I'm going to keep asking until you provide an example by bringing MY ACTUAL QUOTE where I SUPPOSEDLY "turned words around" or "changed their meanings".
Talk is cheap Sly, bring the quote.
Not some generic example like you just provided.
quote:
Sly: "Thats what I take issue with Scott, even after we agree to disagree you come back and poke little jabs at me and a few others."
I'm poking fun at the "estrous chirp concept" because I think it's bogus. I never once mentioned your name in this thread until you got bent out of shape defending a concept YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.
If the response examples you have provided during the calf complaint are real, and I have no reason to doubt that they are, then there is another reason besides sex that is eliciting that response.
A coyote is not going to run back to a calving pen after hearing a shot FOR SEX or TERRITORIAL REASONS, which is exactly what the "estrous chirp" concept is trying to imply.
There is certain things that a coyote will throw caution to the wind for UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. One is during a killing spree, another is to come to the rescue of another coyote in distress, and the other is maternal instincts of protecting dens.
I do not believe you are going to get a coyote to throw caution to the wind for sex to the same degree.
quote:
Sly: "Problem is Scott, you can't prove that you are right anymore than I can (at this time)prove I am."
I can provide many examples of where coyotes have thrown caution to the wind during protection of the den, to come to the rescue of one of their own, or during a killing spree.
I cannot provide an example where coyotes have thrown caution to the wind TO THAT SAME DEGREE for sex.
quote:
SH (previous): "Do you believe a coyote is going to stop and return to a situation like this for sex?"
quote:
Sly (in response): "Here again you are using my words OUT of CONTEXT."
I simply asked a question.
Here's your example....
quote:
Sly: "After I helped get those damned heffers back in I sat up on the hay stack and waited almost 2 hours till the cows started gettin a little loud. I turned on my spot and sure as hell, both were in the middle pen and surrounded with cows. I'm sure learnin alot about this chirp. I shot the first coyote and all hell broke loose. There was cattle goin every witch way and when I spotted the seccond coyote she was almost to the fence, so I gave her a little serise of 3 chirps and STOPED HER DEAD in her tracks."
In that situation you got a coyote to stop with three "chirps". So what? I can do the same thing with an adult coyote distress and possibly get this coyote to turn and come back if it's out of range.
So I ask again, do you think you can get an adult coyote to come back to a situation like this for sex?
Let me remind you of what you stated...
quote:
Sly: "Why does the hole group respond? well I belive the males are comming for the sex... (thats how men think),,,LOL,,, the females are comming to defend their territorial boundrys ( don't want a strange bitch in her backyard )."
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that your statement DIRECLY ABOVE refers to a situation where a coyote is unaware of your presence as opposed to coming back to a calving lot, after hearing a shot, for sex.
BTW, the territorial aspects of a coyote are far more apparent 1 month after breeding, prior to denning, than during breeding. Heck, most of the times when I see coyotes breeding, they aren't any where close to where they are going to den because they are close to cattle so how can you say that coyotes come to "estrous chirps" for territorial reasons. They aren't generally territorial until April.
quote:
[Sly: "BTW did you tell LB that the coyote that came back to the sound was a 30# female and BTW they were not killing when I shot either one of them nor were they eating."
Ok so they weren't killing but they were damn sure there to eat or something. The may not have been eating when you shot them but that's why they were there.
We have another problem. Your stories are conflicting so I must ask....
Did the 30# female COME BACK TO THE SOUND or did it STOP DEAD IN HER TRACKS?
BIG DIFFERENCE!
quote:
Varmit Hunter: "I have to wonder just how much crap the guy that invented the wheel had to put up with."
Probably not much. The wheel is self explanatory and the benefits obvious.
In comparison, the "estrous chirp" concept is more along the order of someone selling you a lightning rod for your house.
Know anyone that ever questioned the effectiveness of a lightning rod? I do but never the lightning rod salesman. Don't see many lightning rods on houses anymore do you. At one time, everyone was convinced they were the real deal.
And the beat goes on.....
~SH~
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 01, 2007, 06:44 PM:
quote:
Often times when two alpha's are fighting, the batas get in the middle and limp home.
This got my interest.
Sly, have you ever seen this occur? You must have since you said "often times". Under what circumstances?
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on March 01, 2007, 07:21 PM:
Hell Rich, I've seen that myself. I think it was in front of a bar in Scottsdale.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 01, 2007, 07:57 PM:
Maybe this Chirp is more of a distress sound, like ouch,ouch youre hurting me big boy, and thats why you are getting a response. Distress not sex.????????
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 02, 2007, 04:49 PM:
quote:
TA: "Maybe this Chirp is more of a distress sound, like ouch,ouch youre hurting me big boy, and thats why you are getting a response. Distress not sex.????????"
After hearing the sound, I think you are "bang on the money" (no pun intended).
~SH~
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on March 02, 2007, 07:05 PM:
My,I thought I knew quite a bit about calling coyotes,but listening to you guys, is interesting. Who cares what kinds of sounds call in coyotes. Whatever works for you , is all that matters. If you can call them in with a Fog Horn so be. It looks to me like you guys are getting to critical of each other. These are suppose to be informative and educational, but it looks like things are getting a little out of hand. Grant it some of you know a lot about coyotes,but a lot of people on this site are just interested in the bascics. I have called coyotes since I was 11yrs old and I am 62yrs old now. Does that make me an expert. I think not. I have learned a thing or two in those years,but I just stick to the things that work for me. If someone thinks they have a great way to call in coyote so be. That is just my opinon and I am entitled to it just like everyone else is. Enough said.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 02, 2007, 07:17 PM:
Jerry were you exhaling or did you inhale all of that?
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on March 02, 2007, 07:42 PM:
Rich, I think I was doing a little of both. Just venting a little frustration. We got lots of snow up here now.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 02, 2007, 07:49 PM:
It's 58 degrees here now. Clear and calm. Coyotes were howling out back an hour ago. The dogs and I joined in. Wish I could inhale a howl like you. Or exhale one like Scott.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 02, 2007, 08:00 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 03, 2007, 08:26 AM:
quote:
J_hun: "Who cares what kinds of sounds call in coyotes."
I certainly do. I also care about why that sound elicited a response so I know when to use that sound again. Then again, I take this a lot more seriously than the average Joe.
~SH~
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 03, 2007, 05:40 PM:
quote:
. I also care about why that sound elicited a response so I know when to use that sound again.
I'm confused. Haven't you been telling us that we can't possibly know why a coyote responds?
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on March 04, 2007, 04:59 AM:
TA17Rem, We have about 4" on the ground right now. It will go away pretty quick with the warm weather coming. About 35 miles East, they have a lot more snow. Went to Sioux Falls yesterday in that shitty weather and saw three coyotes off the interstate. The wind was blowing 40mph but the coyotes were still moving. Saw one right in the outskirts of Sioux Falls along the Big Sioux River. I might be able to find you a partner for the Varmint Hunters Contest next year. The Dupree contest was won by Bob Stalley and his Partner Austin Early. They had a good day with 10 coyotes. Second place was Rocky Longbrake and partner with 6 coyotes I think. They had 58 teams. It seems to be growing bigger every year.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 04, 2007, 06:03 PM:
quote:
I'm confused. Haven't you been telling us that we can't possibly know why a coyote responds?
Details Rich H, mere details. I'm also confused Wiley. I can't wait to see the spin job you put on this one.
[ March 04, 2007, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 04, 2007, 06:46 PM:
quote:
RH: "I'm confused. Haven't you been telling us that we can't possibly know why a coyote responds?"
Are you suggesting that you know why a coyote responds in each situation to every sound?
No? Then I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle doesn't it?
Sometimes we have a pretty good idea why they respond and sometimes we don't have a clue.
I think some amongst us would lead others to believe they know a hell of a lot more than they actually do.
I questioned how anyone could know that a coyote responding to a DUPLICATION OF an estrous chirp was respounding for sexual reasons. I never said we can't possibly know why coyotes respond to certain sounds under certain situations.
If I blow a pup distress sound near a den with pups in that den I'll have a pretty good idea why the bitch is barking in my face.
Don't spin what I've stated Rich.
~SH~
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 04, 2007, 06:49 PM:
quote:
Smithers: "I'm also confused Wiley."
I've noticed!
quote:
Smithers: "I can't wait to see the spin job you put on this one."
You're too late Smithers, the spin job is already in place. The spin job was the implication that I don't think we ever know why a coyote responds.
I'll bet you really look cute in your cheerleading outfit don't you?
Think for yourself Smithers!
~SH~
[ March 04, 2007, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 04, 2007, 08:28 PM:
I'm not spinning anything. I am telling you that I am confused over this apparent contradiction.
You stated
quote:
What you don't know is why they responded. You don't know what they are thinking in their response anymore than you know what a dog is thinking that is baying on a track. For all you know he might be thinking "damn I wish Rich wouldn't feed me right next to that smelly cat".
Followed by
quote:
I also care about why that sound elicited a response so I know when to use that sound again.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 04, 2007, 08:34 PM:
Matter of fact, Wiley, it fits quite well. I had it resized just last week. The pom poms are a little frayed but they'll do for now.
I just like to see you copy and paste. It fascinates me!
The pup distress scenario is fairly obvious. I'd like to see you opine on some other aspects of the why's and what for's of a response. Besides the obvious I was hungry or just love to kill rabbit's, lambs, antelope, deer etc.
[ March 04, 2007, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2007, 08:45 PM:
You know what?
The UBB program for The New Huntmasters has a feature where you can reply quoting a whole post; real easy, just click! Scott is the reason why it's not turned on; poor guy, cut and paste, cut and paste, cut and paste....
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2007, 06:17 AM:
Guys, nobody is forced to read my posts so if I want to respond directly to a quote (copy/paste)then nobody should be concerned if they can just as easily skip over it right? Good grief! I'd swear if I didn't know better some of you are being forced to read my posts against your will.
"Well officer, I was being held at gunpoint and forced to read Wiley's copy/paste and I just lost it and started shooting........"
Can you say, "DIVERSION"? Sure, I knew you could!!!!!! Oh yeh, and lot's not forget the !!!!!!!! Heaven forbid someone use!!!!! OR CAPS, GEEEZ, TURN DOWN THE DAMN VOLUME ON THOSE LETTERS DUUUUUUDE!!!!!!!! And speling gee we shud al larn to spal to imprez atherz.
Not only do some think I should display everything I have learned about calling coyotes and coyote behavior, then some want to tell me what format to deliver it in only so I can read my answers to the same questions on another forum a month later. LOL!
I'll post in the manner I want to. If some don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that.
NEXT!
Ok Rich,
Within the context of a dog baying on a track, tell me what he's thinking?
Simply put, I think there is observations tied to certain sounds that give us a better idea of what a coyote is thinking than other sounds (ie pup distress).
No contradiction if read within the context of the action. In the context of your example, you were discussing tracking hounds. I don't have a clue what a tracking hound is thinking so Rich, tell me, what is a hound thinking when he's baying on a track....hmmmm????
Natural instinct? Sex? Territorial? Hunger? Blood lust? what the hell is this smell? Enjoying the chase?
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 05, 2007, 06:27 AM:
"I think some amongst us would lead others to believe they know a hell of a lot more than they actually do."
---------------------------------
Now THAT is absolute fact. The understatement of the past 100 years or so.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2007, 06:40 AM:
quote:
Smithers: "Matter of fact, Wiley, it fits quite well. I had it resized just last week. The pom poms are a little frayed but they'll do for now."
Resized? Little trip to the silicone man huh? Keep those legs shaved and that hem low and it'll be our little secret. Try to keep your eyes off "Cindy the hottie" so you don't get a chubby during drill practice. That wouldn't be good. Those little skirts can hide your ass but they won't hide .....well, you know!
quote:
Smithers: "I just like to see you copy and paste. It fascinates me!"
Are you hitting on me?
Naaaaahhhh, you're not......naaaaahhhhhh!
You really like it huh? I'm glad but I really hope that's the only thing about me that fascinates you cause I'm fat and ugly and I don't have much for social graces. I live with my mother and I might not bathe for weeks at a time. Please tell me the copy/paste thing is the only thing that fascinates you about me.
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 05, 2007, 07:01 AM:
quote:
I don't have a clue what a tracking hound is thinking so Rich, tell me, what is a hound thinking when he's baying on a track....hmmmm????
This brings us to the very crux of this entire subject.
. What a sound means versus what an animal is thinking.
2dogs said:
"But to actually say, man knows what a coyote [or dog] for that matter. Is saying/thinking, is speculation."
His convoluted thinking has lumped coyotes together with dogs and "saying" with "thinking".
I pointed out that houndsmen KNOW what a dog is "saying". I can't believe that anyone knows what the dogs are thinking, which probably changes as fast as the action does.
I am equally convinced that we can often know what a coyote is "saying", without knowing what it is "thinking" at that particular moment. It matters not. We can still capitalize on what they are "saying" without ever knowing what they are "thinking".
The conclusion of the report on the Air Force's "Super Dog" studies stated, and I am paraphrasing,
"We do not know why these dogs behave a certain way. We feel it is enough to know that they do."
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2007, 08:21 AM:
Good post, Higgins.
edit: smithers and Wiley, sitting in a tree....
[ March 05, 2007, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 05, 2007, 08:43 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2007, 08:57 AM:
RH: "The conclusion of the report on the Air Force's "Super Dog" studies stated, and I am paraphrasing,
"We do not know why these dogs behave a certain way. We feel it is enough to know that they do."
Exactly! I appreciate their honesty as opposed to thinking they know why their dogs behave a certain way.
As I have stated repeatedly, there is a "warning bark" (for lack of a better term or understanding of the sound) that a coyote elicits when a decoy dog is near the den. There is also a "warning bark" (for lack of a better term or understanding of the sound) that a coyote elicits when said coyote has spotted the hunter. I have heard each sound a thousand times as well as the responses to each sound. Based on OBSERVATIONS, one warns coyotes and the other calls them to action AND I'LL CHALLENGE ANYONE TO SHOW ME THE DIFFERENCE.
A coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and pull another pair of coyotes into a carcass from 9 miles away (Slim Pedersen OBSERVATION and back track in snow) and a coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and simply get another coyote to respond vocally while each coyote goes on their merry way. One creates an approach response and the other didn't and it sounds the same. Perhaps it is the same which would make any researcher positively conclude that sometimes they respond and sometimes they don't and nobody knows why. Haha!
The best research always leads to more questions than answers.
I'm glad you admit that we don't know what they are thinking then it's just as safe to say we don't know why they are responding.
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2007, 10:29 AM:
Scott. Actually, I don't see anything in your post, with which to disagree. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 05, 2007, 10:32 AM:
Neither do I. That's why we are reduced to arguing over the difference between elicit and issue.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2007, 10:52 AM:
group hug!
BUT NOT WITH SMITHERS unless he changes out of that little cheerleading skirt.
~SH~
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 05, 2007, 11:15 AM:
Wiley, the copy and paste thing is the ONLY thing that fascinates me about you. I do find your posts intriguing and you do stick to your guns which I respect. Your knowledge serves you well. Rich Cronk respects you and that's all I need to know.
My coyotye knowledge may pale in comparison to some of you old bastards but I will learn as I go. I can't help myself I have OCD. I wouldn't put my seven seasons up against anyone's 20 + yrs. I know what I know and that's all that I know.
As far as the cheerleading out fit goes it is a male cheerleading outfit.
group hug!
except for Wiley, atleast 'til his mom gives him a bath.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 05, 2007, 02:55 PM:
"except for Wiley, atleast 'til his mom gives him a bath."
---------------------------
Smithers,
Most of us old bastard's take a bath every spring, whether we need it ir not. I am old enough to be Wiley's Dad. He still has my respect, even though he is just a pup yet.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2007, 02:57 PM:
quote:
Smithers: "except for Wiley, atleast 'til his mom gives him a bath."
"HELL NO, I WON'T GO!"
~SH~
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 05, 2007, 04:27 PM:
Actually, and just to clarify, I wear no cheerleading outfit of any kind and never have. I've been in a few but I wasn't wearing them.
Back to the subject at hand.
Can we understand just exactly what a coyote is conveying when they howl, bark, whimper. Not exactly. Can we as humans assume what they are trying to convey close enough to use it to our advantage. Of course. Otherwise, we would all be calling in vain.
Coyotes in groups, as we know, have a hierarchy. Perhaps, there is a graduated 'job title' held by these coyotes as well.
The job of the Alpha's is to keep the pack in order and lead the killing. The beta's are assigned pack cohesion as well as discipline duties. The underling's are just biding their time waiting to disperse or challenge for higher ranking. Maybe, in a group, one coyote has the job of letting everyone know dinner is served or that they have found something. Like a scout. When they hear that distinct howl they know dinner is on. All other group members have their distinct role and through their distinct barks howls etc. let the other group member's know what's on the agenda.
This may explain the reason why nomadic coyotes don't howl as much as grouped coyotes do. Who would they be howling to? They're only role is to survive. Theory.
[ March 05, 2007, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 05, 2007, 09:06 PM:
Smithers,
Most coyotes in most EXPLOITED areas do not run in packs or groups.
Sure, there is the occasional family group but there is just as many singles out there.
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 06, 2007, 03:19 AM:
[ March 26, 2007, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 07, 2007, 06:25 AM:
A coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and pull another pair of coyotes into a carcass from 9 miles away (Slim Pedersen OBSERVATION and back track in snow) and a coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and simply get another coyote to respond vocally while each coyote goes on their merry way. One creates an approach response and the other didn't and it sounds the same. Perhaps it is the same which would make any researcher positively conclude that sometimes they respond and sometimes they don't and nobody knows why. Haha!
Scott do you think that these two howls would be the exact same and the different coyotes respond to it differently? Is it possible they are different but the human ear or human brain can not distinguish the difference? I just have to believe that ALL of us including myself probably think we know more about the coyote vocalizations then we think and on our death bed will finally learn that LOLOLOLOLOL. In your observations have you been able to ever tell the difference between the two warning barks?
Great thread boys!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 07, 2007, 07:51 AM:
I haven't heard as many coyote barks as Wiley, Rich Higgins or Slydog. I am fairly certain of that because I haven't had the opportunity to spend nearly as many hours in good coyote country as those guys have. I have heard many variations of what I call a "challenge howl" or "Challenge bark". I have been able to recognize the coyote's meaning when they make this sound, because I can just FEEL the anger in that voice. I have also hadcoyotes hang up back in the brush and bark a different type of bark. I think I detect frustration in that particular bark. It sounds to me like a coyote wants to come in, has sensed something is not quite right and is venting it's frustration. To me, the meaning of most coyote vocalizations are found mostly in the inflection, or "mood" that I hear in the voice. I think maybe a bark to warn other coyotes would likely be the "woof" a momma coyote makes to warn her pups of danger. I know that I'm probably not absolutely correct here, but I think I am pretty dang close.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 07, 2007, 08:38 AM:
Great point Rich that is what i base most of my decisions on in the field ( the attitude or inflection) I'm just wondering if the guys that have spent more time in the field than me have figured out the cadence part of it. I go back and forth between the thought of every different cadence and length of howl meaning something different and the thought of they just howl but it is the emotion while howling that contains the meaning. This would exclude the diffenrenes between the general long drawn out howl and short barks that the cadence is certainly an important part.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 07, 2007, 08:53 AM:
Great post Rich.
That's a very good description of what I believe ("frustration vs anger"). I hate to tie human terms to animals but I think that is as close to being on target as we are going to get.
A trapper friend of mine came up with the word "animane" instead of "humane". I love that word and use it often because I hate giving animals the same feelings as people.
quote:
nd: "Scott do you think that these two howls would be the exact same and the different coyotes respond to it differently? Is it possible they are different but the human ear or human brain can not distinguish the difference?"
Yes I believe, BASED ON THE RESPONSE, that these howls have different meanings and yes I cannot distinguish the two but there might be an audible difference.
Same as with the warning bark of a coyote that has seen you which warns other coyotes and a warning bark of a coyote at the den that calls it's mate. I cannot tell an audible difference but there is a different reaction to each sound.
Then again, here I go contradicting myself, the meaning might be the same but the "den" aspect makes the mate throw it's caution to the wind for the sake of the den. Make sense?
All we can do is listen to any audible differences and read the reactions. I appreciate those who question themselves because they are less apt to mislead.
quote:
nd: "In your observations have you been able to ever tell the difference between the two warning barks?"
No I can't! There might be a difference but I can't detect it especially considering that there is sometimes audible differences from coyote to coyote.
~SH~
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 07, 2007, 09:25 AM:
When denning with the dogs is the "warning bark" the most common vocalization that you hear the coyotes use? This would lead me to believe that the sound is used more often and for more things then previouly. The term warning bark that everyone uses could be misleading. Would it be a stretch to just say that it is a sound used by the coyote when it is worked up.
Has anyone witnessed a coyote doing a "warning bark" in a frustration situation such as a river it can't cross or fence that it can't get through but so badly wants to? I have had coyotes challenging and then switch to from my research and observations a "warning bark" and assumed they seen something and left, now thinking back they might have just went to the next level of excitement?
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on March 07, 2007, 09:07 PM:
quote:
nd: "When denning with the dogs is the "warning bark" the most common vocalization that you hear the coyotes use?"
Yes!
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 08, 2007, 05:12 AM:
ND: "I have had coyotes challenging and then switch to from my research and observations a "warning bark" and assumed they seen something and left, now thinking back they might have just went to the next level of excitement?"
------------------------------
ND,
From reading your post, it sounds like your "warning bark" is the bark that I consider a "frustration" bark. I personally haven't experienced hearing a coyote switch from challenge howl or challenge "bark/howl" to a frustration bark. Not saying it never happens, I just haven't seen it.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 08, 2007, 06:05 AM:
Rich to clarify what i consider a "warning bark" from expierence and research is a vocalization tha sounds like a farm dog barking with very little howling involved. Maybe that is a "frustration howl" like is said before as soon as a guy thinks he has the little bastards all figured out they do something that makes you look like you know absouletly NOTHING!!!!
Some of it is that i'm not very quick to definitvely name a howl or assume i know what it is besides the basics. Like i said i base my decisions in the field on the expression in the howl more so than the cadence
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 08, 2007, 05:19 PM:
Maybe there is something preceding the bark or after the bark that holds significance. A growling type bark, a yapping-growl-howl-bark, a howl-bark mixture.
Seeing as I have very few chances to hear coyotes vocalize individually or in a group I tend to soak them in when I do hear them. It gives me a bit of a rush when I hear a coyote howl.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 08, 2007, 10:19 PM:
Smithers i hear them all the time but it still gives me a rush everytime!
I can see your point but it would have to be loud enough to carry or it would make no point to make the sound. (growling and such)
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 09, 2007, 06:19 PM:
ND, the growling and barking is only used to notify coyotes nearby. The bark is mainly used as an indicator of distance or as a warning, under most circumstances, especially with fox. Barks are not meant to carry as far as howls and growling is mainly a close quarters warning. If there are 2-3 coyotes and one is barking his head off and the other one, two or more escape, the bark served it's purpose.
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