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Author
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Topic: Howls and howlers
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 25, 2007 10:47 AM
Here is a subject that should generate some interesting opinions. We know that there are howlers being advertised as "male" howlers, and there are other howlers advertised as "female" howlers. I'm sure that most of those who are reading this have seen a certain recording being advertised as a "female invitation" howl. Now comes the question. Can a human actually tell by the sound of a coyote howling, if said coyote is male or female?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 25, 2007 10:58 AM
Rich: "Can a human actually tell by the sound of a coyote howling, if said coyote is male or female?"
At times! Usually the female is higher pitched and does more yapping. Sound familiar?
I've heard hundreds of coyotes howl then directed the plane in to shoot them then identified them which I consider a pretty good test.
Once again, consider the variables.
The more a person learns about the complexities of coyote language the more one realizes how little they know.
Coyotes can identify the vocalizations of individual coyotes just like dogs can identify the engine noise of certain vehicles.
Now enter the many variables of an attempt to duplicate certain coyote vocalizations. First all calls are not the same. Second, not everyone blows them the same. Third, not all conditions broadcast sound the same.
There is a lot lost in the translation of hearing a coyote vocalizatoin, trying to duplicate that vocalization, and getting a coyote to believe it's the vocalization you were attempting to duplicate.
A coyote hears what they believe is a coyote and they respond or maybe, they heard something that resembled a coyote and they respond. At times, they hear something that they know is an imitation of a coyote vocalization duplication and they don't respond because the last time they did, it was a human.
Every coyote is an individual and has a certain amount of curiousity and caution based on their previous life's experiences.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted February 25, 2007 11:41 AM
quote:
A coyote hears what they believe is a coyote and they respond or maybe, they heard something that resembled a coyote and they respond.
SO, if "a coyote hears what they BELIEVE is a coyote" and respond, then apparaently the sound "resembled" a coyote, and if "they heard something that RESEMBLED a coyote" and responded, then obviously the coyote BELIEVED the sound to be made by a coyote!! NO? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Got my head a spinning already!! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 25, 2007 12:25 PM
I have come to believe that the more howling you do on a stand,trying to convince a coyote that you are another coyote USUALLY plays out to a disadvantage,at least from what I've seen recently.I don't know whether it is because alot of guys(especially the novice callers) are using the hell out of there howlers cause that's what the DVD told them to do or if coyotes just figure out that they're immitations or what.I know that in the last few years less has been better for me.A Couple howls or pup distress,then be quiet and let there curiosity,or territorial instinct get the best of them,as far as being able to tell a male from a female,sometimes I can sometimes I can't.I heard one coyote this year that gave some challenge howls that I thought for sure to be a Big Dog Male and once I shot it, it turned out to be a female.Go Figure
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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canine
Knows what it's all about
Member # 687
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posted February 25, 2007 12:31 PM
Rich,
From my observations over the years, the only definate howl I can distinguish is the dominant male howl. That is in response to my howling when mating is goin on and they become extra territorial. 2 weeks ago I finally took out the dominant pair of a pack I have been keeping an eye on all summer and fall. Could not get them to respond to distress a couple times so I waited till mid Febuary and took them with coyote vocals. It only took one howl to get them to approach to escort me out but they didn't succeed.
I personally don't think that other than the dominants of a pack neither man nor coyote can distinguish the sex of a howler unless you give them a throaty dominant howl. That would be the last howl I would use on a stand unless dealing with a dominant territorial coyote. Then I'd use it to piss him or her off for an approach. 99% of the time it is a lone drawn out high pitched howl, with no barks.
My reasoning for thinking coyotes can't tell either is. Why, if they knew you were a non dominant female howling, would they circle so far down wind to scent you? I believe they know that you are not a member of there pack, so even though they know your a stranger, why try and scent you first? I know scenting will tell them what sex it is. Does there scent give off there mood so to speak? Telling the residant coyote that you mean trouble or come in peace? I think the scenting tells me they can't determine either.
One thing I do know, howling works great during breeding season! just the last couple weeks have yielded 8 coyotes in a dozen stands for me. Only the 1 double, the rest all singles and a mix of sexes. Most of my shots are long range when howling, 150 to 250 on average.
JD
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Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
Posts: 162 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 25, 2007 12:47 PM
"At times! Usually the female is higher pitched and does more yapping. Sound familiar?"
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Sounds VERY familiar Scott, but I mean coyotes. COYOTES Scott, not wives.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 25, 2007 12:58 PM
"as far as being able to tell a male from a female,sometimes I can sometimes I can't.I heard one coyote this year that gave some challenge howls that I thought for sure to be a Big Dog Male and once I shot it, it turned out to be a female"
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Chad,
I love that answer! I will buy your coffee the first chance I get. Now let me ask you, Did you ever hear a high pitched howl with a lot of yapping, you were certain it was a female until it came in and got shot-----You walk over to pick her up and find it to actually be a large MALE?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted February 25, 2007 01:01 PM
This should be good.
I "think" That most female, not all but most make a higher pitched howl.So with that said I think to a certain degree we can discearn male from female vocalizations. I think with that there are certian animals that just sound diferent. Could have been kicked by an antelope or hit by a car or birth defect could cause the exception.
"Scott: At times! Usually the female is higher pitched and does more yapping. Sound familiar? "
LMAO as my wife is telling me we have to go for the 21st time in ten min.........LOL
"Scott: The more a person learns about the complexities of coyote language the more one realizes how little they know."
Ronnie and I were talking about this very thing just the other day, when Ronnie said; You know sly, if we were readin a book on coyote vocalizations, MAN would be on page one. I said Hell I'm still readin the introduction tryin to look up all them 12 dollar words.
I do think with as much time as many of us have spent in the field we can, to a certian degree, disipher between male and female a good portion of the time.
I build calls for the masses that won't make the alpha growls and deep throted sounds associated with the alpha male, Because I think that unless you know, (through expirence) what you are doing, the alpha sounds will intimadate smaller or lessor dogs, thus causing a reverse effect, causing them to shy away.
I do build howlers that make what I consider to be alpha sounds for the advanced callers. I also don't use much barks as, I feel they are threatening and trip the defencive instinct button. Again this is just my thoughts and how I percive things...
just my 2 cents
sly
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
Posts: 179 | From: SW Idaho | Registered: Aug 2004
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted February 25, 2007 01:24 PM
In my opinon it would be real tough without being able to see the coyote to tell male or female unless it was the dominant Male real throaty deep howl. Even then i don't believe anyone could be certain but the percentages definetly go up on deciephering (sp?)
I do agree on Scotts comment that the females MOST of the time are higher pitched and do more yapping. However i wouldn't ever say after listening to a howl "that's definetly a female"
just my two cents
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 25, 2007 01:46 PM
TRnCO,
quote:
SH (previous): "A coyote hears what they believe is a coyote and they respond or maybe, they heard something that resembled a coyote and they respond."
I didn't word that very well.
I get a lot more vocal response with certain types of howlers than with others. Why is that? Well, we delve into coyote speculation again. I believe that they respond because they think it's another coyote but I can't prove that and I can argue against that just as easily as I can defend it. I just know they respond to certain howls better than others but I don't know why.
A siren doesn't sound like another coyote howl to you and me and some local coyotes will answer the town siren every evening. Do they think the town siren sounds like another group of coyotes or does it hurt their ears or does it perk their curiousity enough to howl? I like to believe they think it's another group of coyotes but I can't prove that and it certainly defies HUMAN logic because that siren would be the same family group of coyotes howling from the local fire hall downtown that never moves and howls at the same time every day regardless of weather. You'd think they'd get to the point where they'd quit answering if they thought it was other coyotes and those coyotes never moved but that would enter "coyote reasoning".
My point was that maybe they can tell the difference between a real coyote, a howler, and a siren but they are all close enough to a coyote howl that they still answer for some reason. It's easy to believe coyotes respond to a howl IMMITATION because they think it's another coyote but how can you explain a coyote howling at an ambulance going down the highway IN VISIBLE SIGHT OF THAT COYOTE when he can clearly see the sound is not coming from another coyote? I've seen that happen. That coyote kept howling at the ambulance siren until it was out of sight. Anyone want to tackle that one?
Has anyone seen them answer a train whistle? I haven't but I was just curious if anyone had.
Frequencies? Decibals (sp?)? Volume?
In other words maybe some sounds are close enough to a howl that they answer even though they know it's not a howl.
Is that as clear as mud?
There is also a level of how often you can get coyotes to answer. A train whistle with a train coming down the track real often might not elicit the same response as a daily siren.
Chad,
I have seen the same thing too. Swore it was a female and it turned out to be a male or the other way around based on both behavior and vocalizations.
I'll never forget one particular old squatty ancient male coyote. He didn't even sound like a coyote. Nobody would have even known it was a coyote but I watched him howl. I can't begin to describe the sound but I'll never forget it.
~SH~
[ February 25, 2007, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted February 25, 2007 03:05 PM
"My point was that maybe they can tell the difference between a real coyote, a howler, and a siren but they are all close enough to a coyote howl that they still answer for some reason. It's easy to believe coyotes respond to a howl IMMITATION because they think it's another coyote but how can you explain a coyote howling at an ambulance going down the highway IN VISIBLE SIGHT OF THAT COYOTE when he can clearly see the sound is not coming from another coyote? I've seen that happen. That coyote kept howling at the ambulance siren until it was out of sight. Anyone want to tackle that one?"
According to my ole buddy Boddicker......."they cant help themselves". His words.
He once told me that there is a chemical in the brain that is released and causes the response.
We dont know if it is frequency, volume, or what. I would guess it is a frequency, due to so many coyotes NOT responding to certain howls.
Who knows!
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 25, 2007 03:32 PM
I would like to think its was a reaction to the frequency that triggers a response. I have two dogs in the kennel out-back and when the noon,6:00, and the 9:00 whistle blows the dogs howl from start to finish. Now if i go outside and howl on my howler the dogs just look at me and don't howl...I just went outside to double check with the howler, no response from the dogs. The frequency must not be high enough..???
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 25, 2007 03:48 PM
I will once again disagree with Boddicker. They can help themselves, whenever they want. I use the same locating equipment all the time. Same sounds, same siren, same FoxPro, same howler I have had for several years. They howl when they want to and only when they want to. If it was a frequncy deal they would have to answer everytime your siren hit that frequency, and they don't always answer. And this is coyotes that I know are there. Some mornings during denning season I may have a good line on several bunches of coyotes (from previous days etc.) and when locating they may or may not answer. I have run a siren and my FP numerous times and got no answer then started glassing and right there they are. Right where they are supposed to be and well within hearing. The next day you may play your tunes and every son of a buck in the country will answer. They simply do not have to answer and they can help themselves. Bodicker is a great guy, but has written several things that I have seen that are just not true.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 25, 2007 04:09 PM
Cal Taylor,
Tell us about that female coyote you have there. When she howls does she sound high pitched and do a lot of yapping?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 25, 2007 04:16 PM
Cal i believe you are correct on youre statement that they howl when they want to. I have talked to farmers and some say they can here a coyote howl in the evening when the town siren blows, but they don't do it every time, i guess when the mood suits them..
I have gone out trying to locate at home and i have never heard a coyote answer back, they could be some of the time and maybe i can't hear them.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 25, 2007 04:20 PM
Do any of you guys think maybe the moon phase or Barametric pressure has anything to do with with the coyotes howling or not howling??
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted February 25, 2007 05:34 PM
And since all coyotes don't respond to other "actual" coyote howls, why should we expect them to respond to our best renditions every time?
I've witnessed this a few times, where I had a visual on a coyote that did not howl when other coyotes in the distance were!
So, I agree, just because they can hear another coyote, siren, noon whistle, human made howl, they simply won't respond sometimes!
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 25, 2007 05:48 PM
Rich, She doesn't yap much but she will answer about anything. The kids have even made her howl with a kazoo! She will bawl her head off, several times a day some days. When she fires up the corgi chimes in and the coyote dogs try to tear their pens down. And the barn cats head for the hills. It's a regular damn circus around here!
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 25, 2007 05:55 PM
(Steve Craig)"According to my ole buddy Boddicker......."they cant help themselves". His words.
He once told me that there is a chemical in the brain that is released and causes the response."
I believe it was Ed Sceery that said a coyote cannot howl a second time even though they want to and try, for about 5 minutes. I have seen this proven wrong but if it is a chemical in the brain that makes them howl we need to vaccinate here because they just won't answer a howl that often especialy in the daylight.
Interesting opinions always come up when howling is concerned.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 25, 2007 06:18 PM
TOM64,
I don't know whether Ed Sceery made that statement or not, but Major Boddicker did. I read the words in one of his pamphlets. Like Cal stated, the Major is a nice fellow and I like him but the man can be wrong now and then too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Guys,
In regard to coyotes responding to howls or not, I would like to add that coyotes often respond to a howl by approaching the sound silently. The lack of a vocal response to a howler is quite common during the daytime here in my area. They still respond though. I think we need to point out that coyotes sometimes come in silently when they hear a stranger in their territory. I don't hunt coyotes at night, but I think the danger of being busted while trying to locate coyotes with a howler, even at night is always there. I hope that I am making sense here.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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canine
Knows what it's all about
Member # 687
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posted February 25, 2007 06:46 PM
Makin sense to me Rich. When using howls to call, the only responses I get vocally from them are threat howls back at me. These are the ones that approach. These are first and last light stands. Middle of the day stands I have never had them answer me, but had them approach often.
One other thing I'm noticing is when I do get that threat howl response from them on first and last light stands, I can expect an approach. If the threat howl is joined with the rest of the pack yip howling seconds after I am warned by the first threat howl, they never approach. Even when they are upwind of my position. Even when I am sure they did not catch me entering my stand position.
I've tried everything in that situation. Threatening back, goin silent, pup distress and prey distress, nothing works for me. One thing I haven't tried is relocating on them, that might do it, I'll have to try it.
JD
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Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
Posts: 162 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted February 25, 2007 09:53 PM
I agree i have watched the "there vocal cords can't handle howling again for up to 20 minutes" (not direct quote) be proven wrong several times.
If someone can produce the howler that makes them respond everytime they're going to be rich! It could be the time of the year (i have a lot better odds locating in June than in december) it could be the frequency, could be it's friday night and everybody's gettin down tonight. That is a question that i believe we are all still going to be asking with our last dying breath ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 26, 2007 04:50 AM
It could be the time of the year (i have a lot better odds locating in June than in december)
I think that is because of the agression of those pup rearing pairs.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 26, 2007 06:09 AM
I agree with Cal, if they want to answer you, they will. If they don't want to, they don't have to. Many times I have had the same group of coyotes chime up twice within 5 minutes. I don't know where some of those bogus theories (coyotes can't respond within 5 minutes) come from. Heck, I've seen them howl continually for extended periods of time.
Due to the way sound carries on certain days and due to the moods of coyotes, I have seen numerous times when close coyotes would not answer me but then a far group of coyotes answered me, then the close group of coyotes would answer the far group. That was important to learn because I have used this to my advantage before by trying to locate an area at different distances and it works.
Why that close group wouldn't answer, I don't know but they didn't until another group of coyotes answered me.
As a rule of thumb, close coyotes will not respond but simply show up, mid range coyotes will answer short and show up, long range coyotes will answer long and not show up. Before someone tries to chisel that in stone and prove it wrong, I've seen that rule of thumb broken many times myself. It's a rule of thumb carved in soft soap.
~SH~
[ February 26, 2007, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 26, 2007 06:29 AM
I might add that I enjoy reading a thread with a lot of observations as compared to theories.
~SH~
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