This is topic no signs of rubbing yet? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 17, 2007, 07:08 PM:
O.K., so in KS. last weekend, nearly every coyote showed signs of rubbing, 16 turned in at a small local calling contest. I took two male and 1 female this a.m., and picked up two more male from a rancher friend of mine that he shot a couple days ago, and no signs of rubbing on any of them.
Does this heavy snow and cold effect breeding season dates? Although, in the past years, I could swear that the coyotes around here always had a later start to dogging, then in KS and other states anyways!
Do coyotes, like deer, have that much difference in breeding dates across the country?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 17, 2007, 11:33 PM:
Here in Mn. the deer breed in late Oct.- early Nov. and the does come into second heat in Dec.
Our coyotes don't breed untill Mid. Feb --first week of March. If we have snow on the ground we will hunt them till the middle of March.
Rubbing has nothing to do with breeding. The loss of guard hairs on the shoulders and hipps is from the fur freezeing down at night when the temps are below 30's and alot of wind. The coyote gets up to go feed or what ever and breaks off or pulls the guard hairs that are frozen down. Severe rubbing can be from a coyote exiting a culvert or hole and coyotes that live in the thick stuff, we call it plum brush here or willows. Also as spring starts to approach they start the shedding process like a dog, deer, horses and so on. "No documented proof here just what i see happening in the coyote world"
Rich H. studies the coyote vocals and so fourth and i study the conditions of the fur and how a coyote moves through-out his territory and then i try to kill a few. This year we got snow very late in the season and the snow we did get was'nt very much and the fur is the best i have ever seen for my area. I have five more i have to put on the stretchers and then its off to the fur buyer....
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 18, 2007, 04:35 AM:
I question that the fur freezes down at night! If the animal is still alive, hence still warm, why would it freeze down. Wouldn't it instead actually thaw slightly and continually until the coyote rose? I mean, we've all seen where elk, deer, and coyotes have been bedded down, and there is a thawed depression where they layed! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 05:51 AM:
I've seen a boatload of tamped down [coyote & Red], bedded spots in the snow. Can't say, I ever seen hair on those spots. [not to say that doesn't happen]. Often those days were on below zero WC hunts.
Anyway, I believe these rubbed guard-hairless areas[specifically, on the shoulders] are caused by mating rituals mostly. Secondly, by coyotes passing through tight spots.
I also believe, coyotes do alot of rolling on marked areas[dead prey] & scent posts. All 3 playing a factor, in hair loss, IMO.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 05:56 AM:
When Red's or coyote are bedded. Their shoulders are not touching the ground. I've posted many pics of bedded coyotes on PM. The proof, is in the pudding ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 18, 2007, 06:04 AM:
"When Red's or coyote are bedded. Their shoulders are not touching the ground. I've posted many pics of bedded coyotes on PM. The proof, is in the pudding"
-----------------------------
Pretty much true here also. Minnesota coyotes must sleep on their backs? I wonder if they freeze down a lot up there? Can't get up until january thaw?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 06:35 AM:
We've owned a male German Shepherd & a male Belgian Malinois[sp?]. They both would roll on scent posts & dead animals.
Mostly useing the sides of their muzzle/cheek area. Once on the ground over the scented spot/carcass. They would grind the tops of their shoulders, onto the scented area, while on their back.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 06:41 AM:
I'll post a few pics. Here's a large coyote bedded on a fenceline drift.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/471375-big.jpg
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 06:44 AM:
Another coyote, samo, samo. Coyote's head is up, eyeing me.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/472747-big.jpg
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 06:48 AM:
Balled-up coyote, between the corn rows[right below the horizen, Right-center of pic]. Head tucked under it's tail.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/470820-big.jpg
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 06:51 AM:
If the snow is hard, sometimes they'll lay right on top. Other times, they'll dig a bed down near the soil & tamp down the loose snow before laying down.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 18, 2007, 06:54 AM:
I'm not saying there is a hand full of hair where the coyote has bedded, but if you look close you will see them.
"Minnesota coyotes must sleep on their backs"
Ya thats funny Rich! Actualy the coyotes leg and six inches of it from the Knee up is what touches the the ground or snow, also depending on how deep the snow is.
2dogs; look closer at youre pic's and then look at a coyotes pelt, the proof is in the pudding.
Coyote fur is very dureable its not going to wear down 2-3" from a little breeding. Have you ever seen a full length fur coat that was rubbed from wearing it! Some-one posted on here saying that there is a very small window for the coyote to breed, 2-4 days. Like i said at the top there are other causes of the fur becomeing rubbed and nateral fur shedding, the trapping term i believe is springgy.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 18, 2007, 07:00 AM:
We must have been typeing at the same time.
Nice pic's, but how can you see how much of the coyotes fur is exsposed to the snow or touching the ground in those pic's. No proof there at all!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 18, 2007, 07:04 AM:
TA, I've been less than 50' from a bedded coyote. I don't have cataracts LOL!.
I believe this "courting" of 2 coyotes is alot longer than just a couple of days. Unless she's a tramp ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
. IE; more wear & tear on the shoulder quard-hair
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on February 18, 2007, 07:12 AM:
I don't think that the breeding ritual is that tough on fur. Up hear it is more due to sunflowers, brush (no snow) and probably some of the freezing and thawing and pulling it out.
In a recent conversation with Steve Allen the former Fur Bearer Manangement supervisor he estated that the average time for female coyotes to be in heat in ND is Feb 10-20
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on February 18, 2007, 07:28 AM:
Brush and such does a lot of damage in brushy area's coyotes fur get's rubbed out earlier than in non brushy areas. in southern Saskatchewan the coyotes are often rubbed by the end of jan.
Female coyotes will get bite marks above there tail when breeding gets into full swing.
I have seen where coyote fur is froze to the ground in there beds.
A week of warm weather will take fur from good to trash once you get past the middle of Jan.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2007, 09:55 AM:
"Minnesota coyotes must sleep on their backs"
Ya thats funny Rich!
--------------------------
yep, funny is the word alright. I snicker just thinking about it. On really cold days when wind is blowing, minus 40 windchill factor, coyotes being froze to the ground and all, must make it much easier to catch em with a truck anyway?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 19, 2007, 10:47 AM:
Here's a fresh coyote bed from today.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/475223-big.jpg
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 19, 2007, 10:50 AM:
There is the coyote laying on that bed. Around 190yrds out. I owed this coyote, so I shot over it's back
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 19, 2007, 10:53 AM:
TA,
I thought we were talking about "guardhair" Not under fur.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2007, 01:34 PM:
2dogs you don't know what you are talking about and i will leave it at that.
Rich; The snow in most of the fields is too deep for trucks, but hay the snowmobile does a good job of flatting them out when they are frozen down...
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2007, 03:07 PM:
TA,
Do they yip excitedly when they see you coming or is it just kind of THUMP !!!!! and a few ki-y's?
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 19, 2007, 03:57 PM:
O.K., so if the fur does freeze down, how come the coyotes around here haven't been loosing fur all winter long. The snow has been deep since before Christmas, and we set record cold a few weeks ago, -18 degrees! Why haven't I seen any signs of "rubbing" from deep snow and cold temps.?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 19, 2007, 04:30 PM:
Because its bullshit, thats why. They rub here too this time of year, every year. We dont have those extreme temps, and until this year, very little snow or ice for several years.
I dont know the exact cause of it, but freezing off is laughable. Why wouldnt it freeze off in Dec and Jan?
I would guess it has more to do with mating.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2007, 04:31 PM:
TRnCO,
You don't see it because it really don't happen much. In all my years of hunting and trapping, I have seen ONE, yep ONE red fox with end of his tail frozen down. That was because it was caught in one of my traps and couldn't move very much. I have seen exactly Zero coyotes frozen down. Seen a lot of cockelburrs stuck in coyote fur, and seen a lot of em with guard hairs and flank fur rubbed from mating ritual though. Seen a lot of coons with fur rubbed real bad from crawling in and out of den tree holes too.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 19, 2007, 04:38 PM:
Seen lots of beavers rubbed this time of year from rollin around in huts too. Again, from mating.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2007, 04:44 PM:
Andy L,
THAT kinda makes me wish I lived a beaver's life.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 19, 2007, 04:53 PM:
Never thought about that. Rollin around in a hut with a beaver wouldnt be bad, eh?
Two legged beaver, you damned pre-verts. LOL
[ February 19, 2007, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2007, 05:10 PM:
The coyote dose'nt freeze down to the point that it can't move, thats just the conclusion that Rich came to. What happens is some of the hairs freeze down and get broken off every time a coyote beds down, its a gradule process that goes on all winter. Plus you have the rubbing from going through tite areas in the brush and so on and as spring approaches they also start to shed there winter coat like a dog.
If you guys were putting up the fur and would compare the hides from one taken in Nov, to one taken in Dec, Jan, Feb, March and layed them side-by -side you would see the difference.
Most of you proably don't so you are'nt going to see what i'm talking about.
I hunt fox and coyotes for the fur, i always have. When i take my hides in to sell i want to know why this one brings high dollar and the next less. Most of you are so wrapped up with the calling and vocals of the coyote and know nothing else.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2007, 05:17 PM:
Andy; I don't know about the beaver where you live, but here the fur is its best in the spring and thats why we have what is called spring beaver season. Tim B. can confirm this.
Rich: most callers walk out from there truck to make a stand and when finished walk back to the truck and move on. What could you possibly see from doing this?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 19, 2007, 05:40 PM:
I havent trapped beavers, other than a few just playin, in several years. Best fur was always earlier. Late Feb and March alot of rubs started showing up. I used to wonder if it was from just being in the huts when the ponds iced over. Sometimes go for days and no bubble trails, just feeding off the food caches. But then when global warming hit, LOL, the rubs still showed up around this time.
Same with coyotes.
Hmmmmmm.
Your not the only one on earth that ever put up fur TA.
[ February 19, 2007, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2007, 05:55 PM:
"Rich: most callers walk out from there truck to make a stand and when finished walk back to the truck and move on. What could you possibly see from doing this?"
--------------------------
I don't recall exactly how many coyotes I have watched come to my calls and get real dead when my bullet struck home. It was a hell of a lot of them though, and maybe even more than that. I have probably forgotten more about coyotes than you will ever learn sir. I have called em, trapped em, snared em and skinned em but never ran one single coyote to death with a pickup truck. I am pretty dang proud of that fact sir.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2007, 06:56 PM:
TA .17 Rem,
You are pretty much right on the money here. The reason coyotes rub has very little to do with breeding. There is plenty of rubbed coyotes before they even start breeding. Most coyotes are bred during the last week of Feb., they have a 63 day gestation, and most pups are born the first week of May.
What happens is as the winter progresses, the hair gets longer and more brittle. Most hair is lost while rubbing against brush and some is lost while bedding on snow and ice as TA has explained. When they bed down, the snow melts under them from the heat of their bodies. As they move their body from a thawed area to a frozen area, these hairs will freeze into the area that was just thawed which is now freezing due to repositioning of the body. When the coyote repositions itself, small amounts of hair on the hips freeze to the thawed ground and are pulled out when the coyote moves again. The reason it doesn't happen earlier is because the hair is not as long or as brittle earlier in the year making it less apparent.
Beaver are at their best in January and February, not earlier. They don't usually break off until spring. Most beaver spend their time grooming and eating, not rolling around in their dens.
The three B's are all late primers. Bobcats, Badger, and Beaver.
~SH~
[ February 19, 2007, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 19, 2007, 07:16 PM:
TA 17 Rem,
Care to compare fur checks for the last few years? I have broke the 10k mark for the last three years in a row and am on track to do so again this year.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 19, 2007, 07:48 PM:
Well if were talking hip/butt fur. Perhaps a few guardhairs may get broken/froze to a bed. But not shoulder or back fur.
I've missed a boatload of coyotes over my yrs. I go to the bedded spot. To see where my missed bullet hit. I've yet to see fur froze on a bed.
TA, I was hunting coyote since 1968 & Red's before that. You don't know me obvioiusly or you wouldn't be spouting off. What you think, I don't know.
[ February 19, 2007, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2007, 08:46 PM:
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 28, 2010, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2007, 09:08 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 20, 2007, 04:16 AM:
TA,
Again your "assuming". Your Wrong on your assessment of what I pay attention to. When it comes to coyotes.
I pay close attention. BTW, I do/have knelt down & looked closely @ their bed. So now you know a little more about what you assumed.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 20, 2007, 06:45 AM:
I'm not that much of a student of everything relating to coyote, but I know this much, fur (small amounts) can freeze in a bed, and fur from a dead coyote will stick in the bed of a pick up. I think there might be a difference in "beds" like curling up when the thermometer is dropping, and such, depending on a short nap at dawn, or who knows, but I know there are conditions where a small amount of guard hairs or whatever will stick to the ground.
The fact that some of us have seen this and some have not doesn't prove a lot. I am speculating that where the temperatures stay below freezing for days on end, there might be less melting and refreezing under the animal?
For that matter, I am pretty sure that parts of the bed of a pick up can be warm from the exhaust pipe and that may account for fur sticking to the metal bed? I don't know if that's the only condition, but I have seen bedding on bare ground where minute amounts of hair are stuck to rocks, in total absence of snow, which is a normal condition in northern Nevada. This is not to say that it doesn't get damned cold up there, but might be very little snow on the ground, but it gets real frosty during the night.
from Peoria
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 20, 2007, 07:15 AM:
Best beaver fur I caught was always Dec and Jan, maybe early Feb.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 20, 2007, 08:40 AM:
CT: "Care to compare fur checks for the last few years?"
In fairness, you need to compare all variables. Coyote population, access, terrain, hunting pressure, geography, habitat, weather, and value of coyote hides in that area.
If you didn't have a bigger coyote fur check, under normal coyote populations, than someone in Minnesota WITH AN EQUAL EFFORT there would definitely be something wrong because the two areas are not the same.
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic here and looking for a rise because I know you realize you need to compare apples to apples.
I wouldn't want to compare my coyote take to and equal effort around Midland, TX would you?
Andy there is two months difference between December and Feb. Beaver in December are nowhere near the quality of beaver in January and February. Not even close. Beavers reach the peak of their primeness in the spring but usually they start getting bit up due to territorial fighting. Best beaver I have taken have been in January and February. Far better than December and they're not even close to being good in November. The best beaver are usually pulled through thick ice. Ask any fur buyer WITH EXPERIENCE. They'll take the January beaver any day.
~SH~
[ February 20, 2007, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 20, 2007, 09:34 AM:
Well, for one thing, Cal is racking 'em up ($) on trapped cats, based on tidbits I have gleened, here and there. I don't know, Minnesota is farms and Wyoming is pretty much open range, right?
I have always believed that certain places are better than others, if we are talking sheer numbers? The few times I have hunted Wyoming, I was dissappointed in that the amount of called animals is much higher in northern Nevada and eastern Oregon, and in certain parts of California and Arizona. Granted, I have not hunted extensively, east of Utah, but I don't think the numbers are comparable to what we have out here.
The talk here seems to be a matter of east versus west, insofar as rubbed coyotes in February. I always had the impression it is a north/south difference, based on when they seem to be pairing up? I don't know, never kept records, or anything?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 20, 2007, 09:39 AM:
Cal,
How many Bobcats are in that fur check though at 300-500+ bucks a cat.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 20, 2007, 09:45 AM:
I just averaged $290 on a string of cats and my friend $300.
~SH~
[ February 20, 2007, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on February 20, 2007, 10:26 AM:
I only averaged $200 on the three I caught. Two were kinda small yet. All were December cats. Our season ended after 5 weeks due to the area quota being hit so soon.
After reading what Cal has to say about the subject, I'm considering a couple days of cat insuruction from Ogorman this summer.
I see how it could pay for itself.
Brad
Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on February 20, 2007, 10:53 AM:
This year,I noticed the coyotes rubbing early,or a little more damage than usual,towards the end of Dec.We had alot of rain,followed by freezing temps on and off between nov. and the end of dec.,where we normally have snow.We did have a couple inches of snow in nov.,but the rain turned it into ice,and hard pack,just miserable weather.I've seen in the past a few hairs left behind in beds.I also suspect when the rains came during the day,then froze hard at night,that wet or damp fur is sticking to brush with ice on it and breaking the guard hairs off.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 20, 2007, 04:41 PM:
My point was that TA seemed to to think he was the only one that had ever put any fur up. I was making the point that I had spent a little time humped up over a fleshing beam as well. I'm heading there as soon as I'm done writing this.
As for these rubs you guys are talking about, it seems strange to me the pattern that occurs if it is from freezing hair. The frozen hair explains the broken hair late in the season when they get pretty ratty down the sides. But to me it doesn't explain the true rub bars that they get across the hips. That pattern is too definite for me to belive that it is from freezing down or from the brush. Alot of our coyotes don't see much brush. Anyway I do have a few cats, but am getting paid to trap and snare coyotes so that has been my focus the last 45 days, and I am tired of the cold and then warm weather, (it's hard on snared coyotes laying in the sun) so I am full up of sorting through part mange, part rubbed, green bellied water headed stinking coyotes. But I do have a few put up. Hope our cat market is better than South Dakota and Montana, or I'm not going to do as well as I have in the past. We have a sale in March so I'll see then I guess.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 20, 2007, 05:08 PM:
Cal,
I was just messin with ya.I just know you knocked the hell out of the cats last year.
My brother just went to a sale in Nephi,Utah and he said cats seem to be down in price here in Utah too,Said there were alot of cats to be sold to.Coyotes were up though which was good for us.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 20, 2007, 05:39 PM:
Cal: I know i'm not the only one who puts up fur.
Its not talked about much on this board so its pretty tuff to put a number on how many who do put up fur. I could take a poll on it but i'm affraid it would fall into the same catogory as 17 rem.'s and road hunting so i won't go there.
I know you have much better fur in Wyoming so the prices must be around 35.00 and up. Coyotes here are fetching 30-35.00 for finished fur....
I hope you do well on the cats. good hunting..
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 20, 2007, 05:43 PM:
Speaking of cats i heard that Q and RShaw are getting a few in Texas. They have 3-4 more days of hunting and i wish them well..
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 20, 2007, 06:23 PM:
Just to make ya'll feel better, the best offer I've seen here is $6.00 tops, for stretched and dried coyotes and $85-100 for bobcats.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 21, 2007, 12:38 PM:
Tom,
I think we are going to sell our cats this weekend to the same guy we sold to last year our top cats brought $100...He said $125 for a top cat this year. I will let you know how we do. Kelly
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 22, 2007, 09:34 AM:
It has been thawing quite a lot around here in the past few days. Those coyotes that were frozen down out there are pretty happy about it too.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2007, 09:53 AM:
Rich,
It was so cold the other day I saw a rabbit pushing another rabbit to get him started.
Thaz funny rat thar....
~SH~
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 22, 2007, 02:13 PM:
Wiley E,
I think I saw them two rabbits bounce through here this afternoon. Fur was rubbed real bad on that front one. Probably been froze down too long, but I ain't sure.
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 24, 2007, 06:13 AM:
Shot another big 'ol male yesterday morning, and still no obvious visual signs of rubbing? With all the warm thawing day temps. and cold freezing night temps., I'd have thunk that we'd have some frozen down fur by now! Hell, at this rate, I might keep on hunting another couple weeks.
On a side note, thank God I'm on call today, one hell of a blizzard going on right now, hunting would not be an option today!!
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2007, 01:41 PM:
[ March 28, 2010, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2007, 01:58 PM:
A few more pic's... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0454.jpg[/IMG]] 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0456.jpg[/IMG]] 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0459.jpg[/IMG]] 
[URL= 
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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 27, 2007, 04:06 PM:
Today we shot two females and it looks like they are ready for breeding.
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