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Author
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Topic: Uphill/Downhill, Crosswind/Downwind, etc.
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Dsmith7136
Knows what it's all about
Member # 732
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posted January 11, 2007 10:53 AM
That "Looking Around" thread seems to have gotten off topic, and I don't want to be the guy to re-direct it, but I still have some questions regarding the move/don't move, uphill/downhill, upwind/downwind discussion it triggered.
Maybe some background is in order, though. I'm strictly a recreational caller and, while I've learned a few tricks on my own over the years, I'm an admitted amateur who relies heavily on the basics as taught to me by Major Boddiker 25 years ago. In summary:
1.Call where you know coyotes live/hunt/hide.
2.Hunt into the wind.
3.Hide in shadow, or with the sun at your back whenever possible.
4.Always break up your outline. Sit in front of cover; not behind it. Camo is overrated; it helps, but it's not the cure-all many believe it to be.
5.Call into or across the wind but never, never, never leave your downwind unprotected.
6.Movement attracts attention; keep it to a minimum.
7.Be flexible; expect the unexpected because none of this is cast in stone.
I tend to think of violating any of Major's basic rules as committing one of the seven deadly sins - except for the weasle clause he threw in there: "Be flexible ..."
Consequently, I always try to pick my stands based on Major's "basics," but when conditions dictate, I've learned it may be okay to break a rule or two.
I honestly don't remember anything about an uphill/downhill stand being preferred, though I may have missed that particular detail.
Still, if I've correctly understood the original "Looking Around" topic, it suggests that an uphill hide is preferred when calling coyotes. I've heard/read exactly the opposite where bobcats are concerned.
Is that true? And, if so, why?
To put it another way: If I'm in a known target environment, hidden, upwind, in the shadows with the sun at my back, etc. etc., how much difference does it make if I'm up, or downhill from from my intended quarry?
And the reason I'm asking is because I just secured permission to hunt a property where the rancher recently watched a deer kick the snot out of a pair of bobcats that rushed a small herd of mulies, and where I watched a pair of coyotes hunting ground squirrels 3 days later - all four of them way up the side of a very steep brush-covered hill at the far end of a wide open hayfield.
I'm too old, too fat, and too lazy to climb this hill (it's a steep mutha, and I have artificial knees), but I can hide in a small stand of cottonwoods about halfway across the hayfield in the morning with the wind and sun in my favor. The critters would have to come downhill and cross 100 yards of snow covered hayfield to present a "sure" thing (under 200 yds) shot.
I'm thinkin' this is one of those times I should "be flexible." What do y'all think?
Tawk to me.
[ January 11, 2007, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Dsmith7136 ]
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Beware the man who shoots just one gun...
Posts: 44 | From: Loveland, CO | Registered: Nov 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 11, 2007 11:31 AM
Dsmith,
A few comments to your questions;
As for camo & shadows. I believe thats all relative to the local coyotes & their landscape. They know it quite well[what belongs, what doesn't].
I've had them pick me out, wearing all White on snow covered ground, from afar. while I was motionless. My "Whites" are not "always exactly" the same color White as the snow.
Sometimes, I cast a shadow, other times not. So, what did they see? They seen more then what we'd like to think, IMO.
As for calling up hill. From what I recall, the majority of the ones I called, came up hill.
I've watched many coyotes on the move, appeared to be hunting, ground scenting, digging & scanning. They mostly hunt quartering across the wind....Why? My opinion is, because they don't like wind blowing directly in their ears & on their face.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 11, 2007 11:58 AM
quote:
Still, if I've correctly understood the original "Looking Around" topic, it suggests that an uphill hide is preferred when calling coyotes. I've heard/read exactly the opposite where bobcats are concerned.
Is that true? And, if so, why? (Dsmith)
All you will ever get are opinions, which DO have value. This is not a discipline where there is a sum total, one correct answer.
So, with those caveats out of the way....in my opinion, calling a coyote uphill is the advantage. Additionally, calling a bobcat UPHILL is by far the most successful. I don't know where you heard otherwise, but I would love to see somebody defend that opinion.
Good hunting. LB
edit: the above comments are in error, (as to my personal opinion) and I attempt to correct myself a little later in this thread. read on~
[ January 12, 2007, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32384 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 11, 2007 12:24 PM
Dsmith7136,
I keep thinking about that 300 yards of field that is barren of any cover, that exists between your hidey hole and the expected predators. I'm not familiar with colorado coyotes, but if I expected to call my Iowa coyotes across that much open ground then I would be there before first light in the morning. When it got light enough for me to see fifty yards, I would then start calling. Coyotes (and probably cats also) think it is still dark because their eyes are still adjusting. For that reason, they will often come merrily across that barron field in search of the rabbit.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 11, 2007 12:32 PM
Dsmith7136,
I'm making two posts out of this beccause I type so slow. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) In the situation you describe, it doesn't sound like you have many choices in calling stands. If you could get closer to the cover, or inside the cover, your chances would be better. This is especially true for the cats. Cats don't seem to be as spooky of human odor, but they do depend on the heavy cover for comfort zone. If you could call at night, and were set up for such, you would be in perfect shape in that field.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 11, 2007 12:59 PM
clarification: if you can call it that? I don't know what uphill means, in Kansas? In most other places, uphill is a distinct and rather abrupt rise in elevation. Here, where I live in the city of Upland, the ground slopes to the south at a rather consistant rate of about twenty feet per acre. This topographical feature may or may not be considered a "hill" in Kansas?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32384 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 11, 2007 01:18 PM
In most instances, I would rather call a coyote uphill than down. I like being just over a hill top where I can look down and across valleys. Being above my quarry gives me a better view of incoming critters, and the call sounds carry further. Sound does not carry over hill tops worth a hoot either. When calling tight cover, I prefer calling cross-wind but I always try to keep a sharp eye down-wind. An electronic caller can be a big help when calling the thick stuff. I like to place the caller upwind of a cedar thicket or brush choked gully while I sit crosswind some fifty yards or more. Coyotes come in downwind of the sound while I am safely crosswind and out of the scent cone.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted January 11, 2007 01:37 PM
I'm not sure on how big youre hills are but here are a couple pic's of the hills i have called coyotes up and down from. I like to walk down the hill aways so i have something behind me for a backing. In one of the pic's i called a coyote off of one the hills on the other side, the coyote went down the hill and crossed the valley and came up the hill i was on.. http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0307.jpg[/IMG]]  http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/IMG_0303.jpg[/IMG]] 
[ January 11, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5631 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted January 11, 2007 02:03 PM
Coyote on the creek bottom, around 600yrds out.
[ January 11, 2007, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted January 11, 2007 02:26 PM
I think the toughet part about these "uphill/downhill threads" is everybody has a different idea of what uphill is. Depending on what the geography is like where they call coyotes. A guy who calls the flat-lands thinks bringing a coyote partway up a 100' foot knoll is calling a coyote uphill.
Looking at TA pics, I can't see any reason why a coyote wouldn't easily come up any of those hills far enough to offer a good shot if a caller is setup just below the skyline with a good view of any approaching coyotes.
I have many times tried to bring coyotes up to the tops of canyons that criss-cross this part of the world and have found its difficult to entice a coyote to make a 800 foot vertical climb to the ridgetop. I find the same thing when the snow gets over about 8" deep and the coyotes can't travel on top of it. The effort the coyote has to expend to go check out a distress call isn't worth it. I find if I you drop down closer to a coyotes elevation they will be more likely to come to the call.
Dsmith, If it twer me I wouldn't climb the hill either. Set up in the just like you explained before daylight. Those coyotes likely hunt that alfalfa field often.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 11, 2007 02:35 PM
In regards to Tim's photos, they are actually neutral, you could make a case for setting up a stand, depending on wind currents, just about anywhere, according to the first pic. Of course a coyote will negotiate the undulating terrain and arrive at your stand, assuming that you have a decent view, and set up with a bit of elevation. I would expect the animal to approach from within the drainage, and not come over the hill, behind you, mainly because the sound wouldn't carry very far, behind you, when seated on a sideslope.
Now, in the second photo, this is where I would not think the percentages are very good to make a stand from past the treeline and calling into the hills. I should think it would be a far better bet, to sit somewhere just high enough for a good vantage point, and call the critter from that wash, uphill in your direction.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32384 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dsmith7136
Knows what it's all about
Member # 732
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posted January 12, 2007 12:34 AM
Wow, Guys. Y'all are extremely helpful. Thanks. With regard to TA17's first photo, if you'll look at that big obvious hill located dead center, rear in the photo, "my" hill looks very similar but is considerably steeper and, I'd guess, taller too, though it's difficult to say for sure. It's definitely got more cover - mountain mahoghany, rabbit brush, sage, big boulders, etc. There are a few short pines in the mix.
Now, when you come to the creek bottom (I assume that's a dry creek at the bottom front of the photo), imagine a hay field/pasture from that point clear out to the front edge of the photo and beyond, and you'll have a good idea what my hill/field/situation looks like.
A 12-foot tall fence runs up the left side of the mountain from the bottom clean over the top and into the next drainage (the guy used to raise elk here).A brushy gully (ravine)parallels the fenceline almost perfectly, top to bottom.
Out in the field, about 100-150 yards from the bottom of the mountain and directly in line with that gully lies a stand of 4 or 5 cottonwoods with tangled brush and boulders clustered about.
I'm planning on making my stand there, but I still have to cross close to 100 yards of wide open field to get to that patch of cover. The bobcats and the coyotes mentioned in my first post were hanging out near that brushy ravine paralleling the fenceline 2-300 yards up the mountain.
The prevailing wind comes from the west (left in the photo) and morning sun would be from the lower right in the photo. I'd have wind and sun in my favor, but I'd still have to coax them critters down that mountain and at least part way across the field to get them in my comfort zone; I'm not a long shot guy. I like 'em 200 yards or under.
If I'm getting your drift, you think I might get the coyotes to come down to me but the cats are going to be a long shot. Does that sound right?
I'll let you know what happens. Shit - this is fun.
Dennis
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Beware the man who shoots just one gun...
Posts: 44 | From: Loveland, CO | Registered: Nov 2005
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted January 12, 2007 06:44 AM
Lets just say it this way. I like to call coyotes from an ELEVATED position, whenever posible.
With an electronic/remote caller, I still want to be elevated above the speaker, but I dont NEED the speaker in an elevated position, as long as I am elevated.
Cats, both lions and bobcats, I really dont think it makes any difference, but I prefer to call them DOWNHILL or SIDEHILL to my position, or my speakers position in elevated type country. Lions prefer to be above their prey when they hunt them. So do bobcats for that matter.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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bowjunkie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 887
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posted January 12, 2007 08:15 AM
well your in Co so hit the local DOW office get ya a spotlight permit and call em at nite cats seem to be alot easier to call in the dark... just remember ya can't shoot lions under a light
Posts: 35 | From: the high mountians | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dsmith7136
Knows what it's all about
Member # 732
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posted January 12, 2007 08:38 AM
quote:
Additionally, calling a bobcat UPHILL is by far the most successful. I don't know where you heard otherwise, but I would love to see somebody defend that opinion. ...
Leonard, I'm sure I read it on one of the other pred. calling sites and, if I'm not mistaken, it was in conjunction with a bit of video footage taken by one of the guys who produces video for sale. For the life of me I can't remember his name, but I'm almost certain he claimed it was easier to call a cat downhill than up.
I, of course, don't have clue never having called one at all - up or down, though I really have a jones to do exactly that.
Interesting game. You're right, everybody goes about this stuff differently.
Best,
Dennis
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Beware the man who shoots just one gun...
Posts: 44 | From: Loveland, CO | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2007 09:51 AM
My apologies! Correction. I must have had a senior moment, and it just dawned on me. Forget what I said previously.
Calling a bobcat DOWN from a mountain is prefered, and much more productive.
They are more difficult, if you are attempting to call them UP a slope.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (how embarassing) See how this stuff gets confusing, up, down crosswind, etc.?
Sorry for the bogus info, (can't believe I did that) LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32384 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 12, 2007 01:21 PM
Leonard,
You threw me for a loop with that one too.
I remember Mr Higins writing a post where he called a bobcat "all the way up the mountain", and this was something out of the ordinary.
I agree that one man's mountian is another man's molehill, all them places in the pictures look flat to me, you don't even need to rope up to travel there?
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted January 13, 2007 07:42 AM
Dmith,
Boddicker has given you some good advise. I like to have the elevation to my advantage as well but my conditions might be different than yours. Most of my stands are just off the horizon with my outline broken sun at my back with the shadows facing the coyotes I have located and the wind in my face or quartering away from the coyotes. Ideal is a bench that lays just below the horizon with no blind spots. If the country has a lot of long ridges, I approach from the side and call them over those ridges instead of allowing them to run along the tops just out of site until they get your wind. If you give the coyotes a geographical advantage, they will use it.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted January 13, 2007 08:52 AM
If we attempted to set up our stands with the sun at our back and the wind in our face we would feel fortunate to make one stand a week. In the chapparel covered, rolling washes of the desert, in many cases, we can only guess at the location of the coyotes and their approach route. They can and will approach our stands from any direction. We can only try to keep the sun out of our faces(not always an option) and keep someone covering the downwind especially if the coyotes can get there in a wash or over the crest of a ridge. We even have to keep an eye on our entrance route in most cases.
The same was often true down in the thick hollows of Mo. and Ar. If they exposed themelves during the day someone was likely to take a potshot at them. Calling them out of dense cover was not often successful, so we would go into their living rooms and call. Never certain which direction they would approach unless our backs were to an open pasture or a physical barrier.
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted January 13, 2007 07:33 PM
Rich, you are right about coyotes not exposing themselves much during the day here in Mo. The trouble I have here is not being able to watch close enough when I get in their comfort zone. If I am calling is some pretty thick stuff and can only see 50 yards downwind, that's not cutting the mustard. I hunt alone about 98% of the time so I am kind of handicapped. The saving grace sometimes here in Mo. is that many days from daylight until about 8:00 AM we will have little or no wind. Sometimes that saves me, but this fall/winter I am having turds for luck.
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 13, 2007 08:46 PM
Baldknobber,
My own stomping grounds here in western Iowa sounds a lot like yours. I have an electronic caller which sits upwind of coyote hidey holes and 50 yards or so cross-wind from ME. Although I begin most stands with a cow horn howler, the prey distress sounds come from the electronic caller. It has helped me kill more coyotes here.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted January 20, 2007 06:54 PM
Where I live in Kansas it's pretty much flat with the exception of the Sand Hills. The Sand Hills are just what they sound like (hills of sand) they are approximately 10-20 feet high and the top of one may be 100-200 feet away from the top of the next. But, there are some areas in Kansas that you could find terrain like in the first picture from Minnesota. Possibly in the North West or the Flint Hills. I think Cdog911 lives in The Smokey Valley but, I could be wrong. Anyway one end of The Smokey Valley is where Coronado Heights is located, this area actually has sand stone hills, they aren't huge but, they may rise 50-100 feet over a 1/4 mile. That is the western end of The Smokey Valley, I think Cdog911 lives on the eastern end where the Smokey Valeey meets the Flint Hills. So i'm sure he's going to have a little more hilly terrain.
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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