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Posted by albert (Member # 98) on January 05, 2007, 08:11 AM:
A recent post has made me start to wonder how many people sit absolutly still on a stand? I feel this is a big mistake. If you see the coyote before he sees you your chances of killing it have increased substantially.
Anyhow I feel that it is important to look around when you are calling, that seeing the coyote first is more important than remaining "still".
Comments
Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on January 05, 2007, 08:42 AM:
Albert, I'm certainly not the brightest duck on this website, but I sit as still as I can. When I move my head, I move it very slowly. I scan back and forth with my eyes before I move my head.If I have to move my arm, I move it very slowly. There's possibly a coyote out there looking at me from behind a bush that I just can't see. When I see a coyote approaching, I try to
wait until he goes behind an object before I move my rifle into position. Since you're a long time member here, I can't believe any of this is new to you. If you haven't already read Gerry Blair's book called "Predator Calling" used books are available through amazon.com. If anyone is interested in a new book, I located a source for them. I don't know how many they have left. Gerry Blair's writing is an adventure in reading. Lots of information in a pleasurable format. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ January 05, 2007, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Dusty Hunter ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2007, 08:57 AM:
Well, I tend to agree with Albert. Moving your head, as long as you are well camouflaged, and you are using a remote caller, is almost risk free, and has a lot of benefits, versus "tunnel vision".
By the way, you guys that missed the Huntmasters campout also missed an opportunity to chat with Gerry; like Bill Rice, shown here.
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS, Albert, email me your home address, I lost it.
[ January 05, 2007, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on January 05, 2007, 09:12 AM:
I guess I feel moving your head slowly is a big mistake. I like to cover my field of view (270+ degrees)at least once every 30 seconds.
You don't have to move your arms and rifle to look around. I agree once you spot the coyote you want to remain still as possible, but you still should be looking around for the second one that will sneak in on you.
Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on January 05, 2007, 09:16 AM:
Here's a story with lots of unintentional movement and I still got the coyote: I was hunting near a huge ravine on a high mesa. I walked in with the wind in my face and found a ridge to conceal myself by a juniper. I set the call out at a good distance away from me and began calling. About 10 minutes later, the batteries go dead. So I sit there another 10 minutes, or so. I slowly go out to retrieve my caller. Then I start to walk back past the stand. When I get near the top of the ridge, I see a coyote walking the flat behind the location I was calling from! I sit down, dig my heals into the dirt, lip squeaked to him. He stopped just long enough for me to take the shot. I guess the elevated stand contributed to him not spotting me as I was moving around so much. Interesting situation and one of the things I like about this sport so much.
[ January 05, 2007, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Dusty Hunter ]
Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on January 05, 2007, 09:32 AM:
Albert, You must have been putting in your post while I was writing my story. Thanks for clarifying. I'm going to incorporate your method in my hunting. Thanks.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 05, 2007, 10:19 AM:
I think a coyote is expecting to see a little movement so as long as your body shape is broken up and you move your head slowly. I had 2 come in behind me a couple of weeks ago, I was moving quite a bit looking way out in the pasture expecting something to circle downwind. When I called the stand off I eased around to get up and looked behind me directly into the sun. There they were about 150 yards away trying to figure out what I was. Too much movement ain't good but sitting like a statue moving only your eyes is counterproductive. Cows prevented a shot so I had plenty of time to learn from them and was surprised at how much I got away with.
We set up again New Years day and killed them both. I remembered Rich Higgins saying he never learned nothing from a dead coyote, very true.
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on January 05, 2007, 10:23 AM:
Right or wrong I don't know, but I try to keep still as possible.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2007, 10:36 AM:
You sound like a Democrat, Trip? No right or wrong, whatever works for you is what we are interested in.
I also keep as still as possible, BUT I move my head slowly and try to cover as much of the area as possible without twisting my body.
There is one situation where a coyote, or more likely, a cat can pick up on head movements. When the animal, and the decoy/caller is in a straight line with your position, beyond the caller and he can/might see you while looking directly at the caller.
Sorry for calling you disagreeable names. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 05, 2007, 10:48 AM:
I think I am with Dusty Hunter on this one. If you don't turn your head and look, then you are bound to lose some coyotes. If you can't see em, you can't shoot em.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 05, 2007, 11:17 AM:
You had better be danged good at reading cover if you plan on killing many coyotes from the one spot you're looking at when you lay into that call. I will note that the story above used an e-caller. That, by itself, gives you an advantage over the guy using the wind driven models that goes to flopping his arms with each huff through that call and who himself represents the source of the sound, versus the source being thirty yards away.
I position myself so the cover I'm calling to is centered in front of me. I try to make sure I have a lot of backing to break up my outline, even to the extent this year that I find myself seeking out low ground looking up versus high ground looking down more and more. I check the view before me to ID anything that might be mistaken for a coyote once I begin, then I start. As stated, I move my eyes a lot but I try to cover the entire view every 30-45 seconds if not even more quickly. It's astonishing how a coyote can pop up out of thin air and be on top of you before you can even react.
I do wish to add and ask one thing though. It has been my experience that coyotes responding to howls are almost easier to hold if you give them some movement. Whereas a coyote coming to distress will bust out at the first errant turn of the body, I've had many coyote actually become even more interested in what I am once I show them a moving hand of shift my foot. Much like you might do to pique a bobcat's curiosity on stand. I think it's because they heard a coyote and are looking for something coyote-sized as the source. In the absence of anything that size, they seem to get a bit nervous. A little bit of movement (non-threatening) seems to add another dimension to the picture forming in their head. Anyone else share that experience?
Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on January 05, 2007, 11:36 AM:
The sharing of information on this website is a very good thing. Sometimes I think it is easy to misunderstand people because the written word can be interpretted differently from the spoken word because there is no inflection or voice tone. I have always twisted my head slowly back and forth. Now I'll be more aware of the amount of time I use to scan the area.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on January 05, 2007, 11:37 AM:
At times it can be amazing what you can get away with on motion.
Lance
quote:
I have a lot of backing to break up my outline, even to the extent this year that I find myself seeking out low ground looking up versus high ground looking down more and more.
I'm picturing myself walking up a hill and raising my head to look up ahead and then back down to see where I'm walking. And then walking downhill and just lifting my eyes to see ahead and then lowing my eyes to see where I'm stepping. Much easier for me to see downhill and I'm sure it is for the coyote. IMHO, you're going to get pegged alot quicker if you call them downhill to you.
Dennis
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on January 05, 2007, 01:15 PM:
True Dennis, and because it's easier... do you think he may feel more comfortable coming downhill? Therefor more likely to commit to within range of the setup?
Similar to turkey hunting, wary gobblers are leary of coming DOWNhill to a call because their flight is restricted to the direction of the percieved danger. If they walk downhill and come upon a coyote they'll have to fly over his head or run uphill- both dangerous manuevres for a 25 pound bird. Find a way to call that bird uphill or out the ridge and you're much more likely to get a shot.
I try to keep from making a coyote do something he doesn't want too... this "Uphill Battle" is something I've noticed a few times this year with pressured hardwoods coyotes.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 05, 2007, 01:17 PM:
I try and target cats on alot of my sets and I try and move very little....I have even made mod's to lenghten my facemask to cover my hand movement. I THINK that cats tend to sit down in deeper cover if they see movement (instead of coming to the edge) - until they can figure out what they are looking at. I know when I hunt like this the coyotes I kill just seem to appear......Now when targeting coyotes my head is moving 160 degrees every 15-20 sec's (just timed myself looking shoulder to shoulder) and I pick the coyotes up much quicker...
Lance - I have had coyotes go into a trot towards me as I eased up my gun....I think they are committed and think they have found the easy meal...I have also had some turn to leave, but they can be stopped with a bark..
Albert - this is a good topic.
Regards
Kelly
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 05, 2007, 03:38 PM:
"IMHO, you're going to get pegged alot quicker if you call them downhill to you."
Point well taken, but when you don't have any kind of structure to hide in front of or behind and long rolling hills to hunt, you put by and make due with what's handed to you. Would you rather have a coyote see you skylined or see the coyote skylined as he tops the hill coming in?
As much as I would like to hunt from prone, it's infeasible here since your visibilty would be cut to less than five feet because of knee-high grass. (Shooting from hillside to hillside is out, too, since that range is easily and often 800 yards-+.) On the other hand, the aspect of view afforded by sitting low looking at an approaching sloped hillside isn't a whole lot different than that from the top looking across a valley, except that an approaching target is visible the whole time if you pick the right seat (compared to the last few hundred yards looking down a slope where the approaching coyote is effectively on a level plane with you and moves in and out of sight. This is good until you find the coyote has closed the range to kissing distance under cover of a roll on the hillside and you can't get a clear shot. Happens a lot here). We often employ this strategy by me sitting low in a drainage and Matt sitting where he can cover the most likely approach above the valley. We find a lot of coyotes find a comfort zone being able to respond to lunch under the cover of a valley where they won't be seen from the road. Best part? You've got an entire friggin' hillside for backing to cover your silhouette. If you cammy up well and sit tight, you'd be surprised at how effective a set up it can be. Not my humble opinion. Personal experience. And BTW, I'm not calling them off a cliff. In this area, a hill side may have a drop off less than a hundred feet over a distance of a half mile or more. Just another option for guys out there. Take it or leave it. But there are a lot of "rules" borne of longheld opinions that only serve to disqualify otherwise promising set ups. As I've told a lot of struggling callers: Take all the advice you've been given by so-called experts, consider each pearl that they told you never to do and give each of them a try. They usually told you never to do them because they were once told the same thing or it's a technique they use with success and don't want you catching on. In most cases, those nevers are things most of those people have no personal experience with and their effectiveness comes from the fact that if no one is doing it, it's the unique thing that no one else is doing that gives you the "edge". Case in point, I've got a post here that tells how I called the same pack twice Monday. How many times have you been told you can't do that. Ever. Just won't work. I peeled a half dozen coyotes last year that I missed the first round and went back an hour later and killed them. Never say never.
[ January 05, 2007, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 05, 2007, 04:15 PM:
Take Lance's big hill, for example. Your on top looking down. Position your head 24" off the ground, pan 180.
Go to the bottom of that hill, place your head 24" off the ground, pan 180.
Big difference in sight picture. Especially if there is any vegetation.
---------
Peripheral vision; If you tuck your chin, et slightly move it off center of your chest. Your sight picture will increase. Takes very little movement.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 05, 2007, 05:12 PM:
Lance, totaly off subject and maybe just plain stupid but... have you ever seen those antelope decoys that people supposedly walk behind while getting closer? I'm thinking a cow silohette for your cover. I know it sounds stupid but it might work. If you try it be sure and let me know how it works.
Posted by tooslow (Member # 1063) on January 05, 2007, 05:41 PM:
the hot setup on a sunny morning would be elevated with a brush backstop and the sun coming up behind you, this will give full moblity to scan and shoot without wory of movement. And with the brush behind you it would allow for a wrong direction critter a chance to die as well. I'm with LB you can't kill what you can't see, and no matter how hard I try I can't sit motionless which would alow any animal outside my tunnel vission to leave without the oportunity of tasting lead.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 05, 2007, 06:11 PM:
Tom, a while back on the Outdoor Channel, these guys were hunting blacktails in Alaska and their guide left them a couple goofy looking ballcaps that had oversized eye on the front above the bill and Mickey Mouse-like deer ears sewn to the sides. He had told them the hats would assist them in stalking closer to the deer. They laughed. At first. Upon trying them, they were amazed that they shot their first few deer (bow hunting) from under fifteen yards on open tundra-like habitat. They had the video to prove it. LOL Maybe a guy oughttra try that with a hat that has coyote ears on it. You go first and let me know how it works out. Oh,... and keep your head down.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 05, 2007, 06:25 PM:
Hey 2 dogs, welcome home.!!!
"Big difference in sight picture. "
Agreed. But it's what is in view that is important to me. I'm not a long range shooter, so shots over 300 yards could be as far as a mile where I'm concerned. LOL From that hilltop, I can see far and wide. I also stand out like a turd in a punch bowl. Even to a coyote 1,000 yards away. I can come down the hill a ways and same deal as far as my ability to shoot. From either side, because of no cover, I'm still a human shaped form on that hillside and have been busted by inbound bogies. If I stay low enough to avoid detection, I can see the coyote way the hell out there, but as he closes, he and I are on a level plane, even though that plane lies on a slant. Because of that. I often lose sight of him in the grass because he isn't tall enough to stand out. (Understand that our grass hides him easily, but me? Not so much.)
Now, go to the bottom of that same hill where you're looking level to slightly up into the opposite hillside. I usually try to set up just above rock bottom so there's a little bit of "flat" for him to go toward. If a coyote comes over the top, he's easy to see all the way down and well within the hot zone by the time he hits bottom with me. Kinda like watching a drive in movie.
If he comes around the flank, in the first place, I'm not at the bottom so I have some elevation (minimal) to keep me level with him, but more importantly, I have the entire state of Kansas behind me for backdrop. And often they do come in low, following the drainages as they wind themselves around and thru the hills to get to me rather than straightlining their way to me over hill and dell, skylining themselves as they go.
This setup works if you're using mouthcalls. If I'm using electronics, I would position the caller in the bottom and set up midway up the hill to gain vantage point and sit really still. The difference is that the sound has them focused on the bottom rather than on me as its source. Or, as I described above with my partner and me with him a bit higher as the sniper. Again, he's not the source and will be able to operate there without calling undue attention to himself.
Our coyotes don't like hills. They hang in the low drainages and travel on the hillsides. Given the chance, I'm sure they'd just as soon head to the cover of a weedy drainage rather than run up the side of a hill in front of God and everyone. And, just as has been offered respective to wind, give them what they want to do anyway. Grant them their sense of false security. And whack 'em when they fall for it. Sure, it's a bit unorthodox as setups go, but it works.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2007, 06:51 PM:
Admittedly, I scanned what Lance wrote a bit quickly, but all things being equal, calling an animal uphill is easier....in my experience.
To use a golf term I like, you have to play the lie, so there will be those situations where it makes sense to sit low and watch the elevated terrain. (read "hill")
On the other hand, better than half the time, my coyote will romp in from either side, rather than over the hill....where (I might add) he has great difficulty in hearing my call.
Another reason to slowly rotate my head side to side, I think?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 05, 2007, 07:58 PM:
Lance,
As you know, I stalk coyotes. Don't call much @ all. I've had many bust me [seeing my movement or hearing me] from afar. IMO, they hear like an owl.
I shoot from atop of "my hill" which is often across the valley from the coyote. As I stalk forward, "in a perfect World". My eyes & the top of my head are above my ridgeline, keeping an eye on the coyote.
This tactic reduce's my odds of a wasted walk.
When I go into crawl mode. I'll often raise my head roughly the height of a coyote's line of sight 24-28" give or take. If I can see his eyes, he can see mine.
The second coyote I called out. Busted me, as I was slowly panning/calling with my Tally-Ho. He pronked over a ridgeline from my 5:00[blindside] looking for the sound, he was around 75ft away.
We seen each other the same time. I was barely moving, wearing a Cabela Waterfowler Ghilli suit, sitting on deep CRP grass.
Yet, the coyote picked me out, very quickly. He went flat out. I commenced to empty my mag.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 06, 2007, 04:45 AM:
I believe that Cdog911 knows his area, and the coyotes who reside there. I also tend to believe the funny looking hat with big eyes above the bill and funky looking ears is something to ponder. The bad thing about looking like a wild animal however, is that another hunter may just shoot ya.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 06, 2007, 11:26 AM:
I believe we call that a mother in-law hat, only they usually have horns and come with a brown coat. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on January 06, 2007, 12:18 PM:
Not trying to say our area is harder to hunt than anyone else's but, I've hunted these Kansas Buffalo grass fiels almost all my life. If you tried to call a coyote up hill to you, you may never see him.
A person can kneel down in the prairie and you may not be able to see them from 20 feet away. A coyote coming up hill would be invisible. Coming down hill you could see the coyote or at least his location because you could see the grass moving.
Maybe different methods for different area's is the answer. For Lance's area, calling down hill sounds very appropriate to me.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 06, 2007, 03:46 PM:
I usually sit next to a clump of something or other on a hillside with the caller in the valley, not much to it, but I do have some areas similair to what Lance describes & they do change everything in respect to setup. As far as movement goes I think it`s a basic understanding that sitting still is a good idea but I always turn my head from side to side slowly...how else would you see the terrain?
Lance...I`ve had situations where I was busted because I moved, howled the coyote to a stop & then proceeded to raise my hand & shake it with every squeal I would give on a mouth call, the coyote would come back & end up within 100 yds although it takes a while & is hard to get your gun up with them being so fixated on you. I like what you said about the "rules". There are some basic things that typically apply to every stand but I`ve done a lot of crazy stuff on stands & some of them paid off even though NONE of them would be accepted as a good idea by the "experts".
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 06, 2007, 06:53 PM:
JD,
Sometimes, playing outside the box works well. Especially in the late season when all the rubes have been following those steadfast rules.
BigO,
If you won't say it, I will. Our coyotes can be a bit more frustrating that in most other places. I've seen some of the best callers I know - guys I have the highest respect for within the business and who I feel know more about this game than anyone - come here and go home with goose eggs. It's one thing to hunt coyotes that are called to by others. It's something else altogether to hunt coyotes that have endured pheasant hunters, quail hunters, deer hunters, coyote cowboys and their dog wagons, rifle hunters in trucks, ATV's, greyhounds, trail hounds, little old ladies heading to church a-packin' heat, etc., etc.. Most of our coyotes here are displaced at least once a week by humans and most of them have been shot at, if by nothing more than a load of #6 bird shot, by January. Higgins' theories about their comfort zones are even more important around here than in some areas and sometimes that zone is in the last place you would ever expect to find them.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on January 07, 2007, 08:09 AM:
I have to move or I'd miss approaching coyotes until it was too late.
I think camo is grossly overated in it's effectiveness....... until you start talking about face masks. In warmer weather that is often the only garment that I wear that actually has a camo pattern. I don't think the pattern is critical, it's just the way they make them.
[ January 07, 2007, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: JoeF ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on January 08, 2007, 12:18 PM:
Hopefully there's not any confusion on the difference between shilouetee and skylined?
Ya, those hills with the shoulders can make for some tough setups! Go over the top low and fast and sitdown and realize you can only see 30 yards, so getup and move down hill and sitdown and have the same thing happen again.
Dennis
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 09, 2007, 09:42 AM:
Lance: "I've seen some of the best callers I know - guys I have the highest respect for within the business and who I feel know more about this game than anyone - come here and go home with goose eggs."
Lance: "Case in point, I've got a post here that tells how I called the same pack twice Monday. How many times have you been told you can't do that. Ever. Just won't work. I peeled a half dozen coyotes last year that I missed the first round and went back an hour later and killed them."
Lance,
With talent like that, you could have really cashed in on those goose eggs at the St. Francis hunt and wrote an article about it in T&PC.
~SH~
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 09, 2007, 11:56 AM:
Scott, Hard for me to tell how far you have your tongue set into your cheek. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But, I'll back my earlier statement by saying that it's not something I have done on a predictable basis, but often enough to know that anyone who says it can't be done doesn't know what they're talking about. Best part? I've had other hunters with me almost every time, so this isn't one of those things that you pull off and no one is there to witness it on your behalf. Like that 600 yard shot in a stiff crosswind that no one is svere there to see and that you could never duplicate.
As far as competition hunting, no thanks. I ended up having Sat thru Monday off, but didn't know if I would have Sat and Mon off work until last Thursday night. Kinda hard to wing that entry fee when there's about an 80% chance you won't get the time off. More importantly, the kind of work you guys put into that hunt just doesn't look or sound like a lot of fun to me, and that's why I hunt. I'm glad you guys enjoy it and have it to do, but it isn't for me.
I did hope to do a piece on the hunt again but couldn't convince the editors to run it. So, I stayed home. We hunted part of the day both Saturday and Sunday and only saw two. They were both going the other way.
As far as the goose eggs, I'll stand behind that, too. The list is up to seven people that frequent the boards. They'll remain nameless.
As for us, we're running about 1 coyote seen in every three stands right now (66:181) and one killed in three seen (22:66) which is ahead of most people around here. We'd have not placed had we hunted the event.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 09, 2007, 03:16 PM:
Lance,
I don't know many serous coyote hunters who would say it (calling in the same coyotes in the same day) can't be done. It's done all the time by the guys I know. All it takes is a different sound and a different approach. No big deal!
As far as those goose eggs, I would locate the coyotes and approach them in low light with my shadow pointing straight at them so they couldn't detect my approach. Do it all the time across open flats. Long shadows pointing towards the coyotes you are approaching is the best camo pattern there is. Can I expect to see that quote in a future article? I would call from just below the horizon and shoot them with threepod shooting sticks. It wouldn't be goose eggs. If they are there, they can be called and shot it just takes the right combination of techniques. I certainly wouldn't call from the bottom and give them the visibility advantage.
Small wager on goose eggs and no you can't come with me. LOL! Just point me to the coyotes and I'll let you skin them. LOL!
~SH~
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 09, 2007, 03:41 PM:
quote:
Just point me to the coyotes and I'll let you skin them. LOL!
Don't do it Lance! He'll just scare them off dragging that damned sled of his and no one will get a shot!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 09, 2007, 03:51 PM:
quote:
I don't know many serous coyote hunters who would say it (calling in the same coyotes in the same day) can't be done. It's done all the time by the guys I know. All it takes is a different sound and a different approach. No big deal!
Good point. But my readers are usually relatively new to the sport, are not professional depredation people, and are just figuring a lot of that out. I don't write to the veteran callers because most of them think they know it all anyway.
quote:
Can I expect to see that quote in a future article?
Not without your consent. I've never knowingly plaegeurized anyone's ideas or commentary, if that's what you're inferring. Maybe not, but it's hard to read your tone in this medium. If I have, I'd be more than happy to defend myself because I offer my own insights. Not those of others. Those people that have been quoted in my pieces have been given full credit, or offered to let me use a comment and declined having their name included with it. Many of those that have been cited were and still are very deserving of the credit those articles brought to them. Should you ever want to offer some of your own personal insight and experience to an article that would benefit the readers of T&PC, you know where to find me. It would be my pleasure to do the writing and toot your horn on your behalf.
quote:
I would call from just below the horizon and shoot them with threepod shooting sticks.
I've hunted the sandhills and shortgrass prairie regions and have seen several instances where a three legged set of sticks is useful for those long shots. Around here, not so much. Two legs get hung up in the grass. Three legs would be a nightmare. I know - I have a set and I tried them in that configuration once. Yech.
There's a bit of a difference hunting off a hill that drops a hundred feet relatively abruptly - I guess you might call it a bluff - and a hill that takes a half-mile or more to drop thirty feet. Especially when that hill is covered by big bluestem head high and then some. Even if you can see thru it to see the coyote, threading a bullet through it is next to impossible. Being able to see down a slope from the top looking through the cummulative mass of vertical grass stalks takes a good eye. And an even better shot. Sitting just across from the very bottom offers you a chance to shoot (kind of ) down into the grass as the target checks up on a hillside. I just don't think some of you guys get the situations I'm trying to derscribe here. Must be an east-west thing. I've had guys that have seen this thread from eastern KS/ IA/ IN, etc., e-mail me and tell me they get it and agree.
As far as being able to make that 400 yard shot, I'm not that good, so I have to devise techniques that get me into a postion to still get the coyote within my comfortable range. This is just one technique. A "take it or leave it" kind of thing.
I guess you should use what works in your area and I'll use what works in mine and we can leave it at that.
And no, I won't skin your coyotes. I don't like skinning my coyotes, as it is.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 09, 2007, 04:40 PM:
Lance: "I don't write to the veteran callers because most of them think they know it all anyway."
I beg to differ. I don't know any accomplished coyote callers that think they know it all. In fact most would suggest that the more they learn, the more they realize how much they don't know. What they do know is how to recognize someone who doesn't know as much as they think they do.
Lance: "It would be my pleasure to do the writing and toot your horn on your behalf."
Not interested in horn tooting.
I don't have anything to sell and solid information isn't even recognized by most callers let alone appreciated. I'd rather spend my time with guys that are really seriously wanting to improve their knowledge of calling and killing coyotes.
Lance: "There's a bit of a difference hunting off a hill that drops a hundred feet relatively abruptly - I guess you might call it a bluff - and a hill that takes a half-mile or more to drop thirty feet. Especially when that hill is covered by big bluestem head high and then some. Even if you can see thru it to see the coyote, threading a bullet through it is next to impossible. Being able to see down a slope from the top looking through the cummulative mass of vertical grass stalks takes a good eye. And an even better shot. Sitting just across from the very bottom offers you a chance to shoot (kind of ) down into the grass as the target checks up on a hillside. I just don't think some of you guys get the situations I'm trying to derscribe here. Must be an east-west thing. I've had guys that have seen this thread from eastern KS/ IA/ IN, etc., e-mail me and tell me they get it and agree."
Calling coyotes is not very effective from the highway either so I generally avoid those stands. Hate it when traffic pulls up and asks me what I'm doing sitting there with my camo and rifle on a bipod facing the pasture. I've come to the conclusion that I needed to find a place to call that was more effective. What a concept huh?
~SH~
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 09, 2007, 04:51 PM:
Scott you got any snow in youre area?
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 09, 2007, 05:26 PM:
.17: "Scott you got any snow in your area?"
No! We did have snow in South Central Western SD but it's pretty much all melted off. It is supposed to get to about 50 degrees tomorrow then turn much colder.
~SH~
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on January 09, 2007, 05:39 PM:
quote:
I just don't think some of you guys get the situations I'm trying to derscribe here. Must be an east-west thing. I've had guys that have seen this thread from eastern KS/ IA/ IN, etc., e-mail me and tell me they get it and agree."
And if I told them that they could go out and sit in the middle of a semi-flat bean stubble field and they could tip one over with in a hundred yards of them would they agree with me?
Dennis
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 09, 2007, 06:09 PM:
Scott do you do any calling up around white owl area, if so what is the lay of the land like. Flat, rolling hills, deep drainages ect???
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 09, 2007, 07:26 PM:
Scott: "Calling coyotes is not very effective from the highway either so I generally avoid those stands. Hate it when traffic pulls up and asks me what I'm doing sitting there with my camo and rifle on a bipod facing the pasture. I've come to the conclusion that I needed to find a place to call that was more effective. What a concept huh?"
This attempt at humor only comfirms to me that you don't have a clue about what calling here is like. It isn't the wide open spaces of Nowhere, South Dakota and if that's the kind of terrain and habitat you have to have to effect a good stand, you'll be finding another hobby. Then again, I take what's handed to me and make a pretty good situation out of it, even if it isn't like your region which is, admittedly, more suited to calling coyotes. Most of you guys that have come to KS think the whole place is like the area around St. Francis. Tell that to a native and they'll just smile. Get east of Salina and I-35 and the entire world does a 180.
And Dennis, what the hell are you talking about?!? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 09, 2007, 07:48 PM:
Cdog911,
East of Salina? Salina ain't that dang far from my house. You are starting to tempt me a little bit.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 10, 2007, 04:33 AM:
Heck, Rich, come on down! I'm about forty minutes east of there. I'd love the chance to hunt with you. It isn't SD, but it's what I have and we'll put by and make do. We may not be able to hunt every stand with a long shadow at twilight, but we will try to hunt with the sun at our back. Maybe even play the wind to our advantage. Mix it up with hand calls and Bandits and if we're lucky, we recreational callers might just get lucky and stumble upon a mess o' dead varmints as we struggle to muddle our way through the complexities of distress sounds and coyote vocalizations. Damned unfortunate that none of us know what we're doing, but that's life when you're not a professional. But, be forewarned, we have to stay out of the way of them gubmint hunters. Oops. That's right. We don't have gubmint hunters in Kansas. Don't need 'em. We recreational callers seem to have managed things quite well up to now, thank you very much. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to wipe the drool from my slack jaw.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 10, 2007, 05:06 AM:
Cdog911,
Shoot me an E mail with your phone number in it. If I can get my fat arse a moving, ya just might see me in kansas. We probably wouldn't kill 18 coyotes in one day, but who gives a rat's arse? It is about hunting, not just killing.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 10, 2007, 06:18 AM:
You've got mail.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 10, 2007, 06:31 AM:
quote:
Higgins' theories about their comfort zones are even more important around here than in some areas and sometimes that zone is in the last place you would ever expect to find them
Jeffrey Porath, a call manufacturer from Michigan, visited his father down here over the holidays. They hunted for three days without seeing a coyote. I took them out Sat. Dec. 30 looking for small isolated pockets that may contain coyotes evading the legions of dove hunters, quail hunters, and predator callers here. We called in 12 coyotes.
The following day I took Ray Everidge, president of PVCI, to the same general area. Ray needed five more coyotes for his next pin and hadn't taken a coyote in two months. We called in 15 coyotes and Ray got his five. He is rethinking his ideas of prime "rabitat".
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 10, 2007, 06:38 AM:
The previous post reminded me of the original question.
I don't think movement alarms coyotes.
They expect to see movement.
When that movement draws their attention to the human form is when you have problems.
Saturday's hunt with the Poraths and Ray I called in five coyotes together and kept them in front of us for 32 minutes, some of them within easy shotgun range, until they wandered off individually.
Nonintimidating sights, sounds and scents kept them there.
The surrounding area was littered with shotgun hulls.
[ January 10, 2007, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 10, 2007, 07:01 AM:
.17,
White Owl is north of me. Gently rolling to flat. You'd find coyotes in most of the timbered creeks around there. If you want to find more coyotes, you go to the Cheyenne River breaks to the South. I've called and killed coyotes around White Owl but usually on complaints.
Lance: "Damned unfortunate that none of us know what we're doing, but that's life when you're not a professional."
If you are not a professional, why are you telling others how to do it in articles? That doesn't make much sense.
Lance: "But, be forewarned, we have to stay out of the way of them gubmint hunters. Oops. That's right. We don't have gubmint hunters in Kansas. Don't need 'em. We recreational callers seem to have managed things quite well up to now, thank you very much."
Hahaha! That was funny! What the hell does prime fur recreational hunting in the winter have to do with livestock protection in the spring and summer? Do you even pick your rifle up in the spring and summer when coyotes are killing livestock?
I can assure you that any place that you call in the fall and winter is filled back in by the spring and with your 33% success on coyotes killed, the 66% of the population remaining is more than enough coyotes to kill calves in the spring when you are busy writing about it.
Oh yes, the infamous "BOB HENDERSON KANSAS EXTENSION PROGRAM" which single handedly resulted in many of Kansas sheep producers going out of business due to the amount of time, equipment, and knowledge required to remove problem coyotes. Quite a success story.
I can still hear Bob speaking about the success of his extension program based on the reduced number of phone calls he received. Hahaha! You bet! As if livestock producers would call for help again if they didn't receive any the first time. I saw the statistics on the number of sheep producers who went out of business due to coyote predation during the great BOB HENDERSON EXTENSION PROGRAM era.
Those ranchers could certainly solve their own problems with 1080 but I doubt you'd allow that would you Lance? Nah, as long as you can take the cream in the prime fur season and pretend that this action has anything to do with reducing livestock losses in the spring and summer, you will always have a place to call coyotes in the winter won't you?
Funny how the winter prime fur trappers can help ranchers in Kansas while every other western state is busy removing problem coyotes. Interesting!
You're right, when sheep producers no longer have sheep, they don't need gubmint trappers. That's great if your goal is to rid the land of sheep.
Perhaps this would make a great article Lance. How your 33% success in the winter helps reduce livestock losses on cattle from the remaining 66% in the spring and summer. Hahaha!
You're a dandy!
~SH~
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on January 10, 2007, 07:11 AM:
Lance, I sense a fair amount of animosity? What the hell am I talking about?
I'm talking about hidey holes(or lack of),slopes, backgound, that when I'm sitting down it's 3' from my ******* to the top of my head and how that effects backdrop, missed matched camo, crop stubble, cut hay fields, grazed pastures etc... But mostly I'm talking about farm country calling and taking what the terrian gives me.
I could probably go into a little more detail, but I'm sure I'd get ganged up on and probably be told that I'm full of shit.
Dennis
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 10, 2007, 08:19 AM:
Greenside,
I might tell you that you are full of it if you said that you regularly call Iowa coyotes across open fields in broad daylight, but I don't think you are gonna say that. You seem like a straight shooter to me. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on January 10, 2007, 10:22 AM:
Hell, I'm just happy that I killed a couple of coyotes in Kansas last year. That way I'm not on Lance's list. It was at Tribune Ks. and its the flattest palce I have ever been, so I hope that qualifies. But to the original topic, I call coyotes uphill about 95% of the time. I hate being below them. And on the other subject, Ouch! But I'll have side with Wiley, recreational hunting will never take the place of actual ADC work in areas of depredation. There just aren't enough guys that will stay the course to kill a problem coyote or group of coyotes. As far as some numbers reduction I agree that recreational callers and trappers can have an effect on total numbers, especially if fur prices ever got back to $100 coyotes. But for a producer to find a guy in May or June that will come hunt a week straight to kill a single family group of coyotes, and kill the right ones, and clean it all up, I'm guessing is pretty much a rarity. I know that Lance does some summertime hunting for livestock producers, but there can't be many other guys around, that can or will actually accomplish something at that time of year, and have the free time to devote to it. I do know that if you approached one of our local predator boards or producers with a plan to do away with the programs they have and rely on the public to control coyotes, they would ride you out on a rail. I would like to hear of a sheep producer in Kansas that thinks that the current program is working.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 10, 2007, 10:33 AM:
Yeah, me too. Don't be skeered, Dennis. They ain't gonna bite!
Good hunting. LB
edit: didn't see Cal's post before I wrote
[ January 10, 2007, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 10, 2007, 12:50 PM:
Scott,
I've never claimed to be a "professional". I'm just a guy with thirty years experience calling the coyotes around here. Do okay each year, and I know how to string two words together to make a little sense.
Combined what I like doing most -writing and calling - and offered it for the consumption of an editor. Turns out that that editor liked it, hired me on. As did the next. And the next. The feedback that they get from readers - recreational hunters rather than professional ADC people - shows that what I offer to the ones that hunt country like mine provides them with useful information that they can use in their day to day hunting. I get a fair number of e-mails, phone calls and letters myself and, aside from you, most of those people are pleasant, cordial and respectful and have offered only positive remarks. (There was that guy, Sonny, who called me and thanked me for "ruining his coon calling" by telling everyone "in the damned country" about "his" secret, but I think he was being sarcastic.)
Granted, I'm sure there are those that think I'm a quack - a real dandy, if you will. Comes with the territory. I learned early on if I'm going to put it out there, I'd better be willing to hear criticism. Used to be real thin skinned. Got a little thicker, tried my skills in good coyote country, quickly found out I could hold my own. At least, I keep getting invites to come back.
Living in an area where coyote hunting is a bit more challenging than average only makes you learn to try a little harder. Prepares you for the hard days. I'm probably not as good as you, and I say that with repect and honesty, but I'm good enough to keep myself happy for now.
And BTW Scott, Bob Henderson came to us from SD where he learned his trade. I'm just saying...
Speaking of Henderson, I used to know him. "F. Robert" for you that would want to look it up. And yes, he developed what he called a Wildlife Damage Control Cooperative program. I was in high school at the time and really wasn't into all the numbers, nor did I have access to that data. If you say his program was the death toll for much of the state's sheep program, I'll have to take your word for it. Don't doubt you since I know of only four sheep producers around here. In truth, I think the fact that Kansas is the number 2 state in the country, second only to Texas, for beef cattle production might have had something to do with that, too. Never met a cattleman that had much use for "range maggots".
But, that's yesterday, man. Bob has been retired and a non-factor in Kansas ADC for nearly two decades. You give his legacy a lot of credit that maybe isn't due. But, I can tell you one thing I do know for sure. Your claim that the livstock producers in Kansas don't want that program and would rather opt for something like your area enjoys is "inaccurate".
Just three months ago, I had a long conversation with a long time friend and old school chum who does ADC work for the USDA in Oregon. My dad was his little league coach and he called to visit with me about dad after dad died. He and his partner are responsible for one county and they average 1400 coyotes a year plus a shitload of mountin lions. A group of his higher ups worked with him and they presented a proposal to Kansas Livestock Association producers two years ago to try and implement a system funded like yours is in Kansas. He'd love to move back here and do what he's trained to do. The proposal was summarily defeated and he himself told me the reason was that Kansas producers didn't feel the problem was of such a size that they wanted to invest that kind of money in it. They felt that they were managing it well enough under the current structure.
Presently, Charles Lee is at the helm of that program and spent most of his early years under the tutilage of Bob at K-State. The only change I see in how ADC is done now compared to back then is that providers must apply for the permit, undergo a background check, undergo special training then demonstrate that they have liability insurance/ protection. Licensing is done by the state of Kansas and the program is administered by the Kansas Department of Wildlife & Parks. Licensed providers are contacted directly by Conservation Officers who put the complainant and the trapper/ hunter in contact with one another. Where the CO's have trappers, the program works quite well, accordint to the CO's. The only weak places are those areas where no one is certified to help out.
My local CO has asked me if I'm interested. Nope. It's an all or none deal. I don't mind going after a coyote in July, but I don't want to deal with skunks and stuff like that. Coyotes are varmints and can be hunted year-round, so I don't need any special blessings by the local rabbit ranger to go out and whack a problem coyote.
Now, if someone was to offer me $50k a year and the same federal retirement I'm building now,..... Otherwise, who would want the pay cut?
Cal,
I've got no "list". Pretty easy guy to get along with. Ask around. (Q thinks I'm an "opinionated prick", but then again, so is he. ) I don't offer myself up as a "professional" gun for hire on coyotes. Summer or otherwise. If you ask around to the farmers and ranchers I do help, you would find out that I quickly tell them how efficient and effective you guys are that do this type of work. Be sure that I hold the highest respect for you guys. You do things in calling coyotes that I only wish I could do.
Nor do I attempt to try and tell people how to do ADC work. That isn't T&PC's target market and never will be. I simply relate my own experiences and how they mesh with the tactics of a recreational hunter asked to help out a landowner. Kudos to you for killing a Kansas coyote near Tribune. I've been out that way and it's no more like this area than the sanddunes of Iraq. Again, the world takes a 180 at about Solomon, Kansas on I-70 from mixed and shortgrass prairie (prime calling country) to tallgrass prairie and deciduous hardwood forests.
Going back to Bob Henderson, he once told me he himself considered it a waste of time to try and call anything east of Salina
One other thing, Scott. I've sensed disdain from you since the first time we "spoke". Maybe it's because I'm a writer. Maybe it's because I'm a recreational caller. Maybe it's neither. I don't worry about it. But, if it's the former, I asked my buddy in Oregon about recreational hunters and why you guys hate us so much. He said that within his circles, that's not the case. He and his guys are trained to use techniques that us "lackies" don't have access to. He said that recreational calling, although growing, has relatively no impact on his ability to effect the coyote management goals assigned to him. he couldn't understand why you would have such a problem with it. Maybe it's just you. Either way, I sure don't see me doing a feature article on you anytime soon.
Thanks for calling me a "dandy".
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 10, 2007, 12:58 PM:
Dennis,
I sure apologize for the animosity. You're right. There for a minute, I was just swinging blindly. LOL
I think I kinda maybe get your drift. Maybe not. I too have few places that are seriously devoid of "hidey holes ", but they offer some damned good pockets of cover that you know are overlooked by the dog wagon boys and where there are probably a coyote or two bedded down for the day. God knows I've tried to use some of what Q has taught me to devise a way to call some of those pastures, but the layout and the road grid just makes it too danged hard and non-productive. Once upon a time, overlooking one of those very places, I decided to try and call it from the bottom rather than from the top like everyone else does. I may have given up some of the view advantage, but not all. I still had something of an advantage, but just from a different perspective. And what better backdrop to have than a hill that covers a quarter-section of ground. It's hard to be silhouetted or skylined, either one, when you're sitting just above the bottom looking across and slightly up.
Anyway, I'm probably till misunderstanding your point and am obviously unable to convey my own point in mere words. So, if I get a chance this weekend and the hunting sucks again, maybe I can talk my partner into staging a photo session so I can get some pics from different angles at a coyote's point of view.
Also, Cronk will tell you you're full of shit, but he's always smilin' when he types it.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 10, 2007, 01:25 PM:
Cdog911,
I would get more pleasure out of telling Scott that HE is full of shit. LOL, I could cause Leonard to pay for a bunch more pages of cuss words also. Oh man, that ain't right.
Lord, I apologize for that right up there and please be with the starving pygmies down there in Africa---Amen
[ January 10, 2007, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by sdyote (Member # 814) on January 10, 2007, 06:27 PM:
Rich Higgins,
How did you locate these pockets of coyotes when other people have been struggling in the area?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 10, 2007, 07:01 PM:
I looked for them.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 10, 2007, 07:15 PM:
I figured all the empty shotgun shells gave it away. If everyone else thinks it's a great place to hunt, it must be. Right?
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 11, 2007, 05:11 AM:
Lance: "We don't have gubmint hunters in Kansas. Don't need 'em. We recreational callers seem to have managed things quite well up to now, thank you very much."
Lance, explain to me how recreational coyote calling during the prime fur season reduces coyote predation during spring calving. Let's hear it! You made the claim now I anxiously await your explanation.
Secondly, how do you arrive at the conclusion that you are, "managing things quite well"? How do you know what level of calf losses are occuring due to coyote predation? How do you measure decreases in coyote predation in the spring based on winter fur harvest? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that coyote losses are not reported if nobody is going to address the problem AS IT IS OCCURING.
Third, not everyone's coyote predation situation is comparable. Whether or not a rancher has coyote predation on cattle depends on many variables such as the age of the coyote population in a given area, food availability, calving management practices in relation to coyote habitat, whether a rancher is calving early or late and how early his neighbors calve (whoever calves first USUALLY has more coyote predation problems pulling the coyotes to their area first), how often they are checking their cattle, adverse weather, range calving vs. shed calving, and the list of variables goes on and on.
I know all too well the opinions of most cattlemen regarding sheep but I've also seen many ranches that were paid for by sheep so sheep critics don't carry a lot of weight.
Incidentally, running sheep and cattle together creates more return per acre than running cattle alone because sheep utilize more forbs than cattle. Unfortunately, due to coyote predation, most cattlemen could not afford to run sheep.
Lance: "The proposal was summarily defeated and he himself told me the reason was that Kansas producers didn't feel the problem was of such a size that they wanted to invest that kind of money in it. They felt that they were managing it well enough under the current structure."
What is the current structure?
Someone who tells ranchers how to solve their own problems kinda like someone telling someone how to plumb their house or wire it?
Lance: "One other thing, Scott. I've sensed disdain from you since the first time we "spoke". Maybe it's because I'm a writer. Maybe it's because I'm a recreational caller. Maybe it's neither. I don't worry about it."
If you don't worry about it, why mention it?
Lance: "But, if it's the former, I asked my buddy in Oregon about recreational hunters and why you guys hate us so much."
Listen to you, you just made the leap from questioning whether I dislike recreational coyote callers to stating it as fact ("why you guys hate us so much"). That's pure bullsh*t Lance! You're making it up as you go. I don't have any problem with recreational coyote callers in fact, some of the best coyote callers I know are recreational coyote callers and many of my best friends are recreational coyote callers. You're grasping at straws Lance.
Let me give it to you damn straight Lance, I don't have any problems with recreational coyote hunters nor writers who have the experience to back what they are talking about. I just have a problem with writers who write about other's experiences as opposed to having enough experience to write from their own experiences. I also have a problem with writers who take other's experience and portray it as their own. Both are my hangup since you don't worry about it.
A perfect example of this is when some fast buck artist criticized Leonard's misting because he wasn't even smart enough to know it's intended purpose or when to apply it's use. In contrast, I enjoy reading Q's articles because I know he's continually learning from his own experiences.
When I used to read your articles, I saw you repeating what others had taught you on the boards as opposed to you having the experience to write from your own coyote calling experiences. Experience recognizes experience and it also recognizes inexperience. I don't think you have put the miles in behind much of what you write therefore I don't read it anymore. 30 years calling experience doesn't say much if you can't claim many original concepts. Now I read your excuses for why you don't call more coyotes in while giving coyotes the elevation advantage. You can't skin excuses.
There, now you have it straight and I'll rest easier knowing you won't worry about it. LOL!
Lance: "Either way, I sure don't see me doing a feature article on you anytime soon."
What on earth would give you the crazy notion that I would want anyone to do a feature article on me let alone you? Haha! Ain't you a tomcat!
As far as I'm concerned, the quality of the articles in the T&PC have dwindled to almost being worthless with the exception of a recent mink article I read by Jim Spencer and an article on Yancy and Reed and their cage trapping of cats. I don't read any of the calling articles because I don't find any substance in them. Many of my friends feel the same way.
Nah, if I'm ever involved in a featured article on calling coyotes, I'll write it and explain it myself as opposed to allowing someone to misinterpret it and it certainly won't be for the T&PC. I get a lot more self satisfaction out of giving personal instructions to real serious coyote callers who have enough experience to understand and utilize the information to virtually double their take of coyotes overnight.
Now, back to explaining how recreational coyote calling in the winter reduces calf predation in the spring......
~SH~
[ January 11, 2007, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 11, 2007, 09:00 AM:
"I get a lot more self satisfaction out of giving personal instructions to real serious coyote callers who have enough experience to understand and utilize the information to virtually double their take of coyotes overnight."
I'd love to double my take. Do you do correspondence courses?
In all seriousness though, I'm wondering what constitutes a "real serious" coyote caller. And I'm not entirely joking about the correspondence course either. As I just said, I'd love to learn how to increase my success. But I'm not sure I meet the criteria of "real serious" caller. I'm more or less your typical garden variety recreational caller of average ability and knowledge. I probably do shoot a little bit better than the average caller. And I probably do take my calling a little bit more seriously than the average caller. But I really don't think I'm any better than average at calling coyotes. Put it this way, I think a lot of the guys on this board are above average, and I'm not as good as they are.
If there were instructions or knowledge made available to me that would help me move from average to better than average, I'd be inclined to take advantage of that oppportunity.
Question for you Wiley... I'd love to hear your opinion as to what you see as the most common mistake made by the typical recreational caller such as myself? What do you think we most often do wrong, or most often fail to do at all that hurts our numbers?
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 11, 2007, 09:08 AM:
Gentlemen,
I find the conversation very entertaining.
Be cool, my friends. And, don't take things too seriously.
Good hunting. LB
PS (personally) and, in summation; I prefer to call a predator uphill, if at all possible?
PPS ...there are always exceptions
edit: Dave, don't be so modest, you have a lot going for you as an advanced amateur and rifleman extrodinaire. Everybody knows that.
[ January 11, 2007, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 12, 2007, 07:03 AM:
DAA: "In all seriousness though, I'm wondering what constitutes a "real serious" coyote caller."
My definition of a "real serious coyote caller" is someone who has enough experience to understand coyote behavior well enough to where he/she can adapt certain calling techniques to his/her unique situation. Also, someone who is hell bent on self improvement. I'm not much help to a novice who doesn't understand basic coyote behavior and I'm not much help to someone who isn't willing to try new ideas for self improvement.
DAA: "As I just said, I'd love to learn how to increase my success. But I'm not sure I meet the criteria of "real serious" caller."
I'm assuming we are talking about my definition of a "real serious coyote caller" and not someone else's since that definition would be subjective. I know you've been around calling and these boards long enough to understand how coyote behavioral patterns can change from area to area. The question then becomes, how serious are you about self improvement?
DAA: "I'm more or less your typical garden variety recreational caller of average ability and knowledge. I probably do shoot a little bit better than the average caller. And I probably do take my calling a little bit more seriously than the average caller."
Then more than likely you would meet the my definition of a "real serious coyote caller".
I have been doing competition hunts for about 20 years. What I find in the teams that consistantly win is three things. #1. They have the ability to cover a lot of ground and tie their stands together. #2. They can shoot. #3. They understand coyote behavior and how to adapt to different areas.
I can still cover a lot of ground but the 20 extra pounds I'm carrying has definitely slowed me down some.
I can shoot fairly well but there is no question that I can continue to improve my shooting by reading wind and ranging more coyotes. I don't think you ever stop improving on running shots considering the various ranges, angles, and wind directions you encounter. I see myself constantly improving on running shots.
Where I tend to shine is in my ability to understand coyote behavior and how to adapt a hunting strategy to a specific habitat type, hunting pressure, terrain, etc. etc. I say that not with arrogance but rather with confidence from having had to adapt to many different situations over the years over many habitat types, coyote populations, and hunting pressure. In this area I can generally compensate for weaknesses in my shooting and weaknesses in my ability to cover as much ground as I'd like.
DAA: "But I really don't think I'm any better than average at calling coyotes. Put it this way, I think a lot of the guys on this board are above average, and I'm not as good as they are."
The only comparison that matters is how you compare with other hunters who are hunting the same areas, with the same coyote populations, under the same circumstances you are. I'm sure you already know this but if you are hunting government land in Utah, for example, and coyote populations are not that great and calling pressure is more than other areas, you cannot objectively compare that to other areas with higher coyote populations, less hunting pressure, and different geography and habitats.
For example, when Quinton has an 8 to 10 coyote day, I know exactly how that compares to my circumstances because I know his terrrain, I know his access,I have a pretty good idea how much hunting pressure he has, and I know his coyote population because I've called in very similar circumstances. I can't say that about someone who calls 12 coyotes in a day in Southern Texas. I know what it takes to call and kill 8 - 10 coyotes in the Sandhills of Nebraska or the river bottoms and I can tell you that it's quite a feat. How do I know? You don't see many other guys doing it.
A comparison to your area might be 3 - 5 coyotes per day. I can't possibly compare unless I know all the variables you are dealing with.
DAA: "If there were instructions or knowledge made available to me that would help me move from average to better than average, I'd be inclined to take advantage of that oppportunity."
I offer a money back guarantee but your success may also require you to drive to an area that is more conducive to calling if your coyote population is too low, your hunting pressure is too high, and your geography is too difficult. I can't do the impossible. If the coyotes are there, I can generally figure out a system to kill them despite the hunting pressure and the geography. Where there is a will, there is a way.
For instance, some antelope hunters will sit and complain all day about the difficulties in sneaking up on antelope out in flat land. The next guy will walk behind the horse he's leading and slip up right beside them and shoot them with a bow. It all comes down to how badly you want to figure out a way to get it done.
DAA: "Question for you Wiley... I'd love to hear your opinion as to what you see as the most common mistake made by the typical recreational caller such as myself? What do you think we most often do wrong, or most often fail to do at all that hurts our numbers?"
That's a very difficult question to answer without knowing the variables you are faced with. Variables such as coyote numbers, calling/hunting pressure, human disturbance, geography, weather, habitat, etc.
Understand that my response will be speculative at best.
I see a combination of mistakes made by most callers in most situations. That combination of mistakes being:
1. Trying to call coyotes towards a source of danger (roads, trails, etc.) as opposed to figuring out a way to get within their comfort zone and call them from a different direction with a different sound than what everyone else is using. You absolutely need to know what degree of competition you have, what they are using and how they are calling.
2. Poor stand selection. Not picking stands where they can readily handle the coyotes without allowing the coyotes to see the shooter or smell the shooter before the coyotes are within gun range.
3. Common mistakes such as being seen or heard when they are approaching or on the calling stand.
4. Not having a solid rest in all situations for shooting. If you are not solid, you shouldn't be shooting, period. GET SOLID! If you have to shoot from a sitting position, get your back up against a solid object or prop yourself or get those coyotes called to shotgun range and forget the rifle.
5. Failure to utilize the sun and wind to your advantage at all times IF POSSIBLE. I put sunlight advantage about as high as wind advantage on my list of priorities. My whole day is planned around both the sun and the wind.
6. Lack of understanding of how sound carries and how objects such as hills and valleys affect how sound carries.
7. Not locating your coyotes and setting yourself up with the conditions in your advantage as compared to "cold rolling" and not having any idea where they coyotes will show up.
I won't go into any more detail than that because it wouldn't be fair to those who have taken personal instruction.
~SH~
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 12, 2007, 07:59 AM:
Scott: I'm always looking for ways to improve my calling. What would be the price tag for this personel instructing, and do you give discounts...
Posted by Dsmith7136 (Member # 732) on January 12, 2007, 08:48 AM:
Now that was an incredibly informative post, Scott. Thanks. It reinforces everything we've ever been taught about adhering to the basics - particularly about planning your day around sun and wind direction as much as possible.
Good to hear.
[ January 12, 2007, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Dsmith7136 ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 12, 2007, 08:54 AM:
Don't have time to get anymore into this right now. But... Good stuff, and most interesting. You are confirming much of what I have seen as my own strengths and weaknesses. Thanks Scott.
"I won't go into any more detail than that because it wouldn't be fair to those who have taken personal instruction."
As I expected and as it should be.
- DAA
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 12, 2007, 02:56 PM:
quote:
I'm not much help to a novice who doesn't understand basic coyote behavior...
I'd have to totally disagree with you there.
Your information on shot placement and body language, in relation to a coyote that done "runofft" was extremely helpful, if not to actually find my "mountain coyote" at least in having an idea where to look, and why to look there.
Thanks.
Maybe I'm just a halfway "serious" coyote caller?
Krusty 
[ January 12, 2007, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 12, 2007, 07:26 PM:
I was willing to let this one die, and have asked several callers from the less target-rich states that have e-mailed and PM'd me wanting to take their shots at you to do the same, but since you went personal and you actually go so far as to accuse me of plagiarism, which to me - in this forum - is a very serious allegation and borders on libel, (my attorney said she'd review of your remarks. I'm not a lawyer, but by God, she is. Maybe that's why Leonard is asking us (you) to keep it civil.) I will address all your comments here. Sadly, the longer this continues, the more you make my wife look right. She has told me countless times that I just can't stand to not be right. Looks like that distinction falls with more than just me.
Scott: "Lance, explain to me how recreational coyote calling during the prime fur season reduces coyote predation during spring calving. Let's hear it! You made the claim now I anxiously await your explanation."
First off, we have very little coyote predation to begin with. There are probably a host of reasons for this, none of which I have numbers to quantify. But I do know that a loss to coyotes is the exception rather than the rule. I can say that one of the main reasons for this is because we have very little "spring calving" anymore. With exception of one old rancher in his 80's, the remainder of my stockmen time their calving to occur in July-early September. Moreover, almost all calving hereabouts is now done in calving pastures or pens either on the farm or very close nearby. Much of this change from conventional late January calving began at the behest of Kansas State University and people like Bob Henderson to offset the time calves are dropped away from the time when coyotes are preparing to whelp and when they're foraging to feed hungry litters. For whatever reason, the fact remains that there is little calf depredation around here and the stockmen attribute it to trapping, hunting and dog wagons, combined with proper farm management practices. The guys I hunt on that do lose calves and cows do so more to ingesting hedge apples than coyote attacks.
Scott: Secondly, how do you arrive at the conclusion that you are, "managing things quite well"? How do you know what level of calf losses are occurring due to coyote predation? How do you measure decreases in coyote predation in the spring based on winter fur harvest? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that coyote losses are not reported if nobody is going to address the problem AS IT IS OCCURING.
If it occurs, and it does maybe twice a year, I get a call. This is from the landowners I hunt on. What the local CO does with other people is unknown to me. But, when it occurs, I do what I can. I've resolved every complaint that has been given to me. I consider myself lucky and blessed to have that claim to make, but every time I've been called, the problem has ceased to exist. Am I sure I got the offending coyote? Nope. My concern is the perception of the complainant. If he's happy, I'm happy.
I don't get paid to do that job like you do, nor do I have to access to training and techniques like you guys. I'm a simple guy with a gun, a howler, a call, and motivation. I go. I call. I kill coyotes. Problem goes bye-bye and I follow up with him, the neighbors, and the CO in case my problem coyote simply relocated. Hasn't happened yet, so we can only surmise that the problem must have either been one of the coyotes we killed or something else happened to it so that it is/ was no longer of concern. Good enough for me and it keeps the gate open come November.
And, I do deal with them as they happen. As does the CO as part of the state licensed ADC program. In my case, same day as I get the call. But, again, we have few calf loss complaints. This year, I had coyotes attacking a dog and a mangy coyote that kept killing a farmer's daughter's kittens. Earth shattering, I know, but that's the sum total of the huge predator problem you have yourself convinced occurs here in northcentral KS. LOL
Scott: "Third, not everyone's coyote predation situation is comparable. Whether or not a rancher has coyote predation on cattle depends on many variables such as the age of the coyote population in a given area, food availability, calving management practices in relation to coyote habitat, whether a rancher is calving early or late and how early his neighbors calve (whoever calves first USUALLY has more coyote predation problems pulling the coyotes to their area first), how often they are checking their cattle, adverse weather, range calving vs. shed calving, and the list of variables goes on and on.
You're right and I agree, but I think I've addressed most of these parameters above as far as timing of calving and where the calving is done. I think a lot of the reason that we have little depredation is the fact that this place is crawling with food for coyotes. I've never been to SD, but I've been to the ranchlands of CO and NE and one of the biggest questions I always walk away with is what in the hell do all these coyotes eat? There's nothing out there but inch tall grass and cacti. I can certainly see why they would prey upon calves when it gets cold or have puppies to nurse. By comparison, I've conducted small mammal surveys on tallgrass prairie as part of rodent population studies and you would be floored at the number of mice, voles, rats and the like that live in an acre of Kansas grass. There is no shortage of food around here for predators (which is a big part of why I think our coyotes are less willing to respond than in NE. It isn't that they're harder to call or smarter; it's because they don't have the need.).
Scott: "Incidentally, running sheep and cattle together creates more return per acre than running cattle alone because sheep utilize more forbs than cattle. Unfortunately, due to coyote predation, most cattlemen could not afford to run sheep.
Maybe so. I'm not a sheep man. In fact, I know of only four. The largest operation runs about fifty head in a pasture right beside his house. They are an oddity around here and have been all my life. Maybe if you think our local producers are too ignorant to know what you know about profit potential, you should maybe enlighten them a bit. What is the current subsidy on sheep?
Scott: "What is the current structure? "
If I recall, I pretty well covered that in my last response. I refer you to it there.
Scott: "Someone who tells ranchers how to solve their own problems kinda like someone telling someone how to plumb their house or wire it?
The philosophy behind Bob Henderson's program was simple and as old as time itself: Teach a man to fish...
The farms and "ranches" around here are nothing like those up that way. Whereas you might have a ranch that encompasses tens of thousands of square acres, if not several dozen square miles, most of our producers operate mixed production operations consisting of cattle, hay/ alfalfa and row crops. Their "spread" may encompass two to three square miles and is generally a fraction of that. Those that own or lease larger operations usually only have cattle grazing on a small portion of it at any given time and those herds are easy to manage and protect on their own. Moreover, most of these guys grew up running traps and shooting coyotes, just like your ranchers. They would just rather learn to do the job themselves and take care of it on their own.
Scott: "If you don't worry about it, why mention it? "
You're the one that chose to stir the pot. I'm simply clarifying. Arguing with you is pretty much the proverbial rasslin' with a pig. I can't really tell, though, which you enjoy more. The debate? Or picking someone to publicly attack every six months.
Scott: "I don't have any problems with recreational coyote hunters nor writers who have the experience to back what they are talking about. I just have a problem with writers who write about other's experiences as opposed to having enough experience to write from their own experiences.
You're delusional. If you have truly followed my writing in T&PC, which I have been doing since 1992, you would know that the first article I did on anyone's experience other than my own was the two part series I did featuring Rich Higgins entitled "Coyote Speak". If I recall, I didn't take any personal credit for any of the information I offered the reader, giving full credit to Rich.
Later came "Coyote Nirvana" featuring Leonard. Again, I assumed no credit for that technique and the only mention I made of myself in the text was of the successful results I had enjoyed from misting. In any event, both the misting and howling pieces were done only after I'd had a
year or more to try the techniques out for myself. (I'd been using howling for a number of years. Rich's methods were what I was testing for my own satisfaction.) In any event, both of these pieces represented a period of time where I was exploring and developing my skills as a writer using a more interrogative/ interview-like approach featuring key players in the business who had methods they wanted to share and who were willing to do so thru me. If you think for one minute that I hijacked their ideas or intellectual property without their permission, maybe you need to speak with them before leveling such an accusation. In truth, I employ a rather regimented process to ensure that my contributors are completely satisfied with how they and their ideas are portrayed before the article is even submitted to the editor. In the two aforementioned pieces, both Leonard and Rich endured several re-writes before finally giving me the green light to submit what was eventually published for public consumption.
The same goes for the piece on Q. He consented because he is a helluva coyote hunter. Trapper & Predator Caller is, what I am told, a feature-based publication. Features encompass a variety of article types, not all of which are informational of instructional. In the case of "Killing on Q", it was a human interest feature showing the accomplishments of a very effective recreational hunter. Nothing more or less. I'd have had a hard time pulling that off, legally or ethically, without his consent. The same goes for the story on hunting in Africa. He and I hashed over that story idea on our first hunt together in Colorado and if I recall correctly, it was as much his idea as mine.
In any event, all of my stories are pitched to the editorial staff and the ones you see are the ones they choose from the soup. If you have a problem with any particular story - and apparently you do - I can assure you that the details described therein are based upon my own personal experiences, or those of a contributor, and will more than stand up to your scrutiny or anyone else's.
And no, I don't worry about your opinion of me. One out of 38,000 is still pretty good odds.
Scott: "I also have a problem with writers who take other's experience and portray it as their own. Both are my hangup since you don't worry about it."
See above.
Scott: "A perfect example of this is when some fast buck artist criticized Leonard's misting because he wasn't even smart enough to know it's intended purpose or when to apply it's use."
Am I the alleged fast buck artist in this comment? If so, go back and re-read the article. Leonard was the contributor on that piece and he okay'd the text as published. I, myself, use misting and am the last person to refute its efficacy. Please clarify this remark.
Scott: "When I used to read your articles, I saw you repeating what others had taught you on the boards as opposed to you having the experience to write from your own coyote calling experiences.
My experiences parallel that of many of the guys on here, so for that, I'm accused of improprieties? Ain't that special?
Scott: "Experience recognizes experience and it also recognizes inexperience."
In this case, your ignorance of the conditions commonly encountered in calling farm country gets in the way of your myopic view of calling coyotes. I have hunted in the various environs of the country where coyotes live and a lot of the techniques employed out west are impractical here. This is the conventional east-west argument that never seems to die. Am I to agree with you that because we choose to do things differently here than you, we lack "experience"? On behalf of all midwest callers, kiss my ass. LOL
Scott: "I don't think you have put the miles in behind much of what you write therefore I don't read it anymore."
Please share that with my wife. Bless her heart, she never sees me between November 1 and March 1 because I spend all my days off out hunting or out of state chasing coyotes. I average 7,000 miles on my poor little truck each fall and winter just running around three and a half counties trying to whack a couple dozen coyotes. It's been that way since I was 16 years old and was able to drive paved roads without fear of being arrested. I just don't have the experience that you've acquired doing this game full time for a living, or that I don't play the game by your rules. In your eyes, that's inexperience? If so, you've just called 95% of the callers in this country ignorant buffoons that lack the experience to even have an opinion about anything calling related.
Scott: "30 years calling experience doesn't say much if you can't claim many original concepts."
There are only so many things that can be said about calling coyotes. It isn't rocket science, although guys like you would like to make us think it is. You lay claim to everything you say, but I suspect most of it came to you from unnamed sources that you conveniently overlook mentioning. LOL
Scott: "Now I read your excuses for why you don't call more coyotes in while giving coyotes the elevation advantage. You can't skin excuses."
That same thirty years of experience has been applied outside my normal hunting area and done a pretty good job of racking up dead coyotes. All things being equal, applying those skills hereabouts and the numbers go down leads you to deduce that the most influential parameter contributing to the decrease in call-ins has to do with local conditions and the local coyotes.
I sure didn't see you hunting this area during either of the last two St. Francis hunts. What's up with that? Your implication is that you could do as well here as anywhere. Or can you?
Revisiting the elevation advantage issue, I was talking with Q night before last and this came up. I stumbled upon a better explanation of this to him and he couldn't disagree with me, and today, I realized an even better way to analogize it to you and the others reading this train wreck.
Let's imagine that we're in a huge stadium. The sides of the stadium are the hillside we're calling to and around. The football field is the valley. Now, in this area, scale becomes an issue. Rather than being a mere fifty yards or less from the front row to the back row seats, that hillside may make that slope over a horizontal run of 400-600 yards. That's a problem for me since I'm an effective shooter up to about 300 yards or so. I've made longer shots than that, but I've missed even more. LOL
Now, referring back to Dennis's remarks, it's about thirty inches from my forehead to my butt crack sitting down. That's a good average for adult humans. Therefore, imagine that the stadium is full of spectators and the stands are full. All those heads and shoulder represent the grass on the hillside.
Sure, you say, my grass is only four inches tall. Well, we're in Kansas, and thirty inch tall grass represents a shitty year for forage production. It's normally four to six feet tall, but for the sake of argument, we'll go with 30 inches.
Now, since this is Kansas, we have to understand that the landowner routinely burns this pasture off to control invasive species like eastern redcedar, and to keep grass growth thick, lush, and uniform across the range and to prevent bunching. Therefore, the grass covers the entire hillside and there is nothing but grass to hide in or behind. What I've described is a pretty routine, well managed hunk of rangeland in my area.
Now, turn a coyote loose in that stadium and see which gives you the best vantage point for the shot. From the bottom, from the hillside, or from the top?
From the top, that 24-inch coyote can move all around amongst those people (grass) and because you're looking down the slope through all those bodies and all that obstructive cover, you cannot see him until he's inside two or three rows of seats from you.
From the middle of the "hillside", you can see a little better laterally, but still not very well looking down.
Go down on the sideline. Turn around and look up. You can make out every face in the crowd if you need to. If that's a hillside with grass, you can see the coyote working his way down that hillside and if you bark him to a stop, he'll stop and stick his mug right out there for you to aim at. You don't stand at the front row. You go to the sideline - a little ways back from the front row - and maybe even out of the field.
Moreover, like in a lot of places, we don't have any cover on the hillside to use as backing, but we do have scrub growth, wash outs and pile ups littering the bottom, any of which make good backing, and any of which often offer up a view of that hillside where you can see and work an approaching target the entire span of that hillside and if your comfortable shooting range is a hundred yards, you can set up fifty yards from the base of the hill and stop them before they hit the bottom with a shot that is just slightly above horizontal.
Still sound stupid?
What's stupid is that you've misconcluded that this is a technique I use on every setup when I've never said that. It's an option that I keep available if needed and one that few other guys would ever use. Hell, look at the shit storm it caused here, so I doubt it's going to be something that the coyotes are going to shy away from any time too soon. LOL That's okay. Pretty much sums up why I'm calling coyotes around here and other guys aren't. Thinking outside the box.
Scott: "What on earth would give you the crazy notion that I would want anyone to do a feature article on me let alone you?"
I'm sorry. I guess you missed the sarcasm and humor. Then again, I don't think you have a sense of humor. For example, look at Tripp's skunk thread. For three pages, the rest of us are intentionally giving him bad information and humorously setting him up for a very nasty experience (he wasn't fooled, he played right along) and you jump in on page four with this matter of fact, this is how you do it piece of advice but not without taking a dig at everyone else here that's ever strung steel. You need to buy your panties a size or two bigger, man.
Now, on to your second self-important post, which is, BTW, the only positive contribution you've made to this board in 18 months.
Scott: "My definition of a "real serious coyote caller" is someone who has enough experience to understand coyote behavior well enough to where he/she can adapt certain calling techniques to his/her unique situation. Also, someone who is hell bent on self improvement. I'm not much help to a novice who doesn't understand basic coyote behavior and I'm not much help to someone who isn't willing to try new ideas for self improvement. "
This shows that you don't even know me, yet you choose to criticize me. My entire academic background centered around ethology and the developmental behavior of birds of prey. I've been reading journal literature since the mid-80's and would guess that I have at least as good a grasp of biometrical analysis of that data as you, except that I maintain an objective mind and don't preface all my negative remarks with such catchy phrases as "snapshot in time" and "false assumptions" as my default position on all things science. Like them or not, the hypotheses examined in those studies can only be tested using the techniques we have available and there aren't any covert government agencies or black helicopters involved to skew the results in someone else's favor. If you know statistics, you know how to identify the limitations of those studies. Draw your own conclusions but they've all been subjected to peer review and they're not all wrong..
Scott: "...would be subjective".
Everything you offer is subjective.
Scott: "The only comparison that matters is how you compare with other hunters who are hunting the same areas, with the same coyote populations, under the same circumstances you are.
If so, then why do you continue to compare my skill level with yours? Hypocrite. My assigment with T&PC is to write about calling farm country.
Scott: "I know what it takes to call and kill 8 - 10 coyotes in the Sandhills of Nebraska or the river bottoms and I can tell you that it's quite a feat. How do I know? You don't see many other guys doing it."
I've been Q's guest up there twice. In a day and a half on trip 1, I called 23 and we killed twelve. I did all the calling.
On this last trip, despite wind, warm weather and only half the available coyotes due to mange (Q's estimate), I called 15 and we killed 8 in two days. I guess you've never seen me call.
Scott: "That's a very difficult question to answer without knowing the variables you are faced with. Variables such as coyote numbers, calling/hunting pressure, human disturbance, geography, weather, habitat, etc.
Understand that my response will be speculative at best."
Damned straight it would. So tell me, Scott, what are my coyote numbers here? What types of pressures do my coyotes face that you know about and I don't? I'm all ears.
Scott: "1. Trying to call coyotes towards a source of danger (roads, trails, etc.) as opposed to figuring out a way to get within their comfort zone and call them from a different direction with a different sound than what everyone else is using."
Pretty much sums up the philosophy behind calling them to the ravines rather than over hills where they're in sight of roads a quarter mile away. You know,... those ravines where they bed down in the daytime to stay hidden - their "comfort zones"? the different direction thing is self explanatory and using a different sound is not new nor sage advice. Pretty well know.
In fact, none of these seven pearls of wisdom is new. They can all be found in a couple hours research on Predator Masters. Why would anyone pay to be told what you can find for free on the web?
Tell you what, this has gotten way too long and way too windy. Neither one of us is going to give up, regardless of how wrong you are. LOL How about you don't read my articles and I won't invite you over for Christmas dinner next year.
(That was humor .)
Posted by tooslow (Member # 1063) on January 12, 2007, 08:08 PM:
I have entered the twilight zone, or do we now sell tickets for a dualing match? What was Rodney Kings famous quote?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 12, 2007, 09:39 PM:
Pat, it's unfortunate that we do not include a complete resume' with each member profile. These guys both have credentials. One of the problems with Huntmasters is our policy of unedited free speech, and as much as possible, a patient finger on the delete button. This is unique in the world of predator hunting message boards. And, of course, some praise this policy while others damn it.
Lance already wrote an email saying he is not going to participate any longer. I hope he reconsiders; I believe that his contributions have value for the entire membership. Plus, DAA has posed an indignant question, and is awaiting (deserves) a response.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on January 12, 2007, 10:22 PM:
Yeah, I hope Lance reconsiders. Maybe he meant just on this thread? If you read this Lance, dont go away.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 12, 2007, 10:32 PM:
I'm perfectly satisfied that I got exactly the response I expected from Lance on the lion poaching. I'd have been very, very surprised had he responded. Though I won't be too terribly surprised should he suddenly "notice" my comment and decide to write a three page response now...
Regardless, no big whup, and no harm, no foul.
Leonard, you may be right that perhaps I'm a bit more advanced than I'm comfortable giving myself credit for, but I'm worlds away from having the experience and insights of a professional. Then too, I know it sounds cliched, but it's so true - the older I get and the more experience I gain, the less I think I really know! Ten years ago I'd have told anyone who would listen that I was Hell-on-wheels calling coyotes. Now, I don't really think so anymore...
Laugh at me if you want, but I'm thinking I'd like to talk to Scott more about his personal instruction and how much it might cost to pay the man for some insights. I have a friend here locally that took instructions from Verne Howey some years ago and there is no question that it helped him put more coyotes on the ground. Especially in the hard hunted public ground of our Utah West Desert. And I would have ranked this friend as a "very advanced" amateur before he paid for the instructions. Actually, he's probably the best coyote caller I've personally ever hunted with. He disdains contest hunting, and he's very quiet and not at all into promoting himself so nobody has ever heard of him, but his numbers in Juab and Tooele counties (the two hardest hunted counties in Utah) will rank right up there with anyone. And he gives a lot of credit for that to the lessons he learned from a professional.
Frankly, the things Scott talks about as being his strong points, are exactly the things I know I'm most weak in (conversely, the things he lists as his weak points are areas I consider myself strong in). Can't help but be very curious what a seasoned pro might be able to teach me.
- DAA
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 12, 2007, 11:02 PM:
Cdog: "I was willing to let this one die, and have asked several callers from the less target-rich states that have e-mailed and PM'd me wanting to take their shots at you to do the same, but since you went personal and you actually go so far as to accuse me of plagiarism, which to me - in this forum - is a very serious allegation and borders on libel, (my attorney said she'd review of your remarks. I'm not a lawyer, but by God, she is."
REVIEW AWAY LANCE'S LAWYER!
Won't change a thing in fact it just confirms what I already believed.
As far as your "supposed" discouraged support group, encourage them to jump right on in. The more the merrier.
Cdog: "First off, we have very little coyote predation to begin with. There are probably a host of reasons for this, none of which I have numbers to quantify. But I do know that a loss to coyotes is the exception rather than the rule. I can say that one of the main reasons for this is because we have very little "spring calving" anymore. With exception of one old rancher in his 80's, the remainder of my stockmen time their calving to occur in July-early September. Moreover, almost all calving hereabouts is now done in calving pastures or pens either on the farm or very close nearby."
Thank you for basically confirming that reduced calf losses in Kansas didn't have much to do with recreational coyote callers as you had suggested ("we recreational callers seem to have managed things quite well up to now") but rather were more a result of changes in calving dates and changes in livestock husbandry.
Good job correcting your own misinformation.
Cdog: "Much of this change from conventional late January calving began at the behest of Kansas State University and people like Bob Henderson to offset the time calves are dropped away from the time when coyotes are preparing to whelp and when they're foraging to feed hungry litters."
Here's a classic example of exactly what I am talking about ......
Lance if you knew anything about coyotes, you'd know that coyotes are not even bred by January in most areas let alone foraging to feed hungry pups. Most coyotes are bred in late February and pup in early May so what does that have to do with January calving?? This is a perfect example of why I don't read your articles. I just happen to believe that readers deserve better more accurate information than that.
Secondly, the reason most ranchers are switching to later calving has little to do with coyote predation and is more a result of timing the cow's highest nutritional needs with the highest nutritional value of the grass and also to sell calves in non traditional market periods of potentially higher demand.
This can be confirmed with studies presented at the Range Beef Cow Symposium representing universities from the states of SD, WY, CO, & NE.
Cdog: "For whatever reason, the fact remains that there is little calf depredation around here and the stockmen attribute it to trapping, hunting and dog wagons, combined with proper farm management practices. The guys I hunt on that do lose calves and cows do so more to ingesting hedge apples than coyote attacks."
For whatever reason? You just got done crediting recreational fur hunters and now you're not sure?
Trapping, hunting, and dog wagons that hunt during the prime fur season doesn't have anything to do with reducing livestock losses the following spring. If you would read any of the many radio telemetry studies on coyote immigration you'd learn how quickly coyotes fill any voids created by recreational fur harvest.
Cdog: "If it occurs, and it does maybe twice a year, I get a call. This is from the landowners I hunt on. What the local CO does with other people is unknown to me. But, when it occurs, I do what I can. I've resolved every complaint that has been given to me. I consider myself lucky and blessed to have that claim to make, but every time I've been called, the problem has ceased to exist. Am I sure I got the offending coyote? Nope. My concern is the perception of the complainant. If he's happy, I'm happy."
You've resolved every complaint you have been given but you're not sure if you got the offending coyote??? Ahhh...ok?
I guess if you happen to be in the area when it's raining you can take credit for that too huh? LOL!
You just got done saying that there is little calf predation around here and now you're saying that you get coyote predation calls maybe twice a year, JUST ON THE LANDOWNERS YOU HUNT ON.
So there's very little predation but you receive predation complaints maybe twice a year just on the landowners you hunt on? Hmmmm?? Glad we cleared that up.
Be honest Lance, your only gauge of how much predation is occurring is the number of phone calls you receive and what you hear. The fact is, you don't know how much coyote predation is occuring in your area do you?
Cdog: "I'm a simple guy with a gun, a howler, a call, and motivation. I go. I call. I kill coyotes. Problem goes bye-bye and I follow up with him, the neighbors, and the CO in case my problem coyote simply relocated. Hasn't happened yet, so we can only surmise that the problem must have either been one of the coyotes we killed or something else happened to it so that it is/ was no longer of concern. Good enough for me and it keeps the gate open come November."
You go, you call, you kill coyotes!
In a recent post you suggested that you killed about 33% of the coyotes you saw and you had all kinds of excuses for why you couldn't kill more and now you suggest that you go, you call, and you kill coyotes??
Do you go, call, and kill coyotes East of Salina where you said Bob Henderson claimed it was a waste of time?
You really have a hard time keeping your stories straight don't you?
Cdog: ".....that's the sum total of the huge predator problem you have yourself convinced occurs here in northcentral KS"
Since all of the posts are still there, would you like to point out to the readers where I suggested that northcentral KS has a "huge predator problem".
Bring it Lance!
Let me see my quote where you drew this conclusion.
Making it up as you go again?
Cdog: "I think a lot of the reason that we have little depredation is the fact that this place is crawling with food for coyotes."
Then why did you suggest it was due to recreational coyote calling ("we recreational coyote callers seem to have managed things quite well up to now")???
Pick a story and stick with it Lance.
Lance: "I've never been to SD, but I've been to the ranchlands of CO and NE and one of the biggest questions I always walk away with is what in the hell do all these coyotes eat? There's nothing out there but inch tall grass and cacti. I can certainly see why they would prey upon calves when it gets cold or have puppies to nurse."
If you knew anything about coyotes, you'd know what they eat. Have you ever thought about cutting open their stomachs to find out? They eat birds, pack rats that burrow below the sand, voles, mice, prickly pear cactus fruits, rabbits, carrion, grass, old bones and hide, corn from cow manure, plums, chokecherries, grasshoppers, and the list goes on and on.
What a telling statement!
BTW, most calf predation in CO and NE occurs before pups are born which is in the months of Feb. and March, not May and June when coyotes are feeding hungry pups. Most calves have outgrown the problem by then. Another telling statement.
Cdog: "By comparison, I've conducted small mammal surveys on tallgrass prairie as part of rodent population studies and you would be floored at the number of mice, voles, rats and the like that live in an acre of Kansas grass."
So why would you think that NE and CO would be any different? Have you ever driven through the Nebraska sandhills at night and paid attention to how many packrats you see? Obviously not!
Cdog: "There is no shortage of food around here for predators (which is a big part of why I think our coyotes are less willing to respond than in NE. It isn't that they're harder to call or smarter; it's because they don't have the need.)."
If coyotes responded to predator calls primarily for reasons of hunger, how do you explain coyotes being called off carcass piles? I haven't skinned a coyote yet that was going hungry which is evident by the amount of fat on their hide. Coyotes respond to predator calling for many reasons other than hunger of which some are..
1. Instinct to kill
2. Territorial
3. Curiousity
You've mentioned that you howl. Well if you are howling, what does their "supposed" reluctance to respond to howling in KS have to do with hunger and prey availability? Are you using a "hunger howl"?
Again, you can't keep your stories straight.
Cdog: "Maybe if you think our local producers are too ignorant to know what you know about profit potential, you should maybe enlighten them a bit."
No need! I'm sure most of the producers who understand sheep know that the reason they're not running sheep is due to the miserable failure of the Bob Henderson's extension program.
Cdog: "What is the current subsidy on sheep?"
Not sure there is a subsidy on sheep. Might be a subsidy on wool but I believe the sheep subsidy was disolved.
Cdog: "The farms and "ranches" around here are nothing like those up that way. Whereas you might have a ranch that encompasses tens of thousands of square acres, if not several dozen square miles, most of our producers operate mixed production operations consisting of cattle, hay/ alfalfa and row crops. Their "spread" may encompass two to three square miles and is generally a fraction of that. Those that own or lease larger operations usually only have cattle grazing on a small portion of it at any given time and those herds are easy to manage and protect on their own. Moreover, most of these guys grew up running traps and shooting coyotes, just like your ranchers. They would just rather learn to do the job themselves and take care of it on their own."
Once again, you contradict yourself.
What is there to "do themselves" or "take care of on their own" if there is very little predation?
Keep your lawyer handy because I'm about ready to rest my case regarding my opinion of your writings.
Cdog: "I can't really tell, though, which you enjoy more. The debate? Or picking someone to publicly attack every six months."
I'm not attacking you personally, I'm attacking what you write and your contradictions.
It's very easy. I have a real problem with misinformation and those who think they know so much more than they do. I think readers deserve better. The difference between myself and others is that I tend to be quite candid about it and I'll take the criticism for that.
Scott (previous): "I don't have any problems with recreational coyote hunters nor writers who have the experience to back what they are talking about. I just have a problem with writers who write about other's experiences as opposed to having enough experience to write from their own experiences.
Cdog (in response): "You're delusional. If you have truly followed my writing in T&PC, which I have been doing since 1992, you would know that the first article I did on anyone's experience other than my own was the two part series I did featuring Rich Higgins entitled "Coyote Speak". If I recall, I didn't take any personal credit for any of the information I offered the reader, giving full credit to Rich. Later came "Coyote Nirvana" featuring Leonard. Again, I assumed no credit for that technique and the only mention I made of myself in the text was of the successful results I had enjoyed from misting. In any event, both the misting and howling pieces were done only after I'd had a year or more to try the techniques out for myself. (I'd been using howling for a number of years. Rich's methods were what I was testing for my own satisfaction.)
Like I said, I just have a problem with writers who write about other's experiences as opposed to having enough experience to write from their own experiences. It's nothing personal Lance, it's just a hangup I have.
Cdog: "If you think for one minute that I hijacked their ideas or intellectual property without their permission, maybe you need to speak with them before leveling such an accusation."
No, you rightfully gave Rich and Leonard the credit they deserved for the things you didn't know. Never suggested otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that you didn't have a lot of personal experience with the methods you teach so you probably don't know what circumstances those methods best apply in. At least you didn't claim Leonard's "magic mist" as a cover scent like some other fast buck artist did.
That doesn't change the fact that a lot of what you write is not from your own personal experiences which is obvious from your comments above.
Cdog: "Am I the alleged fast buck artist in this comment? If so, go back and re-read the article. Leonard was the contributor on that piece and he okay'd the text as published. I, myself, use misting and am the last person to refute its efficacy. Please clarify this remark."
Why would you even ask when you just said that Leonard reviewed the article?
Why would you even think I was talking about you? Are you paranoid or what?
No, it was not you. It was some "fast buck artist" that criticized Leonard's mist as not working as a cover scent which was never it's intended purpose. My drawing attention to this incident won me an honorary membership into the coveted PAK group.
Figure it out yet?
That really upset me. Leonard gave away a really valuable piece of information only to have someone criticize it because they were too ignorant to know how to apply it's use.
Cdog: "My experiences parallel that of many of the guys on here, so for that, I'm accused of improprieties? Ain't that special?"
I wouldn't call having a lack of personal experience to write on an impropriety. It's just my hangup. I don't know that anyone else cares so don't lose any sleep over it.
Remember how much I enjoyed your cow chip story? That was great writing.
Cdog: "In this case, your ignorance of the conditions commonly encountered in calling farm country gets in the way of your myopic view of calling coyotes. I have hunted in the various environs of the country where coyotes live and a lot of the techniques employed out west are impractical here. This is the conventional east-west argument that never seems to die. Am I to agree with you that because we choose to do things differently here than you, we lack "experience"?"
Ahh...ok?
I suppose that would explain why we killed 3 out of 5 coyotes on Sunday Jan. 8th in table top flat farm country in the St. Francis, KS hunt. Yup, shor nuff got me thar!
Tell me Lance, what techniques that are employed out west are impractical where you are? Hmmmm??? This should be interesting.....
You made the allegation now lets hear you back the smack tomcat.
Cdog: "Please share that with my wife. Bless her heart, she never sees me between November 1 and March 1 because I spend all my days off out hunting or out of state chasing coyotes. I average 7,000 miles on my poor little truck each fall and winter just running around three and a half counties trying to whack a couple dozen coyotes. It's been that way since I was 16 years old and was able to drive paved roads without fear of being arrested. I just don't have the experience that you've acquired doing this game full time for a living, or that I don't play the game by your rules. In your eyes, that's inexperience? If so, you've just called 95% of the callers in this country ignorant buffoons that lack the experience to even have an opinion about anything calling related."
Well if you have all that experience, why do you write about other's techniques more than your own and why do you make so many excuses up for not killing more coyotes in your area?
Don't go looking for a support group, I'm not addressing anyone else but you right now.
Cdog: "It isn't rocket science, although guys like you would like to make us think it is. You lay claim to everything you say, but I suspect most of it came to you from unnamed sources that you conveniently overlook mentioning."
First off, no where did I ever claim that coyote calling was difficult. Anyone can call coyotes. The difficulty comes in killing over 50% of the coyotes you see, killing coyotes on over 50% of your stands, and hitting with 80% of your shots.
Secondly, to suggest that I layed claim to everything I say is absolutely untrue. Nobody is an island and I certainly never made that claim or even insinuated such.
You're really getting desperate now.
Cdog: "That same thirty years of experience has been applied outside my normal hunting area and done a pretty good job of racking up dead coyotes. All things being equal, applying those skills hereabouts and the numbers go down leads you to deduce that the most influential parameter contributing to the decrease in call-ins has to do with local conditions and the local coyotes."
Excuses, excuses!
If the coyotes are there, they can be called and killed. It's that simple.
Cdog: "I sure didn't see you hunting this area during either of the last two St. Francis hunts. What's up with that? Your implication is that you could do as well here as anywhere. Or can you?"
Hahaha! Listen to you. The guy who writes about the contest but doesn't participate is going to judge me based on where I'm hunting. Why would I go to "this area", whereever that is, when I already have an area to call that I'm familiar with and comfortable with?
FWIW, the area I hunt in is one of the most heavily called areas around but the coyotes are still there and can still be called using the right combination of technique and sound.
My implication? I didn't imply anything other than coyotes can be called and killed wherever coyotes are. You said yourself you go, you call, you kill coyotes and in the next breath you're contradicting yourself by telling everyone how difficult it is. Try to find some consistancy in your stories Lance.
Cdog: "Still sound stupid?"
Yes! You totally lost me on your football stadium analogy.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Cdog: "Then again, I don't think you have a sense of humor. For example, look at Tripp's skunk thread. For three pages, the rest of us are intentionally giving him bad information and humorously setting him up for a very nasty experience (he wasn't fooled, he played right along) and you jump in on page four with this matter of fact, this is how you do it piece of advice but not without taking a dig at everyone else here that's ever strung steel."
See how much fun being a critic can be?
I didn't want to see Tripp get hosed by the skunk and he agreed that my comments made sense as most people would who have dealt with skunks. Keep giving bad information Lance, that seems to be your forte'.
Cdog: "This shows that you don't even know me, yet you choose to criticize me. My entire academic background centered around ethology and the developmental behavior of birds of prey. I've been reading journal literature since the mid-80's and would guess that I have at least as good a grasp of biometrical analysis of that data as you, except that I maintain an objective mind and don't preface all my negative remarks with such catchy phrases as "snapshot in time" and "false assumptions" as my default position on all things science. Like them or not, the hypotheses examined in those studies can only be tested using the techniques we have available and there aren't any covert government agencies or black helicopters involved to skew the results in someone else's favor. If you know statistics, you know how to identify the limitations of those studies. Draw your own conclusions but they've all been subjected to peer review and they're not all wrong.."
ahhhh.....ok?
Man you are paranoid. I was simply responding to DAA. Wasn't even talking about you or to you.
To quote Dr. Phil: "You wouldn't worry about what people thought of you if you knew how seldom they did".
Cdog: "If so, then why do you continue to compare my skill level with yours?"
I didn't compare your skill level to mine. Based on what you write, there's nothing to compare.
Cdog: "My assigment with T&PC is to write about calling farm country."
What a shame considering the fact that there is USUALLY more coyotes called in ranch country than farm country.
Cdog: "I've been Q's guest up there twice. In a day and a half on trip 1, I called 23 and we killed twelve. I did all the calling.
On this last trip, despite wind, warm weather and only half the available coyotes due to mange (Q's estimate), I called 15 and we killed 8 in two days. I guess you've never seen me call."
Did you pick the stands?
Did you do the shooting?
Talk to me when you're not dragging on Q's coattail.
Cdog: "So tell me, Scott, what are my coyote numbers here? What types of pressures do my coyotes face that you know about and I don't?"
Hahaha! How would I know that when I don't even know where "HERE" is???
I can only go by the excuses you write.
Cdog: "Pretty much sums up the philosophy behind calling them to the ravines rather than over hills where they're in sight of roads a quarter mile away. You know,... those ravines where they bed down in the daytime to stay hidden - their "comfort zones"?"
You call them to the ravines where they already are? You are truly amazing!
Cdog: "the different direction thing is self explanatory and using a different sound is not new nor sage advice."
Never claimed it was.
Cdog: "Why would anyone pay to be told what you can find for free on the web?"
That statement says more about your level of knowledge than anything I have addressed.
You honestly believe that words on a computer screen is a substitute for personal instruction???
Bwahahahahaha! Damn you're funny!
Save that thought.
Interestingly, Albert Pilling started this thread. Why don't you ask him what personal instructions have done for his success. Go ahead, ask him.
Cdog: "Neither one of us is going to give up, regardless of how wrong you are."
Talk is cheap!
Cdog: "How about you don't read my articles and I won't invite you over for Christmas dinner next year."
Sounds good!
Hope your lawyer enjoyed the banter.
~SH~
[ January 12, 2007, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 12, 2007, 11:40 PM:
TA .17 Rem.
I'm asking $300 for one day and $500 for two days with a money back guarantee if you don't believe the instruction was worth it.
I can write forever about calling techniques but there is no substitute for showing you how to do it. Discounts? In the case of someone who can help me in some way, yes I would consider a discount.
~SH~
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on January 13, 2007, 08:42 AM:
I would rather trap all day in minus 10 weather than type as much as Lance and Scott have in the last few threads. (Actually that is what I have been doing for the last few days). But anyway, a couple of quick notes on instruction. I am a fair coyote trapper, actually I consider myself pretty damn good with snares and average with the steel. I have quite a bit of experience and have spent alot of time with guys that have alot of experience and I'm over 40 years old so and have been employed professionally as a "ADC Man". So theoretically I am supposed to know plenty and not "need" instruction, right? Wrong! Last year I spent an exorbanent amout of money to go to Craig O'Gorman for trapping instruction and I will say it was money well spent. If you want to learn, and have the capacity to do so, you need to go to guys that actually live, breathe, and eat coyote. There are guys that are so consumed that coyote behavior is on there mind more than anything else and they have the "drive" that leads them to stay in that mode 24/7. I have been around Scott some and he is one of those guys. I think the reason he pisses people off occasionally is the ever questioning mind. He wants to know what you think, but then he wants to know why and he won't quit until he gets either good sound reasoning, or he proves your theory wrong. Craig O'Gorman pisses alot of people off also. For alot of the same reasons, and a little jelousy thrown in for good measure. But I'll guarantee you this, since I have been able to keep the attitude that I can learn from those that are more experienced and haven't got so full fo myself to think that my "30 years experience" is all I need, I will be contacting Scott for instruction as soon as the budget will allow. And I'm going to go to Slim Pedersen for cat instruction if he ever offers it in this part of the country again. Hell, I may even have Leonard teach me how to "mist" some day!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 13, 2007, 10:18 AM:
I'd pay for instruction, IF there was someone who could teach me about my own area.
I believe my money would be wasted on Scott, but I believe Dave's money would be well spent.
Hell, I'd let him keep the $500, if he came out here (and went hunting with me) at all.
But I'm not interested in learning how it works in SD, unless it can be proven that it works here too.
Somehow I doubt that's the case, though.
I got my fork and knife, and I am still waiting for someone to attempt my challenge, let alone complete it.
Lance has a list of those who have tried, and some of you can list your own successes, in Kansas.
__________________________________________________
When I went to roadracing school, we used an excercise to teach us to see everything inside our field of vision, without our eyes flitting from thing to thing.
At 175 mph you don't have the luxury of taking the time to move your eyes to see.
Why can't this same "macro-vision" be used for predator hunters? I fail to understand why Albert HAS TO move to see?
Krusty
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 13, 2007, 10:55 AM:
Thanks for the reply Scott. I'm sure the 500 would be well spent getting instructions from you. But i'm like Cal and i'm a little short on the extra funds also at this time. I have another hunt set up for later this winter maybe i can come up with the extra cash..
I looked at a map and i see that the area i call is north of where you live. Anyway thanks Scott and maybe we can get together in the future... Tim A.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 13, 2007, 10:56 AM:
"Why can't this same "macro-vision" be used for predator hunters? I fail to understand why Albert HAS TO move to see?"
----------------------------
Simply because tunnel vision won't cut it in the hunting world. This ain't road racing we are talking about. Shucks I can't imagine a car racer living very long if he used tunnel vision on a public road either. LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2007, 12:05 PM:
quote:
I fail to understand why Albert HAS TO move to see?
Boy, if that statement doesn't show inexperience! Hardly anybody has not been surprised by a coyote outside of their field of view.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on January 13, 2007, 01:05 PM:
Scott. If I weren't so old and crippled up, and have to use a four wheeler to get me within 50 yards of my calling stand. I would pay your way down here and you daily fee in a heart beat. The same goes for Lance, Q, Rich,Cal and many more. Yes DAA you would be way very high on that list.
Conditions being what they are I just thank God that Leonard lets us gather here so we can punch, kick, and bite with no red flags being thrown.
Scott. I don't know how to make cute little smiley faces, edit: but I am asking this question with a big smiley face. Just how many times do you keep hitting a nail once the head is flush with a board??????????????.
[ January 13, 2007, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 13, 2007, 01:37 PM:
Some nails have to be counter sunk. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2007, 01:40 PM:
That's funny, Ronnie!
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 13, 2007, 01:56 PM:
I have called the last couple years east of Salina on public land mostly, with a few invites on private land. I don't see lots of difference between what I do in "ranch country" and "farm country". Ive killed some coyotes on public ground and I know one guy in particular that calls a bunch of coyotes more or less straight north of you Lance. I agree there may be some better areas to hunt in the world but there seems to be plenty of coyotes in that part of the world to hunt.
Very good thread this makes HM very interesting to read.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 13, 2007, 02:36 PM:
Scott, I can appreciate you being thourough in your responses but Jesus K-rist!!! I have to take vacation days just to get through one of your threads.
Enough bullshit from the both of you, I say neither of should burden us with posts that long again until you each travel to the others place & hunt for a couple days.....what say ye? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 13, 2007, 03:25 PM:
I guess I misunderstood Albert's question, because no matter what you can't see what's outside your field of view, without MOVING to change that view.
If I have a partner, it's HIS job to watch what I cannot (my field of view, is over 180°, and I have learned to use all of it).
If I don't have a partner, then I better move if I want to see behind me.
I can't imagine that anyone ever can sit so completely still that they would never ever change their view, or that they would want to.
Now that I took a really close look at it, it seems like a stupid question.
Rich,
I'm not talking about tunnel vision, I'm talking about learning to SEE everything that is in your field of view, WITHOUT moving your eyes (as much, or at all).
Most people use rapid eye movement, with their attention "flitting" their view, from item to item.
I'm talking about learning to focus your attention on EVERYTHING all at once, not zoning out and paying attention to nothing. It's about being able to SEE something in your field of view, by moving your attention, not your eye muscles.
I'd think as a martial artist, you of all people would be able to understand where I am coming from?
I could be wailing along at 150 mph, and without moving my eyes or my head, I could see the track in front of me, the bike beside me, the tachometer on my dashboard, my hands on the bars, etc.
(Yes Leonard, there were times when my hearing would "over-ride" my racer-vision, and I would have to move my eyes/head to look around me.)
If you were talking to me on my radio, you could ask me for any one of these pieces of information, and I could tell you without having to look again.
(*at the same time, I could tell you what gear I was in, what place I was in, and who was ahead or right behind me, and probably how many points I needed to win ANOTHER championship)
I do use this "macro-vision" while I drive on public roads, I use it while shooting clay sports, and I use it on a calling stand.
Once I learned how to do it, just like walking, it became part of me, and I do it without forethought.
Krusty
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 13, 2007, 03:47 PM:
You ride a mighty fast bike, I'll give ya that much.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on January 13, 2007, 03:58 PM:
Krusty
Look at the smiley. Now without moving you head or eyes tell me what the time is on that little clock on the bottom right hand corner of your computer screen.
There's a big difference between looking and seeing and it has to do with the circle of focus. Coyotes have the same problem.
Dennis
[ January 13, 2007, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 13, 2007, 04:17 PM:
And coyotes certainly move their heads to look at something. When approaching a stand they often look to either side or behind them to locate their companions.
Last month I called in a mature female that stopped ten yards in front of me and went into stealth mode when she saw something (me) that she didn't quite like. She sloooowly lowered her head and stared at me, then she slooowly moved her eyes to her left looking for her buddy, sloooowly moved her eyes back at me, slooowly moved her whole head to her left and slooowly moved her head back toward me although her eyes were still looking toward her left, then slowly shifted her eyes back toward me. I chuckled out loud at her and she quickly raised her head and stared at me then turned and casually walked back the way she had come. She moved as slowly and deliberately as we do while on stand.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 13, 2007, 04:34 PM:
Rich,
I rode a fast bike, I had to give it up.
After a big tumble, on a sanctioned streetcourse, I just couldn't wrap my mind around doing it anymore.
Dennis,
My soda was in the way, but that IS how it works.
I don't have to "look at" the smilie, or the clock, I see them both.
Krusty
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 13, 2007, 09:22 PM:
Jason: "Scott, I can appreciate you being thourough in your responses but Jesus K-rist!!! I have to take vacation days just to get through one of your threads."
Jason,
Nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to read my posts. If you don't like them due to length or content, skip over them. It's that damn simple. I'll write how I want to write within Leonard's rules of conduct.
Who gave you the striped shirt and whistle and nominated you the "forum police"?
Varmint Hunter: "Just how many times do you keep hitting a nail once the head is flush with a board??????????????."
Depends on the hardness of the board and how long it takes for me to get tired PARDNER.
Cal,
We'll swap instructions because I know I can learn as much from you just as I did when I hunted with Q. The respect is mutual.
~SH~
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