The New Huntmastersbbs!: Do you miss "the good old days??"

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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on October 17, 2006, 03:47 PM:

Compared to last year, or ten years ago, or even twenty, how's your year shaping up?

I've had some amazing days as of late. A friend of mine and I, on a hot streak, picked up 9 in 2 hours 45 minutes last month during a hunt that totalled 28 coyotes and 5 badgers. Another solo hunt yielded a dozen. Hunts around the house are counting another dog or two most times out. And Sunday morning, on 7 stands, I called a six-pack, a single bobcat, a four-pack, a single, a double and a cat, a triple, and nada on the last stand. The day before wasn't quite that good, but almost. We're seeing three to five more for every shot.

I'm just not that lucky or that good. This has to be a great year in the making.

What's it like in your neck of the woods?

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on October 17, 2006, 07:30 PM:

I think every area has its boom and bust cycles. Around here we are on a bust cycle. Mange has really got its hooks in our population. I am sure I’ll do alright but I think only 50% will be skinnable. The coon will catch hell though as soon as the fur primes up. My season doesn’t start for a couple more weekes but I won’t be able to really get after them until about the third week in November. To much work to do yet.

It could be quite a chore to break a hundred this year but I’ll hunt clear through February if I have to. LOL

Good hunting.

Q,

Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on October 17, 2006, 08:04 PM:

Gary,how many Coyotes have you killed thus far this season?Gary

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on October 17, 2006, 08:08 PM:

Southern Arizona looks to be so-so this year. Ive not seen lots of drive by sightings, but did see a fair share of squashed pups on the roadside a month or so ago.
Ive not been out calling yet, still has to much of a summer feel in the air for my liking,although last two nights, it has begun to cool down some. Maybe first part of november will kick off the hunting season for me.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 17, 2006, 08:56 PM:

I can think of Old days and good days. But they aren't the same.

Years back, I used to hunt and trap several hundred animals each season for their fur. My ability to pay for my winter propane and heating oil depended on those fur checks.

I didn't particularly like it when people called me at two in the morning, with a hungry raccoon in their kitchen or a skunk in their living room, But I got out of bed and took care of the problem each time, I had a truck payment to make.

These are the good days. I can finally afford to pay my bills and the wolves are no longer at my door each night. I had a great time in days gone past, and took a hell of a lot of game. But I wouldn't trade the life I live now to go back. I no longer skin the low grade coyotes, and I don't stay up half of the night sewing up holes in fox.

I now hunt and trap, only because it is something that I love to do, the fickle fur market no longer keeps me awake with worry.

Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on October 17, 2006, 09:05 PM:

Hey Leonard,

Would you please penalize member #708 for taunting and piling on?

Sincerely,

Member #619

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 17, 2006, 09:12 PM:

I'll tell everybody at the campout that he's a liberal.

Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on October 17, 2006, 09:15 PM:

Just make him sleep between Alec Baldwin, Howard Dean and Michael Moore.

That'll teach him.

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 17, 2006, 11:58 PM:

I agree with Q. Every area seems diffrent. There seems to be alot of pups here this year and so far the season has been ok. I really dont hunt hard till after Nov. To many crops still on and to many leaves yet to tell, still got alot of areas that I cant hunt yet do to deer hunters.

Time will tell!

Brent

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 18, 2006, 05:49 AM:

I miss the good old days in at least one way. There used to be a Helluva lot less people living around here. And a Helluva lot less guys out calling. Literally, most of the places I used to go, are now covered in new houses and grocery stores and schools and churches and roads and masses of humanity. Makes me ill. Also forces me to have to travel WAY further than I used to in order to get in a decent day of calling and not have people driving through my stands all day.

Coyote numbers out away from the sickening masses of humanity, seem to be pretty much the same as they have always been. More coyotes, than the 1080 days. Ups and downs, like everyone else has said. So far this year, having only been out twice, it looks like numbers are definitely down in the areas I've been to. Lots of bunnies too. Suspect airplanes and getters got there before I did... Going to have to move around a bit and see if I can't find a nice clump out there.

- DAA

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 18, 2006, 11:26 AM:

Dave,

I couldn't agree more.Most of the spots I used to hunt are either subdivisions,or overrun with callers or motorcycle/ATV riders.LOL I too have taken to putting some serious miles on the truck to find the coyotes but it has been well worth it.We have found some great areas with lots of coyotes to call. [Smile]

Good Hunting Chad

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on October 18, 2006, 01:13 PM:

Hey Nahuatl: Those few hunts would make a good year for a lot of folks. It has been too hot around here to even get me interested, but my time is coming. I hope your luck stays good.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 18, 2006, 04:08 PM:

Someone who is wise once said; "If you miss the Good Old Days, turn off your air conditioner."

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on October 22, 2006, 07:16 AM:

"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now." ...- Suite: Judy Blue Eyes

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 23, 2006, 12:18 PM:

In the "good ol' days", there were country folks and townies. If you farmed, you lived in the country. If you didn't, you lived in town. Pretty cut and dried.

Nowadays, the biggest problems around here has nothing to do with all the new people getting into calling. If that were to bother me, I'd have a real problem since my writing pretty much encourages new people to try calling out. lol

Anyway, the three biggest problems I face today are 1) city folks moving to the country and building houses on every quarter section of ground.

2) Absentee landowners that buy ground as an investment and don't give the local renter the authority to grant or deny trespass privileges. In the past three years, a lot of the old guys I've hunted and trapped on all my life have died and their ground has been bought up by out of state investors that are impossible to get hold of for permission.

And, the number 3 problem around here (drum roll), leasing for deer hunting. Only in the past two years or so have a bunch of farmers that lease their CRP acreage to non-resident outfitting operations and out of state rich people started to learn the value of friends, financial responsibility and fire departments. Because of their leasing efforts, many of these people have traded lifelong friendships for the cash payments they received for their ground access. At the same time, many of those leases went to hell because the leaser ended up killing more than they paid for in their lease agreements and the farmer felt shafted for the discrepancy. And, in one case, a large operation (not unlike USO, throat clearing cough) leased up a huge expanse of area and the volunteer firefighters in that region coincidentally refused to volunteer. (USO (or whoever) sure as hell didn't show up for that big range fire to put it out. Be careful whose toes you step on.)

Things are vastly different around here than when I was a kid and I suspect the changes will continue until none of us gets to hunt for free anymore. At that point, hunting of any kind will be a privilege rather than a right.

Posted by Freddie (Member # 952) on October 23, 2006, 07:35 PM:

Yea, I had some good old days, too, but I'm too busy now making THESE the good old days ! Hunt on!

Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on October 23, 2006, 07:38 PM:

You got that right Lance. The future's coming fast and right now it sure ain't lookin' pretty.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 23, 2006, 07:42 PM:

Downright ugly if you're poor! I know for a fact that the spread we call home doesn't have many coyotes. Check it every morning. Only saw one and it was mangey AND on the neighbor's side of the fence.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 23, 2006, 07:51 PM:

Its quickly becoming a rich mans sport around here as well. More and more leases every year. Your a lucky one if you got private land to hunt on for deer. I can still get permission for other game, but deer are like gold it seems. And you pretty much gotta forget calling coyotes until the second week of December. You might spook bambi.

Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on October 23, 2006, 10:29 PM:

Gary, I'd answer the question, but then I'd really feel like I was piling on. Truth be told, I called another cat while cooking the brownies for the campout, between putting them in the oven and taking them out.

Steve Criner and I called a coyote while hunting at the camp out - you could hear a Skilsaw in the background and the workers pounding hammers in a new subdivision nearby.

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 24, 2006, 09:26 PM:

Gary!!!!

You made those brownies, no wonder I was hallucinating after eating them. Just what kind of cactus were you looking for in those super thick cacti forests?!?!

No kidding man, those were spectacular!!! Thank you! man they were great!!!

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on October 25, 2006, 06:28 AM:

Cdog, Yes isn't it terrible that those farmers and ranchers have figured out that thier deer are worth something. They used to "give" them to friends that didn't do a damn thing for them, but now can sell them and maybe stay afloat in the ag industry. I understand that in places "big money" is buying up land and they really don't need the hunting income. But the people I deal with are small family outfits, and with fuel and equipment costing what they do they need every penny to stay in business. A prime example is the place I have been on the last two weeks. It belongs to my cousin and his family. He used to let all comers in for $50. He would have as high as 40 hunters tearing around, leaving gates open, throwing trash everywhere, tearing up roads and generally shooting anything that moved. All for $2000. Now he makes 5 times that or more from me, Only has a handful of hunters that he doesn't have to worry about because I am there to keep an eye on them. No gates left open, no beer bottles, pop cans etc.. The deer herds are healthier and better than ever due to a little management. That amount of income has made a huge difference in his operation. They have been in a drought cycle for several years and have had to cut back on cattle and he has a job running heavy equipment part time to make ends meet. So the hunting income there is a make or break deal and he is damn glad to have it. Funny, none of the guys that hunted for practically nothing have ever tried to help him out in any way. They just piss and moan that they have to go hunt public land somewhere. Remember there are always two sides.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 25, 2006, 07:14 AM:

I can and have seen both sides of it, Cal. Its good for the farmers, no doubt. But its also taken hunting away from alot of working people. Not everyone can afford $1500 for a 3 day hunt. Or cant afford to pay $10-$15 per acre for a small piece of land for himself and his kids to hunt on. There are far more that cant afford it than can. In the long run, thats going to take alot of potential young hunters out of the equasion. I guess that will free up overcrowded public lands eventually but it will also take away badly needed numbers when votes come, not to mention many that may have been hunters will have not been exposed to it.

Its a double edged sword. Public lands around this area arent worth hunting and it costs to hunt private. Im not having a problem but know many that are. Dont know that there is a good answer. Thats why I said above its becoming a rich mans sport. Just like everything else in this world.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 25, 2006, 07:16 AM:

Yup, Cal your right. There are two sides to every story.

And I'm on the other side. Don't take this personal, you spoke your side, now it's my turn.

I've always been a responsible hunter, I don't drive off of roads, and I don't leave trash. I never leave gates open, and if I find a down section of fence, I always make temporary repairs before leaving, then hunt down the Rancher to let him know where permanent repairs need to be made. Stray dogs running stock are dealt with quickly and decisively. Broken waterlines or windmills are reported immediately. I've never shot at a windmill or any farmer's equipment

I've always gone out of my way to show the utmost respect for the Farmers, Ranchers and their lands that I trap and hunt on.

And what do I get in return? Snide remarks that implicate that since I don't lease my hunting land I'm a slob hunter?

I get out-of-State land owners who buy up land, lock it off and post it and tell their local hands to allow no one in. I get ******* ranchers locking off 50 yards of private land between public roads and National Forest lands, BLM lands and State Trust lands.

Don't tell me that a Rancher who drives a brand new $50,000 diesel pick up needs to lease his lands just to make ends meet and feed his family.

That's bullshit plain and simple. He's just looking for an excuse to make a few more dollars to cover his piss poor business management.

So if you happen across some prick land owner, pissing and moaning because the gate he locked up keeping the public off of public lands, suddenly happens to have a padlock full of JB Weld, You can tell him that my name is Tim Behle, and he can kiss my goddamned ass.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 25, 2006, 08:01 AM:

I'm glad you spoke up, Cal. Even if a man has a different opinion, it is good to hear from the other side.

I have seen abuse, especially locking gates on public land with grazing leases. You know, sometimes it just isn't possible to turn around and drive fifty miles the other way when you get to a gate that suddenly has a lock on it. And, if I need to pass, as an act of desperation, I cut a link in the chain, rather than destroy the man's lock. And, I mean not just an inconvenience . I mean, occasionally, and literally, there is no other way out, and no gas.

However, I do understand your message that it is a win/win situation for the land owner. And, those that lost priviliges that they didn't pay for, didn't respect the land and (unfortunately) that's always the way when something doesn't cost$.

There is plenty of blame to go around. At some point, we won't be raising enough shooters and then who are you going to charge, to make ends meet?

Maybe the end of an era is fast approaching? I already feel sad that my grandkids won't have the opportunities that I have had.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on October 25, 2006, 09:29 AM:

C'mon Tim, You live in Arizona. How much friggin public land do you need? What percentage is it that you can't get to? We have a small amount land locked on this place also. Too bad. You can't expect anyone to give up private property rights just due to you. You don't shoot windmills. Great. I like you Tim, and believe that you are a good guy and respectful. But would you want someone JB welding the locks to your house and vehicles? C'mon, private is private. I have seen gates and signs shot to hell, Homestead cabins cut up for firewood, cattle shot, and all kinds of travesties, but I sure don't think you did it. Surely you don't allow public access to your backyard? Do you want someone you don't know hanging out in your yard? Think of it like Alaska, if you want in that bad, charter a helicopter. Buy a paraplane. Nothing is impossible. I know there are good hunters out there, but as a whole our public lands here are a mess. Garbage, junk cars, on and on. But beyond that there is tons of public land in Wyoming and all over the west. I hunt alot of it personally. I don't hunt for myself where I guide. Conflict of interest. So I hunt public and find other places. I'm not rich, but I have no problem finding places to hunt. I offer a service, and access. If a certain amount of the hunting public is willing to pay for it then so be it. If they weren't willing and able to pay then the market for it would fail. We offer some hunts for what a rifle and scope costs. If you can't save that much in a year, maybe you need a better job. But I still don't have any effect on the thousands that choose to hunt public land. I have even told a good many guys that didn't want to pay some really good places to hunt public. And the public in the areas that I manage have better deer and antelope due to the spillover from properly managed land. Leonard, the gate deal sucks. Here, there are two kinds of roads. Private and public. Public is posted as such and won't be locked. Private roads here are like private land and it is the hunters responsibility to know where he is and if he has enough gas to be there. If a guy is in a jam, I have no problem with him cutting a gate lock, using a cow camp or anything else. But most of the cut locks here is to get to a deer or antelope.

Edit: By the way Tim, the rancher (my cousin) I was refering to drives a 96 Dodge with over 200,000 miles on it. He has a couple of ranch trucks that are 70 and 80's models also. He did buy a fairly new tractor a few years ago, the one and only. Don't confuse subsidised eastern farmers with western family ranchers.

[ October 25, 2006, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 25, 2006, 10:25 AM:

You express yourself well, Cal.

To clarify, I was not talking about private roads, strictly BLM, strictly public roads.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 25, 2006, 04:47 PM:

I can think of only one gate imperticular that gives us a problem each and every year. The road is public and it runs thru private property. The sign states private for the next mile. Every darn year the knuckle head rancher locks the gate. There is a heck of a lot of great BLM hunting on the other side of the rancher's land but he closes off all access.

I heard Tyler Higgins has a key for those kind of locks! [Wink]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 25, 2006, 04:52 PM:

Danny, you are going to get us into trouble. The fact is that sometimes ranchers with graze leases and hunters that want keep other hunters out of their hunt area will illegally lock gates to state trust land , BLM, and National forest land.
Tyler and I use our 6mm keys on those locks.

Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on October 25, 2006, 05:08 PM:

If somebody drives a newer pickup and has some land does not make them rich. You know and I know that the extra cash helps pay the bills. Not only does that guy have all the same expenses that you have but he also has all the extra expenses of owning that land. I know that leases make it lots harder for the average guy but it seems if you want something real bad you will figure out a way of getting it, either by finding some public ground or saving those extra pennies. I also know that the thing that we love to do most is one of the easier things to find permission for. I guess that makes us lucky for the obsession we chose.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 25, 2006, 07:15 PM:

quote:
C'mon Tim, You live in Arizona. How much friggin public land do you need?

All of it.

It's public land, I'm a member of the public, why should I be denied access to lands that my ancestors fought for, and my taxes pay to maintain?

Arizona is one of the fastest growing States in the Nation. It is also made up of over 70% public lands. That means that all of the growth is taking place on less than 30% of the land.

People buy up land that adjoins public land, with a traditional access road crossing it, Many of these roads were built years ago and have been maintained ever since with public funding. So all they do is put up a locked gate, and they now have sole access to millions of acres of public land. I don't have a problem with people denying access to private lands, but I feel that before they should be allowed to close off a traditional access point, they should be required to sit down with the State or Federal agents and work out a reasonable alternative route.

Case in point, just to the west of me is the North end of the Mule Mountains. A wonderful place to hunt both Mule and Coues deer. Access used to be a thirty minute drive down a two track. Then someone locked the gate, because the road crossed less than a quarter mile of private land. There was an alternative road available, so State policy prohibited them from fighting it. Unfortunately, the "Alternative" road takes over 3 hours to traverse, you must have four wheel drive, and you will damage your vehicle.

The Valley to the East of me contains over 60 square mile sections of nearly all State Trust lands. With one road passing from North to South. On the south end, several years ago, the rancher moved a section of road about 15 yards. From the public side of the fence, to the private. No one said anything to him, because access hadn't been denied. Now that the old section of road was ripped up and has over grown, he locked the gate on the private land. AZ Fish and Game, have offered to pay to move the road back, but the State Trust board ( Made up of mostly cattle ranchers ) is sticking hard to Clinton's no new road policy, and refuses to allow them to move it back.

On the North end is a county public road that goes to the Historical Surrender site of Geronimo, before joining the road to the South. The rancher there went to the county and asked them to abandon that road. Because there were only a few ranchers who lived on it, and they were willing to maintain the road themselves, the County abandoned it to save on maintenance costs.

Guess what? The first thing they did, was put up a gate and lock it.

They will still let you hunt that public land, provided you pay them a trespass fee and hire an "Approved Guide"

Let's say you have 100 hunters who want to hunt on 100 sections of land. 70 Sections are Public land, 30 sections are on Private. Access has traditionally been open for all to enter, but then a rancher owning 15 sections, locks the gates denying access not only to his land, but 35 sections of public land. Now you still have 100 hunters, but they can only hunt on 50 sections, decimating the herds. Do you really think that it is right for that Rancher to sell Access to the public land? If he doesn't want people hunting on his 15 sections, that is fine, post it and we will gladly stay off, but don't try to sell me access to land that already belongs to me as a US Citizen. That's BS, plain and simple.

You are a good guy Cal, and I have a lot of respect for you. But I can't help but believe that if you were in a similar situation as I am, and depended on access to public lands in order to hunt, then you would have the same or similar opinion. Unfortunately, part of your families livelihood depends on your Cousin selling access to public lands and public owned wildlife. In my mind, that should be illegal in all States.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 25, 2006, 07:15 PM:

After hunting with Rich H. and Randy S. for five hours and calling in 11 coyotes, i could of sworn we where hunting in the good old days.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 25, 2006, 08:32 PM:

Tim, I moved to Az in early 83. I encountered other callers only twice in those "Good ole days". Dry stands were a rarity, and dry days were unheard of. Set up most anywhere, blow a call and coyotes would come, often in multiples. I didn't appreciate it because that was just the way things were, like shooting a hundred jacks in a day or five hundred prairie dogs in a morning. I really didn't study coyotes back then because it wasn't neccessary. I shot more coyotes with a bow than I did with a gun. Blow a call and they came.
Frankly, I like it better today. We are chasing a different animal now in different habitat. I have to know and understand it in order to consistantly call them in. It can be work, and it is far more rewarding than it was in the "good ole days".

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 25, 2006, 09:43 PM:

Eventually they'll put up gates you can't shoot your way through.
The gate I walked around today, you'd blow your hand off if you tried to shoot the lock.

It is blocking motorized access to the National Forest.

To the original question, unfortunately for me, these are the good ol days. [Smile]

Krusty

Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on November 20, 2006, 10:26 AM:

I'm adding a set of bolt cutters to my kit and a few old locks and rusty chain links.

Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on December 01, 2006, 03:46 PM:

Good points on both sides, but sorry guys, I can't appreciate the bitching on either side.

Be glad you live in states where you HAVE public lands.

[ December 01, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: The Outdoor Tripp ]

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 01, 2006, 05:19 PM:

The public land is very close to being controlled by the greenies and their lawyers.

Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on December 05, 2006, 08:23 PM:

There seems to be a general trend in loosing more of our freedoms as the population increses. China has mandatory and forcible birth control. Seems we're not too far behing with the population growth in this country. The more people there are the more laws and restrictions on you behavior and activities. Thats why I hate liberals....they refuse to curtail immigration, especially illegal immigration. It puts pressure on all our cherished natural resources and freedoms. Ever been to Europe? Almost no public land whatsoever. Everything is owned by somebody. Almost no freedom there......no wonder their governments are close to socialist.

Posted by Dsmith7136 (Member # 732) on December 07, 2006, 12:27 AM:

I'm gonna jump into this one with both feet, Fellas.

I agree that a landowner has the right to do what he likes with his land, but the WILDLIFE on his land does NOT belong to him, nor does the right to "sell" it.

They are NOT "his" deer (or elk, or ducks, or pheasants, or whatever) regardless of what he may think: Wildlife - all wildlife - belongs to the state, to the taxpaying citizens of this country and to all of us who buy hunting licenses.

Selling "rights" to shoot deer, elk, coyotes, etc. for profit is tantamount to trafficking in wild game in my opinion, and the state needs to bring this blatant privatization, exploitation, commercialization and industrialization of hunting to a halt soon, or the entire concept of wildlife management by hunting will self destruct.

Hunting recruitment is down 14% in the last 8 years, 22% over the last 24 years and dropping steadily. Us old guys are going to the happy hunting ground, and our children aren't replacing us because unless they can pay some waterfowl outfitter 250 bucks a day to whack geese, or a rancher $500 bucks to hunt "his" deer, they can't go.

And don't think for a minute the PETA freaks and other greenie groups don't see the commercialization of hunting as a golden opportunity to launch a billion lawsuits discrediting our sacred wildlife management tool (hunting) as the great social farce it's quickly becoming. Sadly, they'll be right.

Hunting is no longer about culling wildlife herds, or affordable outdoor family recreation; it's about gouging clients ($10,000 for an elk? C'mon...) and generating cash flow. It's about money and blood greed. And in the end it will be the death of our blood sports.

Surely you've noticed the only people "hunting" on the cable TV outdoor-porn-shows are bank presidents, CEOs, coprporate execs, rock stars and other celebrity types, most of whom couldn't find their ass in the dark with both hands let alone a whitetail deer in a 12-acre woodlot. Or a rabbit in a woodpile.

You don't see any blue-collar, down-home, Johnny Redneck working slobs in those productions because, although we're the "real deal", we don't photograph well. And we don't have the cash to hunt the legendary Buckhorn Ranch (who, by the way, is sponsoring this week's episode). So what we get is not a real hunt; it's a Hollyweird facsimile thereof, a steaming pile of advertorial BS. And sadly, it's becoming perceived as the norm. Canned hunts with famous guides are the stauts quo.

The day I'm forced to pay a "guide" to lead me around by the nose to shoot a damn duck, deer or prairie dog is the day I'll hang up my guns - because I'll no longer be a hunter; I'll just be another gullible client with a fat wallet and no where else to go.

Before long, you won't have to know how to scout, track, play the wind, read sign, pick a stand or any thing else about woodsmanship to be a hunter; you'll just have to show up with your Weatherby, a box of ammo and your checkbook.

Guided prairie dog hunts??? Have we really come to this? Apparently. We should be ashamed.

Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on December 07, 2006, 07:50 AM:

Well said Dsmith7136

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2006, 08:03 AM:

VERY WELL SAID

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 07, 2006, 08:40 AM:

Dsmith7136,

I couldn't agree more.

Good Hunting Chad

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 07, 2006, 10:59 AM:

Dsmith, You are correct in the fact that supposidly the game belongs to the state. Next time you hit one with your car, try to collect from the state on the damage to your car. You can collect from a rancher (at least in Wyoming) if his cow gets on the road and you hit it.
But on to more of your subject, since the rancher or farmer feeds the states animals all year is he then entitled to charge the state for grazing? Since he doesn't sell the deer, what he and the outfitter are really selling is access to private land then, correct? If you don't want to access his land, then don't pay. If you don't need a guide, then don't hire one. I don't get you guys at all. It's not that big of deal. That landowner paid for that land or is trying to somehow, so isn't it his. Aren't private rights as important as public ones? Isn't that also part of the American way. No socialism and individual rights. You have the right to buy a house, should the government then be able to tell you that you have to share that house at no cost to some bum thats to cheap to pay a little rent? If you don't like the crap on TV, change the channel.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 07, 2006, 11:08 AM:

Cal, VERY WELL SAID. [Smile]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2006, 12:21 PM:

I sure like Cal. He's a good guy. Duly noted, he is on one side of the fence; easy access.

Truthfully, his arguments faze me not a bit.

I have seen many unethical business deal type of actions from landowners, and while the gun slob is still with us, bottom line; the hunting traditions of this Country are spiraling down the toilet.

Take for instance. A landowner leaves his gates open all season for forage, water, etc. Then the animals that belong to the Public come in, find it easy living and hang around.

Come August and September, the Rancher closes and locks all those gates and charges considerable money to trespass onto his land.

Would those gates be opened and then closed, if there was no hunting season on these particular animals?

I have (personally) seen/watched a landowner, who observed hunters trespass his unposted, and unfenced land; wait for them to kill three mule deer and then drive up with the Sheriff. I had sent those hunters to that location and advised them to stay on one side of the road....which they didn't do.

What this has to do with anything, I'm not sure?

But, boy. It sure seems like me and my offspring could be priced out of the market, judging by what happens every year at Bighorn Sheep auctions and the like.

Maybe it is just American Enterprise in all it's glory, but it could (eventually) leave a bunch of us little people on the outside with our noses pressed to the glass.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on December 07, 2006, 12:28 PM:

I see two sides to this roller coaster and think both sides are right.I agree the rancher who owns private ground has every right to charge access or post his land.I don't agree he owns the wildlife that roams his land.If he fences off or plant food plots to entice wildlife and then charges access to his land,thats where i have a problem with the whole deal.I think there should be laws against it.He is exploiting free roaming animals that belongs to the state and the hunters who pay for license to hunt them.Because he owns the land,i think it's wrong to say he owns the wildlife.If there going to charge a tresspass fee,then let it be just that, and reasonable.Not an out of this world rediculous price for knowingly charging to hunt wildlife he doesn't own.I think there should be a regulation on the amount of tress pass fee they can charge.If a guy wants to hire a guide,thats fine,it has nothing to do with the above.

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 07, 2006, 01:01 PM:

One thing I have seen here in this state that burns me up is when ranchers/farmers will post there property for hand picked hunters, charge the big bucks to hunt them,then come winter when they(Elk and Deer) get into his hay or knock down some fences he calls Mr.fish and game officer to come deal with these problem animals,and wants the fish and game( us taxpayers) to remburse him for his losses.lol

[ December 07, 2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 07, 2006, 01:22 PM:

Ut, what you are talking about is wrong, and I agree with you. My opinion is that if a farmer/rancher does not allow public access and makes money off of his hunting then he is no longer entitled to state help with deer and elk in his haystacks or hayfields. The ranchers that I deal with have seen the light and will gladly lose a little hay in return for what they make back from hunting. So it is a win/win situation. The game and fish has less expense in trying to keep stuff out of haystacks, and the rancher makes it up on hunting. I see the need for guided hunts for a couple of reasons. I have two kinds of hunters, some are very capable and really don't need much of a guide, but they prefer not to deal with the masses when hunting and want something where they don't have to deal with several people chasing the same animal. The other type is the guy that has little actual feild experience and he needs a guide both to find the game and take it. There are alot of great guys that are pretty lacking in the hunting department. Either they didn't have someone to teach them when they were kids, or whoever did teach them knew very little. There are more and more of these type hunters. Mostly from the east, they didn't grow up hunting like most of us did. Where are they to turn if not to an outfitter? How do they get any practical hunting knowledge? These are also the guys that are driving the hunting industry right now as far as I can see. They have a decent income and they buy alot of stuff, and alot of licenses. I look at it alot like myself personally. If I were going to Africa or Alaska where I know little or nothing about the hunting there, I would damn sure hire the best guide I could afford.

And for Leonard.... when we leave our gates open, animals get out, they don't move in. [Wink]

[ December 07, 2006, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 07, 2006, 02:53 PM:

Thus far, the argument, in Cal's world, has centered around open rangeland, hay fields and put up hay. Unfortunately, that's only the beginning of the problem for the rest of the country.

How would you guys feel if your tax dollars were spent to fund the planting of grass for Conservation Reserve Program acreage, buffer strips and the like? Then, the landowners turns around and takes the ground upon which is found the habitat your tax dollars went to develop and leases it to out of state bankers and businessmen? Locks the gate and tells you to stay the hell out? Now, not only are you restricted from hunting deer and other animals that are as much yours as they are any other taxpayers, but the one thing that made that land even worthy enough of anyone's attention was the fact that there was gras planted on it. Before then, it was waste ground.

To throw salt into the wound even more, these are the same landowners that then years ago were pissing and moaning to the state legislature that we had too many deer!!! Then, a couple years later, some greedy rat bastard in the legislature (in our case, their names were Robin Jennison and Mike Hayden) planted the idea in their heads that nimrods from "back east" would pay them good money to shoot those deer. Now, they don't have so much of a problem. They still bitch about too many deer but their arguments get shut down pretty damned fast when they're reminded that the reason they have so many deer now is because they now let three people on that leased ground that could afford a third each of the asking price rather than the 10-20 guys that same ground has supported for hunting since their dads and granddads owned that ground.

All in all, it's my decidedly strong opinion that the arguments about feeding those deer are bullshit. The cost of doing business! It's their ag welfare CRP program around here that created the habitat the deer needed to explode in numbers in the first place. No one in the state of Kansas implemented a deer breeding program. It happened on the heels of the Farm Bill. They won't give up the welfare check for NOT FARMING, but they'll sure bitch about the supposed damage the deer their welfare program encourages does to their crops. On top of that, CRP has created a huge water shortage around here. Only now are the state water people realizing that in Kansas, CRP has led to such a profound reduction in run off that all the farm ponds are going dry. The rivers are way down and haven't been up to normal levels in seven years. One city actually nearly ran out of water this year in Kansas because of the lack of runoff. All because of CRP and "modern farming practices". Not my opinion; their studies and data have clearly demonstrated that. And yet, these are the same famers that now bitch because they have to haul water to cattle. Damn! When do they have to choose between their cake and eating it.

If you limit your consideration of this issue to what Cal describes, you're missing the majority of the issue. His is nothing compared to the problems faced back east a bit. the good news? The guides are getting so greedy that they'll probably be killing each other off before it's all said and done. Last year, greedy poachers spurred by the big money/ big deer phenomenon attacked a farmer near here, disembowled him, tried to cut his throat and left him lying in the road for dead. This past weekend, two guides delivering clients to adjacent tracts of ground got into a verbal altercation culminating in one discharging a 12 gauge shotgun at the other. Fact is, I dislike both those sumbitches and will be happy to see the one go to jail and lose his right to own firearms.

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 07, 2006, 03:33 PM:

Damn straight Lance!!! I`m of the opinion that anyone owning land that recieves one freakin` penny in Govt. money (tax dollars) should automatically have his land put on a register of land that is open to public hunting. I`m so sick of listening to farmers/ranchers piss & moan about how they can`t survive on what they make & NEED help from the govt.......bullshit!!!! You know what happens when I, as a contractor cant make ends meet....I either work harder, find another source of income or loose EVERYTHING, I`ve never heard of any govt. programs to help the rest of us small business owners pay for 45,000 dollar pickups that we drive to the coffee shop all winter so we can bitch about how ******* broke we are.

I do agree with Cal, there is a need for outfitters & I suppose it`s like any business, you have good ones & you have those that are a pimple on the ass of society.

Posted by RickE (Member # 818) on December 07, 2006, 03:57 PM:

Here's where I see hunting headed in general......we've started down a very slippery slope by turning it into "big bidness". Rick.

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?id=2690070

Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on December 07, 2006, 04:09 PM:

I am in total agreement with you guys on the CRP programs and any type of farmer welfare. The problem with that system is that it creates no turnover. If a guy is a piss poor farmer, then as in any business, he should fail, go out of business, and make room for a new farmer that has either better business practices, or better work ethic or whatever. But that isn't the way it has been working, and no room for new young guys that want to farm. I can see and agree with most all of your points Lance. Damn, must be the vernal equinox or something! [Eek!]

I don't have a problem with the hunting, but it should be considered the "cash crop" for that land. If it isn't going to make money by farming, then it can make it's money by hunting and no government assistance should be available. If the farmer doesn't want to screw with the hunting, then it should be opened to the public at a reasonable rate and that money should be paid to the farmer as a trespass or access fee. Again no money out of Uncle Sam.

[ December 07, 2006, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 07, 2006, 06:52 PM:

Cal,

I've actually had guys around here suggest that CRP acreage should all be considered public hunting since the public paid for the development of the habitat. Believe it or not, I disagree. One condition for CRP is that the ground be taken "out of production". To me, "production" is synonymous with generating revenue, be it by growing a crop or whatever. If the landowner accepts money from others on a hunt for fee basis, that ground is generating revenue above and beyond CRP and the landowner should either be required to report that income and have his CRP benefits prorated, or lose his eligibility for CRP. For them to accept federal tax dollars with one hand under the guise of CRP, while at the same time accepting user fees or lease fees from private individuals or groups with the other, the landowner is double dipping from the public cash cow. How many of these guys do you think would accurately and honestly report the income they derive from leasing? Enforcement would be a nightmare. I personally would like to see just how high the price of a head of lettuce or loaf of bread would climb if crop subsidies were to be scaled back considerably. Might be enlightening to find out just how much of my paycheck goes to support farmers, as long as the government agrees to return my share of the tax payments so I can afford that $5 a loaf bread.

Then again, those guys have it pretty good. The deer harvest here is falling well short of years past and I'm tracking to come out with about a third of the normal number of deer I usually do each year. Going to be a pretty good hit on my taxidermy business' pocket book. Maybe I ought to go to my Congressman and ask for federal assistance to bail me out and keep my head above the water line until next deer season. It would be nice to not have to work those late nights and weekends doing other people's deer mounts this year, and still get paid for it. After all, it would allow me to do my part toward keeping the price of taxidermy down at an affordable level. AZnd during all that time off, I could go to the coffee shop in my new federally subsidized pickup truck that I didn't really need, nor did I really want, but that I had to buy to avoid paying income and self employment tax on the gubmint windfall I endured. Life is pure hell.

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on December 07, 2006, 07:37 PM:

[ December 07, 2006, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 07, 2006, 08:31 PM:

I agree with the notion that a man should be able to do whatever the hell he wants to with his land but leasing land for hunting that has already been subsidized with my dollars is an idea that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

NE. does allow you to hunt any land that is enrolled in the CRP program but that usually only benifits upland bird hunters & is limited to the specific acres that have been set aside & planted accordingly which is a very small portion of land usually & leaves the rest of the land off limits, that`s all good & well, I guess, but it`s the fact that most farmers get some sort of subsidies just for being a farmer on top of any specific subsidies that apply to their situation all paid right out of my pocket but yet I can`t gain access to "THEIR" property. [Confused]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2006, 09:13 PM:

Welcome to The New Huntmasters, RickE. Glad to have you on board,

Good hunting. LB

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