quote:

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...the coyote went into one of those spins after the first shot (lung) and the second round hit it in the front leg almost took it off, then the third hit in the head knocked it down the forth went over and fifth I went up to it and finished it off. I dont know why the first shot didn't kill it in the first place, since it was hit pretty really good.

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Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 16, 2006, 02:52 PM:
 
Lets see, 5 shots to collect one coyote including 1 head shot and one lung shot yet you are pleased to KNOW the .17 is an ideal coyote tool. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Q,
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on March 16, 2006, 02:58 PM:
 
QUOTE: RedRabbit-
-------------------------------------------

Oh well, Im pleased to know the .17 is an ideal coyote tool.

-------------------------------------------

Put it this way the coyote went into one of those spins after the first shot (lung) and the second round hit it in the front leg almost took it off, then the third hit in the head knocked it down the forth went over and fifth I went up to it and finished it off.

---------------------------------------------

Where did you aim with that fifth round... to put finish off the lungshot, headshot, 3legged coyote?

Also, what kind of framing hammer do you own?
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on March 16, 2006, 02:59 PM:
 
Damnit Q
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 16, 2006, 03:33 PM:
 
RedRabbit, when these guys are finished and you've applied the proper amount of Preparation H, I would ask you to tell how you used the mist and the coyotes reaction to it. How far out was the coyote when it hit your downwind and did it approach any closer after?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 16, 2006, 03:41 PM:
 
Hey, he has balls, give him (some) credit for giving us an unvarnished account.

But, good point, Higgins. I wondered about that reaction,myself....but then I lost track of it in my haste to vilify other stuff.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 16, 2006, 03:55 PM:
 
The fifth shot hit in head and still had to shoot one more time to finish off, plus a lung shot. Know what i say B.S. big time. Leonard you have some very good points, wether you are useing a 17 cal. or larger its the shooter and correct shot placement. Now on the comment on the 17 cal. not being good enough for a serious coyote rifle. Look at these two pic.s real close, all three coyotes in pic were all head shot, no second or third shot required, in the second pic, this coyote was neck shot, no second or third shot required. You are a hell-of a nice guy Leonard but you are also a non believer. I have a 22-250 ackley that i had built for coyotes but i havent found a reason to quit useing my 17 cal. yet.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 16, 2006, 03:57 PM:
 
2nd pic.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 16, 2006, 04:17 PM:
 
TA, I don't know what I am? Ever watch the HBO show called "Curb Your Enthusiasm"? That's all I want. I don't need all these glorious accounts about the perfect seventeen caliber coyote cartridges. I have seen performance from every cartridge you ever heard of, the 17 Remington does not stand out in my mind as perfect. It's just one of many, but it isn't the perfect solution; far from it. I don't care what a guy uses, but some people believe what they read, as opposed to seeing with their own eyes. Once the average coyote hunter buys a 17 Remington, he is very reluctant to admit that it has flaws.

But, on the other hand, let me compliment you on a very good choice. The 22-250 Ackley is just about as good as it gets, as a coyote caliber....but, you still have to use a good bullet.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 16, 2006, 04:37 PM:
 
"But, on the other hand, let me compliment you on a very good choice. The 22-250 Ackley is just about as good as it gets, as a coyote caliber....but, you still have to use a good bullet."
-------------
You have to use a good bullet. I have said that so many times I can't even count em. Not many folks listen, so I just gave up. My friend Monte Dodson once told me something about those who use needle guns and light varmint bullets on coyotes. "They will learn" he said.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 16, 2006, 04:55 PM:
 
Loenard // Rich thanks for the compliments on the 22-250 ackley. I use Hornady 52 gr. A-Max bullets in it, also in my 22-250 rem i use 52 gr. sierras. The 17 rem. is not perfect but neither is any other cal.. You'll have to forgive me but i can't help it when someone says the 17 dont got it, i believe in my heart they are wrong. I carry both a 17 cal with 30 gr.bullets and the ackley in truck at all times. And like i stated the 17 has not let me down. It has taken coyotes from 50 yds. out to 456 yds with one shot kills. It has done what i have asked of it and thats why i stand by it. Take care and good shooting.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 16, 2006, 05:15 PM:
 
TA17Rem,
You are a much better shot than me. I started out in this game with a .223, and that is when I first learned about surface blowup with the blitz king type bullets. My best luck with the .223 and .22-.250 was with the sierra 55 grain "Gamekings". Both of my serious coyote rifles are quarter bores now. Good hunting.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 16, 2006, 05:22 PM:
 
We`ve all seen coyotes that seemed like they wouldn`t die, it happens with every caliber. I`ve done it myself with 22 & 30 caliber rifles & you can sometimes blame the bullet but more than likely it`s piss poor shooting & YES if your gonna shoot a .17 you`d better have a mindset of taking a GOOD shot & not just chuckin` lead at a coyote as it meanders by, that MIGHT work with larger calibers but most likely not a .17 & if your shooting a .17 in order to salvage the fur (which is why most of us who hunt with one, use it) then you ought to know the limitations of it & the available bullets.

5 SHOTS!!! If you used a poor bullet against experienced advice & had to shoot the thing 5 times & then post the story on the internet then I gotta agree with LB......you got balls.

btw... if you had just relaxed that trigger finger for a half second that coyote probably would have expired shortly.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 16, 2006, 05:28 PM:
 
Thanks Rich, but i'm just the average joe, I do practice alot though. I shoot alot of paper targets and pop cans. i have shot maybe 100 rounds at coyotes and fox and 500 or more at targets. I also use a BDC dial on my scope and that has helped with the longer shots. I have a shooting range that is 1000 yds. long. I practice shooting from 100 yds to 600 yds with the 17 rem and 22-250 ackley, i use shooting sticks when ever possible and practice off hand shooting as well. Practice wont make me perfect, but will help me to become better. Thanks
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 16, 2006, 09:53 PM:
 
If, the lungs were trashed like you stated, the one shot would have been sufficient. You either shoot REAL fast, in order to get four more rounds at that dead coyote....or quite simply, the story didn't happen as stated?
I, on the other hand, called two coyotes and a bobcat monday morning, and each fell to a 25 grain bullet, one short sprinter(15 yards), the other coyote and the bobcat, dropped in their tracks.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 16, 2006, 10:10 PM:
 
AZ-hunter, way to go on the hunt today, and i could'nt agree with you more. dam good shooting.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 17, 2006, 02:37 AM:
 
OK! let see where do I start? I'll admit it was an unvarnished account I didnt want to embellish too much, as to make it come across as sugar coated BS and give all the gory detail. There are a few that need to calm down here and have another drink for ph**k sakes! wheres my lawyer?

I was sitting out in a CRP field with a 3% or so grade with a soil erosion berm with sage brush running its length that devided me between two fields with a snow drift that ran the length of it in a arch. My position was such that I could pretty much see all around, sun at my back some what. I was facing NNE and the wind was going NEE at about 5mph or less and sometimes shifting North slightly, but enough to get the mist to go out away from me. I gave the scent about 20min to really spread out and pumped the bottles another 10 times before I started calling. I belive the scent from the mist was curling along the snow drift cause every now and then I would catch a slight wiff of it (back draft). The coyote came in from the NNW and crossed the same berm/drift I was sitting on, then hit the scent, but may have hit it sooner, as wind does some weird things here in the mountain foot hills i.e., steady one way walk a hundred yrds and its going another. As soon as she made it over the berm she followed the berm/drift right up until she saw me pull my rifle up to get the bipod out of the snow into a better position. I new she didnt make me out as I was wearing my ghilli thus affording me some movement, so she trotted out to about 50 to 60 yrds where I barked her to a stop. There is some guessing as to the mist having some influence as I described but Ill vouch it did cause of the way she was comming in.

OK for you BS hounds! If you take a look at the facts I didn't hit it five times I hit four times one went over. Chalk that one shot up for the spinning and hobby horsing around.

The first one hit it in the boiler room supply tanks, then she paused again squared off with me (paused) and I hit her in the front leg trying for a chest shot, then she paused one more time and I hit her in the head (cheek) at an angle that one put her down but wasn't square enough to penetrate. I though she was dead at that point except for a little movement which I thought was the dying quivers, which alot of them do, so I continued calling for another what felt like 10 to 15 minutes then looked back at her and noticed she moved, so I went up to her and seen the hole she was tring to breath out of and finished her off that one being the fifth shot but forth hit.

Recap: the head shot, the missed shot, and the finishing shot doesn't count as to the testament of the rifle being a good tool. Damage as compared to my .223 It is plenty.

I don't know why an animal wants to survive being mortally hit, but it happens sometimes. I'll admit that the lungs being vacumed out completely maybe a bit overstated (Oops! a little to much sugar), but in my opinion it was enough for me to qualify the .17 rem as being an ideal coyote tool.

I'll try to keep it a little more low keyed next time, since Im on a forum with expert killers that never miss, and all their animals go BANG FLOP!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 17, 2006, 06:30 AM:
 
"The first one hit it in the boiler room supply tanks, then she paused again squared off with me"
------------
Sounds like a perfect example of bullet blowing up on the surface. For a coyote bullet, think thick jacket and controlled expansion. I am all done with that subject now.

I have been looking at close up photo's of a Sako 75 laminated varmint with fluted barrel in .22-.250. Holy Mackeral it's hard to keep my credit card in my wallet after looking at that bugger! Now if I only had Leonard's money---------
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on March 17, 2006, 08:43 AM:
 
Out of 50 whitetail deer we have studied I can say that a double lung shot will result in an immobilized deer in under 16 seconds. Recurve bow, compound bow, crossbow, rifle or shotgun. 16 seconds (Most under 12). They will be brain-dead and unresponsive within one minute.

I have stuck knives in double lunged deer within 30-40 seconds of them being shot... some will flinch as the knife hits their skin. After 60 seconds, no flinching. Ever. I have witnessed approximately 300 whitetails being harvested... 50 of which I used for the research above.

Without any real indepth study on my part, I still feel comfortable in saying a coyote with lungs that have been ruptured by a centerfire rifle produces brainwaves less than 60 seconds.

Throw in a bullet moving 4,000FPS and a mere 50 yard shot and a 15 minute lifespan... well... I have to wonder if his "lungs" were full of half digested rabbits.

[ March 17, 2006, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 17, 2006, 08:53 AM:
 
I'll say it again, it went >in< past the rib cage and exploded....Theres No need for anyone to get the crystal ball out, or do a palm reading, or Rolodex of photos. Thats just the way it happened. Take or leave it.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 17, 2006, 09:13 AM:
 
Red, I think what some are saying here is that they are not disputing the facts as much as the interpretation of the facts. Yes, I was aware that only 4 bullets hit the coyote, but it is still accurate to note that five shots were used. And, I fully understand a miss, under the circumstances.

Then there is the splash wound. Most people think that an animal hit in the lungs will die sooner than fifteen minutes, so the interpretation is that perhaps the lungs weren't as damaged as you thought? A coyote hit in the lung(s) can run. A coyote that can't run, because it is hit in the cheek or hit in a front leg, but is still breathing when you approach, that's a bit unusual....if (as you say) one lung was completely spilled open?

Anyway, we don't have anything better to do so now we slice and dice your vivid account. Main thing I hope dawns on you is that those 20 grain pills at 4,?00 aren't the ticket. Too many people have done the legwork and formed consensus.

Good hunting. LB

[ March 17, 2006, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 17, 2006, 09:35 AM:
 
I hit a coyote in right shoulder blade at about fifty yards with a mini-14 in .223. This was maybe twenty years ago, but I recall that the ammo was from the folks at Black Hills shooters supply. The bullet was 50 or 52 grain, and I remember that it was marked on the box as an "SX" bullet. I believe that "sx" is short for "Super explosive". I could see a football sized entrance wound as the coyote tried to limp away. He made it something over fifty yards before expiring. Upon closer examination, I could see what appeared to be small pieces of lung and quite a lot of blood with air bubbles in it. My best guess is that I got maybe one inch of penetration before the bullet exploded and destroyed one lung of the coyote. I learned a little bit about coyotes and bullets that day. I have spent over twenty years trying to pass on what I have learned. Some folks listen, but a lot of guys just have to learn from experience.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 17, 2006, 11:10 AM:
 
I will say the .17 Rem and the 20 grainers have all the thump you would expect at 4000fps to kill a coyote clean, but this one in particular was an exception. Yes I'll agree 15 minutes is a long time to expire especially hit like that.

During the skinning I "wasn't" able to determine the effect of the first shot, since that was where I put the final round, but before that, I did take a brief but thorough look at the wound and was able to determine it was not a surface splash, but indeed full penetration into the rib cage abot 3" behind the front leg into the vitals, which didn't appear to have much left.

Ive seen pigeons shot with an incredible ammount of lead still walking around like zombies. This coyote may not have been walking around, but exibited that kind of slow death for sure.
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on March 17, 2006, 03:31 PM:
 
Thats the nice thing about a 7mag.

No spinning or running off needing another hunk of lead.

Fur friendly?...no

Quick and painless death?....yes

Not fur friendly but it is coyote friendly
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 17, 2006, 06:20 PM:
 
Jrb,

I recall a study years ago on whitetails comparing the efficacy of lung hits versus heart shots where lung hits were found to result in travel of only a fraction the distance of a deer shot thru the heart. Therefore, I wholly agree and understand the point you're trying to make.

Now, what I don't get is all these guys, present company excluded, that tout the fact that they double lung shot this or that critter and it dropped like a hammer, whereas a deer or coyote hit in only one lung won't go down because they were hit in only one lung, thus one lung is still good.

Well, in truth, lungs aren't like kidneys. You don't get one taken out and just go on going on with the one you have left. The lungs sit within the thorax in a thin, membranous film called the pleural membrane. It lines the inside of the thorax, around the heart and pericardium and inside the diaphragm and adheres to the inner surfaces of those walls, etc. because of a thin, shimmering fluid called pleural fluid and the fact that the area between the surfaces exists in a total vacuum. To illustrate the two membranes adhering together, think of trying to pull two pieces of wet cellophane wrap apart. When the thoracic wall is disrupted in some way, be it a bullet, a broadhead or trauma of another kind, that vacuum is broken, air enters the thorax and the pleural membrane pulls away from the inner walls of the ribcage, the diaphragm and the lungs. In very short order, BOTH lungs collapse and the thorax fills with pressure and blood. In some cases, the uninjured lung can stay somewhat inflated and the bad lung goes down, resulting in a pneumothorax, but with a good bullet hit, the lungs shrivel up and look like two tiny clusters of grapes. I've seen it in deer, in coyotes, and unfortunately, in people.

To make matters worse, once the ability to exchange air is compromised, and blood pressure drops either thru blood loss or loss of pump pressure, the body reacts by shunting blood from the extremities to the core organs, i.e., the brain, heart and lungs leading to even greater bloodloss and quicker death. All it takes is a little time to let nature run its course.

Now, to contradict myself, we did call one coyote in this past season that Matt hit at about 25 yards. Hit him hard with .22-250 using 45-grn BTHP's. Coyote rolled, got back up and ran like hell. When we went to where the coyote had been standing at impact, there was blood everywhere. A very impressive spray pattern. Over the hill and across the meadow, we followed a blood trail 18-inches wide and forty yards long, at the end of which was the coyote. When we rolled him over, I found that his entire sternum was gone, and in its place was a hole about 7-inches long and 4-inches wide. The coyote's heart, lungs and diaphragm were completely gone! My point: That coyote ran full out for over 40 yards with no engine. That shows just how tough those buggers can be when the adrenalin's running.

And Rich, your experience with the Mini and that round parallels a lesson I learned in much the same way. Matt cusses me now for cavitating those coyotes with my .22-250, and I tell him that I'd rather sew them up than run them down any day.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 18, 2006, 05:29 AM:
 
"That coyote ran full out for over 40 yards with no engine."
--------------
Cdog,
Coyotes sure are dumb in some ways. I have seen a few run even further than that before they realized that they were dead.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 18, 2006, 06:27 PM:
 
I dont know why animals die hard its a phenomenon that I know isnt rare Ive seen it before but it wasn't because of a bad shot, but because its the unpredictable nature of bullets and living things, or just flat out unexplainable in the first place. I know people are a bit squeamish when things dont go the way it was intended. Its something I've put into perspective long ago. I'll freely confess Ive lost a dear once and seen a friend loose a whole elk and made decent searches for them. Im not one to treat animals like people, but I do have respect for them and will make my effort so they will suffer as minimal as possible, but I do expect the unexpected due to the nature of hunting. We will have to contend with this so long as we are still using the tools we have, would you like it an easier way? Not me, then It wouldnt have the element of chance to it.

I talked to the local gunsmith here in town a respected Vietnam vet whose been at this hunting buiness since god was a child. I spoke to him about the incident with the coyote and 20 gr bullets his exaxct words "let them get out further" made sense to me, but I picked up a box of 25 grainers anyway. I think I'll go over the hill tomorrow and take another chance.

[ March 18, 2006, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2006, 08:06 PM:
 
dateline: Scottsdale

Red, that applies to a lot of cartridges, no just seventeens. That is one of the reasons why I like a heavier bullet. That SX that Rich mentioned, same thing, but a different reason.

Some people are going to use light bullets at warp speed, in spite of my objections.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 18, 2006, 08:56 PM:
 
Yes Ive tried those SX bullets at a reduced load once when I was experimenting with different loads with my .223 rolled a coyote it lay there for a few seconds and it got up and took off. I followed it for for over a mile tracks in the snow led a hole in the rocks thats the last time I did that. I ended up with 100 rounds of plinkers. I soon switched to the 55gr Combined Technology bullets now thats a well contructed bullet for a plastic tip. Basically a Nosler ballistic tip.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 18, 2006, 10:39 PM:
 
Redrabbit you sure have alot of problems with the coyote getting back up after a hit. I have used just about every bullet made for the .224, and i can't ever recall a coyote ever getting up after a hit. Some of the bullets were a little harder on the hide so i would try something else. I had a hunting buddy that had some get up after a hit, dew mostly to poor shot placement. Hits in the legs, or hind quarters ect. On non hunting days i would take him to my shooting range and we practiced and practiced. I would set targets up at unknown distances and have him practice on them. Now his kill average is way up, still gets a couple that run off a ways but they usually bleed out, or i walk up and finish with a pistol.
I have three rules, practice,practice, and don't take stupid shots. Some times you wont get the perfect shot right away,wait it out and sometimes they will give you a better shot angle. When you rush the shot then mistakes are going to happen, have to think a little.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 19, 2006, 12:45 AM:
 
TA,
I dont profess to be the greatest shot and I do get in my practice. I just tell the real world truth. I take long shots, running shots and standing head shots some shots you just dont get at the shooting range. I can sit here and feed everybody a bunch of BANG FLOP BS, or just tell it like it is and try let it go at that. I dont need you to regurgitate the few mistakes or the possible shortcomings you think I have. I come from a long lineage of hunters and have been doing this long enough. So you can cut the condescending BS! The coyote that was mentioned earlier wasnt going anywhere it was hit good enough the first round. It would have went down on its own but I made my effort to give it peace and I did. If you haven't had a wounded animal "ever" form your own real world experience my hat is off to you....

Man! If I could buy you for what your worth, and sell you for what you think your worth, the possibilities would be endless.....
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 19, 2006, 01:10 AM:
 
OOPS. the coyote was'nt going anywhere. Why did you say you tracked it for over a mile and lost it in a rock pile.More B.S. ??? I dont know for sure, but i say the only hunting you do is from youre computar!! Hmmm LOL Oh i have had a few that got away, two i believe. At the time i had no one to turn to for the answers. I did like you i tried the 20 gr. v-max and i shot two coyotes head on into the chest, both got up after hit and got away. I learned my lesson "don't use a 20 gr. bullet" Me expert shot,naw i just get out from behind my computar and hunt six days a week. You Dream Of Hunting Coyotes, me I Live The Dream.

[ March 19, 2006, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 19, 2006, 07:45 AM:
 
Yeah! one stinkin coyote lost, that was with my .223 I dont consider that "alot" OH? now you claim to have lost two coyotes I would have never guessed that from the way you came accross like your shit didn't stink or something... WAKE UP TA!...WAKE UP! its just a bad dream, welcome back to the real world.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 19, 2006, 11:42 AM:
 
TA17Rem,

WOW! only two coyotes have ever gotten away that you have shot in all the years you've been shooting coyotes.That's either very amazing shooting or you haven't shot very many coyotes.LOL
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 19, 2006, 03:39 PM:
 
last year i told a guy he was an ******* for using three shots to take down a tri-pod coyote. WITH TURKEY LOADS! looks like he would have had a real hard time explaining his actions to you guys. a grain or two of common sense and patience will get you a little further in the eyes of fellow hunters.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 19, 2006, 05:46 PM:
 
killin is killin.....

it ain't always purty.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 19, 2006, 06:40 PM:
 
Redrabbit; Thanks man thats what i needed, I woke up from my bad dream and came back to the real world. And look what was in my truck when i got back.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 19, 2006, 07:03 PM:
 
UTcaller; Yes that is a true statement. I've only lost two coyotes. I dont hunt in the sage brush of texas or the wood lots of Ind. or cedar groves ,ect. Where i live is mostly prarie, flat ground very little cover. If i get a badd hit on a coyote you can see them run out into the field and after a couple hundred yds or more they will lay down and bleed out. I have had some that some one else shot and wounded go into a drainage ditch and go up into a tile. Then we take a sewer tape with double hooks on it and snag them out, no lost coyote there. This year i used my 17 rem. shooting 30 gr. bullets and i never had a coyote run off on me. I shot 25 with it this year. How many is very many? You show me your's and i'll show you mine. By the way how many has red rabbit shot in his life time????
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 20, 2006, 05:27 AM:
 
TA,

How did I guess you were going to whip out that rolodex of old coyote photos. Dont you hear yourself constantly telling everyone how good you are, that they made poor shots. Its never you! So you have a good poulation of coyotes BFD! that dont mean nothing. Any good caller in a good population of coyotes can do the samething. BOOO! YOU STINK!

Its like I said "If I could buy you for what your worth and sell you for what you think your worth" Id never have to work again the rest of my life.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 20, 2006, 09:56 AM:
 
(dateline Sedona)

Come on boys. This kind of quarrel is unproductive. Everybody has said their piece, so after that we enter the realm of "personal attack" and that usually causes problems from that point forward. However, realize that the "controls" here are a lot more liberal than other places. And, as you can see, I'm trying to walk a neutral line.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 20, 2006, 10:06 AM:
 
Yes Leonard you are right, and i appolagize to you and this site. good hunting.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 20, 2006, 02:33 PM:
 
Me too Leonard Im sorry, Its a lousey excuse, but its just that lately I been putting up with a little irritating nausea. Im feeling a little better now that its all been hacked up....I went to the Doctor and he said Im allergic to BS

[ March 20, 2006, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 20, 2006, 07:02 PM:
 
That is the .17 syndrome. I have never once seen a thread on any board on the net where some .17 shooters didn’t go off about “shot placement.” When ever I see a thread about .17s I can tell you what will go down with out even looking. In the end the .17 shooters are SUCH good shots they don’t need anything bigger. The only reason OTHER people use bigger guns is to somehow make up for there shortcomings in the marksmanship department.

I could really care less what someone else shoots but the elitist attitudes do get on my nerves.

TA17Rem I have no doubt you are a fine shot but you are not swinging a very big stick around here. Twenty-five coyotes in 4 or 5 months of hunting is really not that good. You have to remember that there are guys here that have done that on weekend hunts. You are not going to convince someone that has shot 10 times as many coyotes as you that you know something that they don’t. And you are dang sure not going to convince anyone you are a some kind of shooting prodigy either.

quote:

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How many is very many? You show me your's and i'll show you mine.

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quote:

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you are not swinging a very big stick around here

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Twenty-five coyotes in 4 or 5 months of hunting is really not that good.

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Hell I’ll even spot you 200 coyotes

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the elitist attitudes do get on my nerves.

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You don`t say!?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 20, 2006, 10:35 PM:
 
25 coyotes is'nt very many where you live, yes that is true. In Mn. we dont have very many compared to you, and if you would check with some other hunters you will see that 25 coyotes is alot for my area. 17 cal, yes i like them alot as long as they are doing there job, and like i said i have not had a problem useing mine at home here. I also have a 22-250 ackley i only used twice this year at home, i had the gun built for calling coyote when i go to the Dakotas different area different gun. Out there if i was to get a badd hit they would be tuff to find, so i rely on the 22-250 ackley. Another thing is i dont take stupid shots at coyotes when i'm out there either, i could be wrong but what i found out is if i pass on a badd shot and let coyote go i can come back into that area a few days later and call in coyote with a different sound, make sense i dont know! If it comes to shooting matches I'm just and ordenary shooter i'm not any better than you, but no worse either. I have wounded coyotes before at home due to badd shots but in my area there is no place for coyote to go, so you sit back and let them bleed out then go pick them up. I did state that with my 17 this year i have not lost any coyotes or crippled any and i stick with that statement. Now if you go back to the beginning of this mess all i was pointing out is evrytime redrabbit shoots a coyote he shoots it with bullets that everyone told him not to use. then he comes on and tells his story how he shoots coyote and it gets away. like we are suppose to feel sorry for him. I then questoned him on it and he changes his story. So now i'm the badd guy right.. Then some one jumps out from the shadows and says i have not shot very many coyotes and it just so happens the next day we get five coyotes and then they reply i have a rollo dex full of old pic.s. I just got my computer this year and i thought i was missing out on some thing so i joined leonards site. Not missing out on anything . Just a bunch of smart people looking for some- one to flame.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 20, 2006, 11:21 PM:
 
No problem, TA. Your apology was more sincere than Red, who couldn't help himself, and got in another shot.

Good hunting. LB

edit: One thing is true enough. The Seventeen will cause controversy. Like Quinton said; every time.

[ March 20, 2006, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 20, 2006, 11:25 PM:
 
Ahhhh the irony. LOL Looks like we have another .17 shooter on board!! Sorry if I offended you Jason but…..

No worries TA17Rem. You will get along just fine here as long as you can put up with a little shit once in a while. LOL I have had it way worse than you on other boards so relax. Redrabbit got what he deserved but it is to bad that it was at the coyotes expense.

Don’t get your panties in a bunch over this and stick around. You obviously do what you do as well as any one in your area.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 20, 2006, 11:29 PM:
 
Yeah, no shit! Especially since some Internet Guru has been telling us for years that all the Minnesota coyotes died off from mange.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 21, 2006, 12:08 AM:
 
Hey TA,

If you go back and look at my post the coyote I mentioned shot with the .17 is the only coyote I ever shot with that caliber that one was as good as dead even though it was hit with a 20 gr pill. I cant explain why it didnt go down right away but I asure you it was hit as hard if not harder than Ive seen with my .223 the bullet didnt splash from my perspective it exploded inside the ribcage and in my opinion it was more than ample power. The reason I kept up the shooting was in the heat of the momment I just wanted to put it out before it figured what was going on.

The coyote that did get away was back when I was using my .223 with 50 gr SX bullets relating to Leonard & Rich's post concerning that particular cartidge and bullet. two different accts is all. and BTW I did not come accross for sympathy I was trying to give my acct of what happened as I was still excited about it.TYVM. see there you go again, nevermind your EXASPERATING!

Q,

The coyote was hit hard enough in my opinion, coyotes are tough sometimes we all know that. The thing I learned about the 20gr bullets is that they are just way too harsh.

There isnt anyone here hunting these coyotes in this area and the deer population is rebounding form winter kill and drought and when I find parts of dead fawns added to the mix I really dont have much sympathy for the coyotes. I belive these dogs are in check now, so I'll be leaving them alone for a while.

[ March 21, 2006, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 21, 2006, 08:41 AM:
 
TA17Rem,

I'm not telling you you haven't shot alot of coyotes,that wasn't my intent at all.There was a sense of sarrcasim there.LOL

I just find it hard to believe that in all the years you've been hunting coyotes that you have only lost 2 coyotes.You stated that you have hunted in S.Dakota,N. Dakota,Wyoming,Colorado,Nebraska along with the wide open Minnesota.I just think that is amazing that you hunt 6 days a week and haven't had more get away.

And also that you have used "just about every .224 bullet made and you can't recall a coyote ever getting up after a hit".I don't think there is another guy on this board that would make a statement like that.But hey, I could be wrong.

I can say I've been using a .22-250 for the last 20 years and have shot a fair number of coyotes myself and I can't make a claim like that.To many variables to count and I don't consider them stupid shots.LOL Good Hunting Chad

[ March 21, 2006, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 21, 2006, 10:15 AM:
 
"The coyote that did get away was back when I was using my .223 with 50 gr SX bullets"
---------
RedRabbit,
You lost a coyote to a 55 grain SX, so you buy a smaller caliber and shoot another one with a 20 grain bullet that is just as frangible?
Lord I apologize for saying that right up there. Please be with the starving pygmy's--Amen
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 21, 2006, 10:19 AM:
 
UTcaller,
Someone over here only lost two coyotes with a .224 after all of those years of whacking them? Gosh all mighty, I lost more than that in one day with my .25-06. I must have been having a real bad day.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 21, 2006, 12:08 PM:
 
Q,

Offended? Well I AM an elitist with a fragile ego but I`ll accept your apology anyway.

You just keep practicing Q & someday you`ll be worthy of using a .17 too.

LOL... I`ve been in construction long enough that there aint a whole lot that offends me, nor do I have a lot of tact when offending others

TA.17, What exactly does the "T" & "A" stand for?

If you`ve only lost 2 coyotes, EVER, then my hat is off to you. I`m like Rich, I`ve lost that many in one day, with a 22-250 nonetheless.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 21, 2006, 02:17 PM:
 
UTcaller; when i said i tested every bullet there was at the time, it was back in 70's and early 80's and they where tested on red fox. In the 70's we did not have coyotes here, not untill the mid 80's and then they were few to start with. I was useing a rem. 788 in 22-250 at the time. I looked in my calling log books and i had some coyotes that had to be shot twice but never lost any. Most of my shots taken on called in coyotes was 100-200 yds. there were some i missed on first shot and they were able to get into drainage or behind a hill and as far as i know they were never hit. In the 22-250 i was useing sierra 52 gr. hp. and in my 22-250 ackley i use 52 gr. A-Max bullets, I also used a 6mm HLS on coyotes with a 55 gr. balistic tip. When i first started calling coyotes a rancher friend told me if i don't have a coyote dead in my sites he said it was better to let it go and try and get it later. He stated that if i just blast away at them and miss, i was makeing them that much harder to hunt the next time. So i'm a little conservative on my shots in brushy areas. At home its wide open, not to many places to hide. Take care.
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 21, 2006, 02:51 PM:
 
Yes! Rich, I did! were talking coyote hunting arn't we? I dont belive I was trying to hide anything. 223 50gr SX (reduced load) vs .17 20gr 4000+ fps big difference! 20grainer wins in my book.

Im going to be doing more experiments. Thats the fun of this isn't it?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 21, 2006, 03:02 PM:
 
RedRabbit,
Did you take math in school? LOL, ROFLMAO!!!! Sorry to be picking on ya Red, you are just too easy. I hope you don't get mad now and refuse to help me with my bedding job on that other thread.
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on March 21, 2006, 03:16 PM:
 
The best advice I have heard on this thread so far came from Q.

I'll paraphrase

"Gotta have a tough hide to hang out on a coyote board"
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 21, 2006, 04:09 PM:
 
Thats no SHIT! dont want to be too over zealous in your fun. Everyone wants to be the expert phyicist and you got to watch out for the BS meter.I notice alot of shitting in the same nest here. RICH!
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 21, 2006, 04:51 PM:
 
TA17REM,

I'm just going off what you said in your post.

Quote>"Redrabbit you sure have alot of problems with the coyote getting back up after a hit. I have used just about every bullet made for the .224, and i can't ever recall a coyote ever getting up after a hit."

Also what is a stupid shot in your book.Because you also said that most of your shots are 100-200 yards and that 80% of your shots this year at coyotes are at running targets.Definitely not high Percentage shots. Good Hunting Chad

[ March 21, 2006, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2006, 05:14 PM:
 
Boy, this seventeen caliber stuff really smokes 'em out. Well, you guys having fun, yet? Damned cheap entertainment, ain't it?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 21, 2006, 05:34 PM:
 
The null hypothesis, H0, represents a theory that has been put forward, either because it is believed to be true or because it is to be used as a basis for argument, but has not been proved. For example, in a clinical trial of a new drug, the null hypothesis might be that the new drug is no better, on average, than the current drug. We would write
H0: there is no difference between the two drugs on average.

We give special consideration to the null hypothesis. This is due to the fact that the null hypothesis relates to the statement being tested, whereas the alternative hypothesis relates to the statement to be accepted if / when the null is rejected.

The final conclusion once the test has been carried out is always given in terms of the null hypothesis. We either "Reject H0 in favour of H1" or "Do not reject H0"; we never conclude "Reject H1", or even "Accept H1".

If we conclude "Do not reject H0", this does not necessarily mean that the null hypothesis is true, it only suggests that there is not sufficient evidence against H0 in favour of H1. Rejecting the null hypothesis then, suggests that the alternative hypothesis may be true

WTF

Dennis
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 21, 2006, 05:35 PM:
 
Leonard,

I kinda am. No dog in this fight.

FWIW, did you know that Q has not one, but two .17's in his locker? He says he won 'em, but I think he bought 'em. Could be he's been swayed to the dark side. The hypocrisy of it all.
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on March 21, 2006, 05:36 PM:
 

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 21, 2006, 05:43 PM:
 
If i'm in a area that has alot of cover, and drainages with no snow i considder a shot at a coyote over 300 yds to be stupid or wild. Have a tuff time finding them. Like i said before at home the areas are open,have time to take quite a few shots. I also stated that i have been lucky enough to hit them on second or third shot, some times more and some times less. And if i was to cripple one it has no ware to go. This year i have not crippled one so far but there is always next year. Maybe you could invite me to come to youre area for some coyotes, if i have the cash at the time i woudnt hesatate to come out. Then you could see at first hand what my capabillities are. If i dont cut the mustard then send me packing. Or find a member that lives a little closer.

[ March 21, 2006, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2006, 05:56 PM:
 
Wow, Lance! You really pulled Quinton's pants down around his ankles. I'm shocked! Hey, some friend you are! Maybe he was just doing research? Maybe he confiscated them from someone using 20 grainers@4 grand? Maybe he bought them off the rack to keep someone else from making a big mistake?

Wow! I never knew that?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 21, 2006, 06:50 PM:
 
Just stirrin'.

Kinda bored. Oh well.
 

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Posted by canine (Member # 687) on March 21, 2006, 07:06 PM:
 
What the hell was that greenside? you got me all messed up. LOL..

So how do you all feel about the 17HMR? is it good for 300 yards?

JD

Sorry Leonard, i thought the filter would catch that..LOL

[ March 21, 2006, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: canine ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 21, 2006, 07:23 PM:
 
Leonard,

Since Lance is taking shots at Q, I'll be his (Q's) wingman, this time...

"Q has not one, but two .17's in his locker"

Yeah, yeah, we all getta shoot some squirrels, p-dogs, or starlings, sometime.
You never said he used em on coyotes.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2006, 07:30 PM:
 
Well, what do you know? Thanks, I guess I missed one version of a naughty word. Fixed now. Gotta keep the wife happy.

K, sticking up for Quinton? What next? Bet he will get all weepy over that act of kindness.....but, it's bogus; just having 'em makes him suspect. He got some 'splain'n to do.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 21, 2006, 07:33 PM:
 
Yeah! greenside can you break that down into laymens terms I was kinda following it, then I lost it.LOL my negative ions started arguing with my positive ions, then I got a head ache.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2006, 07:44 PM:
 
Yeah, we request a translation.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 21, 2006, 08:25 PM:
 
Leonard,

Just this once.

Besides, I got to thinking what I'd use for an excuse, if I got caught with, not one, but a pair of super-duper BB guns, so it was handy.

RedRabbit,

No brains, no headache... maybe there's hope for you yet.

_________________________________________________

I got what Greenside said... lemme see if I can translate.

It's the "sounds good to me" system.

H0 is a wild ass guess... until you can prove or disprove it.
I guess a BB gun will kill an elephant.
Sounds good to me, if I never ever heard anything else, and/or if I believe in myself (null-meaning no other theories or proof).

One good test is worth a thousand theories.

if other people also believed in me, they'd give special consideration to my opinion (too).

If I tried to kill an elephant with my BB gun I'd find out... that's H1, no longer a guess but real information.

So, after the test, we'd either say "Krusty's right (H0 holds up)" or we'd say "Nope, Krusty's wrong {and H1 proves that}"...
OR, we could say "Krusty just got lucky (so we have no way of proving H0 or H1, and both still could be true)".

Somethin' like that Dennis?

Krusty
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 21, 2006, 08:28 PM:
 
I think what he`s saying is...if you can`t prove it to be false then it must be true. In other words, since you guys don`t use .17s(Krusty) you have no proof to say that they aren`t the perfect coyote rifle. Of course Q obviously knows the truth.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 21, 2006, 09:24 PM:
 
JD,

I never said they weren't the perfect coyote rifle, for someone, someplace.
They might be.

I don't use a whole bunch of calibers, why single me out?

Krusty
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 21, 2006, 10:23 PM:
 
It would be a mistake to think everybody that has a re$ervation about seventeen doesn't know anything about them, or has not used one enough to have formed an opinion. It is possible, that some experienced predator hunters have (indeed) used a 17 Remington, before, and see a couple flaws. Those nonbelievers out there cannot allow the opposition to control the discussion with their qualifiers and conditions and (mostly imagined) expertise.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 22, 2006, 04:52 AM:
 
Truth be known, (whisper) Q figures if he uses them together, he's got himself a .34 which means he's outgunning all of us.

Personally, I've never shot one. The ballistics look good, but words on paper don't kill coyotes. In the right hands, I suppose they could be an effective caliber on coyotes. But, when you consider how tough a coyote can be to kill - even with a larger bore - I just don't think the majority of guys are good enough to not cripple coyotes with it. Hell, there are a lot of guys that go out and buy a caliber like that because they read somewhere how great a coyote gun it is and they don't even know how to stop a coyote coming in for the shot and would just as soon take a marginal shot at a runner. I just think a lot of regulars on these forums fail to recognize the sheer numbers of uninformed neophytes that take what is posted as gospel without having the practical experience to separate what they're capable of replicating, nor are they aware of any of the unmentioned prerequisites. A guy says he called and shot a coyote with a .17. Alright, what he didn't say was that he has years experience doing this, called the coyote to 50 yards, stopped the coyote in an open shooting lane and threaded the round between two ribs where he took out the heart and lobes in both lungs because experience has taught him (the hard way) where to hit. The neophyte has no idea all that other "stuff" even factors into the shot. He just assumes that if it killed one coyote, it can kill any coyote under any circumstances. Same probably goes for just about any caliber, but the smaller you go in bullet weight, the more egregious the assumptions. And that's why I don't like them being offered up in generic terms without some sort of disclaimer in an open forum.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 22, 2006, 05:36 AM:
 
Nevermind. And my apologies. I should know better than to even look at these threads.

- DAA

[ March 22, 2006, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 22, 2006, 05:40 AM:
 
I know a few of the best coyote men that ever walked. Murry Burnham, Monte Dodson, Scott Huber, Cal Taylor and Murphy Love. There are more of course, but do they rely on a .17 to get the job done for them? I don't think so. I believe that most of the serious coyote men will agree that a serious coyote rifle begins with a .223 and gets better as you go up from there. The .22-.250 or .220 Swift are great coyote calibers, as are several of the various 6mm numbers. It is true that a good rifleman with a .17 can kill coyotes, but a man has got to know the limitations of his chosen rifle and his own limitations as well.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 22, 2006, 05:53 AM:
 
Ironic!! Nearly duplistic!! You`re right leonard...good entertainment.

Krusty, I only singled you out because of your comments about "BB guns"

Wow!, I even used one of them smiley face things in my post & it still stirred the non-believers.

btw...DAA is right(on all accounts)
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on March 22, 2006, 05:55 AM:
 
If the probability of rain tonight was 40% would that mean if the exact conditions of this evening were repeated an infinite number of times, it would rain 40% of the time?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 22, 2006, 06:26 AM:
 
One thing is for sure. Everytime one of these 17 Remington threads get started, it's the guys who don't own one, and have never given one a chance, who quickly fill up four pages with their bullshit, spouting off about something they have no experiance with.

When is the last time you saw a 17 shooter trash talking a 22-250 or 25'06?
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 22, 2006, 07:06 AM:
 
Tim, I couldnt of said that better myself!

Probability this probability, that. GO GET ONE AND FIND OUT! can you doubting Thomases read between the lines. All this dicing and slicing and you still have nothing NADA! Its pure Boondoggle Bamboozle I tell ya.

[ March 22, 2006, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 22, 2006, 07:25 AM:
 
Tim,

All you have to do is go over to the black board to see that.LOL
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 22, 2006, 07:55 AM:
 
I have watched these debates for several years now, and just don't get it. It is pretty simple and logical really. A 17 Rem or variation of, will kill a coyote. If you want to wait for a perfect shot (for that gun) and are worried about sewing a little fur then by all means shoot one. On the other hand, apparently Quinton doesn't mind a little sewing and is good at it (judging by his ability to actually sell his fur) and doesn't want to wait for a perfect broadside or facing shot. Anybody who calls alot knows that if you are calling alot of coyotes and must wait for the perfect 17 shot, you are going to spill some coyotes. Some of us aren't willing to do that, and that is probably most of us.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 08:40 AM:
 
.....so, as I understand Tim's train of thought;

people that don't own a ********* caliber rifle are responsible for all the arguments. Okay, I know how to silence them, but then we would be duplicating another board on the 'net. Maybe what I need to do is add to the list of incendiary words, and not allow any discusions of sub calibers because it stirs up all the fools that don't own one and just don't get it?

Good hunting. LB

edited for spelling

[ March 22, 2006, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 22, 2006, 08:41 AM:
 
Tim Behle,
Have you forgotten our good friend and king hell dictator? I have nothing against those who choose to shoot a .17. A man has the right to shoot the rifle of his choice.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 08:46 AM:
 
Right, Rich. That's who I was thinking of. NO arguments over there. Perfect. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 22, 2006, 09:04 AM:
 
"Anybody who calls alot knows that if you are calling alot of coyotes and must wait for the perfect 17 shot, you are going to spill some coyotes."

That's just it though Cal. Most of the people spreading that BS are folks that don't actually use a .17. I'm an average shot, and an average caller. I don't do ANYTHING differently, as far as shot selection, when using a .17 as compared to any other rifle I own. About 1/4 of al the coyotes I killed with a .17 this winter were smacked right in the shoulder. Big whoop. All this bull shit about "perfect shot placement" and "for advanced callers only" makes me sick. You don't hear any of us actual .17 users saying that. Because, it's bullshit.

I just get so sick and tired of hearing what the .17 can or can not do, or how it must be used to be effective, from people that have NEVER used one of the Gawd Damn Things that I want to scream.

My experience does NOT jibe with ANY of the bull shit I read on the internet.

Here is how I use a .17 to kill coyotes:

Turn on Foxpro. Wait for coyote to come in. Shoot coyote at first chance, at whatever angle he is presenting. None of this waiting for the "perfect angle" or "threading a bullet between ribs" shit that I keep reading about. Call 'em and shoot 'em. Just like with any other rifle.

Oh and one more thing that I just get sick and damn tired of reading on these stupid bullshit threads. All I can say, is Thank God I'm just a weekend, recreational caller, and that I don't have to bear the burden of being a "serious coyote man". Seriously, who gives a flying red sheep f*** about the "serious coyote man"? Other "serious coyote men", I'd guess. But that leaves about 99.9% of us out of it.

Ahhhhh to HELL with it. This thread has so much bullshit in it it's enough to make me want to puke.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 09:19 AM:
 
Thanks, Dave. It's good to get it off your chest.

This started about poor bullet choices, and bad hits in a marginal cartridge, not a blanket condemnation of 17 caliber rifles.

Good hunting. LB,
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 22, 2006, 09:41 AM:
 
Its a case of "Too many chiefs and not enough I_N_D_I_A_N_S...

[ March 22, 2006, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: RedRabbit ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 22, 2006, 09:44 AM:
 
DAA,

Very well said.You bring up alot of great points.

Since I started using the .204 ruger with 35 grain bullets i haven't done anything different than with my .22-250 with 55 grain bullets as far as how and when I "handle" coyotes. I call them and shoot them the same as if I were shooting my .22-250 Whether they are 50 yards or 350 yards.Whats totally amazing to me is that they die exactly the same way too.LOL

And don't feel bad about being a weekend/recreational caller.That makes two of us. The pressures of being a "serious coyote man" must be tremendious.LOL Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 10:17 AM:
 
I just reviewed every word written in this thread. I failed to find a reason for anyone to be upset over a difference of opinion, which we are all entitled to, by the way. This is not a case of Truth versus Bull$hit, where experienced users of the caliber know stuff that ignorant, uninformed people don't know.

While you may believe that those with an opposing opinion are uninformed, it's better to allow them their point of view, instead of charging them with bull$hit.

I personally do not use the cartridge, but I don't ban discusion about it, like other places. Seventeen users have their say, and those that don't like it, have their say. I know enough to have an opinion, which is different than bull$hit. I accord others the same respect. And, I do not get all pissed off while discussing seventeens. I just say what I think, which I don't consider to be bull$hit?

So, this is an adult discussion, and various opinions will be expressed, none of which have more value than others, and none should be considered " truth versus bull$hit. One side does not hold the high moral ground, either.

Is it possible to talk about these things without getting mad?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 22, 2006, 12:19 PM:
 
Leonard,

I see the point your trying to make. When I got in into this discussion form I figured there was some cammraderie, since my impression was that everyone being coyote hunters accepted that seventeens were predator rifles and for as long as can I remember they have and still are today. I see that there is alot of devided opinions here. Hell! I cant even talk shop with some that own one, or two, or three, or four without them acting like a high and mighty know it all. Its the attitude of how some come across thats "BULL$HIT"

I know it didnt help matters that I asked the question about 20gr bullet use for coyotes and then going and trying them and ending up with what I consider as an ideal coyote rifle and by that I mean alot of things besides the bullet.

I was only trying to determine what was the threshold bullet for the rifle without giving prejudice to it dispite the information provided by the forum, so the best way to do that was to find out with a first hand experiment and I am satisfied to know 20gr bullets are from the data collected form this forum weather negative, or indifferent and in the feild I found to be the threshold bullet. That didn't mean I was stuck on 20gr bullets all I mean't was I was going to try them and see for myself.

Alot of good information was exchanged from this and I appreciate it....You guys are a hardcore bunch of coyote hunters.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 12:40 PM:
 
Okay, thanks, Red. Appreciate it.

I was thinking of an analogy, imperfect though it may be?

Let us say that you decide to buy a Ford Focus for commuting back and forth to work, at posted speed limits.

Do not tell others that it seats six adults as comfortably as a Lincoln Town Car. If someone disagrees with your opinion, it isn't bull$hit. It is what is called a difference of opinion.

A Ford Focus is nothing like a Ferarri, and it can't haul loads like a Dualie, and in a collision with a full size pickup, the person most likely to suffer injuries is the driver of the Focus.

Therefore go ahead and buy it and drive it, but don't bother telling people it is something that it is not. It is obvious what it is, and what it is not. Why get mad? Use the damned thing, but don't have a meltdown because your spin isn't working on everybody.

I still think we can discuss these things and gain perspective, hopefully, without getting pissed off. Hell, I wouldn't own any Ford, much less a Focus, but people are free to make their own choice. Ya gotta tolerate other people and differences of opinion are not necessarily bad.....nor uninformed.

Good hunting. LB

[ March 22, 2006, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 22, 2006, 02:09 PM:
 
DAA,
Your advice regarding rifles, bullets and ballistics in general is highly respected. Would you mind telling us which bullet you were using in your .17 to get such excellent results on coyotes? I have searched the internet, and have been unable to find a company that makes a .17 caliber bullet that seems to have the strong construction needed in order to avoid surface blowup when striking shoulder blade of a coyote.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 22, 2006, 02:09 PM:
 
Is the 17 a good choice? Nope.
Hell, the 223 isn't even a good choice when comes time for the nutt-cuttin'.
If I was to get truly serious on coyote, I'd want something that'll drop them DRT without wandering around following blood. I'd much rather shoot, pick the coyote up and off to the next stand. Lord help us all should multiples come in and you try to remember where the first one was hit before the tracking starts. Coyotes like deer can run dead a hundred yards and many times blood trailing can be nearly impossible.
I'd rather spend 10 minutes sewing than 30 minutes tracking. From what I hear, sewing doesn't affect the price all that much if they are worth nothing in the first place.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 22, 2006, 02:28 PM:
 
I do not agree Leonard. When you consistently have people that freely admit to having never used a .17, people more or less plainly stating up front that they don't have a clue, then going on and on and on and on about all the special needs and requirements for using one -- that is bullshit. Plain, pure and simple.

I never claimed to have any "truth". On this subject or any other. I encourage folks to ignore my opinions on most subjects, especially when it comes to calling coyotes. But I'll stick my neck out and claim to have a pretty good bull shit detector, and this thread is just oozing it.

Thick skin required. I'm familiar with that. If there is any "truth" to be found in this steaming pile of bullshit thread THAT would be it. Unfortunately, while I absolutely believe it and agree with it, I'm plainly showing my ass here and proving that maybe I can't make the cut anymore.

No "truth vs. bullshit" here. Just bullshit, period.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 02:28 PM:
 
See? Uncle Jay knows how to craft a nonconfrontational opinion, while respecting the views of others.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 22, 2006, 02:31 PM:
 
Rich, a Kindler 30 gr. Gold. Not only penetrated shoulders, but broke most of them on the way in. Broke a couple of offside shoulders, even. Not as "fur friendly" as the Berger 25 gr. Match, but hits harder and penetrates better with poor angle hits.

- DAA
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 22, 2006, 02:44 PM:
 
BS? Someone call me? LOL!

BTW, One of my Nephew's has used a .17 for quite a few yrs. He also has a .220 & 22-250. He likes the Swift the most. He's killed his share, with the .17. I've never shot one. Personally, I think their a fine predator rifle, regardless.

As for shot placement, I generally aim for the mass, LOL!. As for the .223. I've put that bullit in quite afew coyote chests. Just to watch them run off.
----------------------
This [double lung] shot stuff. My most[memorable].

Shot a coydog in 81. 55gr .223 SP, quartered through his chest. Knocked him on his can. Bullit took out a handfull of lung chunks exiting. The canine ran 3/4 mile away under an abandoned farm building. He apparently didn't know he was dead.

I like my coyotes from, afar
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 22, 2006, 02:46 PM:
 
Before anyone calls me for bullshit, they should ask if I have shot a 17 Rem. I have owned one, and shot coyotes with it. I had it and my opinion of it long before I had the internet. I probably had the wrong bullets, all I ever shot was hornadys, but thats all I had. I guarantee I could not shoot a leaving coyote in the ass with it, and not require some follow up. The same for 55 grainers in my .243. I have tested it, not read about it. But I will also guarantee that I have done the same on numerous occasions with both the 70 grain Sierra HPBT match and the 68 grain Berger MEF and that coyote is dead. My info is from what I have done, not what I have read. And my opinion is still the same. With what I personally have shot, the 17 requires better shot placement and will not work the same as my .243. Now, if I were to try some different bullets and use some of the info that guys have posted, I may have a different opinion, but I haven't, and I'm not going to. I no longer have the bullet tumbling piece of shit, and I'm not going to go buy another to test.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 22, 2006, 02:47 PM:
 
I wish ***** Black would get on here and tell us how they do it "Downtown".
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 02:48 PM:
 
Dave, all I can do is acknowledge that you have the right to your opinion. I hope you are not being personal, because I have, (in fact) used a seventeen and decided it doesn't meet my needs. If it works for you, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I have said before, I don't know a single contest hunter that uses a seventeen. I think it's because they require something a little more reliable?

Seventeen caliber has a cult following and it's always going to be that way. You aren't any smarter than the rest of us. There is no sense in throwing out accusations because people don't agree with you. It's obvious that you are not going to change entrenched opinion; however your disagreement is duly noted. I just don't understand why you care so much?

And, (this is very important) I want you to know that I have, and have had, enormous respect for your opinion on any issue we have ever delt with.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 22, 2006, 02:49 PM:
 
Harharharhar! Now that there is funny Leonard.
I'll have to start calling him Randee-lita.

quote:

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You aren't any smarter than the rest of us.

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Now that sounds confrontational to me.

[ March 22, 2006, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 22, 2006, 03:12 PM:
 
For the record I have 2 .17 HMRs and have just ordered a barrel to convert my 10/22 mag over. I also have two .17 Remingtons in which both are in need of new barrels. I have shot as many or 25gr Hornady bullets down a barrel as anyone on this board. In my “limited” experience with the .17 I found it to be inadequate for my purpose. I shoot coyotes from 50 to 500 yards. It is not about whether the .17 will work for coyotes it is a mater of versatility for me.



The .17 doesn’t have enough led in its pencil to consistently anchor coyotes at all the ranges I need it to. I don’t shoot coyotes with a .17 for the same reason most people do and that is damage. A hot .22 will do more damage both inside and out than a .17 will but if you don’t hit the coyotes around the edges or on bone fur damage will not be a major problem with either one.

What tickles me is that the so-called “experienced” .17 shooters always talk about how the .17 doesn’t damage fur and they never exits. LOL BULL SHIT!! I have had them exit several times and they do no more or no less damage than a .224 caliber bullet does when it exits. The only difference is that a .224 will exit far more often. You hit a coyote in the neck, the spine or hit them thin in the gut you will have damage. You hit one on the point of the shoulder you WILL have damage if you can even recover the animal. The bottom line is that a bigger more explosive bullet will give you more flexibility than a .17 will. Across the board the .17 will do less damage than a hot .224 will and damage inside and out has a direct bearing on killing capability. It is not Voodoo it is just basic physics.

Good hunting.

Q,

P.S. I am going to Montana for a couple of days so don’t be too hard on me until I get back. LOL
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 22, 2006, 03:20 PM:
 
Quinton, Are you hauling fur? I think I live between Nebraska and Montana, so if you get in this country look me up.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 22, 2006, 04:01 PM:
 
Cal, you have mail

Q,
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 22, 2006, 04:06 PM:
 
Q,

Good luck on selling your fur. Top money, huh?

And those are some fine looking .17's. I think everyone oughtta own one or five.

[ March 22, 2006, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 22, 2006, 04:09 PM:
 
What a thread, Ive been reading for twenty minutes, and both laughed and ground my teeth a few times. Im a confirmed small caliber fanatic when it comes to predator hunting, using not only my two .17s, but .19 Calhoon and 22 Hornet.
I used the 223,22-250 ackley,220 swift for many years before getting the 17 bug. After using a .17 for so long now, I swear to god, a 220 swift would feel like a cannon.
I don't advocate the .17 as the "best" coyote cartridge, nor would I suggest the .243 is, either. Whatever your hunting style or intent is in killing coyotes, will dictate what the best caliber is for you.
As to shot placement, I don't worry about "threading" anything, or waiting for that perfect sight picture. I pull the trigger when the coyote presents the best shot he's going to. I will make a concious effort to stay off the shoulder, I learned to do that when shooting the 22 centerfires though. That certainly is not picking the perfect shot, there's a whole lot of coyote around that one small area for me to shoot at.
Like Cal mentioned concerning the straight away coyote. I never hesitate to poke one at the root of the tail with my .17, it does require a follow up, but what caliber below a 25-06 wouldn't?
There are subtle differences in using the .17, thats inarguable, so it does indeed take some time using one "enough" to realize the difference. I would never suggest that the 6mm is a piss poor choice for shooting coyotes,Ive only seen a few coyotes killed with one, and personally, I just don't have enough time behind one to have an "informed" opinion. Ive shot exactly one coyote with the 6mm, and a few bullseyes on paper, but that aint enough of either to wade into a conversation with someone who does have "enough" experience, regardless of how much I wave my arms madly in the air, raise my voice, and give my "opinion". A 6mm shooter would listen to me for about two minutes before rightfully proclaiming, "Vic, you don't know what the hell your talking about".....Thats kind of how we confirmed .17 shooters feel, and very understandable, at least I think?
You know, Ive thought about something while reading this entire thread. I think the main difference in our conflicting opinions, comes down to why we hunt coyotes, not what caliber we use.
Some of you guys come from the position of "having" to shoot(kill) the coyote, rather than "wanting" to shoot(kill) the coyote? I don't have a quota to fill, or a stock killer to make sure I snuff, or a bed full of coyotes to run to check in. I think if that was my concern, sure, I'd have a little more gun than my .17, but Im not.
Thankfully, Im a plain vanilla recreational caller, happy to slip out two or three days a week in the winter, fumble around with my fox pro, call a few coyotes, and shoot a rifle and caliber that kills coyotes just as dead as my 22-250 did, but without everything else, that goes along with it.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 04:31 PM:
 
Good post, Vic.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 22, 2006, 04:52 PM:
 
DAA,
Kindler 30 grain "Gold". I have written that one down for future reference. I will likely not ever own a .17 myself, but I see a lot of post's on the various predator boards from guys who sure can use that info. Thank you.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 04:55 PM:
 
Yeah, that's illuminating, right there. I think a lot of people here have been trying to voice opinion regarding bullet weight, (20 vs 25, 30 grain) rather than trashing the seventeen out of hand.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 22, 2006, 05:30 PM:
 
I think your somewhat right Leonard, but like Vic mentioned it`s also about why & how you hunt. I`m glad you let these threads run their course, alot can be learned in the end, even if there is a tiny bit of B.S. here & there.

[ March 22, 2006, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 22, 2006, 06:22 PM:
 
DAA; I have been useing the thirty gr. gold also, and the 28 gr. calhoon. Have had good results with both. The 30 gr. gold is a little more accurate farther out.There is a coyote hunter that goes by the name of silverfox in N.D. and he use's nothing but the hornady 25 gr. bullets, and as far as i know he dosent have any problems with the 17 cal. We few.
 

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Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on March 22, 2006, 06:30 PM:
 
Well

Here is my view

As long as you ain't toting a 22lr or 410 gauge I would walk into a stand with anyone of ya.

I'm sure a 17 will kill a dog

I'm sure a 416 Rigby will kill a dog

I'm somewhere in the middle
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 22, 2006, 07:22 PM:
 
A few things...

- I owe Leonard, and a lot of you an apology for my style of delivery on this thread. It was uncalled for. Lance, I want to single you out for apology too.

- I honest to God don't care what anyone else uses for coyotes, or what they think of my choices. Hard to believe, given my earlier rant, I'm sure.

- What set me off, are the guys chiming in with ZERO experience, running off point-by-point the same sorry, tired, inaccurate stuff I've read a thousand times. Somebody doesn't like the .17, fine by me, really. And especially anyone who has actually tried one. But I am tired of the guys who honestly have not a clue chiming in about it. Why I went off this time, when I was able to ignore it the 999 times previously, I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because this whole thread started out on a just plain stupid note.

- Regardless of above, it is NOT personal. I don't feel like anyone was coming after me personally, and I did not mean to go after anyone else personally. BUT, and this is an important "but", I have absolutely nothing against Lance. No personal offense taken on my part at all. He just happened to be #1000, or whatever. It wasn't "him" that set me off, it was reading that stuff for the one thousandth time. By the time I started ranting, I wasn't thinking about Lance at all. I just hope he's not too pissed at me right now.

- I'll probably fail, but I hope to just stay the Hell out of all internet discussions pertaining to hunting coyotes with a .17 from now on. I hope I don't fall off the wagon again.

- Final input from me on this subject, hopefully for a long, long, long time... I do NOT believe the .17 is the "best" caliber for coyotes. I do NOT believe it is magic. I'm not even religous about using one myself, I like variety, actually. I do NOT believe everyone, or even "anyone" else should use one. It truly just does not matter. I DO like mine, and it DOES work well, for ME. The biggest reason I use one, is for the fun factor. That's what I hunt coyotes for -- fun. It's just plain more fun to watch my bullets hit through the scope. I like the complete lack of recoil and the easy to handle pin-point accuracy. I like getting all that and also having flatter trajectory and less wind drift than a .22-250 or even most .220 Swift loads. Fur damage is just a happy bonus for me. And actually, as has already been pointed out, with the bullets I'm using, damage is prety close to that of a .224 anyway. Most of the problems I read about, I just can't relate with, it's not how things have gone for me. The same could be said about many aspects of rifles and hunting though, thats just how things go.

- DAA
 

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Posted by albert (Member # 98) on March 22, 2006, 08:50 PM:
 
I can’t believe this thread, it is unbelievable how one idiot has all of a sudden made a whole bunch of knowledgeable guy’s feel at they have defend there choices. Worse yet give good reason for there decisions. Where in the hell did this “black board mentality” come from? If it works for you! I know that I don’t agree with every thing that is being said. But I also feel that every one has the right to make the same mistakes that I have. The worst part of this is that guy's that have respect each other for feel that they have to defend there opinion to people they respect. HORSESHIT

Previously this board has always managed to shown respect for experience and personality’s. What’s going on? A great board like this one takes more than the operator to make it so. I ask what the hell is the problem

I’mthebiggestidoitsky

[ March 22, 2006, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: albert ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 22, 2006, 09:02 PM:
 

quote:

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Where in the hell did this “black board mentality” come from?

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Ya know, that's a dang good question!

Krusty
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 22, 2006, 09:54 PM:
 
AZ-Hunter and DAA good post.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 22, 2006, 10:41 PM:
 
Albert, Huh??? What exactly is wrong with the way this thread went? As far as I can see it went all over the place & finally came to rest in a good way.
Just like many other threads do.

Maybe I brought the "Black Board" mentality with me when I wandered in.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 22, 2006, 11:15 PM:
 
Well, WTF? Your call. You're to blame, JD.

.......that should make RedRabbit happy?

(just kidding)
No blame, no excuses, and nobody changed their mind........just like last time, as I recall?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 23, 2006, 12:09 AM:
 
Leonard, make no assumptions. I know thats alot to ask considering and I quote myself "Oh well, Im pleased to know the .17 is an ideal coyote tool" I wasn't trying to put a spin on it, it was just my excited utterance.

At the time when I said it I meant alot of things that were common knowledge i.e., flat trajectory, accurate, very little recoil if any. Just some of the things that sold me on it in the first place, that I didn't care to mention, cause I knew was old hat to you all that have more experience with it.

To actually see my hit happen before my eyes was quite impressive. I hope you guys can understand my excitement I never wittnessed so much blood in my scope veiw in one shot on coyote and form such a little pill.

I went out today and put about a box through it and it still amazes me how it performs. It meets my requirements. The 22-250 is on my list, but Id hate to put aside the .17 cause I know Id enjoy the 22-250 for all its attributes.

Its good to see everyone stepping up to the plate on this subject were really getting into the meat and potatoes now...Thanks guys!
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 23, 2006, 12:45 AM:
 
Ooops! and Im sorry if I offended you TA17Rem I been known to be half ignorant. Your credibility as a seventeen coyote hunter is noteworthy. A picture is worth a thousand words. Is that your Ford in the background, cool "why drive the rest when you can afford the best"

I keep looking over my shoulder to see if your standing there swinging a big stick. LOL
 

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