This is topic The Adaptive Coyote... in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2006, 12:08 PM:
Are coyotes more intellegent today than say 30 or 40 years ago?
Are they harder to bring in close than they used to be?
The reason I ask these questions is that I've been watching some DVD's lately and they say how extremely important Camo is to be successful as a coyote caller.
Then I got to thinking that there really wasn't much in the way of camo prior to the late 70's early 80's,and even if there was some out there, most people didn't use it much at least around here.So why were so many coyotes,fox and bobcats killed back then if camo is so important.
I know the general answer will be well it can't hurt to wear camo.I for one don't use camo much if ever and think it is overrated.I also see guys like Q and Danny B. that have shot a hell of a lot more coyotes than most guys can claim and they don't wear camo either.So I guess it just makes me wonder what all the fuss is about.
I'd like to hear from some of the old timers that have had it both ways,(no camo vs camo).I really haven't seen the difference from when i've used camo and not used it.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 19, 2006, 01:37 PM:
Chad, against my will I have become one of the "old timers".
The coyotes have absolutely changed in their responses to distress calls. In the 70s and early 80s a dry stand was usually the exception and multiples were frequent. Different today.
However to answer your question regarding your examples, the answer will be different for different
areas.
You, Danny and Q and others who call in relatively open areas and commonly see and shoot the animal at relatively long ranges will not have the same camo requirements that callers east and west, who commonly call in heavy cover, will. I guarantee that anyone wearing proper camo, that gives the coyotes ability to detect them the same respect that they give to the turkey, who calls while scanning thick cover at close range and expects to first detect a coyotes face staring back at them from the brush will definitly see more of those faces if they are very well concealed.
That type of camo just isn't neccessary for a caller that detects them several hundred yards away and remains very still while following their approach through a scope.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2006, 02:47 PM:
Rich,
I respect both your experience and understanding of coyote behavior more than most any callers I know.Both Professional and personal.And I totally agree that the coyotes have adapted over the years to become more educated to distress sounds and howling that makes total sense to me.
I guess I just don't see it with the camo issue.I wear a carhart jacket(usually the moss color,somewhat faded out now)and the brown duck pants(also faded quite a bit).My gun is not camo but is matte finished along with my scope,with a black synthetic stock.No face masks,or gloves except when it is real cold.
Where it is true I call in pretty open country,there are a few of the shots I take at coyotes have been under 50 yards,and I would say most if not all the times I spook a coyote at that close range is because I move to quickly for a shot,or to get in position for a shot.I've had quite a few experiences where a coyote will stare in my direction from 30 yards away looking for the source of the sounds and still can't pick me out(because I didn't move).
I guess the main reason I think camo is so overrated is that where I call there are alot of different variables(terrain)where I call,sage brush,cedar trees,tan grass,alphalfa fields,river bottoms,some areas are dark and some are quite light.Thats alot of different camo patterns to tote around from stand to stand.LOL
I do use a white camo when most of the area I call in snow covered.Good Hunting Chad
[ February 19, 2006, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 19, 2006, 03:42 PM:
UTcaller; Instead of thinking of camo as a 'thing' try thinking of it as a 'concept'.
Sitting still in the shade against a good backing with the sun behind you is as much a part of camo as the latest designer pattern. If your Carharts are blending in, they're part of the entire camo package.
To a degree, we've been seduced by the advertizers who have convinced us that unless we have the latest pattern, gizmo or geegaw we may not succeed.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 19, 2006, 04:35 PM:
Kokopelli,
Some days, you sure do a hellofa job of putting my thoughts into words.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2006, 05:13 PM:
Kokopelli,
You are totally correct.I think that's my point about camo.If you wear clothing that will blend into alot of different terrains (tans,greens,browns,or darker greys)when you're sitting in the shade that's all you need.Movement is the key to getting/not getting busted by a coyote.I don't think it is a pattern of camo that will save you from getting busted.
I think like you said alot of people are seduced by the latest pattern of camo,then go out call some coyotes with it on. Then come back with the idea that the reason why coyotes come in close is because they have there new camo on.LOL
I didn't start this thread for the purpose of bashing "Camo diehards",just to see why alot of people feel it is so important(critical as some DVD'S have advocated).FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 19, 2006, 06:25 PM:
Tim & UTcaller; Thanx for the kind words. I do wear camo, I just don't get carried away with it. Movement is what seems to get me busted most of the time.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 19, 2006, 06:41 PM:
Today I had on mossy oak camo, we had a little snow and I chose to sit with a fence to my right, a dead cedar behind me and tan grass all around me. The only grey was the small fence post and the timber on the other side of the fence. About 5 minutes into the stand I spotted a coyote coming through the timber, he stopped less than 10 feet from me and searched for the dying rabbit. He never saw me until I slipped up and made eye contact with him, then he just backed away still unsure of what I was. This was the closest of the pair and neither one really busted me, even though from where they were, I was a big gray figure in a tan and white background. Camo is made to be sold but I'll still wear it, from a distance most of it turns into a muted color anyway.
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 19, 2006, 07:11 PM:
I agree with,Rich Higgins..Camo helps break my outline in the eastern woods.Coyotes know when there is a new rock in the woods.[Damn!that wasn't there yesterday!! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
]Rolled right up against the tree!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
..Oh!Crap!! there is another in the bushes!! Where the****did they come from? When you are up close and personal with a coyote,you take all the advantages you can get.I'm talking eastern woods,where everything is broken up with vegetation.Blending in isn't fool proof,but it helps. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Solid colors against a broken up background sticks out like a sore thumb. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 19, 2006, 07:22 PM:
Chad, for me and Tyler movement is not the problem, responding predators expect to see movement. It is when that movement draws their attention to the human form that the stand is busted. In our video there is a segment called "Hide in Plain Sight". Tyler and I set up on a freshly plowed hillside, not so much as a blade of grass, and we call in six coyotes and keep them there for 22 minutes, coaxing a 12 week old pup within 10-15 feet. I assure you it would not have happened in Carharts. Kokopelli is right as usual, camo is a concept.
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on February 19, 2006, 08:08 PM:
So lack of eye contact is more important than the camo. Cool. Been wondering why I can sit there in full camo, not move a single muscle and have a Coyote come in, look at me, and explode. Need to get some camo shades I guess. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2006, 08:13 PM:
Melvin,
You bring up a good point.From what i've seen with 99% of the camo it is designed to "blend in" to your surroundings.Which I think is kind of a joke to begin with because once you get back 50 yards it just looks like a blob of color anyway.LOL But that's beside the point.The other roughly 1% is designed to "breakup" your outline,and I think it has some merit.A perfect example of the camo I speak of is the Predator line of camo.Now I have seen this stuff work.The farther away you get it kind of just disappears.Because of the whites,and grays,with the black branches.I have a shirt with this pattern and have worn it a time or two.But again I really haven't seen a big benifit when using it.
Rich,
Before you "assure" me that carharts would not have worked for the situation that you spoke.Try using the carharts as an experiment next time so you can tell me that you tried it and it didn't work.I'm not saying it will for sure but at least try it before you say it won't work.LOL Good Hunting Chad
[ February 19, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on February 19, 2006, 08:38 PM:
Carhart tan is my favorite camo, snow or no snow. I've seen black Carharts used in open country and in snow, and we still called in coyotes.
A coyote can be called in to gun range (100-200 yards) here in open country wearing about anything as long as the caller sets up appropriately and knows what he's doing.
If the object is to get coyotes as close as posible and keep them there as long as posible, I would probably try to blend in a little better.
This is based on everything I've experienced. The only exceptions would be the hang ups, and what I would assume to be the "called in and missed" and the Johnny Knoxville coyotes that come in head first at full bore without a second thought.
Brad
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 19, 2006, 09:26 PM:
Chad, I don't have to try the Carharts. I have tried over the years a large number of combinations of different camos and it is my opinion that none, regardless of color or pattern, icluding solids such as the Carhart, regardless of brand name, that do not disguise the human form would have been effective under those conditions. Sorry the assurance offended you, I apologize. Won't happen again.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2006, 09:39 PM:
Rich,
You didn't offend me at all bud.Just pulling your chain alittle.I know what you are using as camo and I can see how it works for your purpose of calling them close and keeping them there for as long as possible.I guess I am speaking for us guys that just call them and shoot them as soon as we are presented a good shot.Chad
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 19, 2006, 09:46 PM:
Chad, in our video there is a segment called "A Calling Tutorial" "an ode to Bill Martz" in the Camoflauge clip Tyler calls a coyote into about 30 yards and the coyote then sits down and watches Tyler continue to call. Tyler was wearing a red smoking jacket and a big white easter bunnie head complete with long white ears. No human form. Camo is a concept.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2006, 11:09 PM:
Boy, I'm proud of these last few exchanges; you guys have class. Bravo!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 20, 2006, 05:42 AM:
Many factors to consider, for sure. I believe some of the [locals] have mapped out, all if not most of the [structure] in their territory. When they see something, whether abstract or partially blended. Is the [alarming factor].
I also agree, there is also a [geographical factor] in play here. Not to mention hunting pressure.
A few more thoughts on the matter; Some coyotes have different intelligence/experience levels[old vs. young, eh] ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
The older they get, their organ function deminish's. The [eyes & hearing specifically]...Same as a domestic dog.
I've had coyotes pick me out, while still & slowly moving. While wearing [all White] on a snowfly backdrop, from far away.
A coyote shot @ around here. Will act completely different than one that hasn't been. Age isn't a factor on this. They remember, some better than others.
The difference between a Coyote & a Red Fox's vision [over distance]. The Red, doesn't have a chance.
I've stalked in & been 15' from a Red, while out in the wide open. Never could pull that off on any Coyote. Closest I've got to a Coyote out in the open was 50'. That's only because he was looking the other way & the wind was rippin
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 20, 2006, 07:37 AM:
Rich,
I agree that the human form has alot to do with spooking most animals not just coyotes.I have hunted geese before with the aid of a horse.We would lead the horse out into the field where the geese are resting then run the horse off and the fun begins.LOL So I agree that most animals(especially wild ones) have a natural fear of man it makes sense that to take away that human form would help.But please don't tell anyone else about the rabbit costume concept.That's all we need is to see a bunch of giant rabbits out in the desert trying to call in coyotes.LOL
Just messin with ya Rich.
I guess what I was getting at was that some guys try to have you think that a coyotes abilities to detect you are alot greater than they actually are.And No I'm not saying coyotes are dumb either.
Camo is just one of the things I am speaking of.Most of you know that I have ALWAYS believed in calling with the wind.I have heard everything under the sun about how stupid this type of calling is,"you have got to call with the wind in your face or a cross wind to have any success as a caller"."coyotes can catch your scent from 2 miles away if they get downwind".LOL But I have had a hell of a lot of success from following Ed Sceery's advice many many moons ago."That's where the coyote wants to go"(downwind).FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ February 20, 2006, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 20, 2006, 07:53 AM:
quote:
In our video there is a segment called "Hide in Plain Sight". Tyler and I set up on a freshly plowed hillside, not so much as a blade of grass, and we call in six coyotes and keep them there for 22 minutes,
Very few mid-westeners have a good conception on how(or why) that works. That's one of the secrets for calling coyotes in the Mid-West. Mis-matched camo is a must.
Dennis
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on February 22, 2006, 06:45 PM:
I only wear camo when I'm not with Higgins.LOLOL
In AZ if you wear a sombrero, coyotes will think you're just another illegal alien and don't give you another thought.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 22, 2006, 07:38 PM:
I'll add two points to this dicussion and leave it at that, at least until I think of somehting else to say.
First, people (myself included) often point to Quinton as not wearing camo. You're right - he doesn't. He wears an old beat up green Carhart type coat, faded, bloodied, stained and worn out brown duck type pants and a tannish-greyish oil cloth-like ballcap. His choice in camo is what we might call "Monet", after the artist. From a distance, it blends as well as any effective pattern and looks great. Up close, it's a friggin' train wreck. The point is this - Q may not choose to wear camoufalge clothes in the literal sense of the name. But, the wear patterns and appearance of his clothes do very effectively serve the purpose of camo. (No offense intended Quinton. It works well for you.) Also, I know for a fact that he owns and uses NatGear snow coveralls when it snows in the panhandle.
Second, it's been my personal experience that coyotes - and bobcats, for that matter - do NOT like eye contact. To canines, including dogs, direct eye contact is a sign of aggression. Watch two dogs fixin' to go at a dust up. They'll do the shoulder check thing and look indirectly at one another. All it takes is for one to turn his head a single degree and as soon as those eyes meet, it's game on. I used to train several hundred muzzled racing greyhounds. You learned to identify a pending dog fight before it got rolling or you were in some serious deep snow and fast. Ever tried to break up a sixty dog fight by yourself?
Also, I always encourage my partners to wear a boonie or a ballcap and to wear it low over the eyes to prevent eye contact. I've had coyotes at nearly arm's reach looking right thru me, then we make eye contact. At up close and personal distance, you see their pupils dilate and they get the classic "oh shit" look on their faces.
Interestingly, I've noted that coyotes will bust out at the first inadvertant move when using distress sounds, but they almost seem to find comfort in some movement when responding to howls. Almost like they expect to see something the size of a coyote, and when they do, it piques their curiosity to almost like a bobcat. I've howled them in to show guys it can be done and, in one case, had a big male thirty yards in front of me on open ground and I held him there for 12 minutes while I occasionally gave him the Princess Di wave time and again. All he did was take a short step forward and cock his head to get a better look. I've never had one do that coming into a prey distress sound. Anyone else notice this or am I crazy?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 22, 2006, 08:25 PM:
Cdog911, I first noticed the eye contact thing while bow hunting deer, they don't know what you are if you're still but make eye contact and they bug out fast. As far as I can tell once you make eye contact with any animal it knows something ain't right. Kind of like looking at that "Monet" picture trying to figure out what it is then suddenly seeing 2 eyes looking back at you I guess.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2006, 10:34 AM:
Cdog911,
Funny you should mention pulling the bill of your cap down low to shade your eyes. I have been doing that for a long time and just failed to mention it to anyone before. Good tip!
Rich Higgins,
What do you think of this new "Leafy wear" type of camo? I mean the ones with the floppy leaf like look. I haven't tried the stuff in the field, but the idea makes sense to me. Maybe second only to a guilly suit. I have a guilly suit, but have never worn it while hunting. Big and bulky thing ya know.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2006, 12:47 PM:
On eye contact. I think there is something to it, under certain conditions.
A condition where I don't believe it has any merit is watching a coyote approach from quite a ways out. Whether he is coming straight on a string or is circling down wind, I don't think he feels your eyes burning a hole in him? In short, I don't think it matters at all?
But, this is where some people process information and form conclusions that cannot be supported. I will offer a few examples.
Bangladesh- Because of monsoons and flooding and natives drowning and being washed downstream, tigers have developed a taste for human flesh, eat the corpses in season and hunt live humans when the supply is depleated. So, the experimental solution is for the woodcutters, etc that walk the jungle trails to wear a mask on the back of their head with large painted eyes. The theory is that the tiger thinks he cannot approach from "behind" as they always to to avoid detection. So, this is a situational awareness deal, and the tiger is avoiding eye contact. If you can believe the researchers.....
Second. I put out hummingbird feeders around my house. When I get too close for a bird standing guard, as they frequently do, they come up behind my head and buzz their wings in a threat warning. Never has it happened that they come up and face me and do this and when I turn around, they split.
Third. Birds again. I also feed seed to the birds and have a few resident mourning doves that come into the yard every day. When I am pruning and/or gardening, they will come down and perch in the Lemon tree or on the block wall, or get on the ground and walk around. The second that I turn my head, and they have reason to believe they have been seen, they fly off. This happens all day long.
Therefore, as I believe that a coyote is no different in his reactions than any other wild animal, he only reacts to eye contact when he sees you look directly at him while he is looking at you.
This is no different that catching the eye of another driver at a four way stop sign. They say that it works the same in a honky tonk on a Saturday night? Two life forms looking at eachother is what we are talking about. You are not going to put the "Whammy" on a coyote by watching his approach unless he is close enough to see the "whites of your eyes" as they used to say.
That's my half baked opinion. Opposing points of view are welcome and encouraged.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 23, 2006, 02:15 PM:
Leonard,
Along the same line but utilizing a different strategy to meet their needs, I recall a method we used in my college/ raptor research days. We were studying great horned owls and attempting to develop an age determination model utilizing various measurements from hatchling- and nestling-aged juvenile owls. We had two groups of owlets - those that had been brought to our rehabilitation center and were at that time part of the foster parenting program, and wild birds that still resided in their familial nest. This helped us to assess and ascertain differences in growth rates between captive birds versus those on a wild diet, although we went over and beyond to approximate the nutritional content of a wild diet for our foster parented birds. The purpose of the study was to identify a means by which young great horns could be accurately aged so we could determine their approximate place in the behavioral development learning curve and where they were, agewise, relative to the critical period of social imprintation.
Anyway, one of the big hurdles we had to clear was being able to safely approach an owl's nest to measure the young. Owls are very aggressive in defending their nests and will attack you
without warning. That silent flight leads to some serious surprises because one second, you're on a ladder, and the next second, you have three pounds of whoop ass coming for your eyes. To manage this, and at the direction of another owl research facility in Nebraska, we created a safety suit consisting of welding leathers over our shoulder and down our arms, welding gloves for our hands, and a full face motorcycle helmet with a face shield on the front and large oversized eyes painted on the back. We would ladder the tree where the nest was found and tie it off from two different directions or more to keep it from falling. Whoever was going up would wear a safety harness and would re-tie himself to the ladder each time he took a step. A minimum of two spotters would postion themselves a short distance back from the tree and watch out for mama. If and when she came in, it was usually fast and determined. The spotters would call out to warn the guy taking measurements and banding the babies, and he would grab hold of the ladder and hug it tight with his head against the tree or as close as possible. It was really something to see those owls slam into those mock eyes, but they went for them almost every time. I learned then and there that eyes and eye contact do mean a great deal in the natural world and always kept contact to a minimum after that. Who knows if it matters, but I have raised my head and made contact with 'cats before and immediately had them arch their back, hiss, and back away from me. At distances, I agree, it's irrelevant.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 23, 2006, 02:36 PM:
The tiny northern pygmy owl has "fake" eyes on the back of it's head, in the feather pattern.
Even in nature, it's a plan that has some sort of merit?
Krusty 
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on February 23, 2006, 05:21 PM:
Would there be reason for concern, if that coyote on top of the page, was one hundred yards away from me and was staring directly into my 50mm and 20mm eyes? Think he'd bolt?
Dennis
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2006, 05:26 PM:
Based on a few scenarios such as that, in my experience, I have to say no. LB
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 24, 2006, 06:47 AM:
How about sun glasses, do they help or hurt when calling? In the past I've never worn them because I thought they would somehow keep me from seeing a coyote. This past weekend, with some snow on the ground, I wore a new pair of lightly tinted polorized clip on glasses from my optomitrist where I bought my new glasses. They have surprising clarity and the polorization and light tint on the snow made it very easy to see when I normally would have been squinting some because of the brightness.
Maybe it's just me but it almost seems like the polorization makes everything sharper?
Anyway, if it's bright tomorrow I'll probably wear them again. Like I said, they aren't dark tinted, more of a medium or light medium tint.
They might also keep me from "making eye contact" with the coyote?
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on February 24, 2006, 10:11 AM:
If you are calling Coyotes from a long distance and you are down behind the scope in shooting position. Is that not camo concept no matter what you are wearing. Flat out prone are humped up behind a set of sticks pretty well takes away the human outline. Camo is about taking away the human form from the Coyote.
I believe motion to be our worst enemy. After years of running bird dogs. I have seen them have hell finding me when there checking in as long as I am standing still. Take one step and they have you, and continue on hunting.
Now I admit I am part of the CCOC ( camo church of concealment). The main reason is the tight country I hunt. At times they are looking at me from cover less than 50 yards away. I am not down behind the rifle so I had better be "disappeared" as my buddies Billy Jake says. Because we have skeeters 365 days a year I wear the bug suit in the leaf cut pattern. The main reason I like it, is the huge hood. It blends the head and shoulders into one big blob. It also doesn't hurt that if the leaves on the bushes beside you are blowing in the wind. The leaves on you are blowing also. The hood on the Bug suit comes almost to the waste. This allows me to have my hand movement covered while calling.
It all boils down to what works for you. Even more important, what you think works for you.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2006, 10:43 AM:
I'll drink to that, Ronnie. Nothing worse for my motion control than skeeters, next is horseflies that like my ears. Netting is a solution that works on two different levels, breaking up the form, and keeping you from motion; swatting at insects.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2006, 11:40 AM:
Ronnie,
That head-on-shoulders form is what ghillie suits seek to eliminate, as is the case with your cammies. And is also what I think a lot of critters key onto. Up close, the eyes are very evident.
scruffy -
I've often wondered the same thing as to whether my transition lenses may not appear as big eyes thus defeating my camo to some point. I'm like Ronnie in that a lot of my areas are very up close and personal distances for coyotes to be looking for me. Every little bit helps.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 24, 2006, 11:41 AM:
Female low 30's "adapted" one of Charlene's 95gr Winchester BT[hogs], @ 600yrds. She came out of a creek walking. She shoulda ran.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 24, 2006, 11:51 AM:
Was that today?
Gotta love it when big [243 wssm] hogs fly!
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 24, 2006, 12:48 PM:
Yup, Scruff,
This am around 1100hrs. SowEaster wind rippin 20-25. Spotted for 4-hrs = nada. Went to visit Larry, old bud of Dad's & I.
Took him out for awhile spottin. Twenty minutes later, I pointed to a brushy creek draw. Told him, "I've seen a few coyotes, pop up out of there. Then out pop's one . Coyote was eyeing us, but remained walking.
Told Larry, "That coyote is dead" He gave me one of these .
Slapped on the snow-pod, went prone in the edge of the field. She's walking up a wide valley. Put Charlene's crosshair on the tip of her nose.
1rd hit her mid-chest, right behind her front Right leg. No entry mark, exit was a 2" hole. She got back on her feet & ran. Fifth rd, hit her solid, but didn't exit. Game over.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 24, 2006, 01:05 PM:
quote:
scruffy -
I've often wondered the same thing as to whether my transition lenses may not appear as big eyes thus defeating my camo to some point. I'm like Ronnie in that a lot of my areas are very up close and personal distances for coyotes to be looking for me. Every little bit helps.
Lance, I hadn't thought about the "bug eye" thing. My first impression is they would. But last Saturday, 10 degrees, sitting on a hillside of picked corn a couple rows in from the fense, mossy oak boots, white pants showing (bottoms of my white coveralls), dark brown carhart coat, realtree hardwood hd fleece vest, advantage timber fleece gloves and hood, and my sun glasses, sitting in around 1" of snow, I howled and rabbit distressed in 17 turkeys from a couple hundred yards off... One hen came in to only 4 rows away (6'?) and walked back and forth looking right at me. A jake was a couple of rows behind her. The 15 other turkeys were 20 to 40 yards away. The hen and jake stayed there for over 5 minutes, clucking, walking back and forth, checking me out, I kept right on blowing the bunny blues on the 2dogs "goatmuncher" call.
I know they had to have seen my sun glasses since I was looking right at them, there was alittle movement of my working the call right below the glasses guiding their attention to that spot, we made eye contact almost the entire time of the close encounter.
Maybe the turkeys thought they were giant bug eyes and I was a giant bug and wanted to eat me? I doubt it, but they didn't see it as threatening, and they are a prey animal. So I think it's worth testing on the coyotes. They may see the "bug eyes" but not be threatened and therefore not spook like they would with actual close in eye contact.
2dogs, That'll be a memory Larry won't soon forget! How did her pelt look?
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on February 26, 2006, 09:49 PM:
I think Ill go along with the nature thing myself. One time I went to a private park with a friend of mine and his kids wanted to play on the play ground the park keepers had some peacocks with big plumes or whatever you call them big eye feathers. The kids ran for the slide and there stood two peacocks waving their big eye feathers and screaming really loud the kids hit the skids and turned and ran. Not the typical reaction from these kids as they were the type to punt a chicken across a barn, but I belive the peacocks have the adaptation to ward off threats long enough to escape.
I also remember a film on discovery channel moths that have the profile appearance of a owl when there wings are closed very impressive especially the eye, to ward off predators.
I personally favor the Natural Gear stuff, but found that no matter where you are you can still can stand out as long as the light is on you. When the sun comming up, if Im out in the open I prefer to be in the shadows of a hill side. When I cant do that I grab some thick cover to aid the camo itself.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 05:45 AM:
2Dogs, I can't imagine how much of these "stories" we are expected to swallow. There are so many inconsistancies it is comical to read your posts. First off, how did you determine that this coyote wieghed 30 plus pounds? Is it an educated guess or do you carry a scale with you? It seems to me, if you had a scale the coyote would have wieghed a specific amount, i.e. 32.5 lbs.
Next you tell us it was 600 yds, what rangefinder told you that? Which brand do you prefer? It is amazing that it was exactly 600 yds, not 608 or 596.
Then the wind was blowing 20 to 25 mph, well not blowing, it was ripping. And yet you were able to hold on the nose of a walking coyote and make the perfect shot. And to top that off you held your crosshairs there, no holdover??? Are you sighted in dead on at 600 yds? Good Grief!!!!
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 27, 2006, 07:50 AM:
I believe you dogs.
Of course, I know you off the "net" as well, just not on here.
Cal, an average sized female coyote for this area isn't worth finding a scale for. And 2dogs has stated he doesn't have a range finder. Therefore the estimates of "low 30's" and 600 yards.
On the shot and were to aim, maybe the wind eliminated the need to "lead" the coyote as he walked?
How far do you lead a coyote walking or trotting at appox 600 yards? And then add the wind into the mix... not knowing the exact range and it changing as he's walking, etc... I think it's called a Hail Mary, LOL? And by the looks of it 2 of dogs Hail Mary's connected well.
I guess it's better to be lucky than good anyday?
later,
scruffy
[ February 27, 2006, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 08:39 AM:
Scruffy, You are welcome to believe what you want. But I choose not to. BS is BS and a guy can only take so much. I think 2Dogs is like the proverbial "Christmas Goose". At 600 yds a crosswind like that would blow you off over 6 feet, with the particular bullet and caliber he is shooting, but who knows what direction it was blowing in relation to the shot, but he made the statement that he held "right on it's nose". And again, no mention of any holdover. There's a guy or two on here that knows what it would take to pull off such a shot, Tim Behle shoots at those ranges in matches and occasionally on coyotes, and would have a good idea of the reality of that shot in gusty winds.
This is not the first in a long line of windy stories that have came up. His dad choking a cat comes to mind. I would have loved to see his dad's hand after that one. I dispatch most of my trapped bobcats with a choke pole and a mans hand would be hamburger after choking a cat to death. And to top that off, what the hell does that or eating a chunk of raw pigeon that was blown off a bird by a pellet gun way back when in the good old days, have to do with anything here.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 09:44 AM:
Thanks anyway, Scruff. I don't need a wingman, ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
----------
Cal,
Believe as you may...BS, whatever Cal . A Coyote Den...ever seen one! LOL!
I guess whatever comes from you is a natural fact. ADC MAN!
Seems you ADC guys, cant stand anyone with more field experience than thou . I've read your book
First off, my Dad had thick muscled arms [from working hard his whole life]. He never took #### from anyone, let alone a cat. His son's are the same, take that to the bank...bucko. Our Dad, hated cats, especially the one that hurt his little girl. I hate cats & adc gentlemen ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
He grabbed that cat by the back of his neck. Used his lower legs to pin, the dirtbag against the lower portion of the bench. Leave my Dad out of your #### comments, about me.
The coyote...I've shot a boatload, way out there. Some were running, LOL!. You funny long time
That recent coyote pic, was well past the 1/4 mile marker[we have 1/4 mile & 1/2 mile fence line's here! Duh!]
My rifle is set for 440yrds zero'd. Yah wind..It was RIPPIN 20-25mph from by backside...towards the walking coyote. That make YOUR BS more TRUE? You funny
A half mile here, is 880yrds[or didn't you know that! DUH!]. I don't shoot'em from a wuss-plane. Talk about clubbing fish in a barrel!. She was closing in on the 1/2 mile[MR. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!]
I put the horizontal hair on the top of her back. Bead on her nose. The rest is history.
[ February 27, 2006, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 09:57 AM:
Almost forgot Cal...forgive me
I've shot & weighed enough coyotes to be able to pick one up & estimate it's weight. You able to do that? LOL!.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2006, 10:21 AM:
Okay, guys....
Myself, I count my steps, out and back and I always have a scale with me. I have made so few 600 yard shots that I remember every single one.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 10:27 AM:
Another thing ADC Cal, What's with this "Us" & "We" business .
Is this your "Web-Site"????? HUH! If you don't like what I have to say, Why do you see fit. To "STRAIGHTEN" me out & "enlighten" the rest of the viewers of my "BS"
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 10:30 AM:
Show me some of YOUR "Coyote Den pic's"
So I know what to look for. As I don't have a clue You must have quite afew, with all of your experience.
Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on February 27, 2006, 10:46 AM:
2dogs,
Hey Bud, don't take this the wrong way but the story about the shot sounded like BS to me too.
Your rifle is Zeroed at 440 nad you hit him at 600 with a dead on hold? No holdover??
As far as the aerial gunning for coyotes. I would LOVE to do that. Hell, I'd pay to do it!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 10:50 AM:
Mule,
That bullit dropped 5-6". Hit her low chest area. I wished he lived near by. It'd be a safe bet for him, to stake his dog out 600yrds, and give me 1-rd.
edit; Besides, he stated. I've said other[BS], with what I've posted in the past. A class act, for sure.
[ February 27, 2006, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 27, 2006, 02:15 PM:
Cal,
I've been biting my tongue for a long time too.
But the bell on this damned thing drives me nuts every time I read one of his posts.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:20 PM:
Speak up, Tim. By all means let me hear it.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:23 PM:
I'm waiting.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:30 PM:
Come on Tim. Don't wait for someone else! TALK!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:31 PM:
OH! the suspence
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:44 PM:
Still waiting, Tim.
whoops edited; for spelling
[ February 27, 2006, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:55 PM:
Surely, you've had time to type up something .
This reminds me of the dog on the ground, scenario. Doesn't take long for the others in the pack, wanting some payback. For past transgressions.
Let me see your fangs!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 02:59 PM:
Hmmm, now I'm curious. As to WHY! you waited so long for your vent. LOL! BTW, I'm still waiting
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 03:05 PM:
Ding! Ding! Ding! There goes Tim's meter AGAIN!
A 95 grain bullet leaving the barrel at 3400 F.P.S. zeroed dead on at 400 yds will drop 32 inches at 600. So even zeroed at 440 it will still drop over 25 inches at 600yds. 25 INCHES!!!
Thats not holding on the hairline.
Oh, that info is from Sierra reloading manual, not my book. But if I ever write a book 2Dogs, you should read it.
[ February 27, 2006, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:07 PM:
440yrds Cal. Get it right. Is that out of a 24" barrel?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:11 PM:
Cal,
Bill Prudden's ballistic chart, says different.
BTW, answer my previous comments.
also show me a pic[one of yours] of what a TRUE coyote Den looks like. BTW, where's your backup...Tim
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 03:12 PM:
Look above, I posted the info for a 440yd zero also. Barrel length is irrelavant, velocity is, and I'm giving you about an extra 50 fps than you can actually be getting out of your rifle. Unless you can tell me you chronographed it and have a magic rifle that will produce 4 or 500 fps more than any other 243 WSSM out there. I'm pretty sure that a chronograph would be of no use to you, since a rangefinder isn't.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 03:17 PM:
A real coyote den. Note the packed down grass and worn areas. That is because coyotes were LIVING there. Not a hole in the ground that they occasionally visit.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:18 PM:
Well, that coyote was past the 1/4 mile by over halfway to the 1/2 mile fence. Now how many yrds would YOU say that was? I call that 600.
Was it 600 exactly???. Don't know. Was it 648...Don't know??. I never said I "Lazored" it. But I can see very well. Besides useing the fenclines as a reference. I guess that's "BS" in anyone's book, except your's & your buddy.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:20 PM:
So a "coyote den" is only a coyote den. When there is one "living" or "in" there...According to you.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:22 PM:
Tell me more of "my BS".
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:24 PM:
So if a coyote, go's in/out of a "hole". That mysteriously looks like a coyote den. It's not "really" a coyote den??. LOL!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:27 PM:
You'll note. [I know your checking Bill's Ballistic chart]. That the 95gr will drop roughly the same, as I've stated in my post, that occured on that coyote.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:35 PM:
Cal/tim,
Share with everyone, more of my BS stories!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:37 PM:
Yup, thought that pidgeon story. Would give a few some chuckles. I guess, that's BS. Why? should anyone laugh?
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 03:39 PM:
2Dogs,
I was giving you too much velocity. I went to my Hodgdon reloading manual and the most you can get out of a 24" barrel is 3245 fps with a 90 grainer not a 95, so it is safe to assume that you can't get a 95 going faster that the 90. So actually that puts your drop, with your zero at alittle more than 25". This is simple info to look up.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:42 PM:
Here's what I'm seeing. You two, probably some others as well. Got a bone with me. So you both saw fit. To put the "boot" to me. No problem. But, I don't drop easy.
Funny thing, is I was out in the field after predators, long before either of you. That rubs the wrong way, now don't it.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:43 PM:
So what your saying is Cal. That Your Ballistic book is "exact" in all circumstance's, eh.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:47 PM:
You ever shoot at a coyote that far, Cal? Whats the mystery there. A decent shooter with the right rig. Shouldn't be a big problem. Where's Tim
Coyote Dens, SooOOOoo. EXACTLY, what should they "ALL" look like? What dimensions EXACTLY?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:49 PM:
Tell me more of ALL of my BS.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 03:59 PM:
Funny, I spoke of missing a coyote from 70' away. That I stalked up on. Neither of you said a thing wrong with that. I whack a couple way out there. Then it becomes BS. Classic!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 04:06 PM:
If you've EVER shot at a coyote past 440yrds. The farther out your coyote, the smaller they are...Crosshairs cover more of your target...DUH!
Was I EXACTLY ontop of her Back Don't know. But, I had the horizontal crosshair on her back.
WAS I EXACTLY on her nose Don't know. But, looked that way to me. You are beating a dead horse. With all of this perfection.
Are either of you PERFECT Speak up.
What did she weigh EXACTLY . Don't know EXACTLY. My estimation, was low 30's.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 27, 2006, 04:18 PM:
Perhaps under differnt circumstance's Us 3 would be having a beer together & laughing ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Oh WelllLLLllll .
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2006, 04:37 PM:
Okay, as much as I hate to do this, let's tackle another issue, please. LB
open for business...and, I'm all for a beer.
[ February 27, 2006, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2006, 05:39 PM:
Okay, finally tracked down Tim. He's out there somewhere
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 27, 2006, 05:53 PM:
I'm sorry, I was only home for about 15 minutes and had to leave for a meeting.
Hey Cal, did I show you the picture of the 97 pound Bobcat I shot last weekend while shooting off hand from the cab of a moving train, at a range of 947 yards in a 63 MPH crosswind?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 27, 2006, 05:58 PM:
WOW!!! 2dogs
23 posts in two hours.
I think that's a new record for a meltdown.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 27, 2006, 06:00 PM:
Tim very nice giant cat. But a real man would have a long barrel on his rifle.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 27, 2006, 06:03 PM:
Great Pic Tim,
Sounds good to me Leonard, sorry to muddle your board with this BS.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 27, 2006, 06:15 PM:
Tim, I didn't know you were expecting. Congradulations!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 27, 2006, 07:06 PM:
Was it going into or coming out of the bobcat den hole?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2006, 07:12 PM:
You have to huff it, Lance.
That looks like the exact same yucca I made a stand with Vic, once?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 27, 2006, 07:31 PM:
WOW! When I checked this thread last it was at like 38 posts.What a difference a day makes.LOL
2dogs,
I agree with Cal,Ballistics are Ballistics They don't change from one book to another.Maybe load data does but not the ballistics of the bullet.
I remember a while back questioning that type of long range shooting on coyotes. Chad
[ February 27, 2006, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 27, 2006, 07:39 PM:
Well now, Leonard, I find myself compelled to make a remark about the merits of sticking my "nose" in a "cat"...
Since this is a family-friendly site, I'll refrain. Don't want some up and coming young hunter asking his mom what Mr. Cdog means with those tic marks, and, "Mommy, what's another word for cat? And, why would you put your nose in there?"
Nope. Don't wanna go there at all. Not at all.
Aside from that, I have nothing to contribute to this thread, so I'll just shut up and read.
Back to the brawl....>>>
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on February 27, 2006, 07:47 PM:
Thanks Cal.
Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on February 27, 2006, 07:49 PM:
I've had plenty of beer reading all of 2dogs posts. Walk away man and try not to return every 2 minutes! Oh yeah...those damn ADC guys.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 27, 2006, 08:37 PM:
Man, I'm glad I was gone hunting today.
Pouring rain, locked gates, bad bad bad roads, and Red forgetting his ammo, were still more fun than this looks like.
My condolences to all involved.
Krusty
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on February 27, 2006, 09:26 PM:
Tim very nice giant cat. But a real man would have a long barrel on his rifle.
And i thought it was a shotgun
Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on March 04, 2006, 04:34 PM:
I think he wants to make sure every granule is burned.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 08, 2006, 07:39 AM:
Tim,
Glad I finally got to see your new hat. I like it.
Why did you carry that cat all the way out there just for a picture? You planning on baiting for long range coyotes?
My strong suit is not math but from my rough calculations I came up with the following and may need some of you experts to grade my paper:
Let's assume a 20" sighting radius on a rifle. Ignore bullet drop for the moment.
A 1/100th inch (0.01-inch) misalignment of the sights too HIGH would have a 10.8" delta at 600 yards.
A misalignment of 0.015-inches too HIGH would have a 16.2" delta at 600 yards.
A misalignment of 0.02-inches too HIGH would have a 21.6" delta at 600 yards.
So if the gun is zeroed at 440 yards and drops 25 inches at 600 yards, then it would seem perfectly logical to me if that the "held on the hairline" statement was jerked up a couple hundredths of an inch making difference between the actual holdover (21.6”) and bullet drop (25”) a mere 3.4-inches which is well within the kill range.
Still pondering the drift, but it could be the bullet was a flyer and happened to hit the coyote. They gotta hit somewhere.
[ March 08, 2006, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on March 08, 2006, 08:39 AM:
Jay, You truly are the "Devils Advocate"! I was just stating my opinion that with no rangefinder, no dialing of the scope and no holdover reference, and including gusty winds, that the chances of making shots like that with any regularity is virtually impossible. Anyone can make the very occasional lucky hail mary shot, but supposidly this happens quite regularly. In reality, it is damn hard to see a coyote with the naked eye at 600 yds. Here's another interesting point, with the information that we currently have on the 440 yard zero, at 200 yards he would be hitting roughly 10 inches high. So is he holding a foot low for those shots?
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 08, 2006, 09:10 AM:
Hey Cal,
Not picking on you or anyone and certainly no disagreement on this end, but one of my personal pitfalls is that I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt (with the exception of Higgins of course). Well, Leonard too. Come to think of it Lance, Ronnie, Sue and Gerald. OK, there’s a whole internet full of fellows I occasionally doubt.
Anyway…All this kind’a ties in with Behle's "Hold my beer and watch this" don't it?
It’s tough to tell when luck approaches skeeel. LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2006, 09:12 AM:
I've noticed that 2dogs isn't participating, any longer. Wonder what might have offended him?
Maybe I should turn on the "private message" feature, but every other board that uses it, at some point, decides that it is most useful for pissing people off privately, rather than publically, escalating the bickering to two fronts.
so, 1/100 of an inch, eh? That explains many of my 600 yard misses.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on March 08, 2006, 09:59 AM:
I guess some of you will just say this is more BS, so if you don't want to read it just ignore it...
"Larry", the guys that was with him, went back out to the spot of the shot and ranged where the coyote was, but didn't know the exact spot the coyote was standing, so he ranged the hillside where the coyote was, the shot was from 520 to 578 yards, depending on where the coyote was on that hillside. I think he said the rangefinder what a lieca (or however you spell it).
His scope has a mildot recticle. 2dogs had the horizontal axis set at 440 yards and had determined, using the mils above the horizontal axis, where to aim for 200, 100, etc, shorter ranges.
The wind was at his back. 5mph wind or 100 mph wind, drift is the same?
All of this, with the exception of the range finder results, is information that was previously posted in this or other threads by 2dogs.
He said he guessed on the range, he guessed alot better than I would have, LOL.
You can call it BS if you like. He probably won't be back here.
If I post a story of a kill I'll be sure to include facts verified with scales and range finders, or it'll just be a picture. I don't want anyone thinking I'm full of BS...
Jay, what you said made since. 2dogs said a coyote at that range is pretty small (14x I assume), it's hard to say if the cross airs were on the top of his back, or a foot or so above, on a coyote moving up and down a bit as he walked, and then figure in any jump or flinch or pull as the trigger is pulled, at that range alot of little things add up to a big change in trajectory. Hense hits that shouldn't have been hits, or misses that should have been hits.
Lucky or BS, it's your perception I guess.
Cal, I don't know why anyone would get the percection that "supposidly this happens quite regularly". If you've been reading his posts you know that he regularly misses at these ranges. In his posts here you know he's connected on two long range this winter, missed a "boat load" more at that range as well as missing a close one at 70 yards he stalked in on.
2dogs has told me many times he doesn't need a "wing man", and I'm not posting this as such. I haven't felt like posting here either. Kind of feel that if what I post doesn't fit the mold of what you guys consider at "normal" it'll be assumed as BS.
Kind of like coyotes digging holes in the snow on the ice of Lake Red Rock a couple years ago. To get out of the wind? I wouldn't have believed coyotes would do that but two friends out ice fishing saw the tracks in the snow on the ice while ice fishing, followed the tracks to one hole, out popped a coyote from a hole. The next day and the following weekend they left the fishing poles at home (something I do all winter...) and took out their 22-250's and called multiple coyotes in from the holes in the snow on the ice.
So I guess it isn't a stretch for me that a coyote used a hole in the ground when they've used a hole in the snow on the ice?
BS? Coyotes don't do that??? Maybe here in Iowa the adaptable coyote has adapted to more easily survive the weather, hunters, wild dogs, hounds, who knows why? I don't know. Personally I don't care. If our coyotes don't fit your world, well, I guess that doesn't really effect me.
If you think I'm full of BS also, well, that's your right. Just let me know. I'll spend my time somewhere else also.
later,
scruffy
[ March 08, 2006, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2006, 11:02 AM:
Good post, scruffy.
There are a few people that have mentioned that they are not comfortable with throwing lead at 600 yard coyotes.
And a few believe that an attempt to call them might work, but only if there would be a truce in jumping out of the truck and blasting away at every coyote, whether he's a makable shot or not.
I am trying to keep an open mind about "methods" in general. But, there are not many "stalk and shoot" predator hunting sites on the 'net, so those that practice this type of hunting should expect a few questions. I'm trying to be fair to everybody, but I can't fight every battle for the very few against the majority. Personally, I think there is some value in divergent points of view; food for thought.
It has been said before: if everybody agreed on everything, we wouldn't need message boards, or get bored to death.
As far as 2dogs, if you think he is picked on, you should see some of the flack directed at Krusty, yet he is still hanging in there. I know what you are going to say: "who needs the abuse" right? And, you would have a good point.
These forums aren't perfect, just cheap entertainment that keeps us out of the Honky Tonks, spending money on fat chicks.
Good hunting. LB
[ March 08, 2006, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on March 08, 2006, 11:23 AM:
Man, this is like a novel or something...LOL!.
No problem with disagreements. Personally, I can't respect "anyone" who always agrees.It would be a boring life if everyone kissed each other's hiney. "My problem" arose, when my [deceased Father] was drug into it. The "BS" part was just the frosting.
I don't hate anyone on here. But I did @ that moment. ADC folks = good
I agree, I don't generally play well with other's...somedays. Can't help that, eh.
I recall reading recently, [Q] does some spot/stalking as well . Hey, I never said, I was a "caller" LOL!, but learned from this site .
Banter or disagreeing, is fine. But agression, I'd rather do in person.
Later,
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2006, 12:11 PM:
You are absolutely right, 2dogs! Quinton did admit to spot and stalk, and if the truth were known, a lot of people do it from time to time, myself included.
You and Charlene are welcome to discuss anything you like, including those "Hail Mary's" that many others try, from time to time. Be careful about specifics, that is where others pay close attention. Just something you learn, sooner or later. And "coyote" holes, eh?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 08, 2006, 12:16 PM:
2dogs, Q will surely do a better job of explaining this when he sees it, but he only does the S&S thing when he sees one that looks like the odds are better to sneak in on it rather than setting up to call. He keeps all options on the tabel as opportunities present themselves, and is equally effective at each. He'll make every heroic effort to sneak to within chipshot range if at all possible. Likely that you do the same thing, I presume. But, there are some pretty extreme differences between the area he hunts and areas like you and I hunt. For one, there aren't roads everywhere. He can make a 10-mile loop and not cross a road in some areas. He might see a coyote while on a walkabout and put the sneak on him because wherever that coyote is headed is likely harder to access than what he wants to commit time to.
Me? If I see a coyote just out and about, my first thought is where is it headed. My second, do I have permission to call there? If so, I let him go on about his business and head where he's headed to, go around the backside of that place, sneak in and be hiding there when he arrives. Those coyotes are far from uncallable and I made coats out of several this past season using that very strategy. The hail Mary's only serve to wise up already nervous coyotes, or result in crippling hits in the rare case when someone doesn't miss cleanly due in large part to either poor shot placement or a severe lack of kinetic energy upon impact. Not saying you... just stating the odds. Fact is, and my area is the same as yours, you guys seem to lay a lot of the blame for uncallable coyotes at the feet of dogwagons when spray-and-pray gunmen are probably more of the problem. Most of the dog men around here hold the same contempt for us as we do for them because,in their opinion, we cripple a lot of coyotes with bad shots.
Like Leonard, I'm open minded and try to stay objective about how other guys choose to hunt and kill their coyotes. It's the guys that miss a lot, weird out a lot of coyotes making them harder for other guys to shoot, and those that can't find the patience to seek out high percentage shot opportunities or who nicely refuse to use techniques that result in better success rates that pet me wrong.
One last thing about Q... if he did consider spot and stalk his primary means of killing coyotes, I ( and anyone else that's seen that guy shoot) can assure who it would have absolutely NO deleterious effect on his end of season totals. I've seen that boy rack up kills on running coyotes, quartering away, at 580+ yards. Therefore, and no offense intended, attempting to defend your frequency of misses by citing the fact that Quinton S&S's, too, just doesn't apply much in this case. Don't know if that's where you were headed with that, but that's kind of how I saw it.
Oh,... and for the record, I made my single lifetime best shot this winter. Called a female in that I'd seen on the snow just before good sunlight and she tried to circle me to get my wind. I took a 200 yard shot and missed. She ran quartering away and I took a second miss at her. The third shot went as she was approaching the river's edge and a certain escape. Caught her behind the left shoulder with the exit out the right side of the neck just fore of the scapula. 375 yards, give or take, ranged by Rockie Boots. I thought it was an incredible shot and was rightfully proud of myself. Until two days later when I missed a gimme at under 150. Huh? My gun hadn't been knocked around since the longshot two days prior, so I went to the range. At a hundred, off the bench, I was 2-inches right and 4.5-inches high. Moral to the story? That coyote was meant to die. If I'd have missed with the third shot, I'm all but certain a bolt of lightning would have come from the heavens and blown her all to hell, right there on the spot. So, instead of calling that my personal "best" shot, I now consider it my personal "luckiest" shot. Would I take it again? No. The only reason I took it then was because the guy that owned that place lost 20 lambs last year and I don't pass up a chance to be "lucky" given an opportunity.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on March 08, 2006, 12:22 PM:
Leonard, I agree with everything you said. I'm also glad Krusty has stuck it out, I've gottent a ton of call information, materials, and a very nice call and lanyard from him. His generosity has literally changed the way I call and hunt.
I just like to know where I stand. If you guys don't want to hear stories of coyotes holing up in snow banks on a man made lake, think it's BS, I'd like to know that. Kind of like you comment to 2dogs on specifics, I'm just trying to find where to draw the line with this "audience". I've learned there are times when I should just save my breath, LOL. Life is too short IMHO.
2dogs, according to UPS tracking the "new" versa pod 9-12" bipod with swivel and pan adjustments/locks will be here tomorrow. I'll have to look at your pics of your versa with the "skis" more closely. I'm going to try to come up with a removeable set for mine for next winter's snow (since it looks like it's rain here on out this winter...). I'm thinking maybe wood and surgical tubing for the prototype.
later,
scruffy
[ March 08, 2006, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2006, 02:10 PM:
That deserves mention. Those feet on his bipod for shooting on snow is a good idea.
I see nothing wrong with talking about coyotes tunneling into snowbanks. In fact, maybe that would explain a few that have suddenly popped up on me, before?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on March 08, 2006, 02:28 PM:
Leonard, have you seen any of the clips on the deer hunting shows on the outdoor channel and such where a buck or doe is walking, gets nervous, then all the sudden a coyote that was burried under a drift of snow jumps out at the deer and they both run/chase off?
Pretty interesting! Is the coyote under/in the drift hunting off of sound and/or scent?
The clips looked to be a coyote ambush setup. The holes in the snow on the ice at Red Rock were more for "bedding".
I was invited to go with them last year to "call on the ice" but declined the offer. I'm not much for walking on ice covered lakes.
Speaking of ice, the wife just called, ground is covered with hail back at the homestead.... Dang screwy weather... ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Why can't it just snow or rain...
later,
scruffy
[ March 08, 2006, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 08, 2006, 03:12 PM:
scruffy,
Have you and 2dogs tried catching one of those coyotes out there on the ice? You know, like saw a hole in the ice and sprinkle a can of peas all around it. When coyote comes in to take a pea, you just kick him in the ice hole. That is a secret set out near Gillette, Wyoming.
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on March 08, 2006, 04:07 PM:
LOL,..Damn you,Rich! I laughed so hard i slobberd snuff down my shirt ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on March 09, 2006, 06:31 AM:
Rich, no we haven't tried that. You likely won't ever find me on the ice anyway. Just not my thing.
later,
scruffy
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 09, 2006, 10:34 AM:
Hey you guys can leave me out of it.
I'm lost, it's like standing there listening to magicians argue, it's all way beyond my understanding (just like you flatlanders cannot know what hunting the woods here is like).
With statements like "I always stalk a spotted coyote whenever I can rather than try to call it. It keeps the odds in my favor. Q" it makes it even harder to comprehend what the heck each dude is doing (or that both kinds of S&S are not the same... both guys do it believing it will improve their odds (to be quiet?))?
For my own self, in my own situation, I too believe there is merit to silently waiting it out, instead of lessening my odds by calling.
I am trying to figure that out, with my new tree stand.
quote:
...if you think he is picked on, you should see some of the flack directed at Krusty
Leonard,
Do I detect a sense of pride in there? I don't know how to take that... 
Krusty
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 09, 2006, 01:32 PM:
"I always stalk a spotted coyote whenever I can rather than try to call it."
-----------
Krusty,
I can't say that I have ever seen a spotted coyote.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 09, 2006, 03:03 PM:
Rich,
I never have either... it must be because we're callers?
Q did say the odds of stalking them are better.
Amen, and pygmies, and all that...
Krusty
P.S. Geeze, pickin' on poor Q, for his poor grammar... I knew there was a reason I liked you.
[ March 09, 2006, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on March 09, 2006, 05:12 PM:
Krusty,
Q hasn't even posted on this thread
In any case..
This calls for a big ole group hug
[ March 09, 2006, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: MULE ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on March 09, 2006, 05:14 PM:
Krusty,
Spotted man, spotted. Like in dalmation or dot to dot coyotes. Shessh!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2006, 05:26 PM:
Don't worry, Rich. Some of us "got" it.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 09, 2006, 07:39 PM:
MULE,
I don't do group hugs.
Q has been the subject of this thread, and Lance said he might have something to say, I thought what he already said seemed relevant.
And if he does have something to say, maybe that will give him someplace to work from.
Other than the amount of roads and therefore the amount of walking, I don't see much difference (because the whole concept is so foreign to me).
I don't understand how and why Q or Vic can be in-freakin'-credibly good shots, and 2D can't?
Rich and Leonard,
I got it...
Spotted (ie polka-dotted) coyotes don't respond to the call, the odds are better of stalking them, that's why I never seen one either.
Lookin' at himself in the mirror has obviously ruined Cronk's vision, so he'd never spot one out there in the flatlands anyways.
Heck, they might be a supersecret subspecies of coyote (the subject of a billion dollar study), Higgy won't tell us about?
They live underground, on worms and grubs, for the entire denning season, in a hole the size of a sewer cap in the bank of a river (that smells like garlic)... so Q hangs up his guns and goes back to the sixth grade edjumication that has eluded him, like my first coyote has me.
Had Q used commas, the joke still could have been done.
I don't have much else to rattle Q's cage (back) with besides his words, and the poor assemblage thereof.
I got it. 
Krusty
Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on March 09, 2006, 08:14 PM:
Ya know what I think?
It doesn't matter what I think.
But if it did
I would have to say that tall brunette on the left..the one the cut blonde is hanging on.
Is freakin' HOT!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 09, 2006, 08:40 PM:
MULE,
The one with the "manly" hands? The "cut blonde"?
You wanna know what I think? I ain't sayin', and I ain't sitting next to you at the campfire either.
Krusty
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2006, 09:37 PM:
the one with the huge jugs gets my vote.
Posted by MULE (Member # 63) on March 10, 2006, 09:48 AM:
Krusty
Manly hands? What the feck are you talking about?
Sorry for the typo...I meant CUTE blonde
I see in all the time I have been gone you have become the site "school marm".
Don't worry about sitting next to me at the campfire. Already got a designated seat for you....right next to Q
Leonard
You got Xray vision? I can't see no boobies
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 10, 2006, 10:07 AM:
With reguards to the topic of camo, wear it if you got it, dont worry if you don't. In the western states i wear desert brown camo, at home i wear what ever i got on at the time. If you look close at pic. you will notice I'm wearing a orange cap, do you think the coyotes noticed it. If they did it was to late, thats why they are dead. 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 10, 2006, 10:45 AM:
quote:
Leonard
You got Xray vision? I can't see no boobies
Happy Thoughts!
[ March 10, 2006, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 10, 2006, 11:01 AM:
MULE,
Yeah, her (slightly) hairy forearm, and thickly viened hand seem a little "tuff" to me (compared to say, the CUTE blonde's hand), but hey to each his own.
I am far from a "school marm". Notice I didn't bother to correct Q's grammar (or your typo)?
You were gone, or here before, or something?
Rich made the first joke (with grammar), I just ran with the theme.
Either way, I was just funnin' with you guys. Sheesh!?!
Krusty
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 10, 2006, 11:51 AM:
TARem17, first of all, a coyote sees in the blue spectrum, not the red. Your flourescent orange cap appears gray to the coyote.
Your photo proves my contention that camo is a concept not a color or pattern. What busts a caller is directing a coyotes attention to a human form or shape. Your gray watch cap will direct a coyotes attention to a large frog taking a dump, which will confound and confuse the coyote long enough for you to take a leisurely shot.
Great camo ,Sir.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 10, 2006, 11:52 AM:
you guys shure talk about those sheep and chaps alot,makes me wonder. LOL.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 10, 2006, 12:47 PM:
TA, I think they are kidding, at least I hope so? (I'm told we are writing a NOVEL, here?)
By the way, very nice brace of coyotes. God, do I hate pulling cold stiff coyotes!
Good huting. LB
[ March 10, 2006, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 10, 2006, 11:37 PM:
Yes I have spotted and stalked coyotes but I have never stalked a “spotted” coyote before. LOL I have spotted them from the pickup and then stalked them. I have spotted them from the pickup and rolled down the window and shot them. Hell, sometimes I have to get out and lay across the hood. I am not proud I will usually take what I can get just like every other coyote hunter out there.
While out calling I will spot coyotes bedded or hunting sometimes and will stalk within range and then either shoot the coyote or try to squeak him up a bit closer. It all depends on the range and wind direction or even how the ground lays. Bottom line is I will handle each situation as I see fit. In another post I did say that if I spot a coyote I would rather stalk it than call it because it keeps the odds in my favor.
I feel that when a coyote is bedded he is venerable because I take over the full role of being the hunter rather than sharing the role with the coyote as I would in a calling situation. Secondly, there is no telling what a coyote will do after he hears the call. He may come, he may go and he may just sit there. Sunning coyotes in midday will often just sit there. If the coyote leaves, you lose. If the coyote just sits there you could lose. “Could” being the operative word.
The problem with calling coyotes you have already seen is that if they don’t come in to the call you have just effectively pinned yourself down. If a coyote knows you are there or something is there he will focus much of his attention in your direction. This will make your last option (the stalk) more difficult.
My aim is that if I see a coyote I will get as close to it as I feel comfortable. After that I will either take my shot or I will squeak it up. The most important thing to me is to be within range of the coyote so whether he decides to come, stay or leave I still have a chance of skinning him.
Now, that same principle applies to one of my favorite calling strategies. The sneak, peak and squeak. This is effectively the same concept except I do not know for sure if or where the coyote is. Most callers/hunters have a specialty or a certain knack for something and mine would be reading structure. I really specialize in hunting structure and have adopted the sneak, peak and squeak system to accommodate it.
How it works is I will identify a series of drainages or bank of sand hills or a stretch of creek or river bottom that I feel holds coyotes. I will sneak into a likely spot that overlooks some potential hiding spots for coyotes and I will look (peak) until I am satisfied nothing is in view or has seen me. From there I will either lip squeak or squeak on my PeeWee. I will usually adjust my volume to the conditions but I try not to let it reach out much past my effective shooting range.
Coyotes will do the same thing whether you have spotted them or not. They will either come or leave or just sit there. The only thing that you can bank on is that they will look. When everything goes right they are screwed no matter what they decide to do because of the way I have set things up.
I am out to kill coyotes so I do not limit my self to one particular style or method. Yes there is a couple of styles I like to use when I can like the one above because of it’s effectiveness BUT there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is just to many variables you have to deal with to dedicate your self to only one means. To get the most coyotes out of your area I think it is very important to be well rounded and versed.
About the camouflage issue that was bought up on another thread, rather than dig up that thread I will just take the liberty of addressing it here. I don’t mean to hijack the thread but considering how many times my name has came up I’ll take the chance. LOL
NO I don’t where camouflage well almost never but kind of. Honestly the last time I wore the full attire was when Rich came up to film me. I figured that I had better dress the part if I was going to be on television. LOL When I am prone and behind the rifle it really doesn’t matter what I am wearing because I am elevated above my shooting field. When I kill a coyote he is generally 100 yards or beyond also. My camo is my Carhartts, which possibly to my advantage happens to be of natural colors. Lance affectionately called them a “friggin' train wreck.” LOL Thanks buddy! LOL
The colors are neutral; I am no more than 12/14 inches off the ground and am elevated. Mission accomplished. For my area and my style of hunting Carhartts are as good as anything going. It has been said a thousand times and maybe more that silhouetting and movement is what gives you away and I agree. If you need camo to help mask movements or your silhouette in your area then you are smart to use it. For my money I would skip the fancy patterns and find some of the leafy wear stuff that matches the shades of your hunting area. That or go all out and get a ghilly. (spelling?)
I am just the opposite of a lot of callers in the fact that I do not want coyotes close. One hundred yards is just right. This space allows me a greater range of movement with out being detected and it is easier to fallow a moving target (laying prone) at that distance than it would be at 25 to 50 yards. Every area you hunt in is different I suppose and will have it’s own requirements but for the areas I hunt camo is no necessity.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 11, 2006, 04:32 AM:
Quinton,
I meant that term "train wreck" in the nicest, almost endearing, sort of way. Actually, it was my intent to imply that the natural wear patterns you had imparted to the canvas-like outer shell had established a chaotic compilation of light and dark tones, ideally juxtaposed with one another and within the entire scheme that, for all intents and purposes, outperforms any photorealistic camouflage pattern on the market today within the majority representative habitat structure common to the sandhills region. Thus, you're welcome.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2006, 08:34 AM:
Very good post, Q.
Lance, you could have said: "he blends in" and saved some bandwidth, but what the hell, this novel has plenty chapters, what's one more?
By the way, I find myself in agreement with much of what Quinton wrote. Probably the reason I don't see as many bedded coyotes is because they have a lot more cover? When I see a coyote, it is highly likely that he's moving, even if it's because I bumped him.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on March 11, 2006, 12:22 PM:
When Q finally graces the forum with one of his "something to think about" posts it is always worth the wait. These in-depth posts, well thought, based on long and varied experience should be collected, printed and stored in a good binder.
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