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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 10:48 AM:
Coyote den they used, to hunker-in during a snow storm. My other snow pics, didn't turn out.
[ January 01, 2006, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 10:50 AM:
Same den as above. I always stick my face down into the opening. To inhale the lovely scent of coyote! LOL!
[ January 01, 2006, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 10:51 AM:
Timber, Dad's trailhound "Pokey" pushed a 47lb female coyote out of. Coyote fought two of our toughest Greyhounds, seperately @ different times during the chase.
She kicked their hiney's big-time [one on one] ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
. I killed her with #4 Buffered Buck 12ga. When Pokey, had her bayed against a barbed fence. Circa; 1970.
[ January 01, 2006, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 10:52 AM:
Red Fox holed up in this piece of Galvinized culvert. That was laying in the ditch. The Red used it for a wk or so. To weather the wind & snow.
Checked it the other day, no sign whats so ever.
[ January 01, 2006, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 10:53 AM:
My old hunting jaunt, NorEast of M'town.
[ January 01, 2006, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on January 05, 2006, 06:24 AM:
Very interesting photos... never seen a coyote den in the open on flat ground. Impressive!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 06, 2006, 01:54 PM:
Jason,
That den was on a 20 degree grade hillside. Most of the dens I run across in the field. Are generally on a steeper hillside.
Whether I see any sign or not. I'll often stick my face in the hole. To see who's been there recently, LOL! Sometimes, I disgust myself ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
hole huffer-dogs ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 12, 2006, 04:27 PM:
Did you catch the coyotes going in and out of the den?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 12, 2006, 05:16 PM:
No.
Over the yrs, I've came across quiet a few [non-active] dens. Where coyote[s]have weathered out a storm [in]. This pic, is just one of them. They'll often use field drive culverts, as well.
So far this crunchy snow, has greatly diminished my kill #'s. Now, there is no snow. Very hard to spot them. But I keep going.
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 13, 2006, 03:45 AM:
i2dogs, I kind of wondered because I so seldom track a coyote into a hole.Generally cover is a washout tile intlet, culvert or most likely deep brush.Just a few times a hole in a terrace.Have kind of come to believe denning goes on predominantly raising pups.(naturally duh) only once I remember coming across a den that was being actively used in the winter,it was huge and had continuous activity in and out.Hunting pressure might force them to use dens more than they do here.Or like you say weather.The activity I see at these kind of dens is normally semi hibernated badgers who are not ready to share their home.Under some conditions it is difficult to tell the difference in tracks.Had a good old friend who was a great solo hunter tracker spotter who always had a problem with the difference.I saw you wrote about using dogs, is much of that going on where you hunt?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 13, 2006, 05:36 AM:
I've read several times that coyotes don't enter the dens after the pups leave them. However I did read that an early 19th century explorer on the great plains referred to them as "burrowing dogs" I'll bet that would contribute to that. There is that "Never" and "Always" thing again. On my video I have a segment on a "Denning Bitch" that cleaned out or dug three dens in a small triangle and did her bonkers routine when we set up a stand within 30 yards of it. That was on Dec. 8. "Always and Never".
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 13, 2006, 07:10 AM:
smoke em',
I'm with you on this. I have never seen coyotes use holes in the winter time unless they were being pushed by hunters or severely manged. Coyotes seldom use dens in the winter. You are right about trickle tubes or culverts. They know where every one of them is. If coyotes used holes, they'd dive for them when aerial hunted. They seldom do. They'd rather brush up. I've also seen them dive under the snow when chased by snowmobiles.
Good post Smoke em'. Sorry 2 dogs, I'm not buying it. Coyote den holes also tend to be oval, not round and they are usually found in pastures, not fields. I can see coyotes using a den hole under extreme cases of whether or being pushed but not an round hole in a field.
No offense but I think you found a badger hole.
~SH~
[ January 13, 2006, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2006, 08:10 AM:
I'll tell you one thing. Out here, it's hard to guess what first dug the hole and what might now be using that hole. Recycled. One thing I always heard was that coyotes prefer the side of a north facing hill? I also heard they dig their den in the biggest patch of prickley pear cactus that they can find?
I don't know a heck of a lot about dens since I don't hunt at all during denning season. I run across more fox dens than coyote.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 08:39 AM:
Wiley,
I'm not selling, LOL!
We have groundhogs & Badgers a plenty in Iowa. No doubt, coyotes take over their den's more often than not[opportunists, eh] .
BTW, most of the coyote dens, I come across. Are on a Southerly facing hillside[Sunny side, no wind in their face/ears]. When, I have a doubt as to "who's" living there....If intersted. I'll huff that hole.
I suppose, some doubt. That Red Fox will actually use a ditch culvert[across the road from an active farm]. As a permenant den, to rear their pup's, LOL! seen that,as well ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
...Hmmm, can't be true! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Never....say never.
edited; I used my boot, size 12". To rough estimate the opening size of that den. Over 12" wide & 16" tall.
[ January 13, 2006, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2006, 09:08 AM:
When I come across a hole that size, those general dimensions, is to consider if there might be ground squirrels or PD in the area? If so, I generally consider it a badger hole.
I have read accounts of people pouring a little gasoline down holes with a funnel and hose. They say there is no telling what's coming out, but they WILL come out. Never tried it.
Good hunting. LB
edit: looking at 2dogs first picture, I'm no expert, that's for damned sure, but the earth appears too evenly packed down for a badger hole? They usually shovel the dirt in one direction, but the dirt in the above pic looks like it has been trampled down quite a bit, like it is being used. Just asking, Scott. You obviously know a lot more about these things than I do?
[ January 13, 2006, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 09:27 AM:
Leonard,
Funny thing is some of the coyote den's I've seen have most of the dirt, straight out from the entrance. Some spread out, like the above pic.
Red Fox in these parts, are notorious for large soil mounds. As well as, mutiple holes. With an occasional [inverted vent hole]...What's that about! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
. I've huffed them too .
My wife's cousin, has some pics. Of a litter of Red Fox. That were raised right across the road from their farm. In a Galvanized field drive culvert. I'll ask if she'll e-mail one or two of them...Then post'em here.
My county has few pastures. The farms that do have them, are generally right up in the farmsted. Usually just a 1/2-1 acre.
We also have little to no brushpiles, or other cover. Mostly just rolling cropland. They make do, with what they have...eh.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 12:10 PM:
Well, forget about the Red Fox pics. My wife's cousin[self proclaimed photgrapher/batch!]. I told her off, back when my MIL was dying[she butted in, to run things] ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
. I would've called her into the street. If she were a male.
Anyways, my wife said she "***** " her pics...WooOOOOooo . Unlikely I'll get one from her. Asked Ma to ask her . Not gonna happen ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
.
Need more anger management class's-dogs
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 13, 2006, 01:20 PM:
2 dogs ,I hope you do not feel ganged up on, but do you claim to be able to smell the difference between a badger,coon, possum ,fox or coyote? .
As far as dens in open fields, do you assume all or most are coyotes or fox. Badgers do dig multiple holes in search of squirrels,mice, gophers, etc. I have farmed a large farm for 40 years and have seen hundreds and hundreds of dens in fields but never(I know never say never) seen a coyote associated with even one. .
[ January 13, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: smoke em ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 01:43 PM:
smoke em,
LOL! Gang ****, not gonna happen to me [you'd have to kill me first ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
].
Yup, I believe "most" coyote dens in my area. Were initally, dug by...Red Fox, Badgers & Groundhogs. A coyote worth it's salt will/can kill'em all[takes a little more commitment for Badgers, eh].
Obviously, coyotes are opportunists[let the other animal...dig my den ]. Gotta love'em, for their wit.
Next time, I take a pic of a den. I'll show my boot next to it. For size comparison. As that pic, apparently is decieving ...huh.
Never smelled a Badger, close up. Huffed plenty-o-coyotes & Red's though.
I had a couple snow pics of that same den during that same wk. After a snow storm. They were snow pics. There was a mess of coyote tracks going in/out of the den. Unfortunately the snow pics, didn't turn out.
I huffed the den that day[after the storm], strong odor of coyote.
Soon the snow started to melt. Went back a couple days later. A fresh inch of snow on the ground. One coyote came up by the den opening...paused. Then moved on.
I've seen this same scenario many times during snowfly.
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 13, 2006, 01:47 PM:
oops, you had already answered my pre edit post, thanks for the clarification.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 13, 2006, 04:02 PM:
2dogs, I have 2 dozen dens on video for just this reason. People can only tell you how and where a coyote will claim or construct a den according to their personal observations in their area. I have seen people post that a coyote will den in as remote a place as possible, as far from humans as possible. In reality they will den where ever they feel comfortable. Last year I videoed pups playing at a den on a hillside in full of an entire neighborhood. I videoed a den in an empty lot surrounded on three sides by the backyards of homes. I learned of the den from one of the homeowners who fed roadkill to the coyotes on a regular basis. The den was not excavated under any of the palo verde or mesquite in the area, but straight down into the ground in an open patch in full view of many of the homes. I have video of several dens that look like the photo you posted. On the other hand I found a den five or six miles from the nearest house, in the side of a wash under palo verde roots and I was amazed that a coyote could squeeze it's shoulders through that tiny rabbit hole.
Some of the dens are multiples, dug within a few feet of each other and all used simultaneously. Some are singles and used exclusively through the entire denning season. They vary in size and shape. Like most things coyote.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 04:11 PM:
Yup, 10-4 Rich.
Things are different, but still the same. When a guy/gal, thinks they've seen it all or have it figured out. Here comes a new one...duh, LOL!
I don't know what its like outside my area frankly,[personal experience, I'm talking]. Education just isn't the same as experience, IMO.
When I was young, I thought I really had something figured out. Nope, I was wrong .
Haven't tried it since
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 13, 2006, 04:20 PM:
This subject reminds me of "official" descriptions of coyote scat. The prestigious Arizona Sonora Desert Museum published a small book entitled "Desert Dogs- Coyotes, Foxes, & Wolves" In the chapter "Read the Signs" they show pictures of the tracks and scat of each of the animals along with a description of each. They describe the coyote scat as
"long cord with a "Dairy Queen" twirl-tail
3/4" in diameter or larger
omnivorous diet; hair, seeds
They then show a long hairy turd with a cute little twirl at the tapered end.
I've video'ed scat for the same reason I video'ed the dens. In the real world they are just far more varied than that.
Mounds of pink plop near watermelon fields
Mounds of orange plop near cantalope fields
Black squirts near dead piles.
Green mounds of mesquite seeds at all times of year.
Mounds of grasshopper legs.
And my favorite-- a mound of yellow styrofoam meat tray with 18 inches of cellophane trailing off.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 13, 2006, 05:35 PM:
Rich,
Don't confuse the issue here. The issue is whether or not the above pictured hole DURING THE WINTER is a coyote den not where coyotes will den during DENNING SEASON.
How many coyotes do you see using a den hole IN THE WINTER Rich??? Not many I presume.
2 dogs,
I do not dispute that red fox use culverts or holes YEAR ROUND. Red fox, particularly in coyote country, use holes quite readily. We see fox laying by holes all the time and dive into them as we fly over.
The only issue of contention here is whether or not the above pictured den IN THE WINTER is a coyote den. Coyotes seldom use holes outside of denning season. That's just a fact.
Iowa is no different than Eastern SD and we have guys flying coyotes virtually every day that's fliable. We seldom see them go in a hole even when they are pursued. They'd rather crawl in a culvert or brush up somewhere. Yes, once pressured they do ocassionally crawl in holes but the only time of year they use them readily is during the denning season.
You are right Leonard, after thinking about it, usually badgers don't pack the ground much unless they are denning. This would leave me to believe that the above hole was a fox den in coyote country. I'd bet a pretty penny that coyotes are not using it. It's not the right shape, it's not in the right place (tillable field), and it's not the right time of year.
Sorry 2 dogs, I'm still not buying that the above pic is a coyote den.
~SH~
[ January 13, 2006, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 13, 2006, 06:20 PM:
Scott, the issue is already confused. We were discussing den shape and location. Coyotes will construct and use round hole dens. The video I'm sending you next week contains a segment on a "Denning Bitch" who cleaned out or dug three dens within 5 and 10 feet of each other, Tracks and drag sign said that she was entering all three often. This was Dec.8.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2006, 06:20 PM:
Well, that's exactly what it looks like to me, not even gray fox, it has all the earmarks of a kit fox den.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 06:42 PM:
Wiley,
Believe as you may. I do not hold the power of changing a doubter. With your adiment fervor. I doubt you'll ever believe[the pic] I posted.
Your belief, is as strong as mine. Only difference is, I was there & believe differently.
I must say, I have plenty of field time & experience. I wouldn't ever claim to know the "real truth" of anything.
The only "real" truth I know is, God exists. Haven't seen him. But met his Son, who spoke to me in a vision. His Holy Spirit, took over my body on April 14, 05. A day, I'll never forget.
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on January 13, 2006, 07:18 PM:
I read an article by Odon Corr awhile back...he said certain coyotes never show themselves during daylight hours..they not only stay in heavy cover but actually spend their days underground..would they be using old dens?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 13, 2006, 07:26 PM:
Wiley,
Did you read, I rough measured the opening with my boot? Why would a coyote, widen out another animals den. Just to hunker in it, during a snow storm?
I've never stated, [anywhere, ever], that they[coyotes] den-up all Winter. Only during harsh weather, is all.
Badger den....hmmmm, suppose the Badger, didn't mind the company?
As for Fox. The only kind around here, are a
few Reds. As well as a few Grey's. The Greys, stay tight to the little timber, we have.
A Red doesn't last long around my hunt area. Coyotes wipe'em out quickly. I've only seen 1-Red in my roughly 24square mile hunt area. In quiet a few yrs. The only one I've seen, was useing that ditch culvert for the last 2-Winters. In that other pic.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 13, 2006, 08:29 PM:
Rich,
If what you saw was TRULY a "Denning Bitch" on Dec. 8, she would have had pups on Feb. 11th. The Earliest coyote den that anyone I have talked to in SD knows of is the first week in March. Not saying I don't believe you. Just stating my own observations and those of many other ADC men with many years experience.
Again, I ask, how many coyotes do you see using dens in the middle of the winter?
The exception does not make the rule.
2 Dogs,
Lets assume there is coyote tracks on the mound. What proof do you have that a coyote occupied the hole? Unless you saw a coyote leave that hole, you are speculating. Coyotes investigate badger diggings all the time. Just because you saw coyote tracks on the mound does not mean that a coyote occupied the hole during a blizzard. Coyotes continually investigate fresh holes.
I'm telling you that it is damn rare for a coyote to crawl in a hole in the winter time unless they have severe mange or are being chased.
If you have a lot of mange in your country, than it's possible.
Rob: "I read an article by Odon Corr awhile back...he said certain coyotes never show themselves during daylight hours..they not only stay in heavy cover but actually spend their days underground..would they be using old dens?"
"CERTAIN" coyotes! A rare coyote indeed. The exception does not make the rule.
~SH~
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 13, 2006, 08:41 PM:
Speaking of mange Wiley E... Nick and I saw 4 nasty mangy coyotes last winter when it was below zero with snow on the ground and blowing 20+ that had dug into some stacked square alfalfa bales and had made a network of tunnels in there and were living in there or at least temporarily. I thought that was unique, we called it the coyote hotel.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 13, 2006, 09:09 PM:
Now, that I have heard of, Jeremy. Don't see why they wouldn't do that, as well as seek shelter in out building, etc.
Good hunting. LB
edit: As far as completely nocturnal coyotes, absolutely. Underground during the day I don't know about that part. Depends on how they are presured.
[ January 13, 2006, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 14, 2006, 03:02 AM:
shot a coyote one winter that had been sleeping with my sows in an old out bldg. smelled like hogs and had bedding on him.Was mangy and totally in distress.
Also have come to beleive there are some old females that may rarely come out of the deep cover into the open.May be predomoinantly nocturnal ?Due to the fact some have been the oldest I have ever seen. Short worn canines,loose hide,lack of stamina and significant body shrink.It might explain why at times I go for years killing numerous coytes in a specific area.Once I kill a female of this nature often I do no longer see or kill the numbers in that area.
[ January 14, 2006, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: smoke em ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 14, 2006, 04:02 AM:
Wiley,
I'm not an "ADC" person. I guess what I see, doesn't exist. Perhaps if I were, an "ADC" person. Then I would of learned something new about coyotes. Useing dens, during harsh weather.
These tracks also went down & back out of this coyote den.
---------------------
I hunt quite a bit. I like it when it's very cold, windy, Sunny, wind from the North. This Winter, one day the temp dropped well below zero & snowed.
The wind was howling from the NorWest, all night & into the next day. I got in my area, around 0800. I hunted & hunted...no coyotes. Went to one last area, a very high hill. Sat there on that hill glassing.
Suddenly a coyote pokes his head up & out from under the crusted new snow. He weathered out this nasty storm, all night. Out in the open...A rarity around here.
Please, answer my previous questions.
edited; side note...Wiley tell me "exactly" what a coyote den will look like. As you seem to have the answer, thanks.
[ January 14, 2006, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 14, 2006, 07:48 AM:
I just love it when a plan comes together.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 14, 2006, 07:55 AM:
2 dogs,
You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that you didn't see what you think you saw. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it's rare.
I'm not saying that it's impossible for a healthy coyote to stay underground. If it was a mangy coyote, it would be very probable. I'm just saying it's rare. That's all I'm saying.
Working as an ADC agent doesn't mean a person has all the answers. What it means is that you are working with 18 other ADC agents and 2 pilots that chase coyotes virtually every day of the year and you share experiences and observations. That is a lot of experiences and a lot of observations. Anyone of them will tell you that a coyote using a den in the winter is a rarity unless it's mangy. Mange changes the game.
I'm QUESTIONING what you saw. I'm not saying you didn't see it. If you are sure that coyote tracks went into and out of the hole, then who am I to argue? If it wasn't a mangy coyote, it was indeed rare. You don't know whether the coyote that used that hole was mangy or not.
2 dogs: "Wiley tell me "exactly" what a coyote den will look like. As you seem to have the answer, thanks."
When a female coyote gets ready to have pups in the spring (April), she will start cleaning out a number of different abandoned badger holes in the area she plans to den or she will dig her own holes. Most are single entrance holes that run back into a cutbank or a weedy fenceline somewhere. They are usually holes about 10" wide and about 15" tall. Since coyotes generally regurgitate their food back at the den for the pups, you will seldom find much bones, feathers, etc at the den until the pups start gathering these toys. Both the male and female coyotes usually feed on a carcass then regurgitate this food from their stomachs back at the den. If the coyotes feel the den is threatened, they will move the pups to another one of their "clean out" holes. The presence of pups is usually determined by the packed down grass around the den and packed down trails leading to the den. If you get near the den and leave you scent, many times she will move the pups. Once the pups are big enough to be outside the hole, they start dragging back toys such as bones, wings, shotgun shells, plastic pop bottles, etc. Anything to play with. People who see this mistake it for what the adults brought back to the den. It is rare to see an adult coyote packing a carcass back to the den because they usually take a feed and regurgitate.
In the winter months there is no such thing as a coyote den because "MOST" coyotes don't stay in dens unless they are pressured or mangy.
2 dogs: "Why would a coyote, widen out another animals den. Just to hunker in it, during a snow storm?"
He wouldn't but he's not going to go down a hole that's too tight.
Why would a coyote go down a tight hole when he can hunker down under a snowbank and stay just as warm?
Again, I'm not saying you didn't see what you think you saw, I'm simply stating that it's rare.
I continually have landowners tell me in the winter time that they found a coyote den. When I go look, it's a coyote that investigated a badger hole. That's why I am questioning you to make sure of what you saw.
I believe it's important that readers understand that coyotes seldom use holes in the wintertime. What you found is the exception, not the rule.
It is more common to find them in culverts and trickle tubes in stock dams. Why? SIZE! Most holes are too small. I also remember tracking a coyote that finally went into a beaver hole in the creek bank. Why? SIZE! Culverts and beaver holes are larger holes and more accomodating to a coyote.
Any other questions?
Jeremy,
What you saw is very normal for mangy coyotes. It is quite common for ranchers in this country to remove a hay bale from their pile and have a dead mangy coyote drop out. Mangy coyotes also seek refuge in buildings.
~SH~
[ January 14, 2006, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 14, 2006, 08:50 AM:
Scott, pups were born in these dens about the middle of April and raised by three adults, two females and a male. I called her segment "Denning Bitch" because she exhibited classic denning behavior. She dug or cleaned out three dens within 10 feet of each other, only 150 yards from a main highway, facing NW on a slope clearly visible from the hilltop to the west. The fresh dirt outside and inside all three dens was covered with coyote tracks only. Hair scrapes on the sides. This was Dec.8
We set up on the slope 30 yards from the den to the south. Wind was blowing stiff, east to west, variable. I misted the area. Robb began blowing bird and rodent combos and she popped up right next to him immediately. We began the standard howl, distress combos and she ran to the downwind, constantly looking us over and looking to the dens. It took her a few frantic minutes to make it to the dens. She checked them out and then ran downwind of us and began barking and threat-howling. She spent 22 minutes in front of us apparently trying to lure us south, away from the dens. No other coyotes showed. I went back in Feb. and the dens were still covered with fresh tracks. Misted and howled in two adults. Left them alone until June, spent half the morning on the west hilltop and caught glimpses of puppies down in the wash. Three adults. Went back July 1st and videoed four puppies on the hillsides, called in three adults but scared the crap out of the puppies. Videoed the dens again. The wash below the dens was devoid of vegetation and cluttered with garbage of all kinds. Looked as bad as Tyler's room. Went back in august and the dens were abandoned. All of this is normal, except her behavior in Dec. You will see this on the video.
Don't know what motivated her. Possibly mating season kicked in territorial instincts. Possibly an early hormone rush. Don't know. It was unusual behavior for that time of year.
What are your thoughts?
[ January 14, 2006, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2006, 09:26 AM:
There is all kinds of coyote behavior that doesn't fit with established norms.
I am still scratching my head over a pup coyote that my son shot within a quarter mile of an 1ndian village...in January.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 14, 2006, 09:28 AM:
Rich Higgins,
About the time we think we have the coyote all figured out, they do something to make us look like a fool.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 14, 2006, 02:53 PM:
Jeremy,
One of my favorites is in the real cold months when you find mangey coyotes burrowing into silage pits where the fermenting ensilage is generating heat. It's funnier than heck to see one flopping around trying to get out of that payloader bucket. Guess that's better than being fed thru the feed wagon.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 15, 2006, 05:52 AM:
Wiley,
Let's re-cap, eh.
I post a pic of a coyote den[in a crop field...duh] . That was used temporarily by a coyote[s], hunkering out a snow storm.
Next thing, I read is you come along. To correct me of what I actually seen. [We don't want to confuse the "un-educated, no do we ].
Then you commence to state, it's a Badger Den, LOL! that's a good one.
Early on, I stated what I seen. ie;[Read the 1st page again, slowly]. Apparently, you [chose] to disregard that info
Then you go from a Badger den, to a Fox den....Hmmmm . Really, now what is it LOL!...How intersting, your opinion quickly changed.
Then you go from that...To the ole, stand-by. WelllLLLLllll, let's see..."Rarity, not the norm" [Oh, really!]. The coyote, must be manged or has been pursued . Give me a break, LOL!
I've hunted, predators in Iowa for 41 yrs now. I know a little, about whats going on.
Here you come, to set the record. Or, I should say...[me] straight. Boy, that's a good one.
I suggest, you stick to educating some "Green-horn" of your knowledge.
BTW, Please! don't delete...your previous post's. For [all] to re-read & come to "Their own opinions"
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2006, 07:13 AM:
That first photo at beginning of this thread keeps drawing me back to look at it again. My best guess is that there was some little critter down in that hole that a fox or coyote tried to dig out of there. From size of the fresh dirt pattern, I would say that the predator was digging for quite some time.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 15, 2006, 07:46 AM:
Leonard, when you told me about taking the puppie in January it kinda bonked my brain. The ladies are monestral. Estrus begins in February and most females breed within a month. In Ca., Az. and Or. females bred over a two month period which is why we see half grown pups as late as Sept. here.
Dr. Gier conducted a study and over a seven year period determined that Feb. 2 was the earliest ovulation time and March 26 as the latest. The ladies are receptive for only about 4 days at that time.
Subsequently the males are fertile only about 4 months of the year, with spermatogenesis beginning about the end of Oct., assuring that the boys are perky and potent when the ladies are ready.
In view of that you can see that a coyote puppie in Jan. is truly an anomaly.
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 15, 2006, 08:05 AM:
I have always felt a coytoe was a hole claimer and cleaner. They really do not have the equipment and shape to start from scratch. Look at a badger,mole,gopher.Diggers not runners.Coyotes are runners not diggers.If coyotes were burrowers and diggers they would have evolved into a whole different animal.
I did notice early on the the post 2dogs repeatedly call this a den.That's where I got confused as to what he beleived the current situation to be as to frequency of use and current habitation of the hole became an issue.I quess I consider a den a"den" when it is ccurrently and continually inhabited over a period of time.Otherwise I would just consider the coyote to be holed up in an old badger hol.(temporary).I have known hunters who thing every badger hole is a coyote or fox den.Was hoping 2dogs was not headed in that direction.(Don't think he was)
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 15, 2006, 08:31 AM:
smoke em,
You'd think correctly. Again, as I previously have stated on this site[& this thread]. They prefer to "take over" den's as compared to dig their own.
I don't doubt whatsoever, they can dig their own. When they want.
-------------------------
Red Fox & Badger & [on occasion]coyote, in "my hunt area's". Frequently will dig their den's [anywhere] out in a row crop field.
Farmer's will, disc/plant right over them[dens]. Sometimes, they'll stuff them with rocks/boulders.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2006, 08:38 AM:
Seems to me that the best and most reliable way of labeling a "hole" or a "den" is to identify the occupents.
Who "started" the hole or den is not as important as who is using it or was most recently using it.
My guess is that badgers "start" a lot of holes or dens.
Looking at the first pictures, the location doesn't fit my concept of coyote den. Okay, we have a couple observers that say they have seen coyotes raise a family in a vacant lot or an open field, which indicates that it is possible, but it doesn't fit my generalized (and pink hazy)concept.
I just don't see where we will prove anything here, but it's fun to talk about it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 15, 2006, 09:55 AM:
It does prove that you can't use the cookie cutter approach to define anything coyote. Nothing is black and white.
For instance I have read or heard that you will never see a coyote hit while crossing a road. They are too smart. That one was in Sports Afield years ago. RK is common here. Danny contributed a clip of a coyote being hit by a truck and tossed up onto a snowbank for my video.
You can't call a coyote to your vehicle. Bob Davis contributed a clip of him calling a coyote INTO his vehicle that appeared in Jay's video.
You will never see puppies after Sept. How much credence do you give that one , Leonard?
Coyotes do not use dens or holes in the ground during the winter.
As Scott says there are exceptions to every rule.
Coyotes are masters of exception.
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 15, 2006, 10:04 AM:
2dogs , I have observed badgers begin a hole and finish and occupy, Have you seen coyotes do this, I have not.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2006, 10:12 AM:
I hit a coyote once, after years of scratching my head as to why I spent so much time on the road, and it had never happened. As Kid Shaleen said in Cat Balleu, "it felt so good"!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 15, 2006, 10:13 AM:
Smoke 'em,
You are exactly right. A "den" usually refers to where a coyote is spending a considerable amount of time. As anyone can see, this hole is round, not oval indicating it was not dug by a coyote or cleaned out by a coyote. The question is, was it occupied by a coyote or simply investigated by a coyote.
2 dogs: "Let's re-cap, eh."
Sure, why not?
2 dogs: "I post a pic of a coyote den[in a crop field...duh] . That was used temporarily by a coyote[s], hunkering out a snow storm."
No, you posted a picture of a badger hole in the winter in a crop field that may have been investigated by coyotes and possibly even used by a coyote, which could have been mangy, to weather out a storm. I stated that holes are seldom used by healthy coyotes in the wintertime and that is a fact.
2 dogs: "Next thing, I read is you come along. To correct me of what I actually seen. [We don't want to confuse the "un-educated, no do we ]."
No, I simply came along to QUESTION what you THINK you saw. Unless you actually saw a healthy coyote run from that hole or can absolutely confirm tracks entering and leaving this ROUND hole, it could have been a badger hole that was investigated by coyotes.
2 dogs: "Then you commence to state, it's a Badger Den, LOL! that's a good one."
I'm glad you find the humor in it. The hole you pictured was dug by a badger, not a coyote.
2 dogs: "Early on, I stated what I seen. ie;[Read the 1st page again, slowly]. Apparently, you [chose] to disregard that info"
No, early on you stated what you thought you saw which was a coyote "den" where a coyote hunkered down to weather out a storm. I questioned whether or not this was a badger hole that had simply been investigated by coyotes as opposed to being occupied by coyotes in the winter. I also stated that healthy coyotes rarely use holes in the winter which is a fact.
2 dogs: "Then you go from a Badger den, to a Fox den....Hmmmm . Really, now what is it LOL!...How intersting, your opinion quickly changed."
The hole was obviously dug by a badger. Since you were so convinced that it was occupied due to the tracks on the mound as compared to simply being investigated, I questioned whether it would have been occupied by red foxes since it is rare for a healthy coyote to occupy a hole in the winter time. Since you admitted that both coyotes and fox occupy your area, it would be very easy to assume that a badger dug the hole, a fox used the hole, and a coyote investigated it. That situation would be as normal as the sunrise.
2 dogs: "Then you go from that...To the ole, stand-by. WelllLLLLllll, let's see..."Rarity, not the norm" [Oh, really!]. The coyote, must be manged or has been pursued . Give me a break, LOL!"
It is a cold hard fact that it is a rarity for a healthy coyote to use a hole in the winter time unless they were pursued.
I also stated that it is quite common for mangy coyotes to use holes and hay bales because they don't have enough hair to stay warm out in the elements. Since you didn't see this coyote run from the hole, if the coyote in fact stayed in it as opposed to simply investigating it, he could have very well been mangy.
2 dogs: "I've hunted, predators in Iowa for 41 yrs now. I know a little, about whats going on."
That's good. Then you should know enough about coyote behavior to know that a healthy coyote rarely uses a hole during the winter time unless mangey or pursued.
2 dogs: "Here you come, to set the record. Or, I should say...[me] straight. Boy, that's a good one."
If, with your 41 years of experience, you realize that a healthy coyote seldom uses a hole in the winter, there is nothing to set straight.
2 dogs: "I suggest, you stick to educating some "Green-horn" of your knowledge."
I'll take that under advisement. Thanks for the tip.
2 dogs: "BTW, Please! don't delete...your previous post's. For [all] to re-read & come to "Their own opinions"
I have no reason to edit my posts. I never said anything that wasn't true.
Rich Higgins,
My above response to you was incorrect. It should have read:
The Earliest coyote den that anyone I have talked to in SD knows of is the last week in March. Not the first week in March. The earliest den I ever took myself was born on the first week of April.
It's puzzling that the bitch you saw was cleaning out holes on Dec. 8th, when she was not even bred yet. You said she had pups in the middle of April which meant that she was bred just before the middle of February which is completely normal. Most of the bitches in this area do not start cleaning out holes until mid March.
~SH~
[ January 15, 2006, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 15, 2006, 11:07 AM:
2dogs,please answer my last post before you start your self defense.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 15, 2006, 11:32 AM:
Wiley,
Your killing me with "your facts" Hey!, & don't try to drag your ADC Bud's into this discussion[for back-up] LOL!
Did you see "that" coyote den, get dug??? No! Your guessing. Hmmmm, I think you give yourself to much credit.
Please, take note; If I come across a den, I look at many things. Size, demensions, sign[you know, tracks going in/out of the hole]. Then I'll huff, the hole to see if a Red or Coyote had/has been in there. Or is/has occupied it.
Another funny thing. How could you tell "100% exactly" what size the opening was? You a photo-den-ologist, as well?...Houston we have a problem! LOL!
You had nothing to compare the den size with...= "guessing" I was there or just, perhaps I wasn't ooOOOoooh .
I'll draw ya a picture . You stated Iowa was no different than South Dakota. Oh, really...Thats a good one. Coyotes here when persued[my area] will, take a culvert, den or go to bay. BTW, their not even mangy.
Southern, Iowa...they'll do the same as well. Plus go into brush-piles[as they are a plenty, down South].
Lets get back, to the "fact" you were guessing as to what kind of den it was, [Badger, Fox, ] LOL!
Geeze, now your back to the "ole Badger" den theory, say WHYAT!. You spun yourself into your own "WEB" The ole...[I don't remember, what I said previously, routine ]& are trying to claw your way out. VERY FUNNY.
Let's move onto the "supposed ditch culvert" with the "supposed Red Fox tracks", going in/out picture, eh.
This time, try to remember what you say. I'll be on stand-by.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 15, 2006, 11:38 AM:
I'm going out to Banning for the day. You guys keep the conversation pleasant, okay? Thanks, LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 15, 2006, 11:42 AM:
smoke em,
Why...You on the attack? LOL!
I don't hunt in the spring. I have seen a couple coyotes, digging on hillsides[terraces], many moons ago. Don't know whether they were digging a den or not. As I was driving down the road.
One farmer friend, told me last fall. He watched a pair of coyotes dig a den[2 springs ago]. They raised, 2-litters in there so far. I'll call him, to find exactly where it it. See about getting some pics.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 15, 2006, 11:44 AM:
10-4 Leonard. I grow weary
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 15, 2006, 12:11 PM:
Scott, puzzling yes. Wow, you've really mellowed since you used to beat me up on the boards.
2dogs, why don't you re-read Wiley E's post of Jan 14 at 07:55? All subsequent posts on that subject were unneccessary.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 15, 2006, 12:50 PM:
Rich,
Yah, this is boring me. So, I'm done with this thread.
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on January 15, 2006, 01:46 PM:
I’m having flash backs to a conversation that went on here a long while back about core areas. I learned a great deal from that exchange as well as this one. I have no reason to doubt 2dogs account of what he saw/smelled. I do not discount what Wiley has to say based on his experience and year round pursuit of coyotes. I have learned that there are exceptions to every rule when it comes to coyotes. Even with my comparatively lack of experience I have seen them and with the help of the members here have recognized them for what they were.
In my experience on the boards I have seen some coyote behavior passed off as “regional differences” like barking to stop a coyote might bring the opposite effect in some areas, and gun fire attracting coyotes in others.
2dogs, all Wiley has said is based on his experience in his area he believes that the coyote that occupied that hole was either mangy or had been pursued. I guess it is up to you and others to give other accounts of healthy coyotes living underground in the winter so we can pass it off as an exception to the rules, or regional differences. Please don’t take this as an attack. It is just a request for you not to take Wiley’s difference of opinion to heart. I could learn a great deal from both of you if you can both discuss the topic at hand.
In my experience the holes that I come across in the winter if there is fresh sign around it is usually a single set of tracks that approach the hole and turn toward it at the mouth and move on. However my experience has nothing to do with AZ, Iowa, or SD coyotes.
Rich where do you stand with your interpretation of what you have documented?
Could the round shape of 2dogs’ hole be accounted for by the ground being frozen thus making it difficult or impossible for the coyote to modify after he took up residency?
SH “Most of the bitches in this area do not start cleaning out holes until mid March.”
Could that be because the ground is frozen and they don’t have the option unlike Rich’s coyote?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 15, 2006, 02:21 PM:
"Rich where do you stand with your interpretation of what you have documented?
Could the round shape of 2dogs’ hole be accounted for by the ground being frozen thus making it difficult or impossible for the coyote to modify after he took up residency?"
________________________________
Bryan,
In one of 2dog's earlier posts, he states that he measured the hole with his boot, and the hole was actually quite a bit taller than it was wide. A badger hole will be wider than it is tall. Most badger holes are just holes where a badger dug out a little critter. Badger's will occupy one of their holes for a den, but not every badger hole is in fact a "den". I could be wrong, but I think I can see faint "dog-like" tracks in the dirt pattern and at bottom of the hole it looks like a narrow trough was dug out. All of the evidence points toward the hole being enlarged by a coyote in order to dig out a rabbit or something that had ran down the hole to escape. 2dogs stated that he could smell coyote odor in the hole also.
Edit--2dogs said "edited; I used my boot, size 12". To rough estimate the opening size of that den. Over 12" wide & 16" tall." Look at bottom of hole as seen in 2dogs second photo, and you can see where the narrow trough was dug out to allow entry of longer legged animal. I hope that I am making sense here.
[ January 15, 2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by smoke em (Member # 785) on January 15, 2006, 02:52 PM:
2dogs , I just suppose I have seen no coyotes i can remember spend any winter time in fields holes(dens)that I just have to be more convinced.Have not tried smelling the hole you are the only one I know of to claim that one.Must have a good nose.
You mentioned tracking to be not very effective or waste of time in your area.I have done so much tracking and seen the coyote show occasoinal interest in holes but always move on with out entering .I just would not want anyone new to get the impression that coyotes in holes is the norm in winter rather than a unusual exception.
Be aware you are not the only one who has done this for alot of years.It is not unsual for me to track coyotes 2 to 7 miles day after day or farther when I was younger. Occasionally I have tracked to dark and picked the track up again the next day and continued successfully. I probably don't know as much as you, but believe me when I say you there is a lot to be learned from dedicated tracking.
I ask you if you have seen these coyotes because I beleive what is seen.
Anyway regardless of all this contention I bet we would still have a great time hunting together.Like to hear from people who actually know something.Alot of these bbs are just guys repeating something heard or read.Lots of book learning with little practical experience.
I wanted to ask you how much time you have to spend hunting when conditions exist??
I do agree a coyote would holeup here for weather.
[ January 15, 2006, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: smoke em ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 15, 2006, 03:00 PM:
Rich, where do you stand with your interpretation of what you have documented?
I stand dazed and confused.
If you had a specific question I'll try to answer it.
I will answer the question that you posed to Wiley E because you compared my coyote to his.
Scott stated that the coyotes in his area don't begin cleaning out holes until mid=March and you aked if that was because the ground was frozen unlike my coyote which had that option.
By mid-march the breeding bitches that came into estrus about the middle of Feb. are at half term and are being dragged around by hormones and "nesting" or "denning" instincts, which is normal behavior. As I stated here and in the video Dec 8 is about 3 months ahead of the curve and is not "normal"
[ January 15, 2006, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on January 15, 2006, 05:33 PM:
Rich H. I may not have posed my question correctly but you answered it perfectly. Where you stated that this was not “normal”, Thanks.
Rich C. Your post made me go back and look at the picture with a more critical eye. I can see what you are talking about. Thanks.
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on January 16, 2006, 03:04 PM:
In a great wolf interest story- the remaining Teton wolf eluded capture by diving in a hole that was not known to have been used by these wolves as pups. When the group was first jumped, this wolf ran straight for a hillside ½ mile away and disappeared. After we processed the 2 captured wolves, it suddenly showed back up and traveled over the top of the hill. As the helicopter moved in for a shot, it ran nearly 1/4 mile full speed over and down the hill into the hole again. The old den was so deep that Bangs couldn’t touch the wolf despite reaching in as far as he could with a 6-foot jab stick. It was too narrow for a person to crawl in. This is an interesting observation because the startled wolf apparently made a conscious decision to run to this very den when the helicopter first arrived. None of these wolves had been darted from a helicopter before. Tracks indicted the den had not been recently visited by wolves so this wolf just apparently remembered its location. Secondly this event was noteworthy because the wolf went into the den twice from some distance away and quickly recognized this den provided safety from aerial pursuit. There are occasional stories of wolves holding up in their old familiar dens, in shallow log jams or snow caves during aerial capture operations, but this was the first instance any of us had heard about where a wolf ran to a predetermined but marginally familiar hiding place.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 16, 2006, 04:31 PM:
Damn, Rob. That's an interesting story from several angles. Thanks.
Good hunting. LB
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