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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 31, 2005, 05:53 AM:
Here's my take on it;
I've never used it stalk hunting Red Fox & Coyotes. I always used terrain & the wind.
Calling; Started that a little over 2yrs ago. I'm well versed on C & RF. What I needed was some "instructional help" with useing hand calls, duh, LOL!
Anyway, I bought Randy Anderson's, "CALLING ALL COYOTE'S" Watched it over & over to pick up any info offered.
Purchased some "Red Fox urine" [spray bottle" to aid me on single-man set-ups. Even purposely
stepped in "rank...cow-patties" for back-up, LOL!
Well...one day as I'm hunkered on a CRP hillside callin/panning Left to Right. I thought, who in the heck am I kidding ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
As I'm constantly emitting scent; Skin cells, breath, hair & B.O[vapors], LOL!
So I quit useing it.
--------------------
I've read on hear & over on PM as well as another site. Where folks say it "helps". Well....I don't doubt this, not entirely.
My theory on why it helps some & not others
Perhaps, some of these coyotes have never "scented" a human.
Some coyote's may not relate human scent, as a danger.
Some of these coyotes, are territorial, or overly curious.
Some may be so hungry, as to disregard any human scent @ that particular time.
ect, ect,ect.
----------
Read on a site, recently, where the lowest air sample of a combustible part, was 1-ppt [1 part per trillion, in air]. Detected by a particular dog tested. While in an enclosed air-chamber.
Some of you may have read, about "dog's" detecting medical problems [inside or on human's].
I've also read, that "misting or cover-scent" will assist in holding a coyote a little longer, on stand. I don't doubt that.
But is it for "every" coyote . Thats the part I can't buy into ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ June 08, 2006, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 09:01 AM:
Twodogs, the frustrating part is that in the title of your post, you have already missed the concept.
Don't feel too bad about that, since every time someone opens their mouth criticizing "misting" they display a fundamental lack of understanding about hte whole subject. It's actually a trap. When they say it won't work every time, or they have a better, "lighter" method of stopping the animal before he gets down wind, they have proved to everybody that they just don't get it.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 31, 2005, 09:28 AM:
Leonard,
LOL! I don't feel bad. You evaded your true reply/opinion. Your reply is pretty evasive, ie;[read between the lines ] answer.
For God's sakes...Don't spill the beans. Rather than being somewhat elusive. Explain your point of view.
If I "truely" don't understand. Then enlighten me.
I don't wish to play games, nor inflict irritation.
I'm looking for "points of view". Not banter, or snatch the pebble from my hand, oh young one] ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I believe you know me [some] @ this point. As I'm a pretty open guy. Yet, I know little of you
...Other than reading between the lines.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 09:50 AM:
Huh? My life is an open book, my friend. You got an answer. The answer has value. I did not launch into a step by step explanation because I have done so many times and I don't have the burning desire, this morning.
Misting works, prove it for yourself, or debate it on theory. As a stalker, I can't really see the value for your style of hunting. As a caller that makes stands, and has seen what can happen if a coyote gets downwind, you might start to appreciate a method that will give you a few of those animals.
That's another clue that those big name (PM) "evaluators" don't get it. They say: "It works sometimes, and it fails, sometimes; and it isn't 100%"
Well, what do you know? A method that isn't 100% on coyotes? Must be worthless? If you kill a lost coyote, that's worthless?
Yes, it's worthless if you don't understand how to use it.
Good hunting. LB
edit: quote:
I always used terrain & the wind.
Where did you get the idea that "misting" forces you to ignore terrain and the wind? Think about it for a minute.
Misting and "cover scent" don't belong in the same sentence, conceptually.
[ December 31, 2005, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 31, 2005, 10:16 AM:
Leonard,
You could've said that in the begining.
Stalking; for me is as calling is for you. Matching my wits against a worthy animal. Obviously, it's a "reverse application" I hunt them.
Never implied, that misting takes the place of the wind.
Franky, If I bothered you. You didn't have to respond. As this post, was meant for anyone.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 31, 2005, 11:55 AM:
Let me see if I can explain it for you.
First off, when it comes to cover scents for coyotes, or most other animals, There is no such thing. Cover scents for coyotes are just some slickster's way of parting a desperate hunter from his hard earned cash.
Most all of have seen a coyote or two who came in on the run, and kept going for the down wind side, never offering a good shot. And we all know that as soon as he hits our scent being blown down wind, he is going to put it in high gear and get the hell gone.
This is where misting comes into play. The coyote is still going to smell the hunter on the wind, but he is also going to smell those other odors. It causes a sensory overload and instead of hauling ass, he stops for just a second or two to double check those friendly odors in the air.
Those extra two seconds of a stopped coyote, might just be the only good shot you will get of him.
Misting doesn't hide your scent, it causes confusion to the coyote, giving you a chance to take a shot before he runs again.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 31, 2005, 02:36 PM:
I had suspected that may be the jist of the misting secret, I`ve used that technique on deer in the past
& found that it can buy you a few extra moments for a shot if you were hunting with a rifle. I stumbled onto it mostly by accident & cause nobody said It couldn`t be done. The real problem I have now is....who should I pay homagae to for that bit of info?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 31, 2005, 04:47 PM:
Thanks Tim, thats what I thought. Just wanted to hear others opinion's on the matter.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 31, 2005, 05:12 PM:
Tim,
Good explanation.
JD,
I don't know who you give credit to, but for most of us, it would be Leonard. I've never heard him say who told him about it, if anyone ever did. Tell us Leonard, where'd you get the idea?
All in all, a whole lotta guys read a little about misting, then somewhere between the second and third words in the first paragraph, their preconceived notion of why it won't fit their scenario comes bubbling to the top and they become adamantly opposed to anything new. Like mentioned above, its use seems to come with the presumption that you hold no regard for wind or terrain, and that you totally disregard any effort on your part to keep them from going downwind. Nothing cold be further from the truth. You call with just as much caution and concern as you always have. You just have (under the right circumstances) one more tool at your disposal for those rare instances where the coyotes dares to do the opposite of what you expect them to do. (Said totally with tongue in cheek.) Yeah, I know that there are those that can influence and direct coyotes to come from a specific direction and that they almost always do exactly what they are expected to do. (said sarcastically) Those guys don't need it. Some of us have tried it. Some of us like the results we've seen. Some of us use it where applicable, kinda like howling, decoys, camouflage, sitting still, and paying attention to the wind.
Speaking of howling, there was undoubtedly a time when a caller like Bill Austin saw the merit of using howling to bring in coyotes, it worked, he dared tell someone about it, and they promptly told him he was full of shit. Go figure. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ December 31, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 06:00 PM:
My partner got a tip from some of the veterans in the club, back in the mid sixties, when we were still green, had not ever won a hunt. It was something the more experienced members progressed to, as they matured as hunters; especially useful for night hunting.
When I started farting around on the Internet, I quickly realized that nobody else, besides our local clubs, had ever even heard of it? Well, I have been on a campaign ever since to educate the masses, damned near single handedly, absorbing the scorn and abuse.
I just shake my head when I get these old sage's, telling me how "you just can't fool a coyote's nose". The less they know about the subject, the more convinced they become that it can't work. They can't even pay attention long enough for an explanation, they already know it won't work, intuitively. Otherwise intelligent people, going to great lengths, telling me that I'm full of $hit.
I have never seen a concept that is so basic, so simple, so easy to understand, and yet be so universally misunderstood. I won't go so far as to say people are stupid but they can sure be stubborn and dense. It takes a certain level of experience to understand the method. You have to actually know, and have experienced what normally happens, when you don't mist. With mist, (used properly) coyotes get very stupid, down wind.
That's all I can tell you, Lance. It has gotten to the point where I don't push it, at all. What do I care if somebody wants to argue that "up" is down? But, it is gratifying that a few people figure it out, occasionally.
That's about it. It's almost laughable, these guys earnestly explaining why they don't need it, it's too much trouble and it don't work. hahaha
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 31, 2005, 06:36 PM:
Using it where it`s applicable is the secret to any
calling technique, I`d never thought of using it for coyotes to get that extra moment or 2 to squeeze the trigger, go figure, you`d think I would of at least gave it a thought after I saw it work on a deer. I have at least one spot where it may be of some help, real tough area to get where I should be to play the wind properly due to property boundries & access but it`s a great place & if they`d stop for a moment or 2 downwind I`d kill a few more for sure. We`ll see.
Yea, your right, sometimes we hear the first 3 words of a conversation & THINK we already have all the answers, I suppose we`re all guilty of that at times, too bad really, maybe if we listened
more we`d learn more. I`ll admit that at first I was thinking along the lines of a cover scent but anyone who has any appreciable calling time in the field knows that don`t work.
Don`t sweat it Leonard, as Lance stated, Bill Austin was a dumbshit too.
I`ve tried all sorts of stuff before that didn`t make nearly as much sense as this & I make no apologies for being creative at times & SOME of those things actually helped for the moment. In fact if I thought by painting my ass purple & howling at the moon on the stroke of midnight would bring in a coyote...I`d go to the hardware store right now to get the paint, maybe Byron could put THAT in his next video.
Maybe I`ll be labeled as the next dumbshit for trying it but what the hell, I`ve been called worse & if it works like it did on that deer, I`ll be a happy dumbshit with another hide in the freezer.
Thanks Leonard, I`ll try it out next time it`s applicable.
btw....What exactly does one mist into the air to delay a coyote who is winding you?
[ December 31, 2005, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 31, 2005, 06:54 PM:
You are not talking to a wall with me Leonard.since you gave me that tip many moons ago,I have used the mist almost faithfully and it has definitely put more coyotes on my stretcher than without it.As you know I am a wind at my back kind of caller and the mist works great for my type of calling.In fact i just posted on the PM about it.So some of us do listen to alittle wisdom at least once in awhile.LOL ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 31, 2005, 06:59 PM:
JD,
Each guy seems to have his own favorite recipe. Leonard uses (I think) coyote and rabbit urine cut with water. I use coyote and red fox cut 1:5 pee:water. Higgins uses something entirely different and he may not even dillute his. They get better results than I do, but I've had some positive response with it - at least, enough to keep it in the toolbox.
Use a spray bottle. Rich uses a quart plant sprayer from ChinaMart. I buy mine in the haircare section at the store. ('Magine that!)The finer the mist, the better. Get you some put together and have your partner go about 40 feet upwind of you. Have him pump 4-5 good sprays in the air and wait to smell. Oh yeah, keep your mouth shut and take off your glasses. Bwahahahaha!!!!!
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 31, 2005, 07:12 PM:
I think I`ll pass on that little experiment. Thanks anyway.
I know wind & distance are factors but how much mist is enough on average & do you ever use it blind or only when you see one winding you. I guess what I mean is do you mist every now & again just for good measure or only when you have a mover in your sites.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 31, 2005, 07:31 PM:
Off the beaten path for a moment, Leonard. BTW thanks for your further input.
----------
Why would a person stalk, instead of call?
I don't believe or haven't heard of any other coyote stalkers on this site. Perhaps, that makes me the odd-ball out or the [Black sheep ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
] LOL!
So basically here it is;
I'll spot one, Triangulate their position. Note all hills, valleys, & structures[man made or natural], in a 360 degree radius of my target. Take in the wind/speed & direction. Make my plan.
I'll stalk in as if I were a coyote, coming to a call. Useing any & everything, available to conceal or diminish my location.
The best part, is when. I have accomplished my goal by getting up on them, unoticed. If I kill them or not, no big whoop. As I've already killed plenty & beaten them @ their own game.
Just as fun, is coming in [blind] during a stalk. Stalking in [blind], is done by useing land bearing markers only. Gathered during & from triangulation & a 360 degree view.
What is fun about that, is. When I top the last ridgeline. Their right in front of me, facing another direction
-----------------------
Getting back on subject.
I'm guessing I've made atleast 60 sets by now. Out of those = 9 or 10? single coyotes. All long range coyotes. Killed 3, rolled 1. I guess not to shabby for Iowa.
No doubt, I've given callin more thought, since I joined here.
Never gonna be in a [coyote calling contest], thats for sure, let alone make a video on it...LOL!
Posted by mifox (Member # 721) on December 31, 2005, 07:52 PM:
Well, I am older than dirt but very green at this subject of misting. I saw a bit of information about misting somehere and decided to give it a try. I mixed up some coyote and rabbit urines in an empty windex spray bottle. The stuff froze hard while in the bed of my truck. After I thawed it out and test sprayed, I discovered that the pump on the bottle had cracked because of freezing. Instead of spraying it dribbled wee-wee down on my hand. I won't go into what all I tried to get the smell off, but I lived with it for 2 days! My wife cusses like a sailor on a good day, and she invented a few new words for me about that odor.(grin) I am thinking about using rubber gloves next time, but I'd appreciate some more specifics on the kind of spray bottle you guys use. I already haul enough shi...stuff to fill a wheelbarrow when I call, so I'd like to keep it small. Thanks for any help for this old codger.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 08:31 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, mifox. Glad to have you on board.
Short learning curve on that issue, Amigo. Protect your scent bottle. You don't want it rolling around in the back of the truck. I don't have any trouble keeping a couple in my pockets, at all times. Of course, I use small micro mist bottles. The finer the spray, the further it floats in the wind.
As to how often I spray? Very often and it is a complete screw up to only begin to use it, when you see that you have an animal heading down wind, and you are unable to discourage him from doing it. You have already lost.
You must spray at least a couple times per minute, for the entire stand. All those bushes and rocks down wind must be coated with scent, or you are wasting your time. It is amazing how many ways these guys can screw up the whole concept! Sure to be followed by: "See, it don't work".
When your coyote walks into that wall of scent, it actually grabs him and won't let go. He has to stand there and blink and hesitate, and decide what he wants to do next. Sometimes, they do the impossible, they come in from down wind. You really have to see that a couple of times, to believe it!
Guys like Higgins, they play with the poor animal. A poor, confused animal that gets more confused the longer he "drinks" it all in. All in the name of more "footage". I only need about five seconds for an accurate shot.
For me, after having tried all the usual methods we all use for stopping a circling coyote; I accept the fact that he won't stop until he gets down wind. But, when he does, he will not run off, he will stop and face me, and I've seen it enough to be ready, gun up and waiting for a decent chip shot on an animal that 99% of the predator hunters will allow to get away, because they don't know how to play it!
To make matters worse, after educating the animal, they waste a couple of prayer shots at a retreating animal, in high gear. And, I suppose they firmly believe it's too much trouble to kill a standing coyote, straight down wind?
To each his own, but I don't get the arrogance? The doubters stoutly claim that it don't work.... and it stinks..... and it's too much trouble? Yada yada, yada! All the while passing it off as good advice. Expert advice, in fact. hahaha
Good hunting. LB
edit: I dare someone to cut and paste this response in that misting thread on PM.
[ December 31, 2005, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on December 31, 2005, 10:08 PM:
Now that helps fill in the blanks, Thanks Leonard. I know you`ve taken a load of crap over it but like I said before, don`t sweat it, just keep doing what you know works.
btw...you hadn`t ought to dare me like that.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 31, 2005, 10:48 PM:
Leonard, have you ever tried mixing a wee bit of gland lure into the mist formula?? Just a thought.
I also belive that misting has a place in deer & elk hunting. Magic bullet...no;....tool....yes.
In fact, I'll go out on a limb here and predict that in the next few years someone will market 'Elk Mist' as the NEW THING!!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2005, 11:34 PM:
Oops! I'll be danged! Somebody(?) went and did it? Well, we shall see if it's there in the morning.
As to mixing stuff. There is an endless number of ingredients that you can use. I like to keep it simple, rabbit urine with a small amount of coyote urine and I like to filter it and cut it 50% with water, that way the solids have less tendancy to clog the orifice in the mister.
Notice I always say mister, rather than sprayer. The droplets from a sprayer start hitting the ground within ten feet, and get all over Byron's scope lens. And, because of gravity, it is a large volume of mix, but it doesn't get way down wind as it does from a fine mister.
Actually, I have been known to use bottled clam juice when I can't get the urines, or just run out. It isn't as good, but works better than nothing, in a pinch, far from a supplier.
You have the Texans that can't keep from spraying themselves in the face. That's also a short learning curve, by the way. It's just like anything else, you need to watch the wind, partner! Hold the spray out to the side, not in front of you because there can be swrling eddies that brink it right back in your face, if the wind is at your back. Pretty simple, really.
But, I would not discount using caution and trying as much as possible not to breathe it. I have heard that it can cause lung problems, if you get enough of it. But, that's only the lame brains that get a dose of it. After a time or two, you become more careful.
You are bound to snag a few coyotes, if you use this technique properly. These are gift coyotes trucking downwind, and about to gallop into the sunset, never to be seen again, unless you throw that mist down range.
But, if you do, and learn when to take your shot, I guarantee you will kill more coyotes. California hunters have been doing this for forty years, it's about time the rest of the world caught on.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 05:06 AM:
Leonard,
Glad you opened your book. Ya know, as for passing or giving up "info" or lessons learned. I see it, "as were all in this hunt together".
Thats why I like sharing. I also see & understand, [Wiley E's] thoughts on his post.
I guess it boils down to a guy/gal's respect of their "Mentor". Heck...[I always hugged & kissed my Dad] after a hunt . He knew what it all meant .
Sharing to me is what these "sites" are all about. Someone always comes away more educated
----------------
I'm thinking of emtying, Ma's perfume bottle now, as my RF pee. Needs a new home
BTW, Randy Anderson...Thanks for showing me how to use a call
[ January 01, 2006, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 06:17 AM:
More thought on "misting mixture"...
Vapor density = Weight of a known[vapor emmitting] substance, compared to air. Air = 1.0.
If a known chemical has a "vapor density" "greater" than "1.0"...[or air]. It will,[vapors that is]. Travel along the ground & low lying areas.
If a known chemical[vapor], has a [vapor density]. Lighter than air[1.0]. It will rise up into the air.
If I recall correctly, Ammonia in urine. Is heavier than air. I'll check that out tomarrow in a Haz-Mat manual.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 06:40 AM:
Found this site, on urine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine
[ January 01, 2006, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by mifox (Member # 721) on January 01, 2006, 06:49 AM:
Very interesting and informative. I am still left wondering just what kind and size of bottle to use and where to get them. Having bottles small enough to fit in the pocket(without leaking) sounds like the ticket I want to nuy. From reading this thread I was using the WRONG type of bottle(windex SPRAY). So... please get as specific as you can about THE bottle I should have. And thank you very much.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 01, 2006, 02:40 PM:
2dogs,
We don't get the snow down here to make spot and stalk practical. Trying to pick out the brown outline of a sleeping coyote under a brown bush in the brown grass, is nearly impossible.
I prefer to put myself in an elevated position along a coyote travelway. I spot them walking past, hit them with the range finder and then shoot.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 04:09 PM:
10-4, Tim
Your last post, reminded me kinda[like the East vs. West coyote]. Of all the sage, timber & brush you other hunter's hunt in.
I'd probably never see a coyote come in, or just standing there . Interesting, how folks are accustomed to different environments.
My eye's are not the best anymore. But in my "prime" I could see & pick out a motionless coyote @ great distances....like a hawk.
All it would take, is just a sliver of their body. Now I have to use & figure in other signs, for confirmation.
To make a positive [I.D] of what I'm looking at. Speaking of the coyotes, that are "hunkered-in" that is.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 01, 2006, 06:33 PM:
The coyotes around me, like to meet up at water right at or just before, the crack of dawn. They then hunt for rodents on their way to their bedding areas. Bedding down between 10 and 11 most mornings.
I try to position myself along this route, where ever I can get the best visibility. Then I constantly glass the area until I spot one passing.
I probably only get a shot at every 4th or 5th coyote. It takes me a while to get them ranged and the scope adjusted.
On my best morning, just last year. I spotted 9 coyotes and a bobcat. ( I passed a shot on the cat, too much bullet ) I killed 3 coyotes, having to shoot one twice. I had a fourth one down, but by the time I walked out to where he was, I had lost the location and couldn't find him. I don't count a kill unless I touch the body.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 01, 2006, 07:47 PM:
2dogs,
I am not doing a good enough job as the black sheep here?
You my friend are neon orange, with purple polka dots, a racing stripe, and a tattoo of Calvin pissin' on a call. LMAO
I have to the one that is the most perplexed by what it is you do. (big giant HUH?)
Land access alone baffles me?
Leonard,
The concept of misting has never been lost on me... coyotes (and dogs) can pick out scents, down to the parts per million.
If I can put out BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of "parts", of something other than me, two things (at least) are definitely going to happen.
1. I am gonna be a lot harder to "find" in all them parts (not impossible but harder). Now I am a few red marbles in a truckload of white marbles, not in a hand full.
2. Having all them parts in one place, might be enough to overpower a coyote's natural reaction, and even might spark it's curiousity. Sometimes you'll go into a place that looks like a dive, because the food smells so damn good it overpowers your better judgement.
And that this is not just a momentary, blink of an eye, interuption of a coyote's ordinary thinking process.
Rich Higgins has shown that without killing them, a lot can be learned from coyotes, and that he can hold their attention, and get them to hold their position DIRECTLY DOWNWIND for impressive (to me) amounts of time.
Rich's "20 minute" experiment, with the misting and video camera, leads me to believe there might be a "counter-education" benefit to using mist that everyone could take advantage of.
Isn't that the basic jist of it?
I have said it before, and Mifox might be a good example too, guys like me would BUY a mister all ready to go, before I'd be likely to try and cobble something together.
And I usually ain't gonna buy anything I might be able to make myself.
When I do go to where there are more coyotes, to call, I'd like to add it to my tool box.
Krusty 
[ January 01, 2006, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 07:48 PM:
I've mentioned this before, perhaps. Some of the barriers Iowa coyote callers & hunters face in the fall are;
A lot of deer carcass's [field gutted or shot deer, not recovered]. Deer hunters around here. Hunt in large groups. A lot of lead in the air.
Pheasant hunter's, up the ying/yang. They'll bust at coyotes as well, as the deer hunters.
Small land sections, generally 1-square mile average. Also, on a low wind day. If I have my calling [hearing-aid] in. I use it for for howling response.
I can easily hear, useing my aid. A clear conversation 1/2 mile away[farmer's talking]. Beside's being half deaf myself, ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I'm sure coyotes, fare well on hearing around here. I believe their the 1st, who knows whats going on.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 01, 2006, 07:55 PM:
Krusty...Ok, you can have the title "Black Sheep". I'll be "Black Ram" LOL!
What I do, is keep going back for more
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