This is topic 50 # coyote with play by play pictures of kill. in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 22, 2005, 04:53 PM:
Rod Haydel has been working on a new open reed call and I've been helping with the testing as well as filming and instructional DVD that will come in a package with the call. We have been on a few hunts together using the call and decided to try and wrap up the filming this week.
I met Rod yesterday morning just before daybreak outside Bossier City, Louisiana and we headed out. We were to meet the ranchers hired hand at the gate at 7 am. When we got there, on time, we noticed the hired hands truck was already there, but he wasn't. We assumed he had just walked off but after Rod went and looked in it was obvious he was already hunting, by the empty gun case laying in the seat. We sat and waited for a few minutes and as it got daylight I noticed a coyote running from a tree line towards another tree line maybe 500-600 yards out. We deduced that the hired hand must be walking the woods from where he had came. Sure enough about 5 minutes later we see him comming out back towards his truck. We meet each other and off he goes to make his rounds.
Rod had hunted this place before but back then it was owned by another man. He had told me of this place before and had already told me of the success he had had at getting coyotes out of the group of trees that the hired hand had just pushed the coyote out of. With this first stand already ruined we decided to go back in a little further in the direction the coyote was pushed. On our first two stands we had no takers, but on the third stand things looked up quiet a bit.
About 3-4 minutes into the stand the first coyotes showed, but checked up at about 60-70 yards.
Rod promptly let her hold a 60 grain V-Max and down she went. DRT.
I immediately got back on the new call doing some Ki-Yi's. After a few seconds of Ki-Yi's I did a few more rabbit distress cries and then back to the Ki-Yi's. About a minute later number two shows up from the same direction, but instead of checking up he continues towards the down wind side
By doing so he gets some cows in the line of fire. We wait until he is clear of the cows.
I give him a WOOOF!! with my voice. He stops.
And Rod drops number 2. A few more steps and he would have been directly downwind.
I knew the second coyote was big but the closer I got the bigger he got. We weighed him when we got back on Rods UPS scales. 50.85#'s. The other coyote we didn't weigh but would eaisily weigh in the upper 30's.
Hope you enjoy the pictures and story. Also be on the lookout for this new call sometime after the first of the year. It is as good one :thumb:.
Thanks for the great hunt Rod.
Merry Christmas.
Byron :grin:
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 22, 2005, 04:55 PM:
Here is a couple more picture of the double.
Good shooting Rod :thumb:.
Merry Christmas and Good Hunting
Byron :grin
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 22, 2005, 05:16 PM:
Well that nukes the theory that NE coyotes go 50# because of grey wolf hybriding. The little red wolf that once inhabited the LA area wasn't that big, itself. Are coyotes mutating, or evolving? Genetically, is bigger better? In another 50 years will 40+# coyotes be common?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 22, 2005, 05:29 PM:
Nice big coyotes, Byron. Enjoyed the hunt & pics.
Merry Christmas, to you both.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 22, 2005, 05:39 PM:
Tom,
I've been telling about killing 50# coyotes since I've been on the internet (Only a couple of years). It seems that it is hard for some to believe, but I see a coyote or three every year that will hit the 50 # mark here in East Texas. When I first mentioned these coyotes I was questioned to the point I even questioned myself. I went as far as to buy scales for my truck for conformation. Since that time I've killed and weighed a bunch. For the record a mature male coyote in North East Texas and aparently North West Lousiana will weigh in the mid 40's, with some even topping 50.
Another point of contention that ammuses me is the willingness of some to believe that coyotes of this size aren't a true threat to cattle, espeially calves. Newborn calves are defenseless and very vulnerable to coyotes like this. I have seen first hand many "coyote killed" calves not to mention a few cows that were killed while giving birth. Coyotes are truly an adaptive animal. Nothing that they do would suprise me.
Byron ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ December 22, 2005, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 22, 2005, 06:00 PM:
It's too bad someone hasn't taken it upon themselves to use these predator hunting web sites for data collection. A "data center", so to speak. Reports like yours should be collected from around the nation and complied in a database. Parametric searches would reflect any trend in occurance, geography, and progression of these "super coyotes". We don't need no stinkin' Federally funded, tree huggin', biological survey committee. We could do it ourselves, if we could ever just get organized!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2005, 06:05 PM:
Yeah, but that's like herding cats....
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 22, 2005, 06:10 PM:
NASA,
This does not Nuke the theory of the Gray wolf in the NE at all. We have extremely large coyotes in this part of the country that weigh in the 60’s and even in the 70’s . There is a great book out that discusses the migration of the coyote and his travels back east (must buy)http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1551091119/qid=1135302357/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9594301-2324757?s=books&v=glance&n=283155. The
Red wolf is smaller, that’s why a monster in Texas is 50 and a monster in the NE is 60 or 70+. Biggest I have seen on a scale is 64 lbs.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 22, 2005, 06:11 PM:
(Leonard) And that's the general attitude that keeps it from ever happening. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ December 22, 2005, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 22, 2005, 06:22 PM:
Not to sure I understand please explain?????
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 22, 2005, 06:24 PM:
CBGC, then how do you explain the absense of "super coyote" reports from from places like Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Montana? These states have wolf populations too. I can't recall hearing of any 50# coyotes in Alaska, either. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 22, 2005, 06:55 PM:
Nasa,
I cant answer that questions about out west have not been there. Do ya get coyotes out there that weigh 60 + ??? I didn’t post to argue with ya, just stating my thoughts. Coyotes are coyotes but so are dogs, never seen a Dalmatian (west) as smart as a Golden Retriever (EAST) Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 22, 2005, 07:13 PM:
I've spoke to some farmers, whom have seen their dog playing with coyotes. As well as fighting coyotes.
My dad has seen a feral dog running with a coyote, here in central Ia. He seen another feral dog running with a pack of coyotes out in NE, circa mid 60's.
Biggest coyote I shot in 81, weighed 50lbs on a [certified]feed bag mechanical scale. He had x-tra long legs & a dark Blue mask ring around his eyes.
I've seen a lot bigger [>50lbs], canines in my area over the yrs. No doubt in my mind. That coyotes don't bend the ecology rule's @ times, when mating ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
.
Interesting to me.
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on December 22, 2005, 07:15 PM:
When the heck did you meet my wife's Dalmation? That's literally the stupidest, uncooth, 4 legged domestic I've had the displeasure to meet. Period.
p.s. Did I mention that I don't like the dog?
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 22, 2005, 07:18 PM:
No argument intended, just some stimulating thought. I was hoping you had some insight to share with us. Rich in AZ usually has good contributions for discussions like this. Your point makes one wonder why only pockets of size enhancement are occurring. Why the lack of consistency, when the basic elements of the (presumed) justification are mutually apparent?
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 22, 2005, 07:21 PM:
Yes I am saying Eastern coyotes are smarter???????
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 22, 2005, 07:23 PM:
I hunted coyotes in Alberta, Canada last October. Very cool experience. Easily the most beautiful coyotes I've ever seen. They looked huge but when you lifted them off the ground they were light as a feather compared to the way they look. Another thing I noticed was how much (for lack of a better word) finer boned they were. Even their facial features appeared finer. I've hunted coyotes in lots of places and each region seems to have coyotes with distictiveley different characteristics. Their all coyotes but seem to have evolved or adapted maybe to different circumstances. Texas alone has three seperate regions where the typical coyote is different. Their is almost a distict line where they change as well. South Texas coyotes are very small. A typical adult male will weigh about 25-30 pounds. The typical adult male West Texas and Panhandle coyotes will weigh about 35 to maybe 40 pounds. Where as you get East of Dallas and the typical adult male will weigh around fourty or so. I kill several a year in the mid forties here in North East Texas. Not only are they bigger but they are (for the lack of a better word) tougher constructed. They appear bigger boned and more muscular, where as the other "sub-species" appear more like "show dogs" these coyotes seem like "working dogs".
Tom,
I would like to some data like you mentioned. I don't think it would be that tough to do, but would require someone with enough time and desire to see it through. With the people as accessable as they are now, via the internet, you could easily select a few people in different regions to collect data as they go and turn it in to a central location. When enough data is gained just compile it.
Byron
[ December 22, 2005, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 22, 2005, 07:38 PM:
U have never huntened
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 22, 2005, 08:00 PM:
CBGC,
I'm not wanting to start an argument either but wish to point out my observations of coyotes for what it's worth. Coyotes in the West have been persecuted to such a degree for generation after generation, believe me when I say, they are every bit as sharp as an Eastern coyote. Their are several reasons more are killed in the West and none of them have anything to do with their intelegence. I have said before and will say again. Coyotes in the thicker more populated regions of the country simply have more cover to use, and are conditioned to move when the least amount of human activity exist (Night). Growing up in these conditions and adapting to them, make for a difficult animal to call for sure, but they are not any smarter by any measurable degree. They simply have the terrain, cover, and conditioning to make them more difficult to succefully call. You can take a Western coyote to the East coast and he will learn this inside of week, maybe less. Their is no more adaptable creature on the planet that I'm aware of. The Easten coyote is nothing more than a Western coyote that has adapted, simple as that. Learning how they have adapted is the first step in devising tactics that will work to get them in front of the gun. No different than learning the habits and traits of any populations of coyotes anywhere you wish to hunt them, even in the West. I've hunted puplic ground in the west that has plenty of coyotes and gone days without seeing one. Why? It is not because they are smarter than the ones on the private ranches only a few miles away, but because they adapted to their environment.
Coyotes are like men. Regardless of their intelegence, most can be tempted into doing stupid things.
Byron
[ December 22, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 22, 2005, 10:34 PM:
All you guys have a point. Some of the theories are just that, theories.
It is my belief that coyotes share a lot of common traits, regardless of where they live. Some claim that there are (like) fouteen distinct subspecies of coyote. I know that I have seen quite a few that were different, identifiably different and it has everything to do with location. I guess that some populations share common ground, that seems clear to some observers?
Why do coyotes grow bigger in some parts of the country? Who knows? But. I personally do not buy the wolf stuff, I don't care how many times it is thrown against the wall, it doesn't stick, for me.
Are there, or have there ever been hybreds? I suppose so, since I have seen a couple of examples that defied any other reasonable explanation. I'm more inclined to accept feral dog/coyote mixes than wolf, but I offer no more PROOF than the easterners that swear that their coyotes are half wolf. This is something you just have to believe, or not, and I choose not to believe. I frankly do not care what biologist with what kind of degree(?) tries to tell me about proving these things with DNA, I'm not convinced that it answers the question of why eastern coyotes look bigger and (to my eye) just LOOK different. And, they look different in a doggy way, not a wolfy way.
Sometimes, it boils down to reading convincing evidence, or word of mouth. Conventional wisdom is a well known and frequently wrong, source.
We begin this thread with a lot of cool pictures and no axe to grind, except the man shot a 50 pound coyote. That's all we got. Any other conversation is welcome, but I will tell you right now that nothing beyond these pictures is going to be proved, beyond the shadow of a doubt.
So, have fun, opinions welcome, but please keep the discussion cordial.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 23, 2005, 05:07 AM:
We started hunting Reds circa; Winter 62. I didn't start hunting with my Dad & his Bud's, until winter of 64. No coyotes spotted, during those yrs Winter snowfly.
Seen our first coyote, Winter 68. Within the next 10-12yrs. Is when we started seeing these large coyote-x's.
Makes me think, some bred with feral dogs or farm dogs. Because of lack of a coyote mate.
[ December 23, 2005, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 23, 2005, 06:20 AM:
Stimulating thought is very true, that’s why I enjoy these boards. Everyone has a chance to share their theories and thoughts. Byron summed it up in 1 sentence --> Coyotes are like men. Regardless of their intelligence (easterner spelled it correctly westerner spelled it wrong) tempted into doing stupid things! Also what U are saying is very true about the eastern coyote it did adapt to the conditions, this is why I am saying it is smarter. Byron I have great deal of respect for U and your knowledge on coyotes, but the eastern coyote is a different animal than the western coyote. Leonard I know U don’t agree with DNA theory, we have had this discussion before, but please buy Gerry Parker’s book (The Eastern Coyote The Story of Its Success), you will read it more than once.
Posted by Sue and Mark Nami (Member # 685) on December 23, 2005, 07:23 AM:
I read this debate on all the boards many times over and you'd think that Eastern coyotes had opposable dewclaws. I don't think bigger necessarily means smarter and I sure don't feel that skulking and hiding in thick timber makes coyotes smart either.
Let's say you have 3 scientists. One is a corn-fed 350# college graduate football player from Nebraska (the "N" on the helmit is for "Nowledge" you know). the second one is a San Francisco pro-gay advocate with tendencies favorable to PETA and the final is an inbred hillbilly circus clown. They all write papers on the intelligence of a coyote. Who you going to believe? And who the hell cares?
Taking an Eastern coyote doesn't turn a hunter into King Kong. The recipie is the same everywhere.
Hunter+Gun+Call+Coyote=PO'd Wife
The big problem with Easterners is they do their coyote shopping in all the wrong places. When I want peanuts I typically have more luck at a peanut farm rather than a zucchini farm. But HEY! That's just me.
There's lots of successful coyote hunters back east. I suggest you contact BM.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 23, 2005, 07:26 AM:
So......would coyotes from 'Red' states (that support gun rights & hunting) be smarter than coyotes from 'Blue' states (hand wringing liberals) ???
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 07:51 AM:
Geeze! Why didn't I think of that? Opposable dewclaws, of course! Explains everything! lol
Good hunting. LB
edit: they have coyote farms, back east?
[ December 23, 2005, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 08:14 AM:
It is just like this little gem, below. Scientists are frequently guilty of fraud, how are they going to get caught, what's the risk, when there is millions at stake, in grants. And, who knows where the money goes. Charlatans, snake oil salesmen! I'm supposed to believe these guys when they tell me all about wolf DNA in eastern coyotes?
quote:
Updated: 10:00 AM EST
Disgraced Stem-Cell Researcher Resigns From Post
University Says Scientist Faked 9 of 11 Results He Claimed to Create
By BO-MI LIM, AP
Jung Yeon-je, AP
Talking to reporters, Hwang Woo-suk apologizes for his actions.
News Interactive:
· Cultivating Embryonic Stem Cells
SEOUL, South Korea (Dec. 23) - South Korean researcher Hwang Woo-suk resigned from his university on Friday after the school said he fabricated stem-cell research
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 23, 2005, 09:50 AM:
So, I'm confused . Is the coyote Rod shot an Eatsern coyote or a Western coyote? Or is a coyote at all? Do I really care?
Are hillbilly rednecks like me any less intellegent than college educated rich kids?
Are kids raised on the streets any smarter than those that have been pampered?
I've guided many a hunter from back east and have a pretty good grasp on why these guy's don't kill many coyotes. Besides the fact that they don't have many coyotes and the fact that the terrain is not very conducive for calling. They just simply have very little knowlege of coyotes and their behavior. It tickles me when guys that have never hunted out west assume that the Western coyotes are dumber and that is why we're able to kill them in larger numbers. These same guys that have never hunted out West tell us we don't understand because we have never hunted back East. Can you have both ways? I have hunted both, and for the life of me can't tell the difference in their intelligence. Have I killed many coyotes in the East? No. But I'm smart enough to realize that there are many reasons, the least of which, has anything to do with their intelligence.
How do they assume they get smarter as you go East? Are they eating some type of brain food? It is simple common since that coyotes are tougher to call and kill in places where they spend larger amounts of time in close proximatey to man. The exception being in larger cities where they, for generations, have lived with little fear of man. They adapt.
Here is another flaw in the wolf/coyote theory. Wolves were killed nearly to the point of exstinction over a relatively short period of time. From this I would come to the conclusion they are easier to kill than a coyote. Coyotes have been aggresively pursued for lots of years through trapping, hunting, poison, and even airial gunning, but still seem to thrive. Mixing a wolf with a coyote would tend to make me think this would dumb down the breed and make it more vulnerable to the hunter. Not the opposite.
Ok, Now with all this said, and assuming the Eastern coyote is smarter. Just how much smarter can he be than a coyote under the same set of circumstances say in Washington state or any other state or region that has these same difficulties calling and killing coyotes.
Now for the last time. Their are places where it is easier to kill coyotes, but it has nothing to do with their brain power and all to do with PRESSURE, TERRAIN, and POPULATION. It's really quiet simple.
We have a few elk here in Texas so why do Texans go to Colorado and Wyoming to elk hunt. Are they dumber there? No it just make since to expect better results from the larger population offered there. This East VS. West thing is no different.
Byron
Posted by InjunJoe (Member # 658) on December 23, 2005, 09:57 AM:
To answer your question about if Rod shot a Eastern or Western coyote.
It is'nt either one.
Those are called Tweeners.
Or Tweenerdogs if you prefer.
[ December 23, 2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: InjunJoe ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 10:01 AM:
I don't know if Byron considers himself a hillbilly, or a southerner or what, but I like this line of reasoning.....
quote:
Here is another flaw in the wolf/coyote theory. Wolves were killed nearly to the point of exstinction over a relatively short period of time. From this I would come to the conclusion they are easier to kill than a coyote. Coyotes have been aggresively pursued for lots of years through trapping, hunting, poison, and even airial gunning, but still seem to thrive. Mixing a wolf with a coyote would tend to make me think this would dumb down the breed and make it more vulnerable to the hunter. Not the opposite.
Good hunting. LB
edit: or tweeneryotes
[ December 23, 2005, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 23, 2005, 10:25 AM:
Good one Byron.
This discussion begs the question:
Are coyotes more difficult to trap back East and do Eastern coyote trappers do anything different than, let's say, trappers in Iowa or Montana?
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 23, 2005, 10:58 AM:
Quote, "There's lots of successful coyote hunters back east. I suggest you contact BM."
LMFAO!! Is that Sue or Mark's sense of humor we're being treated to? Great reply. I just got busted screwing around on the net instead of working. I just had to laugh out loud!
Posted by RonDell (Member # 761) on December 23, 2005, 10:59 AM:
Byron,
I registered just to tell you that thiose pictures are great. When will the video be for sale?
Posted by Rod Haydel (Member # 762) on December 23, 2005, 11:07 AM:
"I'm not a smart man...but I no wat love IS." Killin those big suckers. This piece of property does seem to carry those genes though. Here is a photo of 2 shot about 5 years ago. You can see the ressemblance.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 23, 2005, 11:26 AM:
A neighbor of mine. He owned two "monster" sized German Shepherds. Different pups from different litters. When he picked both pups, he said the parents & all the pups. Were average sized dogs.
Anyways...At the age of 2yrs, both of these dogs. Grew to weigh, one at 130lbs the other one 135lbs. Very large Big-boned muscular canines.
I said, one day "Were your dogs, unusally large as pups?"
Answer, "No...just average".
He went on to say, that during the pup's first 2 year's, especially the 1st yr. He feed them both each a couple [family]cartons of "Cottage Cheese" daily. Huh!... .
He stated this [mega-dose] of "Calcium" & Vitamim D. During their 1st yr growth. Made all the difference ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
. He has seen their sibling pups, as adults...All of average size .
Perhaps, this may also figure into the scenario of monster coyotes. Nutrition wise that is.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 23, 2005, 11:47 AM:
That makes sense. They push nutrients for food plots on deer. Why not coyote food plots too?
Rod, I'll be looking you up to sign my book at the shot show.
Can you tell us what goodies you'll be introducing?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 11:58 AM:
That's unethical as hell. Feeding cottage cheese laced with HGH just so they yield more pounds at harvest, not including the flea collars. Feral coyotes?
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Rod Haydel. Glad to have you on board.
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, RonDell. Glad to have you on board, as well.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rod Haydel (Member # 762) on December 23, 2005, 12:37 PM:
Jay
I would be glad to sign your book. The new goodies I will have is a new Open Reed Howler. We will also offer it in a combo kit with a short instructional video that me and Byron are working on that will also include some short hunts to get the guys pumped up. The combo also comes with our GHC distress call.
The nutrition thing does make since as a matter of fact me and Byron were just talking about this.
Coyotes in our areas have plenty of food close at hand and do not have to travel far to get a meal. Also due to our relatively warm climate they do not burn these extra calories trying to stay warm.
Comparing these to dogs I have two labs that are litter mates both eat high protein performance type food. They both eat as if the are starving to death. The female I put on a diet early this fall she gets 3/4 cup of food a day to sustain her weight level. The male is the same size but must eat 5 cups to maintain his weight. Both get the same amount of exercise. It's just the way they metabolize food. If I let the female eat as much as the male I guarantee you she would be 15-20 lbs heavier than the male. Both are 7 years old which I suspect the coyote in question to be. I am getting this one mounted and saving the skull to verify the age.
Coyote Food Supplements!...SHHHH I can see it now. "Dont let that big Alpha Male kick sand in you face anymore..."
Posted by Rod Haydel (Member # 762) on December 23, 2005, 01:13 PM:
Okay here's the truth. There is this little old lady that I know that feeds a fresh pan of hotwater cornbread to the coyotes everynight laced with these supplements.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 23, 2005, 01:29 PM:
Wow! One coyote's eyes reflect whit, another reflects blue and the last one reflects red. It is common to have different coloring night hunting?
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 23, 2005, 01:44 PM:
Byron
Spent 10 years in southern CA did I hunt coyotes there no, did I call them yes. Toured all over the west when I was in the music industry, plenty of time off to call coyotes (had fishing license in 26 different states the one year), sorry I misled you before. This statement would be correct ---> I have never hunted and killed a coyote in the west.
Are college educated people more intelligent???? Are kids raised on the streets any smarter than those that have been pampered? I would say college educated people on average are better at certain things because they are educated. Kids raised in the street are street smarter. The two questions U posted have nothing to do with what I said, but figured I would answer them.
I am saying that they are different animals and one is a little sharper than the other. A coyote is a coyote and a dog is a dog, but is a Dalmatian as smart as a Golden Retriever???? Please answeer that.
I feel like a Steeler fan in Dallas right now because I think I am out numbered. So I am going to bug-out.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 02:14 PM:
Okay, CB~
You are entitled to your opinion. So is everyone else, and since this is not something put to a vote, your opinion carries just as much weight as mine....or Byron's.
Seems like you are drifting from the wolf DNA in eastern coyotes, and they are larger animals, to "eastern coyotes are smarter"? I am reasonably sure you have nothing to support that opinion as fact. But, since you feel outnumbered, I guess we might never know, for sure? Of course, what do I know, since the only eastern coyote I ever killed was in east Colorado. But, you could be right, he did seem a little smarter than western Colorado coyotes.
Actally, I think this conversation is amusing; why quit now?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2005, 02:22 PM:
Careful Leonard. The last time we got to talking about cow farmers, some guy named teabagger got his panties all in a twist, Rich had to clean the inside of his windshield, and the rest of you all got more of an education in new age verbage than what you were looking for. If they have 'em, I wanna know how deep tp plant 'em and how much water they need. Why hunt for them when I can home grow 'em out back.
Posted by InjunJoe (Member # 658) on December 23, 2005, 02:22 PM:
What do you mean, amusing?
Let me understand this cause, I don't know. Amusing like a clown, You are amused? This thread makes you laugh... It's here to ****** amuse you?
I couldn't resist. I apologise.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 02:31 PM:
Joe, did you throw all your empties out the window (as usual) on the drive back from three corners into ***** ?
Posted by Rod Haydel (Member # 762) on December 23, 2005, 02:34 PM:
I dont want to start a fight but this is just my opinion.
"Are college educated people more intelligent???? Are kids raised on the streets any smarter than those that have been pampered? I would say college educated people on average are better at certain things because they are educated. Kids raised in the street are street smarter. The two questions U posted have nothing to do with what I said, but figured I would answer them."
CBCC- If you believe the above then I would assume that these people are smart in their own surroundings based on where they were raised. Why would this not be the same on a coyote. Put them in a different environment and adjustments must be made to survive be it people or coyotes. Coyotes seem to overcome their surrondings very quick. It doesnt mean one is smarter than the other until you start defining specifics.
As far as Dalmations vs. Goldens overall Dalmations are pretty stupid based on my experience but this is apples to oranges they are two different species. I think I have a smart Lab since it will take hand signals I give to retrieve a duck. Does that mean it's smarter than a coyote? Define what's smart. Ever seen a coyote in your neck of the woods splattered on the side of the highway? HUMM! Now that is smart!
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 23, 2005, 02:55 PM:
Hmmmm, I'm still pondering the "Cottage Cheese" theory. Suppose the bigger coyotes, suckle earlier & longer . Than the [wee] ones
more milk please-dogs ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 23, 2005, 03:00 PM:
Geeezzzz...I am staying out of this one!!!!!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2005, 03:26 PM:
So Leonard, let me get this straight. You completely refute any form of DNA science because you can find a study on bogus stem cell research?
My son was 6 months old when I met my wife. After we got marrried, I adopted him. Between those two times, the state of Kansas was able to identify his biological father with 99.5% certainty and this may be flawed? He was specifically identified as THE father. Not just that his daddy was human, but that this one individual was his father. Yet, the same technology cannot be believed to identify that the sire of an individual could be of a different species than the dam. The offspring would carry both sets of genes, not just in the offspring's physical appearance (phenotype) but in its own genotypical make up as well.
I've seen studies that say that electrophoretic sampling does match some of the eastern coyotes with wolf lineage. Then again, I've seen another that produced negative results, so I don't know for a fact which is valid. With all due respect, your rejection of DNA technology reminds me of my dad's opinion of computers. He doesn't understand them, thus he wants nothing to do with them and considers the whole concept to be bogus but I understand them pretty well and can quantify the benefits they bring to my life. I guess I have to ask why you are so adamantly against the thought that coyotes could hybridize with wolves. What is your position on the proverbial coydog? Isn't X-breeding with one just as possible as with the other? Just curious.
For Byron - assuming that coyotes did cross up with wolves and you're theory that the offspring would have been dumbed down and, thus, more susceptible to hunting and eventual elimination - maybe we're looking at them from the wrong angle. Maybe rather than them being coywolves - dumbed down variants of their wolf ancestors, they're actually woyotes - souped up descendants of their coyote ancestors. That's why they're so damned tough to call. They're not "coyotes". They're "Woyotes"!
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 23, 2005, 03:42 PM:
Rod,
No fighting here either, just a good discussion that nobody will really ever know the answer to. It’s not apples to oranges, there are 20 (give or take a few) some sub species of coyotes across this country. I could get hit by a car tomorrow (might make some of U happy) but that doesn’t make me stupid?????? Before I give in someone has to prove my dog theory wrong. By the way I do hate the Cowboys and I am a Steeler fan.
Here are some definitions to smart
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-03,GGLD:en&q=define%3A+smart
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 03:59 PM:
quote:
I guess I have to ask why you are so adamantly against the thought that coyotes could hybridize with wolves. What is your position on the proverbial coydog? Isn't X-breeding with one just as possible as with the other? Just curious.
Lance, your education is getting in the way of your understanding. (cheap shot)
But, seriously. I'm afraid that you have not grasped my point. It is not that I reject everything about DNA. In fact, I understand it quite well. But, I will not allow "junk science" to pull the wool over my eyes, as has happened so many times, in the past. You know very well what I'm talking about.
Comparing the father's DNA, and matching it to his son is childs play. That's just connecting the dots, or lining up a bar code over an identical tranparency. Yeah, they are the same.
Now, you tell me what that has to do with comparing two completely different animals? That bar code will not line up, unless you start with a fifth of Jack Daniels, squint your eyes just right, cross your fingers and wish upon a star.
I submit that you could take a DNA sample from Lassie and an eastern coyote, and a western coyote; give the data to ten different lab techs and they couldn't agree, as to who's on first, to use a baseball analogy.
I will agree that it is very possible to convict a rapist based on physical evidence, (that's called a match), but that does not mean that I will give you a free pass when it comes to proving lineage and linkage of animals from the same "family" such as "canine", by reading what amounts to "tea leaves". Be careful of what you swallow whole, just because some PhD published a "study".
Here's another fraud we are learning about today. Just because it is not a direct link to DNA does not mean that it can't be used to show the duplicity rampant in the scientific community!
Updated: 09:25 AM EST
Origins of 'Cloned' Dog Now in Question
Is Snuppy a Scientific Breakthrough or a Fake?
By BURT HERMAN, AP
AP
The origins of Snuppy, an Afghan hound that researcher Hwang Woo-suk claimed to clone, are now in question.
SEOUL, South Korea (Dec. 23) - While South Korea's most famous scientist was resigning Friday in disgrace after his university said he faked stem cell research, one of his greatest purported breakthroughs was romping in the snow.
Snuppy, an Afghan hound that researcher Hwang Woo-suk said he cloned, was shown in photographs by South Korean media being led by a handler on a leash through the grounds of Seoul National University's animal hospital, where the dog is now kept.
Hwang unveiled Snuppy -- named for Seoul National University puppy -- in August, claiming to have created the world's first cloned dog. But like his other breakthroughs in stem-cell science, that assertion is now being questioned.
A university panel that had been investigating a May paper in the journal Science on Hwang's stem-cell research said Friday that he had fabricated those results and it was now investigating the claims of the cloned dog as well.
Blood samples related to Snuppy have been sent for DNA testing, the panel said Friday.
Although other animals have been cloned successfully before, applying the technique to a dog had been seen as significant because of the difficulties in working with canine eggs.
Hwang had said his workers used DNA of skin cells taken from the ear of a 3-year-old male Afghan hound to replace the nucleus of unfertilized eggs. Nearly 1,100 embryos were created and transferred to 123 surrogates, but only three pregnancies resulted, Hwang claimed in a paper published in the journal Nature.
Of those, there was one miscarried fetus and two puppies delivered by Caesarean section after 60 days. One died of pneumonia 22 days after birth -- leaving Snuppy as the sole survivor.
Hwang posed smiling with the dog in his arms when announcing his alleged achievement in August. The dog garnered worldwide fame, with U.S.-based Time magazine later naming it the "most amazing invention" of 2005.
American scientist Gerald Schatten, who collaborated on the project, at the time called Snuppy "a frisky, healthy, normal, rambunctious puppy."
Now some are wondering if Snuppy, now eight months old, was just that.
The journal Nature said this week it is reviewing the paper in light of questions raised about Hwang's other research.
A top international stem-cell researcher also questioned Friday if the dog had really been cloned.
"I think a lot of the community were very impressed with the cloning of a dog -- and it was a delightful dog _ but I actually don't think it is a cloned dog now," said Professor Alan Trounson of Australia's Monash University.
12/23/2005 06:44:28
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 23, 2005, 04:10 PM:
Leonard,
Is the DNA the same in Dalmatians and GR’s??? Just mess’n don’t want to start down that road but it is a thought?????
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on December 23, 2005, 04:11 PM:
CBGC,
I don't want you to get hit by a car tomorrow.
But I don't want the Steelers to get that last AFC playoff spot either.
Okay, I'm out.
Brad
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 23, 2005, 04:30 PM:
I like cheap shots. Jack Daniels sounds like a not so bad idea. And, I still say that they're woyotes. Ultimately, I was just yanking yer chain.
In any event, back to the original questions, even though Byron really didn't pose any questions and any questions that have arisen just seem to be more tangents and side tracks:
Bergman's Rule aside, I find it interesting that those Texas coyotes routinely get that big when I have never seen a coyote, let alone a woyote, in KS that passed the 41# mark. I think that there are all the various subspecies as listed and that along the fringes of their ranges, you will see hybrids expressing each's characteristics. And I think that there are some subspecies that can throw unusually large individuals while there are those that do not. C. Latrans frustror, in the eastern half of Kansas, are typically larger in stature than C.l.latrans in western Kansas. In my area, they overlap and I can easily see both in the same hour of the day, and at times running together. C.l.latrans is much paler with silkier guard hairs, whiter bellies, shorter legs, and barely any black on the front of the foreleg, while frustror is best decsribed as a roan coyote with red hair on the back, longer legs, 4-5# heavier on average than a same age coyote in latrans, and with the fronts of the forelegs nearly entirely black at times. I can usually tell which one I've called from a couple hundred yards away and have actuially had the opportunity to selectively kill for the better subsp. when I have 2 or more on the deck.
For example, this coyote I shot Tuesday morning looks, to me, to be a mixture of the two.
C.l.latrans shows a belly this light in color, but won't be this red on the back. C.l. frustror is always red on the sides and back, but generally has a darker belly, rarely pale, and not with this much difference between the upper and lower parts of the face.
If there is that much variation in these two subspecies, I would accept the assertion that Byron's coyotes could produce those Mongo mutant woyote-looking critters down there and only ask that he export a few up this way so I can hunt them, too. (BTW, I've never seen a black coyote taken around here, nor have I heard of one, whereas Byron has seen and taken a bunch over the years.)
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 23, 2005, 05:18 PM:
Experts; Back in 1981, we had an "AIDS" poster in our FD. Stated to the effect. You can't get AID'S from "kissing". Well....that was later changed, from as long as you don't "deep French kiss" [open sore or a bleeder,eh]
Experts; Just of late. Seen on the news. That "they"[Experts], now say. That "high Fiber" now has no greater[colon cancer] reduction properties :confused:Hmmmmm
I'm kinda like, Leonard. I often question [Experts].
The smartest man, knows but a grain of sand...in the desert of truth .
BTW Lance, I agree with the "Woyote" & "Coydog" mix's
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 23, 2005, 06:20 PM:
Rod and Byron, I got a idea. lets lease up a lot of pasture between Orange and Bossier City. We can plant it in Milo treated with the growth hormones used by the Chicken and turkey industry.
This will result in our normal two pound field rats growing to six pounds. The Coyotes will eat the giant rats full of growth hormones. In no time we could have our own subspecies of CL Bigassmus 120 pound Coyotes.
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on December 23, 2005, 06:32 PM:
CBGC,..I have to agree with you,the eastern coyote 'is' smarter than its western cousin.[Let er fly boys!]
It has nothing to do with a college education,but an education,none the less.Some here want to disagree because i think it has something to do with there ego..I guess something bigger,smarter and better is something they can't handle,unless they have it and if they had it,they couldn't handle it,"no better than we can."
I've heard this crap, [someday you're coyote will be as smart as the western coyote],someday. "Makes me want to laugh" Sorry,but there education has been ahead of it's western brother for a long time.
If there not so smart,why is it that so many big name[western coyote hunters]came here to Pa. and went back,with a big fat-[ZERO]-coyotes,killed?
Why are they larger?..I don't honestly know.
Why are they better...There not,so i will skip that one.
Why are they smarter?..They don't have the wide open spaces like the western coyotes have to escape danger.They have to smartin up to survive in these smaller pockets of land..They have been hunted and called as much,"if not more"than the western coyote and been run by hounds.They have learned to avoid almost any trick you try to throw at them..There no super coyote,but a smart one indeed.
Jay,..On the trapping..There so good at flipping traps,i had to nail my traps on a peice of plywood and turn it upside down in the hole..When they slipped there paw under to flip the trap,"WHAMO".Now there smarting up to that...LOL [Kidding]
No hard feelings meant or intended to anyone.
Merry Xmas,Everyone
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 23, 2005, 06:34 PM:
quote:
I guess I have to ask why you are so adamantly against the thought that coyotes could hybridize with wolves.
Lance, I am not, "adamantly against the thought", I am against dishonest misrepresentation, all dolled up as "scientific fact".
I'm telling you that these guys are liars and cheats. Just because "they" claim they have irrefutable proof that eastern coyotes possess one scintilla of wolf DNA, that does not impress me one scintilla. If the scientific method means anything at all, it should stand up to duplication by independant sources. This is not happening, dude!
If OJ Simpson can get away with murder, with the help of liars and cheats and paid shills in the scientific community, by calling black white; then I can reserve my distaste for all of these fakes that try to hoodwink us with their credentials. Yes, I'm a skeptic, and proud of it.
edit: quote:
With all due respect, your rejection of DNA technology ......
Please understand, Lance. I do not "reject" DNA technology. I know how it works. The problem is when some Scientist ******* decides to use total fabrication and lies and then trots out the DNA buzz word so that everybody stands at attention and salutes it as holy writ. They don't have to (actually) prove anything, they just have to CLAIM that they proved it.
These "studies" go way beyond a simple difference of opinion. Do we have "Global Warming" or not? How can HONEST people use the same data and reach different conclusions? Does "second hand smoke" actually cause lung cancer, or is it enough, that we cannot prove otherwise? Is EVOLUTION an absolute proven fact, or is there room for INTELLIGENT DESIGN? What the hell are they afraid of? If it stands up, it stands up. If my faith tells me that we are more than just smart monkeys, why are the courts afraid to allow four paragraphs of dissent, on the off chance that the scientific community is full of shit? LB
[ December 23, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on December 23, 2005, 11:17 PM:
East vs. West.
Every time this topic comes up I put out this offer and for some unknown reason, I think it has to do with pride, I never get any response.
For anyone who thinks they could call in coyotes in the east I have a cabin in Northeast PA (Pike Co.) there is around 90,000 acers of huntable land, state forest,state game lands,etc. its all woods, no fields or big open areas. There is a real good coyote population.
I would pick you up at LVI airport and drop you back off at the end of the hunt. It would cost you your flight and food.
If any of you western callers think your up to it reply here or shoot me an e-mail slsaws2004@netzero.net
BUT at the end of the 3days,1 week, however long you think you need, be ready to hear "I told ya they are different". ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on December 24, 2005, 01:44 AM:
I wouldn't even try to call the area you described..traps and snares would be my choice.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 24, 2005, 04:45 AM:
Interesting discussion/opinions.
I've told about the coyotes in my area, many times before. Some folks have expressed, there's "no difference" in coyotes. All can be called. Perhaps, @ the exact right moment in time.
Seems one [key], here in this discussion, is behavioral. Same coyote...[act's differently]. Yup, I agree with that.
My hunt area, has very little timber. Mostly wide open rolling [corn]cropland hills.
Their [watching] most of the time.
Out of the 9 or 10 coyotes. I've managed to call in to date. Only one came to within 60yrds, he was [loping/pronking] fast. All the others, wouldn't come closer than 150yrds. Most hung way out there.
Shotguns...no worky here
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 24, 2005, 06:40 AM:
OK Leonard, now you have gone and done it. Your cheap shot was just that. My Dad once used the phrase "Don't let your education get in the way of your learning"(A variant of yours to Lance). He used that in an argument about differences in business philosophy between he and I. He had payed for my College learning and did not want to let me use any of it.
I had seen these ideas work in large corporations I had worked for and knew them to be good approaches to business growth. I wanted our corporation to grow and he wanted to not lose control. It was a classic struggle between first and second generation.
I am not sure how that pertains to the subject at hand but needed to get that off my chest.....thanks.....now back to the conversation.
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 24, 2005, 08:48 AM:
The first Civil War was between the North and South. Looks like the next will be East and West.
Byron and Rod, Yawl better jump on board my super rat project. Have already ordered a 375 and some 350 gr V-Max's for the CL Bigassamus Coyotes.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 24, 2005, 09:13 AM:
Quote, "Is the DNA the same in Dalmatians and GR’s???"
No. It's similar in a broad sense, but identifiably different.
The National Institute of Health has funded research to compile the complete DNA sequence of the dog. The Center for Veterinary Genetics at the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine currently has responsibility for the DNA bank. To date, more than 100 recognized dog breeds have been genetically mapped.
With this information, it is “scientifically” possible to distinguish the difference between a blood sample from a dalmatian and one from a golden retriever. These DNA profiles are routinely being used in police investigations for verification and genetic identity purposes.
This same methodology can also be used to accurately identify and distinguish DNA samples from gray wolves, red wolves, coyotes, cape hunting dogs, dingos, and domestic dog breeds.
A similar detailed, in-depth genetic analysis of coyotes would have to be undertaken before the "East vs West" controversy could ever be more than just conjecture and speculation.
BTW, the esteemed BM is a staunch supporter of the "woyote" theory. Although he proclaims it as fact, rather than theory.
[ December 24, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2005, 10:16 AM:
NASA, you notice I have not said that I don't believe in DNA. Yes, it's a wonderful techology with broad application.
When they map the coyote genome, and they map every wolf genome, they will have a starting point for that "overlay transparency" I mentioned before, which doesn't exist, except as a device in this debate.
In the meantime, it is like comparing two slightly different fingerprints, and noticing that some swirels and loops look alike. Hmmm? No doubt.
I am perfectly willing to concede the point when I see valid data from an unimpeachable source. Lucky for me, that does not exist, at the moment.
**************************************************
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, PAyotehunter. Glad to have you on board.
As to your "offer". It's no mystery why you get no response; nobody is interessted in playing your game. Assume some halfwit accepts your terms and fails to kill an eastern coyote. Why do you think that proves that a Pennsylvania coyote is different, or smarter?
If you sleep better by knowing that your coyotes are (somehow?) different, that's great.
I assume you have hunted coyotes in enough places that you are the sole expert on the subject, and the rest of us are rank amateurs.
Okay, your opinion is duly noted and you can tell us "pampass know it alls"; "I told you so" if you ever prove your point.
Good hunting. LB
[ December 24, 2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 24, 2005, 10:35 AM:
Say, Leonard...Where did that phrase[Pampass know it alls], come from anyway .
--------------------------
BTW, I've been called many things...never that
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 24, 2005, 10:44 AM:
As has been said previously, it's "adaptability" not intellegence. If 30 AZ coyotes were trapped and subsequently released in the Allegheny National Forest, how long do you think it would take for them to become indistinguishable from the local population?
They would not "become" smarter. They are already just as "smart" as the locals. What they would have to do is adapt to to the different biosphere. And they would do it in a matter of months.
[ December 24, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2005, 11:28 AM:
quote:
Say, Leonard...Where did that phrase[Pampass (sic) know it alls], come from anyway .
That comes from Glenn Guess, who made the charge on another board, talking about Huntmasters. Some of us frat boys think it's amusing.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 24, 2005, 11:34 AM:
10-4, thanks. Hmmmm, how do I become one LOL!
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 24, 2005, 11:41 AM:
Melvin,Payotehunter, CBGC,
I did come out to PA last year and was skunked. To my knowledge I didn't call a thing. Was I suprized or disapointed? No. While I was there (3-4 days) PA had the largest flood since 1972. Every drop fell within 3 of those days. Not making excuses but, I wouldn't have even hunted in that weather had I not been there. Not only was is raining but the wind was blowing at least 40 miles an hour the entire time I was there.
Of the things that I took particular interest in though was the lack of coyote sign. I covered lots of ground while there and never saw one smidgen of evidence that a coyote even inhabited the land where we were trying to make one appear from. I hear from lots of guys from PA say "We have real good coyote population" Compared to what? Not trying to be a smart ass but real good populations of coyotes leave real good sign that the said populations exists. Are they even smart enough out there to cover their tracks and cover their scat? OK, OK, that was kind of smart assed.
Another thing that struck me was the similarity in terrain to what I hunt here in EAST Texas. Pretty dang close.
Another thing I find is guys around here (East Texas)complain of the same problems you PA guys do. To thick, to many people, coyotes to smart, not as many as out West. They pretty much experience the same lack of success that you PA guys have experienced. Many to the point of just giving up and declaring it just don't work on our coyotes, and spouting the same words you PA guys do "Man you guys out West sure have it easy". I've hunted out West quite a bit and I will tell you, guys out West that kill lots of coyotes, work their butts off to do so. Most Western callers I speak with would love for you Eastern guys to come out and show them where the dumbs one are.
Back to the meat. I have hunted East Texas my entire life. I can remember when if someone saw or heard a coyote it was a big deal. We have not always had lots of coyote, and still don't by many standards. Through the years I have been fortunate to hunt and call coyotes in several states East and West and have applied what I've learned out West to what I've learned here to become quite successfull in calling these coyotes in pretty consistantly. Do I have it all figured out, not hardly. Do I call one every time I go out? No, but my odds have gotten way better through the years.
I find it very frustrating for guys back East to tell me I don't understand when I do understand. Believe me when I say I understand you're frustration. Been there, got the shirt. You should have the population we now have in East Texas and still go a season without calling a coyote. These guys see tracks and hear coyotes howling and even step on scat in the very trails they are calling on, but yet still don't see coyotes. Out of frustration they too whine that these coyotes just have to be smarter. All the while I'm killing coyotes on about 1 out of five stands in the same country. I'm not saying this to boast or to belittle anyone, but just to say it is tougher, and I know it's tougher, and it has nothing to do with some superior breed of coyote. They all still have that dumb look on their face right before I send them to their happy hunting grounds in the sky.
PAyothunter,
I could offer you the same challenge to come to my neck of the woods to kill coyotes and chances are you would not see a coyote in a weeks time as well. This is not meant as a slam of your abilities but as an honest assessment of your experience. I have guided many experienced but very frustrated coyote hunters from back East. I give them a choice between hunting East Texas and West Texas. I also inform them of what they can expect. Most choose West Texas so they can experience the thrill of seeing one come for a ways. And also because of the larger population they can expect to kill more animals. A large portion of these guys return home with a better understanding of coyotes, setting up, and have become more successfull when they return home. A small handfull of the guys I have guided from the East have elected to conduct their hunts here in East Texas. They are amazed at the similarities in terrain and cover. On each stand I explain what were doing and why. Usually after two or three days a light comes on in their head and they fiugure it out. They then return home and start to kill coyotes on a more consistant basis.
I will maintain untill my dying day that coyotes are no smarter determined by their address, but I will also concede that Eastern coyotes are on average tougher to call (reason I mentioned in an earlier post). I'm also fully aware of the many subspecies of coyotes found across the country, but many callers seem to skip the simple fact that they are still all coyotes regardless of what subspecies they are. Coyotes of all subspecies like to come to the distress cries of an animal and will respond the the vocals of other coyotes as well. They make their living doing this sort of thing, daily. Eastern callers, in genaral, have larger hurdles to cross in getting through the learning curve to become consistantly successful. You simply have tougher country to hunt, more pressured coyotes, and most of all fewer coyotes. This combines to leghthen the amount of time to figured this stuff out considerably. What normally will take a guy in the West only a year to figure out will take a guy in the East 10 years to figure out. Are we to assume from this that Westerners are smarter than Easterners. No, they just have a better class room. The reverse is true with the coyotes. Intelligence has nothing at all to do with. Where they get their education does.
I'm sure some of the things I have said won't sit well with some, and I want to apoplogize now if I offended anyone. These were not my intentions. I like these debates and value anyones take on the matter.
Merry Christmas
Byron
[ December 24, 2005, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on December 24, 2005, 12:02 PM:
Byron, I know you probably didn't expect your original post to take this detour. But it seeded some interesting and thought provoking discussion. I appologize for taking it off-track and at the same time thank you for your insight along the path it did take.
MERRY CHRISTMAS everybody!!
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 24, 2005, 12:10 PM:
quote:
When they map the coyote genome, and they map every wolf genome, they will have a starting point for that "overlay transparency" I mentioned before, which doesn't exist, except as a device in this debate.
Leonard,
You are known to occasionally drop a "golden nugget of wisdom" on us.
This is absolutely one of those times.
I agree PAyotehunter's "challange" is no more likely to recieve an answer than my challenge has.
Nobody wants to play against a stacked deck.
East, west, blah blah blah... I live close enough to the Pacific Ocean I can smell it, nobody hunts country any thicker than I do.
I am not buyin' the east-west crap.
It's hard if you make it hard, nobody knows that better than I do.
Why no Washington "super-coyote", is a big question to me? We have good sized cats, elk (world record was broke this fall), bears, etc. Why tiny deer and small/average coyotes?
Anytime you PA boys are up for a real challange, come on out, one of you kills three coyotes over three consecutive days, in my county, and I'll eat the third one.
Nobody, in a few years of offering, wants to play my game either. Suprised?
Byron,
I agree with NASA, you've made some really good points (even if I could tell steam was coming out your ears), your writing has improved a lot (*awesome use of paragraphs dude!).
Krusty 
P.S. Yes, kids that are raised on the streets are smarter. About the streets!
This doesn't mean they'll have the same skills the pampered kids have, or that those pampered kids are without skills of their own.
The coyotes that live in a more urban envoronment will behave differently than "wild" coyotes do. Each will possess it's own set of skills, relative to it's own daily life.
[ December 24, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2005, 01:17 PM:
I do not wish to offend anybody, either. However, I have noticed, through the years, that eastern predator hunters have a higher percentage of whiners. lol
Just kidding, don't get your panties wadded up!
I wish they would hurry up with that definitive DNA proof we keep hearing about. Then, I may sleep a little better knowing for sure that wolves EAT coyotes; they seldom SCREW them....... Oh yeah? Okay, who's seen it?
That's what I thought. LB
[ December 24, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 24, 2005, 02:56 PM:
Hey Byron,
Nice pics. That's a BIG coyote, man. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 24, 2005, 03:38 PM:
Byron,
Not to sure who you hunted with while you where out this way but I would blame the lack sign on them and their lack of scouting. Last year at one point I was 1 for every 9 stands, and this was consistent for a good part of the year. When it was all over I was 1 for 11, not to bad for this area. I do not recall me whining about hunting in PA, I wouldn’t trade the ridge tops here for anything in the world.
I am sure if you spent time here your numbers would be the same if not higher. Why U have way more experience at killing coyotes than I do and you are dedicated to what you do, as am I
But I will tell ya one thing about me, I don’t measure my success by pulling the trigger I measure it by the knowledge I gain, this is what makes me successful every time I step into the woods.
Merry Christmas Everyone!
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 24, 2005, 04:23 PM:
CBGC, good job on those PA coyotes. I believe you when you say it. Unfortunately many in your own state will call you a liar. Let me go eat my pizza and I will say a little more on this subject unless you guys are ready to let it rest.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2005, 05:45 PM:
Heck no! What you got, Gerald, I'm all ears.
Good hunting. LB
PS CB~ don't take it personal, but you have to admit, when we talk about whining coyote hunters, they all hail from, not New York or New Jersey or Ohio. They are usually in Pennsylvania, for some unknown reason?
Merry Christmas, and don't take any of this too seriously, okay?
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 24, 2005, 06:00 PM:
GS,
Wouldn’t lie to ya, not married to ya. In fact not married at all and I don’t have any kids. My free time is spent in the woods spying on critters every day. I have a pretty good reputation in this part of the country as a being a half decent woodsman, a pretty honest person and a half decent caller. I hate to talk numbers because many people question them and like I said, I don’t measure my success by killing. I know of 3 or 4 guys here in PA that double my numbers???? How do they do this??? They are dedicated, like U, Byron and 50% of the other guys on this board.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 24, 2005, 06:28 PM:
Krusty,
I'm not hot over this subject at all. In fact, I enjoy this type discussion. Thanks for the comments on my writing. Until I got on the net a couple of years ago I had never typed or written a thing.
CBGC,
I never said you specifically were whining , but I can easily see how it looked as if I did. For that, I apologize. I go lots of places and talk to lots of coyote callers, not only on the WWW, but in person. It's not only MY observation but that of many others, that your state seems to have more than it's share of whiners. If your killing 1 out of every 9 stands you certainly have it down pretty damn good. You should put this on video and share your tactics with others in your state. From the amount of whining I here from there they are certainly hungry for this type of thing.
I would have enjoyed very much the opportunity of meeting you but would have been very surprised if we would have called in a thing under the weather conditions we had while I was there.
Here is something to think about. It would not matter if I had killed a coyote or twenty while I was there. Many of these whiners are so caught up in their defeat that they would find fault with that as well. I surely would have been hunting turned out pet coyotes, or used my pull as a coyote hunting "celebrity" (Good one huh) to gain access to only the best places, or any number of other reasons you can think of. In short it was a no win situation and always will be.
Nasa,
I've really enjoyed the way this thread has taken it's twist and turns. I would have expected nothing less.
Lance,
Thanks, but Rod deserves the credit.
Gerald,
I can't wait for you to finish your pizza and give us your take on the subject.
To all,
This East vs West thing will without a doubt never die out, but does seem to get some a little defensive. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and if so I didn't mean any disrespect. Those that have only hunted in the East or West don't nessarily need to, to have a pretty good idea of the challenges of doing so. The rub comes in when you start trying to compare the two as apples to apples. The basics remain the same but that is about it. Many people try and relate numbers killed to skill level. This only applies when all things are equal (Never). Realistic expectations should always be considered or you will often find yourself very frustrated.
I have had guys hunting with me that thought, before hand, that I must possess some type of super human skill from viewing my videos only to have their opinion of me destroyed when I was unable to produce for several stands in a row. To me I don't think much about it. I expect to call a coyote on every stand, but often don't. I have confidence in my abilities but also have realistic expectaions and I'm keenly aware of the fact that sometimes they just don't come regarless of what you do. I've spent the better part of thirty years trying to figure out WHY. The more I try and find answers the more questions I have. Herein lies the beauty of calling coyotes. There will always be more questions than answers. This is why we never quit trying. As callers we can hone our skills with a call, learn to be slicker through the woods, learn to read sign, learn what makes a good set-up and all the other things that combine to make you a skillful coyote caller, but in the end it depends solely on the coyotes what happens after that. We have very little control over that. This is what I believe is frustrating for most new callers or those that don't have many coyotes. They need the occasional confimation that they are doing something right. Also without being able to see a coyote you don't get to learn what you did right and what you did wrong. A guy could do everything textbook correct in poor coyote country and not see a coyote but on maybe 1 out of 50 stands. On the other hand, a half asses coyote caller could expect to see maybe 1 out of every 10 stands in good calling country. This is why I believe it would be good money spent for guys living in the East to save their money and make a trip out West. Most I've seen that have done this with an open mind have reeped benefits from it. Others have had a very humbling experience and have went home empty handed. In one trip out West you can gain very valuable experiences that will apply directly to your calling in the East (hard to believe, but true).
I've seen the question posed "If two callers, one from the East and one from the West were to trade places for a month which would adapt quicker and become the most proficient". My answer will undoubtedly spark controversy but it is my honest opinion that the Western caller would be able to adapt quicker. I base this on the fact that he is more keenly aware of coyotes and their behavior through being able to observe them more. He will have some difficulties for sure but through his overwhelming experience (compared to the Easterners) with coyotes he will be able to overcome these hurdles faster. We will never know this for sure but I believe my theory is correct. This is why I mentioned above it would be of great benefit to you Eastern callers to make the trip out West and hunt some of them dumb coyotes.
Merry Christmas,
Byron
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on December 24, 2005, 06:42 PM:
Dave, my success was running slightly less than yours.I called in four the last time out[only 2 left in that bunch.]
You know we got the big hunt coming up in feb. and I'm still registered in the Nemacolin hunt.The hunt put my coyote killing on hold.
Byron,i agree with,Dave..you either put yourself in the wrong area? or someone steered you wrong?"Its another myth,[Pa. don't got many coyotes.]"They are there,just harder to see."
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 24, 2005, 07:10 PM:
I have had the occassion to visit with guys that are successful in a handfull of Eastern States. I have listened close and seem to hear a common thread in their stories. They spend alot of time in the woods. They are willing to work a little harder than most others. They use common sense and do not have unreasonable expectations.
In my time last year in PA I listened closely and it seems to me that the guys that are successful will take what is average to us, to uncommon lengths to be successful in Pa. On one hand, where we much of the time do not have to scout as in depth as the successful callers in the Northeast, it is a must there. At one of my seminars I had a guy relate that he simply sat down on a road and called for about 5 minutes and had a coyote standing about 30 feet from him. His genuinely surprised remark was that "it seemed so easy".
I cautioned him not to expect that every time because he simply was lucky enough to have sat down close by a hungry or inquisitive coyote that certainly will be more careful the next time. I talked in private with several that did not want to claim in the seminar 4 or 5 called in season because their peers would not believe them. How sad it is that people in Pa have to be afraid to speak the truth because they will be ridiculed. I know the feeling because I have on occassion admitted to going o-fer on some great Texas ranch only to have the cowboys raise their eyebrows, smile, spit towbaacceee and offer to call some up for me. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I believe the basics of calling technique and coyote response are the same east or west. It is simply a reality that in the east you have to work harder and be smarter, more careful, more creative in your effort. But guess what, there are areas in many other parts of the country where you have to be the same way. Byron makes some real good points that are logical and simply good common sense.
I have called coyotes in Vermont, Indiana, Kentuckey, South Carolina and Mississippi. I know that is not far enough East for some reading this but the terrain in many of those areas is much thicker than in the average areas I usually call in. It was tough. I have bombed in Wisconsin, Connecticut and seems like one other I can't recall right now. I came away from those trips extremely dissappointed because I had unreasonable expectations. I had no chance to scout, I picked calling stands as I went and I only made an average # of stands in the short time I had there.
I recently went into a Ranch totally unprepared for what we faced. 25,000 acres, two days of steady calling, we threw the whole arsenal at them. We called three coyotes that never came into shooting positions. That was in West Texas river bottom country....not PA.
Give me another shot at that ranch after that learning experience with some better scouting, different setups, leave the camera at home and I can almost bet that our success ratio will go up...because I know what to expect. The same is true of eastern callers who are patient, realistic and determined.....not pessimistic, negative and predicting failure before they ever start.
I think 1 in 11 stands is outstanding. Over the course of my calling I probably have averaged 3 or 4 in ten with the pendulum swinging to either of the far ends every once in a while. I have always felt that eastern callers should expect 1 in 15 to 20 if they are particular about what they do.
[ December 24, 2005, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on December 24, 2005, 07:15 PM:
Rich, I tried, I honestly tried. He did exactly what I told you he would do. Maybe you are right, it is time to let loose the hounds.
Get well my friend.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 24, 2005, 07:26 PM:
Here is my nomination....Byron for president!
I might take up PAyotehunter on his offer if I can take CBGC with me. If we can make 40 or 50 stands then we could get maybe 4 or 5 coyotes on film. I could get rich selling that video East of the Mississippi. Seriously.
That was a compliment CBGC not a jab.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 24, 2005, 07:43 PM:
Ronnie,
You may have something with the hormone deal. Send Rod some so he can get it to the cornbred lady and we will keep you posted.
Gerald,
President? President of what?
If you take PAyotehunter up on his offer. I would like the chance to film it. We can split the profits with CBGC.
quote:
The same is true of eastern callers who are patient, realistic and determined.....not pessimistic, negative and predicting failure before they ever start.
This sentence best desbribes why attempts at most ventures either fail or succeed. Well put.
Byron
[ December 24, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 24, 2005, 09:49 PM:
Merry christmas! Group hug!
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on December 24, 2005, 11:58 PM:
Ok, Byron wins the grand prize!
"I base this on the fact that he is more keenly aware of coyotes and their behavior through being able to observe them more."
This bit of fact is the Holy Grail in this whole topic. The lack of seeing Coyotes east is by far the biggest factor in why everyone there is having such a hard time. So much so that it leads to so many more aspects of the calling problem and has escalated into a huge no win situation there. For western hunters the learning curve helped by sight is tremendously steeper than the eastern counterpart. With such a lousy chance to gain knowledge on what's happening most have given up and/or resorted to "vocalizing" about it. Like Krusty mentioned the west coast is amazingly thick also. I was talking about this with my pop a couple hours ago and realized that I have only seen maybe 5-10 Coyotes on this side in the 40 years I've been here. I don't call here virtually at all (but I don't whine much about it either) so that isn't a factor there. But, with the terrain so steep and the vegetation so thick it takes a completely different mindset and process to call the timber. Most all the guys that have good success around here call mostly in the more open valleys. Some do well by my perspective in the timber too. Bud from this board seems to have a good system for brush hunting here. I feel that the eastern callers are going to have to stop paying attention to 90% of what most of the western hunters are doing and develope their own methods. A sage hunter is really in the dark about brush hunting unless he's been there.
[ December 25, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on December 25, 2005, 06:07 PM:
Byron, Gerald,
Your welcome anytime, CBGC and I will be there Feb.3,4,5 there is room if you want to come then.
This was not a "challenge" it was an offer, an opportunity for successful callers to come to PA and give it a try and see first hand what everyone is "whining" about. This was not an offer in hopes to see someone fall on their face, I thought I could learn a few things in the process.
I never said it was easy out west, I know its not easy. I also never said "our" coyotes were smarter or coywolfs or coydogs, I believe they are different but still a coyote.
I believe all the whining is coming from guys that watch one of your DVD's and go out with unrealistic goals.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 25, 2005, 08:28 PM:
I value offers like that very much PAyotehunter. I really do appreciate it. It is hard to get to opportunities like that from so far away. That is usually right in our busiest season. Those particular days are in between a couple of events and would be hard to make this year. I will be wrapping up a hunt in Colorado for our next video at that time. Maybe next year. Keep me in mind. I want to do that real bad just so I can answer the critics who rightfully point out that I have not hunted PA.
And no.....I am not taking you Byron.
[ December 25, 2005, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 25, 2005, 08:37 PM:
This was a great thread and it took some crazy turns! I don’t post here too much because I am a little intimidated by the individuals that do. I guess I am afraid of saying something stupid and getting kicked around (U guys are tuff) but the east west thing changes that (home team type of thing).
GS, Didn’t take that as a jab at all, but U will not get 40 or 50 stands out of me in two weeks let a lone in a couple days. On average I spend at least an hour on each stand and it might take an hour or so to walk into the areas I hunt. I like to hunt bigwoods coyotes, their survival rate is better and they are bigger dogs (54 lbs filmed with the Sony HDR – FX1 (good stuff) coming soon).
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 25, 2005, 09:44 PM:
What I know about hunting coyotes in the west is what I have seen on the videos. and I would guess that is what most of us in the east know about it.
The problem with the videos is that hunters watch them, but they don't really see what is going on.
The coyotes on the videos don't just come right in. You don't see them go from point A to B in plain sight. They are there, then they duck behind something, then down in a gully and they are back again.
We miss the subtle way the western coyote uses what ever he can to keep in cover.
Is the Eastern Coyote smarter than the Western Coyote?
I don't think so. He just has more cover to work with, and uses it the same way his western cousin does when responding to the call.
Some might use the old addage "Go West young man" if you wand to kill lots of coyotes. I don't think you have to travel more than 15 feet. Up.
The woods here are thick, but they are also full of game trails. Some used heavily, some not, but they are there if you go find them. A day spent in the wood after a good snow will teach you more about the coyotes in your area then 10 years of calling blind.
If you have a remote E caller, set it just off a game trail, and get up in a tree stand a few yards off that trail and do your thing. No remote, set the speaker at the base of the tree and run your wire to you stand. You will get to see the coyotes coming from a lot farther off than if you were on the ground trying to find a gray, brown, black and tan animal in a forest full of gray black brown and tan trees, stumps leaves and fallen logs. Movement is easier to see from an elevated position.
Want a pretty sure bet to kill coyotes in the east? Find a deer yard, when the snow is deep and the air is cold.
Oh, and turn your e caller down. The land here rolls. It is not flat. Play your caller loud and it will echo in the little valleys and draws and it wont sound natural. Call the coyotes that are close, and move to the ones that are farther away. Don't try to call them in from over a mile away.
If you think our coyote populations are not as good as those out west, you might be right. But, New Hampshire tappers trapped 39% more coyotes this year than they did last year, and there were 4% fewer trappers. They trapped over 200% more than they did just 6 years ago, again with fewer trappers.
We've got lots of 35 and 40 pound coyotes in New Hampshire, and come winter, with all that fur, they sure look a lot bigger. We have a few that go over 50 and a few that top 60 pounds too. But most are closer to 40 or 45 pounds. Find one that is making a livng around the deer yards and you might just get a big one.
So are they really bigger? Maybe, and if so, I think that is because they do not have to expend as much energy to find food. Deer are plentiful, turkeys, rabbits, and they are in a more condensed area. I would bet most of our coyotes ranges here are smaller than those in the west because of this. They just have no reason to travel farther. Water is everywhere. Denning locations abound. If you eat good and the only place you travel to is the fridge from the lazy boy, chances are you are goning to gain weight too.
I don't know, this is just a eastern hunters prespective. I don't think the coyotes are smater, but I do think you have to be smarter to hunt them here. I also think it takes a bit more work than you might have to do out west. You don't have miles and miles of roads where you can just pull over and walk 100 yards and make a stand.
I know that if I hunted all winter, and only killed 5 or 6 coyotes, I would find something else to do with my time. If you make 100 stands in a season and don't see any coyotes, you might want to try something different, try to figure out why, if it is really important to you.
Of course all the above applies to where I hunt, and in the conditions I hunt in. It may not work for someone in the east who doesn't have snow, or deer yards, but I can bet that there is something that will work if you think about it some. It may be completely different that the way they do it out west, but who cares as long as it works in your area.
As for the DNA thing, did coyotes breed with wolves? All I can say is that after spending 21 years in the Marine Corps, when it comes to breeding, nothing would surprise me anymore. I've seen some strange stuff.
Al
THO Custom Game Calls
[ December 25, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: TheHuntedOne ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 25, 2005, 10:04 PM:
quote:
I don’t post here too much because I am a little intimidated by the individuals that do.
Well, I think it's a shame that you feel that way and that we make you feel that way.
If this board exists for anything, it is to share ideas and talk about predator hunting. I really don't think we have many ego trips on Huntmasters, somebody would surely pull their pants down around their ankles.
Okay, we are long in the experience department, numbers of dead animals and years on the job. I haver yet to hear a real predator hunter act like he knows everything. Lot's of people that think they know it all, which is a big indication that they don't know it all.
I think the member that comes in and asks a legit question, not pretending that he knows everything, that is the type of person, and the type of question that is most likely to get some real pearls of wisdom in response; but it might be in code? Some folks just hate to spill their guts, so they just leak a little knowledge, here and there.
One thing for sure, if you hang in there, and read everything. Sooner or later, you will find something that you can apply to your personal situation. I can pretty much give you a money back guarantee on that issue. You are not wasting your time by reading this stuff.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on December 26, 2005, 02:40 AM:
I tell ya, I've enjoyed this particuliar post. More than any other I've [ever] read. Thought provoking for sure.
-----------------
Coyotes, I don't & probably never will consider myself a "caller". Hunter yes, not caller.
A couple things, that have taught me over the yrs of coyote.
Are, patterns in the snow,[when, where & why] for example.
------------------------
Leonard, your right...No one will "ever" know-it-all. Something I've learned while in the Fire-Service.
Even a "new-guy"[or gal], can teach you something now & then. As it is "impossible" to have "experienced everything"
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 26, 2005, 06:54 AM:
OK....big group hug...gather around now....don't be afraid to touch another guy....now squeeze real good.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2005, 11:52 AM:
You have me thinking that you've seen "that" movie, Gerald?
There are few things I find more repulsive.....oh ya know, if we were freezing and only had one sleeping bag; well maybe?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 27, 2005, 07:24 AM:
This IS one of the more fun threads as was stated eventhough Byron still has a loooong way to go before he reaches that 80# eastern plateau.
I was once told by an EPC expert that the bigger coyotes are typically found near big red barns.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 27, 2005, 08:06 AM:
Did the PADNR not do a study and find that some of their coyotes tested resembled 90%+ wolf DNA?
Related Species
The coyote is one of 8 species of the genus Canis. Four of these are jackals of Europe, Africa & Asia. Other members of the genus include the Gray Wolf (C. lupus), the Red Wolf (C. rufus) and all the breeds of the domestic dog (C. familiaris).
Then again, I've never seen a lot of combines in the southwest. Is this because the corn isn't corn or are conditions just unfavorable for rowcropping?
Either way, you guys in Az, Tx and Ca have it made when it comes to coyotes.
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on December 27, 2005, 08:15 AM:
Yeah. You guys envy us for coyotes and we envy you for Whitetails. Somehow the trade-off doesn't seem quite fair.
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on December 27, 2005, 08:24 AM:
Nice coyote ! Since I'm nearly 72 have back surgery and bone spurs- nearly all coyotes are 50# or at least they seem to be :>).
Richard Grantham
Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on December 27, 2005, 12:19 PM:
Here is some info from the Pennsylvania Game Commission.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=164013
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=150783
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on December 27, 2005, 05:10 PM:
Jay
We need some of your music in the background when the page opens !
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on December 27, 2005, 05:16 PM:
Eastern VS Western: same species,DIFFERENT critters!...This is the heading of an artical writtin by,Emory Josey.
I received a copy of-"predator Xtreme"-[where you can read the whole story] compliments of-AllPredatorCalls.com-and want to say thanks, Mr.AP Jones
The artical has a lot in there that pertains to what we all been discussing..I don't think its gone to change anyones thinking?'but'it is interesting reading.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 27, 2005, 06:16 PM:
quote:
Yeah. You guys envy us for coyotes and we envy you for Whitetails. Somehow the trade-off doesn't seem quite fair.
Don't be too quick to turn green quite yet, Jay. I haven't seen too many out of state rich people lock up half the state so they can come up here to hunt coyotes. Hopefully, they won't ever figure out what we already know.
Melvin,
I just got done reading the same article. You beat me to it. A lot of the (semi-)inflammatory debates in this thread are addressed in what I regard to be awfully bold and absolute terms by this author. I wish he'd come into this house so these naysayers could disassemble him and his writing word by word. He'd reconsider how he states his opinions from here on out, I bet.
Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on December 27, 2005, 08:10 PM:
If you were freezing to death Leonard, the fastest way to warm you up, if I had no fire or any other way to warm you, would be to strip naked and climb in the bag with you.
If I needed CPR, I know you would not hesitate to lock lips with me so I am willing to go flesh to flesh for you....right....Big fella!!!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on December 27, 2005, 08:40 PM:
OK, that enough you two. Quit the quotes. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on December 27, 2005, 11:48 PM:
Gerald,are you feverish? Maybe got the flue or something?
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on December 28, 2005, 03:57 AM:
Is this the script of Brokeback Mountain or a coyote hunting thread?
Damn guys!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 28, 2005, 06:53 AM:
Anybody starts singing 'Homo on the Range' & I'm outta here!!!
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on December 28, 2005, 07:03 AM:
From what I have heard, and of course this is NOT first hand knowledge of actually seeing this film, even though I live in the east and Leonard has said that all easterners are liberals, that the two main charactors in the "movie" are.....
Sheep Herders....not cowboys....
AL
THO Custom Game Calls
Posted by RonDell (Member # 761) on December 28, 2005, 08:24 AM:
I don't care who they are. They don't belong on the big screen and certainly don't belong here. I thought this was a frindly board but not that way.
From a good topic on a 50 pound coyote to bareback mountain is just plain wrong and gives me the heebee geebies (however you spell it).
[ December 28, 2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: RonDell ]
Posted by Rob Love (Member # 723) on December 28, 2005, 10:18 AM:
I didn't weigh him but I always thought 50 or so was normal around here.
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