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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on November 01, 2005, 06:40 PM:
 
Locator vs Interrogation. What's the difference in sound and meaning? Is one more threatening or aggressive than the other? To me the locator is an extra long howl that goes up and then tapers off. The interrogation is shorter maybe? When is the proper time to use one versus the other? Help me out here guys. Thanks, Todd.

[ June 08, 2006, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 01, 2005, 07:07 PM:
 
Todd, where did you see or get the names for those howls? Wasn't the WT was it?
Why I ask is because you described two types of lone howls, whereas a locator is generally a group yip-howl such as the JS LOCATOR and an interrogation howl is a lone howl.
Coyotes generally approach a lone howl more often than responding vocally and they respond vocally to yip howls more often than they approach.
 

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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on November 01, 2005, 07:12 PM:
 
Rich, if my memory serves me right, Randy Anderson talks about the interrogation howl on his tapes. Quite possibly even the locator, or lone howl might be what I am referring to....I think were on the same video. Sut I've slept since then, so straighten me out if that's possible. Thanks, Todd.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 01, 2005, 07:23 PM:
 
Rich,

Another ? along this line..

What's the difference between the lone howl and the female invitation howl?

What I've heard is that the lone howl is a slow rise, then a flat pitch that suddenly drops off at the end.

The female invitation howl goes up quickly then slowl drops down and fades away.

I've used both with similar results, and responses. Is there a difference between the two or just more subjective titling?

Baldknobber,

The lone howl, as Rich taught me, rarely elicits a vocal response in my agricultural area. In fact, the vast majority of the time, responders generally move to the downwind, congregate en masse, and move in as a group (2-5 coyotes). I've only had one instance where they responded to me with a howl, and it was a challenge bark.
In those istances where I've been on stand before daylight and a pack lights up with a group howl, I can generally get an approach if I get the chance to lone howl over their racket and am within 15-20 minutes of shooting light. I'll howl, listen to them stop abruptly then start yipping as they begin moving toward me. Get in postion watching the downwind and be ready to shoot as soon as the light allows. Often, they've been sitting there waiting for me using the cover to conceal their reconnoiter.

I've yet to elicit a vocal response offering a one-man yip howl. (one hand clapping? ) but was witness to an amazing display of locator howling in Colorado where we had over a dozen coyotes answer from four or five different directions simultaneously. One thing I discussed wioth that caller and which was true that night was that too many guys howl to locate and leave if they don't get a response within 1 or 2 minutes. In reality, a nearby pack may take as long as 20 minutes to answer back, especially if they're spread out across their territory or home range and must trasvel to move to a more centrally located part of the alamo. Rich can offer much more specifics on this issue.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 01, 2005, 08:04 PM:
 
WE had some conversation along these lines a while back.

What Randy Anderson may describe as an "interrogation howl" another may say it's a female invitation, and a third would say the same sound is a domain howl. Maybe?

One thing is usually true, a lone howl, or perhaps a lost pup howl(?) will not get you a vocal response, so you are really making a mistake to be leaning against the truck for a couple minutes and then leaving because you expected an answer. You should be ready to kill a coyote if you use that howl, they won't answer you, but they could be right in front of you a lot sooner than you might expect.

Another point about strategy. If you are using a sound for locating coyotes, and you get a response; go get them. I believe it serves little purpose to locate a group of coyotes in the evening, intending to be there at first light. I do not find that they stay put well enough to accurately use the information six or eight hours later. They could be miles away....and probably are?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on November 02, 2005, 03:41 AM:
 
I set up on a stand last year. Started with a Lonehowl. As soon as I finished my howl a single coyote started barking then the pack started group howling and yiping right in front of me. They were around 150 yards out.

I worked those coyotes howling back and forth for well over an hr. Finaly got a Threat bark Howl from the male of the group, as we were howling at each other two other pack members sliped in on the down wind side of my stand, they didnt leave...lol...I had a down wind shooter!

Every once in awhile I will get a vocal responce from a lonehowl, but not often. I do get responces from just me yip howling though. Its nice when there are at least two guys with howlers though, but im alone most of the time when locating in the spring and summer.

Brent

[ November 02, 2005, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: keekee ]
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on November 02, 2005, 05:21 AM:
 
IMHO, Coyotes that vocally respond to a lone howl would've equally responded to a train whistle or siren at that instant. That "Winding up" sound will evoke sounds from dogs, coyotes, turkeys and owls at times. You could've finished it off with a rendition of TAPS and it wouldn't have mattered at the moment.
 

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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on November 02, 2005, 05:39 AM:
 
So Lance, if I understand you right, a lone howl or interrogation howl are the same thing. They are used to announce the presence of a coyote and illicits the territorial response from another coyote or pack of coyotes. Sometimes. But be ready and watch downwind. Or are they different with different meaning? Perhaps I shoul have titled this thread Lone Howl vs. Interrogation to be more correct in terminology. Todd

[ November 02, 2005, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 02, 2005, 06:12 AM:
 
To me, yes. I'm not familiar with what a lot of guys call the interrogation howl. The rationale for my position is simple: transients and nomadic individuals are generally non-vocal, whereas all the goings on you hear are territorial packs or individuals either communicating with one another, or to other neighboring packs, as a means of maintaining spatial distribution, etc. When you lone howl, you are immediately recognized as someone the residents are unfamiliar with and they want to identify you before closing in. So, they move downwind to get your stink, meet up there with others in the family if they're available, and make their approach under the radar. Probably an oversimplification, but my interpretation nonetheless. I can't guarantee that they'll approach from downwind, but all of mine without exception either have, or have been headed there when I cut them off. And the howls aren't guaranteed to make them show as I've called over cover I knew held a coyote yet produced no results. When it works, it works well. When it doesn't, it's just like any other sound.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 02, 2005, 07:24 AM:
 
Baldknobber,
The coyote language idea is mostly a marketing tool. The most important thing in howling is to sound like a strange coyote in the area.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 02, 2005, 11:58 AM:
 
Todd and Lance,
the lone howl is simply a howl issued by a single coyote as opposed to a group howl which is two or more coyotes issuing lone howls together.
WT lists 33 vocalizations in their catalog, 18 of which are lone howls with names such as female territorial howl and female invitation howl and male dominion howl etc. etc.
Whether anyone can really identify the specific meaning of a howl just by hearing it is very doubtful. I cannot, and I hear them howl daily. I can recognize the assembly howl in the evening from the resident pach here at the house but it sounds different from the assembly howl that we heard from a pack in southern Az. last year. Individual modification to a universal vocalization.
Dr Lehner wrote:
"The large intra-individual variations of howls might obscure the large inter-individual differences among coyotes."
That means simply that there is so much difference in the way coyotes howl that the scientists really don't know if those differences are in the howls or in the way coyotes issue them or a combination of the two. Remember that the next time someone says they blew a female invitation howl or a male dominion howl.
Use the yip howl to locate and use a non-aggressive high pitched lone howl that winds down and tapers off to attract them. It's just that simple.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 02, 2005, 01:23 PM:
 
"That means simply that there is so much difference in the way coyotes howl that the scientists really don't know if those differences are in the howls or in the way coyotes issue them or a combination of the two. Remember that the next time someone says they blew a female invitation howl or a male dominion howl.
Use the yip howl to locate and use a non-aggressive high pitched lone howl that winds down and tapers off to attract them. It's just that simple."
---------------------------
I agree with that statement. Anyone who is interested in howling coyotes to the gun should read this thread. It is likely the best advice on howling that you will ever see.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 02, 2005, 01:29 PM:
 
Is the female invitation howl just a coyote asking the neighbor to stop over for coffee? I believe thats what Bill Austin thought.

Dennis
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on November 02, 2005, 02:19 PM:
 
No Dennis, I think he thought it was for a little more than coffee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 02, 2005, 02:46 PM:
 
Greenside,
Bill Austin didn't know for sure either.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 02, 2005, 03:19 PM:
 
Good summary, Rich.

Again, the point is to submit the sound of a strange coyote into the area to compel the resident coyotes to investigate. Doesn't matter if it's long and shortly tapered, or rise fast and drop down slowly. Just as long as it sounds like a howl. Higher pitch is better because it sounds more like a young or female coyote and will be non-threatening to the entire age spectrum.

To me, the incredibly interesting thing about coyote howling is not so much that they use the exact sound from region to region, but that the general sound invokes the same general response regardless of where is is offered. Anyone that fails to at least explore the merits of howling coyotes is really cheating themselves out of a great hunting experience. Then again, there are a lot of these tactics that seem to challenge some folks' willingness to step outside the box.
 

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Posted by Rob (Member # 75) on November 02, 2005, 04:59 PM:
 
The female invitation is a companionship seeking call...young males make invitation howls to...Bill Austin had a tape called companion seeking call and his female invitation tape..they both sound the same...two tapes same call = more sales..I agree with Rich Cronk lone howl,female invitation, companionship call all the same to me
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 02, 2005, 06:04 PM:
 
Lance, I agree with all of your post except the statement that it doesn't matter what kind of lone howl you use.
I am convinced that an alarm howl exists and it sounds very, very similar to the assembly howls that I have heard (and observed) Short, fast rise, flattens off and ends abruptly. I have never called in a coyote after that howl was issued and passed along and I have never been able to pull off an ugly cow after that howl. A worse effect than a warning bark or challenge howl. Subsequently I stay away from that type of howl while calling them in.
Perception of aggression is very important. So much so that Scott said that he doesn't even use barks preceding his howls because he believes some coyotes interpret them as aggressive, I agree.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 02, 2005, 06:23 PM:
 
arroooo...arrrrrooooo..yip.yip arrrrrroooooo.........................................................waaaaaa...waaaaa....waaaaaa...oww...owwww..owwww.

Convince me that its any harder than that!

Dennis
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 02, 2005, 06:40 PM:
 
Point well taken, Rich. Howling too short isn't much of a problem for me. I worry that I run them out too long. Looking forward to tweaking my method in CO.

FIFTEEN DAYS!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 02, 2005, 06:54 PM:
 

quote:

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Convince me that its any harder than that!

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Grasshopper, wise man say; simple things seldom are.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 02, 2005, 07:01 PM:
 
Dennis, the "what" is simply put. But can you as easily explain the "why" to someone new to the art? All of us do a lot of things while calling that seem simple and easy to do, but in truth, everything we do is the culmination of years of failure tempered by a smattering of success here and there. What we see as easy can be overwhelming to someone who lacks the benefits of seeing the roads we've traveled.

Some of us like to know why we do what we do. Thus, the run ons.
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on November 02, 2005, 09:53 PM:
 
"Use the yip howl to locate and use a non-aggressive high pitched lone howl that winds down and tapers off to attract them. It's just that simple."

Very well put! I agree 100%

Rich,

I use puppy howls alot as well, and I no you do to, so do you think the puppy howls have the same effect of coyotes as a lone howl? I been using two puppy howls then an adult answer or just a little deep howl than the puppy howls and longer. It has been working very well for me on my stands. Whats you thoughts on the puppy howls?

Brent
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 03, 2005, 07:29 AM:
 
Brent, I use what I call a "lost puppy" howl at the beginning of all my howling series. It is a plaintive sounding howl, very high pitched that ends on an upward note, like a question. Apparently all predators consider it to be non-aggressive since I have video of 12 week old puppies coming to it, and fox and bobcat both come into distress calls after that howl. I follow it up with various other howls and vocalizations just to add to the mix. I don't believe that coyotes regard or consider vocalizations in specifics so much as in concepts, so I try to give them specific concepts to consider.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 08:05 AM:
 
Good discussion guys, keep talkin .
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 03, 2005, 08:43 AM:
 
2dogs,
The use of howlers for calling coyotes has been shrouded in mystery and half truth's for a very long time. The real truth has finally been revealed. The next thing to remember is that coyotes don't howl non stop. I like to howl two or three times and then shut up and watch in silence for a few minutes. Keeping your sounds as natural as possible will make it harder for coyotes to wise up to your ruse.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 03, 2005, 10:48 AM:
 

quote:

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The use of howlers for calling coyotes has been shrouded in mystery and half truth's for a very long time.

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quote:

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The lone howl, as Rich taught me, rarely elicits a vocal response in my agricultural area.

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quote:

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One thing is usually true, a lone howl, or perhaps a lost pup howl(?) will not get you a vocal response

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quote:

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Every once in awhile I will get a vocal responce from a lonehowl, but not often

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quote:

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To me, the incredibly interesting thing about coyote howling is not so much that they use the exact sound from region to region, but that the general sound invokes the same general response regardless of where is is offered.

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quote:

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WE had some conversation along these lines a while back.

What Randy Anderson may describe as an "interrogation howl" another may say it's a female invitation, and a third would say the same sound is a domain howl. Maybe?

One thing is usually true, a lone howl, or perhaps a lost pup howl(?) will not get you a vocal response, so you are really making a mistake to be leaning against the truck for a couple minutes and then leaving because you expected an answer. You should be ready to kill a coyote if you use that howl, they won't answer you, but they could be right in front of you a lot sooner than you might expect.

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[ November 03, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2005, 11:28 AM:
 
To call coyotes with a lone howl while on stand:

A high pitched, non-modulating, long, drawn out tone lasting from five to ten seconds, fading. I can't describe what "I" regard as a lone howl, (or lost pup) any better than that.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 11:37 AM:
 
Rich C.,

10-4 on that, thanks.

You folks, have "enlightened myself" on this coyote callin business. It is much different than how I have hunted them.
Doubt I'll give it up soon.

Reminds me of the Fire/Rescue Service. No matter how much you know or have seen. You'll never have it completely understood or have "seen it all". Always something...to make ya say, "wow"
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 11:39 AM:
 
Hey, Scruff...pull up a chair
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 03, 2005, 11:55 AM:
 
No issue with that point Leonard. When I first started howling it didn't take me too long to realize they'd come in to a lone howl. Go out before light and howl 3 or 4 places and get some vocal responses and then go back to the first place and find the coyote standing on the road. Yes they will phsically respond to a lone howl.

My issue is that they will not respond vocally to a lone howl. That hasn't been the case for me.

When I started howling the only one I had was basically a lone howl, due to fact that I didn't have electronics or such. It's real hard to make a realistic group yip howl when you are by yourself blowing on the guts of a duck call or old stlye howler. If you wanted to sound like a "real coyote" you were pretty much limited to a lone howl or some un-named variation. So when I located it was with a lone howl and it has worked for me in the Dakota's, Wy, Mt.Ia and several other states for getting a vocal response.

I have used some of the locator tapes amd have had good luck with them. Used to wire a female jack in the rear left speaker of my truck. Borrowed an old JS type speaker from a neighbors loudspeaker system and pluged it to the the speaker jack. Just turned the fade and the balance on the truck radio to left rear, put the speaker out of the window, and hit play with the volume to the max. Coyotes would talk back.

Dennis
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2005, 12:06 PM:
 
Yeah, these always, never words tend to confuse things.

You will get a reply from a lone howl, or female invitation in a certain percentage of the attempts. But, like I said, they will likely be headed your way, with or without a vocal response.

I think you are doing the right thing by using a recorded sound to locate. You are right, hunting alone, it's hard to do a group howl. This is why I don't even bother to use a howler as a locator.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 03, 2005, 12:11 PM:
 

quote:

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Hey, Scruff...pull up a chair

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I'm sitting and I'm taking notes. This is good stuff! The next time we hunt (snow fly ) we'll have to do some "yip howls" on our howlers.

Hey, how do you do "yip howls"???? Would it be better to be seperated or together when doing this?

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 12:20 PM:
 
Yup Scruff, boatload of experience on this site. Thinking back now...I shoulda done a few things differently on some of my stands. Perhaps, that woulda made a difference.
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We'll see here, hopefully next wk. BTW, Snowfly = GOOD .

Going, to order my .243wssm AR upper here in a couple days. Should help on the long-ones, eh . .243 = < spinner-runners.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 03, 2005, 12:25 PM:
 
Dennis, on my video I call in a couple of coyotes with a rubber duckie. It happens. For the highest percentage of responses I will use my handcalls. Coyotes will respond vocally to lone howls, or to car doors slamming. It happens. For the highest percentage of responses I will use yip-howls.
Yip-howls can be performed alone. I used to make my howlers with a hole in the bottom like a saxaphone that could be covered with a thumb to alter the pitch and sound like a second howler. Now I just manipulate the bell with my hand and sound like as many as I want.
Scruffy, you can howl together or seperately, coyotes do.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 03, 2005, 12:33 PM:
 
I'm going to stick with the Wiley E theory on locating because it similiar to my ezperience.

When howling to locate, the farther you are from the coyote the more likely you'll be to get a vocal response with no pysical response and the closer you are the more likely you'll get a physical response with no vocal response.

Stay back and crank it up!

That's my story.

Edit: Rich, Actually I'm fairly good at that myself. On an open reed it's just pumping the voice in and out with on and off muting of the bell.

Dennis

[ November 03, 2005, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by pup (Member # 90) on November 03, 2005, 12:34 PM:
 
The "long and soft" howl, described as pup howls, has worked well here. Kinda like the "Noodle" golf ball. I have as was described earlier "cut" in on a group yip, with a little deeper lone howl than the pup , and have had success. I agree with the no response and silent downwind approach, except for a couple of longer encounters, one of which I was able to entice an adult alpha to answer and come to a challenge call. I think I just had a scrawny sounding challenge, I had given a lone long soft howl at first and killed the first one in, stayed on stand, and that pack "assembly howled" 5 minutes after shot. I lone howled then he challenged, I exchanged a few challenge howls with him, until he finally came in. How was I to know that to challenge back was low percentage? I had never had it happen before. Both above on video, from a couple years back. I have had a few challenge howling duels, this is the only one that came into view within rifle range. The other stayed behind the brush , and inspired , the "debate" in a thread somewhere here on similar howling questions and core areas. And no, I don't wish to go back through that one.

Good info and thread guys, thanks for the read.

later pup
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 03, 2005, 01:04 PM:
 

quote:

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When howling to locate, the farther you are from the coyote the more likely you'll be to get a vocal response with no pysical response and the closer you are the more likely you'll get a physical response with no vocal response.

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This struck me as ironic and confusing, "when howling to locate, the farther you are from the coyote...."

Since you know where the coyote is and are setting up away from him haven't you already "located" the coyote?

Or if you don't know where the coyote is how do you setup away from him?



And who is Wiley E.? An author? I'd rather read a book about coyotes than see a video anyday, but that's just me. Might be something I need to pick up to read while reclining next to the wood burner this winter!

later,
scruffy

[ November 03, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 03, 2005, 01:20 PM:
 
Greenside,
I think maybe we should remember that a "Lone" howl is just one coyote howling. I think that the lone howl which Rich H. is describing is the one I like to call the "Lonesome" howl. I have had a coyote or two howl back at me when using that sound, but I usually expect a silent approach if you know what I mean. It is rare for me to howl for purpose of "locating" coyotes except when trying to pin point den area's in spring or early summer.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 03, 2005, 01:25 PM:
 
scruffy,
Wiley E. is Scot H. of south dakota. He does a lot of animal damage control work, and is one of the most highly respected coyote men in the midwest.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 01:28 PM:
 
This discussion, reminds me of packs of neighboring coyotes...trying to communicate .
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This "yip-howl" are you guys. Talking about a fast-session of yips that [flow] into a howl . Thats what I''m understanding anyway.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 03, 2005, 01:34 PM:
 

quote:

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Wiley E. is Scot H. of south dakota. He does a lot of animal damage control work, and is one of the most highly respected coyote men in the midwest.

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Thanks for the info!!! Does he have a book or video or is there a forum on the web he hangs out on alot?

Midwest calling information isn't quite as plentiful as western or eastern so I'm interested in any and all I can get. And the more respected the better!

later,
scruffy

[ November 03, 2005, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 03, 2005, 01:42 PM:
 
Rich C

I guess I'm not familiar with a "Lonesome Howl", or at least by definiton. For me a lone howl is nothing more than the classic two or three howls(usually three) with a couple of barks(yips) tied into one of them for good measure.

Dennis
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 03, 2005, 01:49 PM:
 

quote:

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I guess I'm not familiar with a "Lonesome Howl", or at least by definiton. For me a lone howl is nothing more than the classic two or three howls(usually three) with a couple of barks(yips) tied into one of them for good measure.

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That was what I thought a "lone howl" was also, and that some people called it "lone howl", being short for "lone-some howl". I thought it was the same thing.

Are we wrong???

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 02:06 PM:
 
Hey, Scruff. The last time we went callin over in Tama County. We got those coyotes & a couple farm dogs howling at us.

I'm betting that lone deep howl in the middle. Of that timbered section, was a wolf or a crossbreed.

Dog or coyote howl's. Don't make the hair stand up, on the back of my neck.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 03, 2005, 02:12 PM:
 
2dogs, agree, it wasn't coyote or dog! That's the one and only time a howl has raised the hair on the back of my neck and you could "feel" his howl, even at the far distance he was. And everything else felt it as well, the deer down below us disappeared and the other coyotes went silent. If not full wolf probably something like my uncle had decades ago, part wolf, part german shepard or something.

Edit: and we did alot of yipping with a few howls, and we got pretty loud and pretty excited in our howling if I remember right. We certainly had everything awake and alert!

Oh, and the time before that we howled in a hunter and his son...

One of these days we'll howl in a coyote, LOL!

later,
scruffy

[ November 03, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 03, 2005, 02:23 PM:
 
This thread explains soooo much!! (and makes it simple too).

I've had a couple of times when I parked the truck to camp for the night and thought 'I wonder if anybody's home?' Blowing the howler brought no response. Thinking that I'd give any other campers something to wonder about (in an area that hasn't seen an elk in a thousand years), I blew an elk bugle on the howler and had coyotes howl back.

There will be some changes in my calling / howling routine next time out. Thanks guys!!!!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 03, 2005, 03:13 PM:
 
Dennis,

I guess I ought to qualify my statement about no responses. Sitting here reminsiscing over the past four years of calling, I can recall four instances where I rece'ved a vocal reply back to lone howls. All four instances were territorial challenges with only one resulting in an approach, but no closer than about 400 yards. In the vast majority of cases for me, the lone howl has elicited a response, and when they've come in, it has generally been with head down at a lope moving toward my downwind. In that sense, Wiley's statement is spot on. I wonder in what way territorial boundary lines effect the probability that a coyote will respond verbally versus approach? If you're in their house, they probably check you out. If you're over the line, they maybe answer you. We'll have to have Higgins ask them. :)I can honestly say that the coyotes around here are very tight lipped and will rarely answer back any type of call, i.e., sirens, train whistles, etc.. In fact, I've never heard one sound off in the broad daylight. On the other hand, I watched someone else use what was really nothing more than a lone howl on the high plains of eastern Colorado one night and after about fifteen minutes, the entire countryside lit up. I think the response rates are a function of local circumstances and don't doubt for a minute that you've had good luck in your area. In mine? I haven't heard it produce results enough for me to place any level of confidence in lone howls as locators.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2005, 04:20 PM:
 
Dennis, my experiences with vocal responses to lone howls are in line with yours. I generally don't chime in on these threads, in keeping with my policy of preferring not to show my ignorance. Better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, and all that. But, it really blows my mind to hear so many experienced howlers reporting such a dearth of vocal response to the lone howl. Because, I get vocal responses to my lone howls "most" of the time? By that I mean, if I issue a lone howl in an area I know to hold coyotes, anytime from dusk till shortly after dawn, I fully expect not only to get a vocal response, but to get multiple responses. It happens I'd say more than 60% of the time.

Lance, what you described above: "On the other hand, I watched someone else use what was really nothing more than a lone howl on the high plains of eastern Colorado one night and after about fifteen minutes, the entire countryside lit up." This is what I consider normal, based on my own experiences.

That said... The group yip howl recording on my Foxpro works even better.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 03, 2005, 04:32 PM:
 
DAA-

If that's normal for you, you're a lucky guy. For me, it was an exciting experience to have them engaged like that. You just don't get that around here. I've tried many nights in good coyote country.
 

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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on November 03, 2005, 04:35 PM:
 
Rich H. , you wrote that the lost pup howl is a high pitched plaintive, or lonely howl with an upnote at the end. Am I to assume that it is somewhat shorter in length since it is a puppy howl? Are you using more than one to start off a stand. What do you normally follow this up with, assuming that you have to make a follow up call? Todd.

Scruffy, welcome to the board. If you hang around here long enough you will gain some insight.

I have had good luck yip howling with the two mouthpieces from the Primos Lil' Dog howler. That is not the truest sounding howler in the world, like say a good cow horn howler, but it is easy to blow. I stick both mouthpiecs in my mouth at once and yiyiyi on one while the other goes wooooo woooooooo. It seems to work. that is the way I work without the help of electronics or another hunter, since I nearly always hunt alone. My wife says every time I do that it reises the hairs on the back of her neck.

[ November 03, 2005, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2005, 05:46 PM:
 
The thing about a lone howl, if you get a vocal response, more power to you, but to think you can use it as a locator, instead of a locator type howl, that is where I disagree. A coyote will come to the lone howl. If that's what you want, fine. But, if you are just jacking around, too dark to see or have no plans to kill the animal; maybe you are educating them unnecessarily?

I'd rather use a hand howler as a hunting tool and like DAA said, the locator howling sound on a Foxpro is better for the purpose and they (probably) won't be disturbed enough to converge on your location. It's all about intent.

Man! These things are very specific, but difficult to define and get on the same page!

I think there might be a real good educational seminar next week, somewhere down in AZ for anyone in the neighborhood.

Good hunting. LB

[ November 03, 2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on November 03, 2005, 05:57 PM:
 
I find it interesting how coyotes in differant parts of the country respond/ or don't respond during daylight! Around my stomping grounds, it's a common accurance for coyotes to be heard howling at 10 a.m., as well as 3 or 4 p.m.!

One tactic that I have learned over the last couple of years that seems to work very well, is what I call a female invitation, like a lonesome high pitched howl, but cut short. I use this howl at the brginning of a set primarily in Feb., and have often gotten a single male to respond. And every time I get a vocal, always a single howl too, I have called in a single male coyote! I've had them respond vocally at all times of the day like this!

Also, I don't see/hear anyone talking about the, from a lack of a better term, breeding yips that I have witnessed, also seen on a Randy A. video. This is another sound that I have had good results with late season! It's just a series of high pitched fading yips. Anyone else use this sound?
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 03, 2005, 06:05 PM:
 
Thanks Dave, I needed that. I was real close to calling BS on that one and I still might do it. Coyotes can and will respond big time to what I call "Lone Howls".

Dennis
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on November 03, 2005, 06:39 PM:
 
Maybe instead of names or labels for the "different" howls we should be expressing ourselves in syllibles??? The guys selling things aren't here, yet...

Like sharp bark, sharp bark, loooooong howl... done in a high pitched manner... or is it just a long hoooowl, done in a sharp high pitched manner???? Start softly, build in the middle, taper off in the middle?

All of the names make my head spin. I see some great callers saying it's not that tuff, and I'd never argue with that ... but what do I know about howling??????

Methinks that there are one or two basic sounds that will do the trick....???? Some would have us believe that there is much more to it than that?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2005, 06:46 PM:
 
Dennis, you can call BS anytime it suits you, this howling is real hard to nail down.

You are aware that some people report that their coyotes are completely silent, with or without prompting?

I'd like to know what your intentions are when you do your "lone howl"? Are you hunting or are you locating or don't you see the distinction?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 03, 2005, 06:55 PM:
 
Dennis, I don't follow you. What or who are you calling BS and why?
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 03, 2005, 07:05 PM:
 
Dave, the last thing anyone is ever going to call you is stupid. I wish you would join in more often, you have so much to contribute. Lets discuss your technique and lone howls for example, I'll bet we can learn something by looking at them.
First would you describe the lone howl that you get frequent vocal responses to. Do you precede it with herald barks? Does it rise sharply and end abruptly?
Do you have an idea why coyotes would respond vocally to it?

Dennis I would like to ask you the same questions if you get the chip off your shoulder. No one is doubting you. We're discussing coyotes for heaven's sake.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 03, 2005, 07:34 PM:
 
Perhaps I've already told this huntin jaunt story.
-------------
Winter/snowfly pre-dusk;

Spotted a coyote 1/2 mile away. I stopped to glass him & the surrounding terrain over well. [I planned on stalking in].

Cruised slowly up the road, he's balled-up/head raised eyeing me. Laying 200yrds staight East of the North/South road I was on. I drove on past him.

I parked a 1/4 mile down past him on the roadway. I slowly walked back down the road[which was snow covered, but loud]. As I'm getting near, he gets up. Walks slowly farther into the section a little ways. Sits down & does the following.

Bark...Bark...Ut,ERRRRrrrr,ERT! He can't see me. I'm all White head to toe[including my rifle & sling]. I'm completely out in the open, he's across a wide shallow valley on the opposing hillside. So he could obviously hear me.

I just happen to have a "mouse-squeeker" in my breast pocket. So I pull it out slowly & mimmick his same vocals, useing the squeeker.

He continues to respond exactly the same. We exchange this same scenario. Back & forth for quite awhile.

His barks sounded exactly like a [Fox Terrier] & his howl sounded exactly like an old rooster chicken crowing.

I figured he was challenging me. What say you all?
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2005, 08:32 PM:
 
Rich, I'll give my best shot at answering your questions.

Q. First would you describe the lone howl that you get frequent vocal responses to. Do you precede it with herald barks?

A. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I actually used to use the herald barks a lot more often than I do now, largely due to advice from you and Wiley about not wanting to sound aggressive. I honestly can't say whether it makes a difference in how often I get a vocal response. It probably does, but I've not been attentive enough to take note.

Q. Does it rise sharply and end abruptly?
A. No. I try to make them sound just as you describe a lone howl earlier in this thread. Slow rise, slow taper off.

Q. Do you have an idea why coyotes would respond vocally to it?
A. No, not really. All I have is guesses. I've gotten all different kinds of responses, from threat barks to group yip howls (the most common). My guess is that the different responses simply reflect different circumstances and times of year or day. The most common scenario where I get a response, is to issue a lone howl after dark in an area I know has a lot of coyotes, and I'll get a group yip howl in response. Sometimes, the kind of response Lance described earlier. With first one group yip howl, and then all the neighboring groups responding to that group. Once I do get a group yip howl response, I'll often start throwing aggressive threat bark howls back and that sometimes shuts them up but other times gets them whipped into a frenzy. That's when it's most likely that the neighboring groups will join in too. As bad as my hearing is, I often wonder if there isn't a chain reaction going on for miles and miles, with groups joining in way beyond my hearing. At least occasionally, I bet that does happen. Almost anytime I have someone else with me, they will hear coyotes howling that I can't hear, too (my hearing really IS BAD). Bottom line, my best guess as to why they respond? Because there are a lot of them there, and they are pretty darn vocal in general, and it just doesn't take much to get them going.

Leonard has brought up what are the circumstances, or intentions when these howls are going on. For me, most of the time, this is purely for my entertainment. It's usually after dark and I just want to see if I can get a bunch of coyotes to howl for shits and grins. The areas I hunt, I know darn well there are coyotes there that will hear me, and like Leonard I don't expect them to still be in the same place the next morning, so I'm not really locating per se. Just having fun with the coyotes. Although, there have also been plenty of times in unfamiliar areas that I really am curious to see how many responses I will (or will not) get.

Daytime, howling on a stand, vocal responses are a lot less common, but do still happen, not often enough to call it common, but enough that I don't consider it all that unusual either. I'm talking about a vocal response to a lone howl in the middle of the day now. Those responses are just like the howls I occasionally get in the middle of the day while using only distress sounds. Those times I do get a response while on stand like that, those coyotes come in most of the time. And just to clarify, I'm not talking about the alarm howl that you hear during the day, but responding single yip howls or a more aggressive howl, short of the alarm howl.

Really, I have no answers. Like I said earlier, every time this subject comes up, it just amazes me how totally different my experiences have been compared to what most of you guys are reporting. Just like Dennis said, I started out howling just not knowing any other howl, or knowing any better, and the coyotes answered, and I never thought this might be unusual.

And, I should point out again, that for the last year or so, I've been using the group yip howl on my Foxpro much more than howling myself. It does get responses more often, no doubt about it.

- DAA
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2005, 08:40 PM:
 
Slight side track, but I'm curious...

The kind of scenario that Lance first described, with multiple groups doing group yip howls at once. How often do you guys get that in the morning while using just distress sounds? There are a couple of places I call, where early in the year you can almost count on that happening on the first stand in the morning, and some days for the first two or three stands.

Considering how easy it is to get a whole valley lit up like that with just a few rabbit screams, it really doesn't seem all that remarkable that they'd react in a similar fashion to a strange, albeit "lone" howl?

- DAA
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 03, 2005, 09:54 PM:
 
DAA, unsolicited yip-howls are generally the culmination of a greeting ceremony. When it is issued other packs that have assembled respond by joining in. For a wave of howling from pack to pack "all the way to the ocean", as Major Boddiker imagined it, to occur all of the packs would have to have assembled. That usually occurs sometime before dawn and right after dusk which is why it is more common to hear those vocalizations at that time.
Two years ago I set up before light and waited until I could barely see through the camera before howling with a Lohman proto-type that varmit hunter designed for them, at which two packs ,south and west, began yip-howling. I dinked with them for about 30 minutes or so, when a mature coyote broadcast an assembly howl only about 100 yards away in a wash to the east. A coyote that was 50 or so yards away that I had been tapeing stood up, stretched and yawned, then trotted toward the howl. After another 10 minutes or so tha pack began their greeting ceremony and I taped the whole thing all the way to the shreiking that sounded for all the world like a canine distress. It was actually highly excited yips and squeals. That pack remained together for an hour or so before moving off. I gave the tape to Tad Brown at Lohman and he used some of it for the instructional tape that comes with their "SHE HOWLER". I wish I had copied all of it and kept it. The point is that when you get an answer to your howls it doesn't mean all of the coyotes in the area are answering. It does mean that you may continue to get a response in that area as much as two hours later. As I've stated elsewhere I hear them assemble and yip-howl at all hours of the night. The dogs and I howl from the back patio fairly frequently and very rarely ever get an immediate vocal response. But sometime during the next few hours the coyotes will show up at the back wall and begin their yip-howling.
Leonard visited me last year about this time and as we admired his new truck in my driveway, about 4 pm., I used his howler to blow a lone howl. Within only a minute or so a coyote walked across the dirt road 150 yards or so south of the house heading into the desert to get downwind. It moved silently, which is normal. No vocal response.
TRhat's what I expect from a lone howl.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2005, 11:29 PM:
 
Yes, I remember that. Done on my very expensive and exquisite Higgins Howler, I was surprised Rich didn't have his on him?

I'm sure the coyote knew we were there, but he managed to act nonplussed, as did I. The Professor was "amped" though.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on November 03, 2005, 11:33 PM:
 
I will haft to agree that a when I use a lonehowl, I expect a responce from the coyotes. Not very often do I get a vocal responce, but more for them to slip into the call (most of the time headed down wind)But not always. And from time to time I will get a vocal responce. Down in western Ky, I get alot of vocal responces from coyotes at all times of the day. I have alot of footage of howling with coyotes at noon. Here were Im at in Ohio,a vocal responce to a lonehowl just dont happen very often. But thats ok I set up for this.

I did notice that out in Az last year, vocal responce was fairly common to a lone howl or a couple puppy howls. And sometimes not.

Me and Tyler had a coyote come into howling that was very shy, not down wind but just real layed back, smelling the ground, not real exited, we shot some nice video of this before I droped him with the 22-250. And he never even tryed to get down wind at all.

The coyotes around the house wont howl at much at all anymore, I have worn them out I gess, the only time the tend to howl is when I hear the assembly howl, or if they get all stired up about something or the other. Use to It was an everynight thing for me to go out and howl with them. Now if they are howling and I join in they just shut up!

When Im out locating in the spring or summer, I never leave the area im locating in for at least 30 min. alot of the time I wont get a responce for 15 min or so, I would gess they relocate in the home range before they give away there location. And I always use yip howls for this. Sometimes moving up and down the road as I am howling.

Rich,

Puppy howls have worked very well for me here, I run them alot. But I keep them high pitched and shorter than a lone howl with alot of taper on the end of them and no barks. I will run two of them, then a couple barks and a lower pitched lonehowl, very non aggresive. Lots of taper up and good taper down.

I also remember getting to hear some good howling from your local packs off you back porch. You getting any good recording of them?

And I sure would of liked to of had a look at that footage of those coyotes as they got togeather! Had to be awsome stuff!

The coyote last weekend, was a yoy coyote, it came in very slow, on the down wind side, and stuck to the cover, would not cross the open. I ended up shooting him at 150 yards on the edge of the cover. I started that stand with Rabbit destress, with no visable responce after a few series and 15 min on the stand I started the howling. He showed in just a few min. But he could of been coming anyway I dont know.

Brent

[ November 03, 2005, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on November 04, 2005, 07:35 AM:
 
I grew up hunting in two distinctly different habitats for coyotes. Out West up in the Texas Panhandle coyotes are often times vocal all day. Out their they are also more likely to respond vocally as well as respond by showing up to just about any type howl. They tend to respond better to the non-threatening type lone howls though but just about any type howl will often get some type of responses.

On the other hand, here where I currently live in East Texas they seldom howl during daylight, and seldom answer to any attempts at provoking a vocal response. They will respond to howls though by silently working the wind and very cautiously using the available cover. This gets you busted more often than not unless the set up is perfect. The terrain however makes this almost impossible and the odds are way in the coyotes favor. What they do more often than not is wait for darkness and then approach. All this makes for a very time consuming and unproductive way to call coyotes in this habitat. Prey distress sounds however are very effective and in my mind more reliably call coyotes in this part of the country. With prey distress sounds they often times come in lots more willingly and with less caution. This also gets them there faster and they are easier to handle than a howled in coyote.

I have my own theories as to why coyotes in these two habitats act so different. Survival, I believe is the main reason that coyotes do anything. Here in the Eastern part of the state they deal with more threats and have become very paranoid. (I know most Western coyotes have been very persecuted for decades and show this paranoia as well). They have learned to keep their mouth shut in order to survive. One reason I believe is because of visibility. These coyote’s cant see very far and danger can be very close, thus they keep quiet and very alert. This is not so in the more open parts of the West. With lots of people/danger around they just can't afford to announce their presence. I also believe they are more inclined to carve out their core areas and defend them more than the Western coyotes though out the year. When you howl to these coyotes they simply go to their core areas and silently wait it out on the defensive. If your close enough you may get a challenge howl out of him but he ain’t coming. They simply don't interact with other groups as much are as well as the western coyotes. Now if your lucky enough or good enough you can get very close to these core areas and threaten them and get a response, but again the terrain in these core areas give the coyote the upper hand most every time. You are much better off staying on the edge of these areas and trying to call them out with a distress sound. I'm not saying that coyote vocalizations can't or don't work, in fact quiet the opposite is true. In certain circumstances they are very effective in tight cover, but only if you know the area and the coyotes well enough to get the odds in your favor. Howling here typically just gets the coyotes alarmed and makes them go to their core area and set up their defenses. If you’re off a few yards you won't see this happen and are very likely to get your self busted. East Texas has a network of roads with lots of houses. In most places houses are within 1/4 mile of each other and you can seldom go 1/2 a mile in any direction without crossing a public road. Coyotes tend to hole up in small tracts of tight cover between these roads and houses with just about every avenue of a potential threat covered Getting yourself into position to get them to respond to another coyote is tough, but they will more freely respond to a meal and with less caution.

Howling is a very effective way to call coyotes given the right circumstances, but in certain types of habitat, and coyotes conditioned differently it can be very tough and not very productive. I cringe every time I hear people say "I start every stand with a howl". That works great in many parts of the country but I believe it is very poor advise for other parts of the country. This is why I say I start every stand with a prey sound and then if that doesn't get a response I may go to the coyote vocals. Start with the high percentage call and go from there with the finesse calls.

I know I got off topic but I felt obliged to do so as I haven't diverted quiet as many threads as the rest of you pampas know it alls. Coyotes in different parts of the country are still just coyotes, but have adapted to very different sets of circumstances. The basics for calling and locating them are basically the same everywhere but need to be tailored to fit the way the coyotes have adapted. Humans need to learn from the coyotes and adapt their behavior as well or they won't be very succesfull trying to fool them into gun or camera range.

Byron
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 04, 2005, 08:21 AM:
 
Sorry for the apparent chip.

Do you have an idea why coyotes would respond vocally to it?(Lone Howl)

Yes, because the primary purpose in a real coyote, when Lone Howling, is to make contact with and identify coyotes that are in his immediate or adjoining areas. To put it simply, a coyote lone howls for the purpose of locating other coyotes. That's why it make sense that you can expect a vocal response to your lone howl

Dennis
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 04, 2005, 08:40 AM:
 
My calling area here in Iowa is a lot like what Byron describes. Lots of houses, lots of people and lots of spooky coyotes. My coyotes seem to become wise to distress crys a lot quicker than they wise up to coyote talk. When a coyote hears a stranger in their area, they seem inclined to check him out. What I like best about this thread is that we are helping people to learn that you do not need a college course in coyote language in order to make it work for you. If you can learn to make a lonesome sounding howl, and maybe some puppy squeals, then you can experience some success in howling up coyotes. Sure there are other coyote sounds you can use in certain circumstances, but time in the field will help you learn. Coyotes are the best teachers anyway.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 04, 2005, 09:00 AM:
 

quote:

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That's why it make sense that you can expect a vocal response to your lone howl

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I agree with everything but the "vocal" word. I believe some with respond vocally, depending on many factors and the mood of the coyote, but alot of the responding will not be vocal. It could be the coyote responding non vocally.

After reading Byron and everything elses threads the analogy came to mind that a lone coyote coming into an area is a lot like going alone into a bad part of town. Most people would keep there head down and pass through quietly, but some will yell out "Is anyone here???". The possible responses of the local "gang" might be to holler back with some smack about your momma, that they are going to kill you, and such, or they could holler back to each other to assemble and take a defensive posture to attack you if you approach deaper into their "turf". While some gang members will move quietly, knowing their turf like the back of their hand, to set up for an attack.

The response of the gang will depend alot on how you yell out "Hey, anyone here?" If you are scared the gang of thugs will be embolded. If you sound big and confident and that you can take on any foe, the gang might fall back in a defensive postion. If your question is somewhere in between, the gang may circle you catiously for a possible attack or yell back smack at you telling you to leave.

And to continue the "gang" analogy, some gangs are very strong, battle hardened, embolded because of the area they are in, the fights they've been in, etc. Their "turf" is constantly under attack from other gangs so they are very organized, effiecient, and don't mess around.

Some "gangs" are a joke, a group of thugs, unorganized, they don't have their territory challenged, therefore don't get in many fights/wars, they talk alot of smack but don't have the pressure from other "gangs" to battle harden them.

I believe this describes alot of coyote "gangs" as well. Some are pressured by other coyotes and have to defend their territory constantly from possible invaders. Others, possibly where the population is low, are not pressured by other coyotes and therefore aren't as apt to defend their territory at the drop of a hat. They'd be more likely to talk than fight.

Just one man's thoughts.

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 04, 2005, 09:41 AM:
 
Although I do enjoy callin. All of this "sifering" & figuring on what their thinking/doing, ect, ect.

Leads me back to, spot/stalking...pretty simplistic. See'em, stalk'em, bang'em .

You all, have brought forth many interesting points & observations. What an intriguing animal.

Callin in the fall, stalking come snowfly.
Doesn't get any better IMO. .
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 04, 2005, 10:12 AM:
 
2dogs, that stand you refered to yesterday, where we yip-howled and the coyotes responded and then the wolf, coy-wolf, dog-wolf, whatever it was, responded. If I remember right we tried every trick in our bag of tricks that stand, an array of rabbit, coyote pup in distres, even a doe in distress, and didn't get anything to respond (besides those deer coming in...). Then when we throught there weren't any coyotes in the square mile we were in we lit up our howlers with alot of yipping and howling. Then coyotes from all over lit up responding to us.

I now wonder what would have happened if we would have lonesome howled during that set. There were plenty of coyotes to come in and check us out if we had howled them in.

I also wonder how many other fruitless stands we've done that if we would have yip-howled at the end how many coyotes would have responded, having not responded to our other calls.

A few years ago when I did more full moon night hunting (back in my single days, LOL) I would howl or play the JS locator (locator worked alot better) to whip up the coyotes, determine where they were at to know which direction to face, then after they were good and whipped up start a distressed rabbit. If I could get a group whipped up they almost always came in. And on a couple occasions they when I had two "packs" whipped up both came in, one such encounter resulted in the packs getting into a brawl over the hill where I couldn't see it... I've also had a couple occasions where the packs would be whipped up, I'd start the rabbit, and a loner from the opposite direction would come in fast, trying to beet the packs in I guess. You just never know what's going to happen.

Maybe this winter if we have a sunup stand we can do some yip-howls, see what we can get stired up, and then get on the distress. See what happens.

And on some of the other stands try a few lonesome howls as the opener.

Our bag of tricks this year is now a lot bigger than the one we had last year!!!

Now as long as I don't miss the coyote like I did last year....

later,
scruffy

[ November 04, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 04, 2005, 01:51 PM:
 
To tell you the truth, I don't know this to be a fact, but have read that transient coyotes are not vocal, not wanting an ass kicking? That leads me to believe that a lot of the coyote communication is between family units, and within family units.

Commenting on what Byron said, differences between east and west Texas, I can see where the sheer distances involved would mean a need for long range communication. As a (for instance), I hear more unprovoked howling in Nevada than Arizona. Nevada is a lot more open, lacks trees and brush and the animals are scattered, more singles than doubles. I conclude that they range further apart during the night's hunt, and do a lot more communicating in order to assemble in the morning. Just a theory?

Now, getting back to Greeside's situation. I'm thinking he is hunting coyotes that aren't extremely educated and fearlessly howl back to a lone howl, even if they intend to approach? In my experience, they tend to do one or the other, but not both. There has been some talk here about core areas, where they can be defined, and that would certainly influence a coyote to respect boundaries, but they might not be able to help themselves in replying with some sassy backtalk.

I still say, and practice this. Long lone howls, without any barks or yips are for hunting. I seldom have a need for locating with howling, so don't do much of that unless I'm really stumped.

Well, as we have seen here, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat. Hope everybody can find some value and apply it?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 04, 2005, 01:51 PM:
 
Scruff, Myself & the neighbor guy been over in that same section, many times in the late pm. That section holds plenty of coyotes[constantly].

Those coyote will/have not [vocally] responded to yips/howls or distress sounds during any daylight hrs. [Only] right at dusk & a few minutes after. Thats it.

Neighbor guy, took his young Black Lab over there last fall[1-hr before dusk]. Had a pack sitting in a timber patch barking at his dog. He's in his Rag Ghilli, propped against a big Oak.

One male came out to confront his dog. He met up with a 90gr .243wssm Ballistic Tip, upside the Sternum. Game over.

I'm gonna hit that section hard, soon. Especially come snowfly

[ November 04, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 04, 2005, 02:49 PM:
 
Dennis, why, in your opinion, do you think coyotes respond vocally to your lone howls?
 

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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on November 04, 2005, 03:32 PM:
 
Rich, could go over the lost pup howls you use once more? Thanks, Todd.
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on November 04, 2005, 05:30 PM:
 
This topic really has me scratching my head...

My experience with using what I consider "Lone Howls" mirrors what Dennis and DAA have reported. I used to do some locating before daylight but found pretty quick that coyotes were answering, showing up and busting me as I stood howling beside the pickup in the predawn darkness. Now I never lone howl unless I am set up and ready to shoot. Or unless I just want to screw around and get some coyotes to answer. When I get coyotes that approach the lone howl only it is quite often a pair or more. Or possibly a lone older male coyote. When younger coyotes or females do happen come into the lone howl only they are coming slow and cautious.

I think in my case most of the time when I get physical and vocal responses it's coyotes coming in to chase or check out the new coyote on the block, or lonely coyotes wanting a friend. For me some of the best lessons have been spotting a coyote way off and than giving them the lone howl and watching their reaction.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 04, 2005, 06:36 PM:
 

quote:

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My experience with using what I consider "Lone Howls" mirrors what Dennis and DAA have reported. I used to do some locating before daylight but found pretty quick that coyotes were answering, showing up and busting me as I stood howling beside the pickup in the predawn darkness.

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Lonny, that's part of what I have been trying to say, here, in several ways. A better use of a lone howl is when you are actively hunting, rather than attempting to locate coyotes, because chances are very good that you have called them and they are coming.

Whereas. If you are locating, the plan is to go to where they are, and make a stand.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 04, 2005, 07:23 PM:
 
To redress some of the finer, less notable tangents mentioned here (and this place is all about tangents, ain't it?), I have a couple new questions.

1) Mention was made of using howls to call coyotes that were spotted out and about. I've had occasions where coyotes would hang up and after throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them, including total silence for a while, I've thrown a lone howl at them and only had them gimme a blank stare. On the other hand, I've given them a brief series of puppy ki-yi's and had them run past their own asses coming in. Has anyone else ever experienced this or seen this themselves, and if so, have you ever used the ki-yi as a stand alone sound for starting a stand?

2) Byron talks about how he's frequently seen coyotes respond to lone howls by relocating to their territorial core and establishing a defensive position. Have you ever used the lone howl to get those coyotes to relocate, then come back at a later time to a known core area, approached from another angle and used distress sounds or challenges to try and pick them up from where they've been "chummed" to congregate?

Just some thought to add a bit more juice to the debate.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 04, 2005, 07:42 PM:
 
#1 no

#2 no
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 04, 2005, 07:46 PM:
 
Anybody else going howling tomorrow morning?

I dug out and dusted off my JS CH1 howler (the supersized one with the big grey cone) and put it in my calling bag for tomorrow morning's calling. Atleast one, hopefully 2 stands.



later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 04, 2005, 07:59 PM:
 
Hmmm, appears my question was lost in the shuffle.

Q. Anyone [ever] heard a coyote, do two barks, followed by a [crowing] noise. Like a Rooster chicken?
 

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Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on November 04, 2005, 08:55 PM:
 
Kirby,
Never heard or seen anything like that. It probably suapected something out of wack but couldn't see or smell anything wrong. His marbles may not have been together being you just woke him up. I'm not a big fan of getting out of bed myself. lol

I've never located with the intent to hear coyotes, move close and call, and expect them to come in. I used to run a 70 mile oilfield road at night stopping every 10 or 15 miles to howl a few times to hear the groups fire up. It gave me an idea of how many there were and where they hung. I didn't expect them to be there when I called but it gave me a proximity.

As long as it's a calm dark night, they answer. moonlit nights are only slightly better than days. They don't speak during day here. Aside from the occational agitated coyote that I actually see howl during a pit stop on his way in.

I guess I don't quite understand all the lingo when it comes to howls. It seems in groups there's one or two that sound like several barks strung together. Yip howl I'm assuming? Anyway, the described lone howl is all I've ever used to locate, and it's always worked given a dark calm night so this is all new to me.

TR,
I've tried that sound and gear howlers to make it, but the variation is so close to the super high pitched coyote distress sounds, I find myself in distress mode before I know it. That high pitched stuff is something I've had a lot of luck with though when using howlers.

Brad
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 04, 2005, 09:21 PM:
 
Yup Brad, That coyote would move a short ways, turn my direction. Then sit down & go through that same sequence, over & over.

I have him on video/audio. Pretty grainy but still pretty cool. I laughed all the way home about it.

Of all the coyotes I've ever heard. Never heard that "crowing noise" before or since.

I'm sure I coulda tagged him, but the entertainment value was priceless. Seen him mutiple times in that same section. Always on the move & watching my truck.

Perhaps this snowfly, we'll meet again.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on November 05, 2005, 07:05 AM:
 
And speaking of pitch, do you guys have more success with high pitched lonehowls, or low pitched howls. Seems I rarely use low pitched howls.

Brad, you're right, that high pitched breeding sound can turn into a distress sound pretty easy. The strange part to me about using it, is I have had more females fall to it than males?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 05, 2005, 09:32 AM:
 
Again, no expert here, but it seems to me that the best place for a low pitched howl is a challenge, if you know how to handle that particular sound?

Every other useful "hunting" sound is high pitched, meant to replicate a young, non threatening animal.

Now, if you are locating for purposes of walking or driving in the direction of the animals that returned your howl, it probably doesn't matter if your howls are imitating a mature animal. Just speculation on my part because I don't find "locating" to be particularly useful.

Why? Because in some of my areas, the coyotes are too timid to respond (vocally) to any howl, regardless of pitch. Does the moon actually influence the nature of the responses we get to howling? Could be? It's an interesting thought.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 05, 2005, 05:55 PM:
 
I would have to say that my Lonesome howls are medium in pitch most of the time. I believe that the non aggressive inflection in a lonesome howl is important. When I resort to challenge type bark/threat howls, I will often use both high and low pitched types.
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on November 05, 2005, 10:06 PM:
 
I HATE THEM!..I HATE THEM!..I HATE THEM!..POTATO CHIPS AND PRETZELS!! This evening i asked my youngest son to go calling with me..I had this wonderfull spot picked out..I went through the details on how we would go about-sneaking in-no talking-load the gun up,before we got there,and etc...Well the plan was good,but!..THOSE DRY SUNSUBITCHEN LEAVES!!and dry STICKS!UNDER THE LEAVES!!..Every step was like stepping on a fresh bag of CHIPS,on top, of' a bag of PRETZELS!..Well anyhow,we made it to the logging road,to where i wanted to set up at..I stretched out the cord from my,JS-PM-"You guessed it",more Crunching!..Everthing is set up and i'm ready to let fly with a good long smooth howl-[me'not the PM]-I did the one that slowly rises in pitch and then slowly comes back down and ends..this is the howl i've been using for the last few years and i expect a response'if coyotes are anywhere around when i use it..Most of the time they will answere that howl,'vocally',morning,evening,or night!.."Roughly"one minuite after the howl,a coyote answeres me,about 150yds.to my right,then a few seconds later the rest of the pack opened up..I waited about 5 min.'nothing'..I then go to the JS rodent sound,"nothing shows?"..I try puppy distress and whimpers...Whoopee,they open up again!..The male moves in 25 yards closer,but the leaves on the trees are blocking our view..He refuses to come any closer..We sit and wait and wait'nothing!..Then all of a sudden they start yipping and howling on there own!! "never had this happen before!"I had some more tricks in the bag to try,but decided against it...It was getting to dark to see,and we had a lot of potato chips and pretzels to step on 'before we got back to the truck.

WELL!...WHAT WOULD YOU BLAME IT ON???
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 06, 2005, 01:07 AM:
 
damn littering
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on November 06, 2005, 06:51 AM:
 
I feel your pain Melvin. I have to deal with them dry leaves twigs and sticks as well. This morning we had a light rain and this quiets things down a bit, but it's deer season and my wifes turn to hunt while I watch the kids (Hope she gets a big'un, then it will be my turn the rest of the season . Back to the hunt. What you experienced is what I experiece frequently in the evenings here in East Texas. They just simply wait until after dark and all quieten down to approach and sniff around. This is also why I almost always start with a distress sound. If this doesn't work I usualy mix in some coyote pup distress, with the rabbit. Still don't work I may howl. They just respond more freely, faster, less apprehinsive, or however you want to characterize it to prey distres sounds. Like I said in my earlier post on this subject everything a coyote does revolves around survival, and eating is at the top of the list. They just simply don't respond to another coyote or potential threat in the same way as they do to a meal. I have seen coyotes in other parts of the country come in all jubilant to the sound of another coyote but never, that I can remember, in timber. They usually take for ever and come very cautious. The terrain has you at a big disadvatge when they do this. This is also not in your favor if the sun is fading from sight. There are exceptions and certain circumstances that will get immediate responces sometimes. Close proximaty to the coyote is one and pretty difficult with dry leaves lying every where. Agressive natured coyotes is another execption, but they are removed early from the gene pool around here . Most of the coyotes in my neck of the woods however are extremely paranoid and take for ever to approach another coyote, if they approach at all. When calling in the evening they simply have time and the coming darkness on their side.

Last Saturday morning on my first stand of the morning I was calling into a wooded draw that I positively knew held a coyote or two. We slipped in but somehow were busted. She however, I don't thick, got a positive ID of us. As we settled into the fence row we had chosen to make our stand in she began to threat bark at us. I let her go on for a couple of minutes and started with a rabbit distress. This just aggitated her more. After a minute or so I threw in some coyote pup distress mixed with the rabbit then went silent (She got more aggitated). I told my buddy to get comforatble as we were going to wait her out. After about 10 minutes of silence, curiosity had got the best of her and she poked here head out of the wooded draw. I watched her for a minute or two looking to see if she was alone and then shot her. This senario has played it self out so many times it's not funny. Most places I call into I know holds coyotes. When they don't come for what ever reason. I just sit and give them a few more minutes. Curiosity will often times get the best of them. Mornings are great for this as the sun and time are not a factor.

Byron

[ November 06, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 06, 2005, 08:24 AM:
 
Melvin,

I'd tell you what happened to me an hour ago, but the sting is still awfully sharp. Right now, I don't know if I should cry or laugh. I can say I cussed a lot... a LOT!!!. Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that it involved more than one coyote and the fact that I ain't busy skinning today.

[ November 06, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on November 06, 2005, 08:32 AM:
 
Here are a few pictures from that stand I described above. Thought they might ad some visuals to the story, and I figured you might enjoy them.

Here she is when she came out for a look.


Here she is taking possession a 60 grain V-Max.



.



Byron

[ November 06, 2005, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
 

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Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on November 06, 2005, 09:49 AM:
 
One more post and I'll shut up. So with that said think about this for a while. On the successful stands where you howled first and then went to the distress sounds, do you think the howls made any difference at all? On the stands where you did the same routine, but called nothing, did the howl have a negative effect? Would the coyote have come anyway with out the howl? Would he maybe come in more eager with or without the howls? When you howl and get a responce do you think you could have got the same responce if the sound was recorded and played backwards? My point is it could be a triggered responce much like responces from sirens, trains or other sources.

I built some fence for a guy that had a cage full of gibbons (Yeah the monkeys). Every afternoon they would howl and often times the coyotes would fire up. They sounded horrible but still got responces.

I'm positive that coyotes communicate using different pitches, tones and inflections. I'm also certain most experienced coyote hunters can mimic these sounds. What we can't do is interact with them by showing ourselves or giving them a nose full without getting busted while doing it. In my experience this is key. Without a visual conformation or scent conformation howled coyotes don't tend to get as close as coyotes called with prey distress sounds. They just don't seem to need the same level of conformation when using prey distress sounds. Howling certainly adds a different and useful demention to your calling arsenal but in my experience it take longer to get responces and tends to get you busted more. Howling comes in handy for sure sometimes and has made the difference for me on more stands than I can count, but I certainly don't howl on every stand and see no need to do so.

I remember when bugling for elk first got so popular. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry got him a bugle and hit the woods. Very soon it became very tough to pull in a bull with a bugle. Many more elk are called in and shot then and now with a simple, plain, vanilla, cow call. Bugles still work, but not nearly as well as they did before everybody hit the mountains blowing them at every bull in the woods. Howling for coyotes is no different in my eyes. It should be used when the circumstances call for it. Just ask Randy Anderson how effective howling is now that everybody in his county bought one of his howlers and hit the woods. I know, I know, rabbit distress sounds will educate them too, but here is my answer to that. More people get busted using howlers than any other call because of many factors I've already covered. period.

One more thought on coyotes responding to howls. Curiosity no doubt calls lots of coyotes. This is why I don't believe it is that important what you say with your howls most of the time. Some people have talked themselves into believing they called the coyote because of something they said with their howler as if they can speak coyote language when actually the coyote didn't understand a damn thing they said and only responded out of curiosity. I enjoy trying new things and learning from other experiences and like to think I have an open mind on things, but it is my firm belief after thirty years of calling, if it is your goal to call up and kill coyotes you should use the most efficient means possible for doing so. For me it has been the plain old vanilla rabbit. Now if you want to howl them all in be my guest, my hats off to you because it is certainly a challenge. For now I'll stick mainly to what produces the most consistent results for me and leave the howling for when I feel its called for.

Byron
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on November 06, 2005, 04:00 PM:
 
Byron,...when i got home and thought it over,there was 3 things that went wrong on that stand.
1.The coyotes were to close
2.The dry leaves and snapping sticks under them.
3.You are right,i shouldn't have howled.

If it would have been morning,i still have no doubts,that we would have killed a coyote.

I'm not one that likes to brag about how well i am at immitating coyote language..But it was the first way i learned to call coyotes,-using distress sounds came later.

To late to put the pamper on,-the shit already hit the ground...Damn,i'm still mad at myself for that.

Thanks,Byron...i needed that LOL
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on November 06, 2005, 04:05 PM:
 
Lance,when you cool off,i would like to hear you're story
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 06, 2005, 06:02 PM:
 
Melvin,

I don't know that I've cooled off any, but I am beginnig to see the humor in how fast things went bad. The whole experience has compelled me to write a unique article to at least assuage my anger over the entire ordeal, but I'll gladly give you a brief overview of the high points.

Third stand of the morning. Low 40's with some light frost in the shady spots. No wind to speak of. Walking in, I see what I think is a coyote I bumped at about three hundred yards crossing an opening in some cover. My luck on bumps isn't very good, but what the hell. I need to be home in a bit anyway and I drove a ways to get here.

While setting up, I see a nice bobcat come out of the same pocket of cover and wonder to myself what the hell is going on. I start with a short series of distress sounds. Didn't want to howl because, as Byron pointed out, howling only puts the process in slow motion and makes them cautious and I didn't really have time to wait them out. Within seconds, I have four coyotes inside the hundred yard mark with nuttin' b/n us but cool fresh morning air. Yep, four of the little bastards.

I like 'em up close, so I lip squeak the left- and right-most coyotes to about 60-65 yards with the other two in the middle and about twenty yards behind. While I'm trying to steady my shooting form, I'm wondering to myself why God never treats me to this while I have someone with me to witness the ordeal. What happens next was better off with no witnesses.

Rifle up. Crosshairs on the one on the right as he trots toward me. Three gruff woofs and he stops to gimme a profile look. I squeeze with deliberate control and that's where things went to hell. I heard the bullet hit, but it wasn't that macabre THWACK that you get when bullet shatters bone and the coyote didn't so much as go down as he did this crazy slump, twist and go back toward the deep grass. For the first few strides, his back was hunched and I'm sure I paunched him, but there was no blood anywhere to be found. At the first shot, the other three were scattering like quail and despite my best efforts, no one was staying around to check up on the first hit. I made three hail Mary's and failed to connect on any. All four made it onto posted ground where the owner allows NO ONE to go, regardless of the reason. As I sat there trying to rationalize what was an essentially irrationale situation, I heard a strange but distressed sounding wail from deep in that ravine. To say the least, I have been disgusted with myself for what happened today. I absolutely hate when I make a bad shot. I'd rather miss cleanly than set one to spinning or have them crawl off wounded like that.

I checked my rifle on the bench and it's still on. The fault is all mine on this one. I'll have to whack one well to feel good about my shooting again. Although I keep reminding myself of the old addage, "Don't let the same game beat you twice." Life goes on.
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on November 06, 2005, 07:10 PM:
 
Lance, i know exactly how you feel.Sorry it turned out that way for you..
We all have made bad shots at one time or another and can't figure it out,or find a good reason why

What makes that situation worse,is the land owner ...We want to be ethical hunters,but sometimes its not possible.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 07, 2005, 09:43 AM:
 
Dennis, why, in your opinion, do you think coyotes respond vocally to your lone howls.

Hello.. Helloo... Hellooo.... is anybody out there? Howl if you can hear me!

Dennis

[ November 07, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 08, 2005, 06:55 AM:
 
Can someone post where I can find studies or papers on a few things?

1 That transient and shuffling or dispersing coyotes are non-vocal.

2 Do transient and dispersing coyotes honor scent marks of other coyotes.

3 Do territorial alpha's defend their territory from transient and dispersing coyotes or are they tolerated to some degree. Will they tolerate mated pairs in their territory?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 08, 2005, 09:26 AM:
 
Greenside,
I have never seen any scientific studies concerning transient or dispersing coyotes. I am betting that these coyotes are not entirely non vocal, and I also am betting that they don't honor territorial scent markings. They have to find their own new territory somehow, and I think that howling is one way that they find their new home.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 08, 2005, 10:10 AM:
 
Dennis,

In the study entitled, "Howling by coyotes (Canis latrans): variation among social classes, seasons, and pack size" by Eric Gese and Robert Ruff, Canadian Journal of Zoology, vol. 76 (1998), pages 1037-1043, they observed 54 coyotes between 01/91 to 06/93 (2507 hours) in Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming.

Therein it is stated, "Among coyotes of different types of social organization (resident versus transient), members of resident packs initiated or participated in howling events, while transient individuals were never observed howling (n=51 hours of observation)."

Is this an absolute rule of thumb amongst all coyotes everywhere? I doubt it, but it's interesting to see, in this - the first study of this subject - that absolutely no vocalizing was observed in non-packing individuals. And this is where I base my position from and develop my strategies around it. Their study is much more comprehensive than any that I have done. So far, it's worked for me.

Do transients howl? I imagine so, but I'd be willing to bet that they learn or know to keep their mouths shut until such time as they feel confident that the resultant response from resident coyotes, if any, will lead to a dust up that they think they can win thus establishing their position in the hierarchy. Just a WAG.

As Wily is fond of pointing out, and about which I agree, this study was a snap shot in time of the behavior of this particular study group, but inasmuch as you might ask me to prove that they don't vocalize (to which I submit this study), I would challenge you to provide proof to the contrary beyond anecdotal one-time sightings. If and when a lot of you guys get responses, they do seem to be from multiple coyotes at one time (i.e., a pack) rather than just a lone coyote running his mouth off.

The rest of the study discusses vocalization rates in various levels of the heirarchy with alpha coyotes doing the most in all seasons, except for during pup-rearing when it has been hypothesized that they do so to avoid calling undue attention to the den sight.

And, again, as Wily say, the only ones that know are the yippers, and they ain't talking.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 08, 2005, 10:10 AM:
 
My guess is the transients are those ugly ones or lacking the social skills to charm the opposite sex. They may live the life forever, or they maybe get lucky? I also doubt that they are COMPLETELY nonvocal? But, there is no denying that an alpha pair is territorial so it doesn't make sense that the interloper would call attention to himself, and he can't help but not respect scent posts.

But, I think there is definitely studies and information on the subject.

Guys like Scott and Rob in MT and Higgins read that stuff and could tell you where you can eyeball it for yourself. I think some of it is available online, too?

One thing though. Just like here on the message boards, you still have to separate the pepper from the fly shit. I don't give the academic community a free pass, nor do I automatically reject everything they write.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 08, 2005, 11:27 AM:
 
Whew! That was close. Back in August of 93 when I went through the west entrance of Yellowstone, at sunrise, and did a little lone howling, Gese was already gone. I could have been an * in his abstract.

Dennis

[ November 08, 2005, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 08, 2005, 11:51 AM:
 
I refer the lone coyote ie;[homeless]as a "Nomad" or a "Tresspasser" That being said...

I believe as many of you. That when they are on "marked territory". They move, with caution in mind[They know their tresspassing], quickly as well. So I believe they will "mostly" try to go un-noticed by the locals. If the locals have already, been detected by the Nomad.

Do or will the Nomad howl on this foreign land? I say, yes. But limited, & for particular reason's.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on November 08, 2005, 01:33 PM:
 
What if all the coyotes in an area are nomadic?

If there's enough land, and resources (food, water etc.) and a low population density, does a coyote need a territory (other than when denned up)?
What about the risk of other predators, farther up the food chain, if a coyote puts down roots doesn't he increase this risk?

I don't believe howling, whether for locating or calling, is beneficial in my neck of the woods.
If I can't smell sagebrush, my howler is worthless.

Krusty
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 08, 2005, 05:46 PM:
 
Interesting questions Krusty.

I believe a widower, from an alpha pr. Who have a marked territory. Will not leave, unless driven off, for various reasons.

Studies are [generally] pretty good/accurate info [perhaps some biased]. But much is left out or not considered. Also, I question some of the "Data" collected. As [ALL] data can not be possibly obtained or interpreted by "Man" [as a matter of fact].

It's the [non-matter of fact]. That draws my attention the most.

[ November 08, 2005, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on November 08, 2005, 07:58 PM:
 
2Dogs,

I'd say cougar piss, on the last place I pissed (trying to mark my territory), or a huge pile of bear crap at my favorite poopin' spot, would be good reasons to stay on the move.

I dunno why the coyotes don't make much noise around here, but they don't.

"Only the yippers know, and they ain't sayin'."

Krusty
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on November 08, 2005, 09:47 PM:
 

quote:

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2 Do transient and dispersing coyotes honor scent marks of other coyotes.

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I can't offer you a written study, but you can ask any coyote trapper around.

Hell yes!

I just pulled my two coyote traps tonight. I've caught two YOY coyotes in the last 3 days. Both were caught on Coyote gland, and 6 year old coyote piss.

They may not have marked over a strange coyotes marking, but they got their noses with in a few inches to check it out.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on November 09, 2005, 05:47 AM:
 
I wasn't a hardcore trapper, nor the best. I quit trapping after this one coyote. Managed to pull out of my #2 Coil Spring. He/she, would come back every couple days.

Just to dig up my sets. Then leave a Brown pile right on top of, one of my traps .

Low price's, ice-storms & poo-piles. Convinced me, to just stick to hunting. Never looked back
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 09, 2005, 07:18 AM:
 
Tim, I've heard or read in the past that dispersing coyotes are usually on a straight line of travel. Meaning that if they bumped into another coyotes scent post that they would probably ignore it and keep traveling on that straight line right through that other coyotes territory, rather than make an effort to go around it. So if you were to abide by the theory that dispersing coyotes are non-vocal, in order to avoid confrontation with other coyotes, why would he intentionally travel though another coyotes territory, knowing full well that he might run into another coyote or group of coyotes?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on November 09, 2005, 08:31 AM:
 
"I just pulled my two coyote traps tonight. I've caught two YOY coyotes in the last 3 days. Both were caught on Coyote gland, and 6 year old coyote piss."
---------
Tim,
You have been reading my mind. I wondered how many trappers really thought they were only catching the alpha pair in their scent post sets. Shucks, I think that almost every coyote that finds a urine post is gonna pee on it.

Greenside,
I think that a dispersing coyote will be less vocal than the resident coyotes, but will likely howl after travelling several miles just to see if that area holds coyotes.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 09, 2005, 12:31 PM:
 
How are howling techniques effected by the mating season starting in January?

Does the lonesome howl have the same response rate as say right now, or is it better or worse during the mating season?

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on November 09, 2005, 01:06 PM:
 
Peak howling times are during the dispersal and breeding season. But in your area as soon as the corn gets to about 6ft or over(not much after the forth of july) the alphas' move the litters into the corn fields. You'll find that the pups can be real suckers for a lone howl at that time.

Dennis

[ November 09, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on November 09, 2005, 01:27 PM:
 
Dennis, when are the dispersal and breeding times for the midwest (Iowa)?

I thought coyote breeding started in January, but I've been known to be wrong, LOL.... Alot of misinformation out there, it's nice to come here and get set straight.

later,
scruffy
 

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