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Topic: The New Huntmastersbbs!2: Locator vs. Interrogation howl
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted November 01, 2005 06:40 PM
Locator vs Interrogation. What's the difference in sound and meaning? Is one more threatening or aggressive than the other? To me the locator is an extra long howl that goes up and then tapers off. The interrogation is shorter maybe? When is the proper time to use one versus the other? Help me out here guys. Thanks, Todd.
[ June 08, 2006, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Rich Higgins
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posted November 01, 2005 07:07 PM
Todd, where did you see or get the names for those howls? Wasn't the WT was it?
Why I ask is because you described two types of lone howls, whereas a locator is generally a group yip-howl such as the JS LOCATOR and an interrogation howl is a lone howl.
Coyotes generally approach a lone howl more often than responding vocally and they respond vocally to yip howls more often than they approach.
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted November 01, 2005 07:12 PM
Rich, if my memory serves me right, Randy Anderson talks about the interrogation howl on his tapes. Quite possibly even the locator, or lone howl might be what I am referring to....I think were on the same video. Sut I've slept since then, so straighten me out if that's possible. Thanks, Todd.
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JTBMO
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 01, 2005 07:23 PM
Rich,
Another ? along this line..
What's the difference between the lone howl and the female invitation howl?
What I've heard is that the lone howl is a slow rise, then a flat pitch that suddenly drops off at the end.
The female invitation howl goes up quickly then slowl drops down and fades away.
I've used both with similar results, and responses. Is there a difference between the two or just more subjective titling?
Baldknobber,
The lone howl, as Rich taught me, rarely elicits a vocal response in my agricultural area. In fact, the vast majority of the time, responders generally move to the downwind, congregate en masse, and move in as a group (2-5 coyotes). I've only had one instance where they responded to me with a howl, and it was a challenge bark.
In those istances where I've been on stand before daylight and a pack lights up with a group howl, I can generally get an approach if I get the chance to lone howl over their racket and am within 15-20 minutes of shooting light. I'll howl, listen to them stop abruptly then start yipping as they begin moving toward me. Get in postion watching the downwind and be ready to shoot as soon as the light allows. Often, they've been sitting there waiting for me using the cover to conceal their reconnoiter.
I've yet to elicit a vocal response offering a one-man yip howl. (one hand clapping? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ) but was witness to an amazing display of locator howling in Colorado where we had over a dozen coyotes answer from four or five different directions simultaneously. One thing I discussed wioth that caller and which was true that night was that too many guys howl to locate and leave if they don't get a response within 1 or 2 minutes. In reality, a nearby pack may take as long as 20 minutes to answer back, especially if they're spread out across their territory or home range and must trasvel to move to a more centrally located part of the alamo. Rich can offer much more specifics on this issue.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 01, 2005 08:04 PM
WE had some conversation along these lines a while back.
What Randy Anderson may describe as an "interrogation howl" another may say it's a female invitation, and a third would say the same sound is a domain howl. Maybe?
One thing is usually true, a lone howl, or perhaps a lost pup howl(?) will not get you a vocal response, so you are really making a mistake to be leaning against the truck for a couple minutes and then leaving because you expected an answer. You should be ready to kill a coyote if you use that howl, they won't answer you, but they could be right in front of you a lot sooner than you might expect.
Another point about strategy. If you are using a sound for locating coyotes, and you get a response; go get them. I believe it serves little purpose to locate a group of coyotes in the evening, intending to be there at first light. I do not find that they stay put well enough to accurately use the information six or eight hours later. They could be miles away....and probably are?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted November 02, 2005 03:41 AM
I set up on a stand last year. Started with a Lonehowl. As soon as I finished my howl a single coyote started barking then the pack started group howling and yiping right in front of me. They were around 150 yards out.
I worked those coyotes howling back and forth for well over an hr. Finaly got a Threat bark Howl from the male of the group, as we were howling at each other two other pack members sliped in on the down wind side of my stand, they didnt leave...lol...I had a down wind shooter!
Every once in awhile I will get a vocal responce from a lonehowl, but not often. I do get responces from just me yip howling though. Its nice when there are at least two guys with howlers though, but im alone most of the time when locating in the spring and summer.
Brent
[ November 02, 2005, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: keekee ]
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted November 02, 2005 05:21 AM
IMHO, Coyotes that vocally respond to a lone howl would've equally responded to a train whistle or siren at that instant. That "Winding up" sound will evoke sounds from dogs, coyotes, turkeys and owls at times. You could've finished it off with a rendition of TAPS and it wouldn't have mattered at the moment. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted November 02, 2005 05:39 AM
So Lance, if I understand you right, a lone howl or interrogation howl are the same thing. They are used to announce the presence of a coyote and illicits the territorial response from another coyote or pack of coyotes. Sometimes. But be ready and watch downwind. Or are they different with different meaning? Perhaps I shoul have titled this thread Lone Howl vs. Interrogation to be more correct in terminology. Todd
[ November 02, 2005, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
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JTBMO
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 02, 2005 06:12 AM
To me, yes. I'm not familiar with what a lot of guys call the interrogation howl. The rationale for my position is simple: transients and nomadic individuals are generally non-vocal, whereas all the goings on you hear are territorial packs or individuals either communicating with one another, or to other neighboring packs, as a means of maintaining spatial distribution, etc. When you lone howl, you are immediately recognized as someone the residents are unfamiliar with and they want to identify you before closing in. So, they move downwind to get your stink, meet up there with others in the family if they're available, and make their approach under the radar. Probably an oversimplification, but my interpretation nonetheless. I can't guarantee that they'll approach from downwind, but all of mine without exception either have, or have been headed there when I cut them off. And the howls aren't guaranteed to make them show as I've called over cover I knew held a coyote yet produced no results. When it works, it works well. When it doesn't, it's just like any other sound.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 02, 2005 07:24 AM
Baldknobber,
The coyote language idea is mostly a marketing tool. The most important thing in howling is to sound like a strange coyote in the area.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted November 02, 2005 11:58 AM
Todd and Lance,
the lone howl is simply a howl issued by a single coyote as opposed to a group howl which is two or more coyotes issuing lone howls together.
WT lists 33 vocalizations in their catalog, 18 of which are lone howls with names such as female territorial howl and female invitation howl and male dominion howl etc. etc.
Whether anyone can really identify the specific meaning of a howl just by hearing it is very doubtful. I cannot, and I hear them howl daily. I can recognize the assembly howl in the evening from the resident pach here at the house but it sounds different from the assembly howl that we heard from a pack in southern Az. last year. Individual modification to a universal vocalization.
Dr Lehner wrote:
"The large intra-individual variations of howls might obscure the large inter-individual differences among coyotes."
That means simply that there is so much difference in the way coyotes howl that the scientists really don't know if those differences are in the howls or in the way coyotes issue them or a combination of the two. Remember that the next time someone says they blew a female invitation howl or a male dominion howl.
Use the yip howl to locate and use a non-aggressive high pitched lone howl that winds down and tapers off to attract them. It's just that simple.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 02, 2005 01:23 PM
"That means simply that there is so much difference in the way coyotes howl that the scientists really don't know if those differences are in the howls or in the way coyotes issue them or a combination of the two. Remember that the next time someone says they blew a female invitation howl or a male dominion howl.
Use the yip howl to locate and use a non-aggressive high pitched lone howl that winds down and tapers off to attract them. It's just that simple."
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I agree with that statement. Anyone who is interested in howling coyotes to the gun should read this thread. It is likely the best advice on howling that you will ever see.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted November 02, 2005 01:29 PM
Is the female invitation howl just a coyote asking the neighbor to stop over for coffee? I believe thats what Bill Austin thought.
Dennis
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Melvin
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Member # 634
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posted November 02, 2005 02:19 PM
No Dennis, I think he thought it was for a little more than coffee ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 02, 2005 02:46 PM
Greenside,
Bill Austin didn't know for sure either.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 02, 2005 03:19 PM
Good summary, Rich.
Again, the point is to submit the sound of a strange coyote into the area to compel the resident coyotes to investigate. Doesn't matter if it's long and shortly tapered, or rise fast and drop down slowly. Just as long as it sounds like a howl. Higher pitch is better because it sounds more like a young or female coyote and will be non-threatening to the entire age spectrum.
To me, the incredibly interesting thing about coyote howling is not so much that they use the exact sound from region to region, but that the general sound invokes the same general response regardless of where is is offered. Anyone that fails to at least explore the merits of howling coyotes is really cheating themselves out of a great hunting experience. Then again, there are a lot of these tactics that seem to challenge some folks' willingness to step outside the box.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 75
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posted November 02, 2005 04:59 PM
The female invitation is a companionship seeking call...young males make invitation howls to...Bill Austin had a tape called companion seeking call and his female invitation tape..they both sound the same...two tapes same call = more sales..I agree with Rich Cronk lone howl,female invitation, companionship call all the same to me
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
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Rich Higgins
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posted November 02, 2005 06:04 PM
Lance, I agree with all of your post except the statement that it doesn't matter what kind of lone howl you use.
I am convinced that an alarm howl exists and it sounds very, very similar to the assembly howls that I have heard (and observed) Short, fast rise, flattens off and ends abruptly. I have never called in a coyote after that howl was issued and passed along and I have never been able to pull off an ugly cow after that howl. A worse effect than a warning bark or challenge howl. Subsequently I stay away from that type of howl while calling them in.
Perception of aggression is very important. So much so that Scott said that he doesn't even use barks preceding his howls because he believes some coyotes interpret them as aggressive, I agree.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted November 02, 2005 06:23 PM
arroooo...arrrrrooooo..yip.yip arrrrrroooooo.........................................................waaaaaa...waaaaa....waaaaaa...oww...owwww..owwww.
Convince me that its any harder than that!
Dennis
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 02, 2005 06:40 PM
Point well taken, Rich. Howling too short isn't much of a problem for me. I worry that I run them out too long. Looking forward to tweaking my method in CO.
FIFTEEN DAYS!!!!!!!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 02, 2005 06:54 PM
quote:
Convince me that its any harder than that!
Grasshopper, wise man say; simple things seldom are. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 02, 2005 07:01 PM
Dennis, the "what" is simply put. But can you as easily explain the "why" to someone new to the art? All of us do a lot of things while calling that seem simple and easy to do, but in truth, everything we do is the culmination of years of failure tempered by a smattering of success here and there. What we see as easy can be overwhelming to someone who lacks the benefits of seeing the roads we've traveled.
Some of us like to know why we do what we do. Thus, the run ons.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted November 02, 2005 09:53 PM
"Use the yip howl to locate and use a non-aggressive high pitched lone howl that winds down and tapers off to attract them. It's just that simple."
Very well put! I agree 100%
Rich,
I use puppy howls alot as well, and I no you do to, so do you think the puppy howls have the same effect of coyotes as a lone howl? I been using two puppy howls then an adult answer or just a little deep howl than the puppy howls and longer. It has been working very well for me on my stands. Whats you thoughts on the puppy howls?
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Rich Higgins
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posted November 03, 2005 07:29 AM
Brent, I use what I call a "lost puppy" howl at the beginning of all my howling series. It is a plaintive sounding howl, very high pitched that ends on an upward note, like a question. Apparently all predators consider it to be non-aggressive since I have video of 12 week old puppies coming to it, and fox and bobcat both come into distress calls after that howl. I follow it up with various other howls and vocalizations just to add to the mix. I don't believe that coyotes regard or consider vocalizations in specifics so much as in concepts, so I try to give them specific concepts to consider.
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2dogs
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posted November 03, 2005 08:05 AM
Good discussion guys, keep talkin ![[Cool]](cool.gif) .
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